How many Could actully kill him?

[Devil_LeonX]

Aside from Doomsday and those beings that are basicly God like, who could kill superman in an all out batttle and how?thanks in advance anyone

[Lorendiac]

Aside from Doomsday and those beings that are basicly God like, who could kill superman in an all out batttle and how?thanks in advance anyone

His "invulnerability" is supposed to pretty much fail whenever someone clobbers him with heavy-duty magic. So an awful lot of "supernatural" people could theoretically kill him with high-powered magic spells, or magic swords that could probably cut right through his skin, or similar approaches. I'm thinking of wizards and witches, devils and demons, dragons and mythological deities, that sort of thing. I'm afraid I've lost track of just how many such characters are currently alive in the DCU. (Weren't a bunch of supernatural types supposed to be killed off in Bill Willingham's "Day of Vengeance" miniseries last year? I can't remember exactly who died, though.)

[rickfury188]

Can Zuarial kill him with his sword?

[Lorendiac]

Can Zuarial kill him with his sword?

I'm guessing the answer is "Yes, in theory," for the reasons I mentioned above.

But that's in theory. In practice, getting Superman to simply stand still while Zauriel was trying to chop him into little pieces with that sword might be easier said than done. Superman would still have his superspeed, his superstrength, his heat vision, and so forth, to help him either fly away very very fast, or else forcefully defend himself :)

[Rylon]

Lois could, but only if she played dirty.

[Devil_LeonX]

yea I know people with magic powers could possibily do it, what I mean those that are as strong as he is or almost such as Mongul or those that are even stronger

[UniMind]

Near anybody who remembers the uber powers that trump his on nearly every level. Meaning, as long as the S shield allows them to remain competent. Which nullifies most of his rogue gallery. And for the record, Asmodel and Darkseid aren't superman villains. Darkseid is a New Gods villain, and Asmodel is a JLA, DCU villain.

[Rylon]

Asmodel and Darkseid aren't superman villains. Darkseid is a New Gods villain, and Asmodel is a JLA, DCU villain.Really? Cuz' Darkseid made his first apperiance in Superman's Pal: Jimmy Olson. That puts him in the Superman Rogues Gallery to me.

[dancj]

Can Zuarial kill him with his sword?

That depends. If Zauriel's sword cuts because it's really sharp - even if it's really sharp because of magic then quite likely not. If Zauriel's sword has some kind of cutting spell/charm then it probably would cut him

[Sean Whitmore]

yea I know people with magic powers could possibily do it, what I mean those that are as strong as he is or almost such as Mongul or those that are even stronger


I don't think there ARE very many villains who are stronger than Supes anymore. There certainly used to be; Doomsday, Lobo, Mammoth, Zod (the human one) and Massacre all pounded him pretty bad during their first fights. But Superman keeps getting stronger, and once he gets their number, he's annihilated them all in the rematch.

Gog (Chuck Austen version, not The Kingdom one) seems to be the last villain who really stomped Superman, but his powers were so vague and his origin so ill-defined that I couldn't really understand why.

And of course, kryptonite villains go without saying. Metallo and Bloodsport both came really close to icing Superman the first time they fought.


SEAN

[20yrslater]

That depends. If Zauriel's sword cuts because it's really sharp - even if it's really sharp because of magic then quite likely not. If Zauriel's sword has some kind of cutting spell/charm then it probably would cut him
Except Diana's magic-based tiara cut his throat during Sacrifice, and her sword was shown to draw blood when she went to Kill Mongul in IC#1 and he went to stop her.

As far as I know neitehr of those have a magic cutting charm or spell.

[DracoMalfoy]

That depends. If Zauriel's sword cuts because it's really sharp - even if it's really sharp because of magic then quite likely not. If Zauriel's sword has some kind of cutting spell/charm then it probably would cut him

Zauriel's "sword" isn't "sharp". It's made of Divine Fire from Heaven. It can sever anything in the Book (Creation) and it can even dispell shadows.

Zauriels flaming "sword" would most assuredly not only sever him but also burn him alive.

[LibrarianThorne]

Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
The Flash
Zoom (Hunter Zolomon)
Doomsday
Darkseid
Mongul
Kalibak (theoretically)
Orion
Izaya, Highfather of New Genesis
Bizarro
Mr. Mxyzptlk
Zatanna
Doctor Fate
Phantom Stranger
the Spectre
Green Lantern (Alan Scott) (theoretically)
Ion
Metamorpho, the Element Man

Those are just off the top of my head. There are undoubtedly more that I'm forgetting.

