WONDER WOMAN: Love, relationships and sexuality

[witchboy]

The new Steve could always be the nephew /namesake of the older Steve , that seems like the best way to go to me ..

[3D Master]

I'd rather see Steve Trevor than a new guy because he's a part of the WW legacy.

Which is the very reason he should NOT be the guy for this Diana.


A lot of people who don't even read comics still know who Steve Trevor is.

Which of course, matters not one insignificant bit.


Steve was the love intrest of the Golden and Silver Age WW . This is the only regular WW/Diana not to have that relationship . If it were done of course , it would be done with a more modern sensibility .
It would be like revamping Superman and creating a new love intrest for him while leaving out Lois Lane .
I love the above dialog of Hippolyta 's reaction to Steve . It could act as a metaphor for coming out , that Hippy is against her daughter having a relationship with a man .

Which is why I largely prefer Japanese mange above comics. They tell a story with magnificent characters, then the story is over, and they start a brand new story, in a brand new setting, with brand new characters. They don't keep dwelling in the past, doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again, and ooh, look out if you might want to do something new; then everyone is suddenly up in arms, because there might be something new in 30 years, the horror!

You want to know one of the major reasons why comic reading is down? Been there, done that.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Which is why I largely prefer Japanese mange above comics. They tell a story with magnificent characters, then the story is over, and they start a brand new story, in a brand new setting, with brand new characters. They don't keep dwelling in the past, doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again, and ooh, look out if you might want to do something new; then everyone is suddenly up in arms, because there might be something new in 30 years, the horror!

You want to know one of the major reasons why comic reading is down? Been there, done that.

There are exceptions to that rule, Dragon Ball Z/GT being the perfect examples.

[3D Master]

There are exceptions to that rule, Dragon Ball Z/GT being the perfect examples.

Wrong. Dragon Ball Z/GT continuously moved forward, with the characters aging, marrying, having children, the children coming to the fore front, and ending.

In fact, the originally it was Toriyama's intention to end Dragon Ball Z at the end of the Frieza saga, with Goku dying. But Dragon Ball was so successful, demands of more from fans and the publisher pushed him into making a new part. Then it happened another time. By the third time, Toriyama kept his foot down and kept "no", but Toei Animation asked and got permission to continue Dragon Ball on their own, resulting in the less than good Dragon Ball GT.

Throughout all the continuations, however, the characters grew, aged, had childdren, who grew and aged; they did not remain 22 years old for 40/70 years straight, repeating the same stuff over and over again. At the end, Dragon Ball lasted no more than 10 years, 12 if you count GT, and it had an (several) larger enclosed stories that ended.

[witchboy]

Tenchi Muyo anime at least kept rebooting their continuity evert season it seems like .

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Please let´s leave DBZ outta this thread, I just ate...

I´m not even asking for dramatic changes in the status quo of Wonder Woman´s love life, I could go with pretty much anyone as long as it´s not Superman/Batman/Aquaman/Whateverman.

I just want there to BE a status quo since right nwo we have nothing.
WW is a character with GREAT potential but there´s more to life than "my great big holy mission". She needs desires. An unrequited love interest. A craving for Oreos. An apetite for ballroom dancing.

Something.

Anything.

Except Batman/Superman/Whateverman. EW.

[witchboy]

ITA WW needs a love life of some sort .

[pariah-1972]

I say hook her up with Wolverine ....

























(hides)

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I say hook her up with Wolverine ....

Get in line.

There´s a whole list of guys in line to add her to their favorite hero´s Trophy Room.
Batman fans, Superman fans, Aquaman fans, Thor fans... it´s really sad.

Pretty much everyone wants their fave superguy to be the one to
"tap that star spangled ass".

[3D Master]

Tenchi Muyo anime at least kept rebooting their continuity evert season it seems like .

:confused:

What has that got to do with anything?

[pariah-1972]

Get in line.

There´s a whole list of guys in line to add her to their favorite hero´s Trophy Room.
Batman fans, Superman fans, Aquaman fans, Thor fans... it´s really sad.

Pretty much everyone wants their fave superguy to be the one toYou do know i was being factious right?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

You do know i was being factious right?

I´m sure you were.

But throw a rock in the air and it´ll probably land on a fanboy who wants his fave hero to score with her.

Which is another reason why whoever gets to be the lucky guy/girl to earn her attention, it should be in HER terms. Her book. Her love interest.

Last thing I want is to see an eclipsed Diana humouring hubbie in the Wayne manor/Fortress of Solitude.

[Early]

I think Wonder Woman need a woman.

Me too. Her and most of the Amazons would almost obviously be lesbians or bisexuals. A island full of half nude woman. What do they do when they get hot and horny? No men to dream about only woman.

[Tyr]

Please let´s leave DBZ outta this thread, I just ate...

I´m not even asking for dramatic changes in the status quo of Wonder Woman´s love life, I could go with pretty much anyone as long as it´s not Superman/Batman/Aquaman/Whateverman.

I just want there to BE a status quo since right nwo we have nothing.
WW is a character with GREAT potential but there´s more to life than "my great big holy mission". She needs desires. An unrequited love interest. A craving for Oreos. An apetite for ballroom dancing.

Something.

Anything.

Except Batman/Superman/Whateverman. EW.

As far as DBZ goes, I agree, for the love of God, please lets not talk about tha in this thread.

Superman + Wonder Woman: Not really all that exciting even with Alex Ross'es take on it. Besides Supes has Lois, which is as it should be

Aquaman + Wonder Woman: Aquaman already has a queen, and if he doesn't in some mulitverse somewhere he should.

Batman + Wonder Woman: I still haveta say I like this one, despite them being my two DC favs. Yes I know Bats has had several love interests already but most of those are trying rule the world, are in and out of prison, screw with his mind, or all of the above. Diana seems to be the only woman in his life where that isn't the case.

[3D Master]

Me too. Her and most of the Amazons would almost obviously be lesbians or bisexuals. A island full of half nude woman. What do they do when they get hot and horny? No men to dream about only woman.

