Continuity and deep plots possible in this era?

[Harlock]

I have been thinking about posting this here for a few days now. As I have been reading back issues more than new books lately and I have pondered some of the greater X-Stories of my younger days I have been plagued with this question in the back of my mind:

With the industry leaning toward relaunches of books, reshuffling of rosters, and creative teams both combined with the ever-growing need to bring in big sales numbers; is the era of deep and long growing plots in the X-Books a bygone one?

I think Claremont gets a lot of credit because he was able to go so long. Working out elaborate plots, barely hinting at some years before they came to fruition. What with the "big name" headhunting between the major companies and the need to boost sales on certain books at certain times, like to promote a film, how can any writer plan for such subtle types of character and plot development?

That's not to say there are no more good X-Stories, because I feel there are. But with the reshuffling we see so much nowadays, I feel the books are missing those long term developments that used to mean such a great payoff for long time readers. Just my thoughts on this. What are yours?

[Jake V]

It's possible, but not necessary for entertaining stories.

[fishtaco]

It's no longer possible, and it is an essential element of a good story.

[Sentinel K]

It's no longer possible, and it is an essential element of a good story.

No it isn't. You're wrong.

[Hi-Fi]

It's possible, but not necessary for entertaining stories.

What he said.

[Novaya Havoc]

It's possible, but not necessary for entertaining stories.

I say it isn't possible, yet unnecessary.

[UniqueFrequency]

i would say based purely on how fast people get moved or decide to move themselves from books, it's very difficult, but not impossible.

i can think of Lucifer and 100 Bullets as examples.

[Brian M.]

Morrison did it. Millar does it. Bendis is doing it in New Avengers. No it's not impossible. It's not neccessary either for an entertaining story.

[zonzorp]

It isn't possible.
It isn't neccesary for an entertaining story, since an entertaining story can be told in a single page. However, the loss diminishes the medium.

[Marty4Magik]

No it isn't. You're wrong.
Bull. It's his opinion. Can't be wrong in that.

For most X-books, especially the 2 core titles (Uncanny and Adjectiveless) I do think it is impossible these days.

It is not needeed to tell a good story, but IMHO, it does add a little something extra.

[Brian M.]

Claremont did it in his Uncanny run. Hell the first issue of Reload didn't we see Braddock there? Morrison had it in his run in X-Men. Milligan has been laying clues and a little plots running through out his run, they maybe that good but they are still there. Whedon is attempting to do it in Astonishing w/ the whole Ord/SWORD thing.

[Sentinel K]

Bull. It's his opinion. Can't be wrong in that.

For most X-books, especially the 2 core titles (Uncanny and Adjectiveless) I do think it is impossible these days.

It is not needeed to tell a good story, but IMHO, it does add a little something extra.

He didn't state it as an opinion. (Nothing new there then)

I was just doing the same back.

[Marty4Magik]

Claremont did it in his Uncanny run. Hell the first issue of Reload didn't we see Braddock there? Morrison had it in his run in X-Men. Milligan has been laying clues and a little plots running through out his run, they maybe that good but they are still there. Whedon is attempting to do it in Astonishing w/ the whole Ord/SWORD thing.

True, but more often then not, it gets screwed up by a Reload of the title...leaving a few sub-plots unresolved.....the last 10 years there are so damn many, it has really made me lose a LOT of interest/faith in Marvel.

@ Sentinal K; Oh come on, nobody is stating that it's just their opinion in this topic.
Besides, the topic starter ended with Just my thoughts on this. What are yours? ...that means he's asking for your opinion....so that means you don't have to add 'IMO'.....IMO ofcourse. ;)

[Sentinel K]

@ Sentinal K; Oh come on, nobody is stating that it's just their opinion in this topic.
Besides, the topic starter ended with Just my thoughts on this. What are yours? ...that means he's asking for your opinion....so that means you don't have to add 'IMO'.....IMO ofcourse. ;)

Well then my 'opinion' is that Fishtaco is wrong!

Which makes your original accusation redundant.

[Marty4Magik]

Well then my 'opinion' is that Fishtaco is wrong!

Which makes your original accusation redundant.

Actually no.

You see, you quoted Fishtaco, and said he was wrong....Since you weren't responding to the topicstarter, you should have added 'IMO'. :D

[Sentinel K]

Actually no.

You see, you quoted Fishtaco, and said he was wrong....Since you weren't responding to the topicstarter, you should have added 'IMO'. :D

So what if I quoted him?

This is bulls***.

[Marty4Magik]

So what if I quoted him?

This is bullshit.
You were attacking him on his opinion.
If you can't see the wrong in that........ :(

[Sentinel K]

You were attacking him on his opinion.
If you can't see the wrong in that........ :(

Yeah I was attacking him. Because he repeats the same (IMO :rolleyes: ) garbage over and over again.

It was my opinion that he is wrong in his view.

Anyway, I don't wanna argue.

[Brian M.]

