The Matrix / Linda Danvers / Peter David Supergirl Retcon-gone?!

[Jkid099]

In today's final Crisis Counseling session, Dan Didio flat out said that the Matrix has been retconned out of existence. So does that mean like 10 years of 90s PAD Supergirl are gone? I desperately need to see what the heck the "new timeline" is to understand what they've done with all those stories ...

[NotSuper]

I'm pretty sure that both Matrix and Linda are gone from DCU history. Unless they retconned Linda's history to give her a non-Matrix related origin--but I seriously doubt that's the case.

[Lorendiac]

I figured all along that one way or another, after "Infinite Crisis" was over I would need to do a new edition of my "Timeline of First Appearances of Each Supergirl, Superwoman, etc." in order to catch up with any retcons they instituted. This particular retcon does not come as a huge surprise. After all, it neatly answers some criticisms I've made before, regarding the way Superman, upon meeting the current Kara Zor-El for the first time, did not mention Matrix, nor Linda, nor the Kara Zor-El of "Many Happy Returns" for that matter! Because of the Retcon Punch, I guess he had already forgotten any of those three ever existed! :)

And it's not even like this is the first time an editor has tried to get Matrix surgically removed from Superman's continuity. I am told that way back in the early 90s, Mike Carlin desperately wanted to do a sort of "quiet retcon" of Matrix Supergirl and simply never let anybody in any of the Superman titles refer to her again. So that for all practical purposes, she never would have existed! Someone -- I'm not sure who -- managed to talk him out of that, and Matrix returned to Earth during "Panic in the Sky" and ended up being seduced by Lex Luthor, but apparently Carlin went through a period where he really wanted the new policy to be "There is no Matrix Supergirl! Never was! Never will be!" Sooner or later someone was bound to try that all over again!

(I don't say this is the best idea I ever heard. I only say I am not surprised that it finally happened now that DC's "Supergirl Flavor of the Month" is the Jeph Loeb's Reboot Version.)

[NotSuper]

On a related note, does this mean that the entire pocket universe saga never happened? If so, that means that there's one less Zod in continuity (thank Rao) and it also means that Superman hasn't premeditatedly killed anyone (Doomsday was "killed" in the heat of battle).

[Lorendiac]

On a related note, does this mean that the entire pocket universe saga never happened? If so, that means that there's one less Zod in continuity (thank Rao) and it also means that Superman hasn't premeditatedly killed anyone (Doomsday was "killed" in the heat of battle).

I hadn't even stopped to think about that yet! But I suspect you're probably right! If there was no Matrix Supergirl, then there was probably no need for her native pocket universe either! Good thinking! :)

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I gather this will make the dozen or so rabid Peter David's Linda Danvers fans furious, but this makes a lot of sense. Why keep around Matrix, who is from a Pocket Universe that was only created to explain away an incarnation of the Legion that no longer exists? And, if you really needed to, you can still have the Linda Danvers stories, just minus the Matrix elements.

[Matt Algren]

I gather this will make the dozen or so rabid Peter David's Linda Danvers fans furious, but this makes a lot of sense. Why keep around Matrix, who is from a Pocket Universe that was only created to explain away an incarnation of the Legion that no longer exists? And, if you really needed to, you can still have the Linda Danvers stories, just minus the Matrix elements.
Actually, I'm kind of glad. It sort of preserves the stories so that upcoming/ongoing retcons don't even enter into the picture. We don't have to ask anymore whether something is in continuity or not.

It's kind of freeing when you think about it.

[Captain Jim]

It's kind of unfortunate in that some of those PAD stories were pretty good. I wouldn't mind so much them retconning them away if they had something better to offer, but so far, I have found the new Supergirl to be completely unappealing.

Question: Is the new/current Supergirl supposed to be the same one that died in the original Crisis, or has that character been retconned away too?

[protonik]

You guys are acting like this ruins the PAD run somehow when those stories are still right THERE in your longboxes waiting for you to reread them. They aren't ruined, altered or gone. Someone didn't come in and rewrite the dialogue in your comics or rip them up and say "you can't have them anymore".

Jason

[Lorendiac]

You guys are acting like this ruins the PAD run somehow when those stories are still right THERE in your longboxes waiting for you to reread them. They aren't ruined, altered or gone. Someone didn't come in and rewrite the dialogue in your comics or rip them up and say "you can't have them anymore".

Jason

Although I personally am not really upset about this (as I said, I wasn't even surprised when I got the news!), I do understand those who feel very unhappy. They don't just want to go back and read the same stories from the PAD run all over again. They know they can still do that anytime they feel like it!

But they had also hoped that one of these days they would get more stories about Linda Danvers, building upon what happened to her in the old PAD run. Not necessarily stories written by PAD. Not necessarily stories with her calling herself Supergirl again (nor even Superwoman, although I've seen that suggested!), but still the same character. Now all their hopes and dreams for her future are being smashed to pieces by the retcon that (apparently) means she never existed in the DCU after all!

[Deathstroke]

Once again a series I love gets ruined/retconned.

PAD's Supergirl will always be MY Supergirl.

[Sean Whitmore]

You gotta love Peter David's reaction, though:

Now I don't have to worry that Linda Danvers is going to be brought back, raped and murdered.


SEAN

[NotSuper]

I never cared for Matrix, but I did like Linda (I'll always prefer a Kryptonian Supergirl, though) and thought PAD did a good job with the character. So, even though this news doesn't really make me unhappy, I do kind of feel bad for Linda's hardcore fans. Like it's been said, every character is someone's favorite.

I've mentioned this before, but there is a way to keep Linda in continuity without any ties to Matrix. Basically, you have the spirit of Kara Zor-El (her spirit existed in the post-Crisis DCU, though no one remembered her, and she once helped out Deadman in a Christmas special) save Linda Danvers instead of Matrix. This starts the whole Earth-born Angel thing (and it makes more sense with a spirit rather than living protoplasm, don't you think?) and eventually Kara's spirit leaves Linda like Matrix did. This even has the added bonus of giving Linda more of a connection to the Supergirl legacy. And that means that there's only been two Supergirls in this continuity (Linda and Kara)--not counting the Kara from "Many Happy Returns" as she was an anomaly. Seems pretty simple to me, but I doubt DC will do anything like that.

