CIVIL WAR #1 (*spoilers*)

[XPac]

I'd think that Johnny Storm would be a legitmate target for anti hero-ness.
He's a major player, who's been involved in a lot of destruction of New York, and him still having some leyway could've been seen as a pisstake.



True... for a guy that burned down a university, he's probably not the best person in the world to look down on the NW for screwing up.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

It was an ok 1st issue. I do think Captain America is the star thus far of Civil War. He's the guy taking a stand and you can see that they pushed Steve Rodgers into a corner and he reacted. It was a good read for that and some of the reactions the heroes have had .

The bad parts is the New Warriors look like idiots and the others who have known them for years are talkin sh-t about them. Storm and the others who have supposedly seen the NW's now act like thier buffoons all that time.

The worse part is the end. We have not seen enough to believe Tony Stark would want to make his former friend listen ort bring him in. I haven't seen anything of this sort leading up to Civil War.




Theres some good and bad in Civil War. Least Miller has done more action and story than what Bendis did in House of M.

[Exodus]

CW #1: Comic books at its very best.

I explained the whole discussion to my girlfriend (who only reads comics like Bone or Elfquest) and we had a 20 minute heated argument about the pros and cons of registration, she is strongly Anti btw ^^

And then ofcourse i had to read the whole issue to her, so CW got another reader, that tells me they are really on to something here.



And about the bar scene.


Whats not to believe?


A bunch of people are pissed for being in line for an excluse night club, that kind of crowd is never good, a few of them start to pick on some celebrity, and the rest join in for the fun of it.

But there is always that one or two crazy mother****ers who might do something stupid like hit him in the back of the head with a bottle.

The first thing Johnny did was stand up the crowd, and usually that would have been enough, new yorkers love to argue after all. But u never know, maybe some guy had family in Stamford, or maybe he just decided to take this issue personally for whatever reasons.

After that its mob mentality.


-Exodus

[WolverinesSon]

It's Harvey Dent, taking the "Two-Face" thing one step further by appearing in Marvel Comics as well as DC.
Anythings possible at this point.

[JeffreyWKramer]

CW #1: Comic books at its very best.


Ummm... no. Not even close. A little perspective, please. Consider instead SANDMAN or PROMETHEA or PREACHER or TOP TEN or MAUS or LOVE AND ROCKETS or MIRACLEMAN or Moore's SWAMP THING or THE INVISIBLES or PLANETARY or Ellis' run on THE AUTHORITY or just about anything by Eisner or Stan and Jack's FF or Stan and Steve's DR. STRANGE or ... well, heck, craploads of other things.

Hey, it's not a bad book. Better than most stuff DC and Marvel are putting out these days, for sure. But very best? Nuh uh, not even in the ball park.

[Kevinroc]

It was an ok 1st issue. I do think Captain America is the star thus far of Civil War. He's the guy taking a stand and you can see that they pushed Steve Rodgers into a corner and he reacted. It was a good read for that and some of the reactions the heroes have had .

The bad parts is the New Warriors look like idiots and the others who have known them for years are talkin sh-t about them. Storm and the others who have supposedly seen the NW's now act like thier buffoons all that time.

The worse part is the end. We have not seen enough to believe Tony Stark would want to make his former friend listen ort bring him in. I haven't seen anything of this sort leading up to Civil War.




Theres some good and bad in Civil War. Least Miller has done more action and story than what Bendis did in House of M.


I actually equate Johnny being so callous as an attempt to distance himself from The New Warriors. Think about the real world. When a person from a particular group does something bad, other people try to distance themself from the one who did something bad.

We see that ALL THE TIME in the real world.

Sean Whitmore posted a thread detailing some of the falling-outs that Captain America and Iron Man have had over the years.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=121046&highlight=Friends

So them having a disagreement is actually nothing new to Marvel continuity.

And The New Warriors (and members related to The New Warriors) hadn't been written as the best of the bunch for the last several years.

Marvel's attempts to tie this all into continuity, make it new-reader friendly and a political allegory worked for me.

[StoneGold]

Ummm... no. Not even close. A little perspective, please. Consider instead SANDMAN or PROMETHEA or PREACHER or TOP TEN or MAUS or LOVE AND ROCKETS or MIRACLEMAN or Moore's SWAMP THING or THE INVISIBLES or PLANETARY or Ellis' run on THE AUTHORITY or just about anything by Eisner or Stan and Jack's FF or Stan and Steve's DR. STRANGE or ... well, heck, craploads of other things.

Hey, it's not a bad book. Better than most stuff DC and Marvel are putting out these days, for sure. But very best? Nuh uh, not even in the ball park.
A little further perspective, a couple of the books you list range on my meter from casual disinterest to active dislike. Your comics at it's best doesn't=someone else's. Not exactly an objective category.

[cappa donna]

A little further perspective, a couple of the books you list range on my meter from casual disinterest to active dislike. Your comics at it's best doesn't=someone else's. Not exactly an objective category.
He's just a more sophisticated comicbook reader than you are. :rolleyes:

[XPac]

The worse part is the end. We have not seen enough to believe Tony Stark would want to make his former friend listen ort bring him in. I haven't seen anything of this sort leading up to Civil War.





To me it kind of makes sense that Tony would want to be the one to bring Cap in. SHIELD was already shooting at Cap (albeint with tranqs). If they're the ones bringing him in, he may be more likely to get hurt.

Iron Man at least will try to reason with Cap before fighting with him. And if fighting becomes inevitable, you can be sure that he'll do everything in his power to ensure no one really gets hurt. The corrupt SHIELD won't have those same considerations.

Course, that being said I still think it's ridiculous that they are trying to bring Cap in anyways since he only was refusing to comply with a law that hasn't even been ratified yet. Agent Hill was really jumping the gun there.

[Exodus]

Ummm... no. Not even close. A little perspective, please. Consider instead SANDMAN or PROMETHEA or PREACHER or TOP TEN or MAUS or LOVE AND ROCKETS or MIRACLEMAN or Moore's SWAMP THING or THE INVISIBLES or PLANETARY or Ellis' run on THE AUTHORITY or just about anything by Eisner or Stan and Jack's FF or Stan and Steve's DR. STRANGE or ... well, heck, craploads of other things.

Hey, it's not a bad book. Better than most stuff DC and Marvel are putting out these days, for sure. But very best? Nuh uh, not even in the ball park.


That is a good point, ill rephraze to mainstream comics at it very best.

Even so the work and Quality of work it represents is very good, but a mainstream comic isnt really comparable to a comic that has the freedom to go much more to an extreem.

Having to work within the boundaries of a Superhero mainstream comicbook and still delivering this quality shows a greater achievement in my eyes.


-Exodus

[JeffreyWKramer]

That is a good point, ill rephraze to mainstream comics at it very best.

Even so the work and Quality of work it represents is very good, but a mainstream comic isnt really comparable to a comic that has the freedom to go much more to an extreem.

Having to work within the boundaries of a Superhero mainstream comicbook and still delivering this quality shows a greater achievement in my eyes.


-Exodus

As a mainstream Marvel book, it's pretty good. Still not "best" - I don't think this is likely to surpass stuff like the Dark Phoenix saga, Miller's DAREDEVIL, BATMAN: YEAR ONE, the first year of RUNAWAYS, the better Stan/Jack or Stan/Steve stuff or Simonson's THOR, for example - but so far, it seems pretty good. Say, YOUNG AVENGERS good. Which isn't bad at all, even if it's not "best ever."

[JeffreyWKramer]

He's just a more sophisticated comicbook reader than you are. :rolleyes:

That goes without saying.

[Exodus]

As a mainstream Marvel book, it's pretty good. Still not "best" - I don't think this is likely to surpass stuff like the Dark Phoenix saga, Miller's DAREDEVIL, BATMAN: YEAR ONE, the first year of RUNAWAYS, the better Stan/Jack or Stan/Steve stuff or Simonson's THOR, for example - but so far, it seems pretty good. Say, YOUNG AVENGERS good. Which isn't bad at all, even if it's not "best ever."

I disagree, there is something about the attention to detail in Civil war that makes it stand out.

Ofcourse so far we only had one issue, so its plenty of time for them to fumble the ball.

But remember that everything uve mentioned wasnt ALL good, theyve all had some aspects that where kinda off.

Dark phoenix suicide was badly handled in my eyes, they should have made it more clear it was a suicide instead of having her die to one of the defence cannons.

Same with Frank Millers run on DD, an albino sewer kingpin???

Also sandman was great but i never cared for the artist towards the end, in the kindly ones.

Invisibles had a GREAT second season with Phil Jimenes amazing art, but the third season kinda went downhill with Morrison talking about memeplexes and how everything is predestined because society gives us prefabricated roles to live our lives by.

etc etc etc


get my point?

Ur opinion vs My opinion...


-Exodus

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I actually equate Johnny being so callous as an attempt to distance himself from The New Warriors. Think about the real world. When a person from a particular group does something bad, other people try to distance themself from the one who did something bad.

We see that ALL THE TIME in the real world.

Sean Whitmore posted a thread detailing some of the falling-outs that Captain America and Iron Man have had over the years.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=121046&highlight=Friends

So them having a disagreement is actually nothing new to Marvel continuity.

And The New Warriors (and members related to The New Warriors) hadn't been written as the best of the bunch for the last several years.

Marvel's attempts to tie this all into continuity, make it new-reader friendly and a political allegory worked for me.


Its ok ( issue wise...don't get me wrong) and you are right that Cap & Iron Man haven't been the best of friends at times. But this topic " Registration or Not " has never came up between the 2. Maybe a flashback panel will focus on that or they'll do a New Avengers issue where the 2 disagree on this topic and it sets the stage for Iron Man to take him down.

If thier going by continuty they should at least try and act like the New Warriors were once heroes and not C-List fools all the time they were a group. As they seem to be portraying them as ..we've seen thus far in issue #1.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

To me it kind of makes sense that Tony would want to be the one to bring Cap in. SHIELD was already shooting at Cap (albeint with tranqs). If they're the ones bringing him in, he may be more likely to get hurt.

Iron Man at least will try to reason with Cap before fighting with him. And if fighting becomes inevitable, you can be sure that he'll do everything in his power to ensure no one really gets hurt. The corrupt SHIELD won't have those same considerations.

Course, that being said I still think it's ridiculous that they are trying to bring Cap in anyways since he only was refusing to comply with a law that hasn't even been ratified yet. Agent Hill was really jumping the gun there.


I agree with you that SHIELD over stepped and forced the issue with Captain America. I do think Tony will try and talk him down at 1st , but it just seemed so rush that Stark would change his stance so quickly and decide he has to be the guy who brings in Steve .


Also another complaint is the " Angry Mother " who comes up and spits in Stark's face. I like drama...hell I love drama on TV and in comics. This seemed so forced and so stupied " Hey you killed my son , even though you weren't there and the New Warriors weren't the Avengers and haven't done as much as you. But..f-ck you pal , anyway ! "

The typical response running thru my head was that this lady suffered a huge loss and her minds warped. If she was gonna slap someone...it should be Speedball. Not a guy who has saved the Earth and odds are her life more times than she could bother counting as an Avenger !

I know the Avengers and New Warriors were close at times as Justice & Firestar were recruited at one time and Rage was sent there. But I still can't see how this Mother can run up and spit in Tony Stark's face over it.

[Mark Thorson]

First off, one thing I really disagree with. Johnny's depiction was way off. He's something of a jerk, but he's also a loyal jerk, and I don't remember him ever having shown such disdain in regard to a former girlfriend. As such, his dissing of his apparently-dead former girlfriend and her team just plain seems out of character.

That was my only real gripe about the issue. Only 2 things gave me a "huh?" moment. That one, and the other was the comment by the Thing. I couldn't tell if he was addressing Wolverine or Hank Pym. There was no reaction from anyone to the comment at all.

[Loestal]

That was my only real gripe about the issue. Only 2 things gave me a "huh?" moment. That one, and the other was the comment by the Thing. I couldn't tell if he was addressing Wolverine or Hank Pym. There was no reaction from anyone to the comment at all.

Yeah, at first I thought he was talkin to Logan...but that makes no sense, and makes alot of sense to be talking to Pym like that.

[Kevinroc]

Its ok ( issue wise...don't get me wrong) and you are right that Cap & Iron Man haven't been the best of friends at times. But this topic " Registration or Not " has never came up between the 2. Maybe a flashback panel will focus on that or they'll do a New Avengers issue where the 2 disagree on this topic and it sets the stage for Iron Man to take him down.

If thier going by continuty they should at least try and act like the New Warriors were once heroes and not C-List fools all the time they were a group. As they seem to be portraying them as ..we've seen thus far in issue #1.

We didn't see Iron Man and Cap arguing about registration because Cap wasn't at the Baxter Building. He was at the SHIELD helicarrier. But the point of Iron Man vs. Cap is supposed to represent how "close" they have been over the years. And we've seen them have their problems many times. So it isn't like this is out of left field. We won't hit The New Avengers tie-in issues for a little while yet but since we're opening with a Cap issue, who knows.

But Marvel is going by continuity in regards to The New Warriors. Marvel, in recent years, has potrayed members of The New Warriors as C-list fools. But of all people, shouldn't you be the wrong person for arguing about The New Warriors being potrayed here as C-list fools when you argued FOR the treatment Blue Beetle got in Countdown.

At least the treatment of The New Warriors didn't come as totally out of left field as Beetle's treatment in Countdown.


I agree with you that SHIELD over stepped and forced the issue with Captain America. I do think Tony will try and talk him down at 1st , but it just seemed so rush that Stark would change his stance so quickly and decide he has to be the guy who brings in Steve .


Also another complaint is the " Angry Mother " who comes up and spits in Stark's face. I like drama...hell I love drama on TV and in comics. This seemed so forced and so stupied " Hey you killed my son , even though you weren't there and the New Warriors weren't the Avengers and haven't done as much as you. But..f-ck you pal , anyway ! "

The typical response running thru my head was that this lady suffered a huge loss and her minds warped. If she was gonna slap someone...it should be Speedball. Not a guy who has saved the Earth and odds are her life more times than she could bother counting as an Avenger !

I know the Avengers and New Warriors were close at times as Justice & Firestar were recruited at one time and Rage was sent there. But I still can't see how this Mother can run up and spit in Tony Stark's face over it.

She said she was angry because Tony funded The Avengers and thus had some moral responsibility for kids idolizing these costumed characters. She's angry and lashing out because her son was killed.

I can sum this up perfectly. A couple of years ago out here in California, a drunk driver killed another person. This person was a girl who was just in a car with her boyfriend (and they were not drunk or high or anything like that). Who did this girl's mother get mad at? The boyfriend.

So as dumb as you found the mother spitting on Tony Stark to be, I found it very realistic.

[Exodus]

Speedball would never have been allowed to be at that funeral.

Stark was there to try to distance the superheroics he stands by from the the kind of superhero antics that led to this situation.

But consider the mothers viewpoint.

Every week she hears about superheros doing battle, and more and more its about the damage they leave behind, the lives that are lost in their wake.

Sure they save the world, but most of the time ur average citizens never hears about that part.

So after countless reports about the terrors of superhero collatteral damage it finally hits home, and to someone she loves, her own son.

Ofcourse she would blame the whole superhero comunity, not only the ones present.
This happend because there are people in the world society has no way to contain or control, simply because they are too powerful.

A strong suburban soccermom would want to DO something about what killed her son, form a focus group or a comitee.

Then try to find a solution to what they percieve as the problem, then complain about it till something gets done.

Dont expect anyone in grief to have a clear rational mind,
remember the US post 9/11... (I had to get that in didnt I. :rolleyes: )

-Exodus

[Sabrinaset]

... the better Stan/Jack... stuff...

Why, to even consider lumping Stan and Jack's FF with those lesser works is almost heresy! Even Alan Moore could never top this...!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/DrDoom.jpg

Okay, okay...it's a little too soon to tell just yet if Civil War will hold up to the best comics has to offer. I'll wait until the seventh issue. But it IS off to a good start, at least.