Dreaming about men shouldn't be problem, you don't actually need men in order to dream about them. Actually doing something with them, however, requires their presence. :D

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Me too. Her and most of the Amazons would almost obviously be lesbians or bisexuals. A island full of half nude woman. What do they do when they get hot and horny? No men to dream about only woman.


The absence of women doesn´t make men automatically gay, why would the absence of men automatically make women lesbian?

[3D Master]

The absence of women doesn´t make men automatically gay, why would the absence of men automatically make women lesbian?

No, but most people, some 80 to 85% are bisexual to certain extends to begin with, they just suppress one side of their sexuality because it isn't socially and culturally acceptable to have that other side. When you remove the opposite gender, you'll find a person is suddenly quite capable of having sex with the same, despite the taboo.

Amazons don't have the taboo to begin with; so with no men around, they will looking for comfort, love, companionship, and yes, sex, with the other women of the tribe, and they'll find it.

[Chiroptera]

No, but most people, some 80 to 85% are bisexual to certain extends to begin with, they just suppress one side of their sexuality because it isn't socially and culturally acceptable to have that other side. When you remove the opposite gender, you'll find a person is suddenly quite capable of having sex with the same, despite the taboo.

Amazons don't have the taboo to begin with; so with no men around, they will looking for comfort, love, companionship, and yes, sex, with the other women of the tribe, and they'll find it.

Thank you, 3D you said this WAY better than I was able to. There was actually a study about this to, don't remember which university it was; but not only did it reveal both genders are more than typically Bi and merely supressing their interest in the same sex, but it also revealed that women are less likely to supress their attraction to the opposite sex, and more likely to embrace it.

Also, can't find the post at the moment, but someone mentioned Oracle and Wonder Woman. This actually sounds interesting to me, I wouldn't mind seeing that. Then, I also wouldn't mind seeing Dick and Babs finally hook up...

The more I think on it, the more I think I'd like to see Diana hook up with someone normal, and NOT have it be a constant problem in her life. Usually works out okay for Animal Man, eh? I'd like to see another hero who's love life doesn't directly impact their super heroics every day and who's lover isn't a hero themselves.
As said before, I still greatly would prefer to see Wonder Woman with anther woman, but I know DC will never do it.

[3D Master]

Thank you, 3D you said this WAY better than I was able to. There was actually a study about this to, don't remember which university it was; but not only did it reveal both genders are more than typically Bi and merely supressing their interest in the same sex, but it also revealed that women are less likely to supress their attraction to the opposite sex, and more likely to embrace it.

You mean suppress their attraction to the same sex, don't you?

Anyway, yes, that's true, and really quite obvious when you think about it. For hundreds of thousands of years, women got to see the nurturing kind side in other women. While men went out hunting, and got to see the most vicious, least caring, most dangerous side in other men. It's not too surprising that women would be more inclined to be with other women, than men with other men.

[J. Robb]

The absence of women doesn´t make men automatically gay, why would the absence of men automatically make women lesbian?
You mean all those prison movies have been lying to me??

[Eliseu Gouveia]

You mean all those prison movies have been lying to me??


You DO know that the men who engage in same-sex relations in prison are not necessarily gay, right?

Same reason why the fact that a great portion of mankind has repressed bi-inclinatrions doesn´t mean they would change their gender orientation overnight.

I remember reading a similar study with that same exact 80-85% figure some 20 years ago and it´s not as black and white as you folks make it out to be, .

IIRC, "Bi inclinations" includes everything, from men who would find the likes of Brad Pitt somewhat attractive (duh!) to women who were one martini away from jumping into their best female friends panties.
It´s a sliding scale that covers an incredibly broad spectrum and I think it proves nothing to this discussion at hand.

Heterosexual amazons may "get busy" with each other in the absence of men, but that doesn´t mean they would give up on men altogether.

Much like men who have same-sex relations in prison and return to "hetero normality" the instant they get out of jail.

[NightBirdFlying]

Ok, so while this post is WW related, its not exactly on topic (more like it's not on topic), i thought it would be pointless to make a thread for the following...

Ok, so we know that in the 'upcoming' (my arse) WW movie Diana is going to be in her late teens early 20's, so why not cast Megan Fox(of Transformers fame) as Diana.

What do u guys reckon?

Also i have always though of Diana as Bi, mainly because i think every1 is Bi, oh and now i have the study one of u guys posted about 2 use as ammo in the next pub chat i have, awesomeness.

[pariah-1972]

I honestly cant see why the amazons would feel the need to engage in sexual relations they could quite possibly be above such things.
not to mention they all call each other sisters so that would be kinda creepy.

[3D Master]

You DO know that the men who engage in same-sex relations in prison are not necessarily gay, right?

Same reason why the fact that a great portion of mankind has repressed bi-inclinatrions doesn´t mean they would change their gender orientation overnight.

I remember reading a similar study with that same exact 80-85% figure some 20 years ago and it´s not as black and white as you folks make it out to be, .

IIRC, "Bi inclinations" includes everything, from men who would find the likes of Brad Pitt somewhat attractive (duh!) to women who were one martini away from jumping into their best female friends panties.
It´s a sliding scale that covers an incredibly broad spectrum and I think it proves nothing to this discussion at hand.

Heterosexual amazons may "get busy" with each other in the absence of men, but that doesn´t mean they would give up on men altogether.

Much like men who have same-sex relations in prison and return to "hetero normality" the instant they get out of jail.

We never said anything about giving up on men, we said they'd be with the other women in a lesbian relationship.


I honestly cant see why the amazons would feel the need to engage in sexual relations they could quite possibly be above such things.

If they're "above such things", then I say, ignore them completely and distrust everything they say or do. Humans who are "above companionship and love" creep me out.


not to mention they all call each other sisters so that would be kinda creepy.

So does the average feminist clique, whether lesbians, bisexuals or no. Doesn't suddenly make it creepy or incestuous.

[pariah-1972]

We never said anything about giving up on men, we said they'd be with the other women in a lesbian relationship.



If they're "above such things", then I say, ignore them completely and distrust everything they say or do. Humans who are "above companionship and love" creep me out.