As I've said, this doesn't really upset me, but I'd find a way to keep her in continuity if I were in charge. It's best to try to please the majority of your fanbase (within reason) if you run a comic company.

That being said, I will be happy if the pocket universe is erased from history. I never cared for it.

[Damo]

PAD said it best.

[mattx110]

i'd normally get all riled up about somethign like this, but really, there's been so many retcons and killings and random reboots recently, that is doesn't matter anymore. the issues are still out there to be read, so, all's good. i don't think peter david was gonna get another supergirl ongoing and hopefully he's got enough going on that he doesn't need to.

[dancj]

Question: Is the new/current Supergirl supposed to be the same one that died in the original Crisis, or has that character been retconned away too?

That character was retconned away about 20 years ago

[Agentum]

I too liked David's Supergirl run, it was almost a Vertigo title, the new Supergirl is all standard action for kids, and pretty stupid so far at least.

But i think it's good that David got 80 issues, he had room to tell a lot of storys, something that is not so usual with the rotating teams on all books.
Even if he did not get to finish it with the Supergirl team he wanted (i think it would have worked too).

[Jim Yost]

They're making SO many more problems for themselves - even if the official policy was that Matrix/Supergirl was a continuity glitch cause by the retcon punch... SHE WAS THERE! I mean, they don't have to ever have her come back, or anything like that, but I mean... honestly... why make it that she can never be remembered either? I just don't see how this helps. And Diana being the 1st WonderWoman? WHY OH WHY are they setting up another Hawkman problem when the retcon punch lets them sort it out of "mainstream" history all the while allowing for the stuff to be canon - she was there, but it was a glitch. Shame, she was nice. Eh, well, move on. Nope! Instead it's Matrix-who?

[Agentum]

Yes i think so, they can't make me lose my memory so why care, just forget about it and move on, as she was no real Kryptonian supergirl there is no problem to have her somewhere in limbo, as so many other characters.

They can't get a perfect working timeline anyway with so many new people writing the books and new ideas.

[Tennoarashi]

From Geoff's reaction, it seems that the Matrix was retconned away. But not Linda.

I'm back from Australia and New Zealand! It ruled! More on that later.

As for this...huh? Linda Danvers hasn't been retconned out at all.

Simple - Joe Chill killed Bruce Wayne's parents. Wonder Woman helped found the JLA. Superman did stuff before Metropolis...more to come on this.

Where'd you get that idea that Linda Danvers didn't exist?

Geoff

[NotSuper]

I guess I'll be the first to ask it: How can Linda Danvers exist without Matrix being in her origin?

Granted, a non-super Linda Danvers would exist without Matrix, but she needs someone to sacrifice themselves for her for the whole Earth-born Angel thing to occur. Or maybe he meant that Kara will adopt "Linda Danvers" as her human persona?

Did Geoff clarify how Linda could exist without Matrix or is it one of those unexplained things? Maybe someone could ask him more about it?

[Captain Jim]

That character was retconned away about 20 years ago

Well, yeah, way back then. :rolleyes: But lots of other stuff that supposedly was resolved twenty years ago has now been undone with IC. I wasn't sure where this stood.

So we're to believe that the current Supergirl is the first and only then?

[Forsaken_One]

Except I think Power Girl was revealed as Superman's cousin from Earth-2, which would make this the second Supergirl. Er, the first to be called that I guess but the second girl from Krypton who is super. But the first on this world. I think.

Meh, whatever. Retcons hurt my head.

[NotSuper]

Did Geoff elaborate on Linda still being in continuity? He did on the other changes, but what about this one? Or is DC still figuring this out?

It doesn't really matter to me whether she's still in continuity or not--I just hate not knowing.

[Matt]

I hope that Cir-El, the short lived Supergirl from a couple of years back, was likewise wiped out ... did anyone like that character?

[Alpha to Omega]

I hope that Cir-El, the short lived Supergirl from a couple of years back, was likewise wiped out ... did anyone like that character?

I did, but I like any Supergirl over Linda Danver.

[WatsonGlenn]

In today's final Crisis Counseling session, Dan Didio flat out said that the Matrix has been retconned out of existence. So does that mean like 10 years of 90s PAD Supergirl are gone? I desperately need to see what the heck the "new timeline" is to understand what they've done with all those stories ...

Has this been said in a comic book, because if it has not beeen said in a comic book then no matter what anyone said on a message board the Linda Danvers Supergirl is still out there in the DCU, IMO.

[Agentum]

Has this been said in a comic book, because if it has not beeen said in a comic book then no matter what anyone said on a message board the Linda Danvers Supergirl is still out there in the DCU, IMO.
But it doesn't matter, they have a new Supergirl now that they probably will wipe out from continuity in the future:)
And so far this version deserves it at least for the extremly bad writing in her own comics so far.

[Captain Jim]

Has this been said in a comic book, because if it has not beeen said in a comic book then no matter what anyone said on a message board the Linda Danvers Supergirl is still out there in the DCU, IMO.

What kind of strange logic is that that the head honcho at DC's statements online "don't count"?

[DonC]

Retcons hurt my head.



Yeah, me too. Hell, I'm not even a continuilty junkie and I don't understand why they did this.

[Lorendiac]

Has this been said in a comic book, because if it has not beeen said in a comic book then no matter what anyone said on a message board the Linda Danvers Supergirl is still out there in the DCU, IMO.

For what it's worth, Dan DiDio didn't say "There was never a Linda Danvers who called herself Supergirl." He only said that Matrix has been erased from existence. Various fans have already pointed out that this is not the exact same thing as saying "every single page of every single issue of Peter David's 'Supergirl' run has just been erased from history!"

Over on another forum, Geoff Johns has expressed surprise at people's beliefs that "Linda Danvers" has been retconned out of existence. However, to the best of my knowledge he has not yet commented on whether or not he was informed that Matrix is being retconned out of existence. So the details of just what has happened to which parts of the Post-Crisis Supergirl continuity are still very much up in the air.

