Underachievers

[Shellhead]

I believe that people who read comics often have related interests like role-playing games, sci-fi/fantasy books and/or movies, anime, etc. A lot of my friends are like that. And a lot of my friends are also underachievers. Is there a direct connection?

Growing up, my closest friends and I all coasted through school, getting B's with minimal effort but not working for the A's. We did what was necessary to get by, and spent lots of time on gaming and reading comics and things like that. We all went to college, but some took a really long time to graduate or otherwise finish with school. And most of us have enjoyed only modest success, if that, in our careers.

I moved to Minnesota in the early 90's, and eventually made lots of similar friends. And they are even more extreme underachievers. Seriously, about 25% of my Minnesota friends don't even own a car. And nearly every single one under the age of 30 hasn't finished college yet.

So, is there a direct correlation between lack of success and people who enjoy entertainment with super, fantastic or futuristic elements? Or is it just a big coincidence that I am personally acquainted with more than 100 imaginative underachievers?

[spaz]

Shellhead, I definitely see some sort of connection with your insight. I firmly believe too much interest in comics/gaming/fantasy can stunt a person's achievements in life, whether it's career or social wise.

I think it's sort of an anti-social environment that's really frowned upon by the other public. It's not a pleasant situation telling a girl you are just dating that you collect and read comic books, especially if you are 25+.

Yeah I would consider myself an underacheiver, my head always stuck up in the clouds with comics and movies. Although I enjoyed it I actually wish I never got hooked on comics.

I had a lot of social fun when I stopped collecting comics and watching anime. Then one day I went to the library, read some Wizards, started taking out graphic novels at the library, and now I'm sort of hooked again. Part of me regrets going back on that path again. Anime, comics, movies......social crutch for the loner. Should have tried harder in school.

[Michael P]

Would you call Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Neil Gaiman, Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, Arthur Clarke, Stephen Hawking, Jack Kirby, Gene Roddenberry, George Lucas, Joss Whedon, Kurt Busiek, Mark Waid, Gail Simone, Terry Pratchett, Poul Anderson, Stephen King, Julius Schwartz, Ursula LeGuin, Anne McCaffrey, Marv Wolfman, George Perez, Harlan Ellison, Peter David, John Byrne, Bill Willingham, Brian Vaughan, Ray Bradbury, Michael Chabon, Kurt Vonnegut, Neal Adams, Jim Steranko, Robert Kirkman, Chris Claremont, Matt Groening, Colleen Doran, Jeff Smith, George Martin, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkein, Judy-Lynn Del Rey, Maggie Thompson, Denny O'Neill, Carmine Infantino, Brian Bolland, Alex Ross, David Weber, Harry Turtledove, and Cat Yronwode underachievers?

[The Humanist Hero]

I firmly believe too much interest in comics/gaming/fantasy can stunt a person's achievements in life, whether it's career or social wise.I think it's sort of an anti-social environment that's really frowned upon by the other public. It's not a pleasant situation telling a girl you are just dating that you collect and read comic books, especially if you are 25+.

Care to explain how my reading comics is going to stunt my career? Are they going to rescind my admission to law school when they find out? Will they prohibit me from taking the bar?

Don't project details about your own life onto the rest of us, or at least me. I have no problem enjoying, even immersing myself, in comics/superheros/fantasy while simultaneously earning two degrees (so far), reading considerable amounts of literature/philosophy, teaching college writing for two years, and having normal relationships with women/men, both platonic and romantic.

And I could care less who "frowns" upon the fact that I read comics. I "frown" upon a lot of things that other people do in the sense that I wouldn't be caught dead doing it, yet it doesn't matter-- and shouldn't matter-- to anyone if other people "frown" on the stuff that they enjoy doing.

[Winslow]

I think everyone thinks they underachieve.

I saw an interview with Jack Nicklaus and he thought he under-achieved on the course - 18 majors - yeah right . . .

[bfrank]

Shellhead, I definitely see some sort of connection with your insight. I firmly believe too much interest in comics/gaming/fantasy can stunt a person's achievements in life, whether it's career or social wise.

I think it's sort of an anti-social environment that's really frowned upon by the other public. It's not a pleasant situation telling a girl you are just dating that you collect and read comic books, especially if you are 25+.