So does the average feminist clique, whether lesbians, bisexuals or no. Doesn't suddenly make it creepy or incestuous.But they are not really humans are they? theres a lot of things about "mans world" that they don't understand and sex and all that other stuff may not hold much water with them especially since they have no need to pro-create.
when they call each other sisters i think its more than just a saying in some ways they could all be related.

[3D Master]

But they are not really humans are they? theres a lot of things about "mans world" that they don't understand and sex and all that other stuff may not hold much water with them especially since they have no need to pro-create.
when they call each other sisters i think its more than just a saying in some ways they could all be related.

Which is why would I would distrust them completely.

They are human. Amazons are human, they always have been, ever since 3.5 thousand years ago when they roamed the Earth.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

We never said anything about giving up on men, we said they'd be with the other women in a lesbian relationship.

And that´s the problem right there.

Lesbian relations mean that the amazons are romantically or sexually attracted exclusively to women.
No men allowed.

I understand some (many?) amazons (heterosexual or not) being involved in same-sex relations.
After all, some men do the exact same thing after some jail time, why wouldn´t the amazons after milennia of drought?

But the moment you throw the word "lesbian" in there, you are excluding the possibility of any amazon ever lbeing attracted to men - which is not the case.

Diana´s hetero status has been confirmed time and time again, from her attraction to Superman (ugh!) to Batman (bleargh!) to Steve Trevor and Trevor Barnes.

it´s her "bi" status that remains to be proved.

[pariah-1972]

Which is why would I would distrust them completely.

They are human. Amazons are human, they always have been, ever since 3.5 thousand years ago when they roamed the Earth.They are almost immortal than and offspring of the gods which makes them more than human to me.

[Chiroptera]

In continuity many of the Amazons on the island ARE lesbian, and some are straight, some go both ways; so no, they're not "above" a physical relationship. They're human. Immortal human, yes, but still human; a basic need of all humans is connection with one another.
Yes many humans are very introverted, but we all crave that desire to feel a deep connection with atleast one other person in life; such connections have always been portrayed as being even more important to the amazons than it is to modern humans in the rest of the comic world.

The Amazons support peace and love in all it's forms, they always have. (Well, they did until Circe resurrected Hippolyta and convinced her to attack USA. )

[3D Master]

And that´s the problem right there.

Lesbian relations mean that the amazons are romantically or sexually attracted exclusively to women.
No men allowed.

But the moment you throw the word "lesbian" in there, you are excluding the possibility of any amazon ever lbeing attracted to men - which is not the case.

No, BEING a lesbian, means you are attracted exclusively to women.

Being IN a lesbian relationship, means simply a woman is in a relationship with another woman. Whatever sexuality either woman has, and whether they're attracted to men or not, does not matter one bit. Whether or not other women, and/or men may join one or both women, is entirely up to the women and what rules they set up for their relationship. If it is monogamous, then men are not allowed, but not because they're men, but because they're other people, and monogamous means no other people, regardless of gender, would be allowed.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

No, BEING a lesbian, means you are attracted exclusively to women.

Being IN a lesbian relationship, means simply a woman is in a relationship with another woman. Whatever sexuality either woman has, and whether they're attracted to men or not, does not matter one bit. Whether or not other women, and/or men may join one or both women, is entirely up to the women and what rules they set up for their relationship. If it is monogamous, then men are not allowed, but not because they're men, but because they're other people, and monogamous means no other people, regardless of gender, would be allowed.


I´m pretty sure that assessment is not very accurate but I´ll let it go on the grounds that I don´t want to prolongue that tangent further.

What I think IS safe to say is that the amazons are not lesbians just because they´re stuck in an island with no men.
That´s not how human sexuality works.

[Pink Bat Max]

I think it's unfair even to label the amazons 'gay, straight, or bi'. These terms and the ideas they represent exist as concepts relative to our culture. An ancient Greek culture exclusively made of up women would likely not even think in those terms.

[witchboy]

Excelelnt point Pink Bat Max , you're so right . We are imposing our own cultural ideas on the Amazons with this train of thought .

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I think it's unfair even to label the amazons 'gay, straight, or bi'. These terms and the ideas they represent exist as concepts relative to our culture. An ancient Greek culture exclusively made of up women would likely not even think in those terms.

True, but regardless of their cultural landscape they´re still essentially human which means that we should still be able to determine the basics of their relationships.

A gay os straight relation are still a gay or straight relation, be it here, in ancient Botswana or 1,000 BC Greece.

[witchboy]

We pretty much know that some Amazons are sexually/romanticly involved with each other , but they probably don't feel the need to label their sexuality .
Why would a society of women who lived millenia without men be hung up on sexual orientation labels after all.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

We pretty much know that some Amazons are sexually/romanticly involved with each other , but they probably don't feel the need to label their sexuality .
Why would a society of women who lived millenia without men be hung up on sexual orientation labels after all.

I don´t think the issue was brought up til you posted it just now.

From the lenght of this thread, we know that people are very curious about their sexuality but nobody has wondered how or even if the amazons label themselves.

[Pink Bat Max]

True, but regardless of their cultural landscape they´re still essentially human which means that we should still be able to determine the basics of their relationships.

A gay os straight relation are still a gay or straight relation, be it here, in ancient Botswana or 1,000 BC Greece.

Not so.... 'gay' and 'straight' are terms that exist in the context of a society that sees one as normative sexual behaviour, and the other as non-normative. Sure, a female/female relation is still a female/female relation, but out of social context, it would not necessarily be considered as anything requiring a label. What I'm saying is that given the context of a society where, frankly, female/female relations are the only option, it doesn't make sense that they would identify with the term 'gay' or 'lesbian.' And, in fact, they may be bewildered by outsiders coming in and feeling the need to label them as anything.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Not so.... 'gay' and 'straight' are terms that exist in the context of a society that sees one as normative sexual behaviour, and the other as non-normative. Sure, a female/female relation is still a female/female relation, but out of social context, it would not necessarily be considered as anything requiring a label. What I'm saying is that given the context of a society where, frankly, female/female relations are the only option, it doesn't make sense that they would identify with the term 'gay' or 'lesbian.' And, in fact, they may be bewildered by outsiders coming in and feeling the need to label them as anything.