[NotSuper]

Well, seeing as how nearly anything can happen now, maybe Linda Danvers does exist--but she's never been a super-hero. Maybe she's like Superboy-Prime's adopted parents now. Maybe she's just a regular human being living in Leesburg.

Or maybe Kara will adopt the Linda Danvers identity herself. But I wouldn't like that. I kind of like the fact that she doesn't have a secret identity.

Anyway, I'm sure Geoff knows about what Dan said now if he didn't before. But if we do see Linda again I doubt she'll be a major player or have her own title. I could see her coming back, though. Maybe in the role of a mentoring hero--like a Ted Grant.

[KET]

What kind of strange logic is that that the head honcho at DC's statements online "don't count"?

When he's basically 'shooting from the hip' ala Bill Jemas.

Besides, editors can eventually be replaced by publishers even faster than new character incarnations. :D

[PretenderNX01]

I saw Linda Danvers, she was at Wal-Mart hanging from a peg behind Superman and above Doomsday and Bizarro. :p

Actuall it only said "Supergirl" on the card but it was in Linda's outfit. It also comes with a comic book, that'll be confusing for anyone who buys the toy then picks up a new Supergirl comic.

[Forsaken_One]

I'm willing to bet that's actually "Supergirl" from the Diniverse, the animated world of Batman: The Animated Series, Superman, Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, and Batman Beyond. That Supergirl was the first to have that white T-shirt costume then Linda adopted it in the DCU proper later.

And actually in that universe she was Kara Zor-el and Superman's cousin. And then she changed outfits to something like the current Supergirl's outfit in the last season of JLU.

Then again pretty much everything is going to be confusing to someone who picks up a new comic without a grounding in the DC universe's little glitches. Good thing the numbers seem to say it almost never happens! :p

[BeastieRunner]

This is why I don't read DC much anymore.

[glennsim]

Assuming that Dideo is correct and Johns has just not yet been informed on this latest editorial decision...

I didn't dislike Linda. But DC is hyped about this new Supergirl, and the characters have pretty much been ignoring the fact that this is the third person walking around calling herself Supergirl, so this retcon doesn't surprise me, it just makes it official.

I'd suggest that every story Linda was a part of or related to is probably wiped out. Which when you consider that nearly every Superman story since 1986 is supposed to fit within the last 6 or 7 years of his life, there's room to lose a few without creating much in the way of gaping holes in his history. He's still been plenty busy.

Heck, I'll bet Luthor never died, was never cloned.

[Doom]

I hope that Cir-El, the short lived Supergirl from a couple of years back, was likewise wiped out ... did anyone like that character?

Well I liked her. I think the idea behind her character gives her a level of tragedy and pathos that's lacking from the other Supergirls. (IE the idea that no matter what she thinks, what she feels, she's not really Superman's daughter and she's not "real.") There's a bit of story potental in that alone.

Anyway, on topic I'm surprised no one mentioned how Loeb had a bunch of Super Girls (including Cir-El and Linda Danvers) in the last issue of Superman/Batman he put out.

[Lorendiac]

Anyway, on topic I'm surprised no one mentioned how Loeb had a bunch of Super Girls (including Cir-El and Linda Danvers) in the last issue of Superman/Batman he put out.

Which issue was that? I don't actually buy "Superman/Batman" in monthly installments. Nor in hardcover. So I'm always lagging far, far behind here.

The last I heard, vaguely, was that something (#24?) had come out, and there were lots of Supergirls and stuff in it, and also some hints suggesting that much of what has previously happened to Superman and Batman in previous issues has been the result of the loveable pranks of Mr. Mxyzptlk. I think #25 was supposed to be the "end of the story arc." Has it come out now? I never bother to look for S/B issues when I visit my LCS.

If it did come out, did it nail down the origins of all the Supergirls running around in it? Visitors from alternate timelines, impostors, magical facsimiles created by Mxyzptlk, whatever?

Once I have the S/B Supergirls straightened out, and also once DC finally expresses a coherent policy regarding Linda Danvers Supergirl (DiDio has only specifically mentioned Matrix so far), it will definitely be time for a new edition of my "Timeline of First Appearances of each Supergirl, Superwoman, Etc." Especially since at the very end of each draft of the Timeline, I try to list all relevant characters who have ever appeared in any story that was supposedly "in continuity" at the time, and what their current status is in continuity. I'm still waiting for someone to clarify a few things for us about the Post-IC continuity before I can commit myself on the subject of which Post-Crisis Supergirls (and Superwomen, and so forth) are "still" in continuity today.

[Dustin Griffin]

The S/B issue features all the Supergirls joining together under a leader (guess who) to fight against (I think) The Maximums (The Ultimates). They look awesome with Ed McGuiness's art. That book is a lot of fun and I always look forward to it when it decides to come out.


But who can fault the delays? it hasnt been an easy go of it for Loeb lately. :(

[Lorendiac]

It finally occurred to me to look at lists of coming attractions on DC's own website. Apparently "Superman/Batman #25" is currently scheduled for May 17. Eight more days; then maybe I'll be able to lay my hands on new data for my Timeline!

Now if only someone would clear up the question of whether or not Linda Danvers Supergirl "still happened" in the history of the Post-IC DCU . . .

[dancj]

Heck, I'll bet Luthor never died, was never cloned.

I've a feeling you're right about that. I think the whole fat lex luthor is gone from history

Dan

[Andy S.]

On a related note, does this mean that the entire pocket universe saga never happened? If so, that means that there's one less Zod in continuity (thank Rao) and it also means that Superman hasn't premeditatedly killed anyone (Doomsday was "killed" in the heat of battle).


Whoa. That is wild. If the whole pocket universe thing never happened, then as you said Supes never killed anybody. Also, he never would have been exiled into space for the guilt he felt after doing so. And if he never went out into space, then how did he meet Mongul? Or the Eradictator (who played a large part in the Return of Superman story)? There is a ton of continuity that is affected by mucking with the MOS and after Byrne stories.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Whoa. That is wild. If the whole pocket universe thing never happened, then as you said Supes never killed anybody. Also, he never would have been exiled into space for the guilt he felt after doing so. And if he never went out into space, then how did he meet Mongul? Or the Eradictator (who played a large part in the Return of Superman story)? There is a ton of continuity that is affected by mucking with the MOS and after Byrne stories.

