Is X-Men Too Difficult to Write?

[Tobias March]

If you read over the threads on this board there are many complaints about the title. Writers and whole creative teams change frequently, yet the gripes remain the same.

Editorial interference.

Poorly drawn characters.

Sub-plots that drag on for ages.

Anti-climactic crossovers.

There's quite a few of them. The impression I get is that the comic is like a runaway train. No one really knows what it's about (a superhero comic? a metaphor for racism/prejudice? evolution? youth culture?). The focus on any one of a number of themes shifts and changes repeatedly.

Then you have different fans supporting the various writers over the years: Claremont, Morrison, Lobdell, Nicieza etc. A lot of the reasons some love Claremont for exactly, are the very same reasons others hate his stories. Some see it as slow, well-paced plot development. Others Lost style meandering, with endless plot hooks thrown up as more grist for the mill.

But no matter how different any of these writers' styles are, in the end the title remains unaffected. Perhaps this is due to editorial mandate, but it seems to me that the X-Men is just such a broad (and not in a good way - I'm talking no defined boundries) idea for a comic that it's difficult for any creative team to put their own definitive stamp on the team. No matter how defensive fans may become about how a certain writer is treating their creations - it's almost impossible to actually cause a big enough dent in its long continuity.

What do ya reckon?

[DDM]

I believe the X-Men franchise is largely misunderstood from the editors. This began with editor, Bob Harras, who forced Chris Claremont off Uncanny X-Men after 17 years of writing the book. Harras also hijacked many of Claremont's plots & diluted them. For instance, Harras did not want the Shadow King to kill Xavier. Harras also wanted Magneto back in the villain role. Harras did not want Wolverine to go insane & become a villain. Harras refused Chris Claremont to allow him to write both Uncanny X-Men & X-Men, yet Scott Lobdell would write both books a few years later.

Furthermore, many of the editors after Bob Harras followed his model of not understanding the franchise, but still control the franchise they severely did not "get."
Mark Powers, Andrew Lis, Mike Marts, Sean Ryan, & Nick Lowe are but a few of the X-editors who a piloting a ship without a compass.

[Badger Boy]

Because X-Men fans are the most passionate comic book fans in the world, it seems that writing the X-Men would be a nightmare. But I think it would be the best comic book writing job in the world, because you get to play with the best character universe in all of comics. If I were a writer for Marvel and they told me I could pick any book I wanted to write, I would pick Uncanny X-Men. I know I would face more criticism than any other writer in the business, but Uncanny X-Men is the holy grail of comic books, and I would love writing every minute of my heavily criticised run.

[Brian M.]

Bob H. not wanting to make Wolverine go evil and crazy was a good move. That'd be stupid to me. I'm glad he made that decision.

I don't think X-Men are that hard to write. Respect the history of past stories and characters. Give us a reasonable story, a good reason why what is happening is happening, some good character interaction, some personal growth for someone, a good reasonable enemey. A good conclusion and some kind of after effect for what just happened. It's not too bad. I'm a simple comic reader, give me that and I'll love you like a dog.

[Marty4Magik]

Editorial interference.
This is not always a bad thing.
With the current editors it is, because they don't know shit about the X-characters.

It is possible for editorial interference to result in a beter story. Jim Shooter for example made a decision that was for the better and gave us one of the best X-stories ever; the death of Jean at the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga.

[Jake V]

Hard to write?

Freakin' Scott Lobdell wrote the X-Men for years.

How hard could it be?

[Volk1]

But no matter how different any of these writers' styles are, in the end the title remains unaffected. Perhaps this is due to editorial mandate, but it seems to me that the X-Men is just such a broad (and not in a good way - I'm talking no defined boundries) idea for a comic that it's difficult for any creative team to put their own definitive stamp on the team. No matter how defensive fans may become about how a certain writer is treating their creations - it's almost impossible to actually cause a big enough dent in its long continuity

Editorial mandate is of the utmost power at play here. They decide where the stories go, how it affects the present, and if they will continue to play with it in the future. Because of this, it's going to take a certain writer to overcome the restrictions that the editors imply. Look at Morrison. His run was something fresh and different. How does it stand today? Retconned, retconned, retconned. And who decides that, to just basically destroy someones creative story and meld into something different. That's BS. Especially when it was a great run by very good writer who connected with the X-Men. Compare that to who was writing Uncanny at the time - Austen. Why in the hell would the editors let him write at least half of those stories and get them published is beyond me. Morbid fascination? Lack of care for characters? Maybe they just wanted to see how bad it could get and still make money with anything labeled X (which has proven true).

There is a status quo. But, to beat it, a writer must have an uncanny *pun intended* knack for being in love with the characters to truly write a great story. I keep asking myself why in the world Milligan failed? He's a great talent. The X-Men just didn't fit him. He's an off-shoot type of guy, better situated in a certain genre. So' I'd say, YES the X-Men can be a hard book to write if 1) you don't get the characters 2)you don't know how to handle more than a couple of MAIN characters that are needed on a team-book.

I think the success of Whedon comes down to two factors as well 1)he's a great sci-fi writer, he loves the genre 2)he has the talent to juggle numerous characters around and makes them all participants on almost equal footing (despite Colossus most noticeably lacksing so far). Yet, he will continue to succeed because he's X-talent. Or maybe cause he's a name and everybody on his jock, fuck I don't know......

The other things, imo, don't matter all that much such as crossover, sub-plots that drag. Know the history between certain characters, know how each reacts in a certain situation, create an ambince between the team that has them connecting on a cooperative-level. A certain comraderie amongst friends. Play with emotions but don;t go overboard (Crazy Lorna)

Brubaker is one of my fave writers. I've followed him since his days on Sleeper at Wildstorm. But the thing about him, is that he's always been a one-man type of guy moreso than a team guy: Sleeper, Daredevil, Cap America, Cat Woman compared to Authority and Gotham Central. He's golden with the one-man hero. I didn't read enough Authority or Gotham Central to have an opinion about his team-talent. But, ever since I found Sleeper, I;ve always wanted Bru & X-Men together. Now I get my chance to see if this tandem can provide something X-Men has been lacking for some time; a sense of being....

[Novaya Havoc]

It is not the editors. Jesus. It's the shareholders.

Company's largest cash cow = fewer marketing risks.

Which is why we get the endless cycle of Jean, Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm, Rogue, Wolverine, Jean, Cyclops, Wolverine. And, of course, that household name of Chris Claremont (*gag*).

They'll never do anything truly ballsy with the X-Men, so what's the point? Morrison was the closest we got, and Whedon is pretty good. But neither of them will be able to really work the X-Men into something fresh.

Ultimate is the closest we'll get to something fresh, sadly enough.

[FanboyStranger]

The biggest problem with the creative quality in the X-franchise is the success of the X-franchise itself. What I mean by that is that the financial success of the X-books favors a middle-of-the-road approach that does not shake up the status quo, which could alienate longtime buyers. If you were to ask most writers, artists, and even editors what book they would want to take over if they were able to put aside financial considerations, they will almost universally choose a low selling book. Since the stakes are lower, anything goes creatively, and that's how we've ended up with classics like Goodwin and Simonson's Manhunter, Moore's Swamp Thing, and yes, Claremont's X-men. When you look at the X-men up to, say, 200 for arguments sake, you see some real groundbreaking work. Why? Because Claremont and his co-conspirators had taken a concept no one really knew how to make work-- it was running re-prints before Giant-Size X-men 1, for crying out loud-- and threw everything and the kitchen sink at it. It worked, and the X-Men became the Marvel franchise. But success in any creative medium is often a double edged sword. Now that you've achieved success, how do you hold onto it? Well, the easy answer is to do what brought you there and to avoid upsetting the apple cart. Consequently, with higher stakes, you take less chances to alienate your fan base. If no one's reading your book to begin with, then turning Jean Grey into an insane cosmic mass-murderer isn't going to send Jean Grey fans packing; it can only go up, right? But when you're Marvel's premier franchise, you're a true financial success story, and the franchise is expanding to three other books in a relatively short period of time, you have to stay even-kneeled to continue your success. That's where the long decline of the X-franchise began-- books were put out monthly with little to no change in the status quo with ongoing buildups to what were supposed to be "era-defining events" that never really panned out the way they should have, the few changes that did happen during these events were generally reworked within a relatively short period of time because they upset some fans (look at history of Colossus, for example), and although the talent was certainly there, they were encouraged to go on with the same kind of stories, deeply embedded in the storied Claremont continuity with no real surprises. And that's why the talent leaves frustrated.
Even Grant Morrison's run-- and I am a huge Morrison fan-- was just putting a fresh new gloss on old concepts. Look at the trajectory of his run: Sentinels, Imperial Guard, Weapon X/Wolverine's past, New Mutants, Magneto returns, Days of Future Past. Yes, the new concept of Sublime ran behind everything, but its revelation was botched in his final arc-- I'm throughly convinced only Grant knew what it was truly supposed to be and overestimated everyone else-- and completely decimated in subsequent issues by lesser writers. Of course, Grant had already left packing by then.

[DDM]

Bob H. not wanting to make Wolverine go evil and crazy was a good move. That'd be stupid to me. I'm glad he made that decision.