That would be the case if there were themyscirian amazons in real life.

But since they´re just objects of fiction for us to conjecture about, I think we´ve got every right to do so regardless of whether they´d like it or not if they were real people.

IMHO, any conjectures about amazon sexuality is perfectly sound since they are, for all intents and purposes, human.

If the amazons were vulcans, skrulls or yellow fear monsters, then yes, our scales of reference would probably have to be completely thrown out the window.

[Chiroptera]

Not so.... 'gay' and 'straight' are terms that exist in the context of a society that sees one as normative sexual behaviour, and the other as non-normative. Sure, a female/female relation is still a female/female relation, but out of social context, it would not necessarily be considered as anything requiring a label. What I'm saying is that given the context of a society where, frankly, female/female relations are the only option, it doesn't make sense that they would identify with the term 'gay' or 'lesbian.' And, in fact, they may be bewildered by outsiders coming in and feeling the need to label them as anything.

I made this same point in my initial post some 8 pages or so back I believe. I completely agree, I don't think it's fair at all to be giving the themyscirans any mortal label of sexuality. Again, I refer to previous statements by Wonder Woman herself. There was the time, for example, when she and J'onn Jonnz were discussing what love means to normal humans, J'onn mentioned that the love he felt eminate from Diana was different from love felt by Superman. J'onn was curious as to why and Diana said something along the lines of "Love is different where I come from. Our society existed long before modern man's did, Love wasn't categorized with same sex or opposite sex. It was just love. If you loved someone that was all that mattered, the gender, the race, the culture, that was unimportant, what was important was that you loved them, unconditionally."

There have been plenty of other moments like that in JLA and in Rucka and Perez's runs on Wonder Woman. For me, it is one of the things I love most about her and the Amazons. They're warriors, but their ultimate goal is peace, and love towards others. It's sort've the old "Peace on earth good will toward men" message with a slight spin on it.

Personally, the Amazon's take on love always made alot more sense to me than anything we here in the real world did with love, the whole idea of categorizing the way someone loves another person, based on gender or race or anything else... "Gay, Lesbian, Interacial" all those labels disgust me. It seems insulting to the very concept of what love is, the unrelenting compassion and care for another person you've grown close to. That shouldn't be inhibited, shifted, or changed, based on their sex or their skin tone or what they believe in.

[3D Master]

Not so.... 'gay' and 'straight' are terms that exist in the context of a society that sees one as normative sexual behaviour, and the other as non-normative. Sure, a female/female relation is still a female/female relation, but out of social context, it would not necessarily be considered as anything requiring a label. What I'm saying is that given the context of a society where, frankly, female/female relations are the only option, it doesn't make sense that they would identify with the term 'gay' or 'lesbian.' And, in fact, they may be bewildered by outsiders coming in and feeling the need to label them as anything.

Which of course matters not one bit on whether or not Amazons are in relationships with each other, whatever you want to call or not call those relationships, and whether or not Wonder Woman would be interested in male, female, or both companionship. So why the hell are we discussing a naming-scheme now?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I made this same point in my initial post some 8 pages or so back I believe. I completely agree, I don't think it's fair at all to be giving the themyscirans any mortal label of sexuality. Again, I refer to previous statements by Wonder Woman herself. There was the time, for example, when she and J'onn Jonnz were discussing what love means to normal humans, J'onn mentioned that the love he felt eminate from Diana was different from love felt by Superman. J'onn was curious as to why and Diana said something along the lines of "Love is different where I come from. Our society existed long before modern man's did, Love wasn't categorized with same sex or opposite sex. It was just love. If you loved someone that was all that mattered, the gender, the race, the culture, that was unimportant, what was important was that you loved them, unconditionally."

There have been plenty of other moments like that in JLA and in Rucka and Perez's runs on Wonder Woman. For me, it is one of the things I love most about her and the Amazons. They're warriors, but their ultimate goal is peace, and love towards others. It's sort've the old "Peace on earth good will toward men" message with a slight spin on it.

Personally, the Amazon's take on love always made alot more sense to me than anything we here in the real world did with love, the whole idea of categorizing the way someone loves another person, based on gender or race or anything else... "Gay, Lesbian, Interacial" all those labels disgust me. It seems insulting to the very concept of what love is, the unrelenting compassion and care for another person you've grown close to. That shouldn't be inhibited, shifted, or changed, based on their sex or their skin tone or what they believe in.

That works well in theory, but as we´ve come to learn, the amazons are all too human, able to harbour the same petty feelings regular humans have.
It´s the whole "do as I preach, not as I do".

On a personal note, I like your interpretation of the amazons. I really do.

But when we get to the bottom line, I really don´t like closed societies that forbid the presence of someone because of some attribute (race, creed or, in this case, gender).
Socieites that say "We welcome you with open arms.......... unless you´re a man/black/jew/whatever".

[3D Master]

That works well in theory, but as we´ve come to learn, the amazons are all too human, able to harbour the same petty feelings regular humans have.
It´s the whole "do as I preach, not as I do".

On a personal note, I like your interpretation of the amazons. I really do.

But when we get to the bottom line, I really don´t like closed societies that forbid the presence of someone because of some attribute (race, creed or, in this case, gender).
Socieites that say "We welcome you with open arms.......... unless you´re a man/black/jew/whatever".

Worse:

"Women are equal to men! We love men! We've sent Wonder Woman to you, to teach you how to living in equality and peace with the other gender, of course, we haven't seen that other gender, men, in millennia, don't want to see men, and if men try to land on our lands we'll kill them, but eh."

Scary stuff.

[Chiroptera]

I'd say by this point we've come down to just personal opinion rather than what can truly be applied to the Amazons in the comics. I mean, personally, I've not observed the whole anti-male shtick in a long while myself, if anything the Amazons have seemed disappointed in humanity as a whole these days not just men. As for men not being welcomed on their island normally, that was one of the charges of the goddesses when the Amazons were made in the comics; atleast originally, they were told to make Themyscira a sanctuary for women only. You can hardly blame them for wanting to keep men out... If some angry ancient dieties told me "Keep women out of your house or face our wrath" I know that'd be enough to make me go celebate, I don't want to find out what 6000 year old ancient gods can think up to punish me with.