Superman could have met Mongul the way he originally did before the Byrne reboot and thus Alan Moore's "For The Man Who Has Everything" can be in continuity again. Y'know, that classic Superman story that was retconed away for 20 years but is still considered one of the best Superman stories of all time?

The point is that mucking with continuity doesn't mean squat in the long run. Whether or not a story is in or out of continuity has no bearing on how good a story it is. So, in the end, who really cares?

The past adventures of Superman are always going to be somewhat vague. And the only time it really matters is when a story uses past continuity to create a new story.

[Andy S.]

Superman could have met Mongul the way he originally did before the Byrne reboot and thus Alan Moore's "For The Man Who Has Everything" can be in continuity again. Y'know, that classic Superman story that was retconed away for 20 years but is still considered one of the best Superman stories of all time?

The point is that mucking with continuity doesn't mean squat in the long run. Whether or not a story is in or out of continuity has no bearing on how good a story it is. So, in the end, who really cares?
.

No need to be snarky. I wasn't really complaining about anything, just pointing out that for readers who may be more familiar with the post-Crisis Supes stories (like myself), this puts a few things into question. It just seems weird to think about Supes not doing alot of the stuff I read about when I was a kid. But, not a big deal.

And I still haven't read that Alan Moore story.:o I need to make it a point to do so.

[NotSuper]

And I still haven't read that Alan Moore story.:o I need to make it a point to do so.
You should. It's a really great story that lets you get inside Superman's head. You can find in the Across the Universe: The DC Universe Stories of Alan Moore.

[Andy S.]

You should. It's a really great story that lets you get inside Superman's head. You can find in the Across the Universe: The DC Universe Stories of Alan Moore.

Yeah, that trade is definitely on my want list. Another Alan Moore Superman story I enjoyed in there was the one where he fought Swamp Thing because he was infected with a kryptonian fungus.

[glennsim]

No need to be snarky. I wasn't really complaining about anything, just pointing out that for readers who may be more familiar with the post-Crisis Supes stories (like myself), this puts a few things into question. It just seems weird to think about Supes not doing alot of the stuff I read about when I was a kid. But, not a big deal.

And I still haven't read that Alan Moore story.:o I need to make it a point to do so.

As much as I tend to hate for a comic to tell me "what you thought you knew was wrong - this is what really happened", in this particular case, with all of the history of New Earth being potentially changed, I don't mind as much, because everything is starting from scratch. It's not that everything I know is wrong, I clearly just don't know anything.

(just ask anybody who knows me...)

[NotSuper]

As much as I tend to hate for a comic to tell me "what you thought you knew was wrong - this is what really happened", in this particular case, with all of the history of New Earth being potentially changed, I don't mind as much, because everything is starting from scratch. It's not that everything I know is wrong, I clearly just don't know anything.

(just ask anybody who knows me...)
It's pretty much the same thing that happened with the pre-Crisis fans: much of pre-IC history is still intact, but much has also changed. There may have been a Superboy who was a young Superman, the Creeper apparently hasn't debuted yet, Wonder Woman helped found the JLA, Joe Chill was caught, ect al. I'm pretty sure we'll understand most of the history soon.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

No need to be snarky. I wasn't really complaining about anything, just pointing out that for readers who may be more familiar with the post-Crisis Supes stories (like myself), this puts a few things into question. It just seems weird to think about Supes not doing alot of the stuff I read about when I was a kid. But, not a big deal.

And I still haven't read that Alan Moore story.:o I need to make it a point to do so.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be snarky, just pointing out that past continuity really isn't as important as the fans like to believe it is. The situation you're in now is the same situation pre-Crisis Supes fans were in 20 years ago and will no doubt be the same situation post-IC Supes fans will be in 20 years from now.

Basically, welcome to the club.

[dancj]

Whoa. That is wild. If the whole pocket universe thing never happened, then as you said Supes never killed anybody. Also, he never would have been exiled into space for the guilt he felt after doing so. And if he never went out into space, then how did he meet Mongul? Or the Eradictator (who played a large part in the Return of Superman story)? There is a ton of continuity that is affected by mucking with the MOS and after Byrne stories.

More likely the pocket universe thing did happen, but not how we remember it - and without Matrix. Either that or that didn't happen, but the stuff that followed happenned, but slightly differently.

Dan

[NotSuper]

More likely the pocket universe thing did happen, but not how we remember it - and without Matrix. Either that or that didn't happen, but the stuff that followed happenned, but slightly differently.
I hope DC just ditches the pocket universe history and comes up with an alternate way to get Superman to leave Earth and such. They need to eliminate all the different past Zods that they can.

I wonder, does anyone think it's possible that the Russian Zod has been erased from history as well?

[Agentum]

But really, the 80 books is still out there to read, but it's a lot of really bad crossovers destroying the story, 90s was not all bad.

I think the firs mini series with Matrix was not that intresting, only when Peter David started his run i liked that Supergirl and really he throw out a lot of what comes out of the mini series.

If the current version of Supergirl continues read like a early 90s slugfest book i can't see it reaching anywhere near 80 issues:)
But people is known to read junk and like it so....:D

[Patient Boy]

You should. It's a really great story that lets you get inside Superman's head. You can find in the Across the Universe: The DC Universe Stories of Alan Moore.

Off-topic...

What ticks me off is that I own both Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow and the first DCU Alan Moore collection. I only want to get the new one for the Killing Joke, especially since it seems that the original is no longer in print.

[Kara Zor El]

another thing Matrix did was give Clark kent an alib for being trapped under some reckage all the time superman was dead. She changed into Superman and pretended to fee Clark and they were both photographed together and it made front page of the Planet.
Now when you go back and read stories like Death of Superman and the Funeral for a Friend and Reign of the Superman stories, which all still happened you are reading the wrong version and ofg course the new version doesn't exist and I doubt DC are going to republish them with Matrix replaced by another simmilar character.

