IC#7 alters Bat's origin, reactions?...SPOILERS

[Choppa]

I haven't read the issue yet, but someone in the IC board said that Joe Chill is now confirmed as the killer of Bruce's parents.

What do you guys think of this?
Did you like it better when Bruce wasn't sure?
Do you think this is just an attempt to keep close continuity with the movie?
Do you think that this will even be touched on at all in the books?!

[Mister Intensity]

That's the way it should be if true.

Mister Intensity

[We R. Venom]

Is that true? I guess im really not as affected as a normal Batman fan cuz i havnt read the comic as much and woudlt really know what it means in continuity, is it really important that he does or doesnt know? Personally I dont mind. I guess he would have found out eventually, being the greatest detective ever or whathaveyou.

[Steve Brady]

Yes, Alex Luthor says that Batman chose to continue serving Gotham even after his parents' killer was caught.

I personally prefer them to be killed essentially by "crime" incarnate, but that's me. See BTAS for how to do this but not make Batman a paranoid psycho either.

I'll say the same thing I said after Batman Begins: I don't particularly care how they get him there, as long as he's Batman in the end.

[rfahey]

It's fine by me, and presumably brings Year 2 back into canon. I don't think it really affects him, other than maybe justifying their making him less paranoid and isolated.

[CMBMOOL]

It's fine by me, other than maybe justifying their making him less paranoid and isolated.


That is okay with me. :D

With him less paranoid and more conversating with his friends and allies then I cool with it. :p

[jam37wcc]

I don't see really affects anything I have only being reading the Batman books for about 5 or so years and I don't really remember any stories where the identity of his parents killer really mattered.

[Cash Lone]

I'd prefer if Batman didnt know who murdered his parents. Personally, I feel its more harrowing and emotionally charges Bruce to have a nameless/faceless killer that corrupted his innocence.

[colossus34]

Just becuase Bat's knows the man who pulled the trigger it doesn't change the fact that Bruce is never going to be sure who was really behind it...was it a random act of violence(most likeley) or somthing more planned and setup to take out the Wayne family. He'll alwyas be haunted by it and whether he was somehow responsible.

Anyhow, having it be Joe Chill makes it more grounded and believable.

[devinost]

Just becuase Bat's knows the man who pulled the trigger it doesn't change the fact that Bruce is never going to be sure who was really behind it...was it a random act of violence(most likeley) or somthing more planned and setup to take out the Wayne family. He'll alwyas be haunted by it and whether he was somehow responsible.

Anyhow, having it be Joe Chill makes it more grounded and believable.


Lou Moxon was behind it

[filthysize]

Depends. I don't mind Joe Chill being named. Hell, I don't even mind if they retooled the origin to fit in with Batman Begins.

What I do mind is if Year Two is considered canon. I've tried so hard to forget that POS....

[Chudy]

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/counseling7.html

Q: Should the headline in Crisis #6 be taken to mean that Joe Chill is the killer of Batman's parents again, as it had been before Zero Hour?

DD: That’s just one of the changes to found in the “New Earth.”

It was Dan Didios words.

[Leon Thomas]

I don't mind it. I can only assume it was done so that Batman can have some closure. He can be driven without being insanely driven. Recent Batman and Detective Comics show him more compassionate and human.

[Cash Lone]

Just becuase Bat's knows the man who pulled the trigger it doesn't change the fact that Bruce is never going to be sure who was really behind it...was it a random act of violence(most likeley) or somthing more planned and setup to take out the Wayne family. He'll alwyas be haunted by it and whether he was somehow responsible.

Anyhow, having it be Joe Chill makes it more grounded and believable.

While I agree that the murder of his parents has affected Bruce regardless, I disagree that naming the gunman is a wise decision. Theres an existental dread that comes w/out the closure of knowing who pulled the trigger. Forget about Chills reasons, just the absence of any resolution is something I believe drove Bruce to make the choices he made.

Also, knowing the gunmans name - Bruce is good enough of a Detective that he could figure out by the patterns of chills life what chills reasons for mugging and eventually murdering were.

[King Krypton]

Bill Finger said Joe Chill whacked Batman's parents. That's good enough for me. Besides, the "unnamed gunman" thing never really caught on.

Alas, most people still think the Joker was the guy who did it (which does have a poetic element to it, but it's still not the same). So really, letting Chill be the killer is hardly a problem. Most people assume the killer' identity is common knowledge, regardless of who it is.

[Generic Eric]

So does this mean that the year after Batman is a new Batman. I'm getting a feeling that Infinite Crisis has just retired Batman Prime, putting him in the old age home with Golden Age Batman and Silver Age Batman.

