So. Civil War...

[Sam]

I know there's a Civil War board, but CBRers tend to stick to themselves. So I'm curious -- which side do you guys think is in the right here?

Keep in mind that, going by what we've seen so far, this is not just the Mutant Registration Act. They're not drafting everyone with superpowers, or building a big database of every civilian who can shoot lightning bolts. It's very specifically applied to active superheroes. Basically, they can't just be anonymous vigilantes anymore. They have to operate within the bounds of the law. Like cops, or doctors. (That's the analogy that Spider-Man used, and he's against it, so it's not like he was trying to sugarcoat it.)

I'll admit, the idea that maybe people with superpowers should be held to the same legal standard as, well, everyone else is one that doesn't sound entirely unreasonable to me. I can certainly see how someone like Reed Richards would think it was quite reasonable.

To be honest, I'm actually having some amount of difficulty trying to work out a rational argument for, "No, we should be allowed to act as anonymous vigilantes outside the scope of law."

But I'm curious as to what folks around here think.

[Pendaran]

To paraphrase Superman as a response to Millar, you, and Marvel Comics alike, your real world political analogies just don't hold any meaning in a complex world of time travel and flying superintelligent gorillas.

Note, this is not a response of taking a side in the issue, this is a notation of finding this a valid and interesting concept to explore in the MU, especially in the manner it's being handled, to be several shades of stupid.

Ah well, Annihilation is a fantastic read. If anyone hasn't been picking up the minis yet, you are doing yourselves a terrible disservice. I find myself actually excited and eager for the next installment in a big crossover event. Haven't felt that way since.. like.. Infinity Gauntlet. Good, fun comics without some faux moralistic/philosophical soapbox.

[Ant Crown]

I know there's a Civil War board, but CBRers tend to stick to themselves. So I'm curious -- which side do you guys think is in the right here?

Keep in mind that, going by what we've seen so far, this is not just the Mutant Registration Act. They're not drafting everyone with superpowers, or building a big database of every civilian who can shoot lightning bolts. It's very specifically applied to active superheroes. Basically, they can't just be anonymous vigilantes anymore. They have to operate within the bounds of the law. Like cops, or doctors. (That's the analogy that Spider-Man used, and he's against it, so it's not like he was trying to sugarcoat it.)

I'll admit, the idea that maybe people with superpowers should be held to the same legal standard as, well, everyone else is one that doesn't sound entirely unreasonable to me. I can certainly see how someone like Reed Richards would think it was quite reasonable.

To be honest, I'm actually having some amount of difficulty trying to work out a rational argument for, "No, we should be allowed to act as anonymous vigilantes outside the scope of law."

But I'm curious as to what folks around here think.
Traditionaly Superheros tend to work outside of the law...Although some like Cap work within it's boundries but still get caught in the red tape...

I'm siding with Spidey...he's good people and there's not a thing that can disuade me to say otherwise.

[Pendaran]

edit- meh.

[Infinity Chameleon]

..........

[Ant Crown]

..........
CYA Chameleon.

[Beast]

Keep in mind that, going by what we've seen so far, this is not just the Mutant Registration Act. They're not drafting everyone with superpowers, or building a big database of every civilian who can shoot lightning bolts. It's very specifically applied to active superheroes.
Actually, re-read the dialogue by Iron Man in Illuminati. It relates to everyone, and incorporates all those things and more. It is a Mutant Registeration Act. And they are building a big database of every civilian with powers. And what happens when the country needs heroes to fight for some cause, there's always the chance for a draft. Not to mention if those employed heroes don't believe in the cause, they don't have a choice if they want to continue bing heroes. It's not just aimed at active superheroes, but anyone with powers, regardless if they are active heroes or not. And that's why some have major issues with it.
IRON MAN: This is an early draft of a bill that will hit the floor of the United States Congress in month or two. It was slipped to me under the table. It's the super hero registration act.

Anyone with powers, anyone in costume, any mutant, any of our kind is going to be required by law to reveal themselves to the United States government.

In return, the registered hero will be given a job as a guard in the new SHIELD world security force. You'll still get to be a superhero, but you'll have to answer to someone.

Refusing to register will be a federal crime.

[Sam]

Ah, the subtle hand of board moderators who don't read the actual thread.

[Sam]

To paraphrase Superman as a response to Millar, you, and Marvel Comics alike, your real world political analogies just don't hold any meaning in a complex world of time travel and flying superintelligent gorillas.

Note, this is not a response of taking a side in the issue, this is a notation of finding this a valid and interesting concept to explore in the MU, especially in the manner it's being handled, to be several shades of stupid.

I think what works in the DCU may be different from what works in the MU, though. Marvel Comics have always been deeply political. The Fantastic Four were inspired by the Space Race and deeply influenced by Cold War politics. The Hulk is nuclear paranoia personified. And then, of course, there's the X-Men, the entire premise of which was the civil rights movement played as superhero drama.

If it's written intelligently, I see no problem with doing political stories. Marvel have done political stories all the way back to Stan and Jack.

[Beast]

Ah, the subtle hand of board moderators who don't read the actual thread.
Oh they read it, it's just that there's a Civil War board for a reason.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

I don't like this Civil War nonsense, the government is being stupid here, divided and trying to restrain the super hero community, only presents a chance for the super villain community to take advantage and try and take over the world or something. Does the government dislike super heroes so much, that they were willing to risk super villains suceeding in their goals?

[Expletive Deleted]

Ah, the subtle hand of board moderators who don't read the actual thread.Considering how, oh . . . every single previous thread that was even tangentially related to superhero registration went, can you blame them?

[Sam]

Actually, re-read the dialogue by Iron Man in Illuminati. It relates to everyone, and incorporates all those things and more. It is a Mutant Registeration Act. And they are building a big database of every civilian with powers. And what happens when the country needs heroes to fight for some cause, there's always the chance for a draft. Not to mention if those employed heroes don't believe in the cause, they don't have a choice if they want to continue bing heroes. It's not just aimed at active superheroes, but anyone with powers, regardless if they are active heroes or not. And that's why some have major issues with it.

Ah. That makes things somewhat thornier. It'll be interesting to see how it's played in the main series; that's certainly now how the bill sounded in the Spider-Man story they just did, where it was described much more in terms of forcing active superheroes to register and become law enforcement officials rather than vigilantes. (Which is how Millar has described it in interviews, too.)

[Sam]

Oh they read it, it's just that there's a Civil War board for a reason.

Yes. And as we all know, if anyone were to talk about the subject on any other board -- say, if I was interested in the thoughts of a group of people who don't tend to *go* to the Civil War board -- calamity would ensue.

[Sam]

I don't like this Civil War nonsense, the government is being stupid here, divided and trying to restrain the super hero community, only presents a chance for the super villain community to take advantage and try and take over the world or something. Does the government dislike super heroes so much, that they were willing to risk super villains suceeding in their goals?

In the government's defense, it's not like they're sitting around going, "Sweet! Let's cause a superhero civil war!" From their POV, they're just trying to hold superheroes to the same standard they hold every other position of great responsibility and power to.

[dingo]

I don't like this Civil War nonsense, the government is being stupid here, divided and trying to restrain the super hero community, only presents a chance for the super villain community to take advantage and try and take over the world or something. Does the government dislike super heroes so much, that they were willing to risk super villains suceeding in their goals?

On the flip side, once the dust settles, they will be able to effectively co-ordinate offensives against the villains.

"Righto, this week everyone is after the Wizard, and when you catch him we will be incarcerating him thank-you very much. None of this rendering him unconcious then leaving him business."

[Beast]

A place for everything, and everything in it's place. ;)

If people care about the topic at all, they will search a thread out to discuss it in. :)

[dingo]

Yes. And as we all know, if anyone were to talk about the subject on any other board -- say, if I was interested in the thoughts of a group of people who don't tend to *go* to the Civil War board -- calamity would ensue.
If they want to talk about it they should come here. That's why its here

[Harlock]

I don't like this Civil War nonsense, the government is being stupid here, divided and trying to restrain the super hero community, only presents a chance for the super villain community to take advantage and try and take over the world or something. Does the government dislike super heroes so much, that they were willing to risk super villains suceeding in their goals?
Well, think of this form the governments perspective. You have (finally) an army of superheroes that are forced to work for your government agency (S.H.I.E.L.D.) so think of the power they would wield!

Just as a fictional example:

"Iran is part of an axis of wickedness! They are developing nuclear technology. Therefore we have initiated a series of surgical strikes using our new Super Force wing of S.H.I.E.L.D.! Our top psychics have definitive evidence of Iran not just developing an energy program. Our Super Force agents have started there strikes as of 1 hour ago. God Bless America"

Also, if you thought government wiretapping was bad, how about brain tapping? How about political espionage using Psychics? How about a new style of warfare where someone like Professor X could pinpoint every insurgent leader in Iraq, the Hulk could dig them out, and then Wolverine could apprehend or terminate them?

As for supervillains, surely you can see that the government would rather control the superheroes against the supervillains rather than have autonomous heroes who answer to no one, right?

[Sam]

A place for everything, and everything in it's place. ;)

If people care about the topic at all, they will search a thread out to discuss it in. :)

Right, but let's say, hypothetically speaking, I wanted to ask a specific group of people on CBR a question, rather than having them seek it out--

Ah, never mind. I'll just roll my eyes, have a bit of nostalgia over the charming moderation that made me quit posting on the board in the first place, and move on.

[Harlock]

Right, but let's say, hypothetically speaking, I wanted to ask a specific group of people on CBR a question, rather than having them seek it out--
two letters: PM

[Pendaran]

I think what works in the DCU may be different from what works in the MU, though. Marvel Comics have always been deeply political. The Fantastic Four were inspired by the Space Race and deeply influenced by Cold War politics. The Hulk is nuclear paranoia personified. And then, of course, there's the X-Men, the entire premise of which was the civil rights movement played as superhero drama.

If it's written intelligently, I see no problem with doing political stories. Marvel have done political stories all the way back to Stan and Jack.

And now: Why the Silver Surfer is going to Firelord for help with the Anihilation Wave, instead of Reed Richards, the man with the most experience with dealing with Annihilus. A play in one act.

Surfer: "OMFGWTFBBQ Reed! The entire universe is in grave peril! Earth itself may be destroyed, the power of Naked Silver Space Christ compels you to help me! The power of Naked Silver Space Christ compels you!"

Reed: "Can't you see I'm busy being one of the avatars for a particular political viewpoint as part of a brutal conflict sparked by an utterly contrived situation involving sweeping competence lobotomies of the people therein!"

Surfer: "Uh.. didn't you people already do something like this with the mutant registration act and would have technically learned from the big stupid mess that was? I totally remember it with my cosmic awareness. Does your species have the learning and memory capacity of lichen if this is considered a weighty enough event to draw the attention of your entire globe?"

Reed: "Clearly yes!"

Surfer: "Well Mary Mother of Me. I'll.. see if Sir Jobs a Lot the Firehead is doing anything."

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Well, think of this form the governments perspective. You have (finally) an army of superheroes that are forced to work for your government agency (S.H.I.E.L.D.) so think of the power they would wield!

Just as a fictional example:

"Iran is part of an axis of wickedness! They are developing nuclear technology. Therefore we have initiated a series of surgical strikes using our new Super Force wing of S.H.I.E.L.D.! Our top psychics have definitive evidence of Iran not just developing an energy program. Our Super Force agents have started there strikes as of 1 hour ago. God Bless America"

Also, if you thought government wiretapping was bad, how about brain tapping? How about political espionage using Psychics? How about a new style of warfare where someone like Professor X could pinpoint every insurgent leader in Iraq, the Hulk could dig them out, and then Wolverine could apprehend or terminate them?

As for supervillains, surely you can see that the government would rather control the superheroes against the supervillains rather than have autonomous heroes who answer to no one, right?

But that would only have worked if all the super heroes went along with it, because now that some didn't go along you have the super hero community fighting with itself and super villains have a free hand to act. Hell the US governemnt will cease to exist if one of the super villains manages to take over the world while this Civil War stuff is going on.

[Harlock]

But that would only have worked if all the super heroes went along with it, because now that some didn't go along you have the super hero community fighting with itself and super villains have a free hand to act. Hell the US governemnt will cease to exist if one of the super villains manages to take over the world while this Civil War stuff is going on.
Pretty far fetched scenario. I think a villain making a serious play for worldwide domination would be ganged up on before you could say greater good.

Also, since when has the government actually ever seen the big picture when ultimate power was in their reach?

[The Master Meglomaniac]

In the government's defense, it's not like they're sitting around going, "Sweet! Let's cause a superhero civil war!" From their POV, they're just trying to hold superheroes to the same standard they hold every other position of great responsibility and power to.

Super heroes are the only counter balance to super villains, by trying to restrain the super hero community they are upsetting the balance of power and giving super villains a free hand to act. That is stupid.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Pretty far fetched scenario. I think a villain making a serious play for worldwide domination would be ganged up on before you could say greater good.

Also, since when has the government actually ever seen the big picture when ultimate power was in their reach?

Not if the villain is being sneaky and subtle, perhaps even organizing several super villains into one group, organzing the villains while the heroes are disorganized. I do you really think the super villains would just sit on the sidelines and allow thiis chance to cause havok slip away? Besides the hero community will be weak from fighting eachother, that some super villains could just go and easily defeat the "winning" side.

Also you think after the mess the mutant registration act caused, you would think they wouldn't want to repeat that mess again.

[StoneGold]

To paraphrase Superman as a response to Millar, you, and Marvel Comics alike, your real world political analogies just don't hold any meaning in a complex world of time travel and flying superintelligent gorillas.
.
Yeah, you're right. Lee, Kirby, Ditko, what the hell were they thinking writing analogies to real world issues in their comics? I sure am glad you set them straight!

[Pendaran]

Yeah, you're right. Lee, Kirby, Ditko, what the hell were they thinking writing analogies to real world issues in their comics? I sure am glad you set them straight!


I missed the part where they badly rehashed issues they'd already gone into and used them to define some company wide crossover, using the impetus thereof a particularly poor bit of contrivance, in order to turn characters into basically mouthpieces.

Or: even the most heavy handed Spider Man drug issue reads as fine subtlety compared to some of the interviews and previews to date. The analogies they used were worked into the characters, the characters weren't shoehorned into them to be ciphers for pseudo political debate.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

On the flip side, once the dust settles, they will be able to effectively co-ordinate offensives against the villains.

"Righto, this week everyone is after the Wizard, and when you catch him we will be incarcerating him thank-you very much. None of this rendering him unconcious then leaving him business."

If the dust settles, super villains could try and take over the world while the heroes are fighting. Also after the dust settles, half the super heroes would be in prison or retired, so if a New Masters of Evil group comes along, they would be in trouble.

[dingo]

I missed the part where they rehashed issues they'd already gone into and used them to define some company wide crossover, using the impetus thereof a particularly poor bit of contrivance, in order to turn characters into basically mouthpieces.

Or: even the most heavy handed Spider Man drug issue reads as fine subtlety compared to some of the interviews and previews to date. The analogies they used were worked into the characters, the characters weren't shoehorned into them to be ciphers for pseudo political debate.

So you feel that an issue that has been dealt with once before must be put in a plastic bag, boarded and never see the light of day again.

Please.

It's like saying, oh, we can't have Daredevil trying to takedown the Kingpin, we have already done that before.

Th very obvious point is that the political climate of today is so different as to colour everones opinion on any registration issue differently than whenever it was dealt with before, there are also a few dozen other
differences in the whole setup.
Not least of which is that they wish to control and direct the heroes as well as register them.

It is like the difference between a draft and a national identity card.

[Sam]

two letters: PM

You're right. My desire to have a conversation with an entire group of posters who tend to cluster around a particular board, on a subject which (gasp!) might indeed already be in discussion elsewhere on CBR, is clearly outside the bounds of social conduct -- nay, sanity itself.

[dingo]

If the dust settles, super villains could try and take over the world while the heroes are fighting. Also after the dust settles, half the super heroes would be in prison or retired, so if a New Masters of Evil group comes along, they would be in trouble.

Firstly I would say that if during a fight between heroes a supervillain attacked, they would at least put aside their differences for long enough to deal with it.

Secondly, if a Masters of Evil group attacked, they would not be in trouble, they would be better equipped to deal with them. Sheild would presumably dispatch a large team of meta's specifically chosen to deal with the specific threat rather than the current system of whoever finds them first has to deal with them. Hell, even if it was Daredevil who found them first he would at least have a system in place where he could call in backup like any normal law enforcement officer.

[Pendaran]

So you feel that an issue that has been dealt with once before must be put in a plastic bag, boarded and never see the light of day again.


When it involves the Government of Marvel US having to proclaim Bullwinkle style "this time for sure"? When they have to come off as having thus a basic inability to learn from really, really bad mistakes?

there are also a few dozen other
differences in the whole setup.

Among them characters being written out of such to ensure it happens, sure. *shrug*

It's like saying, oh, we can't have Daredevil trying to takedown the Kingpin, we have already done that before.


It's more like saying the Kingpin should likely know better than to re-enact Born Again on Daredevil, even if the writer thinks he can score a really pithy or topical point by doing so that Born Again likely already scored, considering that the Kingpin might, say, know how things turned out last time.

[Harlock]

Not if the villain is being sneaky and subtle, perhaps even organizing several super villains into one group, organzing the villains while the heroes are disorganized. I do you really think the super villains would just sit on the sidelines and allow thiis chance to cause havok slip away? Besides the hero community will be weak from fighting eachother, that some super villains could just go and easily defeat the "winning" side.

Also you think after the mess the mutant registration act caused, you would think they wouldn't want to repeat that mess again.
I still feel the government would do anything it could to put a leash on spuer powers. The risks are worth it to them. Sure, some bad guys might strike while they're weak, but the supers have always overcome them before, why should now be any different?

And yes, I very much feel our government would repeat a mess again. Here's a good history lesson: Operation Desert Storm, Operation Iraqi Freedom.

[Sam]

Reed: "Can't you see I'm busy being one of the avatars for a particular political viewpoint as part of a brutal conflict sparked by an utterly contrived situation involving sweeping competence lobotomies of the people therein!"

You know, this keeps on being lobbed about as a criticism, but how is there any incompetence going on here? I mean, ok, on the New Warriors' part, sure. But they're the New Warriors.

I find this intriguing partly because I can see all these characters acting in character, and intelligently, and something like this coming about. Marvel's been flirting with the idea of a Registration Act for decades. The idea of that act actually passing, and seeing how the heroes react and deal with it actually becoming a reality rather than just a potential worry, is not only a good idea for a story -- it's such an obvious good idea for a story I can't believe it wasn't done years ago.

That doesn't mean "Civil War" will necessarily be well written, but you're acting like this is something completely out of left field. As opposed to playing on one of Marvel's oldest bits of worldbuilding, which is in fact what it is.

[dingo]

You're right. My desire to have a conversation with an entire group of posters who tend to cluster around a particular board, on a subject which (gasp!) might indeed already be in discussion elsewhere on CBR, is clearly outside the bounds of social conduct -- nay, sanity itself.

CBR is not partitioned into groups of posters, it is partitioned into topics.
There is nothing at all stopping them from coming here.

Having said that, this seems to be a sticking point to you so perhaps I can suggest something.

Start another discussion wherever you are talking about and relate Civil War to that. If you came from the D.C. board, go back and start a thread "How would Marvels Civil War pan out in the DCU?" or something. That way you are keeping to the rules, and if you want to be sly you can direct the conversation from within the thread to what you want to talk about, but keep it grounded on topic.

(I don't know where you came from I am just guessing)

[Sam]

Or: even the most heavy handed Spider Man drug issue reads as fine subtlety compared to some of the interviews and previews to date. The analogies they used were worked into the characters, the characters weren't shoehorned into them to be ciphers for pseudo political debate.

Right, 'cause Xavier and Magneto are *totally* not avatars for real world political ideologies involved in any kind of political struggle. At all.

[Pendaran]

You know, this keeps on being lobbed about as a criticism, but how is there any incompetence going on here? I mean, ok, on the New Warriors' part, sure. But they're the New Warriors.

Who pre a miniseries that was a radar blip and ended with that show being cancelled anyway as I recall, are actually a fairly competent bunch as far as, say, not getting a bunch of schoolchildren killed.

Or, there's the Hulk thing. Strange banished him to another dimension. Yet here he is again. Dude's been sent to the Microverse, and yet finds his way back. How would Reed for instance not bother to think "you know, when we play the tape of us explaining what we did to a guy that is known for angry rampage, he might start smashing up his ship in a way that affects it going to shiny pastoral land".