[Rik Levins]

another thing Matrix did was give Clark kent an alib for being trapped under some reckage all the time superman was dead. She changed into Superman and pretended to fee Clark and they were both photographed together and it made front page of the Planet.

They can always retcon that into being the Martian Manhunter. Or...who was the shape-changer who impersonated Superman during the Krisis of the Krimson Kryptonite storyline...?

[glennsim]

Sorry, wasn't trying to be snarky, just pointing out that past continuity really isn't as important as the fans like to believe it is. The situation you're in now is the same situation pre-Crisis Supes fans were in 20 years ago and will no doubt be the same situation post-IC Supes fans will be in 20 years from now.

Basically, welcome to the club.

For some reason, maybe it's just experience, I find myself seeing this one differently than last time. Last time, it was "everything happened unless we tell you it didn't", this time it seems more like "nothing happened unless we tell you it did". I guess I feel that way because of the nice solid break we have with 52 and OYL this time.

[SuperManny]

They can always retcon that into being the Martian Manhunter. Or...who was the shape-changer who impersonated Superman during the Krisis of the Krimson Kryptonite storyline...?

That was Starman Will Payton, who wasn't around for the Return of Superman.

*misses PAD's Supergirl, still*

[Nate Grey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Danvers#Erased_From_History

"According to an interview with Newsarama, following the events of Infinite Crisis, the Matrix Supergirl was wiped from existence. The full ramifications of this are currently unknown."

IF that's true...Matrix was no longer Supergirl when she merged with Twilight. I'm wondering if they mean Matrix AND Linda, or one or the other. I'm guessing the latter to avoid confusion...

[Agentum]

But be reminded of that wikipedia can be written by anyone.

[Nate Grey]

But be reminded of that wikipedia can be written by anyone.

Exactly, hence my "IF" and asking it here. :D

[dancj]

another thing Matrix did was give Clark kent an alib for being trapped under some reckage all the time superman was dead.

I thought that was Starman. Matrix does seem more likely though

EDIT - Oops - SuperManny just confirmed it. Nothing to see here

[Kara Zor El]

I thought that was Starman. Matrix does seem more likely though

EDIT - Oops - SuperManny just confirmed it. Nothing to see here
No it was definately Matrix.

Someone suggested it be retconned to Martian Manhunter but Martian Manhunter was in disguise as someone else at that time. What was his name again?

It's a strange one this. They get rid of me because they won't Kal-El to be the only surviving Kryptonian. But they still want a Supergirl so they come up with Matrix because they know that they'll never, ever bring me back. Then they bring me back and try and pretend Matrix never existed.
That's nuts. It's was a mistake to bring Matrix into continuity if years down the line your going to bring me back. You have to live with your mistakes I say and have both. In fact Matrix coming back and seeing the real deal at work and giving up to work on the till at Kwik Save would have been a good story!

[SuperManny]

No it was definately Matrix.


Yeah, sorry dancj, Kara Zor El is right. I was confirming Rik's question about the story "Krisis of the Krimson Kryptonite", where Starman Will Payton shapeshifts into Superman to throw a surprised Luthor off (while Superman was powerless).

Boy, it must be awesome to have shapeshifting friends :)

[Rik Levins]

Ah, yes, Starman. Thanks for the info, Manny.

Of course it was originally Matrix who impersonated Clark, but if they are going to retroactively change history so that she didn't exist, it's not that much of a stretch to mess with the timeline a little bit more and drop in J'onn or Starman.

Kara, your tagline made me spit Diet Coke out of my nose.

However, as Bill Black once mentioned to me, super-heroines don't get periods...they get exclamation points.

[Lorendiac]

No it was definately Matrix.

Someone suggested it be retconned to Martian Manhunter but Martian Manhunter was in disguise as someone else at that time. What was his name again?

In the stories reprinted in "The Death of Superman" TPB, there was this costumed guy who looked African-American and called himself Bloodwynd and claimed to be empowered by the spirits of the dead. (Of course, anyone can say that!) He was part of the Justice League team that fought Doomsday; most of them getting hospitalized as a result (but not him). Later, it turned out to be the Martian Manhunter.

Now, I'm not absolutely sure, but I think that mystery may have been already resolved by the time Superman was back to normal and staged a rescue of "Clark Kent" who had been alive, but cut off from the outside world, in a basement underneath a pile of rubble in Metropolis for the last several weeks after the Superman/Doomsday showdown in the middle of town.

[SuperManny]

Now, I'm not absolutely sure, but I think that mystery may have been already resolved by the time Superman was back to normal and staged a rescue of "Clark Kent" who had been alive.....

Yeap, Bloodwynd became a real hero a few issues later (while Superman was 'dead'). It turns out, as memory serves, that MM was imitating him all this time while he was trapped in some sort of crystal dimension. The Justice League rescued him, and he became a hero or sentinel of magic. We should have seen him in the latest Day of Vengeance story arc, where all the magic users gather.

http://www.dcuguide.com/who.php?name=bloodwynd

http://www.rochestergroove.com/calvin/bloodwynd/bloodwyndbody1.JPG

At least, I don't remember seeing him lately. :(

[glennsim]

That's nuts. It's was a mistake to bring Matrix into continuity if years down the line your going to bring me back.

How could they know what they were going to do years down the line?

[Lorendiac]

How could they know what they were going to do years down the line?

Well, one argument would be that they should have already decided whether or not they even wanted to keep open the remote possibility of bringing back Kara Zor-El at some later date. If they did think that might even be remotely feasible in another 15 or 20 years, then (according to this same line of argument) they should have not confused the issue by creating "non-Kara" Supergirl characters in the interim, because that would mean that if they did bring Kara back someday, instead of still being the "first" Supergirl heroine, she'd be the fourth or fifth or something in "modern continuity."

On the other hand, if they absolutely positively knew for a fact that they would never bring Kara Zor-El back, then they should have stuck to their guns in the face of temptation, even when Jeph Loeb suggested doing it in the pages of his "Superman/Batman" title.

