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View Full Version : Doctor Octopus: Should He Have Stayed Dead?



Venom
04-19-2006, 07:00 AM
I re-read the classic story "Web Of Death" a couple of nights ago and remembered what a fantastic and classic storyline it still is. It was the story where after 30 years back in those days that Doc Ock died at the hands of the legendary Kaine. The story added so much new meaning and depth to Spidey and Doc Ock's relationship by having Ock find out the Web-Head's identity and Octavius thinking that he cannot live without the Wall-Crawler, that he gives meaning to his life. It was very touching and sad when Doc Ock died. Not just a classic, but an iconic villian had died and it looked as though it was the end of an era for Spidey fans everywhere. Of course just over 2 years later Doc Ock was resurrected and he completely forgot who Spider-Man really was thus taking away story potential. Don't get me wrong Doc Ock is one of my top 10 favourite Spider-Man villains of all time and I'm happy he's alive, but he died in such an iconic way it seems a bit insulting to bring him back to life. But then again the Green Goblin died in an iconic way and I'm happy he came back to life. Maybe it's because the Green Goblin was moving forward and Doctor Octopus wasn't as he had his knowledge of who Peter really was erased from him. What do you guys think?

Red Lotus
04-19-2006, 07:37 AM
I Like the story, but I didn't like the ending. He saves Spider-man life and then he's going to jail only to be Killed by Kaine. To me his death was just to show how tough Kaine was so I really dont think that being killed by Kaine is an iconic ending.

As for bring him back. I really didn't mind it too much. But when he did come back didn't the Hand use some type of chip that had Ock's memories when he was the Master Programmer.

Agentum
04-19-2006, 07:56 AM
Overused character that really mostly looks silly, he need to rest a while and come back with something that matters.

Venom
04-19-2006, 08:03 AM
To me his death was just to show how tough Kaine was so I really dont think that being killed by Kaine is an iconic ending.

Sorry I mislead you. I didn't mean "iconic" by how or the way he died. I meant by the impact his death made on people as no one was expecting it. There was a limited series shortly after Doc Ock's temporary death called "Funeral For An Octopus". It was about the characters that knew him and how they were dealing with his death.

Mister Mets
04-19-2006, 10:21 AM
No, for a few reasons.
1. He's one of Spider-Man's greatest enemies.
2. There are great possible stories that no one's done with him. For instance, Mark Millar was the first to do a story in which he meets the Green Goblin.
3. We've gotten some decent stories out of him since his resurrection.
4. He's the villain every writer seems to like. So far, he's the only classic Spider-Man villain JMS has used in his sixty-something issues on the book.
5. He's been in great stories, which will be reprinted forever, meaning new readers will continue to discover him. Which would lead them to look for the issues in which he died, which we lead new readers to the Clone Saga, which is a period best left forgotten.

Dark Soul # 7
04-19-2006, 10:51 AM
I say nay.
His restruction was handled very well, somwhat better than Normanīs. There was a reason for him to come back and it wasnīt a retcon. It showed three great female villains for Spidey, Dr.Octopus II, Stunner and Delilah. Plus the whole story had some really kickass fight-scenes. And the ending with Peter and MJ at the toga party was sweet like candy.
I was more upset by the way Otto died than that he was restructed. Kill off like a nobody by Kaine just like that.
Right now Iīm also upset that nobody has brought up Stunner or Carolyn Trainer since Ottoīs return and that heīs more or less become been used as thug, MTU#14 for example.
Itīs been awhile since Otto did something really worthy of him and his name.
I do hope that PAD will use him.

Nonentity
04-19-2006, 11:13 AM
No, for a few reasons.
1. He's one of Spider-Man's greatest enemies.
2. There are great possible stories that no one's done with him. For instance, Mark Millar was the first to do a story in which he meets the Green Goblin.
3. We've gotten some decent stories out of him since his resurrection.
4. He's the villain every writer seems to like. So far, he's the only classic Spider-Man villain JMS has used in his sixty-something issues on the book.
5. He's been in great stories, which will be reprinted forever, meaning new readers will continue to discover him. Which would lead them to look for the issues in which he died, which we lead new readers to the Clone Saga, which is a period best left forgotten.