[Haunt]

Why, to even consider lumping Stan and Jack's FF with those lesser works is almost heresy! Even Alan Moore could never top this...!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/DrDoom.jpg

Okay, okay...it's a little too soon to tell just yet if Civil War will hold up to the best comics has to offer. I'll wait until the seventh issue. But it IS off to a good start, at least.


lol! i always get a chuckle out of that old stuff. Doom is such a prat. and that "humanity beware" stuff does nothing to support the argument that he's just misunderstood and only wants to help the world by leading it.

[Linguini]

Amazing first issue, loved the way bendis wrote it and cap's escape seen. Hmmm.....civil war seems not to be the bad comic I had expected.

[Beast]

Amazing first issue, loved the way bendis wrote it and cap's escape seen. Hmmm.....civil war seems not to be the bad comic I had expected.
Psst. It was Mark Millar that wrote it. ;) :D

[StoneGold]

Why, to even consider lumping Stan and Jack's FF with those lesser works is almost heresy! Even Alan Moore could never top this...!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/DrDoom.jpg

Okay, okay...it's a little too soon to tell just yet if Civil War will hold up to the best comics has to offer. I'll wait until the seventh issue. But it IS off to a good start, at least.
Doom's about to make Norrin his prison bitch, isn't he?

[Rokk]

I put a detailed review of Civil War #1 on my website. I'll just hit some of the main points here.

I liked this issue. I thought Millar did a nice job pacing the story. I also think he has a nice handle on all of the characters. Millar's dialogue was well done.

I liked the clean up scene. Very powerful and really sets the mood for this story.

I loved the Captain America v. S.H.I.E.L.D. scene. Excellent stuff. Plus, it builds Cap up to be a tough customer who might actually be a threat to the obviously more powerful Iron Man.

The Johnny being attacked by a mob scene was a good way of showing the ugly side of a scared populace.

I like watching the heroes begin to turn on each other.

The art was just flat out incredible. Civil War is a pretty book to read.

I can't wait for the next issue. I think that Civil War has the potential to be a very exciting and fun story. I already like it more than the House of M.

[PhantasyToaster]

All I can say about Civil War #1 is wow!....

I thought the issue was fantastic, im definetly looking forward to the rest of the series. The scene with cap blew me away, i cant wait for the next issue..

[Tony Starkz]

You guys need to read Illuminati together with CW #1.

The main thing that popped out was Iron Man's wish for this delegation of heroes finally coming to life.

[Faded]

I liked it.

I didn't know a handful of characters and didn't even recognize Namorita (I was wondering who that pretty blue girl was!), but still it was easy to follow and had some pretty artwork (but a lot of props to Morry Hollowell for the coloring).

Good setup.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

We didn't see Iron Man and Cap arguing about registration because Cap wasn't at the Baxter Building. He was at the SHIELD helicarrier. But the point of Iron Man vs. Cap is supposed to represent how "close" they have been over the years. And we've seen them have their problems many times. So it isn't like this is out of left field. We won't hit The New Avengers tie-in issues for a little while yet but since we're opening with a Cap issue, who knows.

I'll wait on the tie-in. Superman and Batman have disagreed over the years so thats what happens with heroes. I just hope we see the 2 debating this issue in a New Avengers issue.



But Marvel is going by continuity in regards to The New Warriors. Marvel, in recent years, has potrayed members of The New Warriors as C-list fools. But of all people, shouldn't you be the wrong person for arguing about The New Warriors being potrayed here as C-list fools when you argued FOR the treatment Blue Beetle got in Countdown.

Only differance was DC treated Ted Kord ( Blue Beetle) as a C-List hero since the late 80's. Marvel decided to do 1 mini-series with the New Warriors as TV reality stars about 2 to 3 years ago. Beetle had a standing as not a main hero after all those years while the NW were pushed into that role a few years back...


At least the treatment of The New Warriors didn't come as totally out of left field as Beetle's treatment in Countdown.

More or less I'm gonna have to disagree. DC had a longer history making Ted Kord a c-list hero than Marvel had doing the New Warriors.



She said she was angry because Tony funded The Avengers and thus had some moral responsibility for kids idolizing these costumed characters. She's angry and lashing out because her son was killed.

I agree she should be angry at her son dying. Of course someone else could be saying that without Tony Stark funding the Avengers her and her son would already be dead ! I could see her verbally tearing into him , but spitting in his face ? Jesus...


I can sum this up perfectly. A couple of years ago out here in California, a drunk driver killed another person. This person was a girl who was just in a car with her boyfriend (and they were not drunk or high or anything like that). Who did this girl's mother get mad at? The boyfriend.

I'm sorry for that poor woman's loss. But how is it the boyfriends fault that they were hit bya drunk driver ? I can see what your saying that the loss of someone close does make you react . Its just sad she blamed the boyfriend.


So as dumb as you found the mother spitting on Tony Stark to be, I found it very realistic.

I just feel had she slapped him or verbally tore into him , would have had more effect. The whole spitting in his face seemed really soap operaish.

In the end I'll get the 2nd issue. But hopefully my minor quirks will be fixed.

[JeffreyWKramer]

lol! i always get a chuckle out of that old stuff. Doom is such a prat. and that "humanity beware" stuff does nothing to support the argument that he's just misunderstood and only wants to help the world by leading it.

Stan and Jack's old stuff is great for what it is. It's from back when superhero comics were okay with being over-the-top, and weren't concerned with presenting a faux sense of reality. Think of Stan's dialogue the way one does an opera or a musical, rather than expecting a documentary, and the better stuff works just fine.

[ctgxant]

amazing issue. looks like civil war is actually going to live up to the hype, unlike infinite crisis.

[StoneGold]

More or less I'm gonna have to disagree. DC had a longer history making Ted Kord a c-list hero than Marvel had doing the New Warriors.


Granted, Ted's been a loser a lot longer than the Warriors. But if Marvel's been using the Warriors as the punchline for a heroes you only see in the background joke for at least the past 5 years, is that not enough?

[UniqueFrequency]

amazing issue. looks like civil war is actually going to live up to the hype, unlike infinite crisis.

about time, after the disappointment that was House Of M

[Effect]

Finally picked up my copy. Great start to the series. Just reading about Captain's fight doesn't really do it justice, it needs to be seen. Can't wait for #2.

[Sabrinaset]

Stan and Jack's old stuff is great for what it is. It's from back when superhero comics were okay with being over-the-top, and weren't concerned with presenting a faux sense of reality. Think of Stan's dialogue the way one does an opera or a musical, rather than expecting a documentary, and the better stuff works just fine.

Which reminds me...here's how Stan and Jack handled it when the Human Torch was involved in a mob fight...
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/FF48.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/FF48l.jpg

...they had it all. A cosmic threat, and yet, in the middle of it, a sense of humor. The fight between the Thing and that goon...hilarious! On the next page, Ben says to the unconscious goon "You can laugh about it in the hospital, telling everyone what a phony I am!" Priceless.

I don't agree with Kramer on a lot, but he's right when it comes to Civil War being the cream of the crop. Is it good? For now...yes. Will we remember it, be talking about it, five, ten years from now? Will it be closer to Crisis on Infinite Earths, rather than House of M? If we're lucky...yes to both.

Will it be anywhere on the level of the Galactus Trilogy? In Millar's dreams.

It's like that old saying..."If I appear great, it is because I stand on the shoulders of Giants."

[Exodus]

/agree

One thing i dont like about CW:

the last issue comes in November. :(

-Exodus

[Crash-Man]

I enjoyed it a lot and I'm looking forward to the rest of the issues and the tie-ins.

First time I've said that in a while.

Good stuff.

[Ripper]

I really enjoyed Civil War, but considering it had ads in it even though it was supposed to be a extra long issue.

[ilovemoney]

anyone want to guess when the Hulk will get back on Earth and start some payback??

[Beast]

anyone want to guess when the Hulk will get back on Earth and start some payback??
Not until 2007, I'd assume. Given the release list for Planet Hulk.

That will probably be one of 2007's big events. :)

[ilovemoney]

i wish Civil War was weekly, can't wait to see the #2-#7

[XPac]

anyone want to guess when the Hulk will get back on Earth and start some payback??

Hmmm... I do wonder if Hulk hadn't been launched into space how he would have factored into Civil War.

Banner is a scientist like Reed and Tony. And he understands the danger of uncontrollable superheroes better than anyone. But I can't see the Hulk side of him registering for SHIELD to get training. And I'm sure the government would sooner have him locked up than outside and registered.

[Kevinroc]

I'll wait on the tie-in. Superman and Batman have disagreed over the years so thats what happens with heroes. I just hope we see the 2 debating this issue in a New Avengers issue.

Well, what would make for a better story?

If we had already seen Cap and Iron Man argue about registration before hand or if Cap finds out Tony is for registration after he had gone underground?


Only differance was DC treated Ted Kord ( Blue Beetle) as a C-List hero since the late 80's. Marvel decided to do 1 mini-series with the New Warriors as TV reality stars about 2 to 3 years ago. Beetle had a standing as not a main hero after all those years while the NW were pushed into that role a few years back...

I know that DC had treated Beetle as C-list. But you're missing what the main difference is.

The main difference is that Cap said that if The New Warriors had called for help, The New Avengers would have immediately come to help.

Marvel had been treating The New Warriors (and members of the NW) as C-list screw-ups for a few years now. Or did you not see what a joke Speedball was in Alias?


More or less I'm gonna have to disagree. DC had a longer history making Ted Kord a c-list hero than Marvel had doing the New Warriors.

See, there's a difference as being treated as a C-list character by the company as C-list in the story itself.

The New Warriors were potrayed as screw-ups. Beetle was just treated as a piraih by all his friends. Remember that Beetle and Oracle were supposed to be friends and that Robin (Tim Drake) practically worshpped Beetle.

And this was around the time The Super-Buddies story was being published (the 2nd one) but who knows what the status of that was meant to be in-continuity.


I agree she should be angry at her son dying. Of course someone else could be saying that without Tony Stark funding the Avengers her and her son would already be dead ! I could see her verbally tearing into him , but spitting in his face ? Jesus...



I'm sorry for that poor woman's loss. But how is it the boyfriends fault that they were hit bya drunk driver ? I can see what your saying that the loss of someone close does make you react . Its just sad she blamed the boyfriend.



I just feel had she slapped him or verbally tore into him , would have had more effect. The whole spitting in his face seemed really soap operaish.

It's transference and it's a human reaction. Just remember how mad so many people were at all Muslims after 9/11. People did a lot worse to some Muslims than spit on their faces.

And Marvel's been "soap-operaish" since before Peter Parker had trouble juggling women and his time as Spider-Man.


In the end I'll get the 2nd issue. But hopefully my minor quirks will be fixed.

You really shouldn't even have those kinda quirks now.

[Lord S]

I thought the issue was pretty good...especially Cap taking out those SHIELD agents. Would have preferred to see Cap's and Iron Man's roles reversed...it would have made more sense for Stark to be anti-registration, considering he wears a mask.

But anyway, I'll pick up #2...and probably the rest after, if it doesn't get boring. Will NOT be picking up any of the tie-ins, though. That's just a waste of money, IMO.

8/10

[StoneGold]

it would have made more sense for Stark to be anti-registration, considering he wears a mask.

And what's this, a chocolate chip cookie?

http://www.dynamicforces.com/images/capfrontWthebase.jpg

[ilovemoney]

Personally I think the Hulk would be against registeration, no one is going to dictate to him what to do period! :evilsmile

[Lord S]

And what's this, a chocolate chip cookie?

http://www.dynamicforces.com/images/capfrontWthebase.jpg Yeah but doesn't everyone already know Cap's identity? That's what I thought...plus IM's mask completely covers his face...anyway, whatever.

[Sentry]

at first i would have thought that it would make more sense for iron-man to be anti reg and cap pro but during the issue the politics side of caps arguement made sense.

[Nomad]

Iron Man plays the same game the gov't does. Cap usually avoids playing their game. Iron Man understands that there was ovewhelming support for this measure, and that time wasn't on his side. It's not selling-out on his principles, it's fighting a war from the most logical, practical viewpoint.

[StoneGold]

Yeah but doesn't everyone already know Cap's identity? That's what I thought...plus IM's mask completely covers his face...anyway, whatever.
Civil War has nothing to do with public disclosure of secret identities. Read the first issue. As it turns out, if you join with the federales, your ID is still secret to the public.

[Crimson]

Yeah but doesn't everyone already know Cap's identity? That's what I thought...plus IM's mask completely covers his face...anyway, whatever.

It'd be kind of shallow for everyone who's ID is known to go "Well so what? Every knows ours... screw you guys".

These are guys who defend the average Joe every day, risking there lives. Why wouldn't they do for each other, regardless of how the act may effect them.

Plus the act isn't just giving up your ID.

[Simon Garth]

Got it today - pretty impressive set up for the series, though it maybe helped that I read it immediately after Infinite Crisis 7, which would make just about anything look good

One question - the checklist for related issues has Avengers 21-somthing. But the Annual leads into #22, and the Avengers are still all buddy buddy in there, apart from some foreshadowing between Stark and SpiderWoman. Anyone know if these issue numbers are correct?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Well, what would make for a better story?

If we had already seen Cap and Iron Man argue about registration before hand or if Cap finds out Tony is for registration after he had gone underground?

I'll have to wait and see how Marvel does it. I would have loved to see some foreshadowing of the 2 on this issue. But we'll see. Maybe they'll argue as they fight it out.


I know that DC had treated Beetle as C-list. But you're missing what the main difference is.

The main difference is that Cap said that if The New Warriors had called for help, The New Avengers would have immediately come to help.

Marvel had been treating The New Warriors (and members of the NW) as C-list screw-ups for a few years now. Or did you not see what a joke Speedball was in Alias?

I didn't read Alias. Always meant to but never picked it up. I always saw the team as serious heroes up til that last mini-series.


See, there's a difference as being treated as a C-list character by the company as C-list in the story itself.

The New Warriors were potrayed as screw-ups. Beetle was just treated as a piraih by all his friends. Remember that Beetle and Oracle were supposed to be friends and that Robin (Tim Drake) practically worshpped Beetle.

Robin worshipping Beetle was seemingly written by Chuck Dixon under his watch. If I remember he wanted Drake ( Robin) to take Kord's place as Beetle down the road but that has seemingly changed now .
Marvel and DC treated the Beetle and NW's as C-List heroes. In the last stories and with the charactors responding to them.


And this was around the time The Super-Buddies story was being published (the 2nd one) but who knows what the status of that was meant to be in-continuity.

I have no clue. Guy had a yellow ring and there was a bunch of things that makes you scratch your head. Consider that while " FKATJL " was running , Max Lord was gunning down Ted Kord and trying to take over ! Tell me thats not f-cked up timing.


It's transference and it's a human reaction. Just remember how mad so many people were at all Muslims after 9/11. People did a lot worse to some Muslims than spit on their faces.

That is true. I agree that things like that happens when emotions run high and people lose control. I guess I'll accept that this poor woman needed someone to blame and Stark being there was the one held accountable.


And Marvel's been "soap-operaish" since before Peter Parker had trouble juggling women and his time as Spider-Man.

Again I just thought it was really too soap operaish. Remember..I'm the guy who had a problem with " Sins Past " and mocked it for its real departure from reality. This was just a small issue for me pretty much.



You really shouldn't even have those kinda quirks now.

Hey people have nitpicks on things. I've seen people say things about Identity Crisis , Infinite Crisis and House of M on things. Hell I once read Uncanny X-Men 449# ( nothing bad..just comical) and found something so funny that Claremont wrote that I found it too wild to even see in a comic.

Thats just me....again I'll see what issue #2 does for me. If its ok as issue #1 I'll keep getting it.