I don't think X-Men are that hard to write. Respect the history of past stories and characters. Give us a reasonable story, a good reason why what is happening is happening, some good character interaction, some personal growth for someone, a good reasonable enemey. A good conclusion and some kind of after effect for what just happened. It's not too bad. I'm a simple comic reader, give me that and I'll love you like a dog.

Chris Claremont's Hand story was published years later in Wolverine's Enemy of the State, but it came out of nowhere; whereas, Chris Claremont had been slowly building for a few years about Wolverine's healing factor losing much of its power & him slowly losing his mind (as shown when the spectres of Carol Danvers & Nick Fury appears).

Wolverine would be a Hand assassin for a year's time, but eventually return to the X-Men. However, Marvel Girl would dump Cyclops for Wolverine.

[Brian M.]

Chris Claremont's Hand story was published years later in Wolverine's Enemy of the State, but it came out of nowhere; whereas, Chris Claremont had been slowly building for a few years about Wolverine's healing factor losing much of its power & him slowly losing his mind (as shown when the spectres of Carol Danvers & Nick Fury appears).

Wolverine would be a Hand assassin for a year's time, but eventually return to the X-Men. However, Marvel Girl would dump Cyclops for Wolverine.

Yea that's why I think it was a stupid idea. Just becuase Claremont thought it up doesn't mean it was a good idea.

[FieryBalrog]

The biggest problem with the creative quality in the X-franchise is the success of the X-franchise itself. What I mean by that is that the financial success of the X-books favors a middle-of-the-road approach that does not shake up the status quo, which could alienate longtime buyers. If you were to ask most writers, artists, and even editors what book they would want to take over if they were able to put aside financial considerations, they will almost universally choose a low selling book. Since the stakes are lower, anything goes creatively, and that's how we've ended up with classics like Goodwin and Simonson's Manhunter, Moore's Swamp Thing, and yes, Claremont's X-men. When you look at the X-men up to, say, 200 for arguments sake, you see some real groundbreaking work. Why? Because Claremont and his co-conspirators had taken a concept no one really knew how to make work-- it was running re-prints before Giant-Size X-men 1, for crying out loud-- and threw everything and the kitchen sink at it. It worked, and the X-Men became the Marvel franchise. But success in any creative medium is often a double edged sword. Now that you've achieved success, how do you hold onto it? Well, the easy answer is to do what brought you there and to avoid upsetting the apple cart. Consequently, with higher stakes, you take less chances to alienate your fan base. If no one's reading your book to begin with, then turning Jean Grey into an insane cosmic mass-murderer isn't going to send Jean Grey fans packing; it can only go up, right? But when you're Marvel's premier franchise, you're a true financial success story, and the franchise is expanding to three other books in a relatively short period of time, you have to stay even-kneeled to continue your success. That's where the long decline of the X-franchise began-- books were put out monthly with little to no change in the status quo with ongoing buildups to what were supposed to be "era-defining events" that never really panned out the way they should have, the few changes that did happen during these events were generally reworked within a relatively short period of time because they upset some fans (look at history of Colossus, for example), and although the talent was certainly there, they were encouraged to go on with the same kind of stories, deeply embedded in the storied Claremont continuity with no real surprises. And that's why the talent leaves frustrated.
Even Grant Morrison's run-- and I am a huge Morrison fan-- was just putting a fresh new gloss on old concepts. Look at the trajectory of his run: Sentinels, Imperial Guard, Weapon X/Wolverine's past, New Mutants, Magneto returns, Days of Future Past. Yes, the new concept of Sublime ran behind everything, but its revelation was botched in his final arc-- I'm throughly convinced only Grant knew what it was truly supposed to be and overestimated everyone else-- and completely decimated in subsequent issues by lesser writers. Of course, Grant had already left packing by then.

/applause :cool:

[streator]

i don't think the x-men, as characters, are necessarily hard to write.
i think it's hard for writers to follow someone (claremont) who wrote about the characters for such a long time.
therefore, it's hard for some writers to make the x-men appealing to certain parts of the franchise's fanbase who tend to only think of/want to read about the characters as claremont wrote them.

edit/
i'm personally not one of those fans.

[Xany Kaos]

Whether or not I like them, I have no end of sympathy for the writers, because no matter what they do, somebody's pissed. They can have character growth, and people will whine that they changed(read: ruined) the character. They can bring a character or group back to its roots, and people will complain that the plot is standing still. They can put their own beliefs in and people will complain about preachiness or about character rape, or they can put nothing of themselves in and people will complain about how the comic has no soul. They can try to fix past mistakes, and people will froth with rage at the disregard for continuity.

And that's just the fans.

Hell, I'd rather deal with fans than editors. I am amazed that any writing gets done at all.



Not saying that I like the writing of late. I'll whine with the best of 'em. But I do have sympathy for the writers.

[fishtaco]

I believe the X-Men franchise is largely misunderstood from the editors. This began with editor, Bob Harras, who forced Chris Claremont off Uncanny X-Men after 17 years of writing the book. Harras also hijacked many of Claremont's plots & diluted them. For instance, Harras did not want the Shadow King to kill Xavier. Harras also wanted Magneto back in the villain role. Harras did not want Wolverine to go insane & become a villain. Harras refused Chris Claremont to allow him to write both Uncanny X-Men & X-Men, yet Scott Lobdell would write both books a few years later.

Furthermore, many of the editors after Bob Harras followed his model of not understanding the franchise, but still control the franchise they severely did not "get."
Mark Powers, Andrew Lis, Mike Marts, Sean Ryan, & Nick Lowe are but a few of the X-editors who a piloting a ship without a compass.That pretty much sums it up. A lot of plots from Claremont, Liefeld, Simonson, etc were stolen by Harras and corrupted with his bad tastes. Scott Lobdell, a comedian, came in and butchered the title further. Characters were written extremely, extremely poorly (Professor X, Archangel, Cyclops, Mystique, Jean Grey, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Emma Frost, Magma, Wolfsbane, Storm, Colossus, Magik, Rogue, Gambit, Phoenix III, Magneto, Gateway, Psylocke, Cable, Juggernaut, Mystique, Sabretooth, Cerise, Captain Britain are all good examples. A number of excellent villains that Claremont, David, Simonson, and others planned as major threats throughout the 90's and beyond were written awfully (Shadow King, Fenris, Mojo, Spiral, Robert Kelly and Sebastian Shaw, Selene, Lady Deathstrke, Exodus, Mats'uo Tsuryaba, Stryfe, Fabian Cortez, Apocalypse, Trevor Fitzroy, and Shinobi Shaw are all good examples) Old and outdated status quos returned and plagued the books (Magneto a villain AGAIN, Xavier back at the school teaching AGAIN and crippled AGAIN, X-men back at the mansion AGAIN, Scott and Jean together AGAIN, original X-Men as X-Men AGAIN...). Plots were stolen from the real writers and were turned into awful stories (Wildboys into Upstarts, Kelly/Shaw into Creed/Brickman, The Twelve, death of Xavier by the Shadow King to Legion Quest, mutant commodities to Omega Red, Nimrod/Siege Perilious to Bastion and OZT). In the past 3 years, the editors have brutalized the franchise into the worst elements of storytelling imaginable.

This is why I am about to drop all current X-books and complete my collection of X-books from the 60s, 70s, 80s and early 90s. Plus more stuff by Claremont, Simonson and PAD afterwards.

Ironically, the X-Men's success led to it's failure. Harras thanked Claremont for his seventeen devoted years and then told him to get out the door.

And the Dark Wolverine Saga would have been one of the best stories ever. I bet fans back then were wondering why Wolverine was just getting sicker and sicker all the time. It would have made him a more realistic character because he would be vulnerable, instead of his healing factor being able to deal with everything. He would have fought over the goodness of his soul with the demon he had become, and best of all, him and Jean would have become a couple. The hints that Claremont was dropping and building up in this storyline were so brilliant. Everywhere from Uncanny X-Men #'s 205, 226, 251-253, 256-258, 268, 273-275, Annual 14. His appearance while the Hand's master assassin was going to rock, too. He would have been this blinding, sharp creature with killer claws that looked like a silver porcupine and the Silver Surfer. Lady Deathstryke (and The Reavers, too) would have also achieved new heights for finally killing Wolverine. And I have no idea what would have become of Mariko Yashida. Or Yukio.

And Enemy of the State definitely came out of nowhere, which is more than common in today's X-Men comics, because of the constant creative team changes and roster switchups and inconsistency, and instability.

[Brian M.]

I think that Dark Wolverine stuff would have been stupid. I'm glad it never happened for obvious reasons. I don't see how Xavier at the mansion, Scott/Jean as a couple, Original X-Men as X-Men is bad?

[xakko]

I think that Dark Wolverine stuff would have been stupid. I'm glad it never happened for obvious reasons. I don't see how Xavier at the mansion, Scott/Jean as a couple, Original X-Men as X-Men is bad?
because there are a legion of ADD X-fans who can't deal with that and find it boring.

oh, and the whole mutant=change thing. it's kinda synonomous or something.

i would have enjoyed seeing the Dark Wolverine stuff, but i'm not a Logan fan, and the ubiquitous badass hero bores me to tears. i can't guarantee it would be good, but Enemy of the State wasn't too bad.