Right, 'cause Xavier and Magneto are *totally* not avatars for real world political ideologies involved in any kind of political struggle. At all.

Yeah, they totally needed bad contrivance to shove them into being such as jarringly as possible and didn't have it worked in to their characters or anything.

The characters haven't especially been acting intelligently to date, and some of them are being made stupid so that the story can happen.

The politics aren't worked into the characters, the characters are being worked into the politics, or so it's been coming off to date.

[Sam]

Having said that, this seems to be a sticking point to you so perhaps I can suggest something.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "sticking point." I just find it silly, and sort of annoying.

One of the things that annoys me, in general, is heavy-handed moderation on the internet. Discussions are supposed to grow and change organically. That's how talking to people works in the real world. That's what makes it interesting. Except on messageboards, where for some reason people feel the need to try to corral everything into "on topic discussion" and curtail "thread drift" -- or as it's called in the real world, "conversation."

But, y'know, hey, it ain't my board.

[Sam]

It's more like saying the Kingpin should likely know better than to re-enact Born Again on Daredevil, even if the writer thinks he can score a really pithy or topical point by doing so that Born Again likely already scored, considering that the Kingpin might, say, know how things turned out last time.

But they've never done a story where the Mutant/Superhuman Registration Act actually passes and the heroes have to deal with it. (At least, not that I know of.)

This is the first time.

And it's an interesting idea.

[Sam]

Yeah, they totally needed bad contrivance to shove them into being such as jarringly as possible and didn't have it worked in to their characters or anything.

You keep saying the heroes are being forced into contrived positions.

How?

If the government passed a law like this, presumably the heroes would either comply or go against it. Is it that you disagree with which heroes are doing which?

[dingo]

It's more like saying the Kingpin should likely know better than to re-enact Born Again on Daredevil, even if the writer thinks he can score a really pithy or topical point by doing so that Born Again likely already scored, considering that the Kingpin might, say, know how things turned out last time.

As I said in the rest of my post (that you neglected to quote) they are not the same.

Civil War is like a draft.

Mutant registration was like an National Identification Cary

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Firstly I would say that if during a fight between heroes a supervillain attacked, they would at least put aside their differences for long enough to deal with it.

Secondly, if a Masters of Evil group attacked, they would not be in trouble, they would be better equipped to deal with them. Sheild would presumably dispatch a large team of meta's specifically chosen to deal with the specific threat rather than the current system of whoever finds them first has to deal with them. Hell, even if it was Daredevil who found them first he would at least have a system in place where he could call in backup like any normal law enforcement officer.

If during the civil war, a villainious mastermind uses subtle tactics and creates an army of super villains, it may be too late before the warring sides put aside their differences to stop them.

After the Civil war, I heard that a lot of the super heroes who opposed the government will move to Canada to form a new Alpha Flight, so the US government will have less heroes to defend them, this will weaken the super hero community in the US.

[Pendaran]

But they've never done a story where the Mutant/Superhuman Registration Act actually passes and the heroes have to deal with it. (At least, not that I know of.)

This is the first time.

And it's an interesting idea.

No, they merely did a story where nearly doing so was a gigantic mess that you'd think would linger in the mind as far as some senator going "you know, last time we tried something similar..."

[Pendaran]

You keep saying the heroes are being forced into contrived positions.

How?

If the government passed a law like this, presumably the heroes would either comply or go against it. Is it that you disagree with which heroes are doing which?

You keep missing that I said the situation that forces them into these positions is itself, which I guess to have to elaborate is the Nitro/Warriors thing, badly contrived.

But even barring that, the whole "Illuminati" fallout that's supposed to be the precursor spark to this.. involved stupid things. "Let's shoot the Hulk into space!" "Will that stick?" "Does it ever?" "We doing it anyway?" "Hells yeah!"

It comes off as mostly an attempt to grab some really topical headlines, and shove characters around so that they can be grabbed.

Which would be another difference from say, Kirby and others.

[Sam]

No, they merely did a story where nearly doing so was a gigantic mess that you'd think would linger in the mind as far as some senator going "you know, last time we tried something similar..."

Well, yeah. Then again, the last time the US government gave its intelligence bodies the powers granted by the Patriot Act it turned into a gigantic mess that resulted in loads of hearings, protests, criminal investigations, and ultimately the wholesale revocation of said powers.

Until some big tragedy happened to make them forget about that and gave the legislation new chops.

So -- Marvel's Congress is acting just like the real one. Those hacks.

[StoneGold]

After the Civil war, I heard that a lot of the super heroes who opposed the government will move to Canada to form a new Alpha Flight, so the US government will have less heroes to defend them, this will weaken the super hero community in the US.
Except that seems to have been at least partially debunked.


At the very least, what, you've never seen a government do something it thought was the right course of action, only to see it backfire? Can't think of any time that's ever happened in the recent past.

EDIT: Crap, Sam and I made the same basic passive aggressive joke to two different posts consecutively. What arethe odds of that?

[Pendaran]

Well, yeah. Then again, the last time the US government gave its intelligence bodies the powers granted by the Patriot Act it turned into a gigantic mess that resulted in loads of hearings, protests, criminal investigations, and ultimately the wholesale revocation of said powers.

Until some big tragedy happened to make them forget about that and gave the legislation new chops.

So -- Marvel's Congress is acting just like the real one. Those hacks.


Yes, it's almost as though the writers forced through some badly thought out happening in order so that comics wouldn't simply have real world analogies woven in, but be shoved into being some kind of direct and unsubtle mirror image they can more heavy handedly editorialize onto the world with. Much as I recall the issue where Magneto was assassinated by the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants after splitting from it and starting to preach a more tolerant message under his new splinter organization after he made a holy pilgrimage to Mutant Mecca.

Crazy man, crazy.

But if you're wondering, there's a difference illustration as far as how this is coming off as being handled. Magneto, when not crazy, tends to represent the more militant voices of persecuted races. And yet Magneto isn't made to live a mirror image of Malcolm X's life. Because you know, he's a fleshed out character, at least generally. Civil War on the other hand, well, as you've just demonstrated, lends far more easily to a topical mirroring roadmap. It reads as political excercise that needs forced situations that ignore various things about various characters to get to where it wants to go, just to start.

[Sam]

Yes, it's almost as though the writers forced through some badly thought out happening in order so that comics wouldn't simply have real world analogies woven in, but be shoved into being some kind of direct and unsubtle mirror image they can more heavy handedly editorialize onto the world with.

You know, "Superheroes fight supervillain, massive devastation results" is not actually a particularly difficult pill to swallow. The New Warriors aren't even acting particularly out of character in those preview pages.

Civil War on the other hand, well, as you've just demonstrated, lends far more easily to a topical mirroring roadmap.

This sounds rather a lot like you simply deciding the writing is bad because you don't like the idea of Marvel doing a political story with their characters. Especially since the parallels *aren't* direct. A tragedy happens, and some controversial and problematic legislation is passed as a response to it. Which is believable, as we just saw it happen in the real world.

But that's actually where the parallels end, unless I missed the raging civil war that broke out following the passage of the Patriot Act.

It reads as political excercise that needs forced situations that ignore various things about various characters to get to where it wants to go, just to start.

I have yet to see you actually provide any reason why you see the New Warriors/Nitro thing as forced, or what specific things about what specific characters are being ignored.

Wait, ok, the Hulk thing. Yes, that was sort of ill-conceived. I wasn't terribly impressed with "Illuminati" either. But Bendis isn't writing "Civil War," Millar is, so it seems sort of unfair to prejudge it based on a different author's work.

[Pendaran]

I have yet to see you actually provide any reason why you see the New Warriors/Nitro thing as forced, or what specific things about what specific characters are being ignored.

You seem to think the New Warriors are in character as reckless glory hounding dolts, picking a fight in the name thereof so I wouldn't really know what to tell you as far as you not seeing it as forced.

You know, "Superheroes fight supervillain, massive devastation results" is not actually a particularly difficult pill to swallow.

Superheroes pick reckless fight with supervillains near a school, massive devastation results, isn't off huh?

Especially since the parallels *aren't* direct.

That wasn't you drawing direct parallels here here then:

Well, yeah. Then again, the last time the US government gave its intelligence bodies the powers granted by the Patriot Act it turned into a gigantic mess that resulted in loads of hearings, protests, criminal investigations, and ultimately the wholesale revocation of said powers.

Until some big tragedy happened to make them forget about that and gave the legislation new chops.

So -- Marvel's Congress is acting just like the real one. Those hacks.

[StoneGold]

Yes, it's almost as though the writers forced through some badly thought out happening in order so that comics wouldn't simply have real world analogies woven in, but be shoved into being some kind of direct and unsubtle mirror image they can more heavy handedly editorialize onto the world with. Much as I recall the issue where Magneto was assassinated by the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants after splitting from it and starting to preach a more tolerant message under his new splinter organization after he made a holy pilgrimage to Mutant Mecca.

Crazy man, crazy.


So, because you can think of one specific way that Marvel hasn't previously mirrored the real world in superheroes, that means they never can? Never mind that some of the later stuff with the Acolytes mirror Magneto with Malcom X more, specifically in the way you are talking about, but that would be the Acolytes, not that Brotherhood.
We are talking about a superhero universe where Nixon's stepping down from office was handled by turning him into a supervillain who commits suicide in the Oval Office and is replaced by a double so he can step down. Seriously, Civil War is a ripple in the pond compared to that one.

[Pendaran]

So, because you can think of one specific way that Marvel hasn't previously mirrored the real world in superheroes, that means they never can? Never mind that some of the later stuff with the Acolytes mirror Magneto with Malcom X more, specifically in the way you are talking about, but that would be the Acolytes, not that Brotherhood.

I definitely remember the time Malcom X got taken out by his trusted lieutenant after he proclaimed that his orbital space asteroid would be a separate from humanity mutant kingdom defended by nukes, from which he would ocassionally rain down savage justice on anyone that would harm his people. Said lieutenant doing so in order to score points in an international deadpool of high profile mutant kills.

Or, without being excessive: Until Magneto gets assassinated by his own people for doing something of recant on extremism after a spiritual journey and being expelled from them just beforehand, he's not mirroring to the point of Sam's event mapping, especially.

Or: The Acolytes actually mirror the whole Malcolm thing really, really badly. Mag's message can sometimes be tracked onto Malcolm's. Smoother parallels like the one Sam was able to draw about Civil War that came close to event mapping, something of a rougher go.

You'd be making a stronger case to cite the Executioner's song except for the Xavier going on to live part. And the lack of potentially inferrable government conspiracies to have had him shot.

Also, no, it means that when they try to mirror them in a way that reads as forcibly shoving around some dumb contrivances to get things moving, it comes off as heavy handed, and well, dumb. That they need to do something hip, edgy and topical that overshadows the comics it's being done with.

We are talking about a superhero universe where Nixon's stepping down from office was handled by turning him into a supervillain who commits suicide in the Oval Office and is replaced by a double so he can step down. Seriously, Civil War is a ripple in the pond compared to that one.

And aside fom being spectacularly like unto the above, that particular arc doesn't seem to resound with legend in the memories or consciousness of comic book readers.

[StoneGold]

I definitely remember the time Malcom X got taken out by his trusted lieutenant after he proclaimed that his orbital space asteroid would be a separate from humanity mutant kingdom defended by nukes, from which he would ocassionally rain down savage justice on anyone that would harm his people. Said lieutenant doing so in order to score points in an international deadpool of high profile mutant kills.

Or, without being excessive: Until Magneto gets assassinated by his own people for doing something of recant on extremism after a spiritual journey and being expelled from them just beforehand, he's not mirroring to the point of Sam's event mapping, especially.

So you wantliteral parallels now? The idea isn't to rewrite the real world as superheroes. The idea is to examine real world issues through the lens of superheroes. And until you understand that, stick to Mary Worth. You'll find it more your speed.

[Sam]

You seem to think the New Warriors are in character as reckless glory hounding dolts, picking a fight in the name thereof so I wouldn't really know what to tell you as far as you not seeing it as forced.

Millar didn't come up with the idea of the New Warriors signing on to do a reality TV show where they fight supervillains for ratings. He's just playing with the toy someone else already left in the toybox.

Superheroes pick reckless fight with supervillains near a school, massive devastation results, isn't off huh?

They didn't pick a fight near a school. They picked a fight at the supervillain's hideout; the fight strayed near a school.

"Fight between hero and villain strays near innocent bystanders" is an idea as old as the genre -- the only difference here is that the hero didn't actually get the supervillain away from them again before he killed a bunch of people.

The only contrived bit is the idea that that sort of thing doesn't happen all the time.

That wasn't you drawing direct parallels here here then:

Yes. There are direct parallels. In the same way that there are direct parallels between Magneto and Malcolm X, without that automatically translating into complete mirror imaging of Magneto's life with Malcolm X's.

There are direct parallels between "Civil War" and real life events. That does not mean the entire story is just inserting characters into real life political events -- as rather obviously shown by the fact that the bulk of the story concerns a civil war between superheroes. I don't even know what kind of direct parallel in the real world you could even draw with that bit.

[Pendaran]

Millar didn't come up with the idea of the New Warriors signing on to do a reality TV show where they fight supervillains for ratings. He's just playing with the toy someone else already left in the toybox.

A toy that took the shape of a badly recieved miniseries that a lot of people lambasted for similarly savaging the characters within it as far as their portrayals across years and years had gone.

"Fight between hero and villain strays near innocent bystanders" is an idea as old as the genre -- the only difference here is that the hero didn't actually get the supervillain away from them again before he killed a bunch of people.

The only contrived bit is the idea that that sort of thing doesn't happen all the time.

Oh right, it's cool and intelligent because lots of people died and it can be a deconstructionist comment on the treatment of superheroes and the conventions of the genre and how much more grim and bleak they can be. I'd forgotten it was you Sam.

Yes. There are direct parallels.

Help me out here with following you:

Especially since the parallels *aren't* direct.

Picking one or what?

In the same way that there are direct parallels between Magneto and Malcolm X, without that automatically translating into complete mirror imaging of Magneto's life with Malcolm X's.

No, if it were the same, you could take out some of the big events in their lives and do some smooth event mapping ala you.

There are direct parallels between "Civil War" and real life events. That does not mean the entire story is just inserting characters into real life political events

If you're using direct paralells on real life events, if the entire event is moved along and can be mapped onto paralells onto real life events, how is not what then ensues after said paralell events, be it a superhero civil war, or, say, Judgementor, the heretofore unrevealed Celestial coming forth to pronounce cosmic judgement, going to serve as commentary directed at those events? When characters are specifically noted as going to be touting particular political points of view that will resonate in the modern sphere?

So you wantliteral parallels now? The idea isn't to rewrite the real world as superheroes. The idea is to examine real world issues through the lens of superheroes. And until you understand that, stick to Mary Worth. You'll find it more your speed.

So, you missed the part of that being a response to you saying that Mags and the Acolytes mirror Malcolm X's life? As far as going, no they don't particularly, and definitely not to the degree that just got invoked with the leadup to Civil War, as far as implications thereof? That it links overall to the clumsy and heavy handed nature of the far closer to literal parallells Civil War's buildup has so far? Are you not finding being able to follow posts and responses to them to be particularly your speed?

[Jake V]

A toy that took the shape of a badly recieved miniseries that a lot of people lambasted for similarly savaging the characters within it as far as their portrayals across years and years had gone.
And a lot of people liked it. Which group is right?

[StoneGold]

As far as going, no they don't particularly, and definitely not to the degree that just got invoked with the leadup to Civil War, as far as implications thereof? That it links overall to the clumsy and heavy handed nature of the far closer to literal parallells Civil War's buildup has so far? Are you not finding being able to follow posts and responses to them to be particularly your speed?
No, in that the first sentence I have quoted makes absolutely no sense. Was it supposed to be a question? Seriously, you're coming off like that old In Living Color sketch with Damon Wayans in prison.

In any case, hey, you don't like it. Sucks to be you. Oh well.

[The Cool Thatguy]

A toy that took the shape of a badly recieved miniseries that a lot of people lambasted for similarly savaging the characters within it as far as their portrayals across years and years had gone.


And lets not forget, the team didn't even start the show for glory. They did it to help out Thrash and take care of villains no one else would. As a Warrior fan, I'd have no cause to complain if it was just a no win situation that no one won as opposed to the Warriors hiding in the bushes like a bunch of idiots then attacking.

I mean hell, the Freedom Fighters got more characterization when the Society gutted them!

[Pendaran]

And a lot of people liked it. Which group is right?


Well, let's see... the group that liked the Warriors as competent was able to sustain a series across years. The group that grooved on all of that being junked and ignored couldn't hold up a fairly rapidly closed down set of comics.

Not that popularity is much of a judge, to be fair, considering the longevity of Brittany Spears' fame, but my leanings go to the people who didn't quite like characters being yanked goofily out of such and given IQ reduction surgery for no appreciable reason.

[Jake V]

Well, let's see... the group that liked the Warriors as competent was able to sustain a series across years. The group that grooved on all of that being junked and ignored couldn't hold up a fairly rapidly closed down set of comics.

Not that popularity is much of a judge, to be fair, considering the longevity of Brittany Spears' fame, but my leanings go to the people who didn't quite like characters being yanked goofily out of such and given IQ reduction surgery for no appreciable reason.
So the people who enjoyed the last miniseries were wrong to enjoy it? Or are you implying that there is something wrong with them for doing so?

[StoneGold]

And lets not forget, the team didn't even start the show for glory. They did it to help out Thrash and take care of villains no one else would. As a Warrior fan, I'd have no cause to complain if it was just a no win situation that no one won as opposed to the Warriors hiding in the bushes like a bunch of idiots then attacking.

I mean hell, the Freedom Fighters got more characterization when the Society gutted them!
I'm not even sure they were really acting like idiots. Oh, sure, the newscasts are saying they were acting like idiots, but that's a lot of armchair quarterbacking. Really, is what they did any stupider than starting a metahuman battle in the middle of Manhattan?

[Pendaran]

So the people who enjoyed the last miniseries were wrong to enjoy it? Or are you implying that there is something wrong with them for doing so?

If they want to tell me it wasn't some inherently flawed work that didn't sweepingly ignore how the characters in it had been previously portrayed and recast them as bumbling goobers, I'd say that they're wrong, sure.

Or, examined even just as a premise.

Ok, so, it's a New Warriors series, but the way it's set up isn't going to particularly draw in, or keep in fans of the characters. So, ok, it needs to try to draw in new fans, since said previous fans, while they kept the old book going for quite a while, especially by current standards, were not enough to keep it from being axed eventually.

So, how are they going to do that? With an art style of limited and controversial appeal at best, and a premise based in a trend that was by then old and played out in popular culture as far as seeming, like, say, Civil War, hip and exciting and whatever..

Doesn't seem thusly like a work with a lot of thought put into it.

But yeah, I have to say, I'm not a fan of supporting the "gut characterization when there's a chance to make a buck off of it" premise.

*shrug* If you liked it, that's nice. Not going to change that it's an example of a particularly crappy trend in comics, among other things.

[Pendaran]

I'm not even sure they were really acting like idiots. Oh, sure, the newscasts are saying they were acting like idiots, but that's a lot of armchair quarterbacking. Really, is what they did any stupider than starting a metahuman battle in the middle of Manhattan?

Picking it for the sake of ratings? When there was a school actually fairly nearby? When they get commentary from even the villains about their patheticness?

[StoneGold]

Picking it for the sake of ratings? When there was a school actually fairly nearby? When they get commentary from even the villains about their patheticness?
Read old issues of New Warriors. They got commentary back then too.

And given that most metahuman battles happen on one of the most densely populated pieces of real estate on earth... well, you do the math.

[Jake V]

Picking it for the sake of ratings? When there was a school actually fairly nearby? When they get commentary from even the villains about their patheticness?
Patheticness in underestimating the abilities of the villians, I guess. But then, the New Warriors beat each villain within the house they were staying at or in the backyard pretty easily, except for Nitro who only managed to get as far as accross the street. Up until that point, they looked nothing lime amateurs, but instead a highly trained superhero team that can take a group of supervillains without getting hit. Now, I could be wrong, but given Nitro's previously established abilities, they would have had no reason to think that he could have exploded that large. It looked (to me) like they walked into a trap. Nitro got some sort of power boost that no one could have known about and surprised them.

You can't fault them for picking a fight near a school. How many schools are there in NYC? Are we to assume that a superhero fight never took place near one?

[Pendaran]

You can't fault them for picking a fight near a school. How many schools are there in NYC? Are we to assume that a superhero fight never took place near one?