[Rokk]

I had no problems with how the New Warriors were portrayed in Civil War. I have viewed them as losers for the past several years. I haven't takenthem seriously in a long time. I like how the New Warriors' reality show was used to kick start the push for a Registration Act. If we had super heroes in our reality then you know they would have a reality show made about some of them.

I think it also perfect demonstrated how dangerous soper heroes can be when they let their egos run unchecked. And also when the operate without the proper training and leadership.

[stillanerd]

Here's something I just thought of: we assume that superbeings are being relegated to S.H.E.I.L.D. because there is an assumption that they are the only ones who can handle them. But why not create a seperate agency composed entirely of superbeings, a mega-Avengers if you will, with liason officers monitoring their activities and reporting to the White House? Or why are superbings not part of some other agency like the NSA or the CIA? Here's my theory: what if the current leadership of S.H.E.I.L.D. is using this in an attempt to create their own army of superbeings so they can then turn around and stage a coup against the United States government? If they had a bunch of super-powered people under their control, there would be no way any military force would be able to stop them from taking over.

[dingo]

Here's something I just thought of: we assume that superbeings are being relegated to S.H.E.I.L.D. because there is an assumption that they are the only ones who can handle them. But why not create a seperate agency composed entirely of superbeings, a mega-Avengers if you will, with liason officers monitoring their activities and reporting to the White House? Or why are superbings not part of some other agency like the NSA or the CIA? Here's my theory: what if the current leadership of S.H.E.I.L.D. is using this in an attempt to create their own army of superbeings so they can then turn around and stage a coup against the United States government? If they had a bunch of super-powered people under their control, there would be no way any military force would be able to stop them from taking over.

Tom Brevoort said something about a new agency called HAMMER that got dumped because it made it too complicated, so SHEILD ended up there by default.

As for abusing the supers army, the only way that the against registration side could be the "clear winner" is if something like that happened to turn public opinion in their favour, so it is a chance.

[stillanerd]

Tom Brevoort said something about a new agency called HAMMER that got dumped because it made it too complicated, so SHEILD ended up there by default.

Makes sense (really need to read that Tom Brevoort answers your questions thread). Plus, if the new agency was called HAMMER, I can imagine someone would make a joke that the head of that agency would've been this guy:

http://www.brianchew.org/images/hammerman.jpg


As for abusing the supers army, the only way that the against registration side could be the "clear winner" is if something like that happened to turn public opinion in their favour, so it is a chance.

Something tells me it probably won't happen within the actual Civil War series but later on down the road. After all, S.H.E.I.L.D would have to get rid of the opposition first in order for a coup to work.

[dingo]

Something tells me it probably won't happen within the actual Civil War series but later on down the road. After all, S.H.E.I.L.D would have to get rid of the opposition first in order for a coup to work.

Doesn't have to be a coup, just obvious abuse of the fact that they have superheroes forcibly on their payroll. Sending them into Iraq might do it.

Aside from something like that happening in Civil War proper, I don't see how anti-registration could possibly "win". (Nobody wins a war)

[xzilledangel]

Food for thought.

At this point I still wouldnt jump the gun in saying what side superheros will be on from the first issue. Cap never implied or straight out said what side he was on, hes actions where not to harm his friends. In the end he might side with the government.

Have you noticed that in several of the issues leading up to the civil war Tony and Ironman having been acting very differently than the other. Did you see that? I said Tony AND Ironman as two seperate identies. I Have a sneaky suspicsion that every pic of Ironman isnt Tony at all.

Poor speedball one of my favorite characters from the old school days. But If i remember correctly, unless his powers got retconed, he can control kinetic energy so the explosion should have launched him to the next city but not kill him.

On the X side of the House: will Magneto jump over all of this with the registration coming out. Oh and what the hell is Bishop going to think ( you know the guy from the future where a similar regestration act pretty much wiped out all the mutants. And this would make a good time for Poccy to come in and really show people what WAR is all about.

All in all the first issue was good and most people agree on that fact except for the naysayers that sit back and armchair quaterback every line of dialouge used in the comic. I say enjoy the ride and see what happens.

[Sabrinaset]

And what's this, a chocolate chip cookie?

Sure looks that way, SG!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f336/sabrinaset/CaptainCookie.jpg

Yum!

[Kevinroc]

I'll have to wait and see how Marvel does it. I would have loved to see some foreshadowing of the 2 on this issue. But we'll see. Maybe they'll argue as they fight it out.

Definitely. There's been Cap/ Iron Man tension for quite a long while. Even New Avengers pointed out that there was some unresolved Cap/ IM tension.


I didn't read Alias. Always meant to but never picked it up. I always saw the team as serious heroes up til that last mini-series.

So it's Marvel's fault you haven't been following their continuity?

Speedball's appearance was in a fairly important story in Alias. The story that resolved what happened to Mattie Franklin following the end of her Spider-Woman series.

[/quote] Robin worshipping Beetle was seemingly written by Chuck Dixon under his watch. If I remember he wanted Drake ( Robin) to take Kord's place as Beetle down the road but that has seemingly changed now .
Marvel and DC treated the Beetle and NW's as C-List heroes. In the last stories and with the charactors responding to them. [/quote]

Cap said that if The New Warriors had called for help, The Avengers would have been there to help.

Beetle called for help and nobody came to help.

There's a bit of a difference there, now isn't there?


I have no clue. Guy had a yellow ring and there was a bunch of things that makes you scratch your head. Consider that while " FKATJL " was running , Max Lord was gunning down Ted Kord and trying to take over ! Tell me thats not f-cked up timing.

I've heard that Giffen knew how Countdown was gonna end before finishing his JL stories. Giffen is a rather warped individual, it seems.


That is true. I agree that things like that happens when emotions run high and people lose control. I guess I'll accept that this poor woman needed someone to blame and Stark being there was the one held accountable.

Exactly. The woman just lost her son to a super hero battle and Tony Stark is known for financially supporting super heroes.

Civil War #1 was a huge political allegory.


Again I just thought it was really too soap operaish. Remember..I'm the guy who had a problem with " Sins Past " and mocked it for its real departure from reality. This was just a small issue for me pretty much.

You have to remember that Marvel built themselves on soap-box comics. They did publish romance comics before The Fantastic Four.



Hey people have nitpicks on things. I've seen people say things about Identity Crisis , Infinite Crisis and House of M on things. Hell I once read Uncanny X-Men 449# ( nothing bad..just comical) and found something so funny that Claremont wrote that I found it too wild to even see in a comic.

Thats just me....again I'll see what issue #2 does for me. If its ok as issue #1 I'll keep getting it.

We'll see how it goes. I'm honestly wondering how Marvel is going to end this crossover. I believe Marvel when they claim there is no evil mastermind pulling the strings.

[Crash-Man]

*bites the Cap cookie*

[SUPERECWFAN1]

So it's Marvel's fault you haven't been following their continuity?


Speedball's appearance was in a fairly important story in Alias. The story that resolved what happened to Mattie Franklin following the end of her Spider-Woman series.

Again a lot of readers won't pick up a lot of the books. Hell I never even knew Speedball was in Alias til you mentioned it.


Cap said that if The New Warriors had called for help, The Avengers would have been there to help.

Beetle called for help and nobody came to help.

There's a bit of a difference there, now isn't there?

Thier claiming they would come and help and then every trashes them as losers pretty much :p . Hell..the New Warrior's suffered a worse death than Ted Kord. Everyone saw Ted die a brave death , standing up to Max. The New Warrior's ( most of them) died a death where everyone is down on them. Its sad...for them.


I've heard that Giffen knew how Countdown was gonna end before finishing his JL stories. Giffen is a rather warped individual, it seems.

How f-cked up was it reading that Ralph Dinby thought Sue was pregnet ? Thats just warped humor with what happened to her.



You have to remember that Marvel built themselves on soap-box comics. They did publish romance comics before The Fantastic Four.

Yeah , well so has DC and a few other publishers. I just never cared to get them as back issues. Thats just me.



We'll see how it goes. I'm honestly wondering how Marvel is going to end this crossover. I believe Marvel when they claim there is no evil mastermind pulling the strings.

Yeah..I just wonder how Nitro got to be so powerful though. Thats my main question right now.

[Kevinroc]

Again a lot of readers won't pick up a lot of the books. Hell I never even knew Speedball was in Alias til you mentioned it.

You should read Alias. It's probably the best Marvel title that Bendis has written for the company. Of course, since you know what happens to Jessica Jones it might not have the same impact.


Thier claiming they would come and help and then every trashes them as losers pretty much :p . Hell..the New Warrior's suffered a worse death than Ted Kord. Everyone saw Ted die a brave death , standing up to Max. The New Warrior's ( most of them) died a death where everyone is down on them. Its sad...for them.

Cap and Iron Man weren't really trashing them. The public and Johnny Storm are the ones who trashed them. And Johnny's comments are more based on trying to seperate himself from people that did something wrong (as many people in the real world do when someone in their "race" does something horribly wrong).

But see, Cap and Iron Man and everyone else have more of a right to say "these kids screwed up" because The New Warriors didn't come to them for help. They didn't call anybody. So the other Marvel heroes can say "why the hell didn't they call us?!"

Ted called everybody and was ignored. So the heroes of the DCU have to look at each other and realize that they were acting like asses. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

Cap, Iron Man, The Fantastic Four and the others can still look themselves in the mirror because they didn't get The New Warriors killed.


How f-cked up was it reading that Ralph Dinby thought Sue was pregnet ? Thats just warped humor with what happened to her.

Considering that they wanted Mary Marvel to lose her virginity and then stick her in a red costume (and even did an alternate reality where Billy and Mary were some kind of incestious couple into bondage), what does that tell you?



Yeah , well so has DC and a few other publishers. I just never cared to get them as back issues. Thats just me.

Not a problem. It's a part of comics history, is all.



Yeah..I just wonder how Nitro got to be so powerful though. Thats my main question right now.

The Wolverine tie-in arc looks like it will explore what the hell happened to Nitro. It's probably either related to the corrupt SHIELD thing or the supervillain program that big business created (as discussed in Mark Millar's Marvel Knights Spider-Man run).

Nitro's been up and down the power scale over the years. From the pathetic to giving Iron Man a tough time to Civil War #1.

[Ryan K]

Let me preface this by saying. I haven't read the rest of this thread. In fact I haven't read anything else on these boards, so if my opinion reads like arguments that people have been having for days, my apologies.

My thoughts:

I'm pissed they killed off Speedball. Acyually, I can deal with the fact they killed off Speedball. I dislike how he was written as an arrogant idiot and I hated how he was discussed about in this issue. It seems now every person in the Marvel Universe including heroes he fought along side now view him as a moron who got 900 people killed. That's worse than death IMO, thats forever tarnishing one of my favorite characters.

And furthermore, to have the events spin out of a light fun comedic book (the latest New Warriors book). I sort of like that Marvel has been balancing two extremes with their comics lately. On one hand you have the political, more "real world" takes on super heroes. Which is fine, I like a bit of that every now and then. Then you have the light funny comic books like Cable and Deadpool, Thing, She Hulk, and New Warriors. But to use the light hearted tongue in cheek events of New Warriors to set up events in a book like Civil War thats on the complete other end of the spectrum is bullshit! It completely pisses me off and just makes me feel dirty.

There's no point to killing off Speedball and the New Warriors in those beginning scenes. It works just as well if not better if the characters that cause the accident that kills 900 people are characters we've never seen before.

I could rant some more about how completely ridiculous I think the entire idea behind Civil War is too but I'm sure we've all heard enough about that. But I will say I thought the last panel with Iron Man, Richards, and YJ saying they'll take care of Cap was completely ridiculous and laughable.

*ptooey*

[XPac]

There's no point to killing off Speedball and the New Warriors in those beginning scenes. It works just as well if not better if the characters that cause the accident that kills 900 people are characters we've never seen before.


*ptooey*

Though I do sympathize for your feelings on Speedball (even though I don't feel the same way for the simple reason that I don't believe he is actually dead), I don't agree that a never before seen character would work just as well or better than having the New Warriors killed.

Inveting characters that no one (including the other character in the story) knows really won't have any impact at all. Stories just work better with familiar faces that we (and the other characters in the story) have history with. It gives us reason to actually give a dam one way or the other.

[luxshine]

Though I do sympathize for your feelings on Speedball (even though I don't feel the same way for the simple reason that I don't believe he is actually dead), I don't agree that a never before seen character would work just as well or better than having the New Warriors killed.

Inveting characters that no one (including the other character in the story) knows really won't have any impact at all. Stories just work better with familiar faces that we (and the other characters in the story) have history with. It gives us reason to actually give a dam one way or the other.

But isn't it one of the points that the group that caused this was 'unexperienced' and 'untrained'? (and I use quotes because the NW weren't either) Someone who wasn't ready for the job, and thus was as dangerous as the menaces they were fighting?

None of the NW were rookies (With the exception of Microbe, and if they had already a whole season of the show, that means the guy had *some* experience) even if they were written as such. I would have a lot easier time believing that the explosion set the whole thing in motion if they had been heroes in their first outing ever.

(Also, now that I think about it... Not only the Warriors fougth against Terrax, The Sphinix, the Direwraiths, and all those guys but the only member of the team who was in every one of those fights was Speedball. Maybe his power makes him look useless, maybe his personality isn't to everyone's liking... but that doesn't mean he's useless or unexperienced. And he shouldn't be written as such)

[Ryan K]

Though I do sympathize for your feelings on Speedball (even though I don't feel the same way for the simple reason that I don't believe he is actually dead), I don't agree that a never before seen character would work just as well or better than having the New Warriors killed.

Inveting characters that no one (including the other character in the story) knows really won't have any impact at all. Stories just work better with familiar faces that we (and the other characters in the story) have history with. It gives us reason to actually give a dam one way or the other.

Hell most people don't know who Speedball is anymore anyway.

I think it would work better in the context of this story with all the superheroes basically calling these kids idiots when (IMO) they were just written as idiots here in order to fit the story. Plus I think having say a new group of previously unheard of superheroes also adds another dimension to the story. Random kids just throwing on costumes and trying to take down super villains and the sonsequences of that.

[Will.S]

I'm pissed they killed off Speedball. Acyually, I can deal with the fact they killed off Speedball. I dislike how he was written as an arrogant idiot and I hated how he was discussed about in this issue. It seems now every person in the Marvel Universe including heroes he fought along side now view him as a moron who got 900 people killed. That's worse than death IMO, thats forever tarnishing one of my favorite characters.
Well don't jump the gun just yet until we see it all play out.


There's no point to killing off Speedball and the New Warriors in those beginning scenes. It works just as well if not better if the characters that cause the accident that kills 900 people are characters we've never seen before.
It's only "better" because that would be playing it safe. Millar did something similar to what you recommended in his Wolverine run with the hundreds of no-name villains invading the SHIELD helicarrier and I just shrugged with a big "meh".

Had it been alot more recognizable villains I think it would have had a bigger impact in showing it as a more interconnected universe as well as showing off established characters doing something pretty epic but then again alot of them were made to be fodder for Wolverine to tear up. I'm not neccessarily happy that Night Thrasher and Namorita died but I understand the reasons for it.

[XPac]

But isn't it one of the points that the group that caused this was 'unexperienced' and 'untrained'? (and I use quotes because the NW weren't either) Someone who wasn't ready for the job, and thus was as dangerous as the menaces they were fighting?

None of the NW were rookies (With the exception of Microbe, and if they had already a whole season of the show, that means the guy had *some* experience) even if they were written as such. I would have a lot easier time believing that the explosion set the whole thing in motion if they had been heroes in their first outing ever.

(Also, now that I think about it... Not only the Warriors fougth against Terrax, The Sphinix, the Direwraiths, and all those guys but the only member of the team who was in every one of those fights was Speedball. Maybe his power makes him look useless, maybe his personality isn't to everyone's liking... but that doesn't mean he's useless or unexperienced. And he shouldn't be written as such)

Note that the government isn't just asking inexperienced untrained heroes to register... it's all heroes. Even ones with some level of experience (though I don't think calling this particular version of the Warriors C list is terribly inaccurate). They're perfect in showing that even teams with some level of experience possibly need MORE training (or at least that's the governments perspective).