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

It's no coincidence that not too long after Ock died, that we had Ock v2.0 show up (what was her name? Something Trainer?). The character is just too good to lose.

Red Lotus
04-19-2006, 01:12 PM
Right now Iīm also upset that nobody has brought up Stunner or Carolyn Trainer since Ottoīs return .

I liked Lady Ock. I thought she could have been a good Spider-man foe and its is to bad that the last time she was use was as a bit player in the Secret War. As for Stunner wasn't she some type of virtual reality hologram thing.

Dark Soul # 7
04-19-2006, 01:19 PM
I liked Lady Ock. I thought she could have been a good Spider-man foe and its is to bad that the last time she was use was as a bit player in the Secret War. As for Stunner wasn't she some type of virtual reality hologram thing.Yep but there was still a real person who used that virtual body. Because she sacrificed herself to revive Dr.Octopus she ended up in a vegetable state. She was Ottoīs true love.

cable guy
04-19-2006, 02:01 PM
I'm glad he's back.

Although I'm glad when most good characters come back from the dead. Unfortunately, it does diminish their greatness sometimes.

Sean Walsh
04-19-2006, 02:36 PM
Sorry I mislead you. I didn't mean "iconic" by how or the way he died. I meant by the impact his death made on people as no one was expecting it.

I do believe that solicits at the time indicated someone would die at the end of both WEB OF LIFE and WEB OF DEATH. And even though Spidey was going thru a lotta crap at the time, I doubt anyone thought it'd be him. That left the villains of those stories - Grim Hunter (meh, no one cared) and Doc Ock. If anything, the vibe regarding Ock'S possible fate was "No, they wouldn't.........NO, THEY WOULDN'T?!?!"

I'm glad he's back, I guess, although I dislike the newer look to him. Granted, he's in shape and not a blubbering fatso (most of the time) - but the classic "white coat/trenchcoat & classic arms" look is THE Doc Ock to me.

And I liked Lady Ock too, FYI. :p

Mister Mets
01-18-2009, 06:11 PM
With the good Doctor scheduled to make his return to the title sometime this year (after an unusually lengthy absence) I thought that this poll might be worth bumping.

oldschool
01-18-2009, 06:34 PM
With the good Doctor scheduled to make his return to the title sometime this year (after an unusually lengthy absence) I thought that this poll might be worth bumping.

Good idea. Now, let us hope that they give this truly elite character the story he deserves and not the villan of the month treatment he has been given far too often. He is so important that an argument can be made that he is actually a more powerful and evil foe than Norman Osborn. It is about time he is portrayed in such a light and not as a pathetic nutjob.

Billium 3
01-18-2009, 07:04 PM
I'm glad Doc Ock came back. When someone mentions Spidey's top villains, he's almost always in the top 5, even 3. However, I do feel as though he hasn't lived up to his potential as of late. I mean, it's been years, in terms of when the story was published, since a good Doc Ock story came out (Or at least one that I've read). His appearance in JMS's run was ok, but nothing that left a really lasting impression, aside from the fact that he was the only classic foe to appear in JMS's run (One of the many reason's I'm not particularly fond of his run). I also hope that when he inevitably returns, they give him his look and costume most commonly associated with John Romita Sr. (The fat guy with a bowl cut in an orange and green jumpsuit that has tentacles that don't have a suction cup look to them). Hell, I'll even settle for Doc Ock in a suit, a look that was popularized by Erik Larson, and in my opinion is not that bad a look. I actually like it, don't get me wrong, but the JR Sr. look is by far my favorite. When Doc Ock comes back, it has to be BIG. It has to prove not only how dangerous he is, but it has to show why he's also regarded for his great intelligence. In can't just be Doc Ock breaks out of jail, goes on a rampage and is jailed after Spidey kicks his ass. If it were up to me, his plot would not involve Spidey at all. I'd just have that Spidey just happens to interfere and winds up in the middle of it all. I'd also like to see Doc Ock not only have to contend with Spider-Man, but perhaps they could renew his rivalry with the recently souped up Hammerhead. It'd be a nice nod to old continuity, as well as a good story, if written correctly.

Keehar
01-18-2009, 07:43 PM
Hell No!!!!