Both of you, shut up. Spent a page talking about this. Stop drifting. Take it to X-Cres if you wanna yell at each other.

[xakko]

In the X-men? Given the rapid turnover and constant reloads, possibly.

I find respect to continuity enhances my enjoyment of a story. If the title has a history, then I'd hope a new writer won't ignore it.

And I find glaring continuity errors or what are- in my eyes- terrible mischaracterizations- to distract and detract from a story.

In alternate universe tales, like an Elseworld book, go to town, make your own world, have fun. But if you're the new, hotshot writer on a long-standing title, to just ignore everything to put your "stamp" on it is, to me, arrogance.

I think writers exist who can accomplish this.

[Mister Mets]

It's no longer possible, and it is an essential element of a good story.

So it's impossible to have a good self-contained comic book?
Amazing Fantasy #15, My Uncle Jeff, and "The Master Race" are not good?

I think continuity, and deep plots are still possible, and something many writers will use.
Ed Brubaker is almost certain to refer to events in his Deadly Genesis mini during his Uncanny run.
Morrison/ Whedon (the biggest X-writers since Claremont) both plotted larger arcs with deep plots, and featured hints of later arcs in their first stories (Morrison with the way Cassandra Nova took over Prof X's body, Whedon with the Danger Room acting wonky in his first issue.) I think a big difference between them, and Claremont is that their runs will have a more definitive beginning, middle, and end. Whedon for example, knows that his Astonishing X-Men run is limited to 4 volumes, and plots accordingly.
I expect other books, such as the Wolverine: Origins book to have a lot of deep plots.

I don't think it's essential to a good story, and that when it's used a careful balance must be maintained so as not to alienate/ confuse new readers.

I also find it odd how Peter Milligan's used as an example of quick turnover.
He's been on X-Men for 20 issues, to date. I think that's enough for deep plots.

[Jake V]

...and it is an essential element of a good story.
I guess you've never read Watchmen. Or Maus. Or The Dark Knight Returns. Or V For Vendetta. Or any of the Invisibles. Or any of Sandman. Or Superman: Red Son. Or any of the thousands of quality comic books that didn't need to adhere to continuity to be great.

[Twigglet]

Continuity holds the medium back if anything.

[Jake V]

Continuity holds the medium back if anything.
Not continuity on it's own, but a slavish devotion to it. Some good stories can be borne out of it, but the second the devotion to it becomes more of a priority than telling a good story, you've lost as a storyteller.

[Arilou]

I guess you've never read Watchmen. Or Maus. Or The Dark Knight Returns. Or V For Vendetta. Or any of the Invisibles. Or any of Sandman. Or Superman: Red Son. Or any of the thousands of quality comic books that didn't need to adhere to continuity to be great.

Actually just to nitpick: They all adhered to continuity, it was just their *own* continuity.

"Out of continuity" should really be "out of mainstream continuity".

[Jake V]

Actually just to nitpick: They all adhered to continuity, it was just their *own* continuity.

"Out of continuity" should really be "out of mainstream continuity".
Yeah, I thought that would be obvious. It's not the same sort of continuity that Fishy was talking about. There isn't some secret Watchmen continuity that Moore had to adhere to, he created his own.

[bfrank]

Yeah I was attacking him. Because he repeats the same (IMO :rolleyes: ) garbage over and over again.

It was my opinion that he is wrong in his view.

Anyway, I don't wanna argue.
so do you do with this with Jake V and the Dazzler freak?

[bfrank]

I guess you've never read Watchmen. Or Maus. Or The Dark Knight Returns. Or V For Vendetta. Or any of the Invisibles. Or any of Sandman. Or Superman: Red Son. Or any of the thousands of quality comic books that didn't need to adhere to continuity to be great.
you like to compare apples to oranges, eh?

[bfrank]

Continuity holds the medium back if anything.
Not at all... if used properly, it should be helping the industry.....

[Sentinel K]

so do you do with this with Jake V and the Dazzler freak?

Jake V doesn't repeat the same thing over and over again ad nauseum.

And Novaya havok's devotion to Dazzler does get wearisome sometimes but not bad enough to for me to actually comment on it.

I wouldn't mind Fishtaco's negative comments so much if he could balance them with positive comments. But he doesn't. Anything he says about modern comics is pretty much ALL negative. Its just totally unnecessary IMO.

But as I said before I don't want to argue with anyone about this. I'm just bored of reading exactly the same thing from Fishtaco in most of the threads.

[Jellobay]

so do you do with this with Jake V and the Dazzler freak?

He does that same thing to me and it does get a little testing at times. :(

[Jake V]

you like to compare apples to oranges, eh?
No, I just like comparing good comics to X-Men comics.

it's fun.

[Hi-Fi]

so do you do with this with Jake V and the Dazzler freak?

Well, Jake V and Novaya aren't...you know...annoying.

[Jellobay]

Well, Jake V and Novaya aren't...you know...annoying.