[AlistairCrane]

I don't like it at all. Batman should never catch his parents' killer. Or if it does, it should be a big multi-part storyline.

[literally exaggerated]

It worked wonderfully for Batman Begins, I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

[infoghost]

So does this mean that the year after Batman is a new Batman. I'm getting a feeling that Infinite Crisis has just retired Batman Prime, putting him in the old age home with Golden Age Batman and Silver Age Batman.

No, it's the same Batman, with a new outlook.

[Choppa]

I'm worried that we won't get more books like Batman #603 if we know who the killer is.

[filthysize]

I'm worried that we won't get more books like Batman #603 if we know who the killer is.

Oh god, yes. Dammit! Does that mean the retcon is erasing one of the best Batman issues?

[The Lucky One]

It worked wonderfully for Batman Begins, I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

It didn't, really; it was one of the few problems with the movie. By having Joe Chill not just caught, but caught the same night, it essentially erased any reason for Bruce to become Batman. Before, you could say he didn't become a cop or a prosecutor because subconsciously, those people failed him by never catching his parents' killer or bringing him to justice... thus, the extreme measure of becoming Batman instead, taking the law into his own hands. In Begins, instead, the system works and works flawlessly- quick arrest, easy conviction. Thus, his overall reasons for becoming Batman in the first place were weakened.

-D

[seaflower]

I could go either way....

[Sean Whitmore]

I thought I couldn't care any less when Zero Hour retconned Joe Chill away. But now I realize that isn't true, because I do care less about IC sticking him back in.

I'm not for or against it, I just honestly don't see how it could make the slightest bit of difference.


SEAN

[Dr. Drake Ramoray]

If it helps to drive a stake through the heart of Bat-Dick, I'm all for it.

[Choppa]

It didn't, really; it was one of the few problems with the movie. By having Joe Chill not just caught, but caught the same night, it essentially erased any reason for Bruce to become Batman. Before, you could say he didn't become a cop or a prosecutor because subconsciously, those people failed him by never catching his parents' killer or bringing him to justice... thus, the extreme measure of becoming Batman instead, taking the law into his own hands. In Begins, instead, the system works and works flawlessly- quick arrest, easy conviction. Thus, his overall reasons for becoming Batman in the first place were weakened.

-D

I don't think that's really what happened. Bruce's motivation in the movie had a lot to do with the responsibility he felt for saving the city as a whole. Even though Chill was caught, the fact that his parents were killed because of the extreme poverty that the city felt was something that could have been avoided. Plus, don't forget that because of all of the corruption, Chill was being let go after only a short while in prison. That's why Bruce felt the need to shoot him.

[muimi]

I like the change. Like the movie, it makes the Batman figure more noble. Instead of risking his motivation being completely one-minded, revenge seeking, this makes him more of a hero in the traditional sense that he's serving his beloved city of Gotham. Of course, this shouldn't take away from his bad-assery. :)

[The Lucky One]

I don't think that's really what happened. Bruce's motivation in the movie had a lot to do with the responsibility he felt for saving the city as a whole. Even though Chill was caught, the fact that his parents were killed because of the extreme poverty that the city felt was something that could have been avoided. Plus, don't forget that because of all of the corruption, Chill was being let go after only a short while in prison. That's why Bruce felt the need to shoot him.

You raise some good points that I certainly won't try to dispute... very insightful. I still prefer the non-Joe Chill origin (and even in the movie, wasn't he in prison for like 10 years before being paroled? Not that long, but hardly a "short while" either), but you're very persuasive in arguing for the direction they took.

-D

[Choppa]

You raise some good points that I certainly won't try to dispute... very insightful. I still prefer the non-Joe Chill origin (and even in the movie, wasn't he in prison for like 10 years before being paroled? Not that long, but hardly a "short while" either), but you're very persuasive in arguing for the direction they took.

-D

Yeah I guess it was probably about 10 or 11 years because it happened when he was 8(?) and then the trial was when he was in college. Nevertheless, like Rachael said, "justice isn't about revenge, it's about harmoney." Bruce decides to become Batman so that others wont go through the same experience he did.

And I agree, I like him not knowing who the killer is. It makes him unique from Dick and Tim and it gives us great issues like Batman #603. Plus I hate Year Two and think that the name "Joe Chill" isn't very creative.

[Babylon23]

I didn't even realise the Joe Chill story had been retconned until about 5 years ago.