[david r]

I don't see how Xavier at the mansion, Scott/Jean as a couple, Original X-Men as X-Men is bad?

Because it's been done to death.

The posters in this thread have it dead on. The X-Men's very own success is what destroyed the series. It became a franchise. And it lost that cutting edge, cult-feel the book had during the late 70s and 1980s. It was that very suspenseful, action-packed feel, full of great character moments, that made this book.

I can say it again, but it was the editors that decided to halt any further real growth, and begin shilling out the same old stuff each and every month. Instead of Claremont's truly earth-shaking ideas for the 1990s, they went with the lightweight talents of Lobdell/Nicieza. Most fans here came up in the 90s, and really don't know any better. "X-Men Lite" is all they've ever known. And they have no problem with it.

On a personal level, what made X-Men special for me was that it was different from the other stale franchises back in the day, like Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, etc. Unlike them, X-Men truly was a book I picked up not knowing WHAT was going to happen each month. It really had an air of suspense. Nowadays, the book has become another stale franchise. I don't see Carey/Brubaker bringing that excitement back.

[Faded]

I think that Dark Wolverine stuff would have been stupid. I'm glad it never happened for obvious reasons. I don't see how Xavier at the mansion, Scott/Jean as a couple, Original X-Men as X-Men is bad?

I agree (about the Dark Wolverine thing).

I think 'shake-ups' and 'changing the status quo' are overrated.

Granted, I DO like them and find them necessary but there seems to not be allowed a reasonable rest period to make the best out of the current status quo or what already exists in history (ie. USING Darkstar rather than bringing her in to kill her).

[david r]

The Dark Wolverine tale would have been the greatest Wolverine story ever told. Remember the emotional impact of The Empire Strikes Back or Lord of the Rings: Return of the King? Claremont's aborted epic would have been a masterpiece on that level.

Hell, I'd go so far to say it would have been a story remembered now as fondly as "Dark Phoenix". Probably the Shadow King story also would be well-remembered now. Mark Millar's recent little rip-off of Claremont's tale wouldn't have touched it.

[Brian M.]

Because it's been done to death.

The posters in this thread have it dead on. The X-Men's very own success is what destroyed the series. It became a franchise. And it lost that cutting edge, cult-feel the book had during the late 70s and 1980s. It was that very suspenseful, action-packed feel, full of great character moments, that made this book.

I can say it again, but it was the editors that decided to halt any further real growth, and begin shilling out the same old stuff each and every month. Instead of Claremont's truly earth-shaking ideas for the 1990s, they went with the lightweight talents of Lobdell/Nicieza. Most fans here came up in the 90s, and really don't know any better. "X-Men Lite" is all they've ever known. And they have no problem with it.

On a personal level, what made X-Men special for me was that it was different from the other stale franchises back in the day, like Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, etc. Unlike them, X-Men truly was a book I picked up not knowing WHAT was going to happen each month. It really had an air of suspense. Nowadays, the book has become another stale franchise. I don't see Carey/Brubaker bringing that excitement back.

I've read all of Claremont's run. I've read early and late X-Factor. I've read New Mutants. Their good stories dont' get me wrong. Some great idea. For me, for what I like, is what is happening right now. So that's cool and all that you have your tastes and shit but to just flat out call them boring and X-Men Lite is a lil insulting to the fans who like it.

[Faded]

Because it's been done to death.

The posters in this thread have it dead on. The X-Men's very own success is what destroyed the series. It became a franchise. And it lost that cutting edge, cult-feel the book had during the late 70s and 1980s. It was that very suspenseful, action-packed feel, full of great character moments, that made this book.

I can say it again, but it was the editors that decided to halt any further real growth, and begin shilling out the same old stuff each and every month. Instead of Claremont's truly earth-shaking ideas for the 1990s, they went with the lightweight talents of Lobdell/Nicieza. Most fans here came up in the 90s, and really don't know any better. "X-Men Lite" is all they've ever known. And they have no problem with it.

On a personal level, what made X-Men special for me was that it was different from the other stale franchises back in the day, like Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, etc. Unlike them, X-Men truly was a book I picked up not knowing WHAT was going to happen each month. It really had an air of suspense. Nowadays, the book has become another stale franchise. I don't see Carey/Brubaker bringing that excitement back.

Is it really that difficult to make a post without bashing others?

As they say, always with them negative waves.

[Novaya Havoc]

The Dark Wolverine tale would have been the greatest Wolverine story ever told. Remember the emotional impact of The Empire Strikes Back or Lord of the Rings: Return of the King? Claremont's aborted epic would have been a masterpiece on that level.

Did you seriously compare Claremont to Tolkein? Tolkein? Who created his own languages? Who revolutionized fantasy writing? To... a Wolverine story?

[Joe Rice]

Did you seriously compare Claremont to Tolkein? Tolkein? Who created his own languages? Who revolutionized fantasy writing? To... a Wolverine story?

To be fair, he also compared him to Lucas, who is a very bad writer.

[Tommy]

To be fair, he also compared him to Lucas, who is a very bad writer.
No, he compared Claremont to Empire Strikes Back, which was neither directed nor written by Lucas.

[Brian M.]

This is what makes me so dam angry about some of you Claremont Groupies, you talk down to people who liked different things. I loved Claremont's run. I was happy to see the Originals get back to the Mansion and I was happy to see some of the stuff in the 90's happen. You consider them bad, that's cool, but don't talk down to me b/c I don't agree w/ your tastes. I don't see how people can compare stories that were never written to ones that were. Your playing the what if game and it never works. What if I went right instead of left? What if I said this instead of that? What if I was 2 seconds later that would have never happened? It doesnt' work like that, it wasn't written so you can't judge it against stories that were. I respect everyone's opinion on taste and writing and everything but when you sit there and talk down and act arrogant to others taste it pisses me off and it pisses other's off and you start having stuff happening like in the Psylocke thread earlier.

[Joe Rice]

No, he compared Claremont to Empire Strikes Back, which was neither directed nor written by Lucas.

Oh, shit, good point. Post retracted. It's total madness.

[david r]

Did you seriously compare Claremont to Tolkein? Tolkein? Who created his own languages? Who revolutionized fantasy writing? To... a Wolverine story?

No, not creating languages! I'm talking about the emotional impact. Yes, I'm comparing the two. Remember the emotional impact from God Loves, Man Kills, or Dark Phoenix, or Magneto's sacrifice in UXM #275? If you felt any resonance from those stories, then this epic would have had it in spades.

Wolverine would have become the very thing he feared. An unstoppable, uncaring monster. Worse, he would have enjoyed every minute of it. The X-Men would have been faced with killing him once and for all (if they even could.) Only one person could stop him--and that was Logan himself. He would have had to finally make the ultimate choice--between the conscience of Xavier's Dream, or embracing the horrible side of himself that the Hand had unleashed.

As for the 1990s, how anyone can really compare that era to the 70s and 80s is beyond me. The books to me play as straight-up sell-out, franchise comics. The very comics that killed any semblance of excitement or suspense X-Men once had. The X-Men became a soulless franchise in the 90s. When all we have is the "illusion of growth." It wasn't horrible, just the same recycled stuff. And I'm not "talking down to you". I'm just expressing an opinion.

[Faded]

This is what makes me so dam angry about some of you Claremont Groupies, you talk down to people who liked different things. I loved Claremont's run. I was happy to see the Originals get back to the Mansion and I was happy to see some of the stuff in the 90's happen. You consider them bad, that's cool, but don't talk down to me b/c I don't agree w/ your tastes. I don't see how people can compare stories that were never written to ones that were. Your playing the what if game and it never works. What if I went right instead of left? What if I said this instead of that? What if I was 2 seconds later that would have never happened? It doesnt' work like that, it wasn't written so you can't judge it against stories that were. I respect everyone's opinion on taste and writing and everything but when you sit there and talk down and act arrogant to others taste it pisses me off and it pisses other's off and you start having stuff happening like in the Psylocke thread earlier.

Don't call them Claremont Groupies please UT, thats not helping anything. ;)

But I overall agree--I like hearing the opinions of Claremont's die hard fans. I LIKE CLAREMONT LOVERS. HOWEVER, I LOATHE the 'Claremont rules, everyone sucks' routine or the victimized act there seems to be around here. Its rather old, odd, and to be frank, insulting.

So please. Everyone. Get off it.

[Faded]

As for the 1990s, how anyone can really compare that era to the 70s and 80s is beyond me. The books to me play as straight-up sell-out, franchise comics. The very comics that killed any semblance of excitement or suspense X-Men once had. The X-Men became a soulless franchise in the 90s. When all we have is the "illusion of growth." It wasn't horrible, just the same recycled stuff. And I'm not "talking down to you". I'm just expressing an opinion.

You are talking down. You are talking about an ENTIRE fanbase and an ENTIRE decade of stories, creators, etc. "Lightweight talents"? Please.

As I said, "negative waves".

[Brian M.]