That the Superheroes planned as an ambush who's tactics amounted to mass charge? During school hours? To increase their ratings share? You do also realize that the fight doesn't happen in Manhattan or NYC?

Read old issues of New Warriors. They got commentary back then too.

And would generally keep on fighting in a way that often got the grudging acknowledgement of the people they faced. Or at least in a manner that showed the reader that no, they weren't pathetic, they were giving their all and doing it well, the person on the other end just happened to be Terrax or the Sphinx. Or you know, would despite that commentary come out with the win. It says something about how the team is being depicted that they get called pathetic, then get exploded along with scads of innocent bystanders.

There's also Tony Stark's whole prophetic narration bit in the big lead up to Civil War, Illuminati, that talks about how a hero will do something wrong and make a mistake.

They're set up in advance to be at fault and that all kinds of people are calling it a mistake, beyond the media, right from the foreshadowing.

[Jake V]

That the Superheroes planned as an ambush who's tactics amounted to mass charge?
The plan wasn't a charge. They charged because they got made.

During school hours?
I'm assuming then, that all other superhero fights accross the Marvel universe take place after 3 pm.

To increase their ratings share? You do also realize that the fight doesn't happen in Manhattan or NYC?
Does it matter? There are more potential innocent bystanders in NYC.

[Pendaran]

Does it matter? There are more potential innocent bystanders in NYC.

If the arguement is

How many schools are there in NYC? Are we to assume that a superhero fight never took place near one?

It certainly matters. How many schools are in some small town? Would it be so hard not to pick your fight near one, with schools not being, say, all over the place?

I'm assuming then, that all other superhero fights accross the Marvel universe take place after 3 pm.


I'm having a hard time tracking down all these other planned, hero initiated ambushes that went down near areas full of children despite not being in a thickly clustered city in the name of ratings.

[Kevinroc]

The plan wasn't a charge. They charged because they got made.

Yup, they got found out and just had to charge before they got away.


I'm assuming then, that all other superhero fights accross the Marvel universe take place after 3 pm.

I recall an issue early in JMS' Amazing Spider-Man run where Spidey had to stop a kid with a gun who was shooting up the school. Should Spidey not have fought because it took place in a school before 3 p.m.?

Does it matter? There are more potential innocent bystanders in NYC.

Stamford is something of a small town with a population of just a little over 117,000 people (as of the 2000 census).

[Pendaran]

I recall an issue early in JMS' Amazing Spider-Man run where Spidey had to stop a kid with a gun who was shooting up the school. Should Spidey not have fought because it took place in a school before 3 p.m.?

Did Spiderman arrange to have a fight with multiple villains near the school by his own planning and approach? You can't really compare the two. Peter's reacting, the Warriors were trying to ambush.

Yup, they got found out and just had to charge before they got away.


Is this at that an arguement for their supposedly competent portrayal despite all the in comic commentary, foreshadowing of mistakes, bystander death toll, ratings commentary, and the like?

[Kevinroc]

If the arguement is



It certainly matters. How many schools are in some small town? Would it be so hard not to pick your fight near one, with schools not being, say, all over the place?



I'm having a hard time tracking down all these other planned, hero initiated ambushes that went down near areas full of children despite not being in a thickly clustered city in the name of ratings.

Well, here's what Wikipedia says about the education in Stamford, Connectecticut (where this fight takes place):

Stamford has branches of the University of Connecticut, University of Bridgeport and Sacred Heart University. The University of Connecticut's campus is located in a large modern building in downtown that opened in 1998 after extensive renovations to an abandoned former Bloomingdales store. The other two are located in small office parks in Springdale. All are commuter campuses.

At one time, Stamford had a well-funded public education system. However, budget cuts by the city's Board of Finance in recent years have put a strain on the school system. Stamford is a fully integrated school district whose racial balance requirements exceed those of the state of Connecticut. State standards require that a school's racial makeup be within 25% of the community's racial makeup. Stamford's standard is a more strict 10%. Over the years, schools have become unbalanced, leading to a real need for redistricting. Stamford has four high schools, Westhill High School, Stamford High School, Trinity Catholic High School and the Academy of Information Technology and Engineering.

Stamford's public library, the Ferguson Library, is one of the largest in Connecticut. In addition to the main library downtown, it has branches in South End, Springdale, and the Turn of River sections of the city. The Turn of River branch, officially called the Harry Bennett Branch, is the largest library branch in the state.

It's basically a college town. So essentially, there are a lot of schools there. And it's much easier to accept the public outrage over very young children being killed over a bunch of college students.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The plan wasn't a charge. They charged because they got made.

And they got made because the entire team, long with their camera man, were hiding in the bushes of a back yard like a bunch of rookies. I swear, it was like a scene out of the Simpsons.

I'm assuming then, that all other superhero fights accross the Marvel universe take place after 3 pm.

The difference is that the Warriors actively chose this battle. It wasn't like The Rhino suddenly going on a rampage. The Warriors sought these villains out and actively engaged them. That makes them somewhat responsible.

[Will.S]

I'm having a hard time tracking down all these other planned, hero initiated ambushes that went down near areas full of children despite not being in a thickly clustered city in the name of ratings.
But why hasn't it it happened until recently? I think this type of collateral damage that comes with such heavy casualties from a superhero vs supervillain fight hasn't been as properly explored as it has with what Civil War will be doing.

I like that they used the New Warriors since they're experienced but still a team that can be suceptible to such an attack. And with Nitro he's always unpredictable and was dangerous to even for the Heroes for Hire who had the roster of Iron Fist, White Tiger (female), Black Knight and Hercules.

[Jake V]

It certainly matters. How many schools are in some small town? Would it be so hard not to pick your fight near one, not being, say, all over the place?
Stamford CT isn't a small town. Perhaps they should have asked the villains to hide out in a house a little further away from a school. Obviously, the New Warriors didn't act like the Avengers, they weren't (and never were) experienced professionals As far as I'm concerned, that was their appeal. They were cocky, and underestimated the willingless of Nitro to do something that horrible.

That being said, I have no problem with superheros getting portrayed like chumps. They're not sacred to me. I look at comics as entertainment not unlike movies or TV. I don't think some moral message needs to be upheld.

I see what you're saying, I respect your opinion, but I just don't care. I find it entertaining, I find it interesting. I won't apologize for it.

[Pendaran]

If Stamford is a small college town of 117,000 or so people, I'm not going to find it plausible to have it invoked that it would be like an ambush planned in NYC, that no matter where you are, you're around hordes of people. That they couldn't have tried anywhere less populated, nor at least, anywhere without a school full of children.

But regardless..

And it's much easier to accept the public outrage over very young children being killed over a bunch of college students.

See point re: contrived.

[Pendaran]

Stamford CT isn't a small town. Perhaps they should have asked the villains to hide out in a house a little further away from a school. Obviously, the New Warriors didn't act like the Avengers, they weren't (and never were) experienced professionals As far as I'm concerned, that was their appeal. They were cocky, and underestimated the willingless of Nitro to do something that horrible.


And except for that they became experienced professionals in their own series... But you've noted that you're uncaring of that portrayal being ignored as is.

Stamford CT, compared to say, New York of the thickly clustered throngs that was being invoked for why the Warriors are no worse than anyone, is a small town.

[Kevinroc]

Did Spiderman arrange to have a fight with multiple villains near the school by his own planning and approach? You can't really compare the two. Peter's reacting, the Warriors were trying to ambush.

The Warriors were trying to capture very dangerous super villains who escaped from prison. What exactly were they supposed to do? A stake-out?

And if the villains thought they were being watched and started holding people hostage? What then?

Is this at that an arguement for their supposedly competent portrayal despite all the in comic commentary, foreshadowing of mistakes, bystander death toll, ratings commentary, and the like?

Well, looking at it from a certain perspective, we can see the story build-up actually making some deal of sense. The Marvel Universe was founded on the concept of heroes making mistakes.

[Pendaran]

Well, looking at it from a certain perspective, we can see the story build-up actually making some deal of sense. The Marvel Universe was founded on the concept of heroes making mistakes.

There's making mistakes, and there's hiding in the bushes with your camera crew. Super kung fu ninjas as cameramen are.

The Warriors were trying to capture very dangerous super villains who escaped from prison. What exactly were they supposed to do? A stake-out?


So.. bring your camera crew, and don't even try to see if you can maybe have the fight somewhere else, apparently?

[Kevinroc]

There's making mistakes, and there's hiding in the bushes with your camera crew. Super kung fu ninjas as cameramen are.

The Warriors were extremely arrogent regarding the capture of these villains.

So.. bring your camera crew, and don't even try to see if you can maybe have the fight somewhere else, apparently?

Yeah, because super villains are so accomedating.

[Jake V]

There's making mistakes, and there's hiding in the bushes with your camera crew. Super kung fu ninjas as cameramen are.



So.. bring your camera crew, and don't even try to see if you can maybe have the fight somewhere else, apparently?
It sounds like you're complaining that they got cocky and made a mistake. When the entire point is that they got cocky and made a mistake. Yes, it's contrived, but what story isn't contrived?

[Pendaran]

I'm complaining that they were shown as reckless, arrogant incompetent morons concerned with ratings, yes, but then, I've been exceptionally clear about that. Because you know, they aren't especially that.

And it's contrived because among other things, it royally guts their past characterizations and development to recast them as morons, ignoring years and years of development of such to grab onto a blip of a series and carry it along from there.

Yeah, because super villains are so accomedating.


They also never do things like move around as far as even remotely bothering to look into if it's possible to do this somewhere else.

[Kevinroc]

It sounds like you're complaining that they got cocky and made a mistake. When the entire point is that they got cocky and made a mistake. Yes, it's contrived, but what story isn't contrived?

We're talking about a story that revolves around people in funny costumes beating up other people in funny costumes.

[Pendaran]

So it doesn't need things like characterization then?

[Kevinroc]

I'm complaining that they were shown as reckless, arrogant incompetent morons concerned with ratings, yes, but then, I've been exceptionally clear about that. Because you know, they aren't especially that.

And it's contrived because among other things, it royally guts their past characterizations and development to recast them as morons, ignoring years and years of development of such to grab onto a blip of a series and carry it along from there.

Arrogant? A relative of Namor? Never! :p

They also never do things like move around as far as even remotely bothering to look into if it's possible to do this somewhere else.

"Dear super-villains. I challge you to meet us at this location where no innocents will be hurt. Signed, The New Warriors."

[Jake V]

So it doesn't need things like characterization then?
It's got characterization. Just not the characterization that you like.

No one's forcing you to buy it. No one's forcing you to read it. So don't.

[Kevinroc]

So it doesn't need things like characterization then?

Oh, we're gettin' characterization. But I think we will be seeing the "unpleasent" side to certain characters because of what the story is about.

[Pendaran]

Arrogant? A relative of Namor? Never!

My god, you're right, how couldn't I have seen it! Years and years of the Warriors coming together as a well functioning competent team were some crazy fever dream of mine!

"Dear super-villains. I challge you to meet us at this location where no innocents will be hurt. Signed, The New Warriors."

Yeah, that's exactly what I said, it's certainly ridiculous that, say, Night Thrasher would do things like first try to determine what patterns of movement they use, how they restock supplies, or anything at all like that.

"Dear Pendaran, any and all criticisms of Civil War bear no legitimacy whatsoever, you're just not cool enough to get it, with your stupid insistence on things like characters not being crapped on to set up some contrived characterization and plot"

It's got characterization. Just not the characterization that you like.


Yeah, shallow characterization that has nothing to do with the careers of the people involved across the majority of the comics they appeared in, but I'm wacky to be bugged by that.

[Jake V]

Yeah, shallow characterization that has nothing to do with the careers of the people involved across the majority of the comics they appeared in, but I'm wacky to be bugged by that.
Not wacky, its just that you seem to be the only one that cares. I'm sure there are more that care as well, but at the same time, there are many people who don't hold the characters as sacred as you do, and would rather just read an entertaining comic book.

Obviously, you don't find it entertaining, but don't presume to hold your beliefs of what comics should be higher than those of people who disagree with you.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The Warriors were extremely arrogent regarding the capture of these villains.



Yeah, because super villains are so accomedating.

Well, first, the Warriors were never this cocky in heir first two series, nor were they in their third. As for attacking the villains, how simple a concept is it not to provoke them until you can get a better handle on the situation?

[Pendaran]

how simple a concept is it not to provoke them until you can get a better handle on the situation?

Apparently inordinately complex and clearly beyond the faculties of the Warriors. But then, they are arrogant stupidfaces. I heard one of them is related to Namor!

[Pendaran]

Not wacky, its just that you seem to be the only one that cares. I'm sure there are more that care as well, but at the same time, there are many people who don't hold the characters as sacred as you do, and would rather just read an entertaining comic book.

Obviously, you don't find it entertaining, but don't presume to hold your beliefs of what comics should be higher than those of people who disagree with you.

I've seen threads full of posts ragging on it, and there's been someone else in thread besides me griping about it.

Obviously, you do find it entertaining, and presume to hold your beliefs of what comics should be higher than those of people who disagree with you to the point of deciding how many people care about a thing or don't, to even the point of saying how many of them are posting in a particular thread. But acknowledging that there was would get in the way of telling me I'm the only one that cares, I'd suppose.

[Jake V]

I've seen threads full of posts ragging on it, and there's been someone else in thread besides me griping about it.

Obviously, you do find it entertaining, and presume to hold your beliefs of what comics should be higher than those of people who disagree with you to the point of deciding how many people care about a thing or don't, to even the point of saying how many of them are posting in a particular thread. But acknowledging that there was would get in the way of telling me I'm the only one that cares, I'd suppose.
Did you miss where I said "I'm sure there are more that care as well"?

I can edit my previous post and put it in bold, if you like.

[Pendaran]

Did you miss starting it by telling me that it seems like I'm the only one that cares? Can I help it when you can't get your statements to match up?

You're also the one telling me that the Warriors never were competent experienced professionals, as far as your opinion being comic law, nevermind what actually.. happened in comics. If we're talking about people presuming to hold what they say above statements of others.

You'd think someone buying into their screed about respecting all wouldn't bandy about never like that.

[Will.S]

Yea I think we ran this argument pretty much into the ground......

[Kevinroc]

My god, you're right, how couldn't I have seen it! Years and years of the Warriors coming together as a well functioning competent team were some crazy fever dream of mine!

Especially when The New Warriors were down to four members by the start of Civil War. Night Thrasher, Namorita, Speedball and Microbe.


Yeah, that's exactly what I said, it's certainly ridiculous that, say, Night Thrasher would do things like first try to determine what patterns of movement they use, how they restock supplies, or anything at all like that.

"Dear Pendaran, any and all criticisms of Civil War bear no legitimacy whatsoever, you're just not cool enough to get it, with your stupid insistence on things like characters not being crapped on to set up some contrived characterization and plot"

So essentially, you're saying that comic characters should always be written as this at all times. Not every little twist that a writer chooses to do to showcase a character is a succes for that character but what you're talking about would be a deathkneel for these characters as a whole.

The Hulk would certainly not have developed at all if writers weren't allowed to experiment with the character.

Criticism by itself is not wrong. But what you're doing is focusing so completely on the minutiae that I seriously wonder if you could ever handle any kind of story where a "good" character makes any kind of mistake.

You also have ignored numerous posts in this thread that continue to point certain facts out to you.

Besides which, you're ignoring things like Night Thrasher's own little breakdown, Namorita's own problems revolving around her bad relationships, Microbe's just plain inexperience, and the joke that is Speedball.

The New Warriors definitely weren't at their "peak" as you seem to think. The team had gone through a lot of problems in recent years.

Yeah, shallow characterization that has nothing to do with the careers of the people involved across the majority of the comics they appeared in, but I'm wacky to be bugged by that.

The New Warriors had a failed mini-series and a failed relaunch a few years before that.

The New Warriors relaunch back in 1999 lasted all of 10 issues. The Previous limited from 2005 just didn't sell at all.

From Marvel's perspective, The New Warriors weren't doing anything for them.

So they chose to kill off 3 of these members (remember that there is a survivor). From a marketing perspective, the surviving member can reform the team with other members like Nova, Justice, Firestar and others.

There ya go, now you can have a big New Warriors revival that people will be interested in because of Civil War.

[StoneGold]

You're also the one telling me that the Warriors never were competent experienced professionals,

Not when Fabian was writing them. Those were the days, when they were getting Rage to steal Quinjets, killing their fathers, the whole team getting pretty much raped single handed by Gideon, Nita getting her teammates' brothers' fingers cut off because she was horny, etc.

[Jake V]

Did you miss starting it by telling me that it seems like I'm the only one that cares? Can I help it when you can't get your statements to match up?

You're also the one telling me that the Warriors never were competent experienced professionals, as far as your opinion being comic law, nevermind what actually.. happened in comics. If we're talking about people presuming to hold what they say above statements of others.
I should have prefaced it by saying that right now, in this thread, you seem to be the only one that cares. And at the same time, I'm sure there are others.

I did say that as far as I knew (or cared) the New Warriors weren't experienced professionals. I'll admit to not reading every New Warriors comic there is, so it's very possible that they became a well oiled machine by the time their ongoing got cancelled for the second time.

Should I be required to read the entire history of the New Warriors before I can say whether or not I enjoy how they're shown in Civil War #1? Should it be a requirement of everyone who reads Civil War, just so they can get as outraged as you? Who is Civil War being written for? A large audience, or the New Warrior's fans?

[Kevinroc]

I should have prefaced it by saying that right now, in this thread, you seem to be the only one that cares. And at the same time, I'm sure there are others.

I did say that as far as I knew (or cared) the New Warriors weren't experienced professionals. I'll admit to not reading every New Warriors comic there is, so it's very possible that they became a well oiled machine by the time their ongoing got cancelled for the second time.

Should I be required to read the entire history of the New Warriors before I can say whether or not I enjoy how they're shown in Civil War #1? Should it be a requirement of everyone who reads Civil War, just so they can get as outraged as you? Who is Civil War being written for? A large audience, or the New Warrior's fans?

And Stonegold just answered how "professional" The New Warriors were.

Not when Fabian was writing them. Those were the days, when they were getting Rage to steal Quinjets, killing their fathers, the whole team getting pretty much raped single handed by Gideon, Nita getting her teammates' brothers' fingers cut off because she was horny, etc.

[StoneGold]

And Stonegold just answered how "professional" The New Warriors were.
Don't forget when Robbie got his secret ID leaked so they had to let Hindsight Lad on the team. It's hard to be professional when Hindsight Lad is your teammate.

[Pendaran]

Especially when The New Warriors were down to four members by the start of Civil War. Night Thrasher, Namorita, Speedball and Microbe.

And the shock and trauma of that caused Night Thrasher, Namorita and Speedball to forget everything they did, learned or accomplished throughout their lives.

Not when Fabian was writing them. Those were the days, when they were getting Rage to steal Quinjets, killing their fathers, the whole team getting pretty much raped single handed by Gideon, Nita getting her teammates' brothers' fingers cut off because she was horny, etc.

Fighting Terrax and making him hurt, being the point of the spear in a mutant resistance against the Sphinx, nearly grabbing Vance from being hauled off to the Vault only for Vance to rebuff them, do his time, and mature resultingly, having the point made again and again that their powers and competence were growing, Nova developing his gravimetric pulse, and going on even in the Fabian era to be in a stage of improving and building up from where they started. And improved thereafter.

Criticism by itself is not wrong. But what you're doing is focusing so completely on the minutiae that I seriously wonder if you could ever handle any kind of story where a "good" character makes any kind of mistake

I seriously wonder why it's minutae for the Warriors to go from what they were to ratings hounds picking reckless fights with camera crew on hand.

You also have ignored numerous posts in this thread that continue to point certain facts out to you.


And your posts have definitely especially addressed any points I've made, especially the "dear supervillains" one, that felt all kinds of thorough and measured. Hrm, I did perhaps miss the subtle rhetorical nuances of being compared to some dude from In Living Colour and told to go read Mary Worth. This is certainly the time to invoke the whole holier than thou of "why can't you be positive and like things!", because I've certainly been in a positive and likable discourse.

The New Warriors had a failed mini-series and a failed relaunch a few years before that.

The New Warriors relaunch back in 1999 lasted all of 10 issues. The Previous limited from 2005 just didn't sell at all.

From Marvel's perspective, The New Warriors weren't doing anything for them.

So they chose to kill off 3 of these members (remember that there is a survivor). From a marketing perspective, the surviving member can reform the team with other members like Nova, Justice, Firestar and others.