I'm glad it's back. The fact that Batman's parents were killed by a random act of violence from a relative nobody adds a level of desolation to Batman's origin. There is no mystery here, no grand scheme for him to investigate.

Also, I disagree that the Joe Chill revelation removes any of Batman's motivation. I'd say that it adds an heroic element to the character. In his early career, he was partially driven by a desire to find his parent's killer. Having caught Chill, he's now motivated by a desire to prevent others from experiencing what he went through.

Personally, I think this returns an element of pure heroism to the character, rather than the obsessive maniac we've had for the last few years.

[The Lucky One]

Also, I disagree that the Joe Chill revelation removes any of Batman's motivation. I'd say that it adds an heroic element to the character. In his early career, he was partially driven by a desire to find his parent's killer. Having caught Chill, he's now motivated by a desire to prevent others from experiencing what he went through.

Personally, I think this returns an element of pure heroism to the character, rather than the obsessive maniac we've had for the last few years.

In the comics, that's certainly a valid point, and you're right about adding the heroic element. In the movie, though, Chill was caught the very same night... it's not a huge issue or anything, I still loved the film, but that (and Bats letting Ra's die) were the two parts I was less crazy about.

-D

[Damo]

Provided it doesn't make "The Reaper" canon again, I'm all for it. I liked Chill from the movie - a pathetic little rat. Not the superb mob hitman we got in Year Two. I like the idea that Batman sees his parents' killer and can basically go "that's it? That's all he was?"

[Babylon23]

In the comics, that's certainly a valid point, and you're right about adding the heroic element. In the movie, though, Chill was caught the very same night... it's not a huge issue or anything, I still loved the film, but that (and Bats letting Ra's die) were the two parts I was less crazy about.

-D

Oh, I agree with you about Batman Begins completely. I was responding purely to the comic retcon of a retcon.

[David O Burcham]

The one good thing to come from the flick Batman Forever was Bruce Wayne's realization that he isn't Batman because he's compelled to be, but because he choses to be.

If Joe Chill advances (or, rather, re-advances) that goal in the comics, I'm all for it.

[Sean Whitmore]

Provided it doesn't make "The Reaper" canon again, I'm all for it.


Seconded. I don't know what annoys me about that story more: Batman carrying a gun because some old man in a cape kicked his ass, or it being the SAME gun that killed his parents.


SEAN

[filthysize]

Seconded. I don't know what annoys me about that story more: Batman carrying a gun because some old man in a cape kicked his ass, or it being the SAME gun that killed his parents.


SEAN

You know what annoyed me the most? The shoulder holster.

Batman has a utility belt. Can't add a side holster to that? He has to wear an ugly and out of place chest contraption? Ridiculous.

[Lurch]

The one good thing to come from the flick Batman Forever was Bruce Wayne's realization that he isn't Batman because he's compelled to be, but because he choses to be.

If Joe Chill advances (or, rather, re-advances) that goal in the comics, I'm all for it.

Me too. But does anyone else think maybe this was an editorial edict to make the comics cooincide with what took place in the film? I'm getting skeptical in my old age, and it seems I'm always looking at comics from the angle of being a loss leader for toys and films, which is where the real money is.

[Apathy Boy]

I am of two minds on this one.

Not knowing who the killer is makes Bruce a much more tragic hero, searching for justice he'll never find. Knowing who the killer is makes Bruce a much more heroic figure. I think I can live with either alternative.

But at least I can say with absolute certainty that YEAR TWO was indeed an awful, awful story. Though I will admit that I thought the Reaper was kind of cool at the time.

[filthysize]

Though I will admit that I thought the Reaper was kind of cool at the time.

Because of this, perhaps? :P

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000F6W76Y.01-A35F2YAKCF027D._SCLZZZZZZZ_V56325103_.jpg

[Dustin Griffin]

Whats funny is that I had all the zero hour issues, zero hour itself, and every Batman book from around that time and way before and after, and it didnt even sink in to me that they had retconned out Joe Chill until I read Batman/Superman Public Enemies a while back (where he thinks metallo may have killed his parents).

I think its because a lot of 90's comics are a blur to me.

I prefer it with Joe Chill. It makes Bats seem too open-ended the other way.

[Sizzle]

Whats funny is that I had all the zero hour issues, zero hour itself, and every Batman book from around that time and way before and after, and it didnt even sink in to me that they had retconned out Joe Chill until I read Batman/Superman Public Enemies a while back (where he thinks metallo may have killed his parents).

I think its because a lot of 90's comics are a blur to me.

I prefer it with Joe Chill. It makes Bats seem too open-ended the other way.