(The above two paragraphs are not what I personally believe with all my heart and soul. They merely outline one possible line of argument.)

Of course, a different perspective is to remember that the people who were making the decision to kill off Kara Zor-El in 1985, and to then let Byrne drag in Matrix Supergirl a couple of years later, weren't all the same people who would have given Jeph Loeb the green light to drag his own version of Kara Zor-El onstage almost two decades later. So it wasn't just a question, in the mid-80s, of "Will WE ever want to restore Kara Zor-El to Superman's continuity?" but the much trickier question of "Will our distant successors, whoever they turn out to be, want to do so?"

And of course there was really no way to know. Policies can fluctuate at the drop of a hat. For what it's worth, I've heard that Superman editor Mike Carlin, in the early 90s, wanted to "quietly erase" Matrix Supergirl from continuity by sweeping her under the rug and simply never letting anybody mention her in dialogue again. Someone talked him out of it, evidently, but it shows how policy can change wildly according to the whims of a particular editor.

A few weeks ago I saw someone on DC's own boards making the bold assertion that, as he analyzes it, recent developments in the lives of Hal Jordan and Kyle Rayner "must have been" planned all along, as far back as "Emerald Twilight" in late '93. Hal going nuts, calling himself Parallax, Zero Hour, Final Night, Spectre Hal, the events of the "Rebirth" miniseries, Kyle finally changing to be the new "Ion" on a regular basis, etc. -- he felt absolutely certain that all this was envisioned back in 1993 as part of a Master Plan.

I just couldn't see it. Given how many different editors and writers have been involved in telling stories about Hal and/or Kyle since then, I just couldn't see how they could possibly have all been faithfully, even slavishly, following some sort of Long-Range Master Plan laid down in 1993 and considered valid ever since. The very idea that DC knows what it's going to do a decade or so in advance was impossible for me to swallow. Two decades in advance? Even less credible! ;)

I tend to agree with glennsim that extrapolating the future that far in advance, regarding unknown people who will someday be making the big policy decisions themselves about Supergirl, is a pretty hopeless effort.

[Jade_GL]

I'm willing to bet that's actually "Supergirl" from the Diniverse, the animated world of Batman: The Animated Series, Superman, Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, and Batman Beyond. That Supergirl was the first to have that white T-shirt costume then Linda adopted it in the DCU proper later.

And actually in that universe she was Kara Zor-el and Superman's cousin. And then she changed outfits to something like the current Supergirl's outfit in the last season of JLU.

Then again pretty much everything is going to be confusing to someone who picks up a new comic without a grounding in the DC universe's little glitches. Good thing the numbers seem to say it almost never happens! :p

Actually, I don't mean to be nitpicky, but the Superman TAS version of Supergirl was named Kara In-Ze. She was not a Kryptonian per se, but instead from the planet Argo (Argo City anyone?) the *sister world* of Krypton. Of course, when Krypton exploded, Argo was affected and it's orbit was thrown off, making it get progressively colder. Kara was put into suspended animation as her planet slowly died, unlike the quick cataclysm that was the destruction of Krypton.

She is the last survivor of her planet, much like Superman is of his. In her first appearance, a three part episode, Professor Hamilton says that she is Superman's *cousin* but it is more of a metaphorical meaning in that they aren't really blood relatives, but instead closely related species that have evolved to be slightly different over time. This is why, in the cartoon, Supergirl has a higher tolerance to Kryptonite, because of the slight difference between Argosians (not sure if this is the exact right term) and Kryptonians.

So the Supergirl on the JLU toon is actually not related to Superman through blood at all, but instead in a metaphorical way. I actually really liked the take that they had on Supergirl's origin, making her different enough to be her own character and have her own past, but also to be connected enough to the Superman mythos to justify her wearing the S and being called Superman's family.

[Kara Zor El]

How could they know what they were going to do years down the line?

They can't but we have an ongoing continuity here. You either have to adear to it, start again with a completely fresh continuity, or do the retcon punch thing, but then if you do the retcon, you should arguably republish all the stories that have changed, with the changes in them and they should be bloody free. Now that's obviously impossible but morally correct.

[Kara Zor El]

Kara, your tagline made me spit Diet Coke out of my nose.

He He! that stuff's bad for you!

[shyguy]

I agree with PAD. This is just one more of my favorite characters that I do'nt have to worry about being ruined during the next Big Event.

[Kid Monster]

I hope that Cir-El, the short lived Supergirl from a couple of years back, was likewise wiped out ... did anyone like that character?

I did, but I have a weird sexual thing for plucky tough girls with short black hair.

Her costume was slick, too.

[Damo]

I hope that Cir-El, the short lived Supergirl from a couple of years back, was likewise wiped out ... did anyone like that character?

I did. She was a scrapper.

[dupersuper]

I don't agree with the decision at all, but I'm not going to let it bug me. As far as I'm concerned, MY collection continuity is MINE to decide. If I wanna leave in Matrix stories, DC continuity cops shan't barge in and force me to move them in with the elseworlds/non-dc stuff. For that matter, "For the man who had everything" works just fine if it comes in between final night (when Supes' fortress was rebuilt after Death of...) and Underworld Unleashed (when Mongul sr gets fried). Just tweak it like they did for the Justice League cartoon (Robin=Tim Drake, 90's fortress) and there ya go. This also explains why the plants'd be in the JLA trophy room in recent issues of Green Lantern. See how easy that was? They're YOUR books...arrange 'em however YOU want.

[Kara Zor El]

I don't agree with the decision at all, but I'm not going to let it bug me. As far as I'm concerned, MY collection continuity is MINE to decide. If I wanna leave in Matrix stories, DC continuity cops shan't barge in and force me to move them in with the elseworlds/non-dc stuff. For that matter, "For the man who had everything" works just fine if it comes in between final night (when Supes' fortress was rebuilt after Death of...) and Underworld Unleashed (when Mongul sr gets fried). Just tweak it like they did for the Justice League cartoon (Robin=Tim Drake, 90's fortress) and there ya go. This also explains why the plants'd be in the JLA trophy room in recent issues of Green Lantern. See how easy that was? They're YOUR books...arrange 'em however YOU want.
Actually I just had a bunch of guys dressed in black jump through my windows on the end of ropes, two of them pinned me down with some sort of force feild while the others went through my DC comic collection and cut out every panel and cover with Matrix on, and every speach bubble or narrative/thought box she was mentioned in. They then replaced everything with Tinkey Winkey the Teletubbie!!!!!!!