So you are saying I'm annoying? ;) :p

[Hi-Fi]

So you are saying I'm annoying? ;) :p

Oh, please!! Like you don't know...

















:evilsmile

[Jellobay]

I want to take this oppertunity to say that I think Pete is a really cool dude and never picks on some one unless they deserve it. :)

This is why he picks on me sometimes, because I can be a right twit. :)

He also has been know to help little old lady across streets and take food to shut ins. He is a very upstanding individual and I am happy to call him my friend.

I also wish that Fishtaco would stop trashing todays comics and come up with positive remarks. If you don't have nothing nice to say, please say nothing at all.

This ends this annoucement and we now return you to your regular posting.

Thank you. :D

[Mitsaso]

In the X-Universe it has gotten a teeeeeeeeeeeeeensy bit difficult to write anything without having to check on 20 years of continuity. But good stories can be told without minding much about a character's 20 years of (self-contriving at times) history.

I personally happen to like when after a 40-issue run, a writer manages to wrap everything up by pulling all the strings he had set free during the previous arcs with one try. But there are MANY ways of writing a good story, and building a nice continuity and respecting said continuity is only ONE of all these ways.

:)

And please guys, stop fighting. :D

[Sentinel K]

I also wish that Fishtaco would stop trashing todays comics and come up with positive remarks. If you don't have nothing nice to say, please say nothing at all.



Negativety is fine, as long as that is balanced with positivety.

Taco never balances it. Its always 'this is crap', 'this is garbage' 'avoid anything after 1991'. I want some positivety!!!!

Thats the only problem I have.

[Jellobay]

Negativety is fine, as long as that is balanced with positivety.

Taco never balances it. Its always 'this is crap', 'this is garbage' 'avoid anything after 1991'. I want some positivety!!!!

Thats the only problem I have.

That's not your only problem, but I have to say I agree with you.

I try to be positive though.

[Sentinel K]

That's not your only problem, but I have to say I agree with you.

I try to be positive though.

Its being treated.

[Jellobay]

Its being treated.

I think Fishtaco sometimes just gets off on the wrong foot.

I mean fish Pete and me think your an okay bloak, but maybe just a bit to serious.
We joke around all the time and you are young and we want you to have fun too.
Enjoy the comics you read as just a good read. They are quality family entertainment. :)

[Jake V]

Its being treated.
But those creams can only do so much. There's no cure for herpes.

[Sentinel K]

But those creams can only do so much. There's no cure for herpes.

Its not herpes. Its gonnorrhea.

[Jellobay]

Its not herpes. Its gonnorrhea.


I thought it was a case of Wanker-itis. :)

[Sentinel K]

I thought it was a case of Wanker-itis. :)

Are you spying on me?

*hides tissues*

[fishtaco]

I also wish that Fishtaco would stop trashing todays comics and come up with positive remarks. If you don't have nothing nice to say, please say nothing at all. I love the 80's! :D

[Jellobay]

Are you spying on me?

*hides tissues*


Now you see FishTaco, this is a good expample. I insult Pete, but he knows it doesn't really mean anything and has fun with it.

This is like reading comics. Enjoy and have fun. :)

[Jellobay]

I love the 80's! :D


:) You see there you go. :)

I'm proud of you buddy. A step in the right direction.

Fishtaco is an okay dude. :)

[Mitsaso]

In the X-Universe it has gotten a teeeeeeeeeeeeeensy bit difficult to write anything without having to check on 20 years of continuity. But good stories can be told without minding much about a character's 20 years of (self-contriving at times) history.

I personally happen to like when after a 40-issue run, a writer manages to wrap everything up by pulling all the strings he had set free during the previous arcs with one try. But there are MANY ways of writing a good story, and building a nice continuity and respecting said continuity is only ONE of all these ways.

:)

And please guys, stop fighting. :D

[Mariah]

I personally happen to like when after a 40-issue run, a writer manages to wrap everything up by pulling all the strings he had set free during the previous arcs with one try. But there are MANY ways of writing a good story, and building a nice continuity and respecting said continuity is only ONE of all these ways.
Who did that?

[Sentinel K]

Who did that?

I would guess they're talking about Morrison.

[Smarty Jones]

You have three different X-Men teams that literally act like they are in three different universes. There is no consistent theme flowing among the books, which is even more bewildering when some characters appear in the other X-book storylines.

Also, I feel the current approach marginalizes the scope of what is happening. Apocalypse returns, and it's relevant only in that particular book. Cyclops and Havok have another brother and Banshee dies, yet it's only relevant in that book, etc.

[Zombienorthstar]

Personally i love it when an arc dpedns on a really old piece of continuity...i get the smug feeling of understanding it...lol and i also get the feeling that these are characters with a past.

[Zombienorthstar]

Personally i love it when an arc dpedns on a really old piece of continuity...i get the smug feeling of understanding it...lol and i also get the feeling that these are characters with a past.