At the least, in Amazons Attack the amazons don't seem particularly set on targetting males, they've come across as generally contemptuous for the entirety of humanity, they seem to have decided that their attempts to bring peace to the patriach wolrd is futile, so they're just doing as their senile revived Queen says and killing anyone that gets in the way.

In either case, we've kina skewed way off topic here, what was supposed to be a discussion of Wondy has now branched off into a discussion of the society she hails from. I'm going to just let it rest from here, I don't think there's much more to be gained from the discussion aside from us just reposting earlier points or restating arguements we've already made. :p

[Pink Bat Max]

Which of course matters not one bit on whether or not Amazons are in relationships with each other, whatever you want to call or not call those relationships, and whether or not Wonder Woman would be interested in male, female, or both companionship. So why the hell are we discussing a naming-scheme now?

Well, obviously /you're/ not, and since it seems to bother you that others are, good for you for not tossing in your two cents there. Oh, wait....

As for why? In any discussion it helps to define the terms being used. This helps prevent miscommunication.

[3D Master]

Well, obviously /you're/ not, and since it seems to bother you that others are, good for you for not tossing in your two cents there. Oh, wait....

As for why? In any discussion it helps to define the terms being used. This helps prevent miscommunication.

Huh? But you're defining the terms being used, you're trying to define, or not define, what the Amazons might define things as. Which, quite frankly, is irrelevant to the discussion.

[Pink Bat Max]

Huh? But you're defining the terms being used, you're trying to define, or not define, what the Amazons might define things as. Which, quite frankly, is irrelevant to the discussion.

Not at all. I'm merely saying that our understanding of sexuality and that of the Amazons are not necessarily the same. The terms we use grow out of our understanding, which seems to be why you feel we've gotten down to a discussion on labels.

But really, this little bit of quibbling seems to be losing steam, doesn't it?

[3D Master]

Not at all. I'm merely saying that our understanding of sexuality and that of the Amazons are not necessarily the same.

Which doesn't matter.


But really, this little bit of quibbling seems to be losing steam, doesn't it?

Indeed.

[Tyr]

Thank you, 3D you said this WAY better than I was able to. There was actually a study about this to, don't remember which university it was; but not only did it reveal both genders are more than typically Bi and merely supressing their interest in the same sex, but it also revealed that women are less likely to supress their attraction to the opposite sex, and more likely to embrace it.


Determining weather or not everyone is gay...theres a good use of scientific method if ever I saw one :p

To be honest I'd take all scientific studies with a grain of salt. Especially if I don't know which University it was, or anything about said University. For that matter I would want to know more abou the data the used to come to this conclusion.

As for our assumptions on weather or not the Amazon's are gay...I think I read somewhere that Hipolytte hinted at the fact of lesbian relationships on Paradise Island. However I'm not sure where that came from, and since some stuff that has to do with Wonder Woman gets thrown out the window anyway, I'm not sure it sticks.

Finally Bruce + Diana, just picked up Jla #90, its not a straight story about their love as it is a exploration of the possibilities. One such one was having Wondy go down the dark path and becoming the next Batwoman, with a cool costume to boot, another had Bruce seeing the light and having a not so cool costume to boot. Also for the record it appears it was Diana who entered Manhunter's machine not Bruce.

[witchboy]

I know at some point we see two Amazons in bed togather, it may have been during Perez's run , but I'm not sure . There are a lot of Amazons , statistically there would be a fair number of homosexual and bisexual women among them even discounting the fact that they've lived in a single sex society for thousands of years.

[Pink Bat Max]

I know at some point we see two Amazons in bed togather, it may have been during Perez's run , but I'm not sure . There are a lot of Amazons , statistically there would be a fair number of homosexual and bisexual women among them even discounting the fact that they've lived in a single sex society for thousands of years.

Perez did establish it, yes. Forget the issue number, though.

[3D Master]

Determining weather or not everyone is gay...theres a good use of scientific method if ever I saw one :p

Bisexual is NOT gay.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Bisexual is NOT gay.

LOL

Yeah, I thought most people here understood the difference.

[Tyr]

Bisexual is NOT gay.

Oh thats right the study was about bisexuality, meaning sometimes its gay and sometimes it not, sorry my bad.

Well mistakes aside what it really all comes down to at least on this thread, is that were dealing with the same sex part, thats really what this debate is all about right? I mean I don't see a lot of folks will be kicking up much of fuss over Wonder Woman having heterosexual realtionships, or for that matter her people.

[3D Master]

Oh thats right the study was about bisexuality, meaning sometimes its gay and sometimes it not, sorry my bad.

No, that's ALWAYS bi.


Well mistakes aside what it really all comes down to at least on this thread, is that were dealing with the same sex part, thats really what this debate is all about right? I mean I don't see a lot of folks will be kicking up much of fuss over Wonder Woman having heterosexual realtionships, or for that matter her people.

You weren't commenting on Wonder Woman, you were commenting on the study.

[Tyr]

No, that's ALWAYS bi.

You weren't commenting on Wonder Woman, you were commenting on the study.

Ok fine, Bi means having sexual relations with both the same and opposite sexes, although normally you don't see both at the same time though threesomes are known to happen. Hence sometimes they may have heterosexual or straight sexual relationships, while at other times they have homosexual or gay ones. And I made an error, the study was about bisexual relationships and not strictly homosexual, there I think that about covers it.

And as for the study, I still take the findings with a grain of salt, just as I take any study with a grain of salt without knowing about the data they polled from and what university it came from. In my opinion to consider a fact is also to consider the source.

As for Wonder Woman, I was trying to address the overall topic of this dicussion not just the study.