[Sean Whitmore]

Kalibak (theoretically)


Even theoretically it's a stretch. Is there anyone in the DCU who HASN'T kicked Kalibak's ass?

I think I could take him.


SEAN

[PatrickG]

Superman's invulnerability does not fail in the presence of magic.

If you turned lead into gold, you couldn't clobber Superman with it.

A magic punch doesn't KO Superman unless it's enchanted to have equal force to a nuclear blast... Or specially enchanted to knockout Superman.

But a guy who is enchanted to have the strength of a hundred men couldn't damage Superman.

However, a spell that turns people into bunnies will turn Superman into a bunny.

His vulnerability to magic just means he has no special resistance against it.

[kane]

A magic punch doesn't KO Superman unless it's enchanted to have equal force to a nuclear blast... Or specially enchanted to knockout Superman.


Cap Marvel koed Superman once and said it was also because of supermans weakness to magic.

[Sean Whitmore]

The extent of Superman's vulnerability to magic rises and falls with each writer, I expect.


SEAN

[Stanlos]

Aside from Doomsday and those beings that are basicly God like, who could kill superman in an all out batttle and how?thanks in advance anyone

Well, Godlike beings in the DCU are kind of abundant.

But skipping those like Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel, there are many mystical forces and alien races. For example, the Sangttee/Kryll could deal with most anyone. The forgotten Hsan Natal. The alien intergalactic empire that was a rival to Almerac's power (Decine hailed from there--they were cyborg-y and spider-like) had tech that could do it with the element of surprise.

The girl with the guns (Crimson Avenger?) could with the elment of surprise. Superman normally does that thing where bullets bounce off his chest. These would not.

[Damo]

If we're keeping his superspeed in mind, and limiting it to POST CRISIS characters, it should be a very short list.


The Spectre.
Maybe Darkseid. I believe he was once depicted as being capable of super-speed. Probably Highfather if this is the case.
Bizarro
Mr. Mxyzptlk, but he'd get in trouble afterwards, because killing isn't mischief.
Phantom Stranger
Zod
Captain Marvel.
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Krypto. Maybe.
And I'd say the Queen of Fables, if she wasn't so messed in the head. She reduced him to human-level strength with a wave of her hand and made him fight Kryptonian fairy tale monsters. Groovy. And she can apparently only be hurt by the rules of fables, so just moving in with superspeed and hitting her probably wouldn't do much. .

Aside from that, maybe some Kryptonite users, but that would probably be pushing it. Metallo doesn't seem to do much with his power except walk into lead shielding, and the Kryptonite Man's too much of an unknown quality so far. The world class mages like Fate and Zatana have some hope, but only if they can cast a spell before they get clocked by a superfast fist.

And, of course, Chuck Norris.

[filthysize]

Uh, everyone's forgetting the obvious: Batman.

[DracoMalfoy]

Superman's invulnerability does not fail in the presence of magic.

If you turned lead into gold, you couldn't clobber Superman with it.

A magic punch doesn't KO Superman unless it's enchanted to have equal force to a nuclear blast... Or specially enchanted to knockout Superman.

But a guy who is enchanted to have the strength of a hundred men couldn't damage Superman.

However, a spell that turns people into bunnies will turn Superman into a bunny.

His vulnerability to magic just means he has no special resistance against it.

No, his vulnerability to magic means he's just has vulnerable to magic as anybody else. The magic completely bypasses his bio-electric aura do to its chaotic nature. Over the years he's grown a tad more resistant to it though.

[ShaggyB]

Except Diana's magic-based tiara cut his throat during Sacrifice, and her sword was shown to draw blood when she went to Kill Mongul in IC#1 and he went to stop her.

As far as I know neitehr of those have a magic cutting charm or spell.

um its not that its enchanted, its that its origin is magical, and therefore does not play by his super skins rules.


heres my list so far.........

Wonder Woman
The Flash
Zoom (Hunter Zolomon)
Doomsday
Darkseid
Mongul (doubtful but maybe)
Orion
Izaya
Mr. Mxyzptlk
Zatanna
Doctor Fate
Phantom Stranger
the Spectre
Green Lantern (Alan Scott) (theoretically)
Ion (without trying)
Metamorpho, the Element Man
Batman (if he killed)
Nightwing (I think dick could do it if bruce can but i just might be a wing mark)
Captain Marvel
Black Adam
Paralax (Hal Jordan)

and just for fun a handful of marvel characters that could take him too

The Hulk
Thor
Onslaught
Mr. Sinister (If he had time to study his dna)
Apocalypse (Hed find a way)
Loki
Mephisto
Ghost Rider (if he killed)
Dr. Strange
Silver Surfer
Galactus
Thanos
Punisher (when he died and came back as a warrior angle marvel knights)

for more fun Image and Topcow peeps....