If this was a completely new team, many might not feel the registration is necessary since they'd assume this was merely a mistake by some randon amateur team that has not business being heroes.

NW in a lot of ways are perfect because you want a team that isn't that respected, but at the same time a team with a minimal enough experience for the government to point to them and say they're legitimately representative o of the hero community.

[AllisterH]

You should read Alias. It's probably the best Marvel title that Bendis has written for the company. Of course, since you know what happens to Jessica Jones it might not have the same impact.


Kevinroc, I truly respect your writings, but you can't be serious about Alias? When the issue with Speedball came out, I and a few others BLASTED Bendis about his mischaracterization of Speedball and the fact that Bendis was presenting his favourites (Spiderwoman and Jessica Jones) in a more flattering light. (Speedball loosing control of his "bubbles"? Please).

When I wrote that, I think everyone pooh-poohed and said "Oh, don't worry, its just for this storyline". BULLSHIT. Now you're trying to use Alias to use characterize speedball again. FUCK THAT SHIT.

Even though, in that self same issue, the fact that Robbie was actually working with the police and it was the Jessicas who were in the wrong never got mentioned after the issue......

[StoneGold]

Kevinroc, I truly respect your writings, but you can't be serious about Alias? When the issue with Speedball came out, I and a few others BLASTED Bendis about his mischaracterization of Speedball and the fact that Bendis was presenting his favourites (Spiderwoman and Jessica Jones) in a more flattering light. (Speedball loosing control of his "bubbles"? Please).

When I wrote that, I think everyone pooh-poohed and said "Oh, don't worry, its just for this storyline". BULLSHIT. Now you're trying to use Alias to use characterize speedball again. FUCK THAT SHIT.

Even though, in that self same issue, the fact that Robbie was actually working with the police and it was the Jessicas who were in the wrong never got mentioned after the issue......
To quote Captain America, watch the pottie mouth.

And if you're trying to argue that Speedball has always before now been written as a confident, mature, intelligent hero, you're going to lose. His whole appeal was that he was a ADD goofball.

[moebius]

To quote Captain America, watch the pottie mouth.

And if you're trying to argue that Speedball has always before now been written as a confident, mature, intelligent hero, you're going to lose. His whole appeal was that he was a ADD goofball.

Does anyone else find it funny that we can only refer to Speedball using drug references?

[StoneGold]

Does anyone else find it funny that we can only refer to Speedball using drug references?
There's that, too. You have to wonder, did Ditko know?

[Exodus]

(Also, now that I think about it... Not only the Warriors fougth against Terrax, The Sphinix, the Direwraiths, and all those guys but the only member of the team who was in every one of those fights was Speedball. Maybe his power makes him look useless, maybe his personality isn't to everyone's liking... but that doesn't mean he's useless or unexperienced. And he shouldn't be written as such)


Then what?

They fought a bunch of supervillans in their own book, sure but thats hardly impressive.

Considering the track record of the Avengers or the Fantastic four the New Warriors ARE rookies.

In a world with the amount of supervillans and meta human fights as the MU the New Warriors are just about on the line with the old Xforce team, and Sam is still being treated as the new kid in X-men.


-Exodus

[moebius]

I thought this book was all kinds of interesting, and the number of post agrees with me.

Pros:
-Captain America getting to be a bad ass and play against type.
-The Johnny Storm scence was well-written and very plausible.
-Good use of making the Marvel Universe a little more rational by real-world standards (I like my super-heroeing plausible).

Cons:
-The dialog. It seemed like Millar was both repeating himself and lifting dialog straight out of every 90s action movie I've ever seen ("Damn you..." "No...damn YOU...").
-Even though Maria Hill has a hard-on for superheroes, SHIELD gets written pretty one-dimensionally here. Hill talking down to Captain America?!? She's got all kinds of over-compensation issues. What did she think would happen there? Didn't she ever read Dark Knight Returns?

Oh, and it's very clear that Speedball survived. Big explosion + Kinetic Powers = not dead, but thrown far, far away from the blast.

[Madacapa]

I think that Civil War #1 was an average issue, but for Marvel it was a vast improvement. It is average when you compare it to DC's Idenity and Infinite Crisis, both of which I really liked. It was great compared to the unreadble "House of M" which I have put out of my mind; I am currently using it as toilet paper.

I will keep reading Civil War, but I have to see where the story leads. It has brought back continuity to the Marvel Universe, sometime that has been lacking for too long. It will take them a long time to catch up to DC, but at least they are on the right track.

I hope to God that Speedball is dead; I truly hate that character.

[Haunt]

Let me preface this by saying. I haven't read the rest of this thread. In fact I haven't read anything else on these boards, so if my opinion reads like arguments that people have been having for days, my apologies.

My thoughts:

I'm pissed they killed off Speedball. Acyually, I can deal with the fact they killed off Speedball. I dislike how he was written as an arrogant idiot and I hated how he was discussed about in this issue. It seems now every person in the Marvel Universe including heroes he fought along side now view him as a moron who got 900 people killed. That's worse than death IMO, thats forever tarnishing one of my favorite characters.



you're luckier than you think. Robbie isn't dead and he will grow from this. Stamford will wake him up from being that immature/arrogant idiot from the New Warriors. what you think of tarnish is actually depth being added to a character who was about as 1-dimensional as they came, imo. i wish that my favorite character had been the one to cause the Stamford accident. just think of all the attention he's going to get now. you act like he was blown up and then used as a joke in Dead-Girl Presents: X-Statix.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Then what?

They fought a bunch of supervillans in their own book, sure but thats hardly impressive.

Considering the track record of the Avengers or the Fantastic four the New Warriors ARE rookies.

In a world with the amount of supervillans and meta human fights as the MU the New Warriors are just about on the line with the old Xforce team, and Sam is still being treated as the new kid in X-men.


-Exodus


No team is gonna have the track record a team like the FF and Avengers had being a team. But the New Warriors proved themselves as solid heroes in thier time. Its just that like Alpha Flight....Marvel made them a joke and decide to screw them over in quick fashion. ;)

Cannonball under Ellis in X-Force is a vast departure on how Claremont and others wrote him. He was allowed to grow up and be a pretty good leader. Its just that others drove him back to the " Kid role " as usual. And its not worked . Lets see if Mike Carey changes things up.

[luxshine]

Then what?

They fought a bunch of supervillans in their own book, sure but thats hardly impressive.

Considering the track record of the Avengers or the Fantastic four the New Warriors ARE rookies.

In a world with the amount of supervillans and meta human fights as the MU the New Warriors are just about on the line with the old Xforce team, and Sam is still being treated as the new kid in X-men.


-Exodus

You know what? You're right.

My problem shouldn't be about how the NW are written in CW, but about how they have been written ever since his first series was over. And it's not only about the NW, but about any superhero that is not a 'first billing' member of the Avengers, FF, and the X-men, because in order to those first billing members to shine, they have to be written as rookies.

Thinking about it, I guess we NW fans are lucky that the NW weren't beaten singlehanded by Molly before CW happened.

(Actually, Runaways kind of messes NW timeline for me, since there Julie Power is old enough to live on her own, while in NW, her older brother Alex was still a minior AND a member of the NW with Julie's powers so... I better not think to much about that)

[Capt USA]

on thing that people seem to be missing, is that being anti-registration, doesn't mean you won't register. Just like being against a seat belt law, doesn't mean you will not wear your seat belt.

I see characters like the thing actually registering, but still opposing and trying to get the law reversed.

I'm surprised more people aren't upset with the characterization of the pro-registration side, It's a side that seems to support the belief that the ends justify the means, and nobody should follow a person that believes in that.

I liked the issue, but there were many issues.
1. the cap fight, was great to read, but the reasoning for it was ridiculous, as many others have mentioned, Cap hadn't done anything yet but disagree with Hill. There is no law in place, nothing for shield to aprehend him.

2. It is possible that the reason that no survivors from the new warriors was mentioned, is that they assumed everyone died and the lone survivor(probably speedball) was either knocked out of the blast or is trapped in the rubble and hasn't been discovered yet.

3. Johnny Storms comments about the New Warriors was probably the single worse characterization I have ever seen by a marvel character in an event, it was almost like DC was writing an event and how they change a characters history/personality to fit with whatever scene they needed. I expect consistent characterizations from Marvel.

4. I have no problem with Reed flipping his mind, from the rational point of view he isn't going to be able to stop the registration act, so the next best thing is to control how it is enacted and enforced.

5. even though it's been mentioned numerous times, the handling of new warriors by marvel was disgraceful. It may not change the fact that it seems I'm going to like this story, but c'mon the warriors are a much more competent team than this.

[Capt USA]

Another thing I forgot to mention, is the way this comic handled the new warriors perception in the marvel universe.

Just because the New Warriors are a c-rated team, and aren't popular in the real world, the fact is if they had a one season reality tv show, then they would be more well known that a-rated heroes like wolverine etc. They are acting like the marvel universe has the same perception and knowledge of the heroes that the real world readers have of the heroes.

I mean speedball could be as popular as kelli pickler or at least the 'she bang' guy.

[Haunt]

Another thing I forgot to mention, is the way this comic handled the new warriors perception in the marvel universe.

Just because the New Warriors are a c-rated team, and aren't popular in the real world, the fact is if they had a one season reality tv show, then they would be more well known that a-rated heroes like wolverine etc. They are acting like the marvel universe has the same perception and knowledge of the heroes that the real world readers have of the heroes.

I mean speedball could be as popular as kelli pickler or at least the 'she bang' guy.


that's just it. who really respects Kelli Pickler or Joe Millionaire? they are lucky no-talent chumps. if Speedball is the Kelli Pickler of the Marvel Universe, you can think of Captain America as a Michael Jordan or a George Clooney. it's that big of a difference. legitimate celebrity vs 15 minutes of fame reality tv show star.

[Capt USA]

that's just it. who really respects Kelli Pickler or Joe Millionaire? they are lucky no-talent chumps. if Speedball is the Kelli Pickler of the Marvel Universe, you can think of Captain America as a Michael Jordan or a George Clooney. it's that big of a difference. legitimate celebrity vs 15 minutes of fame reality tv show star.


I agree about the respect thing, but the reporters comment was "who or what in the heck is a speedball" in the spiderman comic. I'm imagining that Speedball would be a little better known.

[Kevinroc]

You know what? You're right.

My problem shouldn't be about how the NW are written in CW, but about how they have been written ever since his first series was over. And it's not only about the NW, but about any superhero that is not a 'first billing' member of the Avengers, FF, and the X-men, because in order to those first billing members to shine, they have to be written as rookies.

Thinking about it, I guess we NW fans are lucky that the NW weren't beaten singlehanded by Molly before CW happened.

(Actually, Runaways kind of messes NW timeline for me, since there Julie Power is old enough to live on her own, while in NW, her older brother Alex was still a minior AND a member of the NW with Julie's powers so... I better not think to much about that)

That's right. It happens. When talking about tearing a team apart, the team is often written as horrible rookies. Look at Young Justice and Titans during Graduation Day.

Despite the fact that the members of YJ did a lot of things and together took on vast threats mightier than what NW fans have referenced when defending those characters. YJ took on a 5d imp, a being almost as powerful as The Spectre, Darkseid, Despero (a threat to the entire Justice League) and they were written like they just picked up their costumes five minutes ago in Graduation Day.

[Doom Hammer]

Why does everyone think that what happened to the New Warriors was so bad?

I mean, yeah, they were kind of irresponsible and only in it for their show. But come on, those were four villains they took out. They kicked ass! And they would have won, too, if Nitro didn't bust out the super-secret power upgrade no one knew he had. If the Avengers had gone up against him in the same situation, and Captain America had tackled him against a bus, guess what? The Avengers are dead now, too.

So, "disgraceful"? No. It's a tragic accident no one could have foreseen, and the public is reacting to the trauma by blaming ALL of the heroes instead of the one villain responsible.

[XPac]

I think that Civil War #1 was an average issue, but for Marvel it was a vast improvement. It is average when you compare it to DC's Idenity and Infinite Crisis, both of which I really liked. It was great compared to the unreadble "House of M" which I have put out of my mind; I am currently using it as toilet paper.

I will keep reading Civil War, but I have to see where the story leads. It has brought back continuity to the Marvel Universe, sometime that has been lacking for too long. It will take them a long time to catch up to DC, but at least they are on the right track.

I hope to God that Speedball is dead; I truly hate that character.

Okay, I'll give you Identity Crisis... but Civil War only being Average compared to Infinate Crisis? Ouch.

Granted this is all just subjective opinion... but I thought Infinate Crisis turned out to be one big relativatively pointless mess. Though Civil War has only just started, and may end up the same way, I think Civil War at least at the start is coming off as a much better written piece (it's Millar afterall, so that shouldn't be shocking).

[JeffreyWKramer]

So, "disgraceful"? No. It's a tragic accident no one could have foreseen, and the public is reacting to the trauma by blaming ALL of the heroes instead of the one villain responsible.

No, I'd call haplessly flying a villain known to explode into a school bus parked outside a playground full of kids to be pretty disgraceful and stupid. That's the part of this I really don't buy - the New Warriors are smarter than that, and experienced enough to not make so stupid a rookie mistake as that.

I'm willing to let that slide so long as the rest of the story doesn't involve such stupid lapses, but I really wish they'd launched this storyline with something that made a bit more sense - maybe having the same outcome result from the actions of a single hero who really was pretty much a rookie, someone like Gravity, perhaps.

[Capt USA]

Why does everyone think that what happened to the New Warriors was so bad?

I mean, yeah, they were kind of irresponsible and only in it for their show. But come on, those were four villains they took out. They kicked ass! And they would have won, too, if Nitro didn't bust out the super-secret power upgrade no one knew he had. If the Avengers had gone up against him in the same situation, and Captain America had tackled him against a bus, guess what? The Avengers are dead now, too.

So, "disgraceful"? No. It's a tragic accident no one could have foreseen, and the public is reacting to the trauma by blaming ALL of the heroes instead of the one villain responsible.


We aren't talking about disgraceful actions from the new warriors, we are talking about the complete and utter lack of true characterizations by them. They are way more experienced team to get beat like that, they were made an utter joke because they wouldn't have made those mistakes if they were treated the way they were originally written. They were killed off when they didn't have to be. I mean Johnny Storm slept with Namorita, why in the heck was he acting like he didn't care about her death? I mean if this was a dc crossover, I'm perfectly fine with the lack of characterization to forward the story, but I actually expect competency from a Marvel storyline.


It is a small point, I admit, but seriously the Warriors were treated like chump change for this story, and several good characters were killed off (my guess is speedball is still alive, but it still leaves namorita and night thrasher dead...nobody is going to miss microbe)

[XPac]

Just thinking about the mistakes the NW made here...

Outside of the location of the fight (which was a HUGE mistake), I think the only error made as far as the execution of the fight it self was that Namorita didn't hit Nitro hard enough. That's a bad mistake... but not one I suppose any given hero couldn't make on a bad day if he or she is unfamiliar with the person he's fighting.

Case in point, Superman holds back when he's hitting almost any opponent he's unfamiliar with. As experienced as he is, I can actually see Superman making that mistake. There are plenty of times we see a hero hitting someone without enough force to knock that person out, even thought they SHOULD be strong enough. It's still a mistake... but it's not an inhumanly rare one.

Marvel lives in a world where villians can actually sue the heroes for unecessary roughness (as we have seen in SHe-Hulk). For heroes being filmed on a TV show, they have even MORE accountability. They more than any other heroes need to subdue their enemies with the miminal about of force possible.

Again, not defending the NW in any way. They screwed up, and they screwed up hard. But I do nonethleess believe this is a believable mistake, even for someone with moderate experience like Namorita (though ignoring the location of the fight is a different matter entirely).