That and how they went about retconning Chill was unclear. I interpret it that from the moment the Waynes died until however old Bruce was at Zero Hour, he would of thought Chill killed his parents. Not well done at all because technically, it did not retcon Year 2 in the books. Denny just said it did.

I'm glad they fixed this and set things right. I can't wait for them to retcon Jason being alive....

[NotSuper]

I like Chill being the official killer. I never did like how the Joker was the killer in the Burton movies. I prefer Bruce's parents to be killed by a hapless schmoe than a future villain. It makes their deaths seem all the more tragic and believable.

Similarly, I prefer the idea of Krypton being destroyed by natural causes than by the actions of some evil person or faction (like Black Zero).

[The Batman]

call me cynical but i see this change, along with Gordon coming back, as an effort to bring the comics closer in line with what people saw onscreen in Batman Begins.

there are strengths and weaknesses to both the Joe Chill and annonymous killer origins, most of which have been discussed already, and either take can yield the same Batman. either option offers the smae amount of story potential and neither is more of less realistic than the other. the only problem i had with the Joe Chill origin, especially from the movie, was that if the police arrest Chill so quickly it seems that it would show a young Bruce that the system works and that the police can handle things. with a Joe Chill uncaught, or later caught by Batman, or even a killer that remains annonymous it seems that Bruce would be further inclined to seek his own solution given a system that he has clearly seen doesn't work.

[Choppa]

What an insightful comment!

[SdotCopp]

if batman begins was their motive for the changes, good. i really don't care about the REASON for the changes, more the result of such changes. that being a batman comic more in tune with what i grew up reading

[JulianPerez]

I personally, am all in favor of the return of Joe Chill. Not just because the issue that gave us Chill was a great story (as was "To Kill a Legend" by Alan Brennert, another Chill story) but also because it restores Batman's fundamental characterization as being a heroic protector of the weak instead of being a Steven Segal-esque parody our for vengeance.

I doubt it is because of BATMAN BEGINS. Everyone from Mark Waid to Morrison to Paul Dini have been complaining about how in recent times Batman's behavior has been paranoid and unpleasant instead of heroic, and there has been a desire to make Batman a heroic, swashbuckling character instead. The movie also wanted a heroic, Englehart-esque Batman, and so they made that decision as well.

They made the same creative choice for the exact same reason, not because of each other.

DC has made many decisions that have bucked what is going on with their characters in popular media (unlike Marvel, who view the the comics as extensions of the movies - remember, the X-Men in the comics started wearing leather jackets around the time the movie gave them outfits). Note for instance, that Hawkgirl has NOT become a regular JLA member, despite her use in the cartoon.

I for one, respect that they do this. The characters in comics are not just something that can be bucked, warped and altered according to whatever trend exists beyond them. The comics shouldn't be "synergy" for a hit movie or animated series.

I also think the Question and the Huntress is an absurd idea, and it is unfortunate that there has been a desire to pair them up in the comics just because JLU does so. For one thing, the characters have approximately zero history together. For another, they have little in common. For a third thing, it is very hard to imagine the uncompromising hardass the Question in a regular relationship. This is the reason that Fox Mulder and Scully never had any hanky panky; not because it would be gimmicky, but because it's hard to imagine someone as driven and antisocial as Fox Mulder having a regular relationship with ANYBODY.

[filthysize]

I also think the Question and the Huntress is an absurd idea, and it is unfortunate that there has been a desire to pair them up in the comics just because JLU does so. For one thing, the characters have approximately zero history together.

Well... the JLU relationship is actually inspired by Rucka's Batman/Huntress: Cry For Blood mini-series, so it's more like the comics and the cartoon are immitating each other.

[phantom1592]

The other thing that I never liked was that Not finding out, wasn't very believable. Seriously this wasn't just a random mugging.

This was the random mugging of the Rich and Famous!

When Celebrities die, SOMEONE gets arrested. Whether they're cleared or not in a trial is irrelevant. SOMEBODY gets arrested. ;)

[stillanerd]

While this was obviously done to make the comics tie-in closer to Batman Begins I do think this was something that needed to be corrected and should never had been removed in the first place. It was understandable that the idea of having Zero Hour rewrite Batman's history, in that Joe Chill was innocent and that Batman's parents were killed by an unknown gunman, was to emphasize that he was driven, and that the belief was that if he found his parents killer that he would lose his motivation for being Batman. But as earlier comics pre-crisis, Batman Begins, various writers, and some posters here have made clear, Batman is motivated more by justice than vengence. He wants to liberate Gotham from crime and prevent what happened to him as a child from happening to others. Not finding his killer made him dangerously close to the Punisher and also, considering how he couldn't seem to find him after all that time, undermines him as one of the "world's greatest detectives."