Spawn
Witchblade
Darkness

hehe this is fun but its becoming too much of a rumble thread post

[LibrarianThorne]

I really don't think that Batman could take Superman if Superman was actually using his powers and trying. The people on my list could, arguably, take down Superman if Superman used his powers intellegently. Batman can't do a thing against being decapitated at 140,000 MPS.

[ShaggyB]

I really don't think that Batman could take Superman if Superman was actually using his powers and trying. The people on my list could, arguably, take down Superman if Superman used his powers intellegently. Batman can't do a thing against being decapitated at 140,000 MPS.

true but tower of bable says otherwise. Hell OMAC and Brother Eye are a result of the plans batman made to take down everyone, and apparently they are good plans.

I always thought it was silly that batman could beat supes but hes done it many times, if memory serves me right a few times when supes was being made to try and kill bats. pre IC he always had the ring on him, id say it'd be possible, however unlikely, of him still pulling of the victory.

Supes biggest problem is he holds back, its the reason doomsday killed him to begin with, he could have hurlled him into space and towards the sun, but no he got into a fist fight with him. Superman would sacrifice himself rather than kill an enemy that is life threating to him.

[Devil_LeonX]

But Bats would need kryptonite, we are talking abut people with just their abilitys, with superman going against them one on one no k at all

[filthysize]

I think it was Grant Morrison who said that if you give him enough time to prepare, Bats could take down Galactus all by himself.

I honestly believe that Batman is smart enough to figure out a way to kill anyone in the DCU. If he really wants to kill Superman, he'll kill Superman. If he can't beat someone physically, Bats figures out a way to weaken the enemy. Remember Prometheus?

[dancj]

No, his vulnerability to magic means he's just has vulnerable to magic as anybody else. The magic completely bypasses his bio-electric aura do to its chaotic nature. Over the years he's grown a tad more resistant to it though.

How does that disagree with what PatricG said?

[dancj]

The extent of Superman's vulnerability to magic rises and falls with each writer, I expect.

That's the ultimate truth. As I understand it it's pretty much exactly what PatrickG said, but some writers don't stick to that

Dan

[dancj]

Hell OMAC and Brother Eye are a result of the plans batman made to take down everyone, and apparently they are good plans.

I know Brother Eye was Batman's but was OMAC anything to do with him?

[MythicBrawn]

I really don't think that Batman could take Superman if Superman was actually using his powers and trying. The people on my list could, arguably, take down Superman if Superman used his powers intellegently. Batman can't do a thing against being decapitated at 140,000 MPS.

I also don't consider Batman to be this all encompassing threat. Why do people think that only Batman prepares for every evantuality? A lot of the stories where Batman beats Superman requires that Superman is caught off-guard or Batman has plenty of time to prepare. Superman can make plans too. Batman can be caught off-guard since Superman almost killed him when Maxwell Lord was controlling him.

[Agentum]

But of course if Superman used all of his powers he could beat all crime by himself, just runnin around in superspead an burn with his eye rays.

Batman must have a big kryptonite rock or something i guess.

[Rylon]

I know Brother Eye was Batman's but was OMAC anything to do with him?No. The OMACs were the creation of Maxwell Lord.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

In the "Pantheon Of The Gods" storyarc, Superman withstood a magical arrow from an evil god. It hurt, but Superman neither died nor was left unconscious/scarred. So, Superman DOES have some resistence to magic.

And for the gazillionth time, Batman CAN NOT kill Superman.

[Rylon]

Uh, everyone's forgetting the obvious: Batman.It isn't that we forgot, it's that we don't have time for another "Can Batman kill Superman debate."

It's not like we're going to come to a conscious this century. I submit as evidance various posts in this thread following your post.

[Thanos_6383]

Asgardian Destroyer
The Fury

[lucifernomi]

Cap Marvel koed Superman once and said it was also because of supermans weakness to magic.


It's worth noting that while superman has no invulnerability to magic, that still only makes him as vulnerable as anybody else in his strength-class. So even if you had a magic punch, you'd still need someone like Marvel to throw it hard enough to do any damage.

