What if ShadowCat and Colossus were....

[CMBMOOL]

married in the 616 Marvel U ? :confused:


Come on think about it we seen it in alternate realities why not let it occur in our "Main" Marvel Universe ? :p


I mean they're one of the oldest X-men couples and it would make some sense if they did somewhat tied the knot after Civil War. :rolleyes:

What do you, the fans, think of this ? :(

[The Sword Is Drawn]

married in the 616 Marvel U ? :confused:


Come on think about it we seen it in alternate realities why not let it occur in our "Main" Marvel Universe ? :p


I mean they're one of the oldest X-men couples and it would make some sense if they did somewhat tied the knot after Civil War. :rolleyes:

What do you, the fans, think of this ?

Personally think she's better with Pete Wisdom... :rolleyes:

[TinMan]

I'd love to see them married, but not in a shotgun wedding Black Panther/Storm style.

Give their "new" relationship time to grow (it was only the most recent issue of Astonishing that they actually kissed in), like a good year or two our time, then marry them. I would be happy with that, but not lightning quick honestly.

I think it would also be good to revisit Petey's old feelings about Kitty and Doug Ramsey and tell/show how he's grown as a man. Clarify that he's matured and now realizes that he CAN make Kitty happy.

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

Personally think she's better with Pete Wisdom... :rolleyes:

Likewise.

I don't dislike Collosus, at all, but that relationship was done and dusted in Excalibur. Kitty had totally moved on. And Poitr wasn't still in love with her, just seeking some kind of purpose. Both accepted all this and moved on.

But since 'Retcon' Pryde returned to the X-Men all of that was re-written just as quickly as her age.

Pryde & Wisdom was a lot more interesting.

[fishtaco]

Likewise.

I don't dislike Collosus, at all, but that relationship was done and dusted in Excalibur. Kitty had totally moved on. And Poitr wasn't still in love with her, just seeking some kind of purpose. Both accepted all this and moved on.

But since 'Retcon' Pryde returned to the X-Men all of that was re-written just as quickly as her age.

Pryde & Wisdom was a lot more interesting.I agree 100%.

[Jmacq1]

Ehn, never cared for Wisdom and Pryde. Mostly because I couldn't stand Wisdom. I know some people think he's the best thing since sliced bread, but he never really did anything for me besides prove that at least one version of Warren Ellis' stock character (ie the jaded and cynical chain-smoking Brit) could actually stick around after his departure from a title.

Besides, I liked the character better when he was John Constantine.

Anyway, that's not to say I'm a charter member of the Piotr/Kitty fanclub, either. I think the relationship is showing some promise, but thus far it's all been explored from Kitty's side. Though since Kitty is Whedon's POV character for most of "Astonishing" that's not surprising. They need to develop this older, more mature Colossus a good deal more before I'm completely sold on things.

Still, the idea of two people coming back together after they've "grown up" and been apart and more fully realized what they want is a pretty good backstory for it all.

Oh, and I have a feeling the implication was that there was a lot more than kissing that was going on behind that door.....

[dopexvii]

yeah hate to break people illusion but pete wisdom - english people arnt remotely like that, pet hate a side.
i much rather see a kitty pride /love /marriage angle
rather than the panther storm one thats been crammed in our faces like it's the new x-23

[The Sword Is Drawn]

yeah hate to break people illusion but pete wisdom - english people arnt remotely like that, pet hate a side.
i much rather see a kitty pride /love /marriage angle
rather than the panther storm one thats been crammed in our faces like it's the new x-23

Aren't like what? You'l have to be more specific.

A chain smoking, harsh exteriored, ex-British secret serviceman? There's a lot more of those than you'd think. Not that they get to tell that many people that they worked for British Intelligence. There's this little thing called the Official Secrets Act which makes that a little difficult...

Claremont has made the character a lot more friendly in New Excalibur, something I don't entirely agree with. In part he's fleshed him out, in others he's diluted his character. And he should never have ade him quit smoking.

I found Pryde and Wisdom a much better pairing. They kind of balanced each other out, and aleays had relationship that could bust apart at any time. It was heated, and much less predictable.

The return of the Kitty/Piotr relationship is written well, but jarrs badly with what has come before.

[Sentinel K]

Claremont has made the character a lot more friendly in New Excalibur, something I don't entirely agree with. In part he's fleshed him out, in others he's diluted his character. And he should never have ade him quit smoking.


Quesada has a 'no smoking' policy so thats why neither wisdom or Logan are seen lighting up any more.

At least CC mentioned him giving up, rather than just pretending he never smoked, which he easily could have done.

[Sentinel K]

yeah hate to break people illusion but pete wisdom - english people arnt remotely like that, pet hate a side.
i much rather see a kitty pride /love /marriage angle
rather than the panther storm one thats been crammed in our faces like it's the new x-23

I'm exactly like Wisdom. I like young girls.

JOKING!!!!

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Besides, I liked the character better when he was John Constantine.

:confused:

What? Did I miss something. John Constantine DC/Vertigo Occult Conjuring Scouser, from the Hellblazer series? He doesn't even reside in the same universe.

Wisdom's sister Romany was an Occult expert, but it was never a part of Pete's life. He worked for the government, in espionage and black ops. With her S.H.I.E.L.D. training this made a pairing with Kitty make even more sense.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Quesada has a 'no smoking' policy so thats why neither wisdom or Logan are seen lighting up any more.

At least CC mentioned him giving up, rather than just pretending he never smoked, which he easily could have done.

Granted. I know it's Marvel policy, now, but it still riles me...

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I'm exactly like Wisdom. I like young girls.

JOKING!!!!

:D

Mind you Kitty was a lot older in Excalibur, than when she returned to the X-Men... :rolleyes:

[Sentinel K]

:D

Mind you Kitty was a lot older in Excalibur, than when she returned to the X-Men... :rolleyes:

She seems like she's about 19/20 in Astonishing. Thats about right isn't it?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

She seems like she's about 19/20 in Astonishing. Thats about right isn't it?

She was that age in Excalibur, physically. And then got booted back to 16/17 on rejoining the X-Men.

It was a bit of a mess...

[Sentinel K]

She was that age in Excalibur, physically. And then got booted back to 16/17 on rejoining the X-Men.

It was a bit of a mess...

Isnt the general rule '4 real years = 1 Marvel year'?

I'd work it out but I can't be arsed.

Or have I made that rule up?

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

yeah hate to break people illusion but pete wisdom - english people arnt remotely like that, pet hate a side.
i much rather see a kitty pride /love /marriage angle
rather than the panther storm one thats been crammed in our faces like it's the new x-23

In what bubble have you been living?

Chain smoking, whiskey drinking, cockney? There's lots of people lije that.

We sit around all day in a pinstripe suit, sipping tea, and telling people how "Terribly Nice" everyting is.

A lot British people are often quite like Pete Wisdom - well, bar the hot knives...

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

Isnt the general rule '4 real years = 1 Marvel year'?

I'd work it out but I can't be arsed.

Or have I made that rule up?

There is no officialk rule, no. Although that's the one usually quoted.

She was definitely old enough to drink, by the end of Excalibur, but certainly appeared older.

She was reverted to a 16/17 year old when she rejoined the X-Men.

[Jmacq1]

:confused:

What? Did I miss something. John Constantine DC/Vertigo Occult Conjuring Scouser, from the Hellblazer series? He doesn't even reside in the same universe.

Wisdom's sister Romany was an Occult expert, but it was never a part of Pete's life. He worked for the government, in espionage and black ops. With her S.H.I.E.L.D. training this made a pairing with Kitty make even more sense.

OK, I'll do the math:

John Constantine - Blonde Hair - "Occult" Background + Black Hair + "Espionage" background + A snazzy mutant power = Pete Wisdom

In terms of outlook and personality (IE the jaded and cynical chain-smoking Brit with a shady past) they were almost exactly identical when first introduced. Pete's evolved in a different direction for the most part since then, but when he first appeared, he was pretty much a "mutantized/marvelized John Constantine". Who is basically Warren Ellis' "stock character".