Yeah I would consider myself an underacheiver, my head always stuck up in the clouds with comics and movies. Although I enjoyed it I actually wish I never got hooked on comics.

I had a lot of social fun when I stopped collecting comics and watching anime. Then one day I went to the library, read some Wizards, started taking out graphic novels at the library, and now I'm sort of hooked again. Part of me regrets going back on that path again. Anime, comics, movies......social crutch for the loner. Should have tried harder in school.

Let's be real for a minute, you are blaming comics for choosing to be lazy....this is your choice, you made it, comics are not at fault.....

And what is with you wimpy people that can not tell women that you read comic books....I can not wrap my head around that one....grow a spine already.....

[BlairH]

That's it! Based on this anecdotal evidence, I am giving up comics for at least a year! From now on, it'll be nought but good, wholesome books such as "The Law of Property in Scotland" and "Blackstone's Statutes on COMPANY LAW!"

Seriously, I've noticed my standards slip slightly ever since I got into this whole comic business, so I'm restricting all comic book reading to the Summer holidays and similar lesurely time periods.

[BlairH]

Let's be real for a minute, you are blaming comics for choosing to be lazy....this is your choice, you made it, comics are not at fault.....

And what is with you wimpy people that can not tell women that you read comic books....I can not wrap my head around that one....grow a spine already.....

Shut it John Locke! It's the comics and you know it!

[BoosterBronze]

Would you call Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Neil Gaiman, Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, Arthur Clarke, Stephen Hawking, Jack Kirby, Gene Roddenberry, George Lucas, Joss Whedon, Kurt Busiek, Mark Waid, Gail Simone, Terry Pratchett, Poul Anderson, Stephen King, Julius Schwartz, Ursula LeGuin, Anne McCaffrey, Marv Wolfman, George Perez, Harlan Ellison, Peter David, John Byrne, Bill Willingham, Brian Vaughan, Ray Bradbury, Michael Chabon, Kurt Vonnegut, Neal Adams, Jim Steranko, Robert Kirkman, Chris Claremont, Matt Groening, Colleen Doran, Jeff Smith, George Martin, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkein, Judy-Lynn Del Rey, Maggie Thompson, Denny O'Neill, Carmine Infantino, Brian Bolland, Alex Ross, David Weber, Harry Turtledove, and Cat Yronwode underachievers?

Defensive much?

[bfrank]

Shut it John Locke! It's the comics and you know it!

Are you calling me old and bald!

[BoosterBronze]

So, is there a direct correlation between lack of success and people who enjoy entertainment with super, fantastic or futuristic elements? Or is it just a big coincidence that I am personally acquainted with more than 100 imaginative underachievers?

I think a lot of people who dig this kind of stuff tend to be of above average intelligence.

I also think that a lot of people of above average intelligence tend to be what you're defining as 'underachievers.'

I don't think comics/underacheivement is cause/effect, but I think they share a demographic of smarter than your average bear kind of folks.

[Shellhead]

I think a lot of people who dig this kind of stuff tend to be of above average intelligence.

I also think that a lot of people of above average intelligence tend to be what you're defining as 'underachievers.'

I don't think comics/underacheivement is cause/effect, but I think they share a demographic of smarter than your average bear kind of folks.

I should have emphasized this more in my initial post... I believe that people who read comics and enjoy gaming, science-fiction, etc. are more intelligent and more imaginative than the average person. Maybe that's part of why I see underachievers where others don't, because I expect that unusually imaginative and intelligent people should accomplish more than normal people.

[DrewTheXenocide]

Are you calling me old and bald!
Which John Locke was he talking about? The Tabula Rasa one or the "Don't tell me what I can't do" one?

Anyway, too much involvement in anything, no scratch that, too much of anything is no good, but you can't blame 'em on comics.

Am I an under acheiver? Perhaps. Could I do better, with a little more effort? Hell yes. The problem is, with the exception of two classes, Latin and Creative Writing, I have no intrinsic motivation to do better. So, what do I do besides study for that other stuff? Comics, novels, games, movies, etc. But it's all my fault. What do I do to rectify this? Similart to what BlairH does, but on a shorter scale. Whenever I got loads to do, I just go to Barnes and Noble or something, and do my work there, sans internet, games, and one floor away from comics.