[lucifernomi]

But of course if Superman used all of his powers he could beat all crime by himself, just runnin around in superspead an burn with his eye rays.

That might be enough to stop all crime in our worldd, but not the DCU with a cadre a super-villians that could do virtually the same thing.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

It's worth noting that while superman has no invulnerability to magic, that still only makes him as vulnerable as anybody else in his strength-class. So even if you had a magic punch, you'd still need someone like Marvel to throw it hard enough to do any damage.

Indeed. Someone whose powers are magic-based is not automatically capable of killing/defeating Superman. Loeb said it once in an interview, but he was/is absolutely wrong: having "magical fists (or punches)" doesn't mean anything. Magic affects Superman in the form of spells cast upon him. Marvel having magical fists only means that his strength comes from magic. Nothing else. Those punches would affect him if they transmitted some sort of spell or something. But they are only punches. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Supes35]

Magic doesn't kill Superman. He's vulnerable to it yes, but it doesn't kill him. You need kryptonite to do that, and kryptonite is hard to come by.

WW or Captain Marvel would have a really hard time killing Superman, especially if he isn't holding back and uses his powers wisely. If they just go into the fight thinking they would just automatically kill Superman, than that would make them a tad bit arrogant which in turn, makes them vulnerable.

Since Superman is very capable of taking down the entire JLA, they would need a real plan, since he is the most powerful guy on Earth has been stated many times. If they don't have a real plan, than they are in real trouble.

Since Superman is invulnerable and since you can't kill him physically, one would need kryptonite to stop him.

[Supes35]

Oh and BTW, Superman beat Thor.

I know that Marvel fanboys are still reeling from that, but it happened.

[ShaggyB]

I know Brother Eye was Batman's but was OMAC anything to do with him?

No the OMACs are just using the plans as passed by brother eye who had access to them

[ShaggyB]

Oh and BTW, Superman beat Thor.

I know that Marvel fanboys are still reeling from that, but it happened.


hahaha oh its soo funny when people argue about superman being written poorly and loosing to batman. ie the no way he can plan enough to beat him as it is not within his power set to be able to move fast enough to beat superman

and yet people still point out supes beat thor which isnt possible considering the magic hammer (a weapon of considerable power) being swung by a god whos strength equals if not exceeds supermans own, and not to even bring up the fact that he has magic lightning, which is how marvel beats supes.

I submit to most that superman can be killed by anyone with the proper time and skills to prepare for the fight. Those with magic powers of a destructive nature can kill him with ease. it is truely that simple.

[Supes35]

hahaha oh its soo funny when people argue about superman being written poorly and loosing to batman. ie the no way he can plan enough to beat him as it is not within his power set to be able to move fast enough to beat superman

and yet people still point out supes beat thor which isnt possible considering the magic hammer (a weapon of considerable power) being swung by a god whos strength equals if not exceeds supermans own, and not to even bring up the fact that he has magic lightning, which is how marvel beats supes.

I submit to most that superman can be killed by anyone with the proper time and skills to prepare for the fight. Those with magic powers of a destructive nature can kill him with ease. it is truely that simple.

Thor is equal to Superman, but it doesn't mean that its impossible for Superman to beat him. Oh and BTW, magic can't kill Superman. It can hurt him but not kill him. So, its no surprise that he can beat Thor. In that story, we saw a Superman who doesn't hold back and we've seen in the past that when he doesn't hold back Superman is damn near impossible to beat. He didn't hold back against darkseid in S/B a couple years ago, and he gave darkseid a huge ass beating.

Also, he's beaten Capt. Marvel before. If Superman doesn't hold back against Capt. Marvel, he's toast. I think Cap got arrogant and thought he would have an easy victory against Supes in the first S/B arc and he got the surprise of his life.

Kryptonite on the other hand, can kill him.

As I said before, Superman isn't easy to kill. You can't just go up to him and shoot him or blast him, since he is invulnerable. You would need kryptonite to do that, and kryptonite is a rare source that's extremeley hard to find.

Oh and BTW, DC is taking away the magic weakness OYL according to some so magic won't hurt Superman that much, anymore. I think they are making kryptonite his only weakness.

[ShaggyB]

Thor is equal to Superman, but it doesn't mean that its impossible for Superman to beat him. Oh and BTW, magic can't kill Superman. It can hurt him but not kill him. So, its no surprise that he can beat Thor. In that story, we saw a Superman who doesn't hold back and we've seen in the past that when he doesn't hold back Superman is damn near impossible to beat. He didn't hold back against darkseid in S/B a couple years ago, and he gave darkseid a huge ass beating.