There ya go, now you can have a big New Warriors revival that people will be interested in because of Civil War.

I'm missing where this is an arguement that they haven't suffered from warped characterization...

And Stonegold just answered how "professional" The New Warriors were.


While waving off anything laudable they'd done.

But hey, only I ignore points.

[StoneGold]

While waving off anything laudable they'd done.

But hey, only I ignore points.
Or misunderstand them. The point wasn't that they were complete screwups. Just that they were screwups. They did good too, but part of the charm of the team was that they were unprofessional. Read any interview with FabNic about the team, and he says they were less a team, more a pro-active social club, which is why guys like Darkhawk or Cloak and Dagger would drift in and out of it occasionally. So the idea that they were connsumate professionals who always had their act together is false. They also weren't complete and total screwups. They were somewhere in the middle. They had good days. They had bad days. Is there a chance that Stamford could have been one of their bad days?


Also keep in mind, every one of those competant moments you mentioned had key involvement by characters no longer on the team.

[Nomad]

Keep going! It's like comic nerds 101, and I don't have to pay tuition or anything.

Question about the last New Warriors incarnation- did they intend to tie this in to an, (perhaps unknown at the time) event from the start of the series, or did the reality tv show thing start way before then? How many issues are we talking here?
It just seems like having the cameras catch this whole mess was planned in advance, (from the civil war end), but from the tone of this thread I gather the series wasn't leading up to this kind of trainwreck...

[StoneGold]

Keep going! It's like comic nerds 101, and I don't have to pay tuition or anything.

Question about the last New Warriors incarnation- did they intend to tie this in to an, (perhaps unknown at the time) event from the start of the series, or did the reality tv show thing start way before then? How many issues are we talking here?
It just seems like having the cameras catch this whole mess was planned in advance, (from the civil war end), but from the tone of this thread I gather the series wasn't leading up to this kind of trainwreck...
From interviews given, the Warriors just ended up at the perfect place at the end of their mini to be the cannon fodder Millar needed to spark CW.

[Pendaran]

Or misunderstand them. The point wasn't that they were complete screwups. Just that they were screwups. They did good too, but part of the charm of the team was that they were unprofessional. Read any interview with FabNic about the team, and he says they were less a team, more a pro-active social club, which is why guys like Darkhawk or Cloak and Dagger would drift in and out of it occasionally. So the idea that they were connsumate professionals who always had their act together is false. They also weren't complete and total screwups. They were somewhere in the middle. They had good days. They had bad days. Is there a chance that Stamford could have been one of their bad days?


Also keep in mind, every one of those competant moments you mentioned had key involvement by characters no longer on the team.

When you're invoking Vance killing his dad in response to physical abuse as one of their incompetent moments, Vance's competent ones get invoked.

And when Speedball's done stuff like admonish Thrasher to help him pick up garbage and clear debris and not care that they needed help from other teams, Speedball as "go go ratings!" and in general "GO!" doesn't really work for me, even on their bad days.

To the point where they are lugging cameramen to crappy ambushes where they skulk in the bushes..

Their bad days are things like Gideon the pre lawsuit, and thus deadly and potent External taking them apart. Or Rage stealing a Quinjet. That's well beyond. And generally their motivations in such were things like going after Dwayne during the Folding Circle bit, or trying to combat AIM, not seeking ratings.

That's incompetence as a team, invoked from issues preceeding it as a mistake that will cause the Civil War in foreshadowing, invoked as them being low rent and pathetic in an issue where they then proceed to get exploded along with innocent bystanders..

The point of the Warriors was that as rough as they were in some of their depictions, they could pull through and earn respect with what they did. Hell, their efforts with the Sphinx saved the world.

This was them as in fact, complete and total screwups, as the efforts to say they weren't being such boiled down to "well, it just bothers you that they are being complete and total screwups", which they aren't especially. When not depicted in Civil War and in that mini.

And even in the Fabian issues /they got better over time/. They matured and developed as characters.

As just mentioned, this is just them being used as cannon fodder.

[StoneGold]

When you're invoking Vance killing his dad in response to physical abuse as one of their incompetent moments, Vance's competent ones get invoked.

And when Speedball's done stuff like admonish Thrasher to help him pick up garbage and not care that they needed help from other teams, Speedball as "go go ratings!" and in general "GO!" doesn't really work for me, even on their bad days.

To the point where they are lugging cameramen to crappy ambushes where they skulk in the bushes..

Their bad days are things like Gideon the pre lawsuit, and thus deadly and potent External taking them apart. Or Rage stealing a Quinjet. That's well beyond.

That's incompetence as a team, invoked from issues preceeding it as a mistake that will cause the Civil War in foreshadowing, invoked as them being low rent and pathetic in an issue where they then proceed to get exploded along with innocent bystanders..

The point of the Warriors was that as rough as they were in some of their depictions, they could pull through and earn respect with what they did. Hell, their efforts with the Sphinx saved the world.

This was them as in fact, complete and total screwups, as the efforts to say they weren't being such boiled down to "well, it just bothers you that they are being complete and total screwups", which they aint.

And even in the Fabian issues /they got better over time/. They matured and developed as characters.

As just mentioned, this is just them being used as cannon fodder.
Yes. I picked one Vance moment, and a bunch of moments where everyone f'd up. Including the team's power players. Whereas all the really good moments you chose involved the team's power players, who weren't there that day.


As for the team getting better over time, Nita getting the team's family kidnapped happened after Robertson joined the book, so it was towards the later end of his run. So was Hindsight Lad. As was Nita turning all blue and psychotic. So yes, they did get better as the run went on. But they weren't immune from mistakes, either.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Or misunderstand them. The point wasn't that they were complete screwups. Just that they were screwups. They did good too, but part of the charm of the team was that they were unprofessional. Read any interview with FabNic about the team, and he says they were less a team, more a pro-active social club, which is why guys like Darkhawk or Cloak and Dagger would drift in and out of it occasionally. So the idea that they were connsumate professionals who always had their act together is false. They also weren't complete and total screwups. They were somewhere in the middle. They had good days. They had bad days. Is there a chance that Stamford could have been one of their bad days?


Also keep in mind, every one of those competant moments you mentioned had key involvement by characters no longer on the team.

I fail to see how being taken apart by an immortal mutant makes them idiots. Nita screwed up because she was under stress at the time and Hindsight was tolerated as a means for a supporting cast.

However, regardless of their mistakes as persons, as a team they were alwats very well organized. When Genetech caught them flat footed, Night Thrasher planned for a second encounter and they trashed the Pisonex. The Warriors held their own against the Sphinx, Super Nova and Terrax, all powerful villains who've stalemated the FF, Avengers or both.

While luck did play a factor in some parts of the battle, so did skill. I remember that when the Warriors fought Sphinx and Terrax, civilians were an active concern (it didn't matter with Super Nova 'cause they were in space). So yeah, it's kinda hard to accept that they'd be so stupid as to tackle four villains near a school.

[Pendaran]

As for the team getting better over time, Nita getting the team's family kidnapped happened after Robertson joined the book, so it was towards the later end of his run. So was Hindsight Lad. As was Nita turning all blue and psychotic. So yes, they did get better as the run went on. But they weren't immune from mistakes, either.

Once again, acknowledging that they got better as the run went on matches poorly with saying it makes all kinds of sense that they were complete and total screwups in Stamford, because all of that improvement magically went away to the point of a completely and sweepingly stupid mistake such as they had never made. As a team no less.

[Pendaran]

So yeah, it's kinda hard to accept that they'd be so stupid as to tackle four villains near a school.

You forgot "while trying to capture it all on film, and including some joe cameraman in their hidden ambush efforts".

[Kevinroc]

And the shock and trauma of that caused Night Thrasher, Namorita and Speedball to forget everything they did, learned or accomplished throughout their lives.

Nighttrasher? Honestly? Yeah.

From his Wikipedia entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Thrasher


The Warriors fought crime together fairly successfully for a respectable amount of time, but Dwayne stumbled across some alarming inconsistencies in the sham that was his life. He first discovered that his company was involved in very shady practices, and this initial inconsistency led him inevitably to unravel the lies that he had been fed since childhood. Nothing was as it seemed. In the end, a very bizarre mystically oriented conspiracy was revealed, along with new villains in the form of the Folding Circle, and Tai's true role was made clear.

During this time Dwayne became very erratic, did some questionable things, formally disbanded the Warriors (though the other members ignored him and carried on), and even went over to the other side for a while.

In the aftermath of this event, the Warriors were never quite the same. The line up changed a bit, and Dwayne was an off-again, on-again presence. He suffered further issues along the way, including losing his girlfriend (and sometime Warrior ally) Silhouette to his alleged half-brother, a strange individual known as Bandit. Dwayne was also no longer the undisputed leader of the Warriors; most of the group turned to first Namorita and then Justice for leadership.

Nita's wiki entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namorita

When Night Thrasher eventually took a hiatus from the Warriors, Nita would lead the Warriors. But the stress of leading the Warriors, learning her cloned nature, and running Namor during his absence proved too much. At a dance bar she became drunk and left with the leader of the Poison Memories gang, who wanted to gain vengeance against the Warriors and took information he was able to steal from Nita's apartment to kidnap many of the Warriors' family members. After the surviving family members were rescued, Nita left the Warriors due to her guilt over her involvement in the predicament.

Nita would return to Atlantis, only to be denied entry as the rest of Atlantis discovered her clone nature. This seemed to be the final catalyst for Nita, as an over-saturation of oxygen, plus DNA spliced into her by Vyrra at her creation caused her to metamorphisis into a closer version of the original Atlanteans, causing her to give herself the name Kymaera. After adventuring some more with the Warriors she was captured by those who wanted to experiment on her, only to be rescued by Night Thrasher after receiving a tip from the Mad Thinker.

One day, Namorita became covered with pus-filled boils. Her lover, Nova saw Nita in this hideous state and abandoned her. A crestfallen Namorita went to take a shower. To her surprise, during the shower her skin went back to its original pink tone. She also shed her pointed ears, webbed hands, and glassy black eyes. Namorita continued to mutate and developed new powers. She found that she could secrete burning acid or a paralytic toxin and could become transparent. After her breakup with Nova, Namorita briefly dated Johnny Storm, Human Torch.

As far as Speedball, Marvel's been treating Speedball as comic relief for a few years now. The wiki entries will probably need to be updated as they used Amazing Spider-Man #531 as proof that Speedball survives. (So that's only update that stuff if Speedball isn't the survivor.)

Fighting Terrax and making him hurt, being the point of the spear in a mutant resistance against the Sphinx, nearly grabbing Vance from being hauled off to the Vault only for Vance to rebuff them, do his time, and mature resultingly, having the point made again and again that their powers and competence were growing, Nova developing his gravimetric pulse, and going on even in the Fabian era to be in a stage of improving and building up from where they started. And improved thereafter.

Was this Terrax at his full power (where he creamed the Warriors) or the not at full power just revived Terrax?

And some of those members weren't even there when Civil War begins.


I seriously wonder why it's minutae for the Warriors to go from what they were to ratings hounds picking reckless fights with camera crew on hand.

Because they're all pretty damned messed up. You're the Warriors expert, right? So tell me about those Wiki entries?

And your posts have definitely especially addressed any points I've made, especially the "dear supervillains" one, that felt all kinds of thorough and measured. Hrm, I did perhaps miss the subtle rhetorical nuances of being compared to some dude from In Living Colour and told to go read Mary Worth. This is certainly the time to invoke the whole holier than thou of "why can't you be positive and like things!", because I've certainly been in a positive and likable discourse.

I believe you when you say you can have fun.

I'm missing where this is an arguement that they haven't suffered from warped characterization...

Can you answer those Wiki entries?

While waving off anything laudable they'd done.

But hey, only I ignore points.

Well, they obviously saved the day on more than one occasion. They had a series that lasted for 75 issues.

[Metaphysician]

. . .wait, someone is trying to argue that the whole idea behind reality TV new warriors *doesn't* involve them suddenly taking a dive in intelligence and competence?? Sheesh, their first appearance involved fighting *Terrax.*

As for the larger idea of Civil War, well, I will say this one single positive thing about it: at least it doesn't irrationally distinguish between mutants and other superhumans.

Its still utterly idiotic even from an amoral pragmatic perspective, much like most of the mutant registration plots that predated it.

[Kevinroc]

. . .wait, someone is trying to argue that the whole idea behind reality TV new warriors *doesn't* involve them suddenly taking a dive in intelligence and competence?? Sheesh, their first appearance involved fighting *Terrax.*

As for the larger idea of Civil War, well, I will say this one single positive thing about it: at least it doesn't irrationally distinguish between mutants and other superhumans.

Its still utterly idiotic even from an amoral pragmatic perspective, much like most of the mutant registration plots that predated it.

A Terrax not anywhere near full power. When Terrax was at full power, he cleaned their clocks (and the NW line-up at the time was much more powerful than the one that takes on the villains in Civil War #1).

And The New Warriors have admitted that they had fallen on hard times and were reduced to the reality tv show.

I mean, by Civil War #1, the team consists of damaged goods like Night Thrasher and Namorita, goofball Speedball and complete newbie Micro.

Nova flew off to take part in Annihilation.

[Pendaran]

Because they're all pretty damned messed up. You're the Warriors expert, right? So tell me about those Wiki entries?

You mean the one for Thrasher where it cites stuff that happened and ended by issue 25 or so for this total mental breakdown and finding out about Tai and the Folding circle you speak of? He got over it. He was certainly their leader again in later issues and series, or at the very least defered to and respected. He struggled with various issues, and eventually got over them.

Have you read any of the comics, or can you just throw wiki entries at me?

Was this Terrax at his full power (where he creamed the Warriors) or the not at full power just revived Terrax?

The point of Terrax at his full power was that they were able to stand for a while against him at all, considering said Terrax wasn't getting put down by even the Fantastic Four with anti Terrax weaponry, and everyone needed a Silver Surfer bailout. Do you have an answer for the bit with the Sphinx? With Supernova?

Can you answer those Wiki entries?


The ones that largely for Dwayne drop off at issue 25 of a multi year series for his character development?

Even the person arguing against me more actively than you in this thread, who's actually, oh, read the comic, acknowledged that the Warriors as a group in fact continued to improve?

Can you answer that, as far as a comic book you don't seem to have especially read?

Well, they obviously saved the day on more than one occasion. They had a series that lasted for 75 issues.


That you seem to know nothing of.

But hey, you read wikipedia, that's just as good!

Those entries, like you, exaggerate their faults and sweepingly ignore their accomplishments.

I'm stunned you don't quote the wiki entry for speedball though..

However, the commute from Connecticut to New York City was a killer (Robbie would do things like jump in front of a speed train to get enough of a kinetic charge to bounce into the city), and was perrennially late for Night Thrasher's formal meetings. After an adventure involving his mother led to her discovering his secret identity as Speedball, and (unrelatedly) the collapse of his parents' marriage, Robbie moved permanently to NYC.

While with the Warriors, Speedball gained far greater control over his powers via a combination of experience in battle and Night Thrasher's mentorship off the battlefield. Whereas previously Speedball could only bounce in the direction he wanted, he eventually became more proficient at controlling his leaps and using his powers in various ways, such as to deliver impressive blows, and even to project a stream of kinetic energy from his bubble field at a distance.

He quickly became an annoying but loveable kid brother to the older Warriors, particularly to Nova, who thought he was a pain more often than not, but the two eventually became close friends. Speedball found another true friend in Rage after he joined the team. While the older heroes were having romances, the younger Speedball and Rage just hung out and provided moral support to each other. Later on an older and wiser Robbie began a tentative relationship with Timeslip, a girl that was briefly a member of the Warriors before losing her powers.


Oh, wait, it makes him sound competent.

Not that any of these entries are especially detailed or thorough, but your omissions are pretty telling for a guy talking about how points keep getting missed and ignored.

[Kevinroc]

You mean the one for Thrasher where it cites stuff that happened and ended by issue 25 or so for this total mental breakdown and finding out about Tai and the Folding circle you speak of? He got over it. He was certainly their leader again in later issues and series, or at the very least defered to and respected. He struggled with various issues, and eventually got over them.

Have you read any of the comics, or can you just throw wiki entries at me?

I am not that familiar with The New Warriors. Does this mean that I have no right to enjoy Civil War #1 or make comments on a group of 5th-stringers who get killed fighting the guy who inadvertently killed Captain Mar-Vell?

The point of Terrax at his full power was that they were able to stand for a while against him at all, considering said Terrax wasn't getting put down by even the Fantastic Four with anti Terrax weaponry, and everyone needed a Silver Surfer bailout. Do you have an answer for the bit with the Sphinx? With Supernova?

Spider-Man can and has stood up to The Hulk for more than a few seconds.

Being able to stand up to a guy far more powerful for awhile is noteworthy but is not the be-all, end-all on their statement.

And wow, Supernova. I'm so impressed that The New Warriors beat a guy that I had never heard of and can't seem to find any information online about. That guy? Real impressive.

So because they saved the world, that means they are super-ultra professional heroes?

You realize that Bart Allen (in his early Impulse days) saved the Earth a number of times, right? Impulse basically beat an all-powerful genie, a time-traveler who was unraveling history and other strange creatures.

I wasn't as happy with Kid Flash as anyone else but the point is that the screwball characters can save the day.

Saying "The New Warriors have saved the day" a number of times just isn't enough to convince me that these guys are extremely experienced heroes that don't make mistakes.

I think what cemented my opinion of The New Warriors was Justice's early Avengers appearances, sorry to say. Firestar talked about how Justice was much more competent in New Warriors but when he hit The Avengers, he was back to basically hero-worship for quite a bit of time.

And Speedball's appearance in Alias as essentially being comic relief.

Rage getting his butt handed to him by total newbie hero Gravity (that scene was very funny, by the way).

Let's face it, in recent years, Marvel hasn't been the most kind to The New Warriors. The team has fallen on hard times. Which, come to think, didn't they say this?

The ones that largely for Dwayne drop off at issue 25 of a multi year series for his character development?

Even the person arguing against me more actively than you in this thread, who's actually, oh, read the comic, acknowledged that the Warriors as a group in fact continued to improve?

Can you answer that, as far as a comic book you don't seem to have especially read?

Forgive me for not having an encyclopedic knowledge of characters who have had trouble supporting a title in the last 10 years.

That you seem to know nothing of.

But hey, you read wikipedia, that's just as good!

Those entries, like you, exaggerate their faults and sweepingly ignore their accomplishments.

Daredevil "got over" the death of Karen Page, and then after a few years suffered a mental breakdown and declared himself Kingpin.

Spider-Man has been angsting about the death of Gwen Stacy ever since she died.

The Hulk has had a ton of mental breakdowns over the years.

What you haven't done is convince me that The New Warriors are the most competent group of heroes in The Marvel Universe when the characters themselves had admitted they had fallen on hard times recently.

Your use of fights involving characters that weren't even members when Civil War #1 took place. Your arguements would have been stronger if you didn't keep bringing up stories that involved different NW members (along with some of the guys from CW #1).

Why don't you mention fights that The Scarlet Spider was in? Or Dagger?

[Haunt]

anyway you slice it, the demise of the New Warriors is very sad. i almost think that they would have been better breaking up and moving on right after Night Thrasher left the first time. the New Mutants had the right idea by becoming X-Force. it's all about matriculation.

[Pendaran]

I am not that familiar with The New Warriors. Does this mean that I have no right to enjoy Civil War #1 or make comments on a group of 5th-stringers who get killed fighting the guy who inadvertently killed Captain Mar-Vell?


So, after a long, long tack of arguing on whether or not the competence of the characters and their characterization in general was junked and ignored, to the point of you trying to toss around wiki entries to support your stance.. what, you're acknowledging you're wrong on that?

Forgive me for not having an encyclopedic knowledge of characters who have had trouble supporting a title in the last 10 years.

You're the one that wants to argue for a total lack of dissonance between their recent portrayals and how they progressed over their careers for a substantial period.

By the way, Thrash was leading the team as far as two years after the mess with Tai, and reached a point where the city of New York actually called on their help officially to bust Psionex, which they did.

So because they saved the world, that means they are super-ultra professional heroes?

It means they aren't incompetent glory hounding morons consumed by arrogance as far as your brilliant arguement of "Whu? Namor's cousin being arrogant and reckless?" in terms of responding to that they had competence ectomies.


What you haven't done is convince me that The New Warriors are the most competent group of heroes in The Marvel Universe when the characters themselves had admitted they had fallen on hard times recently.