[3D Master]

Ok fine, Bi means having sexual relations with both the same and opposite sexes, although normally you don't see both at the same time though threesomes are known to happen. Hence sometimes they may have heterosexual or straight sexual relationships, while at other times they have homosexual or gay ones. And I made an error, the study was about bisexual relationships and not strictly homosexual, there I think that about covers it.

No, bisexual means being sexually attracted to both genders. You do not have to have sex with either or any of the genders to be bisexual. Which is rather the whole outcome of the study: nearly everyone is bisexual, but most people suppress one side of their sexuality.

[Pink Bat Max]

No, bisexual means being sexually attracted to both genders. You do not have to have sex with either or any of the genders to be bisexual. Which is rather the whole outcome of the study: nearly everyone is bisexual, but most people suppress one side of their sexuality.

"None of which matters."

Sorry, couldn't resist. Wicked of me, I suppose.

[Tyr]

No, bisexual means being sexually attracted to both genders. You do not have to have sex with either or any of the genders to be bisexual. Which is rather the whole outcome of the study: nearly everyone is bisexual, but most people suppress one side of their sexuality.

Well then there, that should about cover it :)

With that I believe we can put the proper definition of bisexual behind us and talke about the study itself.

Scientific studies are iffy things, most of the time where dealing with the unknown and making educated guesses, until someone proves that educated guess wrong somewhere down the road. Being I don't know anything about the university that conducted this study, and that it was done 20 years ago, I'm skeptical.

Scientists once said eggs were good for us...then some other scientist came along and said egss were bad, then some more came along and said a part of the egg is good and a part of it is bad.

[3D Master]

Well then there, that should about cover it :)

With that I believe we can put the proper definition of bisexual behind us and talke about the study itself.

Scientific studies are iffy things, most of the time where dealing with the unknown and making educated guesses, until someone proves that educated guess wrong somewhere down the road. Being I don't know anything about the university that conducted this study, and that it was done 20 years ago, I'm skeptical.

Scientists once said eggs were good for us...then some other scientist came along and said egss were bad, then some more came along and said a part of the egg is good and a part of it is bad.

Except, that since that study, every single piece of evidence we've unearthed, and every single honest study done since, supports the findings of this study. We know we have both male and female characteristics in us, both male and female sex hormones, we also figured out since, that although DNA are the building blocks, it's hormones that are actually the architects and brick layers. Hormones determine where what grows and how it grows. More male hormones equals a more male brain, regardless of that Y-chromosome being present, and the more female hormones the female the brain. It is then, very obvious and logical, that we all have male and female sexuality locked inside of us; aka we are all to certain extends bisexual.

Males in prison a long known evidence that supports this; if you were truly 100% straight, you couldn't be with a man no matter what.

Which brings us back to the Amazons; if we're all to certain extends bisexual, so will the Amazons. And now I'm repeating myself: with nothing but women on that island, and these women looking for love, support, companionship and yes sex, they'll find it, with members of the only gender available.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I would love to see this study myself before I can question or approve its findings.

What I do know is that there was a similar study a while ago that came to the same conclusion and pretty much anything was enough to warrant you a bi status.
He likes pink shirts? He must be bi.
She likes action movies? She must be bi.

If there is one thing certain about human nature is that it´s not black and white.

There isn´t just three sexual status amongst us (hetero, bi and gay).

There´s hetero, then a WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLE scale of grays inbetween (i.e. bi) and then gay.

According to that study, this whooooooooooooooooole scale of grays includes everything that is not exclusive (.e. hetero and gay), from men who aren´t sexually attracted to other men but aree willing to concede that Brad Pitt is cute to women who would never sleep with other women but don´t mind hugging them in an emotional moment.

So, boys, if you ever see a guy combing his hair longer than the standard 3 seconds, pay attention: according to this study, he must be bi. :p

[3D Master]

I would love to see this study myself before I can question or approve its findings.

What I do know is that there was a similar study a while ago that came to the same conclusion and pretty much anything was enough to warrant you a bi status.
He likes pink shirts? He must be bi.
She likes action movies? She must be bi.

No, that's ridiculous. Only whether or not you are attracted to both sexes are you bi. It has nothing to do with liking shirts or certain movies.


If there is one thing certain about human nature is that it´s not black and white.

There isn´t just three sexual status amongst us (hetero, bi and gay).

There´s hetero, then a WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLE scale of grays inbetween (i.e. bi) and then gay.

That would be four: you're forgetting a-sexual (no interest in sex and genders at all.) 100% bi - being able to fall in love and lust with both genders with equal ease - is one extreme on a circle, hetero is one extreme, gay is extreme, and a-sexual is an extreme. Human sexuality lies in the spectrum of that circle; and the closer to the extremes, the less there are. Interestingly enough, by definition, hetero means being only sexually attracted to opposite sex, and gay means being only sexually attracted to the same sex - this means that the moment you are not solely attracted to either, you're automatically to certain extends bi.

It also means, that true straight, and true gay, probably doesn't exist, or is so extremely rare it could be considered a syndrome. (Indeed, there are men who had so much testosterone, and so little estrogen during the formation of they're brains, they seem to lack any female trait, can completely forget others, and are practically unable to understand other people's emotions, especially female ones - these would probably also be, completely straight - and similarly women who had so much estrogen they have virtually nothing male inside of them. These conditions are indeed syndromes.

(The other end of the extreme, are men who had so much estrogen their brains grew so female, they feel like they are women trapped in a male body, and the same for women who feel like they are men trapped in a female body.)


According to that study, this whooooooooooooooooole scale of grays includes everything that is not exclusive (.e. hetero and gay), from men who aren´t sexually attracted to other men but aree willing to concede that Brad Pitt is cute to women who would never sleep with other women but don´t mind hugging them in an emotional moment.

Are they actually not sexually attracted to men, or do they just claim they are not attracted to men. You should look how many men going in prison claim to not be sexually attracted to men, and then inside have sex with them after all. This is where the whole, "suppress one side of their sexually" comes in.

It also rather shows the reason WHY so many of us are to certain extends bisexual. After all, if you cannot see what is attractive in your own gender, how can you make yourself attractive to the opposite one?