Don't call them Claremont Groupies please UT, thats not helping anything. ;)

But I overall agree--I like hearing the opinions of Claremont's die hard fans. I LIKE CLAREMONT LOVERS. HOWEVER, I LOATHE the 'Claremont rules, everyone sucks' routine or the victimized act there seems to be around here. Its rather old, odd, and to be frank, insulting.

So please. Everyone. Get off it.

I should just have you post for me, it always sounds better. I'm not kidding. I have my favorite writers, I have my favorite artists. I have artists who's work I hate to see and visa versa w/ the writers but if someone else likes it who the hell am I to tell that person the stuff they like is crap.

[Tommy]

When all we have is the "illusion of growth." It wasn't horrible, just the same recycled stuff.
You mean like Claremont using Mind control over and over?

Or X-men turning evil?

Or killing and resurrecting characters?

[david r]

but if someone else likes it who the hell am I to tell that person the stuff they like is crap.

Yet it's okay to post "I think that Dark Wolverine stuff would have been stupid. I'm glad it never happened for obvious reasons."

[Novaya Havoc]

No, not creating languages! I'm talking about the emotional impact. Yes, I'm comparing the two. Remember the emotional impact from God Loves, Man Kills, or Dark Phoenix, or Magneto's sacrifice in UXM #275? If you felt any resonance from those stories, then this epic would have had it in spades.

Never read God Loves, Man Kills. Magneto's sacrifice in #275 meant nothing to me. Likewise with the DPS, considering I knew Jean would be back by the time I read it (must confess, though, that the animated series version of the Phoenix Saga did get to me, but that's neither here nor there).

Still, comparing it to Tolkein is outrageous.


Wolverine would have become the very thing he feared. An unstoppable, uncaring monster.

Already dealt with that dilemma many times.

The X-Men would have been faced with killing him once and for all (if they even could.)

Been there, done that. Especially with the other "epic" you cited: DPS.

Only one person could stop him--and that was Logan himself. He would have had to finally make the ultimate choice--between the conscience of Xavier's Dream, or embracing the horrible side of himself that the Hand had unleashed.

So... his indominatable will overcomes all, hmmm?

As for the 1990s, how anyone can really compare that era to the 70s and 80s is beyond me.

I think most people look at CC's 70s and 80s through rose-colored lenses, taking a few good years/arcs and stretching them over the entire span. Some issues throughout the Phoenix years were good. Proteus was decent. I liked the Brood and DOFP. Storm losing her powers instead of Rogue was nice (at first). I could have done without a lot of the in-between stuff: Rogue, Magus, Nimrod. Asgardian Wars? I was fairly over most everything in the stretch between 150 and 210.

Morlock Massacre is really when I started to like Claremont's stuff (though I liked the issues in X-Factor better). Around Fall of the Mutants is when X-Men became good for Claremont, and rode on through until he left. And, ironically, this is when CC started having to actually... crossover and work with other writers on other titles. But the massive bulk of the early-to-mid 80s I didn't find so amazing that nothing compares.


The books to me play as straight-up sell-out, franchise comics. The very comics that killed any semblance of excitement or suspense X-Men once had. The X-Men became a soulless franchise in the 90s. When all we have is the "illusion of growth." It wasn't horrible, just the same recycled stuff. And I'm not "talking down to you". I'm just expressing an opinion.

Well, I agree with you in part. Yeah, it did become franchise comics and I think it dragged down some of the cool things that could have come from it. But it's not as if CC stayed on the title this would have been avoided. I'm sure Lobdell, Niceza, or any other X-Writer would have made similar strides in the story if not for the market forces that shaped the X-Men into a franchise.

Somehow you think that if Claremont "did his thing" X-Men would be glorious. Claremont became a primadonna that resisted change and influence. He made X-Men a hit. Yep. And, sadly, there are creative consequences with such a massive paycheck increase. So he was given the boot because he wouldn't adapt.

Any other writer that had the wild control CC did in the 80s would probably have done great things with the book in the 90s. But CC shippers only feel they could have been done write by Claremont, and anyone who saw the potential in others' stories have some attention deficit or no "fine appreciation" for "epic storytelling." I resent that.

[Brian M.]

Yet it's okay to post "I think that Wolverine stuff would have been stupid.

Yea, I think, I'm not declaring, I'm not insulting," How could anyone ever think that stuff was good". I'm not talking down to anyone. I do think that Wolverine storyline would have been kinda dumb. I don't see any need to make him a villian. I also don't see the need to have Jean leave Scott for Logan after a story like that. I also don't get why you feel the need to constantly act superior and insult me in various threads.

[Faded]

EDITED OUT

[Alex A Sanchez]

Still, comparing it to Tolkein is outrageous.


Lets get serious- Tolkein didn't invent a language, no matter how many people like to say so. He developed a code for writing English. I don't think its fair to compare Claremont with Tolkein, just as it isn't fair to contrast the two either (i.e. you shouldn't say that it is outrageous). These are two different mediums here- both had a revolutionary impact on the form of storytelling they excelled in.

I work with troubled kids, and the ones who have anger-management issues like Logan (and who have similar personalities), have a huge potential for exploding into violence and becoming "evil". They wage their own internal battles of right and wrong. Having the bad side of Wolverine come out is a natural progression of the character, and a story like this still needs to be told, I feel. The problem is that in todays market, it would be turned into a 10 issue crossover event involving the entire MU called something cheesey like "The Logan Quest" or "Trial of Wolverine", and nobody wants to see that. :(

[Titan76]

No, he compared Claremont to Empire Strikes Back, which was neither directed nor written by Lucas.
Lucas didn't direct it but he did write it. He wrote all six of the stories for Star Wars but didn't do the screen play for ESB and ROTJ.

[Titan76]

I think that Dark Wolverine stuff would have been stupid. I'm glad it never happened for obvious reasons.
Well, it did kind of happen in Millar's EotS story. I mean that whole story Millar did was based on CC Dark Wolverine story. So it actually did happen. :p

Edit: As for the thread topic, the X-men will never be like the once were under CC or even Morrison imo. Its the most successfu franchise in all of comics which means less risk, chances, and even character growth. It will mostly always just be old recycle stories like it has been for over a decade now.

[fishtaco]

Yea, I think, I'm not declaring, I'm not insulting," How could anyone ever think that stuff was good". I'm not talking down to anyone. I do think that Wolverine storyline would have been kinda dumb. I don't see any need to make him a villian. I also don't see the need to have Jean leave Scott for Logan after a story like that. I also don't get why you feel the need to constantly act superior and insult me in various threads.You're a bit biased in your judgement of the story because you want two particular characters as a couple.

I wouldn't call everything post 1991 X-Men lite, but most of it definitely was.You mean like Claremont using Mind control over and over?

Or X-men turning evil?

Or killing and resurrecting characters?lol. That's a face value judgement. Mind control, X-Men turning evil, or killing/resseurecting characters are concrete, literal things that happen in a plot in order for concepts to be played out. I don't ever remember Claremont writing a story where the concept itself is mind control. If you remember one, then by all means, share it.

The success of the X-Men led to it's failure and destruction.

[Brian M.]

You're a bit biased in your judgement of the story because you want two particular characters as a couple.

I wouldn't call everything post 1991 X-Men lite, but most of it definitely was.lol. That's a face value judgement. Mind control, X-Men turning evil, or killing/resseurecting characters are concrete, literal things that happen in a plot in order for concepts to be played out. I don't ever remember Claremont writing a story where the concept itself is mind control. If you remember one, then by all means, share it.

The success of the X-Men led to it's failure and destruction.


Yea, I have my tastes when it comes to the X-Men. I like Scott/Jean. A story that would come out that tears them apart, I'm not gonna like, so I'm glad it didn't happen. Millar's Wolverine story was good but it didn't really have that big of an impact.

Again, the statements that the X-Men have failed and crap like that, it's insulting to those of us who loved a lot of that stuff in the 90's.

Claremont not writing a story on mind control? The story in his original run in the low 120's where Colossus is mind controlled. Rachel was mind controlled in the Savage Land arc. There's plenty. You talk about the concrete concepts that Claremont writes about yet some of those same concepts when done by other writers you talk about being unoriginal and boring. I don't get the logic you present sometimes.

[fishtaco]

Yea, I have my tastes when it comes to the X-Men. I like Scott/Jean. A story that would come out that tears them apart, I'm not gonna like, so I'm glad it didn't happen. Millar's Wolverine story was good but it didn't really have that big of an impact. And I respect that, but it doesn't make the story stupid.

Again, the statements that the X-Men have failed and crap like that, it's insulting to those of us who loved a lot of that stuff in the 90's. Well, I was also refferring to the bankruptcy that cost Harras his job.