[Capt USA]

the new warriors mistakes are bigger than not hitting nitro hard enough.

1. they knew they were outclassed, speedball himself said it.
2. as mentioned, the location of the fight was bad.
3. the timing, they got made because speedball was telling namorita to go put makeup on.
4. Namoritas handling of the fight with nitro "stand up so I can hit you again and don't be exploding that will make me hit you harder" Clearly shows she was more concerned with beating him than apprehending him, and shows she knew about his powers, maybe not the extent, but definately what he could do.

This is what is leading to public outrage, mind you I think it's extremely contrived public outrage.

[Doom Hammer]

No, I'd call haplessly flying a villain known to explode into a school bus parked outside a playground full of kids to be pretty disgraceful and stupid. That's the part of this I really don't buy - the New Warriors are smarter than that, and experienced enough to not make so stupid a rookie mistake as that.

It's a fair point, but it's not like she brought him to the school...he was already there, she just made him stop running.

Yeah, getting him away from the school should be a priority, but nobody could predict he was going to react like that. So although she made a mistake, I'd say it was a dumb mistake that got turned into something awful.

Than again, I'm not a huge NW fan, so I'm not too critical.

But yeah, good point about the characterization, Capt. USA. I hope that will be explained at some point. There's something to be said for Johnny bottling himself up and moving on like a good little playboy, but I wouldn't mind seeing a scene where he breaks a little. Kind of like, "I deserved this," once he wakes up.

[JeffreyWKramer]

It's a fair point, but it's not like she brought him to the school...he was already there, she just made him stop running.

Nitro was running down the street in front of the bus. From her vantage point in the sky, Namorita would clearly have been able to see the playground full of kids and the schoolhouse on the other side of the bus. Even excusing for her having no idea Nitro had inexplicably become so powerful, she could have seen that there were kids within no more than 20 feet of the bus. As such, it was a pretty retarded idea to slam the exploding superhero into the bus.

Things she might have done instead include slamming him straight down into/through the street, or flying in behind him and tossing him somewhere away from the bus/playground/school. Instead, she acted like the first supehero with an IQ smaller than her bra size.

[XPac]

the new warriors mistakes are bigger than not hitting nitro hard enough.

1. they knew they were outclassed, speedball himself said it.
2. as mentioned, the location of the fight was bad.
3. the timing, they got made because speedball was telling namorita to go put makeup on.
4. Namoritas handling of the fight with nitro "stand up so I can hit you again and don't be exploding that will make me hit you harder" Clearly shows she was more concerned with beating him than apprehending him, and shows she knew about his powers, maybe not the extent, but definately what he could do.

This is what is leading to public outrage, mind you I think it's extremely contrived public outrage.

Well the thing is they really weren't outclassed. They were powerful enough to beat them. It was just a matter of Namorita hitting him hard enough to do so when she had the opportunity. They were powerful enough to get it done in my book.

Really everything would have been just fine if she hit him a wee bit harder.

That being said, the fight should have never taken place at all given the location... I can't give them a free pass for that one.

[Will.S]

I'm surprised more people aren't upset with the characterization of the pro-registration side, It's a side that seems to support the belief that the ends justify the means, and nobody should follow a person that believes in that. When did they say that?

So far we've seen Reed and Iron Man's stance on it in the Illuminati Special before Civil War but they never said that the ends justify the means nor has Hank Pym said anything along those lines.


1. the cap fight, was great to read, but the reasoning for it was ridiculous, as many others have mentioned, Cap hadn't done anything yet but disagree with Hill. There is no law in place, nothing for shield to aprehend him. For me, it seemed like less to do with the registration act and more like Maria Hill holding a grudge against Cap and the New Avengers since issue #1 especially now that she has the higher ground.



1. they knew they were outclassed, speedball himself said it. Nope, Microbe was the one who said it and they pretty much kicked everyone's asses minus Nitro.

[Capt USA]

When did they say that?

So far we've seen Reed and Iron Man's stance on it in the Illuminati Special before Civil War but they never said that the ends justify the means nor has Hank Pym said anything along those lines.

For me, it seemed like less to do with the registration act and more like Maria Hill holding a grudge against Cap and the New Avengers since issue #1 especially now that she has the higher ground.

Nope, Microbe was the one who said it and they pretty much kicked everyone's asses minus Nitro.


they didn't need to say that, Agent Hill basically showed that with her actions. Having a corrupt shield involved in this basically hurts the side of pro-registration. These are bad people who do believe the ends justify the means and having them involved makes anyone on their side look bad.

btw, I'm pretty sure that Hank Pym is the one that is going to go a little overboard on this one. I think he is enjoying this opportunity to test himself against the other heroes. I'm getting a real bad 'vibe' off of hank in this issue.


yep, messed up on that microbe/speedball comment.

[Will.S]

they didn't need to say that, Agent Hill basically showed that with her actions. Having a corrupt shield involved in this basically hurts the side of pro-registration. These are bad people who do believe the ends justify the means and having them involved makes anyone on their side look bad.
I agree but time will tell on how Millar will handle the currupt aspect of SHIELD since Iron Man knows fully well what they're is up to. I don't think SHIELD's corruption will seep into any of the heroes since they're going with their beliefs alongside with th registration act but we'll see.

Brian Bendis and Tom Brevoort mention the whole corrupt SHIELD as playing a role in CW so I'm curious as to how that will continue. It basically seems similar to the situation that the villains are in since both SHIELD and MU villains can take advantage of the registration act to take out or detain anyone they didn't like.

[Arilou]

I'm interested in the fact that Strange was basically not covered by this :p

I guess even the feds know not to mess with the Sorcerer Supreme.

EDIT: And the Watcher appearing was just priceless. Especially how some of them were just like "Oh shit, not this again."

[The Fury]

Finally read this and though it was very good, liked the art and the story was good as well, but still only early stages, but the Cap A fight was great.

I liked that some X-men were involved, I was qworried they'd be left out. Still unsure where many of them lie yet though.

EDIT: Added thought, Once Cap refused escaped, SHIELD were ordered to fire on him, now they sure looked like real bullets, now if one had hit him/killed him, thing might have changed right there. No matter how the anger for superheroes currently, SHIELD kill Cap America, well, things will get out of hand.

Also, what would Sharon Carter and Dugan have to say about this when they hear it?, would they leave SHIELD. They are both very close friends with Cap after all.

[Sandy Hausler]

5. even though it's been mentioned numerous times, the handling of new warriors by marvel was disgraceful. It may not change the fact that it seems I'm going to like this story, but c'mon the warriors are a much more competent team than this.

Yeah, she should have used the Young Avengers instead. Those guys really ARE rookies.<g>

Sandy Hausler

[XPac]

Yeah, she should have used the Young Avengers instead. Those guys really ARE rookies.<g>

Sandy Hausler

There's no way in hell they should have killed off the Young Avengers.

They have an incredibly well written book that's selling pretty well and at least in my opinion is one of the hotter books out there in Marvel. New Warriors can't really say the same thing (and the New Warriors that Do have the most potential were frankly taken off the book and sparred anyways).

[XPac]

Finally read this and though it was very good, liked the art and the story was good as well, but still only early stages, but the Cap A fight was great.

I liked that some X-men were involved, I was qworried they'd be left out. Still unsure where many of them lie yet though.

EDIT: Added thought, Once Cap refused escaped, SHIELD were ordered to fire on him, now they sure looked like real bullets, now if one had hit him/killed him, thing might have changed right there. No matter how the anger for superheroes currently, SHIELD kill Cap America, well, things will get out of hand.

Also, what would Sharon Carter and Dugan have to say about this when they hear it?, would they leave SHIELD. They are both very close friends with Cap after all.


SHIELD already fired on and nearly blew up the Avengers during their Savage land story arc. I imagine Hill just spins these things well enough that she can get away with it. Though I'm curious to see how anyone that actually KNOWS Captain America would legitimately assume he did something deserving of being fired upon like that.

[Sandy Hausler]

There's no way in hell they should have killed off the Young Avengers.

I enjoyed making that Young Avengers crack. While I don't really think they should be killed, the book is pretty mediocre, but then a lot of stuff that goes out is.

Sandy Hausler

[ironmanawesomeforever]

http://photos-666.facebook.com/images/object/61/98/n2203791666_23473.jpg

It's true, get over it!:mad:

[Tony Starkz]

http://photos-666.facebook.com/images/object/61/98/n2203791666_23473.jpg

It's true, get over it!:mad:

Umm......yeaaaaaaaaaaa:rolleyes:

[XPac]

I enjoyed making that Young Avengers crack. While I don't really think they should be killed, the book is pretty mediocre, but then a lot of stuff that goes out is.

Sandy Hausler

Well, we can agree to disagree about Young Avengers being mediocre. I think it's one of the freshest main stream titles Marvel has put out in a while.

[Beast]

I enjoyed making that Young Avengers crack. While I don't really think they should be killed, the book is pretty mediocre, but then a lot of stuff that goes out is.

Sandy Hausler
Going to have to disagree with you. It's one of the best books Marvel's putting out right now. They really need to get the book back on schedule though. :)

[kidpernicious]

I enjoy Young Avengers but one of the hugest gripes I have about it is the ridiculous notion that instead of this Avengers Failsafe Program searching out qualified, experienced, established heroes to make a new Avengers team, which, you know, makes sense....it actually just gathers up a bunch of kids with their heads up their asses as far as superheroics is concerned, and tells them to go be Avengers. Yeah. Right. Okay.

That in mind, I'd rather blow them up than the New Warriors, if you needed a team to get all blowed up.

[Kevinroc]

I enjoy Young Avengers but one of the hugest gripes I have about it is the ridiculous notion that instead of this Avengers Failsafe Program searching out qualified, experienced, established heroes to make a new Avengers team, which, you know, makes sense....it actually just gathers up a bunch of kids with their heads up their asses as far as superheroics is concerned, and tells them to go be Avengers. Yeah. Right. Okay.

That in mind, I'd rather blow them up than the New Warriors, if you needed a team to get all blowed up.

The Young Avengers sell. The New Warriors hadn't been selling for at least 10 years.

Since The Young Avengers were The Vision's fail-safe program, it could be assumed that The Vision was planning on training them. Since that didn't quite work out, we've seen The New Avengers training them.

So in terms of a financial perspective (which is where decisions are made in regards to big company wide crossovers), it makes sense to blow up a few members of The New Warriors rather than blow up The Young Avengers.

[kidpernicious]

The Young Avengers sell. The New Warriors hadn't been selling for at least 10 years.

Since The Young Avengers were The Vision's fail-safe program, it could be assumed that The Vision was planning on training them. Since that didn't quite work out, we've seen The New Avengers training them.

So in terms of a financial perspective (which is where decisions are made in regards to big company wide crossovers), it makes sense to blow up a few members of The New Warriors rather than blow up The Young Avengers.
That's absolutely understood, money's always the bottom line in this biz, I was just stating my personal preference.

[Slumber Hulk]

We've made a lot of why Nita stopped Nitro where she did. From her vantage maybe he was running towards the school and putting the bus between the nutjob and the kids seemed the best options.

Still she could have swooped the other direction and knocked him away. But if Nitro wanted to kill those kids who could stop him? Quasar (is he gone?) maybe. Or the Invisible Woman for sure but the FF are always to busy in space to bother rounding up excaped criminals.

I think the oversight here is why were the New Warriors the only ones out there rounding up excaped supervillians? Where were the Avengers, the FF, and the X-Men before Nitro blew up?

[Haunt]

We've made a lot of why Nita stopped Nitro where she did. From her vantage maybe he was running towards the school and putting the bus between the nutjob and the kids seemed the best options.

Still she could have swooped the other direction and knocked him away. But if Nitro wanted to kill those kids who could stop him? Quasar (is he gone?) maybe. Or the Invisible Woman for sure but the FF are always to busy in space to bother rounding up excaped criminals.

I think the oversight here is why were the New Warriors the only ones out there rounding up excaped supervillians? Where were the Avengers, the FF, and the X-Men before Nitro blew up?


maybe if Baldwin had practiced more with his powers, he could have stopped it (extending his kinetic field). at any rate, real stupid move to throw Nitro up against the bus. even if the blast didn't harm them, the flying bus might have.

[XPac]

We've made a lot of why Nita stopped Nitro where she did. From her vantage maybe he was running towards the school and putting the bus between the nutjob and the kids seemed the best options.

Still she could have swooped the other direction and knocked him away. But if Nitro wanted to kill those kids who could stop him? Quasar (is he gone?) maybe. Or the Invisible Woman for sure but the FF are always to busy in space to bother rounding up excaped criminals.

I think the oversight here is why were the New Warriors the only ones out there rounding up excaped supervillians? Where were the Avengers, the FF, and the X-Men before Nitro blew up?

If Nitro wanted to kill those kids then Nita should have stopped him by simply hitting him harder. That was her tactical mistake... she's strong enough to KO him but didn't. An unconscious Nitro is a beaten Nitro.

[Will.S]

I think the oversight here is why were the New Warriors the only ones out there rounding up excaped supervillians? Where were the Avengers, the FF, and the X-Men before Nitro blew up? The X-Men and the FF are almost always tied up in their own little world (X-Men especially) so the New Avengers would have been the ones to call on this job since Nitro escaped from the Raft too and also features in the Avengers Secret Files. He was definitely the most dangerous target there since the NA have him on their list and funny enough, Iron Man makes a comment on him in the entry:

Iron Man: Nitro's insanity is the only thing holding him back from being one of the most dangerous super-villains on Earth. When you consider that even in his most unbalanced state, he inflicted the attack that ultimately took the life of Captain Mar-Vell, you have to fear what he might accomplish at full mental capacity.

The other villains seemed to have escaped from elsewhere or they just layed low with Nitro until they got something going.

[Haunt]

Sentry could have just thrown the guy into space.

[XPac]

The X-Men and the FF are almost always tied up in their own little world (X-Men especially) so the New Avengers would have been the ones to call on this job since Nitro escaped from the Raft too and also features in the Avengers Secret Files. He was definitely the most dangerous target there since the NA have him on their list and funny enough, Iron Man makes a comment on him in the entry:

Iron Man: Nitro's insanity is the only thing holding him back from being one of the most dangerous super-villains on Earth. When you consider that even in his most unbalanced state, he inflicted the attack that ultimately took the life of Captain Mar-Vell, you have to fear what he might accomplish at full mental capacity.

The other villains seemed to have escaped from elsewhere or they just layed low with Nitro until they got something going.


I suppose calling the New Avengers is exactly what they should have done once they found out Nitro was there and this was a bigger issue than they first thought.

The NA can't be everywhere... especially these days with Cage trying to expand their role as heroes. But maybe if you're Nightthrasher and you remember being able to tackle Juggernaut and Terrax is your teams glory days (either of which would probably have eaten the current team alive) Nitro was a threat they could handle. And I'll still maintain they were powerful enough to handle this situation... they just screwed up.

[Will.S]

I suppose calling the New Avengers is exactly what they should have done once they found out Nitro was there and this was a bigger issue than they first thought.

The NA can't be everywhere... especially these days with Cage trying to expand their role as heroes.
Yeah I was actually going to say that too, they aren't as international and set-up as they were when they were pro-active so they could be doing something else while this was happening. In fact I think in this month's Amazing Spider-Man, Peter and Tony are on their way back from the congressional hearing and then they hear of what happened.


But maybe if you're Nightthrasher and you remember being able to tackle Juggernaut and Terrax is your teams glory days (either of which would probably have eaten the current team alive) Nitro was a threat they could handle. And I'll still maintain they were powerful enough to handle this situation... they just screwed up.
Definitely agree with you there.

[Capt USA]

And I'll still maintain they were powerful enough to handle this situation... they just screwed up.


isn't that the reason for the outrage mostly? They may have had the powers but they didn't use them properly or exercise caution.