Also, Kitty didn't get her SHIELD training until -after- Wisdom was introduced, as I recall.

Don't take it the wrong way, thoug., I'm not trying to say you're "wrong" for liking Pete Wisdom mind you, or even for liking Pryde and Wisdom together. If that's your thing, it's cool. It's just not -my- thing, and I was explaining some of my (and only my, unless someone else chooses to agree with me) reasons for not liking the character.

[Jmacq1]

She was that age in Excalibur, physically. And then got booted back to 16/17 on rejoining the X-Men.

It was a bit of a mess...

Yeah, she was somewhere between 18 and 21 in Excalibur. Then was suddenly "barely sixteen" in X-Men. Then rapidly aged to at least 18, and appears to have closed the gap to 21ish yet again.

Maybe Superboy Prime punched her or something. :evilsmile

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

OK, I'll do the math:

John Constantine - Blonde Hair - "Occult" Background + Black Hair + "Espionage" background + A snazzy mutant power = Pete Wisdom

In terms of outlook and personality (IE the jaded and cynical chain-smoking Brit with a shady past) they were almost exactly identical when first introduced. Pete's evolved in a different direction for the most part since then, but when he first appeared, he was pretty much a "mutantized/marvelized John Constantine". Who is basically Warren Ellis' "stock character".

Sorry mate, but that's bollocks. Warren Ellis likes writing Espionage and Black Ops stories. Just look at his concept for X-Force or Stormwatch: Black/The Authority for further evidence of that. He wanted Black Ops characters in Excalibur, so he created Black Air, of which Peter Wisdom was a member.

When Black Air were revealed for what they were Wisdom left, and stayed with Excalibur.

He's a grumpy hardened Londoner (That's Southern England), a more realistc character Ellis put in to modernise the slightly twee BRitish vision applied to Excalibur.

John Constantine is a chancer, a maverick, an enigmatic Scouser - 'Scouser' is a term for a person who comes from Liverpool in the Northwest of England. His attitude is totally different, and Northerners do not mix with Southerners, well. Very different mentality.

Constantine has nothing to do with shady government agencies, just as Wisdom doesn't have an real dealing with the occult.

John Constantine was in fact based on a man Alan Moore encountetred on several occasions, and who a number of people claim genuinely exists. But to be fair there probably are a lot of people in Britain who look a bit like Constantine, and wear a long trenchcoat.

The only similarity between the two is that Wisdom looks a bit like the look they chose for Keanu Reeves when making the awful adaptation of Constantine movie.

Also, Kitty didn't get her SHIELD training until -after- Wisdom was introduced, as I recall.

No, Kitty had already been involved with SHIELD before the awful Kitty Pryde Agent of SHIELD mini, which did happen during Excalibur.

[Jmacq1]

Sorry mate, but that's bollocks. Warren Ellis likes writing Espionage and Black Ops stories. Just look at his concept for X-Force or Stormwatch: Black/The Authority for further evidence of that. He wanted Black Ops characters in Excalibur, so he created Black Air, of which Peter Wisdom was a member.

When Black Air were revealed for what they were Wisdom left, and stayed with Excalibur.

He's a grumpy hardened Londoner (That's Southern England), a more realistc character Ellis put in to modernise the slightly twee BRitish vision applied to Excalibur.

John Constantine is a chancer, a maverick, an enigmatic Scouser - 'Scouser' is a term for a person who comes from Liverpool in the Northwest of England. His attitude is totally different, and Northerners do not mix with Southerners, well. Very different mentality.

Constantine has nothing to do with shady government agencies, just as Wisdom doesn't have an real dealing with the occult.

John Constantine was in fact based on a man Alan Moore encountetred on several occasions, and who a number of people claim genuinely exists. But to be fair there probably are a lot of people in Britain who look a bit like Constantine, and wear a long trenchcoat.

The only similarity between the two is that Wisdom looks a bit like the look they chose for Keanu Reeves when making the awful adaptation of Constantine movie.

Well, being an American that hasn't grown up in Britain and wouldn't know a "Scouser" from any other folk south of Scotland, nor having any particular knowledge of how the various peoples within the UK interact, I'm afraid Pete Wisdom and John Constantine read very much the same to me when Wisdom was first introduced. You also must not have read my "math equation" since I pretty clearly subtracted "occult" and popped in "espionage" instead. As I said before, I'm stating -my- opinion and no one else's (that I know of). If you don't agree with it, that's fine, but I doubt any amount of debate on your part is going to change it.

No, Kitty had already been involved with SHIELD before the awful Kitty Pryde Agent of SHIELD mini, which did happen during Excalibur.

Maybe, but was she trained by them during that "involvement"? I'm not saying you're wrong, mind, but "involvement with SHIELD" can mean a lot of different things. Just about every hero in the Marvel U is "involved with SHIELD" to some degree or another.

Of course, we're also getting off topic here, which is partially my own fault:

Suffice to say, if Piotr and Kitty were to get married in due course, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

It'll never happen though: Kitty's one of Marvel's most "crushed on" characters. The dreams of thousands of lonely fanboys will be forever shattered if she gets hitched. ;)

[Amokitty]

I'd love to see them married, but not in a shotgun wedding Black Panther/Storm style.

Give their "new" relationship time to grow (it was only the most recent issue of Astonishing that they actually kissed in), like a good year or two our time, then marry them. I would be happy with that, but not lightning quick honestly.

This makes absolute sense. Marriage would be a logical progression with their long history together. Kitty and Peter are both adults now, and are entering into a serious, adult relationship. We now need to see them invest at least a couple of years or so into that relationship before thinking of getting hitched. Storm and T'Challa, to my mind, haven't had a real courtship period. I don't want to see this happen with Kitty and Peter. I believe those two are in it for the long haul, and it needs to be handled right.

For some sound reasons why this relationship works? Check out CBR member Anhayla's Kiotr community - http://community.livejournal.com/kiotr/3859.html

It would be nice for a change to see a MU marriage actually work. X-Men and Marriage don't seem to go too well together, unfortunately. Peter and Kitty could be the exception to that rule. They already have a solid foundation.

All it takes is a writer that cares enough to be creative.

[Brian M.]

This would actually make sense for these two characters. Give it sometime and then let it happen. Peter and Kitty may have moved on and all that stuff but his death showed Kitty still loved him even if she wasn't still IN LOVE with him. Also finding out he was alive, having her be the one to find him that can bring back some old feelings real fast I'd imagine. Give them some more courtship time and then I say do it.

[Faded]

I just wanted to say that I love your avatar (and tagline) Amokitty. Aren't we all, at best, Squirrel Girl wannabes? :p

Anyway [on subject], I'd prefer not. I think what would be more interesting than anything is Kitty and Piotr realizing that they missed each other, but they had grown up and, consequently, apart.

[xakko]

:D

Mind you Kitty was a lot older in Excalibur, than when she returned to the X-Men... :rolleyes:
we've fought about this before. Ellis aged her inappropriately to play her with his Marty Stu. And X-Men Unlimited dealt with this so very well in one sentence, saying she was trying to be grown-up before her time.

you casually ignore ALL Kitty continuity pre- AND post-Wisdom to come up with your "Piotr and Kitty are done" statement.

And all the issues to the contrary- the ones prior to Astonishing X-men- mean nothing to you.

Once again, I submit for your consideration:

Excalibur #71. (she talks about how she fantasized about meeting him again)
Excalibur #72. (her greatest fear is being hurt by him again)
Excalibur #125 (Moira and Lockheed understood it, long, meaningful looks).
Uncanny X-Men #375 (Kitty's deepest loyalties lie... with Piotr)
X-Men #110 (her memorial for Piotr)
X-Men Unlimited #38 (the anniversary of his death, she obsesses over him)

Piotr was pretty much constantly in her thoughts.

The only way to say she was "over" him is to basically be a Pryde-Wisdom fanatic, and not deal with the stories as written. Whedon is following continuity, not messing with it.