Claremont not writing a story on mind control? The story in his original run in the low 120's where Colossus is mind controlled. Rachel was mind controlled in the Savage Land arc. There's plenty. You talk about the concrete concepts that Claremont writes about yet some of those same concepts when done by other writers you talk about being unoriginal and boring. I don't get the logic you present sometimes.Was that story where Colossus was brainwashed (not mind-controlled) in Uncanny X-Men #123-124 about how Colossus was brainwashed/mind controlled? No, it was about his split loyalty to the USSR an the (American based) X-Men. Was that story in Uncanny X-Men #455-459 about how Rachel was fighting for the other side? No, it was about several things. Given, Rachel did fight for the other side. Yes, that happened in the story. But was that what the story was about? Also, Rachel wasn't mind controlled. The telepathic Hauk'ka altered her perceptions to make her believe she was one of them. He was manipulating her, sure, but he didn't at all mind control her.

[Brian M.]

And I respect that, but it doesn't make the story stupid.

For me, it would be. Wolverine goes on a killing spree and gets all evil and then when he comes back Jean jumps off her long time lover to get busy w/ the murder? That makes sense. So in my opinion, I think that would make a stupid story.

Well, I was also refferring to the bankruptcy that cost Harras his job.

Did a good job stating that too.

Was that story where Colossus was brainwashed (not mind-controlled) in Uncanny X-Men #123-124 about how Colossus was brainwashed/mind controlled? No, it was about his split loyalty to the USSR an the (American based) X-Men. Was that story in Uncanny X-Men #455-459 about how Rachel was fighting for the other side? No, it was about several things. Given, Rachel did fight for the other side. Yes, that happened in the story. But was that what the story was about? Also, Rachel wasn't mind controlled. The telepathic Hauk'ka altered her perceptions to make her believe she was one of them. He was manipulating her, sure, but he didn't at all mind control her

You realize that IS MIND CONTROL right?

Psylocke being controlled by the Hand - Mind Control
Jeans' continued influence by Mastermind in the DPS - Mind Control

Some other examples.

[captain gloves]

Magneto's sacrifice in #275 meant nothing to me. Likewise with the DPS, considering I knew Jean would be back by the time I read it (must confess, though, that the animated series version of the Phoenix Saga did get to me, but that's neither here nor there).
my head just exploded.

[Twigglet]

The only reason the X-franchise is stale, is because the same people who love change, and loved the title back 30 years ago, want the book to be like that again.

[fishtaco]

For me, it would be. Wolverine goes on a killing spree and gets all evil and then when he comes back Jean jumps off her long time lover to get busy w/ the murder? That makes sense. So in my opinion, I think that would make a stupid story. Yeah, that wasn't what was going to happen, but whatever.


Psylocke being controlled by the Hand - Mind ControlWrong. They brainwashed and corrupted her by cutting her off from her senses of smell, touch, taste, sight, sound, etc while having her (all in her mind) kill all of her teammates to acquire the rings to give (as a sign of loyalty) to the Mandarin. She acted of her own free will; she just didn't know any better because she was brainwashed. She was never mind controlled.
Jeans' continued influence by Mastermind in the DPS - Mind ControlWrong again. the Shadow King (through Mastermind) corrupted Phoenix into the Black Queen, but he never intended for her to become Dark Phoenix. She was brainwashed and corrupted, but she was never in that story mind controlled. Her mind was not being controlled. She made her actions consciencely, but once again, she fell from grace and turned to evil. No mind control. X-Man vs X-Man? Sure thing. Mind control? No. [/QUOTE] The only reason the X-franchise is stale, is because the same people who love change, and loved the title back 30 years ago, want the book to be like that again.That makes absolutely no sense. Sure, everybody wants the book to be as good as it was back from 1975-1991, but that DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE SAME THINGS MUST BE REPEATED. Claremont was taking the book in a whole new daring direction with years and years of build up. No more little mansion hidey hole. No more Xavier to hold their hands and guide them. More dangers and threats, new places (Outback, Madripoor, Dreamtime, Genosha, Planet P!indyr), new villains (Mats'uo Tsuryaba, Fenris, Warskrulls, The Hand, Sinister, Trevor Fitzroy, Robert Kelly, Tullamore Voge, Apocalypse (this one was Simonson's), Stryfe (this one was Liefeld's), Genosha, Masque, Shinobi Shaw, Selene, the ever-rising evil and danger of the Shadow King, Donald Pierce and his Reavers among them Lady Deathstryke, Kelly/Shaw '92, Gambit, Ahab, Mojo and Spiral, Zaladane and Semnyov, Nanny and Orphan Maker, Viper and Silver Samurai, The Hand, Lilandra), old villains becoming allies and some X-Men (Magneto, Mystique, Deathbird), multiplying plotlines, and the X-Men more proactive than ever as the Dream would have become a trillion times more important with the death of the dreamer himself and the Shadow King's rise to power, as well as Kelly and Shaw gaining more influence in the government and over the sentinel progrrams. Things became closer and closer to the status quo of the nightmare world like the Days of Future Past. Just because they saved Kelly doesn't mean the threat of the DOFP is gone. The only thins that changed were the specific details. New heroes were introduced (Guido, Gateway, Cable, Domino, Shatterstar, Feral, Thunderbird II became Warpath, Gambit, Jubilee, Kylun, Rictor, Forge, Gossamyr, Tessa was going to reveal her true colors, Whiz Kid, Darkstar). Alpha Flight was scattered all across Canada, some dead, some retired, some wandering, some dying, etc). Years later, the mutant population exploded. More mutants were being outed, and the dream became even more important. X-Corporation was esbtalished, and things got very intense.

Now, all Marvel seems to want to do is to go back to the Stan Lee status quo. Xavier teaching the X-Men, the X-Men all at the mansion, Magneto a maniac, mutant population down to nearly nothing, blah blah blah blah blah all down back to square one. All progression thrown out the window. And what do we have now? A complete trainwrecking disaster that the editors and writers don't know how to handle, and only make worse.

Yes, X-Men is now impossible to write. It practicly can't be written.

[DDM]

Wrong. They brainwashed and corrupted her by cutting her off from her senses of smell, touch, taste, sight, sound, etc while having her (all in her mind) kill all of her teammates to acquire the rings to give (as a sign of loyalty) to the Mandarin. She acted of her own free will; she just didn't know any better because she was brainwashed. She was never mind controlled.

The term you're looking for is sensory deprivation. Psylocke was already amnesiac when the Hand brainwashed her. Psylocke redefined her new reality which she gained her heart's desire to become the ultimate woman warrior, Lady Mandarin.

Wrong again. the Shadow King (through Mastermind) corrupted Phoenix into the Black Queen, but he never intended for her to become Dark Phoenix. She was brainwashed and corrupted, but she was never in that story mind controlled. Her mind was not being controlled. She made her actions consciencely, but once again, she fell from grace and turned to evil. No mind control. X-Man vs X-Man? Sure thing. Mind control? No.

Mastermind assumed Phoenix was simply Marvel Girl with a flashier name & different costume; he miscalculated. However, at some point--around Uncanny X-Men #125-126--Mastermind had to realize Phoenix was completely different than he thought, but he still thought he could control her. Mastermind wanted to join the Hellfire Club's Lords Cardinal which through Phoenix he could rule the world. Mastermind simply exposed Phoenix's dark side by giving her her heart's desires through his sophisticated, telepathically induced illusions. Mastermind did control Phoenix up to Uncanny X-Men #132, but he released his mental hold on her. From that point on, she was acting of her own free will...

[fishtaco]

The term you're looking for is sensory deprivation. Psylocke was already amnesiac when the Hand brainwashed her. Psylocke redefined her new reality which she gained her heart's desire to become the ultimate woman warrior, Lady Mandarin. That's the one. Sensory deprivation.



Mastermind assumed Phoenix was simply Marvel Girl with a flashier name & different costume; he miscalculated. However, at some point--around Uncanny X-Men #125-126--Mastermind had to realize Phoenix was completely different than he thought, but he still thought he could control her. Mastermind wanted to join the Hellfire Club's Lords Cardinal which through Phoenix he could rule the world. Mastermind simply exposed Phoenix's dark side by giving her her heart's desires through his sophisticated, telepathically induced illusions. Mastermind did control Phoenix up to Uncanny X-Men #132, but he released his mental hold on her. From that point on, she was acting of her own free will...I know that. And ruling the world is more of a Shadow King motivation...

[Faded]

Yes, X-Men is now impossible to write. It practicly can't be written.


I disagree, but its definitely no walk in the park (I admit I'm over critical at times). Overall, I'm pretty satisfied other than the occasional Milligan issues that haven't worked (though even there I've liked some).

Still, whoever thought of No More Mutants is mean. :mad: ;)

It just had to be said. Poor babies. :(

*caresses back issues gently as New Avengers 18 sets into my head*

[Brian M.]

Yeah, that wasn't what was going to happen, but whatever.

Well that's what your fellow worshiper DDM said and I mean isn't his word basically the word of God Claremont?


Wrong. They brainwashed and corrupted her by cutting her off from her senses of smell, touch, taste, sight, sound, etc while having her (all in her mind) kill all of her teammates to acquire the rings to give (as a sign of loyalty) to the Mandarin. She acted of her own free will; she just didn't know any better because she was brainwashed. She was never mind controlled.


Wrong again. the Shadow King (through Mastermind) corrupted Phoenix into the Black Queen, but he never intended for her to become Dark Phoenix. She was brainwashed and corrupted, but she was never in that story mind controlled. Her mind was not being controlled. She made her actions consciencely, but once again, she fell from grace and turned to evil. No mind control. X-Man vs X-Man? Sure thing. Mind control? No.