Also, he's beaten Capt. Marvel before. If Superman doesn't hold back against Capt. Marvel, he's toast. I think Cap got arrogant and thought he would have an easy victory against Supes in the first S/B arc and he got the surprise of his life.

Kryptonite on the other hand, can kill him.

As I said before, Superman isn't easy to kill. You can't just go up to him and shoot him or blast him, since he is invulnerable. You would need kryptonite to do that, and kryptonite is a rare source that's extremeley hard to find.

Oh and BTW, DC is taking away the magic weakness OYL according to some so magic won't hurt Superman that much, anymore. I think they are making kryptonite his only weakness.

essential the debate is not that magic can hurt / kill him, its more over who has the correct magic and power to theoretically kill him. its not a question of can supes beat thor its a question of on the right day can thor kill superman, the answer is yes. can superman beat thor, sure he can. can thor beat superman, sure he also could. can supes kill thor, possibly (depends on if you count the fact that he may just be rez'd by the gods in 5 minutes or not)
likewise thor could kill supes if he was trying hard enough to.

as for captain marvel hes 10 and hes gonna get cocky but does he have the strength and powers needed to get the job done... yes he does.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Oh and BTW, DC is taking away the magic weakness OYL according to some so magic won't hurt Superman that much, anymore. I think they are making kryptonite his only weakness.

Interesting. Where did you hear this?

[Damo]

Eh. I shouldn't have minded Superman beating Thor. I mean, I like Thor, but I prefer Superman. But I did mind, because I've been hearing for years about how Superman has a weakness to magic, and Thor is the most powerful magic superhero there is... so I felt the magic aspect should have at least been addressed in their fight.

Aside from that, things went down about right though.

[ShaggyB]

Eh. I shouldn't have minded Superman beating Thor. I mean, I like Thor, but I prefer Superman. But I did mind, because I've been hearing for years about how Superman has a weakness to magic, and Thor is the most powerful magic superhero there is... so I felt the magic aspect should have at least been addressed in their fight.

Aside from that, things went down about right though.

frankly i dont think he could take thor, i think if he was on his best day and thor was on his worst he might be able to but other than that i think thor could beat him anytime.

meanwhile the whole thor supes arguement is not the purpose of this thread, this was on who could kill superman, if you disagree with someone that anyone has listed be able to back it up with some facts, not with in this issue blank beat blank therefore he can not kill superman.

again the point was to list off characters that had the right skills and powers to defeat the man of steel.

[handOFfate]

The Spectre- Fairly easily, since the character is essentially an unkillable god.
The Flash (Wally West)- If Wally could steal his speed, he could find a way to pummel Supes into submission.
Zoom- See the Flash.
Darkseid- Precrisis could do it very handilly if he really tried. Postcrisis version doesn't appear to be strong enough.

I don't know about Captain Marvel. He could possibly beat down Superman, but I don't know about killing him. Billy, being the purest character in the DC universe, would never do it anyway.

[Valhalla]

Didn't Superman give Batman a Ring of Kryptonite way back in case he went bad. So obviously he believe Bats can take him.

[Notahiro]

First as for Batman, ref: The Dark Returns (the original and the second part), Hush, etc. given the right set of circumstances Bat's has the Man of Steel's number.

How about Parasite? Supes alwasy seems to beat him, but on striaght up power lvls he could probably take out Superman ...

Thoughts?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

First as for Batman, ref: The Dark Returns (the original and the second part), Hush, etc. given the right set of circumstances Bat's has the Man of Steel's number.

How about Parasite? Supes alwasy seems to beat him, but on striaght up power lvls he could probably take out Superman ...

Thoughts?

The Parasite? Unless he steals power from several sources, then no.

[Damo]

Wouldn't mind seeing that fight though. Parasite starting with a few low level people, slowly building on more and more leayers of powers, confronting more and more powerful people until he was ready to fight Supes.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Wouldn't mind seeing that fight though. Parasite starting with a few low level people, slowly building on more and more leayers of powers, confronting more and more powerful people until he was ready to fight Supes.

Could be. I wonder if The Parasite would either absorb or withstand or be put down by a Heat Vision blast?

[Rylon]

The Parasite could, theoretically, absorb the powers of someone unaffected by heat vision.

[NotSuper]

It almost seems like any decent villain or hero could kill Superman with enough Green K. That's not the way things should be, but they do appear that way sometimes.