I would love for them to get married- Reed and Sue married- and be a stable relationship amidst the drama of the rest of the X-pairings. But if so, please, make it real- give them time, let them talk about their past and their future.

Then I'll be truly happy

[The Sword Is Drawn]

we've fought about this before. Ellis aged her inappropriately to play her with his Marty Stu. And X-Men Unlimited dealt with this so very well in one sentence, saying she was trying to be grown-up before her time.

you casually ignore ALL Kitty continuity pre- AND post-Wisdom to come up with your "Piotr and Kitty are done" statement.

And all the issues to the contrary- the ones prior to Astonishing X-men- mean nothing to you.

No. Not so. You see I know people argue that there has been hints since Kitty rejoined Uncanny, post-Excalibur, but the thing is that really every bit of writing since she rejoined is one bigger attempt to pretend that Excalibur never really happened.

Kitty Character developed smoothly in the transition between the X-Men and Excalibur, and the developed for over a decade in that book. It was a an easy through line, with very few flaws, right from her early birthday to her more adult self towardas the end of the book. So much in her life had changed. She'd lived in another country, travelled to parallel dimensions, and been a proper part of an actual team.

In short she had grown up. And in reality that was apparent when Alan Dabis was in charge, let alone Lobdell, and a mile and a half from Ellis.

Through the vast, and blinding majority of Excalibur continuity Kitty barely even mentioned Piotr. He was never refered to directly, until Fatal Attractions. Sure, we'd had Illyana's death, and Kitty's brief leave to see her, but the attention there was on a fallen friend on not with any ties to Collosus.

Kitty was far too busy being anipulated by Sat-yr-9/Courtney Ross or obsessing over Alistaire Stuart. She didn't give Piotr a second thought. That phase her life was over. Everything had changed.

My problem with your referencing these issues, is that this was the first time Colossus was really mentioned, and it falls under Scott Lobdell's period in charge of the book. His Excalibur hacked away, badly at all of the Excalibur that had come before, clearing half the cast, and only keeping the mutants. It broke from everything the book was, and had been about. But Lobdell found he had a problem, having axed all those characters to form his 'European' mutants only club, he didn't really have a cast left, and was desperate to tie over to the Fatal Attractions storyline, to enfuse something into the book. This entire crossover was forced and desperate. He had to justify making it a mutants only book, but it wasn't working. All the characterisation of Accolyte Piotr and Kitty was awful, and grated with her development up to that point.

When that didn't work, Lobdell would later bring in Douglock, Warlock but looking very like Kitty's other former love interest. I'm really glad he did, I loved the character, but all these attempts to weave Excalibur into the X-Books had very rough edges.

It wasn't until Ellis took over that he really rounded the book into something that worked. His characterisation of Kitty, as the young hacker, and person you got to sneak around for you worked very well. It finally seemed to be returning Kitty to the path she had been treading for the first 50 issues of Excalibur.

Her romance with Wisdom just happened. The two seemed to balance each other out pretty well. You knew it wouldn't last, but it was a really interesting dynamic while it did.

The entire issue where Colossus returns, and knocks Wisdom for six, explains the entire nature of their relationship. Yes, there's a past there, but a lot has happened. For him, time has kind of stood still. For her she's had a good many years being somebody else to the girl he met years ago. And he has to accept that, or not be around her.

Excalibur #125 had a reference in it, yes. but it was the final issue of Ben Raab's awful run which got the title axed, preparing for three characters to rejoin Uncanny. Raab had no new ideas, so he tried to find story angles tied into Kitty, Kurt and Piotr's early Uncanny storylines, under Claremont. But people disdn't want some half-arsed nostalgia stories. They weren't interesting enough, and seemed very out of character, to go back to a tie that was no longer relevent to any of the three, let alone the rest of the cast.

And anything in the two years after that was very convoluted. Kitty with her short 'spunky' hair, and regression to a 15 year old. Nightcrawler changed utterly from womanising, swash-buckling leader, to prudish and weak trianee priest. All piotr got was to stand in the background. The resulting stories were bad, because it was clear for anybody to see that the writers remembered all three characters from read Uncanny as kids, but had barely even looked at Excalibur.

The Unlimited issue you refer to was simply there to try and smooth out the bloody great creases whioch had been left behind by the Hunt for Xavier to Neo period for Piotr and Kitty. Her memorial was touching, yes, but her changes up to that point were far beyond explainable.

In my eyes, having read through Excalibur again recently after reading the Uncanny issues up to it's formation, the one thing that struck me was just how good a throughline it was for Kitty as a character.

For me Kitty pryde died when she left that book.

The character we now see in Astonishing is Kitty being writtwen well, again, for the first time since hen. Whedon is finally getting her back on track.

But as for her and Piotr, I haven't seen enough to actually 'feel' for the relationship again, yet. It still seems kinda forced.

Although I'm perfectly willing to have Joss prove me wrong...

[Death's Head 2.0]

No. Not so. You see I know people argue that there has been hints since Kitty rejoined Uncanny, post-Excalibur, but the thing is that really every bit of writing since she rejoined is one bigger attempt to pretend that Excalibur never really happened.

...

Although I'm perfectly willing to have Joss prove me wrong...

Agree with almost all of that.

Joss Whedon does a good job, but I think eve he would have to admit that between Excalibur and very recently Kitty Pryde had been shat on as a character.

There was a big movement during the Seagle period to not even mention Excalibur happening.

Now of course it's the pole opposite.

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

The only way to say she was "over" him is to basically be a Pryde-Wisdom fanatic, and not deal with the stories as written. Whedon is following continuity, not messing with it.

Bugger off. :D

Nobody is criticising the way Whedon writes this. He is writing within the trerms of the awful continuity left him.

But to not see Kitty as being "Over" Piotr is not a case of ignoring continuity. Rather, to claim otherwise is ignoring 122 issues of the book Kitty was in for over a decade, in exchange for two or three issues where the writers tried to link Kitty back Piotr firstly for a poor crossover story, and secondly for the characters leaving the book as it got cancelled.

Admittedlt that is exactly what the X-Writers ignotred at the time, but que cera.

[xakko]

Bugger off. :D

Nobody is criticising the way Whedon writes this. He is writing within the trerms of the awful continuity left him.

But to not see Kitty as being "Over" Piotr is not a case of ignoring continuity. Rather, to claim otherwise is ignoring 122 issues of the book Kitty was in for over a decade, in exchange for two or three issues where the writers tried to link Kitty back Piotr firstly for a poor crossover story, and secondly for the characters leaving the book as it got cancelled.

Admittedlt that is exactly what the X-Writers ignotred at the time, but que cera.
No, it's ignoring Ellis's run. Period. (And even he drew a very close friendship connection between Piotr and Kitty, as shown when she yelled at Wisdom for making light of him) Mojo Mayhem- which happened during Excalibur and was written by Chris Claremont- had her talking about "my Petey". Uncanny #375 was penned by Alan Davis.

From those writers and Ben Raab, you have the majority of the Excalibur issues covered. Only Warren Ellis had her "over" him. Period.

Yes, she had the romance with Alashdair Kinross. And for most of the first 30-40 issues, she thought the X-men were dead. Aside from that, and liking Alistair Stuart, there wasn't a whole lot of Kitty romance there. There were some moments of affection shown while Illyana was dying too.

If you have anything to show otherwise, I'd like to see it. But aside from Warren Ellis and X-Men 99-101 or so, I don't know where you are getting your ideas.

And there still is no justification for Excalibur #92, possibly the single worst characterization in X-history.

[Amokitty]

No, it's ignoring Ellis's run. Period. (And even he drew a very close friendship connection between Piotr and Kitty, as shown when she yelled at Wisdom for making light of him) Mojo Mayhem- which happened during Excalibur and was written by Chris Claremont- had her talking about "my Petey". Uncanny #375 was penned by Alan Davis.

From those writers and Ben Raab, you have the majority of the Excalibur issues covered. Only Warren Ellis had her "over" him. Period.

Agreed. I'm seeing some broad and sweeping generalizations going on in this thread with not a lot of facts to back them up. At least you cite (many) specific issue examples to back up your argument.