Ok lemme rephrase this than since your being nitpicky. Brainwashing/Mind Control/Possesion all the same to me. It is an outside force controlling the characters.

Also try being less of a dick.

[Citizen V]

I believe the X-Men franchise is largely misunderstood from the editors. This began with editor, Bob Harras, who forced Chris Claremont off Uncanny X-Men after 17 years of writing the book. Harras also hijacked many of Claremont's plots & diluted them. For instance, Harras did not want the Shadow King to kill Xavier. Harras also wanted Magneto back in the villain role. Harras did not want Wolverine to go insane & become a villain. Harras refused Chris Claremont to allow him to write both Uncanny X-Men & X-Men, yet Scott Lobdell would write both books a few years later.

Furthermore, many of the editors after Bob Harras followed his model of not understanding the franchise, but still control the franchise they severely did not "get."
Mark Powers, Andrew Lis, Mike Marts, Sean Ryan, & Nick Lowe are but a few of the X-editors who a piloting a ship without a compass.

That...is true.But i would have to place blame on them for not putting the X back together.Its been watered down so much,i dont think anything is going to be done for years to come.

I still blame Morrison,he was the one who started it,or..should i say pushed it out into the open.Emma Frost...Jean dying..what utter crap. :mad:

[Twigglet]

After reading Daredevil, and Captain America I have to say Brubakers run on Uncanny will be amazing.

I do think at this current time, the x-titles are the weakest group in the current MU, I think HOM helped things (X-factor and Son Of M wouldn't of been possible without HOM and Decimation)

[FieryBalrog]

I personally feel Morrison did an amazing job on the X-men and I would have loved to see a really long run from him, 5-10 years or so. His 40 issues are easily my second favorite mega-arc on the X-men.

[fishtaco]

Well that's what your fellow worshiper DDM said and I mean isn't his word basically the word of God Claremont?No.
Ok lemme rephrase this than since your being nitpicky. Brainwashing/Mind Control/Possesion all the same to me. It is an outside force controlling the characters.

Also try being less of a dick.Well, they aren't the same thing. Hitler brainwashed millions of people in Germany into believing that Jews and Poles and Gypsies are the source of their economic problems and strife. So they joined the Nazi party. But did Hitler mind control them? That's the difference.

But this is all off topic.

[Novaya Havoc]

No.
Well, they aren't the same thing. Hitler brainwashed millions of people in Germany into believing that Jews and Poles and Gypsies are the source of their economic problems and strife.

That's the worst analogy for Psylocke being brainwashed by the Hand I think I've ever heard in my 21 years of existence.

[Brian M.]

No.
Well, they aren't the same thing. Hitler brainwashed millions of people in Germany into believing that Jews and Poles and Gypsies are the source of their economic problems and strife. So they joined the Nazi party. But did Hitler mind control them? That's the difference.

But this is all off topic.

I don't care. I tried being nice and respect Cronin special rule for you but that comparison is the dumbest thing anyone could come up with. Your comparing the horrible shit from WW2 to a comic book. Seriously are you retarded? I dont' even care about the Claremont stuff anymore, are you that off your rocker that that comparison makes sense? Your a fool.

[fishtaco]

I don't care. I tried being nice and respect Cronin special rule for you but that comparison is the dumbest thing anyone could come up with. Your comparing the horrible shit from WW2 to a comic book. Seriously are you retarded? I dont' even care about the Claremont stuff anymore, are you that off your rocker that that comparison makes sense? Your a fool.I didn't mean to offend, but I thought that a more known example would help me explain to you how mind control and brainwashing differ, especially in a Claremont book. I don't see how that makes me foolish or crazy (off my rocker). If I recall correctly, you (as well as many, many, many other people, some being people employed by Marvel) have compared Magneto to Hitler (a WW2 comparison). I don't have a problem with it, and I don't think it is foolish. And take a look at Captain America. Nothing wrong with referencing WW2 in a comic book. :cool:

[david r]

For me, it would be. Wolverine goes on a killing spree and gets all evil and then when he comes back Jean jumps off her long time lover to get busy w/ the murder? That makes sense. So in my opinion, I think that would make a stupid story.


From what you've posted here, you don't seem to know how the Dark Wolverine story was going to work. While Wolverine was under their power, Jean Grey was to secretly infiltrate the Hand. Jean would get close to Logan, and in an attempt to save him, allow herself to be seduced by him. So she could get close and telepathically try to undo all the damage and spells the Hand had done.

A consequence of this would be a deconnection between the rapport between Scott and Jean. It really seems that Claremont had been slowly building up to the "Logan/Jean" couple for years. If you look closely at his stories. I can fully understand how a lover of the "Scott/Jean" romance would be appalled at these plans, but don't criticize too much since we don't know the details on how this all would have played out. (This is also an argument that Claremont doesn't just recycle the same old tired thing. Jean/Logan as a Hot Couple permanently had never been done before, and would have created a new dynamic. A reversal of what we'd seen for years (Cyclops being the odd man out this time!!)

I will also admit that Claremont does recycle the same plots sometimes. "X-Men turned evil" and Mind Control is prevalent in his work. As well as a "Slave" theme, and the sight of a bunch of X-Men holding hands to stop a villain. Sharing their "feel the wuv" energy together to stop the Adversary, the Fury, Sh'iar etc.

[Brian M.]

I'm not saying that Claremont's theme's are bad, but when some people complain that the X-Books are getting old and the same stuff is constantly being put out it's kinda of a hypocritical thing to say.

[atoningunifex]

I think the X-Books- and mainstream comics in general- are becoming more difficult to write. But I don't think the main problem is editorial interference or writer quality or any of that.

I think the main problem is the culture.

I am of the belief, and I'm not alone, that the "golden age" of the X is the stuff published from the creation of the All new team to the end of the Outback era. That was the most vibrant time for the books. The writers, the artists and the editors seemed to be working in tandem to create a cutlural juggernaut.

But look at the time frame. You're talking mid-70s to late 80s. When Claremont, Cockrum and Byrne really started cooking there wasn't the level of organized fandom there would one day be. Reading comic books was more of a solitary expereince. And you didn't know what would be happening from one month to the next. Everything was a surprise.

In the 80s that started shifting. Suddenly there were sneak peeks and hints. I remember when Amazing Heroes would do their previews of upcoming stuff. it was vague, but you could start to puzzle things out. But still, mostly a solitary activity. And feedback from fans was limited to letters, conventions and sales figures. Fans could interact in comic book stores, but there was still no real connection with the publishers.

The advent of the internet, and the revolution in expectation that the internet inspired, changed the culture. We have complete access to instantaneous information. And we want it. We want to know and we do not want to wait. And with the internet we don't have to.

I remember going to the movies with some friends- this was sometime in the late 90s- and we were wondering where we'd seen a certain actor before. We couldn't think of anything off the top of our heads so I suggested we go look him up on IMDB. One of my friends turned to me and said "What did we do before the internet? Oh yeah, we remembered!"

The internet has become our memory. It holds all the facts we want but don't have brain space for. Not only that, but it also allows us to interact with others in ways never before possible.

Comic book reading is no longer a solitary event for many people. It is a multipoint experience. You can read the comic and then immediately share your feedback and get the feedback of others. It is possible to form "tribes". There's no more waiting three months to see if other readers agree with you on a certain issue. Now you don't have to wait even three minutes.

Not that you need to wait at all. X-Men Deadly Genesis hadn't even started and everyone knew the third Summers Brother was involved. Rumors, spoilers, speculation- the internet has taken away that sense of surprise.

Comic readers- maybe not all, but a sizable, marketable part-are reading comic books differently.

So how does this make writing the X-men more difficult?

Imagine you're writer B. And it is announced that you are coming onto the X-Books. The second that announcement hits a big chunk of your readership already has an opinion on not only how your run will read but what will happen in it. You've got access to that. Worse, your editors have access to that. What's more, you're going to have to release information about what you're planning to write in order to build "buzz".

Meanwhile, editorial is getting instant feedback from fans. They know what people want to see and what they don't want to see. They also know that more often than not you've got large groups that want to see different things. You've got the Morrisonites vs. the Claremontians. You've got the ape beasties vs the kitty catters. You've also got the reality that comics aren't growing. You're seeing the same numbers month after month. You're competing for a piece of a pretty stable pie. And more and more of the people who make up that pie are turning to the internet to express themselves.

This is pretty much always going to result in a mixed bag of goods. not all bad, but not all good either. Whereas once you had three people- maybe four if Shooter felt the need to step in- making decisions about the direction of a book now you have thousands of people demanding input.

What's more, you have to sell Y amount of X Books in order to make a profit after paying top rate for the fan favorites. So you need as much product out there as possible to appeal to as many different "groups" as possible. Which means that so much is going on in any given month that it becomes a herculean feat just to make the continuity match.

There's also certain knowledge that nothing you write is going to last much longer than the end of your run. Probably the only X-Writer who has seen significant changes last is Claremont. And that's only his old stuff. His new stuff will get retconned away just like everyone else's. It's the big do-over button.