Incidentally, I never really bought Doomsday being able to take down Kal in the first place. Maybe if he bleed Green K I would've, but otherwise he's just another unstoppible monster in a long line of unstoppible monsters. Superman should've have too much trouble with mindless killing machines.

[ShaggyB]

Ok lets assume Kryptonite is not in play. basically because you or i could kill him with the right supply of K-nite.

so that takes out batman nightwing and any other none powered hero or villian.

lets go from there....

Wonder Woman
The Flash (Wally West)
Zoom (Hunter Zolomon)
Doomsday
Darkseid
Mongul (doubtful but maybe)
Orion
Izaya
Mr. Mxyzptlk
Zatanna
Doctor Fate
Phantom Stranger
the Spectre
Green Lantern (Alan Scott) (theoretically)
Ion (without trying)
Metamorpho, the Element Man
Captain Marvel
Black Adam
Paralax (Hal Jordan)

and just for fun a handful of marvel characters that could take him too

The Hulk
Thor
Onslaught
Mr. Sinister (If he had time to study his dna)
Apocalypse (Hed find a way)
Loki
Mephisto
Ghost Rider (if he killed)
Dr. Strange
Silver Surfer
Galactus
Thanos

for more fun Image and Topcow peeps....

Spawn
Witchblade
Darkness

[Damo]

Ok lets assume Kryptonite is not in play. basically because you or i could kill him with the right supply of K-nite.

so that takes out batman nightwing and any other none powered hero or villian.

lets go from there....

Wonder Woman
The Flash (Wally West)
Zoom (Hunter Zolomon)
Doomsday
Darkseid
Mongul (doubtful but maybe)
Orion
Izaya
Mr. Mxyzptlk
Zatanna
Doctor Fate
Phantom Stranger
the Spectre
Green Lantern (Alan Scott) (theoretically)
Ion (without trying)
Metamorpho, the Element Man
Captain Marvel
Black Adam
Paralax (Hal Jordan)

and just for fun a handful of marvel characters that could take him too

The Hulk
Thor
Onslaught
Mr. Sinister (If he had time to study his dna)
Apocalypse (Hed find a way)
Loki
Mephisto
Ghost Rider (if he killed)
Dr. Strange
Silver Surfer
Galactus
Thanos

for more fun Image and Topcow peeps....

Spawn
Witchblade
Darkness


Provided you invoke the "best day of their lives, worst day of his" rule, I agree with everyone but Apocalypse. That loser's had since the time of the Pharoahs to take over the world, and in the end the most damage he did in the real Marvel Universe was to convince the Victorian era Hellfire Club to do horrible things for money. Geez, like they weren't going to do that anyway. His mutant power is to be a little stronger than usual, and pretty ugly, and everything else comes from his stumbling upon technology from the 30th Century. A monkey could be a bigger threat with that kind of technology, and wouldn't wear a silly A on its belt, or talk about mutants needing to fight one another to prove their genetic superiority while secretly having F- grade mutant powers.

Anyway, if you're going to list Image and DC you may as well list pre-crisis villains as well. And what about Per Degaton? Nothing says "I win" like going back and smothering the infant Kal, before the Kents found him. Heck, I still think he would have been perfect for the ultimate mastermind in "JLA: The Nail". That's all he would need, just a nail. For that matter, Mordru could probably give Superman as serious a beating as Fate ever could.

[dancj]

Ok lets assume Kryptonite is not in play. basically because you or i could kill him with the right supply of K-nite.

so that takes out batman nightwing and any other none powered hero or villian.

That doesn't take out Batman. He'd find a way - even if it involved manipulating a super powered hero/villain into doing it.

Dan

[effang]

I also don't consider Batman to be this all encompassing threat. Why do people think that only Batman prepares for every evantuality? A lot of the stories where Batman beats Superman requires that Superman is caught off-guard or Batman has plenty of time to prepare. Superman can make plans too. Batman can be caught off-guard since Superman almost killed him when Maxwell Lord was controlling him.

Wait...did you actually read that book? Or you're just talking out of your pee guu. Superman clearly can NOT kill Batman. A physical battle, a mental battle, it really doesn't matter, there is nothing that Superman can do that can cause Batman any kind of life threatening damage.

I mean, Superman (planet mover, black hole escaper) managed to grab Batman and choke him. Leaving finger indentations. Now this is interesting, because it has been the rare situation where I can recall Superman's battles leaving physical indentations in the villains. Oh yeah, Superman also successfully shot Batman with his heat vision. And Batman ended up fine. 100% ok!