BTW, you forgot to mention the Alan Davis plotted and penned X-Men #98 where he gave us Peter and Kitty's great-granddaughters, Anya and Marti! ;)

I just wanted to say that I love your avatar (and tagline) Amokitty. Aren't we all, at best, Squirrel Girl wannabes? :p

Absolutely, and thanks! I LOVED your "Pull My Finger" Perfection avatar from Astonishing #13! Who am I kidding? I still love it. The animation was so cool. I thought it rocked pretty damn hard. :)

[frogjitsu]

I haven't really picked up the astonishing x-men book, but I would like to see Kitty and Piotr married maybe in a couple years.

[steve2275]

married in the 616 Marvel U ? :confused:
wait untill astonishing 25 :cool:

[The Sword Is Drawn]

No, it's ignoring Ellis's run. Period. (And even he drew a very close friendship connection between Piotr and Kitty, as shown when she yelled at Wisdom for making light of him) Mojo Mayhem- which happened during Excalibur and was written by Chris Claremont- had her talking about "my Petey". Uncanny #375 was penned by Alan Davis.

From those writers and Ben Raab, you have the majority of the Excalibur issues covered. Only Warren Ellis had her "over" him. Period.

Yes, she had the romance with Alashdair Kinross. And for most of the first 30-40 issues, she thought the X-men were dead. Aside from that, and liking Alistair Stuart, there wasn't a whole lot of Kitty romance there. There were some moments of affection shown while Illyana was dying too.

If you have anything to show otherwise, I'd like to see it. But aside from Warren Ellis and X-Men 99-101 or so, I don't know where you are getting your ideas.

And there still is no justification for Excalibur #92, possibly the single worst characterization in X-history.

Mojo Mayhem was an annual, featuring the X-Babies. It wasn't part of the main series.

Claremont didn't mention it to any real degree in the main book, niether did Davis, and Ellis resolved this some 80 issues into the book. Up until that point it hadn't gained more than a passing mention. Because it wasn't relevent. Apocalypse is right. Any reference to Kitty/Colossus ocurs in maybe only three out of 125 issues.

After Excalibur it still felt to me, any attempt to rekindle something between them, until Whedon's Astonishing run, was simply trying to find something to do with Colossus. He was only killed off because the writers didn't know what else to do with him.

From those writers and Ben Raab, you have the majority of the Excalibur issues covered.

And from that comment alone it shows the largest flaw in your arguament. To write off a huge number of issues of continuity from, both Claremont and Davis, by brief comments in something else written in another title is frankly naive. Almost as naive as dismissing the one of the most popular runs of any writer on Excalibur, and all of the other writers to have been involved with the book.

The fact is that even when Piotr joined Excalibur it was a doone and dusted relationship. Kitty and he would remain exceptionally close friends, and that bond should never be broken. But as for romance? Both were different people now.

And in all fairness Piotr was actually more interested in Meggan at the time. Which was a very bad idea, but there ya go...

[LoneWolf21]

Well, if they were married, odds are it'd have to do better than the marriage between Piotr and Kate in the Age of Apocalypse....

[xakko]

And from that comment alone it shows the largest flaw in your arguament. To write off a huge number of issues of continuity from, both Claremont and Davis, by brief comments in something else written in another title is frankly naive. Almost as naive as dismissing the one of the most popular runs of any writer on Excalibur, and all of the other writers to have been involved with the book.
What does the popularity of Ellis's run have to do with the issue at hand?

let's see... let's go with the fact that Ellis didn't know anything about Colossus's situation when he decided to pull through the completely OOC issue to promote his crappy Marty Stu romance with Kitty. (go ahead, try- there is no way to justify him going psychotic in Excalibur 92. it's a case of complete and utter writer failure- or rather, a writer with an agenda who didn't give a rats patoot how he achieved it) Add in that Claremont more than explained away the nonsensical relationship between Kitty and Wisdom and the sadly one dimensional character Ellis turned her into. How much of Excalibur was about Kitty's love life? A smattering of issues, before Ellis. And that was wrapped up and truly buried.

And how do you discount Mojo Mayhem? And just casually dismiss Excalibur #71 as a "crappy crossover"? You don't like it, so it doesn't count?

The fact is that even when Piotr joined Excalibur it was a doone and dusted relationship. Kitty and he would remain exceptionally close friends, and that bond should never be broken. But as for romance? Both were different people now.
you still haven't shown any facts. i have. all you have is Ellis, and Ellis wasn't writing a real Shadowcat, but rather a magically aged (don't argue- you have no basis to say she was older than 16 per the actual book) girlfriend for his stock character.


And in all fairness Piotr was actually more interested in Meggan at the time. Which was a very bad idea, but there ya go...
no. it isn't fair and it isn't true.

Piotr was never interested in Meggan as more than a friend. If you would kindly go and re-read the issues, you will see that she tried to blame her own attraction to him as her empathic ability picking up his feelings, but it wasn't so. And Brian knew Piotr was lying when he tried to take the fall for it.

[Jellobay]

Who would be the best man and maid of honor?

[LoneWolf21]

I imagne they'd finagle either Wolverine or Nightcrawler for the former, and either Storm or Rachel for the latter.

Now would it be a Catholic or Jewish ceremony?

[Amokitty]

I think it should be Kurt and a ressurected Illyana!

Since it's never been stated that Peter belongs to the Russian Orthodox church, and it's been implied that he had an Atheist upbringing - we're DEFINITELY looking at a Jewish ceremony here. Peter would look great in a yarmulke! L'Chaim!!

[Faded]

Absolutely, and thanks! I LOVED your "Pull My Finger" Perfection avatar from Astonishing #13! Who am I kidding? I still love it. The animation was so cool. I thought it rocked pretty damn hard. :)

Oh, I'm glad you liked it! We both have (had) awesomely rocking avatars!

And...um...yeah. Peter and Kitty? Not for or against a marital union. Could be sweet, could be disasterous depending on the writer.

[d newton]

Let's see... let's go with the fact that Ellis didn't know anything about Colossus's situation when he decided to pull through the completely OOC issue to promote his crappy Marty Stu romance with Kitty. (go ahead, try- there is no way to justify him going psychotic in Excalibur 92. it's a case of complete and utter writer failure- or rather, a writer with an agenda who didn't give a rats patoot how he achieved it) Add in that Claremont more than explained away the nonsensical relationship between Kitty and Wisdom and the sadly one dimensional character Ellis turned her into. How much of Excalibur was about Kitty's love life? A smattering of issues, before Ellis. And that was wrapped up and truly buried.
Criticizing one of the best runs of Excalibur again, Xakko? I put down Colossus going nuts in issue 92 down to the fact that he didn't want Kitty to have any boyfriends besides himself.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

What does the popularity of Ellis's run have to do with the issue at hand?

The fact that it was the most consistent run of Excalibur during the 1990s. And that it did an awful lot for developing Kurt, Kitty and Piotr. It is the most significant run for Kitty and Kurt of the 90s, and the second most for colossus. It was one of the few times that anybody did ANYTHING with them to further their character.

let's see... let's go with the fact that Ellis didn't know anything about Colossus's situation when he decided to pull through the completely OOC issue to promote his crappy Marty Stu romance with Kitty. (go ahead, try- there is no way to justify him going psychotic in Excalibur 92. it's a case of complete and utter writer failure- or rather, a writer with an agenda who didn't give a rats patoot how he achieved it)

That is a greatly unfair assesment. Ellis himself admitted that he wasn't fully aware of Colossus reasons for joining the Accolytes, but his dvelopment in the title was never critically out of character. He was a bit messed up after the whole of that and came to Muir Island hoping to get back with Kitty to solve everything in his life. But it couldn't even if he had. He learnt that he was more in love with the ideal of love, a glimpse of the past, than he was with Kitty herself. He had this image of her in his head that wasn't really Kitty, but a reshaping of her into the exact kind of woman he WANTED rather than what she had grown into. He arrived to find that the girl her knew had grown up, and she wasn't that person he was hoping for. She probably never was. He'd just shaped her that way in his head.