[dupersuper]

Those monsters...

[Agentum]

Actually I just had a bunch of guys dressed in black jump through my windows on the end of ropes, two of them pinned me down with some sort of force feild while the others went through my DC comic collection and cut out every panel and cover with Matrix on, and every speach bubble or narrative/thought box she was mentioned in. They then replaced everything with Tinkey Winkey the Teletubbie!!!!!!!

OMIGOD!! is this really true!!:confused:

[Green Arrow Jr.]

Well Linda was remembered by Superman & Powergirl so draw your own conclusion.

[Kara Zor El]

Well Linda was remembered by Superman & Powergirl so draw your own conclusion.

I tried but my pencil needs sharpening. Can I use one of your sharp arrows Juniour?

[Green Arrow Jr.]

I tried but my pencil needs sharpening. Can I use one of your sharp arrows Juniour?
Anytime my fair lady LOL.

[Ontir]

I posted this someplace, but can't find it now:

It would be interesting for PAD to return to Linda/Matrix, and re-define her as someone other than Supergirl, and take her forward. It would be interesting to see Supergirl/Power Girl/Matrix team-up.

[Nate Grey]

Well, couldn't Linda Danvers be Superwoman? That title's not in use, is it?

[OzBat!]

Ahh, but then you're not considering the possible ramifications of somebody two decades in the future deciding they want to let Kara graduate and upgrade to 'Superwoman'. And then she'll have to duke it out with the fifteen other candidates they've come up with in that time!

[Ontir]

I think just re-defining her as "Matrix," would do the trick. Give her a brand new look, maybe let her be a brunette, and go from there.

[Catman]

another thing Matrix did was give Clark kent an alib for being trapped under some reckage all the time superman was dead. She changed into Superman and pretended to fee Clark and they were both photographed together and it made front page of the Planet.
Now when you go back and read stories like Death of Superman and the Funeral for a Friend and Reign of the Superman stories, which all still happened you are reading the wrong version and ofg course the new version doesn't exist and I doubt DC are going to republish them with Matrix replaced by another simmilar character.

Thats pretty observant.

But I now have a headache. :o :(

[Ontir]

If DC doesn't want to use "Matrix" for Linda, why not play with the post-Crisis Supergirl/Legion connection, and call her Ultragirl?

[JulianPerez]

I think just re-defining her as "Matrix," would do the trick. Give her a brand new look, maybe let her be a brunette, and go from there.

This is actually a pretty great idea, in fact. Thinking back, I never had an objection to the character of Matrix, only the fact that she (or rather "it") was supposed to be Supergirl.

"What? That ain't Supergirl!"

If Matrix were to be given another identity or somesuch, she would benefit greatly, because they can emphasize, instead of how much like Kara the Matrix is, how different she/it is.

[Catman]

This is actually a pretty great idea, in fact. Thinking back, I never had an objection to the character of Matrix, only the fact that she (or rather "it") was supposed to be Supergirl.

"What? That ain't Supergirl!"

If Matrix were to be given another identity or somesuch, she would benefit greatly, because they can emphasize, instead of how much like Kara the Matrix is, how different she/it is.

I believe the idea at the time was basically just to keep Supes as the soul survivor of Krypton. That way, DC would be able to have it's "Supergirl" without actually having to say that she's also Kryptonian.

I actually liked the Matrix to a certain degree. And at the time I started collecting comics, I found her relationship with Lex fairly interesting in regard to seeing exactly how it would play out, and how it would ultimately end.

[Kara Zor El]

I believe the idea at the time was basically just to keep Supes as the soul survivor of Krypton. That way, DC would be able to have it's "Supergirl" without actually having to say that she's also Kryptonian.

I actually liked the Matrix to a certain degree. And at the time I started collecting comics, I found her relationship with Lex fairly interesting in regard to seeing exactly how it would play out, and how it would ultimately end.

Her relationship with Lex was great. Then when she found he was using her and cloning her, she went balistic on his ass!
Remember the punch she took of Doomsday? It made her revert to crude protoplasm.
I liked her first meeting with Superboy too.
There was something slightly tragic about her character. The fact that she had been created to save a World and failed. she was a failed Superman who once defeated felt more comfertable as a woman. There is something to read into that.

[Ontir]

I don't recall her having been "Superman." IIRC, Lex cloned her from Lana Lang's DNA in the PU, which is why she was female. He couldn't clone from Superboy, because he was gone, neccessitating a replacement. To empower her, he took the shards of Superboy's Legion statues, which is why she could generalte heat like Sunboy, become invisible like Invisible Kid, and change shape like Chameleon Boy, etc. Byrne said he'd origninally intended this story to be the post-Crisis origin for Power Girl, because he wasn't going to re-introduce Suerpgirl at all. That's why she was found naked in Antarctica, but Roy Thomas was continuing to use PG in Infinity Inc., and he had to shift to Supergirl.

She was a great tragic heroine, though.

[Catman]

Her relationship with Lex was great. Then when she found he was using her and cloning her, she went balistic on his ass!
Remember the punch she took of Doomsday? It made her revert to crude protoplasm.

Oh yeah! Those two moments were pretty great. I remember being somewhat shocked when I turned the page to see Doomsday hit Supergirl, and basically causing her face to look like it fell into a cheese dip back in 1957 way back in the day. Sure. I knew this wasnt really Superman's cousin, but to me it added abit to the storyline of the "Death of Superman". Too bad it's now been Retcon punched out by Superboy Prime. :(


I liked her first meeting with Superboy too.

Yeah that was pretty cool. I especially liked the cover of that issue, with Superboy kinda looking like, "Huh? Wow!". :)

There was something slightly tragic about her character. The fact that she had been created to save a World and failed. she was a failed Superman who once defeated felt more comfertable as a woman. There is something to read into that.