Take this all with a grain of salt. There is subtle sarcasm, but it is obvious that Batman isn't "just human." I guess that's the advantage of being a comic character, you can be a "human" but act, smell, perform, look like a super powered freak.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

About Superman´s vulnerability to magic, IMHO he is AS vulnerable to magic as anyone else.

It´s like putting Booster Gold and Martian Manhunter side by side and launching a telepatic assault on both.

Most likely, Booster Gold will fall to the ground whereas Jonn wil stand there trying to resist.
It´s not because BG is especially vulnerable to a telepatic assault, he just happens to be AS vulnerable to a telepatic attack as anyone else.

Same with Superman and magic.

You put him side by side with Hulk and you bash both full-on in the head with magic Mjolnir.
It´s not like Hulk will stand there dizzy whereas Superman will automatically turn into butter at the mere touch of the Uru metal in his forehead.

Superman is AS vulnerable to magic as Hulk, so he´ll be AS hurt by a magic attack as the Hulk.

For instances, take Captain Marvel´s Shazam! attack.
If Mjolnir is magic, what´s to say of the Shazam! lightning bolts?
In all fairness, they would have atomized Superman if he where completelly defenseless against magic as some claim.

But as we learned from the Shazam bolts and other cases, Superman is not completelly defenseless to magic.

He just happens to be AS vulnerable against it AS everyone else.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Wait...did you actually read that book? Or you're just talking out of your pee guu. Superman clearly can NOT kill Batman. A physical battle, a mental battle, it really doesn't matter, there is nothing that Superman can do that can cause Batman any kind of life threatening damage.

I mean, Superman (planet mover, black hole escaper) managed to grab Batman and choke him. Leaving finger indentations. Now this is interesting, because it has been the rare situation where I can recall Superman's battles leaving physical indentations in the villains. Oh yeah, Superman also successfully shot Batman with his heat vision. And Batman ended up fine. 100% ok!

Take this all with a grain of salt. There is subtle sarcasm, but it is obvious that Batman isn't "just human." I guess that's the advantage of being a comic character, you can be a "human" but act, smell, perform, look like a super powered freak.


LOL
I was wathcing this JLU episode the other day, where Superman fights Darkseid, ending up broken up on the ground.
Batman goes up and tries to stop Darkseid from killing Supes and gets slapped a couple times by him.

This is the sme guy that was seconds ago punching through walls and perforating buildings in his fight with Kal and now he can´t obliterate Batman with a mere swat of his pinky toe?

Clearly, Batman must be a cosmic being by now.... :rolleyes:

[Agentum]

And Major Macabre the best villain there is!

[Lorendiac]

But as we learned from the Shazam bolts and other cases, Superman is not completelly defenseless to magic.

He just happens to be AS vulnerable against it AS everyone else.

I tend to agree. In fact, in the second post in this thread, I started out with this sentence: His "invulnerability" is supposed to pretty much fail whenever someone clobbers him with heavy-duty magic.

I didn't say that if you wave a little magic in his face, he will curl up and die no matter what type of magic it was, or how weak (or strong) it was. I just pointed out that magical attacks seem to be capable of harming him much the same as they would any "normal" human target if they connected. I'm pretty sure a magic sword can cut through his flesh, for instance. I think some supernatural creatures have also drawn blood with fangs and claws when tussling with Superman. On the other hand, just being "magical" didn't make them totally immune to Superman's own super-strength when he struck back.

(However, not every writer is in total agreement with every other writer regarding the details of how these things work.)

On the subject of Thor: Although I know I once read Superman's meeting with Thor, I can't remember the details of what, exactly, Thor tried to do to him. Did he try to blast at him with magic lightning?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

The Parasite could, theoretically, absorb the powers of someone unaffected by heat vision.

Hmmm... Indeed. Hadn't thought of that.

[Supes35]

frankly i dont think he could take thor, i think if he was on his best day and thor was on his worst he might be able to but other than that i think thor could beat him anytime.

meanwhile the whole thor supes arguement is not the purpose of this thread, this was on who could kill superman, if you disagree with someone that anyone has listed be able to back it up with some facts, not with in this issue blank beat blank therefore he can not kill superman.

again the point was to list off characters that had the right skills and powers to defeat the man of steel.


Well, Superman defeated Thor in the JLA/Avengers teamup so obviously, he can take him.

So Thor uses magic. It doesn't mean that Superman can't beat him, which was shown, before.