He's one of the greatest Spidey villains of all time. I often think him of him as a Peter Parker gone bad. He's had some dodgy stories in the past [what villain hasn't?] but overall he has a rich comic book history, and had some brilliant clashes with Spidey. Some real edge of the seat stuff. And he's managed to infiltrate Spidey's personal life on several occasions and cause all kinds of mayhem and heartbreak.

I can't imagine Spidey's world without him. And I'm hoping Dan Slott's mention of him making a big return this year is great. Lets see some real classic Doc Ock greatness.

Crimson Knightman
01-18-2009, 08:16 PM
The fact that Doctor Octopus was able to exceed to being Spider-Man's top villain during Norman Osborn's "death" should prove the case as to why he shouldn't have stayed death. There's far too much viable history between Otto and Peter to let go in favor of a new character that never had Doctor Octopus' success to begin with. I hope that whenever Dr. Octopus returns he wears his infamous white business suit because that fits his professional and distinguished demeanor. I never liked the orange/green spandex suit because to me it made Otto come across as a lightweight and there's no way that a narcissist like Otto would ever be caught dead wearing something like that.

I hear Doctor Octopus is returning this year, perhaps he may feud with the Hood or the Kingpin but one thing is certain, he needs to become more than just a revolving door villain. Be that as it may, Dr. Octopus is one of the greatest Marvel villains of all time and his history with Spider-Man. Fantastic Four, Daredevil and many others can verify that. The good doctor has fallen on hard times but that is through no fault of his own. Dr. Octopus is more than capable of carrying a story, the fact that the fans have never forgotten him proves that.

Mister Mets
01-18-2009, 08:45 PM
Good idea. Now, let us hope that they give this truly elite character the story he deserves and not the villan of the month treatment he has been given far too often. He is so important that an argument can be made that he is actually a more powerful and evil foe than Norman Osborn. It is about time he is portrayed in such a light and not as a pathetic nutjob.In this regard, his absence has been a good thing.

He's been used as a punching bag too often when writers just want to show Spider-Man in action (most recently in "My Science Teacher is Spider-Man," but also in issues of Marvel Team Up, Alias, Daredevil and the opening of the "Quality of Life" mini series a few years ago.)

It's off-topic, but is there anyone you guys think would do an especially good job drawing his return storyline? John Romita Jr's already drawn the good doctor, so I'd rather he handle the art chores on a story with a villain he hasn't drawn before (IE- Vulture, Mysterio.) Marcos Martin can do no wrong (I'm really looking forward to his Captain America one-shot) and Phil Jiminez's detailed style could fit the villain well, but is there anyone I'm missing?

JamesOliva
01-18-2009, 09:48 PM
I'm sorry...Web of Death was a classic?:confused:

I love Kaine, but c'mon.:wink:

TROUBLEZ
01-18-2009, 09:58 PM
He's my favorite villain, and for some reason, I've always thought of him as Spidey's arch-enemy.

Winter Bolt
01-18-2009, 10:06 PM
I love the man, but to me he really shines when he's not bent on money problems or the basic evil plan of the week. I'd like to see him actually be a good guy for a year or two, perhaps join the Avengers, and play a part in fixing the mess that Pete made with Mephisto at the cost of becoming evil again. Have the man step in as a father figure for Pete, I'd even have Octavious employ Pete part time from behind the scenes in a great expectations type of way as a benefactor that doesn't really do that much but gives just that little bit of outside support that doesn't spoil him. Probably the first villain on my list I'd like to discover the secret identity.

I don't miss the man though as a solo act or in a group which diminishes him imo. Plenty of past memories I can look fondly about the guy, and would say he's Spidey's arch nemesis on an intellectual level. Hated how he returned, but what can ya do? I'd totally without a thought choose Otto over Norman, it's not even debatable to me.

James Conniff
01-18-2009, 11:40 PM
He was killed by a Clone Saga abomination, so It's good he got brought back.

oldschool
01-19-2009, 03:30 AM
In this regard, his absence has been a good thing.

He's been used as a punching bag too often when writers just want to show Spider-Man in action (most recently in "My Science Teacher is Spider-Man," but also in issues of Marvel Team Up, Alias, Daredevil and the opening of the "Quality of Life" mini series a few years ago.)