And you've provided no basis for why it's not warped characterization for why they should all forget any development they had to the point of, well, their actions in Civil War.

But more specifically..

What you haven't done is convince me that The New Warriors are the most competent group of heroes in The Marvel Universe when the

You with a straight face want to talk about my ignoring points, when all you can do in "responding" to mine is exaggerate anything I say, acknowlege you don't actually know anything about the characters you tried to argue are being portrayed consistently...

Yeah, ok.

I'm so sorry my having followed a comic for years and liked the characters therein means I don't really buy it when their characterizations and talent get hurled to the wind so that they can be killed off like pathetic cannon fodder in order to make sure some crossover event can move along.

I am not that familiar with The New Warriors. Does this mean that I have no right to enjoy Civil War #1 or make comments on a group of 5th-stringers who get killed fighting the guy who inadvertently killed Captain Mar-Vell?

You mean the guy who's lost to some of the lowest rungs of the MU?

Being able to stand up to a guy far more powerful for awhile is noteworthy but is not the be-all, end-all on their statement.

It says something about their dedication, will, drive and talent, but apparently saying that now means I'm trying to say they're the most competent group in the MU.

Your use of fights involving characters that weren't even members when Civil War #1 took place. Your arguements would have been stronger if you didn't keep bringing up stories that involved different NW members (along with some of the guys from CW #1).

As opposed to you arguing about characters for whom the sum total of your knowledge consists of wikipedia?

Thrasher weren't the one commanding the team when they fought the Sphinx a second time neither, after all. No, wait..

You have arguements at all about the Warriors that are credible? You think you're credible in anything you say about characters you acknowledge you know practically nothing about the history thereof?

Why don't you mention fights that The Scarlet Spider was in? Or Dagger?

Why don't you mention the ones the city called on them for officially? Or multiple fights with the Sphinx? Oh right, because you know nothing about anything as far as this topic, but if you think you've heard of a bad showing of them somewhere, well, that's gospel.

You want to argue about the consistency of characterization and skill of characters you seem to have read practically nothing about as far as the majority of their appearances. Good work.

[AllisterH]

In all honesty, it would have made more sense for either the Young Avengers or the Runaways to screw up this badly being the "new kids/5th stringers" on the block.

However, I seriously doubt Kevinroc, Stonegold et al would support this as, let's be blunt, nobody likes seeing their favourite characters basically used worse than cannon fodder (at least the Freedom Fighters weren't presented as the losers the warriors were). It basically kills the "new warriors" as a concept but as Queseda himself has mentioned, the warriors no longer have a function in the MU (kind of like what happened to the Titans after Young Justice was introduced especially given that YJ was the team with the legacy characters).

As an aside, er, Namorita isn't anything like her cousin in personality. She was always way more laidback especially as seen in the FF.

[Pendaran]

It basically kills the "new warriors" as a concept but as Queseda himself has mentioned, the warriors no longer have a function in the MU (kind of like what happened to the Titans after Young Justice was introduced especially given that YJ was the team with the legacy characters).


Which is a point, sure, at least in as far as what they represented being done by other teams now, but being so opposed to anyone having a problem with Civil War, that despite not having particular knowledge of the characters, and then admitting to it, launching into an at length arguement about how either they're not being shown as incompetent, or, changing their mind to go, no no, they are, but that's not gutting their characterization at all, is something else entirely.

[Kevinroc]

So, after a long, long tack of arguing on whether or not the competence of the characters and their characterization in general was junked and ignored, to the point of you trying to toss around wiki entries to support your stance.. what, you're acknowledging you're wrong on that?

I'm trying to figure out just where these characters were potrayed as competently as you're trying to make them sound.

You're the one that wants to argue for a total lack of dissonance between their recent portrayals and how they progressed over their careers for a substantial period.

By the way, Thrash was leading the team as far as two years after the mess with Tai, and reached a point where the city of New York actually called on their help officially to bust Psionex, which they did.

Oh wow, Psionex. (6th stringers)

It means they aren't incompetent glory hounding morons consumed by arrogance as far as your brilliant arguement of "Whu? Namor's cousin being arrogant and reckless?" in terms of responding to that they had competence ectomies.

Maybe in the first few years of their characterization but The New Warriors fell on hard times in recent years. From Gravity defeating Rage to Justice feeling pressure after joining The Avengers to Speedball screwing up a drug bust.

On a purely characterization level, Marvel had taken The Warriors down a notch from what you seem to think they were over 10 years ago.

And you've provided no basis for why it's not warped characterization for why they should all forget any development they had to the point of, well, their actions in Civil War.

But more specifically.

Civil War did not start The New Warriors as reality tv show stars. Their 2005 mini did. That's what "warped" their characterization for Civil War. So you can bitch about Millar playing around with a concept that another writer established?

You with a straight face want to talk about my ignoring points, when all you can do in "responding" to mine is exaggerate anything I say, acknowlege you don't actually know anything about the characters you tried to argue are being portrayed consistently...

Yeah, ok.

I'm so sorry my having followed a comic for years and liked the characters therein means I don't really buy it when their characterizations and talent get hurled to the wind so that they can be killed off like pathetic cannon fodder in order to make sure some crossover event can move along.

The Freedom Fighters in Infinite Crisis were Cannon Fodder. The New Warriors are being used as the catalyst for Civil War.

There's a bit of a difference there.

You mean the guy who's lost to some of the lowest rungs of the MU?

Which was also before this rather obvious power-up he got.

It says something about their dedication, will, drive and talent, but apparently saying that now means I'm trying to say they're the most competent group in the MU.

So do they ever display the least bit of incompetence in any of these comics that you have read? Because you seem to be arguing against these characters being the least bit incompotent.

As opposed to you arguing about characters for whom the sum total of your knowledge consists of wikipedia?

Thrasher weren't the one commanding the team when they fought the Sphinx a second time neither, after all. No, wait..

You have arguements at all about the Warriors that are credible? You think you're credible in anything you say about characters you acknowledge you know practically nothing about the history thereof?

I've apparentely read more of their recent appearances than you have.

The earlier characterization doesn't automatically carry over to later writers. The Silver Surfer is a good example. The Surfer was originally potrayed as an incompotent who, even when he wanted to fight, couldn't defeat Spider-Man.

On the flip side, Spider-Man went from trashing The Surfer and The Hulk (not at the same time, mind you) to being more of a fly to them both.

Shang Chi. He used to be the undisputed heavy-weight of martial artists. He later lost to Wolverine.

You can't look at characters and their skill sets in the Rumbles board mentality. Comics have never worked like that. Marvel had made more of a very real progression of setting The New Warriors up as hitting the wall and having it rough in recent years.

Why don't you mention the ones the city called on them for officially? Or multiple fights with the Sphinx? Oh right, because you know nothing about anything as far as this topic, but if you think you've heard of a bad showing of them somewhere, well, that's gospel.

You want to argue about the consistency of characterization and skill of characters you seem to have read practically nothing about as far as the majority of their appearances. Good work.

I kinda just answered this.

When does a couple years worth of characterization mean anything? Or are you completely stuck in that Rumbles board mentality of characters always being at their peak?

[Kevinroc]

In all honesty, it would have made more sense for either the Young Avengers or the Runaways to screw up this badly being the "new kids/5th stringers" on the block.

However, I seriously doubt Kevinroc, Stonegold et al would support this as, let's be blunt, nobody likes seeing their favourite characters basically used worse than cannon fodder (at least the Freedom Fighters weren't presented as the losers the warriors were). It basically kills the "new warriors" as a concept but as Queseda himself has mentioned, the warriors no longer have a function in the MU (kind of like what happened to the Titans after Young Justice was introduced especially given that YJ was the team with the legacy characters).

As an aside, er, Namorita isn't anything like her cousin in personality. She was always way more laidback especially as seen in the FF.

The New Warriors are being used as the catalyst, not cannon fodder.

There's a difference.

It would have made sense to use The Young Avengers or The Runaways. But those teams have titles now. And The Young Avengers beat Kang (who is much higher on the villain scale than anyone I have seen Pendaran use to defend The New Warriors).

On a purely business level, it makes sense that The New Warriors be the catalyst. The characters at this point just don't sell. Three of them die to kick-start Civil War.

You can even see it here. Only a couple of people are defending The New Warriors and claiming how they got the short end of the stick.

If you can't win the "comics shouldn't tackle this kind of subject matter" debate, you'll bring in whatever you can to try and discredit the story. So let's bring up The New Warriors acting like rank amatuers.

In a few years time, it could be the deaths of The Young Avengers or The Runaways used to kick-off a crossover. Although I'd probably guess The YA have a better shot at surviving (I don't think Marvel wants to kill off two of their gay characters).

[Kevinroc]

Which is a point, sure, at least in as far as what they represented being done by other teams now, but being so opposed to anyone having a problem with Civil War, that despite not having particular knowledge of the characters, and then admitting to it, launching into an at length arguement about how either they're not being shown as incompetent, or, changing their mind to go, no no, they are, but that's not gutting their characterization at all, is something else entirely.

So you're claiming I have no right at all to comment on The New Warriors because I lack an encyclopedic knowledge of them and their adventures?

That's a horrible attitude to take regarding comic books because that kind of attitude can scare off any kind of potential new reader (I'm hardly new to reading comics).

Isn't it more of a failure on the NW part that I, who has been reading comics for over 10 years now, know very little about them and need to research them on the internet?

Your arguements have essentially boiled down to one of the problems with comic book fans.

(Oh god, I'm turning into a "this kind of attitude is destroying comics" poster.)

[Pendaran]

Oh wow, Psionex. (6th stringers)


Oh wow, the point wasn't getting respect from city officials.

Maybe in the first few years of their characterization but The New Warriors fell on hard times in recent years. From Gravity defeating Rage to Justice feeling pressure after joining The Avengers to Speedball screwing up a drug bust.


And them "falling on said hard times" for no discernable reason is part of a trend I particularly loathe called "let's ignore five+ years of character development and growth, because I want to." Your examples of "hard times" are one offs here and there compared to that stretch.

Civil War did not start The New Warriors as reality tv show stars. Their 2005 mini did. That's what "warped" their characterization for Civil War. So you can bitch about Millar playing around with a concept that another writer established?

Their mini also had that end, largely. And you know, see above point. "Why should I care how the characters were written fer years? I can find some brief and wildly out of character mini that sends them up as total goobers!"

The Freedom Fighters in Infinite Crisis were Cannon Fodder. The New Warriors are being used as the catalyst for Civil War.

There's a bit of a difference there.

Certainly. The Freedom Fighters at least didn't go down in utter and complete humiliation, especially by comparison.

So do they ever display the least bit of incompetence in any of these comics that you have read? Because you seem to be arguing against these characters being the least bit incompotent.


I'm sorry, having to work against the ignorance of someone who knows nothing about the characters, but decided to leap from saying that they weren't being incompetent dolts, then arguing that they were, but that such matches just fine seems to need their actual good points being stressed, since you're completely ignorant and dismissive of them.

I've apparentely read more of their recent appearances than you have.


I read the mini at that. I'm not the one saying a handful of appearances is good enough to claim that 5 years and change of character development wasn't simply tossed away.

The earlier characterization doesn't automatically carry over to later writers. The Silver Surfer is a good example. The Surfer was originally potrayed as an incompotent who, even when he wanted to fight, couldn't defeat Spider-Man.


Actually, the Silver Surfer of the 60s humiliatingly beat down the Hulk with basically no effort. Twice. A Hulk who otherwise could go at it with all kinds of things and opponents even back then. Said Surfer also stopped all energy on the planet, fought evenly with Loki despite being near suicidal...

You can't look at characters and their skill sets in the Rumbles board mentality. Comics have never worked like that. Marvel had made more of a very real progression of setting The New Warriors up as hitting the wall and having it rough in recent years.

You invent new ways to try and tell me how it's not valid for me to have a problem with Civil War with every post, even if it means going back on your own statements, or trying to say things about the past portrayals of characters you know nothing about.

But aw, poor me, it's that I'm from /Rumbles/, it messes up my mind! It's not that I can have a problem with 5 years of stories being thrown out the window to turn the warriors into not simply screwups, but total screwups out of character with their own personalities.

Hitting the wall and having it rough in what? A tiny handful of appearances?

i'm as impressed as you are with any time you get told anyone gave the Warriors respect.


When does a couple years worth of characterization mean anything? Or are you completely stuck in that Rumbles board mentality of characters always being at their peak?

Are you completely stuck in some recent HoM, Identity/Infinity Crisis crossover worshipping mentality that characters who develop personalities over 5 years losing those personalities at the basic drop of a hat and with little plausible justification is not remotely any kind of bad trend?

But hey, play the Rumbles card, that's way better than doing something like deciding what you're even arguing anymore.

[StoneGold]

Once again, acknowledging that they got better as the run went on matches poorly with saying it makes all kinds of sense that they were complete and total screwups in Stamford, because all of that improvement magically went away to the point of a completely and sweepingly stupid mistake such as they had never made. As a team no less.
I love how you can read that and totally miss the point. Their successes and their failures were mixed. They suceeded throughout the series. They failed throughout the series. Several of the mistakes I mentioned were from late in the series.

Hell, you want to get technical, the Warriors screw up pretty bad in the last couple issues of the first series. One of the Torpedoes is dead, all of the Warriors go powerless for a bit (Timeslip apparently permanently) and the only reason they don't is because Night Thrasher murders Volx. Ironically, to remind her that you don't have to have super powers to be a super hero. Just a knife you're willing to stick in your enemy's head. Oh, and they get Garthan Saal killed.

So that was the last issue of the first volume of New Warriors. Granted, it wasn't written by Fabian. But when your book ends with members of your cast depowered, dead, and murderers, it doesn't exactly shine well on the Warriors as being that ultimate super group.

[Pendaran]

I love how you can read that and totally miss the point. Their successes and their failures were mixed. They suceeded throughout the series. They failed throughout the series. Several of the mistakes I mentioned were from late in the series.


I love how you can read any of my posts and totally miss the point that there's nothing out there to support the level of sheer arrogant, reckless stupidity and incompetence they demonstrate in civil war, along with the personality traits that encourage and goad that stupidity. But apparently arguing this, and suggesting that in fact they did do things like learn as they went /has/ to mean I'm arguing that they were the greatest superhero team of all time, because apparently, unless you are, it's plausible for anyone to goad a moronic ambush with their camera crew brought along, near a school, in order to get good ratings. That such is in tune with their motivations, personalities, the things they cared about, and even basic competence they operated with.

[StoneGold]

I love how you can read any of my posts and totally miss the point that there's nothing out there to support the level of sheer arrogant, reckless stupidity and incompetence they demonstrate in civil war, along with the personality traits that encourage and goad that stupidity. But apparently arguing this, and suggesting that in fact they did do things like learn as they went /has/ to mean I'm arguing that they were the greatest superhero team of all time, because apparently, unless you are, it's plausible for anyone to goad a moronic ambush with their camera crew brought along, near a school, in order to get good ratings. That such is in tune with their motivations, personalities, the things they cared about, and even basic competence they operated with.
Again, Nita banged a guy and got her love interest's little brother mutliated. "Oh, but they got better!" and then I show you that they really didn't. The whole point of the New Warriors has always been that they've been flawed. Did they ever specifically fight someone and that got a school blown up? No. Have they ever made some really poor choices while fighting that have gotten the people around them killed? Yes. As late as the very last issue of their original comic. But you're going to ignore that and make more thinly veiled insults. And that's OK.

[Pendaran]

Again, Nita banged a guy and got her love interest's little brother mutliated. "Oh, but they got better!" and then I show you that they really didn't. The whole point of the New Warriors has always been that they've been flawed. Did they ever specifically fight someone and that got a school blown up? No. Have they ever made some really poor choices while fighting that have gotten the people around them killed? Yes. As late as the very last issue of their original comic. But you're going to ignore that and make more thinly veiled insults. And that's OK.

You're taking a high ground on not especially responding to things and posting insults. Really. Even just as far as this thread huh?

[Pendaran]

"Oh, but they got better!" and then I show you that they really didn't.

So yes, they did get better as the run went on.

Can you be consistent with yourself especially?

[StoneGold]

You're taking a high ground on not especially responding to things and posting insults. Really. Even just as far as this thread huh?
You're going to have to write in clear English if I'm going to properly respond to that.


OK, that wasn't the best veiled insult, but it's the truth, I really didn't understand half of that post.

[StoneGold]

Can you be consistent with yourself especially?
OK, you've got me out of context. They do get better. But they also get worse. They were more of a team. And they got their teammates depowered and killed. So a little of column A, a little of column B. But I'll own up to overreaching.

[Kevinroc]

Oh wow, the point wasn't getting respect from city officials.

This is The Marvel Universe we're talking about. The opinion of city officials and the public can be swayed at a moment's notice. Busiek's story about the cult turning the public against The Avengers ringing a bell?

And them "falling on said hard times" for no discernable reason is part of a trend I particularly loathe called "let's ignore five+ years of character development and growth, because I want to." Your examples of "hard times" are one offs here and there compared to that stretch.

At one point do these "one-offs" become their actual characterization? Marvel has actually been chipping away at The New Warriors for a few years now.

Their mini also had that end, largely. And you know, see above point. "Why should I care how the characters were written fer years? I can find some brief and wildly out of character mini that sends them up as total goobers!"

See my above point about "when these so-call one-offs become the actual characterization?"

Certainly. The Freedom Fighters at least didn't go down in utter and complete humiliation, especially by comparison.

So tell me, what did The Freedom Fighters deaths actually mean to Infinite Crisis? Their deaths didn't kick-start the storyline.

I'm sorry, having to work against the ignorance of someone who knows nothing about the characters, but decided to leap from saying that they weren't being incompetent dolts, then arguing that they were, but that such matches just fine seems to need their actual good points being stressed, since you're completely ignorant and dismissive of them.

You're basically saying I have no right to comment because I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the New Warriors.

I read the mini at that. I'm not the one saying a handful of appearances is good enough to claim that 5 years and change of character development wasn't simply tossed away.

Chipped away slowly. The Gravity mini, Alias, even Busiek's Avengers, as well as other comics such as the mini that made The NW reality tv stars.

Actually, the Silver Surfer of the 60s humiliatingly beat down the Hulk with basically no effort. Twice. A Hulk who otherwise could go at it with all kinds of things and opponents even back then. Said Surfer also stopped all energy on the planet, fought evenly with Loki despite being near suicidal...

And was hurt by a brick thrown by Karnak.

You invent new ways to try and tell me how it's not valid for me to have a problem with Civil War with every post, even if it means going back on your own statements, or trying to say things about the past portrayals of characters you know nothing about.

But aw, poor me, it's that I'm from /Rumbles/, it messes up my mind! It's not that I can have a problem with 5 years of stories being thrown out the window to turn the warriors into not simply screwups, but total screwups out of character with their own personalities.

You continue to claim "a handful of appearances isn't enough" regarding The New Warriors. But they haven't had anything beyond that because at this point in time, they haven't been able to support anything more than that for years.

If it sounds like I'm too harsh, it's because these characters have been treated in the stories in recent years as having fallen off the tracks. And you can brush it off as "a handful of appearances" but the question still has to be "at one point do these appearances actually make up their actual characterization?"

You continue to ignore that point.

Hitting the wall and having it rough in what? A tiny handful of appearances?

i'm as impressed as you are with any time you get told anyone gave the Warriors respect.

I'm impressed whenever anybody in the Marvel Universe gets any kind of respect.

Are you completely stuck in some recent HoM, Identity/Infinity Crisis crossover worshipping mentality that characters who develop personalities over 5 years losing those personalities at the basic drop of a hat and with little plausible justification is not remotely any kind of bad trend?

But hey, play the Rumbles card, that's way better than doing something like deciding what you're even arguing anymore.

First up, I recognize the nature that any comic story can be retconned at any time. I also recognize that the tools are already there to retcon Disassembled (see The Young Avengers Special and Young Avengers #11 for a very easy Disassembled "out").

Stonegold (who knows FAR more about NW continuity than I) has put forth numerous arguements about The NW not being as competent as you would have me believe.

[Pendaran]

You're going to have to write in clear English if I'm going to properly respond to that.

You answered it for me just fine chief. I should probably go read my Mary Worth and get ready to go on stage with the other Wayans brothers though.

[Pendaran]

This is The Marvel Universe we're talking about. The opinion of city officials and the public can be swayed at a moment's notice. Busiek's story about the cult turning the public against The Avengers ringing a bell?


And that totally means it's not a point that the Warriors operated well enough to get that positive opinion or anything like that, in response to the arguements you advanced of their history of low quality.