Exactly. The Matrix wasnt a character that didnt have some depth to it. It wasnt like the potential wasnt there or anything. Apparently, it just didnt ever really pan out the way DC may have hoped at one point in time.

[Catman]

I don't recall her having been "Superman." IIRC, Lex cloned her from Lana Lang's DNA in the PU, which is why she was female. He couldn't clone from Superboy, because he was gone, neccessitating a replacement. To empower her, he took the shards of Superboy's Legion statues, which is why she could generalte heat like Sunboy, become invisible like Invisible Kid, and change shape like Chameleon Boy, etc. Byrne said he'd origninally intended this story to be the post-Crisis origin for Power Girl, because he wasn't going to re-introduce Suerpgirl at all. That's why she was found naked in Antarctica, but Roy Thomas was continuing to use PG in Infinity Inc., and he had to shift to Supergirl.

She was a great tragic heroine, though.

I believe she took the role of "Superman" once. And this was right after Superman exiled himself into space for killing the Kryptonian villians that threatened his universe. The Matrix soonafter became Superman's replacement in Metropolis, and it was only until Superman returned with the Eradicator (who somehow convinced Matrix that she was indeed Superman) that Superman found himself fighting Matrix in her Superman form.

After the battle, she deemed herself a risk and decided to explore space, but was brought back to help fight off Braniac not all that long afterwards.

[Ontir]

OK, but that was after, as opposed to her becoming Supergirl, because she couldn't cut it as SuperMAN in the PU.

[Kara Zor El]

I don't recall her having been "Superman." IIRC, Lex cloned her from Lana Lang's DNA in the PU, which is why she was female. He couldn't clone from Superboy, because he was gone, neccessitating a replacement. To empower her, he took the shards of Superboy's Legion statues, which is why she could generalte heat like Sunboy, become invisible like Invisible Kid, and change shape like Chameleon Boy, etc. Byrne said he'd origninally intended this story to be the post-Crisis origin for Power Girl, because he wasn't going to re-introduce Suerpgirl at all. That's why she was found naked in Antarctica, but Roy Thomas was continuing to use PG in Infinity Inc., and he had to shift to Supergirl.

She was a great tragic heroine, though.

I stated when she was Superman a bit wrong. But other than that everthing stands. You just like biting my ass. ;)

[Ontir]

There's an extra charge for that! :evilsmile

[Catman]

OK, but that was after, as opposed to her becoming Supergirl, because she couldn't cut it as SuperMAN in the PU.

Yup.

It was after. :D

[superphil]

have you guys read 52 # 7

there's a picture of supergirl (matrix) in the "history of the DCU". she was there for zero hour, so she's must still be in continuity. hopefully, we'll see linda soon again. either as support character in supergirl (or any other book) or as "superwoman" :)

[Lorendiac]

have you guys read 52 # 7

there's a picture of supergirl (matrix) in the "history of the DCU". she was there for zero hour, so she's must still be in continuity. hopefully, we'll see linda soon again. either as support character in supergirl (or any other book) or as "superwoman" :)

It's nitpicking time! :)

Bear with me here. I have not been reading 52 at all. But I have a question, just to prove that I can split hairs and pick nits with the best of them (in case there was ever any doubt!).

Does the text in the "History of the DCU" installment in "52 #7" specifically name this "Supergirl" as "Matrix"? Or do we only see an image of a blond girl in a red-and-blue costume, whom readers immediately assume to be Matrix Supergirl, the protomatter lifeform from a pocket universe?

If the answer to the first question is "No" and the answer to the second question is "Yes," then it could be someone else entirely! After all, on the same day that "Infinite Crisis #7" came out, Dan DiDio said loud and clear that Matrix has been retconned out of existence, and Geoff Johns said loud and clear that Linda Danvers has not been retconned out. If they were both telling the truth, then perhaps Linda's own career as Supergirl has been extended backwards to let her be the "only Supergirl" who ever existed in stories set after COIE and before Jeph Loeb did a Kara Zor-El Reboot.

(A lot of similar retcons were done in the mid-to-late 80s after COIE, trying to "stretch" one character's career to fill in the sudden gaps left by someone else being "retconned out." For instance, the second Black Canary suddenly became a Founding Member of the original JLA, now that the Earth-1 Wonder Woman had not been there to be the token Female Founding Member herself!)

[superphil]

well, we don't know, if that supergirl was matrix or linda. but, what would be the point to remove the matrix-supergirl from contunity, but not linda?

the hole retcon thing would only make "sense" to make kara zor-el the first and only supergirl.

[Lorendiac]

well, we don't know, if that supergirl was matrix or linda. but, what would be the point to remove the matrix-supergirl from contunity, but not linda?

the hole retcon thing would only make "sense" to make kara zor-el the first and only supergirl.

I agree that it would seem simplest and "easier to understand" to completely erase all of the stories dealing with Matrix Supergirl, Matrix-merged-with-Linda Supergirl, and Linda Supergirl, all at once. But nobody at DC has clearly said that this is exactly what they are doing. If they are planning to make such a clean sweep, then why not find the courage to say so, in plain English, loud and clear, over and over until everyone gets the message?

And 20 years ago, it would have been simplest and "easier to understand" if the complete erasure of all of the Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman stories had included the complete erasure of all of the Pre-Crisis stories about her sidekick and protege, Donna Troy, the original Wonder Girl. But DC didn't do it that way. They left Donna Troy alone, pretty much. Then they reintroduced "the new Wonder Woman, a superhero nobody ever heard of before!" What this now meant was that Donna Troy had been Wonder Girl for several years (comic book time) before Diana of Themyscira came along and "copied" Donna's example by calling herself "Wonder Woman."

Did that make any sense? No! Was that the way DC insisted upon doing it for the next 20 years or so? Absolutely!

If DC could shoot itself in the foot so thoroughly after the old Crisis by trying to erase "all the history of this character over here, but not that other character who's always been very closely tied to the first character, etc." then I have full confidence in their ability to do it all over again where the various Supergirls are concerned! :)