[spaz]

To everyone out there who read my post, I am not Implying I am 100 percent correct. Far from it. It is one man's opinion. I just sort of agree with Shellhead's insight with too much fantasy=possible underachievement. That's all!

There are a few athletes that read comics, soldiers, and even stars. One comes to mind is Nick Cage. I'm sure there are professionals who do read comics. But i'm just generalizing it can be a bad habit and people can get too wrapped into. And unfortunately it's still frowned upon by older generation, especially women. When I mention I like to read and then they ask what authors.......well I always get a sneer. I hate that.

[The Humanist Hero]

When I mention I like to read and then they ask what authors.......well I always get a sneer. I hate that.
Then maybe it's your problem for not reading anything but comics. It has nothing to do with comics themselves.

[Weapon Ick]

You have to consider what it takes to achieve success in this society. Look at the type of behavior that this society rewards. Look at the people who get ahead in this world. What kind of people are they? Do you want to be like that?

Personally, I dislike this society and the kind of people who rise to the top. I mean, arguably, G. W. Bush has achieved the most because he is the most powerful person in the nation/world. I would rather be an underachiever than be like him.

I'll sit around, get high, play video games and read comics while everyone else tries to "achieve" something in life. The way I see it, I've achieved everything I wanted to anyway. To me, the qualities required to achieve anything are disgusting.

[Cephus]

I don't think any of those things, in and of themselves, make you an underachiever. I went through school reading comics, playing RPGs, etc. and I graduated with a 3.96 and was class valedictorian. I think the problem is an unhealthy obsession with those things (or anything, really). Most of the people who spend all their time reading comics or playing games or sitting on the net or whatever are going to do poorly in school because they're not spending the time they need on their education.

Obsession is *ALWAYS* bad IMO. It's the people who can't open their mouths without talking about comics and gaming and fantasy, etc. that have problems. The people who have a healthy interest in these things, among many other interests, don't seem to fail to function in society.

[spaz]

Humanist........i just don't like to read books, fiction or non-fiction. I can't help it. Books just don't do it for me. Used to read a lot when I was in elementary and high school. but that's it. it's always been comics. Nope I'm not in debt, have a job that's little above average where I live, and definitely not a go-getter. Is it because of comics/fantasy/movies/anime? No, but I wish I never spent all that time reading/watching. Should have been more in moderation.

[Dennis K]

Would you call Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Neil Gaiman, Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, Arthur Clarke, Stephen Hawking, Jack Kirby, Gene Roddenberry, George Lucas, Joss Whedon, Kurt Busiek, Mark Waid, Gail Simone, Terry Pratchett, Poul Anderson, Stephen King, Julius Schwartz, Ursula LeGuin, Anne McCaffrey, Marv Wolfman, George Perez, Harlan Ellison, Peter David, John Byrne, Bill Willingham, Brian Vaughan, Ray Bradbury, Michael Chabon, Kurt Vonnegut, Neal Adams, Jim Steranko, Robert Kirkman, Chris Claremont, Matt Groening, Colleen Doran, Jeff Smith, George Martin, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkein, Judy-Lynn Del Rey, Maggie Thompson, Denny O'Neill, Carmine Infantino, Brian Bolland, Alex Ross, David Weber, Harry Turtledove, and Cat Yronwode underachievers?


Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, No, No, No, Yes, Yes, Yes, No, Yes, No, No, Yes, Yes, No, Yes, Yes, No, Yes, Yes, Yes, No, No, Yes, No, Yes, No, and the rest, maybe.

[Squirrel]

From what I've seen, I think it's this: these 'geeky' types who collect manga and play D&D are very intellingent and creative. They are problem-solvers. They have a strong moral code. Well, maybe not, heh. But they see super-heroes making the world a better place and they KNOW that there's no way for them to do the same. No matter how smart you are, fixing this planet is just hopeless. So they get lost in their fantasy worlds and stop trying to do anything in this flawed, pointless piece of shit we call reality.

God, now I hate everything. I'm going to go get drunk now.

[Cei-U!]

I'm just envious that you guys had friends who were into comics. Nobody I knew in junior high or high school was into comics and only two or three guys in college. It was a lonely hobby. Fortunately I had (and have) other interests.

Cei-U!
I summon the shortage!