So, boys, if you ever see a guy combing his hair longer than the standard 3 seconds, pay attention: according to this study, he must be bi. :p

And that is, again, ridiculous. No study on what gender one is attracted to, will ever bother with hair combing because it doesn't have anything to do with other.

[Pennyghost]

Is there any chance we could *not* philosophize about the nature of bisexuliaty and instead talk about who would work or not work well with Diana?

Any chance?

If not Diana herself, I think it would be nice if she was confronted with romance in her book anyway. Maybe have her help a pair of tragic lovers. Or have a romance happen as a side storyline in her supporting cast. Isn't Wondergirl having some problems in the romance department around now?

And some romance doesn't have to be a fullblown relationship. How about some charismatic ambivalent villain who is in love with her. Kind of like how Talia is to Batman.

[SensorBoy]

although DNA are the building blocks, it's hormones that are actually the architects and brick layers. Hormones determine where what grows and how it grows.

Incorrect.

Proteins (expressed from the DNA) determine what structures appear, where and (to a great extent) when.

Hormones are regulatory biochemicals, determining growth rates, or lack thereof, and activation/inhibition of physiological responses and phases.

Nothing happens in the human body (without outside intervention) unless there is a protein expressed for it. No protein is expressed unless the corresponding gene is present (and active).

It all reduces back to the DNA.

My primary research area was IGF-1 stimulation/inhibition.

BTW, "male" and "female" hormones (by which I take it you mean Estrogens and Androgens) are classified primarily based on their secondary sex effects on pubescent juveniles. Not by their behavioural effects (iow, Estrogen does not make you "act female", nor do Androgens make you "act feminine").
In the higher primates, behavioural influence of hormones and pheromones is considered near-vestigial, save on the gross scale (massive influxes/reductions of hormones can cause behavioural shifts, but on a clinical level, such as depression or pathological aggression and activity levels, not gender roles).

[Pennyghost]

Please guys, consider making a separate Off Topic thread for this. And you know, posting sources (wikipedia is your friend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexuality#Modern_Western_prevalence_of_bisexuali ty)) especially when you are throwing around supposed research statistics.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

No, that's ridiculous. Only whether or not you are attracted to both sexes are you bi. It has nothing to do with liking shirts or certain movies.



That would be four: you're forgetting a-sexual (no interest in sex and genders at all.) 100% bi - being able to fall in love and lust with both genders with equal ease - is one extreme on a circle, hetero is one extreme, gay is extreme, and a-sexual is an extreme. Human sexuality lies in the spectrum of that circle; and the closer to the extremes, the less there are. Interestingly enough, by definition, hetero means being only sexually attracted to opposite sex, and gay means being only sexually attracted to the same sex - this means that the moment you are not solely attracted to either, you're automatically to certain extends bi.

It also means, that true straight, and true gay, probably doesn't exist, or is so extremely rare it could be considered a syndrome. (Indeed, there are men who had so much testosterone, and so little estrogen during the formation of they're brains, they seem to lack any female trait, can completely forget others, and are practically unable to understand other people's emotions, especially female ones - these would probably also be, completely straight - and similarly women who had so much estrogen they have virtually nothing male inside of them. These conditions are indeed syndromes.

(The other end of the extreme, are men who had so much estrogen their brains grew so female, they feel like they are women trapped in a male body, and the same for women who feel like they are men trapped in a female body.)



Are they actually not sexually attracted to men, or do they just claim they are not attracted to men. You should look how many men going in prison claim to not be sexually attracted to men, and then inside have sex with them after all. This is where the whole, "suppress one side of their sexually" comes in.

It also rather shows the reason WHY so many of us are to certain extends bisexual. After all, if you cannot see what is attractive in your own gender, how can you make yourself attractive to the opposite one?



And that is, again, ridiculous. No study on what gender one is attracted to, will ever bother with hair combing because it doesn't have anything to do with other.


Well, like I said, the study seemed to isuggest that anyone showing signs that weren´t stereotypical (i.e. girls liking action movies or men finding Brad Pitt - or whoever was the celeb hunk of that time- attractive) was automatically labelled bi. :p

But I think we digress, maybe we should get back on-topic: Wonder Woman.

[Black Atom]

Males in prison a long known evidence that supports this; if you were truly 100% straight, you couldn't be with a man no matter what.


I'm pretty sure gays and bisexuals don't want to be lumped in with the psychopaths that perptrate rape in prisons. While there are men in prison that engage in consensual homosexual relations, the forced sex has more to do with violence and exerting power over other inmates than sexual attraction. I don't think it's indicative of what you're trying to prove.

[3D Master]

I'm pretty sure gays and bisexuals don't want to be lumped in with the psychopaths that perptrate rape in prisons. While there are men in prison that engage in consensual homosexual relations, the forced sex has more to do with violence and exerting power over other inmates than sexual attraction. I don't think it's indicative of what you're trying to prove.

If they were straight, power and violence wouldn't be enough to be able to have sex with another person of the same sex.

[Tyr]

And some romance doesn't have to be a fullblown relationship. How about some charismatic ambivalent villain who is in love with her. Kind of like how Talia is to Batman.

The only one I can see developing a thing for her would be Aries, Faust is to busy grabbing as much power as she can, and the rest of Wondy's rogues gallery are made up of women who really hate her. You'd probably have to come up with a new villian for that one.

I'd know I'd dress up as a supervillian and threaten to hurt a lot of people just to get her attention.

Of course then she'd throw that lasso on me. I'd have to face the cold harsh truth, that I'm a pathetic loser who became a supervillian just so I can meet Superheroines. Either that or Powergirl shows up and beats the crap out of me....Still either way it might be worth it :p

[Pennyghost]

The only one I can see developing a thing for her would be Aries, Faust is to busy grabbing as much power as she can, and the rest of Wondy's rogues gallery are made up of women who really hate her. You'd probably have to come up with a new villian for that one.

I'm kinda voting for some hot looking south american drug lord head of gangster family.

Hey, I didn't say that Diana would/should give him the time of day. Just that he would look at her all smoldering and seductive and try to take her out to dinner. (wasn't there something slightly similar with Ras Al Ghul and Black Canary?)