This was a well-written and terribly significant turning point in Colossus life. He ewas eventually able to resolve his feelings, and find a new role for himself, both within Excalibur and within the world. It still remains the best development he had had in a good lonmg while.


Add in that Claremont more than explained away the nonsensical relationship between Kitty and Wisdom and the sadly one dimensional character Ellis turned her into.

That was more for ironing out continuity than anything else. TRying to explain away her reversion upon rejoing the X-Men. Kitty was far from one dimensional under Ellis. She was a very level headed, and intelligent woman, who served a much more signifant role within Excalibur than simply being 'The kid' as she reverts to when with the X-Men. She was making her own decisions and choosing her own path. It wasn't always the right psath for her, but she was learning from her mistakes.

How much of Excalibur was about Kitty's love life? A smattering of issues, before Ellis. And that was wrapped up and truly buried.

Up until Lobdell's run the triangle between her Alistaire Stuart and Rachel, was in the background for the entire time. She eventually conceded that it was not to be, and nothing was ever going to happen, but it was there all the way through Claremont and then DAvis run.

And how do you discount Mojo Mayhem? And just casually dismiss Excalibur #71 as a "crappy crossover"? You don't like it, so it doesn't count?

I don't discount it, but it was an annual, outside of normal Excalibur continuity.

#71 was both out of the blue, and out of character, switching radically from the tone of the whole series p to that point. It was done to try and make the title fit better into the other X-Titles which it never really had, before, and it did not go easily.

you still haven't shown any facts. i have. all you have is Ellis, and Ellis wasn't writing a real Shadowcat, but rather a magically aged (don't argue- you have no basis to say she was older than 16 per the actual book) girlfriend for his stock character.

Howexactly is the better part of 70 issues of continuity NOT evidence to support that. Piotr wasn't even mentioned throughout the majority of that time. When the largest reference to him came from an annual, anot the main series, i think that IS significant.

By the time Ellis came on board he was only following on from Lobdell's set up. Kitty was already a lot more adult during his run, her costume was the same, and the way she was written. All Ellis did was flesh to write her a bit more rounded than Lobdell did. It was a smooth transition.

And Wisdom wasn't really a stock character, or a gimmick. During Lobdell's run he turned Excalibur away from being a book set in BRitain and transformed it into a generic X-Title. Ellis tried to return it to being relevent to its setting. BUt when the only English character you have is Captain Britain, now bleached of that persona by Lobdell, and who was a stereotype Brit anyway, he wanted to insert a more realistic British guy in there to even up the odds. Wisdom was created for that role, and because he could tie Excalibur to the Black Air plot.

He was also a pretty good character.

no. it isn't fair and it isn't true.

Piotr was never interested in Meggan as more than a friend. If you would kindly go and re-read the issues, you will see that she tried to blame her own attraction to him as her empathic ability picking up his feelings, but it wasn't so. And Brian knew Piotr was lying when he tried to take the fall for it.

Piotr never planned it happening, but he DID begin to fall for Meggan. What began as work on a painting of Meggan for Brian, resulted in a crush on the girl that he wasn't really aware of initially. But it wasn't just Meggan's empathic ability. HE genuinely liked her. Quite a lot. And he felt terrible guilt about that, because she was engaged to one of his better friends.

Re-read Ben Raab's run (if you must - it isn't great) and the Colossus one shot with Meggan, for more details.

None of this arguament is as one sided as you make it sound.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Criticizing one of the best runs of Excalibur again, Xakko? I put down Colossus going nuts in issue 92 down to the fact that he didn't want Kitty to have any boyfriends besides himself.

I kind of agree. This was a real turning point for both of them. When they were together they were both still kids. But in this issue this was two adults. Kitty had grown up, but Piotr was clinging to to that memory of his past, largely because it was one of the last times he was actually happy.

Without Kitty he had at least had Illyana. And when she went he at least had the X-Men. But when he walked out on them he went to the Accolytes. And after that he really had nothing. So he rant to Kitty trying to drag up this image of the past. But things had changed.

It was a really important story. For both of them.

[Rachel Grey]

I think it should be Kurt and a ressurected Illyana!

Since it's never been stated that Peter belongs to the Russian Orthodox church, and it's been implied that he had an Atheist upbringing - we're DEFINITELY looking at a Jewish ceremony here. Peter would look great in a yarmulke! L'Chaim!!

I'll have to go back and re-read the TPB but I'm pretty sure that DPS outright stated that Petey was raised an atheist.

So, yeah, I agree. Apart from the bridesmaid that is, I think it should be Rachel or Storm.

[Pryde&Wisdom]

you still haven't shown any facts. i have. all you have is Ellis, and Ellis wasn't writing a real Shadowcat, but rather a magically aged (don't argue- you have no basis to say she was older than 16 per the actual book) girlfriend for his stock character.

Shw as ten times the shadowcat that rejoined the X-Men. I quite like the way Whedon now writes her, but in the phase between Excalibur and Astonishing, her reverted age and every appearance written was lousy. And much as though you feel differently about it, there are a lot of people who feel like I and Sword do.

A lot of X-Readers never read Excalibur, in fact actively steered clear. But nonetheless Excalibur does comprise a third of Kitty life in comics so far, and the development in that title was both consistent and flowed well. Ellis run simply flowed on from the role Kitty had been placed in by Lobdell. It was never 'crazy' ageing. It was very natural. And the Colossus returning issue was really well thought through and written.

Everything since then has been a retcon. Even if you don't like the way Kitty had been left after Excalibur, and if you do I think you are wrong :D , you can't deny it happened, and X-Writers who seeked to deny it ever happened just to produce a more nostalgic feel to the X-Men did more damage than good. All three Excalibur returnees were damaged by this change. They are shadows of their former selves and now riddled with confusing inconsistencies because of it.

As for a Kitty Piotr marraige? Well I always prefered her with Wisdom (Naturally) because it was so much more intersting than the samey and stale Colossus.

However, I do think Piotr has always felt more for her than she for him. I just don't buy the head over heels feelings she has in Astoonishing. It jars badlky with past continuity.

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

Shw as ten times the shadowcat that rejoined the X-Men. I quite like the way Whedon now writes her, but in the phase between Excalibur and Astonishing, her reverted age and every appearance written was lousy. And much as though you feel differently about it, there are a lot of people who feel like I and Sword do.

You can add me to that list too. :D

I would argue that from a personal development point of view Excalibur was THE most important part of Kitty's life, through to adulthood. It narks me that so many writers pretended like Excalibur never even happened. You can't just ignore a decade of continuity - unless you're Kelly/Seagle, it would seem.

Kitty, when with the X-Men, is always written as the kid of the group. Excalibur wrote her as a real team player, not just the naive child of the group. That's all she ever is. Nobody bar Ellis has written her any different in the last decade. Even Whedon hasn't got a proper grasp on her.

There are only three reasons why writers try to rekindle the Kitty/Piotr realtionship.

1) They need to give Colossus 'something to do' because they can't be bothered to actually give him some proper development, and do anything else with him other than have the guy standing in the background.

2) Because they only ever see the X-Men as they were in the furst five years of Claremont's tenure, and want that 'retro' feel again.

or

3) They've run out of ay other ideas. :mad:

[Amokitty]

Jesus Christ, do you know how badly I dislike it when a thread degenerates into a Kete vs. Kiotr slugfest?? It brings out the worst in some people. There are some posters that are talking like no one has read X-Men and Excalibur, when we know damn good and well that WE ALL HAVE. No one is going to make any headway here. No one's opinion is going to change, no matter what facts are presented to make their case. Why bother?

Besides, after Astonishing #14 comes out today this will all be a moot point anyway. :D


I'll have to go back and re-read the TPB but I'm pretty sure that DPS outright stated that Petey was raised an atheist.

So, yeah, I agree. Apart from the bridesmaid that is, I think it should be Rachel or Storm.