[XPac]

isn't that the reason for the outrage mostly? They may have had the powers but they didn't use them properly or exercise caution.

Basically yeah. Which is why the NW were the perfect team to serve up the registration for the public.

Regardless of how you feel about the registration, the pro side does have some valid points about it. For teams like the New Warriors, I think perhaps they could have benefited from training from the government. It's when they're suddenly asked to beat up other heroes by a corrupt SHIELD that you start having doubts about it.

[The Recluse]

Going into Civil War, I thought it had the potential to be a really cool story. Lots of tension between longtime allies, lots of indecision from various heroes, and plenty of interesting philosophical arguments on both sides. Instead, we got a story with a "cut to the chase" feel to it that saw the heroes eschew meaningful debate, quickly take sides, and engage in premature confrontations. Honestly, the book read like a comicbook version of a dumb action movie. I love Millar but part of me wonders if he was the right guy to handle this project. I can think of various other writers who would probably do a better job of balancing action with the sort of character/story moments necessary to pull this off in the right way. He's a great writer...but his weaknesses are really showing here.

[Haunt]

Going into Civil War, I thought it had the potential to be a really cool story. Lots of tension between longtime allies, lots of indecision from various heroes, and plenty of interesting philosophical arguments on both sides. Instead, we got a story with a "cut to the chase" feel to it that saw the heroes eschew meaningful debate, quickly take sides, and engage in premature confrontations.

but that's exactly what happened at comicbookresource forums. we read it and quickly decided who we were backing. and we've been hashing it out ever since only because we don't have super powers or an arena to fight in. :)

[The Recluse]

but that's exactly what happened at comicbookresource forums. we read it and quickly decided who we were backing. and we've been hashing it out ever since only because we don't have super powers or an arena to fight in. :)I think that a realistic portrayal of this situation would involve a bit more debate. Shit, Cap's a national hero but, because he voices opposition to a law that hasn't even been enacted yet, a worldwide peacekeeping taskforce seeks to detain him? Then, he goes underground and his longtime allies align with his enemies to take him down? Makes no sense. Seems like an example of lazy writing...or an attempt to give fans a lot of bang for the buck at the expense of the plot.

[Nomad]

It's issue one. Give it time to unfold. If I jumped to conclusions every time I read the first issue of an arc, I'd only be right about the outcome 80% of the time;)

[Will.S]

It's issue one. Give it time to unfold. If I jumped to conclusions every time I read the first issue of an arc, I'd only be right about the outcome 80% of the time;)
Yeah pretty much. While I'm sure things will go well underway with issue #2 Millar still has a good 6 issues to flesh out as many people as he can.

[tchungsp]

I read the first one but really I don't like the way they use new warriors and the way story is told, I really think it is not a very good story actually I am thinking did they really need to break the heroes into two side? I just don't get it, is this story really need it ?

[Harlock]

No comic book story is really needed. It's fiction. It's purely for entertainment. If you don't find it entertaining, then look to another comic for entertainment.

[cable guy]

Hey, your entitled to your opinion.

I was skeptical at first. I happen to love it now though. And the more I think about it... it really makes sense.

[Rokk]

I'm enjoying Civil War. But, I can see where you are coming from. If you are a huge fan of the New Warriors and don't really enjoy a hero v. hero storyline, then this definately is not the title for you. This story is not supposed to be anything universe shattering like Infinite Crisis. Nor is it trying to be as thought provoking and innovative as The Watchmen. Civil War is just supposed to be what Millar does best. A blockbuster action storyline designed purely for entertainment.

[josh straightedge]

I really hope that Speedball is dead. With Alpha Flight biting it earlier this year, this could be a great year for all the characters I hate to die.

As far as Civil War was though, I really enjoyed it. Cap's a bad ass and hopefully there's not some villain behind the entire thing. As long as it's written more to the point of one side not being better, then that's better. I can see after one issue that there's very valid points on both sides.

[Haunt]

I really hope that Speedball is dead. With Alpha Flight biting it earlier this year, this could be a great year for all the characters I hate to die.

bad karma. wouldn't want to be you, man.

[Beast]

I really hope that Speedball is dead. With Alpha Flight biting it earlier this year, this could be a great year for all the characters I hate to die.
In return, we'll all hope that you're favorite characters die a horrible flaming death. :D

[Exodus]

I think that a realistic portrayal of this situation would involve a bit more debate. Shit, Cap's a national hero but, because he voices opposition to a law that hasn't even been enacted yet, a worldwide peacekeeping taskforce seeks to detain him? Then, he goes underground and his longtime allies align with his enemies to take him down? Makes no sense. Seems like an example of lazy writing...or an attempt to give fans a lot of bang for the buck at the expense of the plot.


I completly disagree.

Captain America is a man of action, not of words, same goes for all of the superheroes.

They are ppl used to dealing with issues with their fists, not with their mouth. (unless their power is sonic)


Seeing someone potentially try to undermine everything u have done by trying to make a u and everyone u work with into a police task force, devaluing completly the noble effort and bravery involved in the first place, must be infuriating.

How does Cap, or any avenger deal with his frustration problems? count to ten? no, they bust some heads.


It might sound juvenile to us as we live in a world where ppl tend to want to hear the terrorists demands before jumping at them from a flying jetplane.

But to ppl who live the lives they live, this makes perfect sense. The FIRST thing they would do is get mad, take sides and fight anyone that got in their way, THEN theyd start talking.


And i cant believe everyone is still attacking Agent Hill, She is the commanding officer of a military instalation, she has the legal right to detain ANYONE in any manner she sees fit for 48 hours on american soil. (or longer if u take them to Guantanamo)

She felt detaining Cap at this time, then reporting to her superiors was the way to go, as it would give her task force cred in the eyes of the politicians. Something shes been after for a long time considering whom she is trying to replace.


-Exodus

[Deathstroke]

I just read the issue today.

My thoughts on why Captain America so quickly became the leader of the resistance.

I think he thought "I helped stop one fascist nightmare, I'm not about to be party to helping another one."

I know that the resistance will end up losing to the government, because there's no way Marvel would allow a story to end with the government and the general ungrateful public to be shown as being wrong with lasting consequences, but I hope when they lose some galactic threat shows up. Then the government and the great ungrateful and undeserving public get told to screw off.

[Dark Savant]

If it ends this way I would be very upset, turning MU US into a fascist state, hell no!

[En Sabah Nur...]

As a mainstream Marvel book, it's pretty good. Still not "best" - I don't think this is likely to surpass stuff like the Dark Phoenix saga, Miller's DAREDEVIL, BATMAN: YEAR ONE, the first year of RUNAWAYS, the better Stan/Jack or Stan/Steve stuff or Simonson's THOR, for example - but so far, it seems pretty good. Say, YOUNG AVENGERS good. Which isn't bad at all, even if it's not "best ever."


it's all about opinion and yours isn't the law. if he thinks it's some oft he best stuff out then that's his opinion. Sandman isn't THAT amazing, not some wow oh my god my life changed shit. Besides not everyone is into the same styles and themes. Not everyone wants to read about some fantasty metaphorical goth emo jibber jabber.

[Mark Thorson]

Cap's a national hero but, because he voices opposition to a law that hasn't even been enacted yet, a worldwide peacekeeping taskforce seeks to detain him?

I really hope that gets explained, because if not, that's a terribly big plot hole. It's basically saying S.H.I.E.L.D. is as much of a vigilante force as the metas that wind up not registering.

[Sandy Hausler]

it's all about opinion and yours isn't the law. if he thinks it's some oft he best stuff out then that's his opinion. Sandman isn't THAT amazing, not some wow oh my god my life changed shit. Besides not everyone is into the same styles and themes. Not everyone wants to read about some fantasty metaphorical goth emo jibber jabber.

Uh, actually Jeff's opinion is law in these parts. Didn't you get the handbook?

Sandy Hausler

[XPac]

She felt detaining Cap at this time, then reporting to her superiors was the way to go, as it would give her task force cred in the eyes of the politicians. Something shes been after for a long time considering whom she is trying to replace.


-Exodus

And this was an example of why the woman probably doesn't deserve cred she craves ... she couldn't get it done.

Could the person she replaced have done a better job? Maybe, maybe not... but then the person she replaced probably wouldn't have had to do it in the first place.

[Will.S]

Here's something interesting.

The Sentry arc in New Avengers took place in Hartford Conneticut whereas the New Warriors incident happened in Stamford Conneticut. In a way I'm surprised with the Void not killing everything in sight but then again the Illuminati and all the Marvel Superheroes held it down better in containing Robert within a forcefield and trying to stop the Void part of Robert's psyche.

[Doom Hammer]

Here's something interesting.

The Sentry arc in New Avengers took place in Hartford Conneticut whereas the New Warriors incident happened in Stamford Conneticut. In a way I'm surprised with the Void not killing everything in sight but then again the Illuminati and all the Marvel Superheroes held it down better in containing Robert within a forcefield and trying to stop the Void part of Robert's psyche.

And when you rearrange the letters of the two towns, sans the "ford", is spells Shamratt.

I think that speaks for itself.

[Will.S]

And when you rearrange the letters of the two towns, sans the "ford", is spells Shamratt.

I think that speaks for itself.
Haha, indeed :D

[bushboy]

I really liked this issue. My only problem is, the side that my favoite hero is on, isn't the side I think is better. O well, look forward to seeing the big changes.

[Chris Thomas]

I am not a huge marvel reader anymore--but millar intrigues me and rarely dissapoints. I thought the issue was very good. good dialogue, excellent art. nice to see cap kicking some a'.

[Guts/Batman]

I dunno how to feel about this issue...

The concepts are DS worthy but the writing is good. I'm around for at least another issue...

We have the New Warriors being idiots. Captain America kicking ass. Tony Stark being a total Benedict Arnold. I have no history with the acting head of SHIELD but she is already pissing me off.

I wonder how many people in the US Government know that Doom is back...

[Stagier]

why is issue 2 over a month away? i thought this was a monthly book?

[steve2275]

why is issue 2 over a month away? i thought this was a monthly book?
becaus it started THIS MONTH :p

[Kevinroc]

becaus it started THIS MONTH :p

But the second issue isn't slated for release in the first week in June.

[steve2275]

Going into Civil War Instead, we got a story with a "cut to the chase" feel to it that saw the heroes eschew meaningful debate, quickly take sides, and engage in premature confrontations.

intresting how a lot of people want those kinda stories

[Syzygy]

Let's assume for a second that Speedball did in fact survive, since he bloody well should have. Reed should have worked that fact out... but I can totally see him neglecting to mention it to the government.

If people find out that Speedball is alive, he's going to have millions of people wanting to crucify him. As long as everyone thinks he's dead, he can be spared that pain. Reed and Tony are supporting registration not because they necessarily believe in it, but because they want to limit the damage it causes. Reed might honestly think that there's nothing to be gained by revealing that Speedball is alive, and it would ruin his life.

I agree--except you should have said "ruined even more", since after Stamford, Speedball's life is already ruined.

Peace,
Syzygy

[steve2275]

But the second issue isn't slated for release in the first week in June.
u do know that this :p is MAY right?

[cable guy]

But the second issue isn't slated for release in the first week in June.

Because the fourth week falls on the 31st of May. Technically that's a month, but...

The first week of June is 5 wednesdays away, but they still consider that monthly. Because it is the first week of the next month.

[Brian M.]

You know I'm really happy that when Marvel gets a big event going they respect who is charge of the X-Men. It was nice seeing Cyclops at that meetings. Usually it's just dam Wolverine but w/ HoM and now Civil War I'm gald to see Cyclops is getting some recongination.

[steve2275]

You know I'm really happy that when Marvel gets a big event going they respect who is charge of the X-Men. It was nice seeing Cyclops at that meetings. Usually it's just dam Wolverine but w/ HoM and now Civil War I'm gald to see Cyclops is getting some recongination.but which side is he on

[Crimson]

But the second issue isn't slated for release in the first week in June.

And this came out in the first week of may... it comes out once a month, not once every 4 weeks.

[Will.S]

but which side is he on
Cyclops will be anti-registration from what I've seen of covers and interviews.

[Deathstroke]

Cyclops will be anti-registration from what I've seen of covers and interviews.


Considering how mutants are treated already in the MU, I'd be horrified if any mutant supports registration.

[mattspideyrocks!]

Considering how mutants are treated already in the MU, I'd be horrified if any mutant supports registration.

Rumors are that Colossus will. God knows why but that's what's being said.

[Will.S]

Considering how mutants are treated already in the MU, I'd be horrified if any mutant supports registration.
Yeah I dunno how they'll handle the mutants supporting registration so they would have to have a good reason to do so although Colossus has shifted alliances before.

[Deathstroke]

Rumors are that Colossus will. God knows why but that's what's being said.

Then I hope he dies for real this time.

[Deathstroke]

Yeah I dunno how they'll handle the mutants supporting registration so they would have to have a good reason to do so although Colossus has shifted alliances before.


There is no good reason, so any mutants supporting the registration are doubly traitorous.

[kidpernicious]

There is no good reason, so any mutants supporting the registration are doubly traitorous.
I think it's been suggested Bishop will be pro-registration. Think I saw a cover where he seems to be placed opposite Cyclops, alluding to them being on different sides. I could see it happen... if we're completely disregarding that the future he calls home was such a craphole directly because of mutant registration.

[stillanerd]

I think it's been suggested Bishop will be pro-registration. Think I saw a cover where he seems to be placed opposite Cyclops, alluding to them being on different sides. I could see it happen... if we're completely disregarding that the future he calls home was such a craphole directly because of mutant registration.

Well, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_(comics)) has it completely opposite (Cyclops pro-registration and Bishop anti-registration, which makes far more sense) based on the same promo art. Of course, they also have Invisible Woman as Anti-Registration, but it looks like based on Civil War #1 and promo art for August's Fantastaic Four #540, she's siding with her hubby.

[mistervader]

How do you guys feel about making the comparison of New Warriors = Booster and Blue Beetle?

I got that vibe from them, although of course, the JLA with BG and BB was funny, and the result of the NW fiasco wasn't...

Still, I know some grim moments came from the JLA bit, too, but I'm just thinking aloud right now.

[Haunt]

How do you guys feel about making the comparison of New Warriors = Booster and Blue Beetle?

I got that vibe from them, although of course, the JLA with BG and BB was funny, and the result of the NW fiasco wasn't...

Still, I know some grim moments came from the JLA bit, too, but I'm just thinking aloud right now.


i think there's more of a comparison between Blue Beetle and Nighthawk. but i may be the only one who sees it.

[Mia]

I've been slowly been sucked back into Marvel books (after a long drought). And I gotta say that I really enjoyed this book a lot. I've added it to my pull list along with Front Line and Spiderman. This is the kind of comic book reading I love. Political intrigue. Take notes DC!

[XPac]

i think there's more of a comparison between Blue Beetle and Nighthawk. but i may be the only one who sees it.

I can sort of see it. Rich light hearted guy turned B list superhero... sort of what you get if you were to mix Spiderman and Batman in a blender.

Hopefully Blue Beatles treatment in IC won't give Millar any ideas for Nighthawk. Poor Kyle does have expendable written over him (at least outside the context of Fabian using him in TBolts).

[Exodus]

How do you guys feel about making the comparison of New Warriors = Booster and Blue Beetle?

I got that vibe from them, although of course, the JLA with BG and BB was funny, and the result of the NW fiasco wasn't...

Still, I know some grim moments came from the JLA bit, too, but I'm just thinking aloud right now.

Nothing funny about Blue Beetle getting shot in the head.


Here are some covers for speculation btw...

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/704/704473/civil-war-guide-20060502051128611.jpg

Im thinking Sue WILL be Anti.