At one point do these "one-offs" become their actual characterization? Marvel has actually been chipping away at The New Warriors for a few years now.

I don't know, how long did the series that largely served to define them as a team and people go on for...

See my above point about "when these so-call one-offs become the actual characterization?"

See my above wondering of how long did the series that largely served to define them as team and people go on for..

So tell me, what did The Freedom Fighters deaths actually mean to Infinite Crisis? Their deaths didn't kick-start the storyline.


So, the Warrior's deaths aren't humiliating and of incompetents, despite you copping to that they are incompetents as far as your view, because it kick starts the storyline?

You're basically saying I have no right to comment because I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the New Warriors.

No, I'm laughing that you want to say that basically, knowing about the series in which they largely appeared and were defined in only qualifies as obsessive encyclopedic knowedge when trying to argue about what their personalities are. Yeah, knowing basically nothing about them has way more weight.

Chipped away slowly. The Gravity mini, Alias, even Busiek's Avengers, as well as other comics such as the mini that made The NW reality tv stars.

Busiek's Avengers portrayed them as a team that came on stage and were incompetent as such? The mini?

And was hurt by a brick thrown by Karnak.

And got played by Spiderman into the modern era, the point would be that your attempt to make some sweeping claim about how the Surfer was portrayed in any given era falls short.


If it sounds like I'm too harsh, it's because these characters have been treated in the stories in recent years as having fallen off the tracks. And you can brush it off as "a handful of appearances" but the question still has to be "at one point do these appearances actually make up their actual characterization?"


Damn, when they go on long enough as the places where their characterizations got explored, developed and defined did? But hey, they's exploded, so, not happening anywho. Some of them had one or two comics a pop, /at best/, of this "chipping away", but that's as much weight or more huh?

Stonegold (who knows FAR more about NW continuity than I) has put forth numerous arguements about The NW not being as competent as you would have me believe.


And also just said this


OK, you've got me out of context. They do get better. But they also get worse. They were more of a team. And they got their teammates depowered and killed. So a little of column A, a little of column B. But I'll own up to overreaching.

But expecting you guys to maintain consistency or even make up your minds beyond "must argue with guy critquing civil war and thinking characters got shafted in it!" here is something I gave up on several posts ago.



They got better. No, they got worse. No, they got better and worse, No, I'm overreaching. They were competent in civil war. No, they were incompetent but that perfectly matches.

(who knows FAR more about NW continuity than I)

anyone who's read ten issues or so of their first series would know more about NW continuity than you, by your own admission.

Stonegold's done little to show any kind of foundation for the Warriors being /that/ stupid, reckless or glory hounding arrogant, but apparently in your world, unless I do actually prove they were competent in a way that no team in the MU is, them being so, despite any competence at all, despite their typical motivations and concerns and personalities, is perfectly in characterization

[Kevinroc]

And that totally means it's not a point that the Warriors operated well enough to get that positive opinion or anything like that, in response to the arguements you advanced of their history of low quality.

I am focusing more on their recent characterization more so than the team in their heyday.

I don't know, how long did the series that largely served to define them as a team and people go on for...

So you want 75 comics of The New Warriors just screwing up left and right before you can accept that as their current characterization? (75 being as long as the original series lasted.)

Isn't that a little impractical?

See my above wondering of how long did the series that largely served to define them as team and people go on for.

75 issues is how long the original series lasted.

So, the Warrior's deaths aren't humiliating and of incompetents, despite you copping to that they are incompetents as far as your view, because it kick starts the storyline?

It doesn't make them cannon fodder. It makes them the catalyst for the story.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cannon%20fodder

n : soldiers who are regarded as expendable in the face of artillery fire

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=catalyst

Something that initiates or causes an important event to happen. Originally a term used in chemistry for the volatile (active) chemical in a formula.

The NW fight is Point A. The deaths caused by the screw up is Point B. The Super Hero Registration Act passing is Point C.

The New Warriors are not cannon fodder.

No, I'm laughing that you want to say that basically, knowing about the series in which they largely appeared and were defined in only qualifies as obsessive encyclopedic knowedge when trying to argue about what their personalities are. Yeah, knowing basically nothing about them has way more weight.

But you're just brushing over their mistakes and claiming "they got over that."

Busiek's Avengers portrayed them as a team that came on stage and were incompetent as such? The mini?

Busiek's potrayel of Justice early in his run was as a kid from The New Warriors who wasn't ready for the big time.

And got played by Spiderman into the modern era, the point would be that your attempt to make some sweeping claim about how the Surfer was portrayed in any given era falls short.

The point is more that a character can be characterized differently at any point in their history.


Damn, when they go on long enough as the places where their characterizations got explored, developed and defined did? But hey, they's exploded, so, not happening anywho.

So you would want Marvel to publish 75 comics where The New Warriors just screw-up a whole bunch? Isn't that a bit much?

And also just said this

"OK, you've got me out of context. They do get better. But they also get worse. They were more of a team. And they got their teammates depowered and killed. So a little of column A, a little of column B. But I'll own up to overreaching."

But expecting you guys to maintain consistency or even make up your minds beyond "must argue with guy critquing civil war and thinking characters got shafted in it!" here is something I gave up on several posts ago.

They got better. No, they got worse. No, they got better and worse, No, I'm overreaching. They were competent in civil war. No, they were incompetent but that perfectly matches.

You notice how you're just trying to drag down your discussion with Stonegold into a battle of semantics and not actually answering his charges of how The NW sometimes did good and sometimes screwed up royally?

anyone who's read ten issues or so of their first series would know more about NW continuity than you, by your own admission.

So? I have no right to comment on or enjoy Civil War because I didn't read a couple of New Warriors comics from well over 10 years ago?


Stonegold's done little to show any kind of foundation for the Warriors being /that/ stupid, reckless or glory hounding arrogant, but apparently in your world, unless I do actually prove they were competent in a way that no team in the MU is, them being so, despite any competence at all, despite their typical motivations and concerns and personalities, is perfectly in characterization

So his arguement about Nita is not even worth mentioning?

[Pendaran]

So you want 75 comics of The New Warriors just screwing up left and right before you can accept that as their current characterization? (75 being as long as the original series lasted.)

Isn't that a little impractical?

And taking as few as in several cases one or two comics to establish otherwise isn't a little dismissive?

But you're just brushing over their mistakes and claiming "they got over that."

Because Dwayne largely did get over his personal problems? Because, as last I checked, just before Civil War, Namorita didn't go through issues of mutation, rejection, abandonment, deformity and the like? Hell, one of her incarnations was part of the rulership of Atlantis not that far back. Trusted enough by Namor to be named part of.


Busiek's potrayel of Justice early in his run was as a kid from The New Warriors who wasn't ready for the big time.

So that's a no, the team wasn't portrayed as incompetent glory focused goobers.

Busiek's portrayal of Justice also ranks up there with Guthrie's lobotomy when he joined the X-men, as far as comments having been made on the parallells of both.

The point is more that a character can be characterized differently at any point in their history.


That's not what you actually said, but sure. Why again should you aim for self consistency.

You notice how you're just trying to drag down your discussion with Stonegold into a battle of semantics and not actually answering his charges of how The NW sometimes did good and sometimes screwed up royally?


This from the guy who can't decide what he's arguing about for any lengthy stretch.

This from the guy who doesn't debate points so much as start going on about how it's my fault for being from Rumbles.

You notice I said that even their screwups don't provide grounding for what happened to them as far as mischaracterization?

So? I have no right to comment on or enjoy Civil War because I didn't read a couple of New Warriors comics from well over 10 years ago?

No, you have no right to argue about the characterization or lack thereof of characters you know almost nothing about, despite your having done so for posts and posts and post and posts.

So you would want Marvel to publish 75 comics where The New Warriors just screw-up a whole bunch? Isn't that a bit much?

So, you only need one or two to disregard 75, when some of them are of characters that aren't even in Civil War?

I mean, you two like to babble how my arguements cite characters who aren't there when arguing for any kind of competence, but in reverse it's ok?

So his arguement about Nita is not even worth mentioning?

His arguement about Nita negates any development or good thing the Warriors did? Even he called that overreaching.

[Kevinroc]

And taking as few as in several cases one or two comics to establish otherwise isn't a little dismissive?

It's really closer to about 15 or so comics.

Busiek's early Avengers issues, the first issue of the Gravity mini, a few issues of Alias where Speedball causes trouble during a drug bust, The New Warriors reality tv show mini.

Which is about 1/5th of the characterization from their ongoing. But really, do we really need to see 75 comics of them screwing the hell up to get the idea that Marvel was chipping away at the team for a couple of years now?

Because Dwayne largely did get over his personal problems? Because, as last I checked, just before Civil War, Namorita didn't go through issues of mutation, rejection, abandonment, deformity and the like? Hell, one of her incarnations was part of the rulership of Atlantis not that far back. Trusted enough by Namor to be named part of.

Considering Namor's own troubled history, that might not be the best form of showcasing how competent they are.

So that's a no, the team wasn't portrayed as incompetent glory focused goobers.

Hey, they just got a reality TV show and are struggling in the 2nd season since Nova went off to be in Annihilation.

Busiek's portrayal of Justice also ranks up there with Guthrie's lobotomy when he joined the X-men, as far as comments having been made on the parallells of both.

Wow, nice way to just brush aside any form of characterization that doesn't work for you from a creator known for trying to hold on to previous characterization.

I'd much rather take Busiek's story over your "evidence."

That's not what you actually said, but sure. Why again should you aim for self consistency.

You're trying to argue that I am not being consistent with the idea that characterization can change?

This from the guy who can't decide what he's arguing about for any lengthy stretch.

Me = Characterization can change and Marvel has been chipping away at The New Warriors for some time. That's about the crux of my arguement.

You = Those are just a few one-offs and don't mean anything.

I just about got that right?

This from the guy who doesn't debate points so much as start going on about how it's my fault for being from Rumbles.

You have mentioned being more of a Rumbles poster than I have and you use that as a key source of your arguement. I haven't actually even mentioned that for several posts.

You notice I said that even their screwups don't provide grounding for what happened to them as far as mischaracterization?

You haven't even brought up their screw-ups. Others have. And you try to say "they got over that."

No, you have no right to argue about the characterization or lack thereof of characters you know almost nothing about, despite your having done so for posts and posts and post and posts.

So this is the crux of your arguement? I didn't read the original series so I can't say anything about The New Warriors?

How exactly are we supposed to get new fans if older fans have that attitude?

So, you only need one or two to disregard 75, when some of them are of characters that aren't even in Civil War?

Hey, you keep bringing up events and fights that involve characters who weren't involved with the fight in Civil War #1 as evidence (although you haven't done that in awhile).

I mean, you two like to babble how my arguements cite characters who aren't there when arguing for any kind of competence, but in reverse it's ok?

Okay, let's hear you bring up any time The New Warriors screwed up in the original 75 issue series? You haven't brought up any of their screw-ups and are continuing to argue for their competency. But even you have to admit that the team screwed up on more than one occasion.

His arguement about Nita negates any development or good thing the Warriors did? Even he called that overreaching.

Nothing can "negate" the good that any group of heroes did. Unless Superboy-Prime punches something. :p

[Pendaran]

It's really closer to about 15 or so comics

Oh, wow, the whole team is in each of them? And perfoming more than subpar? I totally missed that one.

Hey, they just got a reality TV show and are struggling in the 2nd season since Nova went off to be in Annihilation.

So, are you arguing that their glory focused gooberdom is spot on or what?

Wow, nice way to just brush aside any form of characterization that doesn't work for you from a creator known for trying to hold on to previous characterization.

His characterization notes in plot Justice somehow becoming less competent. When that goes from having been able to hold back for a while energies that would form Proteus, being able to unleash telekentic attacks with enough force to knock down the Sphinx as he forms a key part of a strike force taking it to her, and fighting her with full confidence and dedication, to his hesistant unskilled adventures as an Avenger, that comptence drop comes off as flat out magical.

Vance is perhaps the worst possible example to try and show him justifying a bad Warriors portrayal. The guy willingly went to the Vault when he could have escaped, served his time, earned the respect of the inmates and guards therein, and established hardened maturity that went drooling out the window.

You're trying to argue that I am not being consistent with the idea that characterization can change?


No, I'm trying to argue that like your earlier attempts to say things about Warriors past and characterization before admitting you know next to, what you did was say something completely wrong about how the Silver Surfer was portrayed in a particular era, as far as trying to make some sweeping generalization about it.

You have mentioned being more of a Rumbles poster than I have and you use that as a key source of your arguement. I haven't actually even mentioned that for several posts.


...what? You're the one who invoked the board to begin with as some kind of insult, I really just keep noting that as far as the tenor of your arguement.

Me = Characterization can change and Marvel has been chipping away at The New Warriors for some time. That's about the crux of my arguement.

You = Those are just a few one-offs and don't mean anything.

I just about got that right?

You: The Warriors were as competent as could be expected and weren't being any different than any other superhero, really, saying they were being portrayed as dumb or wrong would be like saying Spiderman shouldn't have tried to stop that kid with that gun. Wait, no, the Warriors were in fact being incompetent, and that matches just fine with their characterization.

For starters, as far as the places you've been going all over to while you keep this going.

You haven't even brought up their screw-ups. Others have. And you try to say "they got over that."

Because they generally did? And considering that your responses to their accomplishments have been "I don't care, it doesn't mean anything, I haven't heard of the guy." I like the presentation you try to give yourself of actually taking them into account.

So this is the crux of your arguement? I didn't read the original series so I can't say anything about The New Warriors?

How exactly are we supposed to get new fans if older fans have that attitude?


So, the crux of your arguement is you can claim to know when characterization matches perfectly with a character's past when you know nothing about that past?

You made claims about the consistency of their portrayals well before anyone elaborated on anything in any depth and you acknowledged knowing next to nothing. When you know nothing about the characters you make those claims about, how do you have the remote grounding to make those claims?

Okay, let's hear you bring up any time The New Warriors screwed up in the original 75 issue series? You haven't brought up any of their screw-ups and are continuing to argue for their competency. But even you have to admit that the team screwed up on more than one occasion.


Name me a team that didn't. But before you do, do please explain, as so far people keep failing to do, how their screw ups result in their transformation of motivation and talent being so spectacularly plausible, and not utterly ditching past portrayals.

What do you think that they screwed up shows? That they didn't improve over time, as per some vascillating post that goes back and forth on whether they got better or worse and whether one example overreaches to try and say it negates everything else?

Nothing can "negate" the good that any group of heroes did. Unless Superboy-Prime punches something.

So, you're arguement isn't that any time the Warriors screwed up negates any overall showing of improving, of respect, of maturing in personality, that they weren't dynamic characters who grew and developed, that they can just be pointed out by a few screw ups that justify their personalities and motivations, and indeed fairly basic competence being dismissed to them being glory hounding total screwups acting in incompetent recklessness. Despite even the context of their particular screwups. Oookay.

Are you arguing that the Warriors having their share of mistakes justifies their portrayal in civil war, or not?

Because putting it differently, even at some of their Quinjet jacking worst, they cared about people, their friends, bystanders and being heroes. Not, you know, ratings and a 40 share.

[enediol]

I was thinking, they will probably be hard pressed to find some pro-registration arguments today considering the general view towards our own government and Bush Administration. I know it has left a sour taste in my mouth and only cemented my position against registration only because the Government is behind it.

[Kevinroc]

Oh, wow, the whole team is in each of them? And perfoming more than subpar? I totally missed that one.

A member here and there (more than just one member) being potrayed as less than totally competent does tend to speak negatively for the entire team.

So, are you arguing that their glory focused gooberdom is spot on or what?

Depending on how the situation has changed, a character should be expected to go in pretty much any direction.

The Squadron Supreme mini opened up a lot of doors for different kinds of characterizations.

His characterization notes in plot Justice somehow becoming less competent. When that goes from having been able to hold back for a while energies that would form Proteus, being able to unleash telekentic attacks with enough force to knock down the Sphinx as he forms a key part of a strike force taking it to her, and fighting her with full confidence and dedication, to his hesistant unskilled adventures as an Avenger, that comptence drop comes off as flat out magical.

Vance is perhaps the worst possible example to try and show him justifying a bad Warriors portrayal. The guy willingly went to the Vault when he could have escaped, served his time, earned the respect of the inmates and guards therein, and established hardened maturity that went drooling out the window.

Yeah, see... This is what weakens your arguement. Trying to argue against Mr. Continuity King Kurt Busiek just doesn't quite hold water with a lot of people. You might as well drop that arguement and accept it.

No, I'm trying to argue that like your earlier attempts to say things about Warriors past and characterization before admitting you know next to, what you did was say something completely wrong about how the Silver Surfer was portrayed in a particular era, as far as trying to make some sweeping generalization about it.

What I was trying to get across is that characterization can change over time.

...what? You're the one who invoked the board to begin with as some kind of insult, I really just keep noting that as far as the tenor of your arguement.

I mentioned the Rumbles board a few times and you've kept harping on it over and over and over again.

You: The Warriors were as competent as could be expected and weren't being any different than any other superhero, really, saying they were being portrayed as dumb or wrong would be like saying Spiderman shouldn't have tried to stop that kid with that gun. Wait, no, the Warriors were in fact being incompetent, and that matches just fine with their characterization.

For starters, as far as the places you've been going all over to while you keep this going.

Oh wow, you're trying to use the Spider-Man/ gun arguement from well back in this thread as evidence that I am being inconsistent?

Reacing, much? But you keep trying to bring up much older posts that have nothing to do with how this thread has continued in an attempt to prove some kind of point. I shouldn't be surprised.

Because they generally did? And considering that your responses to their accomplishments have been "I don't care, it doesn't mean anything, I haven't heard of the guy." I like the presentation you try to give yourself of actually taking them into account.

As compared to your arguement that any characterization that doesn't match your idea that the characters are always 100% competent is better?

So, the crux of your arguement is you can claim to know when characterization matches perfectly with a character's past when you know nothing about that past?

You made claims about the consistency of their portrayals well before anyone elaborated on anything in any depth and you acknowledged knowing next to nothing. When you know nothing about the characters you make those claims about, how do you have the remote grounding to make those claims?

It's not like I picked up comics for the first time yesterday and have never even heard of The New Warriors.

I have admitted to not being the most familiar with them but I am not blind to the idea that

Name me a team that didn't. But before you do, do please explain, as so far people keep failing to do, how their screw ups result in their transformation of motivation and talent being so spectacularly plausible, and not utterly ditching past portrayals.

What do you think that they screwed up shows? That they didn't improve over time, as per some vascillating post that goes back and forth on whether they got better or worse and whether one example overreaches to try and say it negates everything else?

Even the most experienced characters screw up. Especially if they had recently fallen on hard times.

This is The Marvel Universe we're talking about. Captain America has screwed up on more than one occasion and people died as a result. Does that make Cap a villain?

So, you're arguement isn't that any time the Warriors screwed up negates any overall showing of improving, of respect, of maturing in personality, that they weren't dynamic characters who grew and developed, that they can just be pointed out by a few screw ups that justify their personalities and motivations, and indeed fairly basic competence being dismissed to them being glory hounding total screwups acting in incompetent recklessness. Despite even the context of their particular screwups. Oookay.

Are you arguing that the Warriors having their share of mistakes justifies their portrayal in civil war, or not?

Because putting it differently, even at some of their Quinjet jacking worst, they cared about people, their friends, bystanders and being heroes. Not, you know, ratings and a 40 share.

You're making it sound like The New Warriors went up to the school and started punching kids heads off because it would make for "exciting TV."

Okay, make up your mind regarding Nitro. Because I have seen you and several others argue about what a pathetic loser he is. And Nita treating him as a pathetic loser shows what, exactly? Is Nitro a loser or not?

As has been pointed out over and over, The New Warriors still took down the other villains with relative ease despite there being forced to charge.

You're making it sound like The New Warriors purposefully are acting like villains here. Wow, you're overreaching with that.

[Pendaran]

Reacing, much? But you keep trying to bring up much older posts that have nothing to do with how this thread has continued in an attempt to prove some kind of point. I shouldn't be surprised.

That you can't be consistent with the multitude of arguements you try and throw at a wall to hope one sticks as far as the evidence you cite? You didn't reverse your stance on what you claimed about the Warrior's conduct in Civil War?

Yeah, see... This is what weakens your arguement. Trying to argue against Mr. Continuity King Kurt Busiek just doesn't quite hold water with a lot of people. You might as well drop that arguement and accept it.

So, Vance did not go to jail and earn the respect of those therein. He didn't do things like get included in Guardsman training sessions. Right. I'll get some scans up I guess.