You're right. I just reread Uncanny Annual #4, and Peter does indeed state that he was raised Atheist. Of course that doesn't mean that he doesn't have some sort of belief in God presently. Whedon seems to think that Peter believes in God and the hereafter anyways....

Ideally, Both Illyana and Ray should stand up with Kitty on her wedding day with Peter. Her friendships with both run deeper than most. I also think that Ororo and Logan should be the ones to walk with her down the aisle, since in a Jewish ceremony, the bride usually walks with both parents.

It could happen!

[xakko]

Jesus Christ, do you know how badly I dislike it when a thread degenerates into a Kete vs. Kiotr slugfest?? It brings out the worst in some people. There are some posters that are talking like no one has read X-Men and Excalibur, when we know damn good and well that WE ALL HAVE. No one is going to make any headway here. No one's opinion is going to change, no matter what facts are presented to make their case. Why bother?

Besides, after Astonishing #14 comes out today this will all be a moot point anyway. :D
agreed.

still, c'mon, i find it completely oblivious to think that the Colossus of Uncanny #325 bears any relation to the one in Excalibur #92, his next appearance. it doesn't jive, it can't jive, and only Ellis fans seem to think that it makes any sense.

[Amokitty]

agreed.

still, c'mon, i find it completely oblivious to think that the Colossus of Uncanny #325 bears any relation to the one in Excalibur #92, his next appearance. it doesn't jive, it can't jive, and only Ellis fans seem to think that it makes any sense.

I agree with you too, Xak - completely. :)

I think the facts you brought up earlier speak for themselves. Unfortunately this thread has drifted into the same old, sorry excuse of a 'who's the better man for Kitty' debate. I'm finding more and more that some posters take this to a not too civil level, and they try to make it stop being fun to post here.

Since this thread doesn't even concern Wisdom, I really fail to understand why Kete posters are on the attack. Sour grapes, perhaps? :p :D

*Goes back to sighing over Astonishing #14*

[xakko]

*Goes back to sighing over Astonishing #14*
*flashes a REALLY big grin.

[d newton]

I'm puzzled why the Kiotr fans are getting annoyed at 1 writer doing 1 issue when 1/2 of their particular paring hasn't been mentioned in 80 issues up to that one of the title?

[punisher_ryu]

i liked her with lance in evo.

[Amokitty]

I'm puzzled why the Kiotr fans are getting annoyed at 1 writer doing 1 issue when 1/2 of their particular paring hasn't been mentioned in 80 issues up to that one of the title?

You're missing the point. Trashing Colossus in Excalibur #92 doesn't have a blessed THING to do with Kitty and he not being an official item during that time.

It's taking a character that a writer basically knows nothing about and then turning that character into something completely different than the previous 20 yrs. of canon made that character to be. Just to make the writer's new character seem like the better man in comparison. Ellis can be a fine writer. He messed up badly here though. That issue never made sense. No character research was done here. None.

It's not that I couldn't accept Kitty geniunely getting over Peter and moving on. It's that Peter was turned into a lunatic for no justifiable reason. Did Ellis want to create romantic tension for dramatic effect? Fine. There could have been any number of ways a writer of his caliber could have achieved this. Why write about someone he (at the time) knew so little of?? It came off sloppy and disappointing.

Comic book writers are supposed to make you believe in their characters and the way they write them. They develop their fan base that way. Both Peter and Kitty's behavior (on occasion) felt way OOC. Kitty jumping into bed with a man she hardly knew? Very hard to believe given her past behavior. Wisdom existed for only 4 issues before Kitty took the plunge, so to speak. I know that Ellis could've done better than this. The lack of effort really shows. THAT'S what people (not just Kiotr fans) find upsetting.

[gloveman]

Not quite on topic but this thread got me all fired up for my sketch pad and I thought I'd throw you Piotr/Kitty fans this...(try to ignore the background smudges please :p)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h211/gloveman001/Copyofxmw.jpg
(couldn't think of an idea for a preist- a CC look alike perhaps?)

As you can guess wouldn't mind seeing Piotr and Kitty get married but like Faded said- it'd depend on the writer. Mind you I only really got in to comics when Kitty and Wisdom had broken up so I haven't really read enough Kitty/Wisdom stories.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

You're missing the point. Trashing Colossus in Excalibur #92 doesn't have a blessed THING to do with Kitty and he not being an official item during that time.

Trashing him, no. I think that Excalibur #92 is very important though in understanding the character. Piotr was very mixed up at the time, and would probably admit himself that thumping Wisdom was a mistake. But while Kitty's feelings were pretty plain in this issue Piotr's were harder to pin down.

I think you can chiefly read this two ways:

1) Piotr wasn't really still in love with Kitty, but more so needed something to give his confused life purpose, after leaving the Accolytes. Therefore he pictured a time in his head that he was happy, and tried to recreate it, hoping that would fix everything.

or

2) He genuinely did still have very strong feelings for her, but the concept that Kitty had well and truly moved on hadn't even come into his head.

I personally believe the former, first and foremost, but also partially that the second was also the case.

It's taking a character that a writer basically knows nothing about and then turning that character into something completely different than the previous 20 yrs. of canon made that character to be. Just to make the writer's new character seem like the better man in comparison. Ellis can be a fine writer. He messed up badly here though. That issue never made sense. No character research was done here. None.

Is I feel a very unfair over-generalisation. In the case of Kitty anybody who had read Excalibur through for the years she had been with Excalibur, and away from the X-Men, would be likely to argue against that. Kitty had changed a lot from the girl who was left behind from the X-Men. She was a lot more independent and a lot more of team player than a side character. She grew up a lot by the time Davis was writing her, let alone Lobdell or Ellis after him. All Ellis did was move her on in sensible direction.

It's not that I couldn't accept Kitty geniunely getting over Peter and moving on. It's that Peter was turned into a lunatic for no justifiable reason.

Piotr did go nuts, yes. It was kind of out of character, but from the perspective of the story Piotr arrives as a desperate man. He's lost his sister, his brother, he can't go home to Russia. But after the Accolytes he doesn't feel he can go back to the X-Men. He's lost, confused, and doesn't know where to turn to.

So he pictures that one time he was happy, with Kitty. Kitty loved him, right? She tried to persuade him to leave The Accolytes. She must still have feelings for him.

So with nowhere else to go, gets on a plane and makes his way to the Outer Hebrides, to Muir Island, in his confused state hoping that Kitty will fix everything. Only when he gets there he finds her in tye arms of another man. He goes nuts, and thumps him! Heck I can understand that. It was a moment of madness. He's pinned all that he has on this one last chance, and it hasn't come off.

And when he's cooled down he knows he's made a mistake. Piotr joined Excalibur for a fresh start, to try and make ammends not just for Kitty, but for himself.

And I actually think that Ellis dealt with this period in Piotr's life pretty well. It was done pretty sensitively after his debut, and he actually did give a shit about the character. Muh more than writers in the 5 years preceding that, and certainly more than the writers who had him afterwards. They killed him off for god's sake. In one of the worst story periods I have read in the 2o years I've followed the X-men.

Did Ellis want to create romantic tension for dramatic effect? Fine. There could have been any number of ways a writer of his caliber could have achieved this. Why write about someone he (at the time) knew so little of?? It came off sloppy and disappointing.

I totally disagree. Kitty came across as very witty, intelligent and very much in character, during this period. Simply because she wasn't being ewritten as a wet, and naive little child. I see very little difference in the way that Ellis wrote her Excalibur to the way that Davis wrote her in Excalibur. Her and Wiusdom played off each other well. Wisdom actually often came off as a foil FOR Kitty.

Comic book writers are supposed to make you believe in their characters and the way they write them. They develop their fan base that way. Both Peter and Kitty's behavior (on occasion) felt way OOC. Kitty jumping into bed with a man she hardly knew? Very hard to believe given her past behavior. Wisdom existed for only 4 issues before Kitty took the plunge, so to speak. I know that Ellis could've done better than this. The lack of effort really shows. THAT'S what people (not just Kiotr fans) find upsetting.