Yeah, it's harder to write the X-Men. It's harder to write anything these days. What the industry needs is a new mindset. What the readership needs is to abandon the need for continuity. What everyone needs is a sense of surprise.

[david r]

Couldn't agree more about the internet changes. That "sense of surprise" has definitely been altered. I miss it.

[Titan76]

Atoningunifex, you make some very good points however you overlook one thing: The internet only makes up a small portion of comic fans.

If the internet made up the vast majority of comic fans like you make it sound like then comics like New Avengers, Supergirl, etc wouldn't be selling very high numbers(I mean look at all the bad posts they get on websites). Not to mention Marvel only listens to fans mainly with their money. The won't change something unless sales for the book go down. Very raley will they act on fan outrages or fan reviews from the internet.

Like I said you make good points and they all make great sense but I don't think the points you have made have that much of a big impact like you suggest they do, but that's my opion.

[Novaya Havoc]

Excellent post. A+!

[Tobias March]

Yes I don't see the internet in itself being a huge stumbling block to writing a good story. It can become one if the writer does not anticipate how s/he could use viral marketing or net 'buzz', to promote a story - but many writers and comic companies have embraced these methods and I'm sure in time the majority will.

The various 'tribes' that exist online (Morrisonites vs. the Claremontians - brilliant!) can perhaps be difficult to negotiate with, but even they can be safely ignored if all they're doing is yelling incoherently that their personal Jesus isn't penning our favourite muties latest adventures. I do believe good word of mouth will out, but only once the product can be adequately promoted and delivered to the right markets. I think both DC and Marvel learnt a lot from the debacle of H.E.A.T. They're certainly more conscious of fan groups like that.

With X-Men, however, there is such a fear with taking risks with the property (and that's what it has become - a property, not an ongoing story) that any problems writers/editors may have with it stem less from online fangroups, then from a desperate need to maintain the status quo (in a comic which is suposedly all about change).

If the film-makers were serious about dumping many of the principal cast members in the next X-Movie it would be interesting to see if that affects the status of the comic any.

[Cowlander]

Aton just rebroke the internet. Great post man, you really put alot of serious insight into that one.

[Citizen V]

I would still have to say that yes..X-Men is rather hard.Its practically its own Universe,and Claremont invented that Universe.Its sad to say...but some do belive only Claremont can bring out the Uncanny`s true potential.

There is so much that has to be known,especially if you like continuity to be kept.Characters,events,times and places.I would perhaps even go far enough to say that its the hardest book to write at Marvel.

I personally dont like it when new writers come onto it,and try to change what is already firmly established,or water things down.Its like they dont want to keep things up to past,the way they were.Or if some things have to change..then do it in a way that would bring good justice to the Uncanny`s name.

[FieryBalrog]

Claremont did not invent the X-men universe.

[Marty4Magik]

Claremont did not invent the X-men universe.

Well, in a sense he did.
Sure, Jack and Stan started it as part of the MU, but Claremont made it a Universe all it's own...he even started the spin-offs New Mutants, Excalibur, Wolverine.....

[moebius]

I would say it's self evident that X-Men has become harder to write. Not even Claremont can write them anymore.

I'm going to go with editorial interference + loss of initial mission statement ("world that hates and fears us" replaced by Lobdell/Austen soap opera)= Team Book X, and not a unique take on the medium. If you can imagine the story being told in the context of the Avengers, FF or JLA, it's not a good X-Men story.

So other than Alan Davis' run and Morrison's run, the last 15 years has been pretty bleak. Whedon is telling some nice stories, but they're good from a technical standpoint. You could probably plug in the Teen Titans and get the same results.

[Huzzah!]

Nope. I dont think it is hard to write. But to be honest with the exception of the Magneto/Chuckles Excalibur which was a different direction for a x-book none of the writers have been even trying. Morrison whom many hold up as the bastion for big changes essentially just copied the movie aesthetic with some old claremont story spit shine. Any changes made are largely cosmetic.

Looking over the original run there were pretty distinct eras. Stan Lee era through Neal Adams. Then the Wein/Claremont original new team era ending with Dark Phoenix. The Kitty Era up until the Rachel Grey stuff. That to the post Mutant Masscacre era leading into the Aussie X-men. The Muir Island X-men era, no current writer would have the balls for this one. And finally to the Blue and Gold era, and era which i would say we are still in.

There is no real change in tone or hasnt been in a long time. With the core x-men still sort of hanging around there is a lot of back up, in more of a septic tank way than anything.

Marvel probably doesnt have the patients it once had to be sure, i dont know how much change would could get away with. Sure you can change continuity which they seem okay with, but they are stuck in the marketing aspect so i doubt the X-men will really be leaving the New York Mansion any time soon...or going through any drastic lineup changes. Sabretooth/Mystique/White Queen are heroes now...but they were heroes in the 90s too to a certain extent.

I think even with those limitations x-men aren't that hard to write if you dont make it overly complicated. And i think we need a new consistent creative team to really put in a lot of time to really shape the group. Currently they seem only interested in getting writers from different backgrounds to essentially write the same stories and hopething the approach is enough to make up for the fact that the story is played out.

There needs to really be a writer who is willing to take the x-men in a new direction,,, not just the continuity or even the background. 16 million mutants only changed the background of the x-men, seems to be little actual change involved. XXM seemed to have some possibilty for some type of change, but Claremont seemed to return back to base when he got to far away.

Now i know what one might be thinking. If i realize there are marketing issues involved how could one really change the verse. I doubt one could initially, but you could certainly start to lay some ground work and if its received well enough you use that as a push to keep going.

With writers making essentially pussy moves by killing no name characters they hurt their own cause. I think death is certainly something that is occasionally needed to enact change. Jeans death changed the feeling of the x-men. The Masscacre changed the feeling. So on and so forth.

I also think you need a long term writer. Big names dont hang around. Find a good writer who is loyal...like a Gail Simone. Allow the book to make a name bigger. If Austen showed us anything, its that xmen has an audience no matter what....Morrison...milligan....hell even Claremont only have so much audience that their names will boost the book. Save them for x-themed minis. Hell put Claremont in charge of editing the X-men rather than writing, that itself seems to be an idea worth looking at. I'm sure there would be less continuity errors at least. Plus i would like to see him on New Avengers anyway, he might be able to save that book from being the collosal turd it is right now considering the lineup. And he does work better with older characters and i suspect his captain would be pretty good not to mention his wolverine.

X-men is pretty easy. Just dont half ass it....half assing it is hard.

[Marty4Magik]

You make some very good points.
Great post.

[chickrockguitar]

I do find it annoying that what Claremont writes seems to be law half of the time. I mean, yes, I know the guy has been a big part of the X-Men comics for years and years, and I respect him for that, but there are plenty other good writers in Comics also, who can write X-Men just as good as he can. I wish some people could see that... :rolleyes:

[Xany Kaos]

I also think you need a long term writer. Big names dont hang around. Find a good writer who is loyal...

Definately agree with that.

I think part of what makes the books so crappy now is just...there are too many of them, and none of them really seem to stand out so much. They're all muddled. Like he said, writers keep pussy-footing around anything dramatic (unless it's a gianormous cross-over that we all know will be retconned in a matter of years) and just rehash the same thing over and over. Part of that is from not being on the book for more than a few years, at most. Find a decent writer, throw him on X, stick with him, and let him improve. As Huzzah! said--X-men's got an audience no matter what. If someone stayed on long term, they'd probably get a little bit more respect for the characters, and maybe grow a pair when it comes to writing.


...and stop retconning everything. Nothing has any "umph" anymore because everything can be retconned.

[Huzzah!]

There could be writers just as good as claremont...but all the post x-men 3 writers are all chasing claremont.

Morrison was basically just retelling claremont stories.


When there were writers earlier on, stan lee to....who wrote it when Neal Adams drew it? there were shifts in the book...it felt different. Up until after Claremont i could feel shifts in the book. I would even say, now that i think about it, the Jim Lee stuff post CC was also a shift in some ways. Now the mentality seems to be just look at old stories and retell or reconnect to, and even CC is doing this now... with the exception of the ProfX/Mags Excalibur which was the one book that really seemed to be going off in a different direction....or Mekanix.

X-statix had a bit of a splinter...but it was the same story over and over again

New members join. Fighting. Sacrifice. Some die. Rinse repeat.

I havent seen any bold decisions in the major 2/3 x-books in a long time.

[Exodus]

Well i feel the X-men has gone thru changes over the years, and at one point those changes placed them back where they started with the creation of the blue/gold teams.


But i think its long overdue for another change from that, in my opinion the X-teams needs to move out.

Cramming 4 books in one mansion, Using Wolverine in 6 books, it doesnt make sense, and it hinders each individual writer to put something unique in his Arc.

You cant imprison Beast for long, for example, as he would be needed in another book.


In my opinion, they need to split the teams up by book, (choose where to put Logan and keep him there) then move each individual team somewhere else.

That way the writers gets to really work their team any way they see fit.


-Exodus

[Rokk]

Cramming 4 books in one mansion, Using Wolverine in 6 books, it doesnt make sense, and it hinders each individual writer to put something unique in his Arc.