As compared to your arguement that any characterization that doesn't match your idea that the characters are always 100% competent is better?

Yeah, I haven't at any point said that it's egregious because the characters are making a mistake on a stupid and irresponsible level that they never have, for motivations that they have never had as far as consistent characterization, it's that I need the New Warriors to be 100% perfect.

Even the most experienced characters screw up. Especially if they had recently fallen on hard times.

This is The Marvel Universe we're talking about. Captain America has screwed up on more than one occasion and people died as a result. Does that make Cap a villain?

So, if Captain America fell on hard times, became driven by a need for ratings and glory, goaded incompetent ambushes near schools full of children, and got exploded, children dying and the like, you'd be all cool with that, as far as how Captain America had been previously shown?

You're making it sound like The New Warriors went up to the school and started punching kids heads off because it would make for "exciting TV."

Okay, make up your mind regarding Nitro. Because I have seen you and several others argue about what a pathetic loser he is. And Nita treating him as a pathetic loser shows what, exactly? Is Nitro a loser or not?

As has been pointed out over and over, The New Warriors still took down the other villains with relative ease despite there being forced to charge.

You're making it sound like The New Warriors purposefully are acting like villains here. Wow, you're overreaching with that.

So, if I can follow, we started with that the Warriors were not being incompetent, to no, they were being incompetent, to now that I'm trying to say they're acting like villains.

Last I checked I said that they were being portrayed as reckless and arrogant goobers that got people killed in record numbers because of their incompetence, and that such was a sharp divorce from their personalities and portrayals, but apparently you need to reach to invent a completely new arguement to have. Apparently, if I don't think they're being portrayed consistently, I'm saying they're being portrayed as villains.

Just to address specifically:

As has been pointed out over and over, The New Warriors still took down the other villains with relative ease despite there being forced to charge.

So now, despite you arguing at length that they were being portrayed as incompetent screwups, just that such has no real dissonance, you've moved back to arguing that they weren't.

Are you just incapable of any kind of remote consistency with your own posts? Do you even remember what past ones are? Does it just not matter to you what you try to cite as proof of anything, even if it contradicts what you previously tried to say?

How much weight do you think your points have when you can't even stay consistent from moment to moment with how you want to say they're being expressed or demonstrated in comic? When you seem incapable of making up your mind in any way so long as you can find some new way to drag out something else to disagree with. It's touched that much of a nerve with you as far as my dislike of Civil War?

Can you remotely make up your mind on the Warriors in Civil War? Are they competent, incompetent, doing well, doing badly, concerned about ratings and glory, being arrogant, not being arrogant, or what? So far you don't seem to be able to do anything but go back on yourself over and over and over.

Oh but hey, some completely out of nowhere babble about making my mind up about Nitro, which as non sequiturs go.. where does that even come from from what you were responding to? That's not hypocrisy when you can't even pick out what you want to say about the Warrior's performance seemingly from one group of posts to the next.

[Kevinroc]

That you can't be consistent with the multitude of arguements you try and throw at a wall to hope one sticks as far as the evidence you cite? You didn't reverse your stance on what you claimed about the Warrior's conduct in Civil War?

You want me to put in my stance on The New Warrior's conduct in Civil War? It may seem confusing but it's simple and I'll lay it down here.

The New Warriors, who had fallen on hard times, attempted to take on a group of super villains. Over the course of the battle, Nita showed a great degree of arrogance when dealing with Nitro and thus screwed up royally.

The end. Is that not simple?

So, Vance did not go to jail and earn the respect of those therein. He didn't do things like get included in Guardsman training sessions. Right. I'll get some scans up I guess.

Where did Busiek say that Justice's history didn't happen?

Yeah, I haven't at any point said that it's egregious because the characters are making a mistake on a stupid and irresponsible level that they never have, for motivations that they have never had as far as consistent characterization, it's that I need the New Warriors to be 100% perfect.

Well, any time I have brought up a potrayel of a New Warrior screwing up in some form, you brush it aside as bad characterization. I'm really trying to figure out if you're being sarcastic or not.

So, if Captain America fell on hard times, became driven by a need for ratings and glory, goaded incompetent ambushes near schools full of children, and got exploded, children dying and the like, you'd be all cool with that, as far as how Captain America had been previously shown?

You want Cap to go through that on top of all this Winter Soldier stuff and leading the anti-registration side in Civil War? Give Cap a break. (That was a joke, by the way.)

(And for the record, Cap has made huge mistakes before. Such as when he screwed up royally when dealing with The Triune Understanding and it took him a long time to get around the problems that they caused.)

So, if I can follow, we started with that the Warriors were not being incompetent, to no, they were being incompetent, to now that I'm trying to say they're acting like villains.

Last I checked I said that they were being portrayed as reckless and arrogant goobers that got people killed in record numbers because of their incompetence, and that such was a sharp divorce from their personalities and portrayals, but apparently you need to reach to invent a completely new arguement to have. Apparently, if I don't think they're being portrayed consistently, I'm saying they're being portrayed as villains.

I'm making up new arguements? You're the one who grabs quotes of mine from older posts in this thread and tries to use them out of context.

And the way you are classifying the Warriors, you are basically calling them villains.

Just to address specifically:

"As has been pointed out over and over, The New Warriors still took down the other villains with relative ease despite there being forced to charge."

So now, despite you arguing at length that they were being portrayed as incompetent screwups, just that such has no real dissonance, you've moved back to arguing that they weren't.

Are you just incapable of any kind of remote consistency with your own posts? Do you even remember what past ones are? Does it just not matter to you what you try to cite as proof of anything, even if it contradicts what you previously tried to say?

How much weight do you think your points have when you can't even stay consistent from moment to moment with how you want to say they're being expressed or demonstrated in comic? When you seem incapable of making up your mind in any way so long as you can find some new way to drag out something else to disagree with. It's touched that much of a nerve with you as far as my dislike of Civil War?

Can you remotely make up your mind on the Warriors in Civil War? Are they competent, incompetent, doing well, doing badly, concerned about ratings and glory, being arrogant, not being arrogant, or what? So far you don't seem to be able to do anything but go back on yourself over and over and over.

Oh but hey, some completely out of nowhere babble about making my mind up about Nitro, which as non sequiturs go.. where does that even come from from what you were responding to? That's not hypocrisy when you can't even pick out what you want to say about the Warrior's performance seemingly from one group of posts to the next.

I laid out my position earlier and if you want me to reiterate my position, I will.

"The New Warriors, who had fallen on hard times, attempted to take on a group of super villains. Over the course of the battle, Nita showed a great degree of arrogance when dealing with Nitro and thus screwed up royally."

There ya go.

[Pendaran]

I laid out my position earlier and if you want me to reiterate my position, I will.

Are you arguing that you don't have multiple posts that say completely different things now?

The end. Is that not simple?

Sure.. if you hadn't been contradicting yourself over and over throughout this thread.

You want Cap to go through that on top of all this Winter Soldier stuff and leading the anti-registration side in Civil War? Give Cap a break. (That was a joke, by the way.)

(And for the record, Cap has made huge mistakes before. Such as when he screwed up royally when dealing with The Triune Understanding and it took him a long time to get around the problems that they caused.)

Wow, the man whining about posts and points being ignored can't directly answer a question he gets asked. Is it that double standards you hold are ok if the other person is ragging on a comic that you like?

Not that I'm expecting you to manage a direct answer to any of these, but let me add on.

Say the Runaways or Young Avengers fell on hard times, became focused on ratings and glory, and goaded a botched fight near a schoolyard in which the end result was them and scores of children dying, would you be fine with that as far as their portrayal?

Did you answer the Captain America one yet?

I'm making up new arguements? You're the one who grabs quotes of mine from older posts in this thread and tries to use them out of context.

It's my fault you're incapable of of being consistent?

"The New Warriors, who had fallen on hard times, attempted to take on a group of super villains. Over the course of the battle, Nita showed a great degree of arrogance when dealing with Nitro and thus screwed up royally."


So any tangents you went on trying to defend them as competent there, then different tangents where you said that they were incompetent but it matched just fine, were just all window dressing around that and not you being incapable of consistency or just stringing together coherent patterns? Right.

[Kevinroc]

Are you arguing that you don't have multiple posts that say completely different things now?

I'm arguing that while my posts may seem a bit difficult to comprehend, my position is pretty consistant.

Sure.. if you hadn't been contradicting yourself over and over throughout this thread.

My position fits pretty well together once you get down to it.

Wow, the man whining about posts and points being ignored can't directly answer a question he gets asked. Is it that double standards you hold are ok if the other person is ragging on a comic that you like?

Not that I'm expecting you to manage a direct answer to any of these, but let me add on.

Say the Runaways or Young Avengers fell on hard times, became focused on ratings and glory, and goaded a botched fight near a schoolyard in which the end result was them and scores of children dying, would you be fine with that as far as their portrayal?

Did you answer the Captain America one yet?

So you're basically putting Captain America, The Young Avengers and The Runaways in the position that The New Warriors were in just before Civil War.

Okay, let me put it like this.

Marvel's never killing of Captain America. So there's no danger of him actually biting the bullet. Trying to make that arguement about Cap is a moot point. And it really isn't the same thing anyways unless you wanna say The Avengers were in The New Warriors place.

If The Young Avengers were to do it, you know that they would also try to spotlight homosexual relationships and try to cast a more positive light on them. But I honestly wouldn't have that much of a problem.

The Runaways, I could actually see this going down with them. If they, you know, weren't wanted criminals already at this point. I wouldn't actually be all that upset. The only thing that would annoy me for awhile is if Molly wasn't the survivor.

These are comics we're talking about and I try to keep an open mind regarding stories being told.

It's my fault you're incapable of of being consistent?

Saying The New Warriors screwed up is not being consistent?

So any tangents you went on trying to defend them as competent there, then different tangents where you said that they were incompetent but it matched just fine, were just all window dressing around that and not you being incapable of consistency or just stringing together coherent patterns? Right.

Getting back to the reality tv stars bit, recall that Young Justice were actually starring in a reality tv show just before that series ended. So the concept wasn't exactly "original" when The New Warriors did it.

Now, my main point really hasn't changed.

I'm looking at Civil War from Marvel's build-up to the story. Looking at how the story has been structured up to this point, I can respect what Marvel is trying to do.

Your arguement now has just totally been reduced to "The New Warriors as we saw in their first series were totally competent and anything that came later that cast any of their members in a more negative life was just a one-shot out of character potrayel and I'd need 75 issues of them being screw-ups to satisfy me."

The reason the New Warriors are getting killed off is simple. These characters just didn't sell. And thanks to The Young Avengers and The Runaways, they kinda became pointless. Marvel had their optimistic legacy characters in the Young Avengers and had their cynical teen characters in The Runaways.

And it can suck when your favorite character(s) die(s) for the sake of the crossover. There are still a number of angry Barry Allen fans out there.

You're just pissed off that characters you like are getting killed for a crossover you aren't particularly interested in.

A DC character I liked just died in Infinite Crisis and I'm not the least bit upset about it. Just calm down a little, alright?

I don't care about The New Warriors but I can honestly say that if The Runaways or The Young Avengers were put in a similar position (they didn't sell for years, Marvel tried the reality tv thing and that failed, and Marvel killed off a few of their members in a crossover), I wouln't be upset.

I just take a step back and look at the big picture.

[Pendaran]

I'm arguing that while my posts may seem a bit difficult to comprehend, my position is pretty consistant.


Which makes statements that cycle over in contradicting each other as viewpoints a-ok.

My position fits pretty well together once you get down to it.


And ignore where you're contradicting yourself, because it's totally irrelevant to what you want to get across or the quality of arguement you make in doing so.

Marvel's never killing of Captain America. So there's no danger of him actually biting the bullet. Trying to make that arguement about Cap is a moot point. And it really isn't the same thing anyways unless you wanna say The Avengers were in The New Warriors place.

So.. only you get to bring up Captain America when trying to make points about this arguement, because you brought him up in clearly the way we are allowed to, because any other way is not allowed.

See point re: double standards.

And thanks for confirming you are apparently not capable of answering the question directly, despite going on about how you feel I'm not addressing points.

I asked how you would react, your response comes down to "I'm not going to answer your question."


Saying The New Warriors screwed up is not being consistent?

Wow, and we're back. You've gone back and forth on saying if the New Warriors especially screwed up, and how bad they screwed up, if they did. But, we should ignore all that, that's just you being complicated.

Getting back to the reality tv stars bit, recall that Young Justice were actually starring in a reality tv show just before that series ended. So the concept wasn't exactly "original" when The New Warriors did it

What does this have to do with anything? Much like your Nitro non sequitur, are you even capable of keeping track of what's being discussed from one post to the next? Are you just tossing out whatever random points enter your head now?

Now, my main point really hasn't changed.

And routine contradiction, apparently just for the sake thereof, says nothing about how well you can express that point remotely, nor your aggrieved stance of your arguements being ignored compared to the apparently thorough, consistent and fully responsive manner in which you've been discussing things.

Your arguement now has just totally been reduced to "The New Warriors as we saw in their first series were totally competent and anything that came later that cast any of their members in a more negative life was just a one-shot out of character potrayel and I'd need 75 issues of them being screw-ups to satisfy me."

And your arguement is what "please ignore me rambling on and on about characters I know nothing about, in various attempts to justify portrayals I can't seem to ever make up my mind on what those portrayals are, but when I tell you I have, this time I mean it for sure!"

A DC character I liked just died in Infinite Crisis and I'm not the least bit upset about it. Just calm down a little, alright?

You're seriously, after all the insults, rambling, mockery, condescension and the like on your end, going to take the stance of no, no, it's the other guy that's emotionally invested, on a thread this long. That's some impressive gall.

I don't care about The New Warriors but I can honestly say that if The Runaways or The Young Avengers were put in a similar position (they didn't sell for years, Marvel tried the reality tv thing and that failed, and Marvel killed off a few of their members in a crossover), I wouln't be upset.

I just take a step back and look at the big picture.

While making no sense, and apparently stating you don't have to. No, I'm sorry, it's just that you're being "complicated".

[Kevinroc]

Which makes statements that cycle over in contradicting each other as viewpoints a-ok.



And ignore where you're contradicting yourself, because it's totally irrelevant to what you want to get across or the quality of arguement you make in doing so.



So.. only you get to bring up Captain America when trying to make points about this arguement, because you brought him up in clearly the way we are allowed to, because any other way is not allowed.

See point re: double standards.

And thanks for confirming you are apparently not capable of answering the question directly, despite going on about how you feel I'm not addressing points.

I asked how you would react, your response comes down to "I'm not going to answer your question."




Wow, and we're back. You've gone back and forth on saying if the New Warriors especially screwed up, and how bad they screwed up, if they did. But, we should ignore all that, that's just you being complicated.



What does this have to do with anything? Much like your Nitro non sequitur, are you even capable of keeping track of what's being discussed from one post to the next? Are you just tossing out whatever random points enter your head now?



And routine contradiction, apparently just for the sake thereof, says nothing about how well you can express that point remotely, nor your aggrieved stance of your arguements being ignored compared to the apparently thorough, consistent and fully responsive manner in which you've been discussing things.



And your arguement is what "please ignore me rambling on and on about characters I know nothing about, in various attempts to justify portrayals I can't seem to ever make up my mind on what those portrayals are, but when I tell you I have, this time I mean it for sure!"



You're seriously, after all the insults, rambling, mockery, condescension and the like on your end, going to take the stance of no, no, it's the other guy that's emotionally invested, on a thread this long. That's some impressive gall.



While making no sense, and apparently stating you don't have to. No, I'm sorry, it's just that you're being "complicated".

Wow, so projecting. Okay, let me do this more simply (since I did actually answer your NW-esque scenario question if it were to involve The YA or Runaways).

1: I find it funny when you accuse me of not being able of this whole "non sequitur" thing in my arguement when you have harped on things from previous posts that I didn't even mention in whatever post I had quoted. (How long did you harp on that Rumbles comment?)

2: You are so projecting. And your pathetic attempts to deny it actually made me laugh.

3: You accuse me of being insulting? 3 words, buddy: Pot, kettle, black.

4: I've said it before, I'll say it again. The New Warriors screwed up. You keep arguing about how, based on their first series, they should never have screwed up like this and then proceeded to basically say that any comic that showed a member of the NW screwing up in between the end of that first series and Civil War is just to be brushed aside.

[Pendaran]

Wow, so projecting. Okay, let me do this more simply (since I did actually answer your NW-esque scenario question if it were to involve The YA or Runaways).

1: I find it funny when you accuse me of not being able of this whole "non sequitur" thing in my arguement when you have harped on things from previous posts that I didn't even mention in whatever post I had quoted. (How long did you harp on that Rumbles comment?)

2: You are so projecting. And your pathetic attempts to deny it actually made me laugh.

3: You accuse me of being insulting? 3 words, buddy: Pot, kettle, black.

4: I've said it before, I'll say it again. The New Warriors screwed up. You keep arguing about how, based on their first series, they should never have screwed up like this and then proceeded to basically say that any comic that showed a member of the NW screwing up in between the end of that first series and Civil War is just to be brushed aside.

1: So.. you didn't tell me that my entire problem was that I was stuck in some kind of Rumbles mindset? You brought it up, things in response to that, are, you know, things in response to that. Whereas something that comes completely out of nowhere and has no remote connection to anything being said as far as what this arguement revolves around, is a non sequitur. Seriously, Young Justice? The hell?

2: Well, it's good that you've stopped trying to affect that self righteous veneer you alternate between posts, like you've alternated between claims.

3: I ever said I wasn't being insulting? I just marvel at attempts on your part to cast yourself as otherwise, and be all "oh, please calm down", despite your own statements, but we've established you have massive consistency issues on several levels anyway.

4: Said what before? That the Warriors didn't especially screw up? That they were doing well? That there wasn't much else they could do? That they were doing badly? That they were competent? Incompetent? Focused on glory? Not focused on glory? You've practically gone through em all.

And still no answer on the Captain America thing..

I mean this thread is what, 10 pages now, and we're down to me calling you a hypocrite and you calling me pathetic and talking about how you're laughing? That's definitely the sign of a calm, open minded tolerant guy engaging in simple intellectual discourse.

I suppose I should add specifically

they should never have screwed up like this and then proceeded to basically say that any comic that showed a member of the NW screwing up in between the end of that first series and Civil War is just to be brushed aside

I could have sworn I said at various points that I said that none of their screw ups provided a remote grounding for the one in Civil War unless you gut their characterization and personalities, but then again, do you really want to claim by this point that you're paying much attention to what I posted?

I could have also sworn I pointed out you're ludicrously warping what I say to claim that I'm making some statement of that the Warriors never screwed up anywhere, and are the most competent team on the planet, but, well, see above.

[Kevinroc]

1: So.. you didn't tell me that my entire problem was that I was stuck in some kind of Rumbles mindset? You brought it up, things in response to that, are, you know, things in response to that. Whereas something that comes completely out of nowhere and has no remote connection to anything being said as far as what this arguement revolves around, is a non sequitur. Seriously, Young Justice? The hell?

2: Well, it's good that you've stopped trying to affect that self righteous veneer you alternate between posts, like you've alternated between claims.

3: I ever said I wasn't being insulting? I just marvel at attempts on your part to cast yourself as otherwise, and be all "oh, please calm down", despite your own statements, but we've established you have massive consistency issues on several levels anyway.

4: Said what before? That the Warriors didn't especially screw up? That they were doing well? That there wasn't much else they could do? That they were doing badly? That they were competent? Incompetent? Focused on glory? Not focused on glory? You've practically gone through em all.

And still no answer on the Captain America thing..

I mean this thread is what, 10 pages now, and we're down to me calling you a hypocrite and you calling me pathetic and talking about how you're laughing? That's definitely the sign of a calm, open minded tolerant guy engaging in simple intellectual discourse.


I suppose I should add specifically

Quote:
they should never have screwed up like this and then proceeded to basically say that any comic that showed a member of the NW screwing up in between the end of that first series and Civil War is just to be brushed aside

I could have sworn I said at various points that I said that none of their screw ups provided a remote grounding for the one in Civil War unless you gut their characterization and personalities, but then again, do you really want to claim by this point that you're paying much attention to what I posted?

I could have also sworn I pointed out you're ludicrously warping what I say to claim that I'm making some statement of that the Warriors never screwed up anywhere, and are the most competent team on the planet, but, well, see above.

1: I digressed back to the "reality tv arguement" to bring up that Young Justice did it too. I shoulda brought it up sooner but that had slipped my mind during those earlier posts.