Now we never actually saw them having sex, did we? If that's the way you choose to interpret it that 's your own business... :rolleyes:

Yes Wisdom had only existed for four issues, but the two were thrown into some serious situations together. They kissed. Big deal. It happens. I don't think it's out of character, and the dialogue was good.

This was far from a laqck of effort run. Excalibur as a team worked extremely well under Ellis. I really think that your view of Piotr and Kitty from the early 80s is the only way that you can picture them, and you're really not going to accept that things might have changed in the 10 years that Kitty was not an X-Man.

Regardless of the quality of the writing, which I and many others, find to be of a very high quality.

[Wagner Time]

It's taking a character that a writer basically knows nothing about and then turning that character into something completely different than the previous 20 yrs. of canon made that character to be. Just to make the writer's new character seem like the better man in comparison. Ellis can be a fine writer. He messed up badly here though. That issue never made sense. No character research was done here. None.

20 years? Ten of those years she was in Britain, and had nothing to do with Piotr. Or showed any interest.

I really cannot see how you can say Ellis did a bad job. He did more for the development of Kurt, Kitty and Piotr than any other writer in the last decade.

I think your fond memory of the Kitty/Piotr relatonship from Claremon'ts early days may be clouding your judgement.

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

Is this still going on?

Amokitty did you ever read, Excalibur? You're saying that Ellis ignored 20 years of continuity for Kitty is bollocks.

During the whole of her Excalibur time, before Piotr turned up he'd been mentioned like twice in total, and nhever in the context of that kind of love for him.

The way I see it, those who want to see Kity and Piotr together are usualyy those who can only see them as they were before Secret Wars, and can't accept that things moved on.

I hate all this retro need to put them together again, almost as much as Marvel not acknowledgeing that they grew up, and actually developed. It's boring to retreaed the same old path, and so far I'm still waiting for Whedon to do something NEW between them.

And more precisely back to topic, why do they need to get married, right now? They've only just re-met.

[CMBMOOL]

Well did anyone see Astonishing X-men #14 this week ? :p

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Well did anyone see Astonishing X-men #14 this week ? :p

It's sitting on my doorstep at home. Wont be able to read until I finish work, so don't spoil it! :D

[Amokitty]

Not quite on topic but this thread got me all fired up for my sketch pad and I thought I'd throw you Piotr/Kitty fans this...(try to ignore the background smudges please :p)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h211/gloveman001/Copyofxmw.jpg
(couldn't think of an idea for a preist- a CC look alike perhaps?)

As you can guess wouldn't mind seeing Piotr and Kitty get married but like Faded said- it'd depend on the writer. Mind you I only really got in to comics when Kitty and Wisdom had broken up so I haven't really read enough Kitty/Wisdom stories.

Wow. Wonderful picture! Nice details... Thanks to your drawing, I can envision the entire thing!!! :)

On behalf of Kitty/Peter shippers everywhere, Thank You! Fantastic work.

[Amokitty]

For the Kete Fans on the march:

I never focused on Kitty's personality in my previous post until almost the very end. The 20 years of canon I'm speaking of in my message to d newton, that you're responding to, is about Colossus not Kitty. Kitty hadn't existed that long yet. So instead of ripping my post over Kitty, try to kindly read the paragraph AGAIN. I'm talking about Peter here, and why Ellis made Wisdom to be the better man in comparison to PETER.

As for the previous post questioning why Peter and Kitty should get married RIGHT NOW? *sigh* No one EVER said that. We ALL said wait a while first. Did you actually READ any of these messages? And that's why I'm done responding to this thread. People are questioning whether I've actually read Excalibur, when the fact is, they can't even bother to read my post. When people stop listening there's no point in continuing.

And someone thinks MY judgement is clouded....? I smell hypocrisy here....

This thread was never about Wisdom, and it's been hijacked long enough.



*Off to read Astonishing X-Men #14 again with a happy $#!% eating grin on my face.....*

[d newton]

It's that Peter was turned into a lunatic for no justifiable reason.

Say what? Reread Excalibur 92, Amo Kitty - the reason was there.
Colossus: (And, And, I can't take anymore, and you have taken my Katya from me -- you took her away!).
He says this before and during the first punch on Mr Wisdom.

[xakko]

Say what? Reread Excalibur 92, Amo Kitty - the reason was there.
Colossus: (And, And, I can't take anymore, and you have taken my Katya from me -- you took her away!).
He says this before and during the first punch on Mr Wisdom.
and where the hell did that come from? what issue leads up to that? in #71, it's Kitty, not Piotr who shows the deepest emotion. Why did Rasputin the acolyte trust Kitty? Because she was the one who was caring for Illyana when he couldn't. Not that at the time anything he said be of complete rational sense because he was being treating for brain damage. That was cured in that issue.

After that, I challenge you to show one irrational thought from him- until #92. Returning to the Acolytes as he had promised? A man of honor would do so- Logan and Kitty would understand. Defending Neophyte against the wrath of Exodus? Telling Scott and Jean (and calling them "my friends") that they should not have come to Avalon while Exodus and Holocaust were wrecking it? Protecting the helpless Magneto when Avalon fell? Fighting with the X-men against Gene Nation? Kissing Callisto passionately, for old times sake? Or, if you wish to follow the Chronology Project, working with them and Clan Destine against that threat?

Because that's what is happening right before Excalibur #92. He isn't crazy. He isn't obsessing. Yes, he's experienced incredible loss, but he's coping. He already knows he needs to redeem himself before he could return to the X-men, as he tells Ororo. There's no mention of Kitty.

My bet is Ellis didn't know he was that the Colossus that was yelling at people hitting Bishop and betraying the X-men was not the one he was bringing into his comic. Or he didn't care. And by making Piotr a loner, an awfull Russian stereotype wasn't character advancement, it was devolution.

That is why fans of the character tend to have a problem with the issue. It doesn't make sense. Not in continuity, not in terms of the character of Piotr Rasputin. It was there solely to garner sympathy for Pete Wisdom. And for some people, it clearly worked.

[d newton]

My bet is Ellis didn't know he was that the Colossus that was yelling at people hitting Bishop and betraying the X-men was not the one he was bringing into his comic. Or he didn't care. And by making Piotr a loner, an awful Russian stereotype wasn't character advancement, it was devolution.

You want to e-mail him to ask why he didn't care or shall I do that?

That is why fans of the character tend to have a problem with the issue. It doesn't make sense. Not in continuity, not in terms of the character of Piotr Rasputin. It was there solely to garner sympathy for Pete Wisdom. And for some people, it clearly worked.
I'm a fan, so why should I have problems with the issue? :D

[Babylon23]

You know, I don't want to see Kitty with either Pete Wisdom or Colossus. It's seems like her only reason for even being in Astonishing is so Whedon can get her and Peter back together.

Personally, I preferred what CC was doing with her in Mechanix and X-Treme. She'd moved on from both relationships, and was establishing her own identity.

Too often, character are defined purely by their romance with another character (see Rogue and Gambit over the past 15 years). I'd much prefer to see Kitty stand on her own, as her own character.

[shades of eternity]

If whedon is writting the relationship, expect them to suffer immesurably before he even hints at success.

and then expect it to fall apart badly and/or extreme tradgety.

Joss makes his favorite characters suffer.

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

My bet is Ellis didn't know he was that the Colossus that was yelling at people hitting Bishop and betraying the X-men was not the one he was bringing into his comic. Or he didn't care. And by making Piotr a loner, an awfull Russian stereotype wasn't character advancement, it was devolution.

Russian Stereotype? Tossy-cock!

In fact under Ellis there was even less of the stereotypical national phrases which Claremont uised to stick in to both his and Nightcrawler's speech.

Ellis tried to resolve the niggling plot points and move forward. He didn't write Colossus as just another character in the background, which is more than most do. How can you complain against that?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

You know, I don't want to see Kitty with either Pete Wisdom or Colossus. It's seems like her only reason for even being in Astonishing is so Whedon can get her and Peter back together.