It's off-topic, but is there anyone you guys think would do an especially good job drawing his return storyline? John Romita Jr's already drawn the good doctor, so I'd rather he handle the art chores on a story with a villain he hasn't drawn before (IE- Vulture, Mysterio.) Marcos Martin can do no wrong (I'm really looking forward to his Captain America one-shot) and Phil Jiminez's detailed style could fit the villain well, but is there anyone I'm missing?

After Martin and Jiminez, I would say maybe Kitson would do a nice job in drawing The Big O. I would also welcome a return to the classic JR SR look, green jumpsuit and all!!

Rahul
01-19-2009, 03:31 AM
The only things I want dead are the classic interpretations of the tentacles, they look like waldoes than death dealers.

Venom
01-19-2009, 05:41 AM
Wow. Never expected a thread that I started nearly three years ago to be revived. I was 18 and in college when I started this. Now I'm 21, unemployed and looking for work.

We've had some good stories with Doc Ock since his resurrection. Your opinion can change over time as well. And after all these years I've come to the conclusion that it was for the best that he was brought back to life. He's Doctor bloody Octopus! How can you not have Spider-Man without him? I still think that "Web of Death" was one of Ock's best stories though.

Nefarius
01-19-2009, 08:27 AM
I'm sorry...Web of Death was a classic?:confused:

I love Kaine, but c'mon.:wink:

Web of Death was a great story with a shitty end.I loved how they establish Ock-Spidey relationship but his death was a cheap stand for Kaine to look "badass".I was glad that Ock returned back to life but i hope that they would use classic Romita Sr look or Eric Larsen look.I never liked "Matrix" Ock.

worstblogever
01-19-2009, 08:37 AM
Glad he came back from the dead (and I still miss Stunner) but for the life of me, I still wonder why the hell the Hand, an organized group of mystical ninjas felt the need to be involved in his resurrection. He's a westerner, and an odd one at that. I didn't buy their involvement. There had to have been a better plot device to bring him back.

But it's good that he is back, yeah.

yadadaimhollaing
01-19-2009, 08:46 AM
The question could be asked which time :wink:

I haven't read web of death but it just sounds like a bad idea. Such a surprise that the story was written in the 90s

Doc ock should not have ever been "killed" classic villian where his death stories were never any good. Can't wait to see him get a new great story.

B. Kuwanger
01-19-2009, 08:47 AM
I didn't agree with him dying, and I still don't, but I'm not for having him as an active rogue, either. He should have stayed......in the early 90s, I think.

Nefarius
01-19-2009, 09:02 AM
Glad he came back from the dead (and I still miss Stunner) but for the life of me, I still wonder why the hell the Hand, an organized group of mystical ninjas felt the need to be involved in his resurrection. He's a westerner, and an odd one at that. I didn't buy their involvement. There had to have been a better plot device to bring him back.

But it's good that he is back, yeah.

Rose(Jacob Connover) hired the Hand to ressurect Ock because he needed someone strong enough to beat Black Tarantula(who moved to take-over Rose's territory).Also the Hand was in a feud with a ninja clan who worked for Black Taarantula,so it isn't so strange for them to help Rose and reviving Ock.

whiteshark
01-19-2009, 09:06 AM
Doctor Octopus: Should He Have Stayed Dead?

Not in my opinion.
But he defenitily need a serious arc of stories to put him back as one of the best Spider-Man enemy.
The last time i remember to see Doc Octopus as a first class enemy was during the "Return of the Sinister Six" arc.
And that was back in the begining of the 90`s.
And about the artist for this definitive story i can see David Finch doing a good work in this case.

whiteshark
01-19-2009, 09:10 AM
It's off-topic, but is there anyone you guys think would do an especially good job drawing his return storyline? John Romita Jr's already drawn the good doctor, so I'd rather he handle the art chores on a story with a villain he hasn't drawn before (IE- Vulture, Mysterio.)

John Romita Jr's draw the Vulture in Amazing Spider-Man#224.

Mister Mets
01-19-2009, 01:25 PM
John Romita Jr's draw the Vulture in Amazing Spider-Man#224.
His style's become different since then.

Though now it seems that Mike McKone will draw the Vulture's comeback.