You cant imprison Beast for long, for example, as he would be needed in another book.

In my opinion, they need to split the teams up by book, (choose where to put Logan and keep him there) then move each individual team somewhere else.

That way the writers gets to really work their team any way they see fit.

-Exodus
You took the words right out of my mouth. It is so difficult for writers to write the X-Men because there are so many characters that hop in and out of each title and all live in the same mansion. It is hard to keep up with continuity and for each writer to know what the others are doing. And I like Wolverine, but enough already. That guy is appearing in so many comics that I was expecting him to the be cause behind DC' Infinite Crisis.

[fishtaco]

Well i feel the X-men has gone thru changes over the years, and at one point those changes placed them back where they started with the creation of the blue/gold teams.


But i think its long overdue for another change from that, in my opinion the X-teams needs to move out.

Cramming 4 books in one mansion, Using Wolverine in 6 books, it doesnt make sense, and it hinders each individual writer to put something unique in his Arc.

You cant imprison Beast for long, for example, as he would be needed in another book.


In my opinion, they need to split the teams up by book, (choose where to put Logan and keep him there) then move each individual team somewhere else.

That way the writers gets to really work their team any way they see fit.


-ExodusCorrect. Good post.

[Doom Hammer]

If I recall correctly, you (as well as many, many, many other people, some being people employed by Marvel) have compared Magneto to Hitler (a WW2 comparison).

That's because he tried to exterminate the humans in New York, walking then into incinerators and all. There are a couple more similarities there.

[Syzygy]

No.
Well, they aren't the same thing. Hitler brainwashed millions of people in Germany into believing that Jews and Poles and Gypsies are the source of their economic problems and strife. So they joined the Nazi party. But did Hitler mind control them? That's the difference.

But this is all off topic.

He didn't brainwash them. He simply convinced them. Since many of them were already anti-semetic, they were willing to believe it.

Brainwashing is what the Hand did to Psylocke. And yes, it is a form of mind control. Essentially, you "take away" or alter someone's sense of identity, and give them another.

There must be at least two dozen stories where Claremont does this. At the end, the character resists with their "indomitable will", and is restored, at least in part.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Valen]

You took the words right out of my mouth. It is so difficult for writers to write the X-Men because there are so many characters that hop in and out of each title and all live in the same mansion. It is hard to keep up with continuity and for each writer to know what the others are doing. And I like Wolverine, but enough already. That guy is appearing in so many comics that I was expecting him to the be cause behind DC' Infinite Crisis.
You have to admit that they have trimmed down Wolverine's books quite a bit. He is no longer a main cast member of all three main X Books. He is down to just Astonishing (which is bi-monthly right now), New Avengers (as a mostly background player so far), and his two monthlies (of which Origins seems like an overkill that won't last long). Yes he does appear in the other X books, but so do Cyclops, Emma, Beast and the others. Most of them are taking place in the same location, so it makes sense to see them in New X-Men or the 198. It would be odd if the main X-Men didn't appear.

As much as I enjoy some of the minor books, I will admit that there are too many of them. If I were able to trim the universe, here is what I would keep:

Astonishing X-Men (until Whedon and Cassiday are done, then bring back the regular X-Men book)
Uncanny X-Men
Wolverine
Cable/Deadpool
New X-Men
New Excalibur (Gives CC a something he can run with)
X-Factor

Cancel:
X-Men (or put on hold til Astonishing is finished)
Wolverine Origins (its excessive)
Storm
Exiles (Let TB bring the book to a grand finish)
Put a hold on all Miniseries projects for at least the next 6 months.

[xgeek52]

difficult to write...kinda, sorta....depends on who you get...they hafta understand all things x...

i've been an xmen fan since i was eleven...there have been good runs and there have been bad...writers and artist have been like cheap suits -- trade them in all the time...

the thing of it is that all the writers and artist want to put their own spin on who the xmen are...outside of lee and ditko, i think claremont has done the best in expressing wh the xmen are as people and how they fit in society.

to write the xmen you must understand the back history of the group...those who come on board need to understand this or be destroyed...

yeah, they've got to many titles, but i discovered the back stories build the future stories...claremont is one of the few xen writers who understands this
and builds around it...

'nuf said...

[Huzzah!]

I dont think you really need to know anything other than the most basic concept, as long as you artfully dodge old things.

If you are going to use Shaw, you need to know about him...and the fact that he isnt a telepath

But if you make something new up, you dont need to know about any canon.

Most current x-writers seem frightened to make something new up

[Badger Boy]

The core X-Men comics are the easiest comic books to write in the world. A writer can butcher beyond recognition all things X-Men, and their core X-Men title will still sell 70K or more each month. The last 5 years worth of X-Men stories have proven this to be true. The core X-Men titles sell on name and character recognition alone.

[Marty4Magik]

The core X-Men comics are the easiest comic books to write in the world. A writer can butcher beyond recognition all things X-Men, and their core X-Men title will still sell 70K or more each month. The last 5 years worth of X-Men stories have proven this to be true. The core X-Men titles sell on name and character recognition alone.

I don't think I ever heard someone disagree with this? :confused:

Guess we all know it, but most people still buy the titles regardless...

[fishtaco]

That's because he tried to exterminate the humans in New York, walking then into incinerators and all. There are a couple more similarities there.I'm aware of that. There are similarities between Hitler and Xavier, too. Brainwashing is what the Hand did to Psylocke. Essentially, you "take away" or alter someone's sense of identity, and give them another.Agreed. I think that Hitler gave the people of Germany a new identity in a way, too. They were so convinced that the Jews were the source of their problems that they actually believed it. In other words, it changed the way they thought. Or, it changed the way they used their brain. Or, it brainwashed them.

Mind-control implies micromanagement, such as forcing somebody by mental will to physically make an action.

Fending off mind control requires mental strength, while fending off brainwashing requires psychological stability (and maybe a little mental strength).

It's different. Psylocke made her own, free will decisions. However, when she mentally killed all of the X-Men to gather the rings, it caused her to change the way she thinks. She was brainwashed.

[Frank]

This is what makes me so dam angry about some of you Claremont Groupies, you talk down to people who liked different things. I loved Claremont's run. I was happy to see the Originals get back to the Mansion and I was happy to see some of the stuff in the 90's happen. You consider them bad, that's cool, but don't talk down to me b/c I don't agree w/ your tastes. I don't see how people can compare stories that were never written to ones that were. Your playing the what if game and it never works. What if I went right instead of left? What if I said this instead of that? What if I was 2 seconds later that would have never happened? It doesnt' work like that, it wasn't written so you can't judge it against stories that were. I respect everyone's opinion on taste and writing and everything but when you sit there and talk down and act arrogant to others taste it pisses me off and it pisses other's off and you start having stuff happening like in the Psylocke thread earlier.

Dude, you said that the Dark Wolverine story would have been bad without having seen it. Who`s the more close-mind in this: The people that feel he would have delivered a great story considering he has had pretty much a perfect score so far(this was the late 80s/early 90s) or somebody that just out-of-the blue without basis for an argument say it would have been bad.

Nobody knows how it would have turned out what he would have done with it since we didn`t see it, but I get the feeling that CC and Jim Lee wouldn`t have left us down. It`s always easier to make negative judgments than positives ones.

[Be Stiff]

Hey guys are we seriously compairing the of the most evil mass-murderers in history to a comic book character

What's happening in this thread

[fishtaco]

Hey guys are we seriously compairing the of the most evil mass-murderers in history to a comic book character

What's happening in this threadNo, I'm comparing two examples of brainwashing in order to show someone how mind control and brainwashing are different.

[THANOS/WOLVERINE]

For the X-men to be successful again as a book they need a few things.

1. Consistant writers. When I say consistant I don't mean 2 or 3 arcs, I mean 2 or 3 years. What build can be done in one arc becuase the next writer wants to do something else.

2. Lots of books are ok as long as they don't crossover. Have Astonishing and New X-men in the Mansion. Have Uncanny be in space and in the outback again. Have X-men travel. This way even though their are a lot of books, each book has only a set number of people to write for.

3. Have the rosters roughly stay the same for as long as the writer is there, menaing 2 to 3 years. Charecters can come on as long as they are not in another book.

4. Let the writers have some say and actually do something innovative and different. Every month its the same old, same old story. Try something new, if it doesn't work don't do it. If it does, good go with it.


That's it. Not that much to it. Develop the 5 to 6 charecters in each book over a 2 to 3 year period and everything will fall into place.

On a side note...
Wolverine: Enemy of the State was complete trash. Wolverine kills some B, C and D list hero's and villians. BIg whoop. He should have torn into half the Marvel Universe and at least killed some bigger stars. Northstar was the biggest star he killed and he was strictly D list in Marvel's eyes.

The Clarment/Wolverine/Hand/Brainwash story would have been pure gold. The whole point was for the hand to brainwash Wolvie and he would start killing real people and fitting the X-men. More than just 1 or 2 issuses like in Enemy of the State. Plus it would have shown the team trying to save him and his road back to normal. Not just one issue and he's ok with killing everone who was a hero.