What I'm wondering is if this retconning of the retcon made it like Batman Begins, in that Joe Chill was caught just after the Wayne murders and later assassinated, or has it gone back to what it was in the Golden/Silver age, in that Batman eventually found Joe Chill, confronted him, revealed who he was, and Chill was so terrified that he blabed to his men that he killed Batman's parents, which resulted in his own men killing him for being the guy responsible for creating Batman. I'm hoping for the later.

[The Batman]

I personally, am all in favor of the return of Joe Chill. Not just because the issue that gave us Chill was a great story (as was "To Kill a Legend" by Alan Brennert, another Chill story) but also because it restores Batman's fundamental characterization as being a heroic protector of the weak instead of being a Steven Segal-esque parody our for vengeance.

I doubt it is because of BATMAN BEGINS. Everyone from Mark Waid to Morrison to Paul Dini have been complaining about how in recent times Batman's behavior has been paranoid and unpleasant instead of heroic, and there has been a desire to make Batman a heroic, swashbuckling character instead. The movie also wanted a heroic, Englehart-esque Batman, and so they made that decision as well.



as the animated series more than any other example has shown, you can have a less paranoid more "swashbuckling" Batman with or without Joe Chill having been identified and caught. in fact Batman Begins, which had Joe Chill quickly caught and convicted, giving us a more heroic, less paranoid, swashbuckling Batman also gave us a Batman who was more than willing to kill until Katie Holmes slapped(literally) some sense into him. it seems that even with Joe Chill caught Batman can still veer close to that Steven Segal kill'em vengence model.

[phantom1592]

I don't give Batman Begins any credit for this change. In all honesty the character has been around for 60 years and about 10 of those he didn't know who it was that killed them. Now were back to having a name.

10 years vs. 50 years isn't a retcon, it's the return of Status Quo. Now Organic Webshooters and Leather X-suits a month after a movie, or a New Ma & Pa Kent that look like Annette O'Toole and John Schieder, THAT is Catering to the masses. Lets not bust their chops for returning to the classics.


Now If I can just get them to return to the REAL bat-costume, and drop the whole "this is my REAL face" crap. When batman wants to protect his identity and scare crooks so he wears a mask, that is cool. When batman sits around his cave looking at the computer and STILL wears the mask.... That's a little creepy ;)

You're HOME, Everyone here KNOWS who you are. Relax a little. That mask is attached to the cape, and it would have a lot of weight on your neck (especially when they make it bullet proof, flame proof everything else proof.) Plus your looking through those lenses all the time. Not very likely.

[Guts/Batman]

That is okay with me. :D

With him less paranoid and more conversating with his friends and allies then I cool with it. :p

I am as well.

None of this stupid "8 year old in 35 year old man's body" business...

[Guts/Batman]

Now Organic Webshooters

Don't forget giving birth to himself...:D

[Pseudodragon]

I like the knowing his parents killer origin a lot better. Not because it makes him and more or less of a dick, but because he's the world's greatest detective. If he can find genius supervillains, he can find some poor schmoe. And he's the goddamned Batman. He's not going to take the cops word for it or be fooled by any frame-up.

[phantom1592]

Don't forget giving birth to himself...:D

Umm... While a truly stupid idea.... I can't lay that one at the feet of the Spider-Media either :)

[ShadowSonic]

None of this stupid "8 year old in 35 year old man's body" business...

Hey, it works for Captain Marvel :D :D :D

[Guts/Batman]

Hey, it works for Captain Marvel :D :D :D

That's all well and good for Cap Marvel (whoever the next one will be) but Batman lacks a certain component to do that...

[bannermanonemillion]

It's fine by me, and presumably brings Year 2 back into canon. I don't think it really affects him, other than maybe justifying their making him less paranoid and isolated.

*spittakes all over monitor*

You don't mean Year Two with the Reaper do you?

DO YOU?

I mean, this was the most OOC Batman I've seen this side of ASB&R. The Batman who had been holding on to the gun that killed his parents all these years (instead of y'know GIVING IT TO THE COPS). The Reaper (who was a middle aged man who spent the last 10 or 20 years paralyzed) who beat Batman so badly that Batman decided that to beat him he needed.....a GUN!

I'd better stop before I start ranting.

Dude, the idea of Year Two becoming canon is scarier than Larry Hama being given a Bat-Book.