Personally, I preferred what CC was doing with her in Mechanix and X-Treme. She'd moved on from both relationships, and was establishing her own identity.

Too often, character are defined purely by their romance with another character (see Rogue and Gambit over the past 15 years). I'd much prefer to see Kitty stand on her own, as her own character.

Kind of agree with you there, Babylon. I have always prefered Kitty as a standalone character. It rare that we see her this way, but at least in Excalibur she was independent throughout the majority of its run. Even with Wisdom she was still very much an individual rather than just a couple.

Have just read Astnishing #14 and have to say I really enjoyed it, and also like where Whedon is going with the two characters. It also provided me with one of the funniest scenes I 've seen in a while. Won't spoil it for eople. You'll know what I'm talking about when you read it... :D

At least it seems that Whedon isn't doing too bad by them. Nobody has written either caracter particularly well in a long time.

[Rachel Grey]

Not quite on topic but this thread got me all fired up for my sketch pad and I thought I'd throw you Piotr/Kitty fans this...(try to ignore the background smudges please :p)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h211/gloveman001/Copyofxmw.jpg
(couldn't think of an idea for a preist- a CC look alike perhaps?)

As you can guess wouldn't mind seeing Piotr and Kitty get married but like Faded said- it'd depend on the writer. Mind you I only really got in to comics when Kitty and Wisdom had broken up so I haven't really read enough Kitty/Wisdom stories.

Nice work! I particularly like the facial expressions :D

[scapebabe]

This is pretty and all, but isn't Kitty Jewish and Piotr an atheist? Kitty would get married under a chuppah, or if she wanted to compromise for Piotr, they'd more likely have a civil ceremony. Just sayin'. I am admittedly a detail nut.

[CMBMOOL]

If whedon is writting the relationship, expect them to suffer immesurably before he even hints at success.

and then expect it to fall apart badly and/or extreme tradgety.

Joss makes his favorite characters suffer.


I don't believe that can happen in Astonshing. :) Right ? :(

[Kirayoshi]

Not quite on topic but this thread got me all fired up for my sketch pad and I thought I'd throw you Piotr/Kitty fans this...(try to ignore the background smudges please )Nice pic, Gloveman. One quibble: why the cross on the podium? Kitty's Jewish, Piotr's usually depicted as an athiest/agonstic(although sometimes I more likely suspect he's a non-demoninational deist), there should be a Star of David on the cloth. Any wedding between these two should be a traditional Jewish wedding, complete with veil over Kitty's face and Piotr breaking the glass under his heel.

[gloveman]

Nice pic, Gloveman. One quibble: why the cross on the podium? Kitty's Jewish, Piotr's usually depicted as an athiest/agonstic(although sometimes I more likely suspect he's a non-demoninational deist), there should be a Star of David on the cloth. Any wedding between these two should be a traditional Jewish wedding, complete with veil over Kitty's face and Piotr breaking the glass under his heel.

Haha. That actually occured to me before- guess I wasn't thinking about it when I drew it. I'll change it and maybe re-post later.

[CMBMOOL]

I kind of agree. This was a real turning point for both of them. When they were together they were both still kids. But in this issue this was two adults. Kitty had grown up, but Piotr was clinging to to that memory of his past, largely because it was one of the last times he was actually happy.

Without Kitty he had at least had Illyana. And when she went he at least had the X-Men. But when he walked out on them he went to the Accolytes. And after that he really had nothing. So he rant to Kitty trying to drag up this image of the past. But things had changed.

It was a really important story. For both of them.


Then explain the issues of Kitty trying to get over Peter's death ? :(

[HellFrost]

Then explain the issues of Kitty trying to get over Peter's death ? :(

The way I look at it is if someone I used to be very close too died, I'd still need a lot of time to get over it. Especially since I don't get over death very easily at all. I don't believe Kitty seems like the type of person who gets over death easily or quickly either, imo.

[CMBMOOL]

Trashing him, no. I think that Excalibur #92 is very important though in understanding the character. Piotr was very mixed up at the time, and would probably admit himself that thumping Wisdom was a mistake. But while Kitty's feelings were pretty plain in this issue Piotr's were harder to pin down.

I think you can chiefly read this two ways:

1) Piotr wasn't really still in love with Kitty, but more so needed something to give his confused life purpose, after leaving the Accolytes. Therefore he pictured a time in his head that he was happy, and tried to recreate it, hoping that would fix everything.

or

2) He genuinely did still have very strong feelings for her, but the concept that Kitty had well and truly moved on hadn't even come into his head.

I personally believe the former, first and foremost, but also partially that the second was also the case.



Is I feel a very unfair over-generalisation. In the case of Kitty anybody who had read Excalibur through for the years she had been with Excalibur, and away from the X-Men, would be likely to argue against that. Kitty had changed a lot from the girl who was left behind from the X-Men. She was a lot more independent and a lot more of team player than a side character. She grew up a lot by the time Davis was writing her, let alone Lobdell or Ellis after him. All Ellis did was move her on in sensible direction.



Piotr did go nuts, yes. It was kind of out of character, but from the perspective of the story Piotr arrives as a desperate man. He's lost his sister, his brother, he can't go home to Russia. But after the Accolytes he doesn't feel he can go back to the X-Men. He's lost, confused, and doesn't know where to turn to.

So he pictures that one time he was happy, with Kitty. Kitty loved him, right? She tried to persuade him to leave The Accolytes. She must still have feelings for him.

So with nowhere else to go, gets on a plane and makes his way to the Outer Hebrides, to Muir Island, in his confused state hoping that Kitty will fix everything. Only when he gets there he finds her in tye arms of another man. He goes nuts, and thumps him! Heck I can understand that. It was a moment of madness. He's pinned all that he has on this one last chance, and it hasn't come off.

And when he's cooled down he knows he's made a mistake. Piotr joined Excalibur for a fresh start, to try and make ammends not just for Kitty, but for himself.

And I actually think that Ellis dealt with this period in Piotr's life pretty well. It was done pretty sensitively after his debut, and he actually did give a shit about the character. Muh more than writers in the 5 years preceding that, and certainly more than the writers who had him afterwards. They killed him off for god's sake. In one of the worst story periods I have read in the 2o years I've followed the X-men.



I totally disagree. Kitty came across as very witty, intelligent and very much in character, during this period. Simply because she wasn't being ewritten as a wet, and naive little child. I see very little difference in the way that Ellis wrote her Excalibur to the way that Davis wrote her in Excalibur. Her and Wiusdom played off each other well. Wisdom actually often came off as a foil FOR Kitty.



Now we never actually saw them having sex, did we? If that's the way you choose to interpret it that 's your own business... :rolleyes:

Yes Wisdom had only existed for four issues, but the two were thrown into some serious situations together. They kissed. Big deal. It happens. I don't think it's out of character, and the dialogue was good.

This was far from a laqck of effort run. Excalibur as a team worked extremely well under Ellis. I really think that your view of Piotr and Kitty from the early 80s is the only way that you can picture them, and you're really not going to accept that things might have changed in the 10 years that Kitty was not an X-Man.

Regardless of the quality of the writing, which I and many others, find to be of a very high quality.

Wow, nice in-depth theory on Peter's time in Excaliber. :D

[CMBMOOL]

Now this is for all of those X-fans who may have some doubts about the Kitty/Colossus marriage... Well think about this for a moment:

IN the alternate realities shown within the Exiles or the alternate lives shown within the times of AoA or DoFP, they showed that Kitty and Colossus belonged together.

I mean if we can have a Universe where Spider-man's daughter is alive and is part of the next generation of Marvel Heroes or a Universe where Ultimate version Shadowcat is dating the Ultimate version of Spider-man who is also known as Peter....Parker, then maybe we could have a world where at least someone can get a happy ending in this dark distrust worthy world we call the 616 Universe.

Okay, maybe I'm going overboard a bit, but consider this: would any Marvel fan rather have a story that would make sense or a story that is often hyped up and it turns out to be a let down ?

Once you have answer that then maybe we can discuss this topic futher. :p