[Sanagi]

I always kinda figured it was because I played so many video games, and video games are like tiny universes where everything is designed to be cool and satisfying to me, that I tend to accomplish as little as I can get away with in the world of responsible grown-ups, where everything is designed to be boring and to satisfy management types.

[TheDarkestHorse]

I think anyone who reads ANYTHING is more intelligent than the average person I meet every day. I work in a video store, and half the adult customers who come in can't even read the back of a DVD to see what it's about, and if they do, they still don't seem to comprehend what they've read. "What is this movie about? I don't like all that violent, nasty horror stuff." "Well, it's called 'Ladies In Lavender' and it's got two elderly women smiling and dancing in a green field on the cover. Looks shifty, try 'I Spit On Your Grave' instead." Maybe I should go on the out-of-context-rant thread. Don't get me started on the modern human's complete inability to use alphabetical order. "No, it's here, in B section!" "BEES?!!?"

But more on topic, when I consider the pros and cons of being a fan or collector, I think of my Dad. He'll watch an occassional action flick or work on an engine, but he doesn't show any real passion toward anything. I think that has a lot to do with why he rebounds constantly from one destructive relationship to another, sprinkling drugs, drinks, and affairs in along the way. I enjoy having a social life, but if the best person I could find to spend Saturday night with was one of my Dad's women, I'd rather spend it reading backissues of Deathlok.

[tricksterpup]

I should have emphasized this more in my initial post... I believe that people who read comics and enjoy gaming, science-fiction, etc. are more intelligent and more imaginative than the average person. Maybe that's part of why I see underachievers where others don't, because I expect that unusually imaginative and intelligent people should accomplish more than normal people.
I have to back Shell on this, this group does fit his description. Most do not own a car and are fairly under achievers.

[Wesley Dodds]

My answer: yes, kind of, but you're a little off track.

I remember something Stephen King wrote about fantasy in Danse Macabre. High fantasy is about people who get great power and then lose it, like Lord of the Rings. But pulp fantasy like the John Carter stories is about people who get great power and... keep it. They just fight battles and have adventures but stay on top.

That's what superhero comics are, even the ones like Fantastic Four science fiction trappings. Most anime "sci fi" (like Gundam) is really just fantasy. So are the Lensman novels. The aesthetic comes from science fiction but the story structure is fantasy. Real science fiction is questioning, critical and deconstructive. It tries to produce realistic answers to "what if?" While in a recent issue of Ultimate Fantastic Four the Invisible Woman collapsed someone's "left synapse".

Obviously, the kind of people who this kind of pulp fantasy would appeal to is someone who's powerless. Every comic shop is a showcase of personality disorders -- I suspect superhero readers are people who somehow feel impotent in their personal lives and are therefore drawn to stories where the hero has all this extraordinary power. That is, the superhero is a metaphor for adulthood as it looks to someone who's powerless. That's the essence of Superman and Captain Marvel: it's how kids see being a grown-up.

The other major varient of the superhero book is the angst book. As the readership of comics has matured the content of comics has changed to reflect the abrasive teenage years. It's painful adolescence drawn by Rob Liefeld. The Punisher, Wolverine, Watchmen, etc.

Also, comics are an extremely solitary activity, like novel-reading. Actually, I think the immersion in comics is much stronger than it is in novels. So it's natural that comics would appeal to people who are fairly good at being solitary. That's not everyone.

I also wonder if comic readers might not have concentration problems -- comics are a very quick read, ideal for people with short attention spans.

[K'Nort]

When people think overachiever, or even Achiever, they think of the schmoozy flashy BMOC type, and those folks are too dependent on the opinions of others to ever dare read comics.

[Gilda Dent]

Education wise, I've always been very successful. I have a decent, if not impressive job/career. Emily is a sci-fi nerd, and is extraordinarily successful in her field, chemistry. My brother is a comics/sci-fi nerd and very successful.

I'm not the most skilled socially, to say the least, but Emily and Jiro both do very well in that.

Based on my anecdotal experience, nerds tend to be high achievers.

I do think limiting yourself solely to comics might be a bit limiting intellectually, just as limiting yourself to a single genre, such as science fiction might also be.

Gilda

[Michael P]

Defensive much?
No, just making a rhetorical point.

Also, Bill Gates.