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/704/704473/civil-war-guide-20060502050909977.jpg

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/704/704473/civil-war-guide-20060502051140127.jpg

[Red Lotus]

Well, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_(comics)) has it completely opposite (Cyclops pro-registration and Bishop anti-registration, which makes far more sense) based on the same promo art. Of course, they also have Invisible Woman as Anti-Registration, but it looks like based on Civil War #1 and promo art for August's Fantastaic Four #540, she's siding with her hubby.


Right now it doesn't.

The X-men Civil War tie ins have Bishop against them you think if he wasn't for the act that there would be more on his side. Also it was said that there were art of Cyclops and Wolverine being against Colossus who is for the act.

[Haunt]

I can sort of see it. Rich light hearted guy turned B list superhero... sort of what you get if you were to mix Spiderman and Batman in a blender.

Hopefully Blue Beatles treatment in IC won't give Millar any ideas for Nighthawk. Poor Kyle does have expendable written over him (at least outside the context of Fabian using him in TBolts).

it was the characterization in Tbolts that made me see the similarities. Blue Beetle wasn't taken seriously by the other heroes. same with Nighthawk. the Tbolts threw him away like a used condom.

[XPac]

it was the characterization in Tbolts that made me see the similarities. Blue Beetle wasn't taken seriously by the other heroes. same with Nighthawk. the Tbolts threw him away like a used condom.

Yeah... the worst part was that it was SOOO blatent it wasn't even funny. Songbird outright admitted that she only wanted him for his money. The real shame there was Kyle was one of the few heroes that gave the TBolts the benefit of the doubt, and they returned that faith by using him up and tossing him aside.

[Haunt]

Yeah... the worst part was that it was SOOO blatent it wasn't even funny. Songbird outright admitted that she only wanted him for his money. The real shame there was Kyle was one of the few heroes that gave the TBolts the benefit of the doubt, and they returned that faith by using him up and tossing him aside.


i'm certain that it will come back to bite them (or Nighthawk). :(

[Kevinroc]

it was the characterization in Tbolts that made me see the similarities. Blue Beetle wasn't taken seriously by the other heroes. same with Nighthawk. the Tbolts threw him away like a used condom.

But The Thunderbolts are also huge jerks. We're talking about The Masters of Evil here.

It's not like you could compare The Thunderbolts to The Justice League or anything.

That being said. The Thunderbolts DEFINITELY need to be taken down a notch. And with Nighthawk hooking up with Squadron Sinister or the upcoming Captain America vs. Zemo, the team could be getting the beating that they need.

[StoneGold]

And with Nighthawk hooking up with Squadron Sinister
They prefer to be called Supreme Power.

[XPac]

But The Thunderbolts are also huge jerks. We're talking about The Masters of Evil here.

It's not like you could compare The Thunderbolts to The Justice League or anything.

That being said. The Thunderbolts DEFINITELY need to be taken down a notch. And with Nighthawk hooking up with Squadron Sinister or the upcoming Captain America vs. Zemo, the team could be getting the beating that they need.

If that story is taking place in TBolts, I'm kinda skeptical the TBolts will be getting any kind of beating in it. We all saw what happened the last time Cap (and the New Avenegers) threw down with the TBolts. Wasn't pretty. It's the TBolts own book, so I suppose on some level it's a given they'd end up looking good though.

Odds are if the TBolts are taken down, it'll have to happen somewhere else. Maybe in Civil War's main story arc or something.

[Kevinroc]

If that story is taking place in TBolts, I'm kinda skeptical the TBolts will be getting any kind of beating in it. We all saw what happened the last time Cap (and the New Avenegers) threw down with the TBolts. Wasn't pretty. It's the TBolts own book, so I suppose on some level it's a given they'd end up looking good though.

Odds are if the TBolts are taken down, it'll have to happen somewhere else. Maybe in Civil War's main story arc or something.

Yes, the Cap/ Zemo fight is going to happen in TBolts. This will lead to either one of two outcomes.

1: Cap defeats Zemo.

2: Zemo defeats Cap but is unable to capture him (either he lets Cap go or some other hero arrives and saves Cap).

Why? Because Thunderbolts is a tie-in story and Captain America can't be captured in the tie-in story when Civil War proper is supposed to be stand-alone.

But The TBolts definitely deserve a beating for their horrible treatment of Nighthawk. So if Thor comes by, rescues Cap and kicks Zemo's ass, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Just read this last night. Although I feared Millar might make it too much like Ultimates, I thought it was handled pretty well (aside from the poor dialogue in some parts).

I agree with most of you that Johnny was being pretty callous about the death of his ex. Looks like I was the only one surprised about Dr. Strange. From his behavior in Illuminati, I thought he'd stay as far away from this as possible, not show up at the Baxter Building!

I usually don't mind it when Wolverine always appears with the X-Men, but I'm relieved Scott and Rachel were in this and Emma was nowhere to be seen. She's become too much of a figurehead lately.

Hill's really not helping her case by calling Captain America an idiot. Then again, she's the one who blames Spider-Man for everything the Green Goblin's done.

Cap being anti-registration makes that seem more like the "moral" side, but judging by that picture, Sentry is pro-registration. Sentry is not in his right mind, his judgment can't be trusted. That's another one for anti-registration!

[XPac]

Yes, the Cap/ Zemo fight is going to happen in TBolts. This will lead to either one of two outcomes.

1: Cap defeats Zemo.

2: Zemo defeats Cap but is unable to capture him (either he lets Cap go or some other hero arrives and saves Cap).

Why? Because Thunderbolts is a tie-in story and Captain America can't be captured in the tie-in story when Civil War proper is supposed to be stand-alone.

But The TBolts definitely deserve a beating for their horrible treatment of Nighthawk. So if Thor comes by, rescues Cap and kicks Zemo's ass, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Right now though, I don't see how Cap could beat Zemo. It would be a bit of an unfair fight, unless Zemo allows his ego to get the better of him (a classic villian mistake).

No doubt in my mind that if Zemo disregards the Moonstones and chooses to take on Cap in a fair 1 on 1 fight, Cap will beat him.

But yeah, either way Cap can't be captured or anything. Not in a mere Civil War tie in.

[Haunt]

But The Thunderbolts are also huge jerks. We're talking about The Masters of Evil here.

It's not like you could compare The Thunderbolts to The Justice League or anything.

Batman might disagree with you. magically reprogramming villains, anyone?

[bounusball75]

I like what millar does most of the time.

[RustyShackleford]

I just read CW #1. Anyone tired of people griping about the way the NW were handled? Okay, but just be glad I didn't start a new thread.:)

The story required Nitro to explode in some confrontation with some super heroes. I don't want to use the term contrived, but that's what the story called for. So competence wasn't really going to enter into the equation. And I don't think true incompetence was shown in the scene at all.

Folks have said Nita shouldn't have stopped him in front of a school, but you can't give him enough time to actually run into the school, especially on camera.

Folks have said Nita should have hit him harder. Well, Millar could use that hit to ignite Nitro as well, like Firestorm (Identity Crisis) or Captain Atom (Kingdom Come) before him.

Nita wasted time with banter? Honestly, it wouldn't be a comic without some (unless either Cassanda Cain or Snake Eyes is the hero in question), and it was the method used to reveal Nitro's upgrade (it's info no other hero would have had, apparently).

I guess the bottom line is, #1 needed a scene that showed literal incompetence if no one, not even Namorita's ex-girlfriend, give the Warriors the benefit of the doubt. The Nita/Nitro scene was not that.

[MakeshiftHero]

I just read CW #1. Anyone tired of people griping about the way the NW were handled? Okay, but just be glad I didn't start a new thread.:)

The story required Nitro to explode in some confrontation with some super heroes. I don't want to use the term contrived, but that's what the story called for. So competence wasn't really going to enter into the equation. And I don't think true incompetence was shown in the scene at all.

Folks have said Nita shouldn't have stopped him in front of a school, but you can't give him enough time to actually run into the school, especially on camera.

Folks have said Nita should have hit him harder. Well, Millar could use that hit to ignite Nitro as well, like Firestorm (Identity Crisis) or Captain Atom (Kingdom Come) before him.

Nita wasted time with banter? Honestly, it wouldn't be a comic without some (unless either Cassanda Cain or Snake Eyes is the hero in question), and it was the method used to reveal Nitro's upgrade (it's info no other hero would have had, apparently).

I guess the bottom line is, #1 needed a scene that showed literal incompetence if no one, not even Namorita's ex-girlfriend, give the Warriors the benefit of the doubt. The Nita/Nitro scene was not that.
I have nothing to say about your statements, but I would like to congradulate you on a great name, Rusty, always nice to see a fellow fan of king of the hill, the newer episodes are great, unlike the 1st couple of seasons. Anyways, continue guys.

[Kevinroc]

Batman might disagree with you. magically reprogramming villains, anyone?

Well, it's not like you SHOULD be able to compare The Justice League's tactics to those of The Masters of Evil.

[Porcelain]

Um, who's the third guy with IM and Reed at the end? Is that Black Bolt? Who/what is he? Why is he the third?

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

Hank Pym, aka Yellowjacket. He's a grow-real-big superhero from the Avengers.

[Porcelain]

See I'd never of known - well I know who he is, but never have recognised him in that costume. Thank you.

[mancalledpete]

...anyway... not only do I think Civil War is one of the best story arc's to hit comics in a long long time... BUT... yesterday I laid my greasey little hands on a Civil War #1 (first print too!) signed by the artists... one of 250 signed copies, with a certificate blah blah...

Reckon it'll be worth any money eventually?????

[algertman]

...anyway... not only do I think Civil War is one of the best story arc's to hit comics in a long long time... BUT... yesterday I laid my greasey little hands on a Civil War #1 (first print too!) signed by the artists... one of 250 signed copies, with a certificate blah blah...

Reckon it'll be worth any money eventually?????


20$ at the most

[mattspideyrocks!]

...anyway... not only do I think Civil War is one of the best story arc's to hit comics in a long long time... BUT... yesterday I laid my greasey little hands on a Civil War #1 (first print too!) signed by the artists... one of 250 signed copies, with a certificate blah blah...

Reckon it'll be worth any money eventually?????

Awesome man. Glad you are enjoying the story. :)

[mancalledpete]

20$ at the most

Philistine... I'm optimistic it's a good collectors piece!

...its gonna look just hunky sat next to my signed black-cover Spiderman#36... which... with it's Stan Lee, J. Michael Straczynski & Scott Hanna signitures on 'is' worth alot more than you 20$... :evilsmile

[agrich]

It's worth what you can one day get another fan to pay for it. That might be $20, it might be more, it might be a lot less.

I wouldn't pay a dime for a signed comic book myself, but that's just me. The comics I have with signatures, I got them in person, and they're valuable to me alone as a memory of meeting the creator. I'd never try to sell them, I couldn't prove the signatures are legit anyway, and I don't think it's that big a deal to own. Just a nice reminder of meeting the creator, really.

[CaptainAwesome]

I read somewhere that if the issue is really hard to find and it is signed by the creators then it is actually worth less than one that isnt. I think because if someone wrote on it then its not in mint condition and people dont want to pay for something not in mint condition. But CW is not hard to find at all, since pretty much everyone in america has a copy, so I'd say about $20, too.

[Bobster777]

The big money makers will be the 1 in 75 sketch variants by Michael Turner. Those are the ones the collectors will be looking for in the future.

[streator]

i read this issue the other night and loved it. definitely a good start.

[Bobster777]

i read this issue the other night and loved it. definitely a good start.
Yes, definately a great issue. The Cap scene was worth the price of admission alone.

[CMBMOOL]

IN the upcoming video game Marvel Ultimate Alliance guess who back as a NPC......




Namorita

[Nomad]

yeah, as a blondie, too. This will have no impact on the marvel universe, though. I'm glad for every lesser known character they tag on that game.

[Sijo]

Namorita is easy to bring back. She was a clone to begin with. There could be others.

[protege]

You know- that could be an interesting story for the new Warriors- exactly what was namorita cloned for?

[Mjolnir]

You know- that could be an interesting story for the new Warriors- exactly what was namorita cloned for?

for quesada to blow up

[Mjolnir]

meanwhile, i think a Civil War game like Ultimate Alliance could be worth a thought...
really put a good spin on the 'Alliance' part

[Jeff-E]

meanwhile, i think a Civil War game like Ultimate Alliance could be worth a thought...
really put a good spin on the 'Alliance' part

You know what? This would be an awesome game something expansive, but deffinetly finite maybe 50 hours worth as opposed to some games 100+ hours, but two stories that long where you could choose to fight on the Anti side as Cap, Falcon, Herc, or DD/Ironfist, or have 4 different people to select per level, until the point where they either get killed or captured. Then you could play the Pro heros as Tony, Ms.Marvel, Wonderman, or Spiderman. This could be a really groovy concept for a new game.

[Mjolnir]

You know what? This would be an awesome game something expansive, but deffinetly finite maybe 50 hours worth as opposed to some games 100+ hours, but two stories that long where you could choose to fight on the Anti side as Cap, Falcon, Herc, or DD/Ironfist, or have 4 different people to select per level, until the point where they either get killed or captured. Then you could play the Pro heros as Tony, Ms.Marvel, Wonderman, or Spiderman. This could be a really groovy concept for a new game.

It'd be even cooler if you could assume control of any character and at any stage decide to swap sides...and if you dont do your mission properly, your teammates begin to suspect your dissent...etc.

hell i'd buy it

[hitokiri_]

just reread civil war 1. it is shown that he's holding one. weird huh?

[Karl O'Neill]

just reread civil war 1. it is shown that he's holding one. weird huh?

hmmm, i'll check this out when i go home.
good spot.

look out for a picture of mark milllar in captain america hq's, the picture is on the screen

[RonnieThunderbolts]

just reread civil war 1. it is shown that he's holding one. weird huh?


This is true, but if you reread the whole mini, he has a coin in issue 5 as well. Throughout the mini the guy in the Daredevil suit is messing with a coin.

[DoctorDoom]

Bah. It means nothing (much like Zemo giving Cao that 'key" meant nothing).

[tedward1984]

The coin has minor signifigance in isse 5.

[Titanium]

It seems like a piece of silver reference. Considering it's given to Iron Man when DD is captured.

[hitokiri_]

but why is he holding the coin at issue 1?

[sugarmanandrobin]

It's called foreshadowing.

[agrich]

Plus not knowing when exactly he'd have the opportunity to give it to Iron Man and deliver his cool line. Had to keep it handy until then, y'know.

[Niro]

someone explained in great detail the meaning of that silver coin, i cant believe i forgot what that meaning was and who explained it :(

[RonnieThunderbolts]

someone explained in great detail the meaning of that silver coin, i cant believe i forgot what that meaning was and who explained it :(

Well, when he gives it Tony it he is comparing Tony to Judas, who betrayed Jesus Christ for pieces of silver in the most commonly held Christian beliefs. Why Danny Rand loves to roll a coin across his hand to begin with... well, maybe it WAS to have on hand so he could give Tony a hard time.

[Will.S]

Why Danny Rand loves to roll a coin across his hand to begin with... well, maybe it WAS to have on hand so he could give Tony a hard time.
That was my only problem with that scene, it was one of those character moments that didn't ring true to Iron Fist (and yes I know people thought this to be the case with alot of characters).

Danny's personality as far as I've known him isn't the cocky/smug character we saw there plus he's usually not known for coin tricks so it seemed like Millar just put any character to fill that need and say that particular line which was said by Bill Foster earlier too.

[MAK15]

That was my only problem with that scene, it was one of those character moments that didn't ring true to Iron Fist (and yes I know people thought this to be the case with alot of characters).

Danny's personality as far as I've known him isn't the cocky/smug character we saw there plus he's usually not known for coin tricks so it seemed like Millar just put any character to fill that need and say that particular line which was said by Bill Foster earlier too.

he might've just done that to throw people off that he wasn't Iron Fist in disguise

[Berkey]

Bah. It means nothing (much like Zemo giving Cao that 'key" meant nothing).

I think the key was part of the original plan, but with delays and new tie-ins I think it might have faded away. Or he might still use it if hes arrested after the war.