And when I brought up The Rumbles mindset, you kept harping on it. And if the Cap story were enjoyable to me, I wouldn't care.

2: So what exactly are you claiming I alternated with my posts? Where did I not say "The New Warriors were arrogent and/ or screwed up?" whenever asked on that subject?

3: Well, with your little "Chuckg" mini-me rant going on with your posts, what exactly do you want me to say here?

4: You're the one who keeps bringing up the glory-hounding thing. Over and over and over again.

I really just focused on arrogant and/ or screwed up.

"Experienced" people can and have been arrogant and screwed things the hell up. What do you call Iraq? (And before you jump on me, I am not acquiting The New Warriors with The Bush Administration. But your seeming denile that people who have some kind of experience in their field don't get arrogant and screw things the hell up is pretty false.)

Although, hey, maybe you should call Mark Millar during his Fanboy Radio appearance and yell and scream or ask him about that? (Millar is currently scheduled to appear on Fanboy Radio on 5/14.)

So if you wanna take this up with Millar, you've got your opportunity.

[Pendaran]

1: I digressed back to the "reality tv arguement" to bring up that Young Justice did it too. I shoulda brought it up sooner but that had slipped my mind during those earlier posts.

And it has what to do with anything being discussed? I think it's also slipped your mind as to what the hell it has to do with anything we've been going back and forth on.

And when I brought up The Rumbles mindset, you kept harping on it.

You bring it up in reference to some kind of defense of your non sequiturs, at this point I have to wonder.. what does it even have to do with that?

2: So what exactly are you claiming I alternated with my posts? Where did I not say "The New Warriors were arrogent and/ or screwed up?" whenever asked on that subject?

Wow.. I kind of want to just let this one mostly stand by itself for the "you're ignoring posts!" thing.

3: Well, with your little "Chuckg" mini-me rant going on with your posts, what exactly do you want me to say here?

See, there we go, isn't it much more honest when you stop trying to pretend you lack smug contempt for myself and my views here?

Isn't that just liberating?

4: You're the one who keeps bringing up the glory-hounding thing. Over and over and over again.


Well you know, your contradictory posts are "difficult" to navigate after all.

"Experienced" people can and have been arrogant and screwed things the hell up. What do you call Iraq? (And before you jump on me, I am not acquiting The New Warriors with The Bush Administration. But your seeming denile that people who have some kind of experience in their field don't get arrogant and screw things the hell up is pretty false.)

So, you are agreeing they're experienced now? I really need a scorecard..

Although, hey, maybe you should call Mark Millar during his Fanboy Radio appearance and yell and scream or ask him about that? (Millar is currently scheduled to appear on Fanboy Radio on 5/14.)

So if you wanna take this up with Millar, you've got your oppurtunity.

I like being described with the whole yelling and screaming thing as far as my implied rationality, it goes well with the "ChuckG mini me" thing as far as how frothing you come off by comparison.

You win for economy though, you got to insult two, two, two people at once! It being the classiest thing of all time to do so to someone who can't possibly respond, while talking about how I should go address my complaints and insults to the source.

[Kevinroc]

And it has what to do with anything being discussed? I think it's also slipped your mind as to what the hell it has to do with anything we've been going back and forth on.



You bring it up in reference to some kind of defense of your non sequiturs, at this point I have to wonder.. what does it even have to do with that?



Wow.. I kind of want to just let this one mostly stand by itself for the "you're ignoring posts!" thing.



See, there we go, isn't it much more honest when you stop trying to pretend you lack smug contempt for myself and my views here?

Isn't that just liberating?



Well you know, your contradictory posts are "difficult" to navigate after all.



So, you are agreeing they're experienced now? I really need a scorecard..



I like being described with the whole yelling and screaming thing as far as my implied rationality, it goes well with the "ChuckG mini me" thing as far as how frothing you come off by comparison.

You win for economy though, you got to insult two, two, two people at once! It being the classiest thing of all time to do so to someone who can't possibly respond, while talking about how I should go address my complaints and insults to the source.

1: Where did I say The New Warriors didn't have experience?

2: Where did I scream and yell? I think you're just using the rather static nature of the internet to make that kind of judgment. I can make a judgment call and your arguement style does indeed remind me of Chuckg's.

3: So now you have no real response to "experienced" people can screw up royally, eh?

Well, I guess this arguement is over then.

[Pendaran]

I think I missed the response to this, so I'll repost:

You win for economy though, you got to insult two, two, two people at once! It being the classiest thing of all time to do so to someone who can't possibly respond, while talking about how I should go address my complaints and insults to the source.

As for the rest:

2: Where did I scream and yell? I think you're just using the rather static nature of the internet to make that kind of judgment. I can make a judgment call and your arguement style does indeed remind me of Chuckg's.


Where did I scream and yell? I mean, hey, the internet does seem to be this static place that one can enter type into. Are your judgement calls just more valid?

And are you really trying to again present yourself as rational when your comment was "mini me ChuckG rant"? Your conduct's immaculate, right? The pathetic and the laughing bits and so forth.

1: Where did I say The New Warriors didn't have experience?

So.. that wasn't you crowing on Stonegold showing how "professional" they were, when responding to another poster who was going into how the Warriors had never been experienced, competent or professional. I mean nevermind that his last word on the matter basically admitted to overreaching.

Well, I guess this arguement is over then.

The part of reading things what made sense and didn't amount to vitriol certainly ended a while back. Oh but wait, you're trying to recast that as rational judgement calls made on similarities.

[Kevinroc]

I think I missed the response to this, so I'll repost:

You win for economy though, you got to insult two, two, two people at once! It being the classiest thing of all time to do so to someone who can't possibly respond, while talking about how I should go address my complaints and insults to the source.

As for the rest:



Where did I scream and yell? I mean, hey, the internet does seem to be this static place that one can enter type into. Are your judgement calls just more valid?

And are you really trying to again present yourself as rational when your comment was "mini me ChuckG rant"? Your conduct's immaculate, right? The pathetic and the laughing bits and so forth.



So.. that wasn't you crowing on Stonegold showing how "professional" they were, when responding to another poster who was going into how the Warriors had never been experienced, competent or professional. I mean nevermind that his last word on the matter basically admitted to overreaching.



The part of reading things what made sense and didn't amount to vitriol certainly ended a while back. Oh but wait, you're trying to recast that as rational judgement calls made on similarities.

1: You've once ignored the "experienced people screw up" charge again. Nicely done.

2: My own posts calling you "Chuckg mini-me" are hardly screaming and yelling. Insulting? Yeah. But not screaming and yelling. More like snark. My comments are more of a cynical nature.

3: Just because they have behaved unprofessionally doesn't mean I am arguing that they have no experience at this hero thing.

4: I'm throwing it back to you to answer my charge about experienced people screwing up. You've managed to avoid that ever since I brought it up.

[Pendaran]

4: I'm throwing it back to you to answer my charge about experienced people screwing up. You've managed to avoid that ever since I brought it up.

I'm throwing it back to you where the level of screw up and motivations behind it of the Warriors has actual support in how they've been portrayed. You've managed to avoid that for ages and ages now as far as any kind of substantial response that doesn't basically warp my statements.

2: My own posts calling you "Chuckg mini-me" are hardly screaming and yelling. Insulting? Yeah. But not screaming and yelling. More like snark. My comments are more of a cynical nature.


So, it's ok for you to be insulting because it's cynical snark? Gotcha. Are you sure you want to abandon the "they're just just judgement calls based on similarities" thing? That almost by comparison made more sense.

3: Just because they have behaved unprofessionally doesn't mean I am arguing that they have no experience at this hero thing.

At least we've come full circle about your bit earlier of wanting to tell me that I'm dragging arguements with others down to semantics. "And Stonegold showed you how 'professional' they are" is definitely you being as charitable as you can to the experience and professionality the warriors might have picked up along the way. Similar also the responses to any accomplishments or respect of theirs with basically "so?". Definitely comes off like you believe that.

And again, you toss off an insult to someone who can't respond to you while telling me to seek full response for my gripes or insults. What does that make you?

Huh, 150 posts. Didn't you consider this arguement to be over?

[Kevinroc]

I'm throwing it back to you where the level of screw up and motivations behind it of the Warriors has actual support in how they've been portrayed. You've managed to avoid that for ages and ages now as far as any kind of substantial response that doesn't basically warp my statements.



So, it's ok for you to be insulting because it's cynical snark? Gotcha. Are you sure you want to abandon the "they're just just judgement calls based on similarities" thing? That almost by comparison made more sense.



At least we've come full circle about your bit earlier of wanting to tell me that I'm dragging arguements with others down to semantics. "And Stonegold showed you how 'professional' they are" is definitely you being as charitable as you can to the experience and professionality the warriors might have picked up along the way. Similar also the responses to any accomplishments or respect of theirs with basically "so?". Definitely comes off like you believe that.

And again, you toss off an insult to someone who can't respond to you while telling me to seek full response for my gripes or insults. What does that make you?

Huh, 150 posts. Didn't you consider this arguement to be over?

1: It is cynical snark. I'm not yelling or shouting or anything. Maybe I shoulda put in a few emoticons.

2: What are you claiming I am?

3: It basically is since you still haven't actually answered my charge. But I'm basically thinking you're squirming here and I'm a bit terrible to admit but I kinda enjoy the thought.

I never claimed I was a saint.

4: The idea behind The New Warriors screwing up is that people do screw up. I'm gonna use The Bush Administration as an example. Ignoring their actual politics, look at their resumes.

Bush himself was in his 2nd term as Texas governer when he became The President.

Cheney was in Washington during The Nixon Administration (not very high on the ladder but he was there). He worked under Ford and was elected into Congress in 1978. Where he stayed until 1989.

Yadda, yadda...

You know, these people did have Washington experience. And they still screwed things up royally. And not just in Iraq.

People who have experience in their particular field can be arrogant and screw up royally.

[Pendaran]

3: The idea behind The New Warriors screwing up is that people do screw up. I'm gonna use The Bush Administration as an example. Ignoring their actual politics, look at their resumes.

The idea behind the New Warriors screwing up is that their concern for ratings drove them to pick a fight who's conditions were set up stupidly in advance, from an ambush where one of the people skulking about is the clearly spec ops trained camera man, to said ambush with camera ninja being near a school.

You seem to want to use arrogance as a cipher for motivation warp.

[Pendaran]

3: It basically is since you still haven't actually answered my charge. But I'm basically thinking you're squirming here and I'm a bit terrible to admit but I kinda enjoy the thought.

Wow, I missed that. I mean hey, I personally just thought you're bearing a grudge over some comic you like the idea of being griped on, and can't as related string together consistent points in the name of bearing that grudge, but that is some impressively ugly and vindictive animosity.

Seriously touched a nerve that badly? Wow.

Gosh buddy, calm down.

[Kevinroc]

The idea behind the New Warriors screwing up is that their concern for ratings drove them to pick a fight who's conditions were set up stupidly in advance, from an ambush where one of the people skulking about is the clearly spec ops trained camera man, to said ambush with camera ninja being near a school.

You seem to want to use arrogance as a cipher for motivation warp.

I calls it likes I sees it. But that still doesn't actually answer my charge about people screwing up.

Wow, I missed that. I mean hey, I personally just thought you're bearing a grudge over some comic you like the idea of being griped on, and can't as related string together consistent points in the name of bearing that grudge, but that is some impressively ugly and vindictive animosity.

Seriously touched a nerve that badly? Wow.

Gosh buddy, calm down.

:p

I should note that I am a rather strange individual.

[Pendaran]

I calls it likes I sees it. But that still doesn't actually answer my charge about people screwing up.

And you don't answer mine about the level thereof, and the reasons provided not being supportable as far as those characters, so it seems to go quite well together.

The characters had to be written with completely different motivations and to a certain extent personalities for that screw up to occur, but apparently that's meaningless.


I should note that I am a rather strange individual.

There's nothing strange about ugly and vindictive animosity, it's just sort of cute that all it takes is an arguement about comic books to get it going.

Does also make the whole "calm down please" thing by this point sheer hilarity.

[Kevinroc]

And you don't answer mine about the level thereof, and the reasons provided not being supportable as far as those characters, so it seems to go quite well together.

What part of "the real experienced people make huge mistakes" do you not understand? Civil War is a political story and not exactly subtle.

There's nothing strange about ugly and vindictive animosity, it's just sort of cute that all it takes is an arguement about comic books to get it going.

Does also make the whole "calm down please" thing by this point sheer hilarity.

Who are you saying is aninomous? I've been to Comic-Con and freely try to meet up with other posters.

How can I be aninomous when I use my first name, as well as my middle initial and the first two letters of my last name as my username? That's pretty reaching.

Hhmm? I haven't mentioned any kind of emotional state for some time.

[Pendaran]

What part of "the real experienced people make huge mistakes" do you not understand? Civil War is a political story and not exactly subtle.

What part of the Warriors had their motivations warped to make it so can you possibly still not be understanding? If you need to change what it motivating a character in a way there isn't much basis for, in order to faciliate an epically stupid screw up born of, and influenced by those motivations, saying they could have just screwed up that way normally doesn't really fly with me.

Who are you saying is aninomous? I've been to Comic-Con and freely try to meet up with other posters.

How can I be aninomous when I use my first name, as well as my middle initial and the first two letters of my last name as my username? That's pretty reaching.

Hhmm? I haven't mentioned any kind of emotional state for some time.

I'd like to believe the first bit is just some surreal, and ultimately dumb attempt at humour, but the overall quality of your posts make that /so/ hard.

And emotional state? No mention?

3: It basically is since you still haven't actually answered my charge. But I'm basically thinking you're squirming here and I'm a bit terrible to admit but I kinda enjoy the thought.

Are we really back again to where you can't keep track of your posts from one to the next?

[ColdFury]

What part of the Warriors had their motivations warped to make it so can you possibly still not be understanding? If you need to change what it motivating a character in a way there isn't much basis for, in order to faciliate an epically stupid screw up born of, and influenced by those motivations, saying they could have just screwed up that way normally doesn't really fly with me.



I'd like to believe the first bit is just some surreal, and ultimately dumb attempt at humour, but the overall quality of your posts make that /so/ hard.

And emotional state? No mention?



Are we really back again to where you can't keep track of your posts from one to the next?

Get a room, guys, geeze.

From what I've seen of the preview pages, the New Warriors were there staking out the house and confirming the reports that the villains were in actual hiding at that location.

They were in costume, yes, but as this was establishing shots for their reality show, I can see why. Don't want their identities on national television.

And yes, a stake out with costumes and cameras isn't the best idea ever, but I would hardly state that the New Warriors were gunning for a fight. Frankly, if you heard there was a half dozen violent murderous criminals chilling ACROSS THE STREET from an elementary school, would you be cool with the police chilling until after school hours?

They were seen, so it was either let the murderous, dangerous, escaped felons go or try to stop them. They chose to try to stop them in the noble pursuit of heroes everywhere. Was it the wrong call? If that was an easy mark to make we wouldn't be having an event called Civil War.

Personally, I thought the New Warriors were a bit over-confident, which seems in tune with their last mini-series and what i read of vol1 of NW. They were awesome in the field, even Microbe managed to score a takedown.

And seriously, stop trying to get the last word in. You're totally overinflating this thread to huge "I don't want to read this mess" levels. (this is a general you, not a specific you) I will demonstrate how simple this is by not refuting any counter arguments to this post. :D

[Will.S]

And seriously, stop trying to get the last word in. You're totally overinflating this thread to huge "I don't want to read this mess" levels. (this is a general you, not a specific you) I will demonstrate how simple this is by not refuting any counter arguments to this post. :D
Seriously.

[Kevinroc]

And seriously, stop trying to get the last word in. You're totally overinflating this thread to huge "I don't want to read this mess" levels. (this is a general you, not a specific you) I will demonstrate how simple this is by not refuting any counter arguments to this post. :D

Hey, I went to bed. I really did stop caring (and Howard Stern was on).

I'd say it was Pendaran that had the problem with anyone of any kind of experience ever making a mistake (and he rushed back to this tired old NW arguement and never did refute what I brought up regarding real world people screwing up being a basis for the story).

But man, you did show a lot of personal high ground. Good show, sir. :)

[Pendaran]

Hey, I went to bed. I really did stop caring (and Howard Stern was on).

I'd say it was Pendaran that had the problem with anyone of any kind of experience ever making a mistake (and he rushed back to this tired old NW arguement and never did refute what I brought up regarding real world people screwing up being a basis for the story).

But man, you did show a lot of personal high ground. Good show, sir. :)

You do know it doesn't really work to respond to someone telling you along with me that you need to get the last word in by protesting that you don't really care, but continuing to try and knock my arguement, view and points anyway, let alone trying to claim that you don't really care after this thread hit eleven pages, but the whole dueling need to feel superior thing became clear a whole ton of posts ago. Still, does kind of put the lie to you going "no, no, it's the other guy!", and that you can leave well enough alone.

I mean, I can certainly admit I still have some inclination to stay on the merry go round just to see what hilarity you might say next, and don't really feel like leaving off with no response to a post that manages to actually contradict itself when posted "I don't care! but here's why Pendaran was still wrong!", but you know, I'm not the guy trying to rationalize my conduct as "judgement calls", nor talk about getting some kind of thrill from the thought of some odd notion that I'm squirming, but deny having said anything about emotional states.

[Kevinroc]

You do know it doesn't really work to respond to someone telling you along with me that you need to get the last word in by protesting that you don't really care, but continuing to try and knock my arguement, view and points anyway, let alone trying to claim that you don't really care after this thread hit eleven pages, but the whole dueling need to feel superior thing became clear a whole ton of posts ago. Still, does kind of put the lie to you going "no, no, it's the other guy!", and that you can leave well enough alone.

I mean, I can certainly admit I still have some inclination to stay on the merry go round just to see what hilarity you might say next, and don't really feel like leaving off with no response to a post that manages to actually contradict itself when posted "I don't care! but here's why Pendaran was still wrong!", but you know, I'm not the guy trying to rationalize my conduct as "judgement calls", nor talk about getting some kind of thrill from the thought of some odd notion that I'm squirming, but deny having said anything about emotional states.

And I think this officially means that all your actual arguements regarding Civil War have tanked so your only recourse is to insult me left and right.

Why hasn't this thread been locked yet?

[Jake V]

And I think this officially means that all your actual arguements regarding Civil War have tanked so your only recourse is to insult me left and right.

Why hasn't this thread been locked yet?
Because it's more entertaining than anything on tv.

[Pendaran]

And I think this officially means that all your actual arguements regarding Civil War have tanked so your only recourse is to insult me left and right

When you never actually responded to what I said with anything beyond "that's not a response to me!" and can't even seem to conceptualize being able to, it really only "officially" means that.

When your last few posts can't even broach the concept of responding to points posted in response to you.. what really are you doing other than tossing insults?

When your last few posts deny statements made even in the posts above them, how doesn't that mean your arguements tanked a while back, and your only recourse is to ignore responses made to you, while contradicting yourself further still in some effort to try and claim anything the other person says is wrong, no matter what it is?

You reached a point of posting to respond to a guy who said he's not going to respond to tell him he's wrong about you having a need to get in the last word because really, you don't care.

Why hasn't this thread been locked yet?

Because it's funny?

And for not caring and not needing the last word, that was an impressively fast response.

[Syzygy]

Well, think of this form the governments perspective. You have (finally) an army of superheroes that are forced to work for your government agency (S.H.I.E.L.D.) so think of the power they would wield!

Just as a fictional example:

"Iran is part of an axis of wickedness! They are developing nuclear technology. Therefore we have initiated a series of surgical strikes using our new Super Force wing of S.H.I.E.L.D.! Our top psychics have definitive evidence of Iran not just developing an energy program. Our Super Force agents have started there strikes as of 1 hour ago. God Bless America"

Also, if you thought government wiretapping was bad, how about brain tapping? How about political espionage using Psychics? How about a new style of warfare where someone like Professor X could pinpoint every insurgent leader in Iraq, the Hulk could dig them out, and then Wolverine could apprehend or terminate them?

As for supervillains, surely you can see that the government would rather control the superheroes against the supervillains rather than have autonomous heroes who answer to no one, right?

This is exactly why I'm against registration. And this is exactly what the government would want done.

And after the heroes did this, in would come Roxxon Oil and the Brand Corporation, happy as larks, grabbing up the place's natural resources and getting fat on reconstruction contracts.

It's the Hellfire Club's wet dream. An army of superheroes to advance and defend their financial interests.

Peace,
Syzygy