[Supes35]

essential the debate is not that magic can hurt / kill him, its more over who has the correct magic and power to theoretically kill him. its not a question of can supes beat thor its a question of on the right day can thor kill superman, the answer is yes. can superman beat thor, sure he can. can thor beat superman, sure he also could. can supes kill thor, possibly (depends on if you count the fact that he may just be rez'd by the gods in 5 minutes or not)
likewise thor could kill supes if he was trying hard enough to.

as for captain marvel hes 10 and hes gonna get cocky but does he have the strength and powers needed to get the job done... yes he does.


Having strength and power don't mean that you'll win a fight.

Again, Capt. Marvel got arrogant against Superman. As a result, Capt. Marvel got pwned.

Oh and BTW, Superman could kill Thor too, if he was really trying, as well. It goes both ways.

As for magic, again, it doesn't kill him. It hurts him, yes, but its not lethal to him. Only kryptonite kills him.

[Agentum]

But when he died the last time, was kryptonite really involved then?
No i think he can die, only just almost nobody can do it, not as long as he is so popular:D
Batman can't die either, thats more impressive to me :D

[dancj]

As for magic, again, it doesn't kill him. It hurts him, yes, but its not lethal to him. Only kryptonite kills him.

What gives you this impression? As far as I'm aware any kind of attack can kill him if it's powerful enough, and magic wouldn't need to be all that powerful if it was used in the right way

[Eliseu Gouveia]

What gives you this impression? As far as I'm aware any kind of attack can kill him if it's powerful enough, and magic wouldn't need to be all that powerful if it was used in the right way


Agreed, MXYPTLK could easily morph Superman into anything from a lollipop to a vase, so if he put his mind into it, he could have killed Clark.

It´s just a matter of how powerfull the magic at work is.
As an example, Banshee´s screams can insta-kill any human and only left Superman in a brief coma.

[NotSuper]

What gives you this impression? As far as I'm aware any kind of attack can kill him if it's powerful enough, and magic wouldn't need to be all that powerful if it was used in the right way
You're right. Magic has ALWAYS been lethal to Superman.

[dancj]

It´s just a matter of how powerfull the magic at work is.
As an example, Banshee´s screams can insta-kill any human and only left Superman in a brief coma.

IIRC the only reason that her scream didn't kill Supes was nothing to do with his powers, but was to do with the fact that her magic was directed at Superman, and Superman was effectively a fictional character made to hide Clark Kent's true identity, and so the magic kind of lost its focus. If that makes sense

[Eliseu Gouveia]

It does make sense but I don´t like it.

Simply because it has to do with the old "Clark Kent is the real one and Superman is a mask".

If anything, Clark is the act, not Superman.

Clark is the one who has to constantly lie, hide behind glasses and meek, cowardly posture, try to go through daily life with kiddy gloves, careful not to crush Perry´s hand, careful not to bump into Cat and send her flying, caution here, watch it there.
At the very best, both are sides of the same person.

At the worst case, he has a split personality, which means that he´s mentally challenged.

[Damo]

Well, there's Clark Kent, and then there's Clark Kent.

There's Clark the mask, the glasses wearing guy that has to try to blend in with the crowd and go unseen.

Then there's Clark of the Kent farm, who loves his parents too much to ever think of being a Kent as being anything less than Super.

The true Batman is indeed the guy sitting in the Batcave, in costume but with the mask off, talking to Alfred while going over some clues.

The true Superman... I don't think anyone's found an answer that satisfies everyone just yet. Which, if you like, might be why Banshee's scream failed.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Another clue as to why Superman is the true persona and Clark the fake one.

Clark has only one note, he´s a meek and sbmissive.

Superman,no, he has the entire range; defiant in the presence of Darkseid, shy when close to Wonder Woman, defensive when near to Bats, annoyed when MXYPTLK comes by....one could go on and on.

[Damo]

Another clue as to why Superman is the true persona and Clark the fake one.

Clark has only one note, he´s a meek and sbmissive.

No. The Clark Kent he created to work in the Daily Planet is "meek and submissive". The other Clark Kent that grew up on the Kent farm and fought long and hard to get the journalistic creds to work at the Daily Planet is not.

[NotSuper]

No. The Clark Kent he created to work in the Daily Planet is "meek and submissive". The other Clark Kent that grew up on the Kent farm and fought long and hard to get the journalistic creds to work at the Daily Planet is not.
Right. That's the "Waid/Morrison view" as I call it. It's cool that there's so many different facets to Superman's personality.

[MajinShenron]

Hulk can kill him.