[Ungoliantschilde]

You're absolutely correct on the "above the law" thing. That yawning chasm has always been there. The problem is that sometimes, normal people trip and fall into that chasm, and things like 9-11/Stamford happen. The law isn't there to protect the people from guys like Iron Man or Thor... it's there to hold morons like the New Warriors in check. You want proof that the New Warriors are morons? Night-Thrasher dresses in a skintight black leather outfit, and he goes around sneaking up on people... and yet has no idea why people think he's a homosexual. (By the way, MidNighter is like Night-Thrasher, but much cooler and more badass). Namorita shoved a guy who can blow himself up at will. She shoved him. They're hearts are in the right place, and that's fine, but Stamford is still a smoking hole. The problem is, you can't regulate some of them, and leave other ones alone because they have tenure. The only guys that can work with are people like Dr. Strange, the Eternals, or the Inhumans. They're not involved in Human affairs, they're battles don't take place around humans, and they are too powerful to tell them what to do. Getting Thor to register is going to be an interesting story. Especially after they cloned him. And, his clone killed a friend. (That's gonna be a tough sell.) Either way, I don't want anyone to think I like the Registration Act, or that I agree with it all the way. The end result is that it's the best option out of all the horrible options they were left with. That's what politics and governing is: you have to choose the devil you know.

[Alan2099]

The law isn't there to protect the people from guys like Iron Man or Thor... it's there to hold morons like the New Warriors in check. You want proof that the New Warriors are morons? Night-Thrasher dresses in a skintight black leather outfit, and he goes around sneaking up on people... and yet has no idea why people think he's a homosexual. (By the way, MidNighter is like Night-Thrasher, but much cooler and more badass). Namorita shoved a guy who can blow himself up at will. She shoved him.

The gay arguement thing was just stupid. I'mm not even going to dignify that with a response. Anyway, until now the New Warriors have always been shown to be competent (if a bit over enthisiastic) superheroes. As for shoving him, take a look at the issue again.

http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0003qyq7qp4.jpg
(excuse the parody dialog here. My scanner no longer works and this was the only one avaible to me.)

First, Nitro was running towards the school. She stopped him by shoving him into a bus. Now take a look at the dent on that thing. Nitro, until his power upgrade, has never shown anykind of suprhuman durability. The guy should be out cold, at least. I've seen a pickup hit a schoolbus without leaving a dent that big.

There's no amount of training or registration that would have told the New Warriors that Nitro was going to be able to remain consious after that kind of impact.

[heretic]

You're absolutely correct on the "above the law" thing. That yawning chasm has always been there. The problem is that sometimes, normal people trip and fall into that chasm, and things like 9-11/Stamford happen. The law isn't there to protect the people from guys like Iron Man or Thor... it's there to hold morons like the New Warriors in check. You want proof that the New Warriors are morons? Night-Thrasher dresses in a skintight black leather outfit, and he goes around sneaking up on people... and yet has no idea why people think he's a homosexual. (By the way, MidNighter is like Night-Thrasher, but much cooler and more badass). Namorita shoved a guy who can blow himself up at will. She shoved him. They're hearts are in the right place, and that's fine, but Stamford is still a smoking hole.
Time. Out.

The New Warriors were operating reasonably well, and given Nitro's known Blast Radius they were well away from bystanders.

All the training and licenses in the world would not have anticipated or stopped Stamford. Period. Deal with it, and find better arguments.

HTG

[Conn Seanery]

First, Nitro was running towards the school. She stopped him by shoving him into a bus. Now take a look at the dent on that thing. Nitro, until his power upgrade, has never shown anykind of suprhuman durability. The guy should be out cold, at least. I've seen a pickup hit a schoolbus without leaving a dent that big.

There's no amount of training or registration that would have told the New Warriors that Nitro was going to be able to remain consious after that kind of impact.
Did you happen to read the dialogue of the issue, or were the pictures enough to get you into a snit? Do you have any recollection of Namorita ever talking to people she purposefully knocked unconscious? It's not even trash talk (which you could arguably write off as "I just kicked your ass, here's a cool witty one-liner" action dialogue), she's more or less talking to him like she meant to subdue or restrain him, not knock him unconscious. Policemen don't knock criminals unconscious and then go "Okay, hands behind your back. Nice and easy, now." If the New Warriors are as competent as you're arguing they are, there's no reason to believe that she meant to do anything more than that.

If you're still pissed off about the sequence, go hunt down McNiven and give him a piece of your mind for drawing too many dents in the bus. Yeesh.

[Alan2099]

Or you could argue that's she meant tyo knock him unconsious and when she saw that he wasn't, that's when she started talking to him.

Even if you don't want to see things that way, even adding in the gas from the bus, Nitro's still wouldn't have had enough power to cause even a fraction as much damage as he did.

[Vaal]

Regardless of what she intended to do, Nitro as anyone knew him wasn't capable of doing any real damage to anyone in that situation. No amount of training could have made them magically aware that he was enhanced to the point of being a nulcear weapon.

The next time we see Nitro, he's blasting trained SHIELD agents into ash. And these guys knew that he (NOT the New Warriors) was responsible for the big boom. So I'm wondering what the special 'magical clairvoyance' training would have done either.

[Ungoliantschilde]

Heretic - the NightThrasher comment wasn't an anti-homosexual crack. It was about self-awareness. If you dress like that, and call yourself NightThrasher, people will make assumptions. Getting touchy about people calling him a Homosexual is just naive.

Granted, training couldn't prepare them for Nitro, and Namorita gave him one hell of a shove. It was a power-slam from waaay above the top rope, but it was still a shove. Either way, the New Warriors were and always have been C-List. At best.

As far as the pro-registration argument goes:

Hypothetically speaking, if you were in the bank one day with your spouse, and then... all of a sudden, a bunch of guys in ski masks came in and told you it was a robbery, you'd be terrified. You'd be in a hostage situation, and maybe the SWAT team would come in. Let's say the SWAT guys DO come in. You don't see much of it, because you're hiding under a desk or something, but when the smoke clears, all of the bank robbers are dead... and so is your spouse. You learn later that the SWAT team accidentally shot her because she was near a Bank Robber. Here's the kicker:

Would you give a rat's ass that they got all the bank robbers? Would you care that they shot a bunch of criminals into swiss cheese? No, you probably wouldn't You would probably be mostly distraught over the fact that your spouse has a severe case of "Dead".

Collateral damage is the point of the pro-reg argument. Ideals are one of the most important aspects of being a superhero, or a police officer, or any other kind of public safety worker. However, mistakes happen, and that's what people will care about. People will care that their house is gone, or their kids are dead, or the school they sent their children to is now a smoking hole. Normal people don't care about ideals when the shit hits the fan. They just don't.

Case in point: Do you care that Saddam Hussein is dead? Or do you care that our soldiers are fighting a war they shouldn't be involved in? That's the measure of accountability.

[Exo]

So I'm wondering what the special 'magical clairvoyance' training would have done either.

1. They went in gung-ho without a battleplan.

2. They didn't take the time to evacuate the premises before.

3. Had they done their homework and handled Nitro the way Ironman handled Electro in New Avengers #4, there wouldn't be a Civil War.

The training they'd get doesn't solely serve to hone ones superhuman abilities to near perfection.

[Pro]

Policemen don't knock criminals unconscious and then go "Okay, hands behind your back. Nice and easy, now."

Nor can policemen fly after a criminal. Silly argument.

It's more akin to a cop telling someone to freeze while he's flying after him to ensure that if he doesn't comply immediately he at least makes sure said criminal doesn't run into a schoolyard of kids he can hold hostage.
Obviously Nitro wasn't complying so the next second Slam.
That's how i read it.

And as stated by other no matter what namorita intended to do no amount of training would have revealed Nitro's enhanced powers.

[Conn Seanery]

It's more akin to a cop telling someone to freeze while he's flying after him to ensure that if he doesn't comply immediately he at least makes sure said criminal doesn't run into a schoolyard of kids he can hold hostage.
Obviously Nitro wasn't complying so the next second Slam.
That's how i read it.
Either way, it's a superhero comic. John Q. MetahumanBadguy not getting knocked out by being slammed into bus is nothing to stress over, especially when the intended method of the superhero's capture tactics can be interpreted in various ways. Myself, I have no reason to doubt what was shown in the comic.


And as stated by other no matter what namorita intended to do no amount of training would have revealed Nitro's enhanced powers.
Agreed.

[jackolover]

Would you give a rat's ass that they got all the bank robbers? Would you care that they shot a bunch of criminals into swiss cheese? No, you probably wouldn't You would probably be mostly distraught over the fact that your spouse has a severe case of "Dead".

That's a very selfish attitude. Of cause it's selfish, in that example, because you've lost someone you love.

But does that mean the swat team is going to be hamstrung from doing what they do - take out bank robbers. The whole premise of a society is that you have law enforcement. And in some cases there is collateral damage, eg the dead girlfriend. But if you took away the ability to use force, that combats the bank robbers, from the law enforcement armory, you forgo the flexability and freedom to engage and take out the bank robber.

So I suppose what I'm saying, do our emotional responses overide the law enforcements procedures, against perps? Or do we accept that in some cases shit happens, but allow the enforcers their freedom? And to extrapolate to the New Warriors, why lumber these guys with the fallout of engaging criminals on the loose, when not engageing them, means the criminals are back out in the community. I know in hindsight, the New Warriors should have done this and should have done that. But all violent engagements have a risk.

[oldscool]

how mant times must this be said

NITRO WAS USEING MGH AND THERE WAS NO F##KING WAY THE NW COULD HAVE KNOWN THAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jackolover]

The bad:

Is it just me, or do things just seem -way- too one-sided in terms of public perception? I like that they referenced other "recent events" as building up to it, but it really seems like suddenly the entire US population is anti-superhero. Surely there's at least a -few- "moderate" voices out there?



Sorry to reignite such an old thread. It just took my interest, because of something that was said here. I would be interested in what "recent events" from the the highlighted statement? Was there something that the referenced recent events was supposed to refer to?

Edit : I see it was Goliath that mentioned the "Recent Events", which were - "After Philly getting bombed (Captain America?), the Hulk trashing Vegas, (FF),... Wolverine saying he was gonna kill the President? (EOTS)".

So the Red Skull had a direct effect on the SHRA, (as well as Planet Hulk, and Wolverine taken over by Hydra). This is something I overlooked at the start of Civil War, as one of the significant disasters that alienanted the heroes from the public. What was the heroes fault about Philly being bombed, though? Unless it was the whole thread of the Red Skulls setting Steve Rogers up for the kill in Cap #25, to round off Civil War. I mean, nobody even mentioned the Red Skulls effects during Civil War, except in the 3 Cap issues. But when you think about it, Captain America was the prime mover for the anti-regs the whole time of the CW, as well as the focal point of the Red Skulls plan to take over America. You would think, with the SHRA totally distorting the landscape between the heroes and the bad guys, that the Red Skull might have taken advantage of that. Did the agitation of the dupe Senator on Red Skulls payrole, have any influence on the SHRA? I know the Red Skull consulted Dr Doom during that arc of Cap, and the Red Skull was a Hydra operative. And Dr. Doom and the Black Panther met during the Civil War, and now in the DArk Reign, Doom has attacked Panther. Maybe the public saw Philly as being something Cap was involved with and blamed him for that?

Was the SHRA a tool by the cabal to get to the FSI, and thus, to the Dark Reign? A lot of people have hung the FSI on the Skrull Pym, but even Reed and Tony discussed the placement of other teams in other states at an Illuminati meeting in NA before the CW, so Pyms involvement was more a logical progression from the multiple teams.

[Sandy Hausler]

Sorry to reignite such an old thread. It just took my interest, because of something that was said here. I would be interested in what "recent events" from the the highlighted statement? Was there something that the referenced recent events was supposed to refer to?

Edit : I see it was Goliath that mentioned the "Recent Events", which were - "After Philly getting bombed (Captain America?), the Hulk trashing Vegas, (FF),... Wolverine saying he was gonna kill the President? (EOTS)".

So the Red Skull had a direct effect on the SHRA, (as well as Planet Hulk, and Wolverine taken over by Hydra). This is something I overlooked at the start of Civil War, as one of the significant disasters that alienanted the heroes from the public. What was the heroes fault about Philly being bombed, though? Unless it was the whole thread of the Red Skulls setting Steve Rogers up for the kill in Cap #25, to round off Civil War. I mean, nobody even mentioned the Red Skulls effects during Civil War, except in the 3 Cap issues. But when you think about it, Captain America was the prime mover for the anti-regs the whole time of the CW, as well as the focal point of the Red Skulls plan to take over America. You would think, with the SHRA totally distorting the landscape between the heroes and the bad guys, that the Red Skull might have taken advantage of that. Did the agitation of the dupe Senator on Red Skulls payrole, have any influence on the SHRA? I know the Red Skull consulted Dr Doom during that arc of Cap, and the Red Skull was a Hydra operative. And Dr. Doom and the Black Panther met during the Civil War, and now in the DArk Reign, Doom has attacked Panther. Maybe the public saw Philly as being something Cap was involved with and blamed him for that?

Was the SHRA a tool by the cabal to get to the FSI, and thus, to the Dark Reign? A lot of people have hung the FSI on the Skrull Pym, but even Reed and Tony discussed the placement of other teams in other states at an Illuminati meeting in NA before the CW, so Pyms involvement was more a logical progression from the multiple teams.

It was probably Hydra pulling the strings. And Tony Stark played into their hands. :biggrin:

Sandy Hausler

[jackolover]

It was probably Hydra pulling the strings. And Tony Stark played into their hands. :biggrin:

Sandy Hausler

I'm beginning to get that vibe as well. Hydra may appear be a dysfunctional uncoordinated mess, but they seem to be into everything. Even Ms Marvel found a Super Skrull that had a Hydra label on it, and that isn't even being addressed in her book. Carols book just seems to be a mess right now.

Edit : Also, I just realised, all of those examples by Goliath were created by Hydra:

Philly was by the Red Skull, a Hydra affiliate
Vegus was the Hulk defusing a Hydra Gamma bomb
EOTS was Hydra sending Wolvy after POTUS.

So maybe Mark Millar was giving us a hint of what was to come, by pointing us to the villain in all this. Maybe Hydra didn't cause Civil War per se, but they sure as hell created the climate that made the SHRA possible.

[Berkey]

I can't believe this subject is back. I always wondered what would have happened if the Fantastic Four were responsible for this. even thought they would have had a better game plan, no one could have expected what did. Just ask yourself what if they did cause it, that is you have to allow yourself to think that they could (unlike some of the old posts where people would swear on their lives that nothing like this could happen to the fantasitc four, yet somehow the skrulls took down the baxter building right under their noses). Anyway picture what the civil War would of been like if they FF caused that explosion.

[jackolover]

I can't believe this subject is back. I always wondered what would have happened if the Fantastic Four were responsible for this. even thought they would have had a better game plan, no one could have expected what did. Just ask yourself what if they did cause it, that is you have to allow yourself to think that they could (unlike some of the old posts where people would swear on their lives that nothing like this could happen to the fantasitc four, yet somehow the skrulls took down the baxter building right under their noses). Anyway picture what the civil War would of been like if they FF caused that explosion.

FF fights the 4 escapees, because they attack the Baxter Building. Pretty much, the FF would be dead? No. We have had a nuclear explosion happen in the Pacific and the FF survive because Sue instinctively lays down a force field protecting the family. NY would have been devastated, and something like 5000 people would have been killed, not 900. But I don't think you could fit the FF into a storyline about hunting down criminals, which is what you'd have to imagine.

But lets say Walter Declun payed Nitro to go to the Baxter Building in NY, stand outside, and just blow up. Would that be blamed on the FF? I don't think so, and I don't think the SHRA would have been invoked as a result. The SHRA wasn't invoked when Philly was blown up, and that was caused by a villain too.