I don't think that Diana actually has to sleep or be with anybody for there to be more of a romance spark in her book. We often don't see Batman sleep with a lot of people (despite what it is implied about Bruce Wayne), but people have more or less unrequited crushes on him, his supporting cast have romances, him and Catwoman dance around the issue a lot... so he still feels plenty of sexual without him actually having to have sex.

Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily think that the same thing can or should be applied to Diana (for example, I have real trouble having her a Batman/Catwoman like relationship with a semi-villain or at least people of dubious morals), but I think some pointers could be taken.

I actually think that it would be neat of having a mortal after Diana. I actually like Diana's God mythology, but I would also be much in favor for giving her some reasons for dealing more with some down to earth issues. So some normal human guy who for whatever reason considers him rich and powerful enough to court her could be appealing.

I know it's a clichee, but maybe even the "incredibly hot and perfect girl who never gets asked out because every guy is intimidated by her" card could be pulled. So maybe she is willing to go out with him once because she is curious about this side of human interaction. (and then of course she finds out that he has some shady background and proceeds to kick the behinds of his goons)

[666MasterOfPuppets]

My primary research area was IGF-1 stimulation/inhibition.

You're not into 'roids, are you? ;)

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I'm kinda voting for some hot looking south american drug lord head of gangster family.

Hey, I didn't say that Diana would/should give him the time of day. Just that he would look at her all smoldering and seductive and try to take her out to dinner. (wasn't there something slightly similar with Ras Al Ghul and Black Canary?)

I don't think that Diana actually has to sleep or be with anybody for there to be more of a romance spark in her book. We often don't see Batman sleep with a lot of people (despite what it is implied about Bruce Wayne), but people have more or less unrequited crushes on him, his supporting cast have romances, him and Catwoman dance around the issue a lot... so he still feels plenty of sexual without him actually having to have sex.

Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily think that the same thing can or should be applied to Diana (for example, I have real trouble having her a Batman/Catwoman like relationship with a semi-villain or at least people of dubious morals), but I think some pointers could be taken.

I actually think that it would be neat of having a mortal after Diana. I actually like Diana's God mythology, but I would also be much in favor for giving her some reasons for dealing more with some down to earth issues. So some normal human guy who for whatever reason considers him rich and powerful enough to court her could be appealing.

I know it's a clichee, but maybe even the "incredibly hot and perfect girl who never gets asked out because every guy is intimidated by her" card could be pulled. So maybe she is willing to go out with him once because she is curious about this side of human interaction. (and then of course she finds out that he has some shady background and proceeds to kick the behinds of his goons)

I like the way you think :)

Yeah, there can be romance in Diana´s love life without turning it into a porn fest.

I think Diana should have LEGIONS of candidates, all fighting to get her attention.
I think some awesome stories could be written solely around her would-be boy/girlfriends and the conflicts that would surely ensue due to their all-out take-no-prisoners competition.

I mean, imagine if two of them were baddies as powerfull as Triggon or Darkseid.

Right there you have a saga of epic proportions!!!!ONE1

[SensorBoy]

You're not into 'roids, are you? ;)

Nope. Before I took a Commission in the Army, I was part of a research team which specialized in gene therapy protocols. Molecular Biology requires massive amounts of Undergrad research time, and it was that or the HIV lab team.

[Pennyghost]

I think Diana should have LEGIONS of candidates, all fighting to get her attention.
I think some awesome stories could be written solely around her would-be boy/girlfriends and the conflicts that would surely ensue due to their all-out take-no-prisoners competition.

:p

Now I imagine some cracktastic storyline where Mr. Mxyzptlk starts some "Win a Date With Diana" contest and the whole world goes nuts about it.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

:p

Now I imagine some cracktastic storyline where Mr. Mxyzptlk starts some "Win a Date With Diana" contest and the whole world goes nuts about it.

That sounds just insane enough to work. :p
I think the fun part would be if Diana played along for the fun of it (even throwing a couple quips at the contestants) instead of someone dragging her into it, the whole "- Do it or I´ll destroy Moscow! London! New York!".

I think Diana needs to be FUN, there´s nothing wrong with WW throwing a couple clever remarks from time to time.

[3D Master]

That sounds just insane enough to work. :p
I think the fun part would be if Diana played along for the fun of it (even throwing a couple quips at the contestants) instead of someone dragging her into it, the whole "- Do it or I´ll destroy Moscow! London! New York!".

That would actually be the way Diana would get to one up Mxy. Mxy would be all plotting on how to trick or force Diana into it, and she realizes this and just goes along with it, screwing up half of Mxy's fun.

He'd be like, "What!? What!? Supes never just went along!?"

[Augusto]

I think the idea of substituting Steve Rogers for Steve Trevor could be quite interesting.

We could tie this with that thread about bringing a Marvel character to DC (Steve Rogers most of the time). Captain America and Wonder Womanhttp://www.smileyhut.com/confused/g.gif (http://www.smileyhut.com)

http://www.smileyhut.com/excited/punk.gif (http://www.smileyhut.com)

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Nope. Before I took a Commission in the Army, I was part of a research team which specialized in gene therapy protocols. Molecular Biology requires massive amounts of Undergrad research time, and it was that or the HIV lab team.

Oh, I see. Thanx for clearing that up.

[kingsyn]

I'm kinda new to Wonder Woman, and i already love the character!
But the question i wanted to ask to all the WW fans out there is why does'nt
WW show more misandrist traits. She comes from an island of manhaters, and shes never been ashamed of her heritage (or at least that part of it). Does'nt logic dictate that that she should be more like that?
Similar to Thundra from Marvel.
(Remember, i'm not an expert on WW! So the answer might be obvious to some of you. :wink: )

[dreyga2000]

I'm kinda new to Wonder Woman, and i already love the character!
But the question i wanted to ask to all the WW fans out there is why does'nt
WW show more misandrist traits. She comes from an island of manhaters, and shes never been ashamed of her heritage (or at least that part of it). Does'nt logic dictate that that she should be more like that?
Similar to Thundra from Marvel.
(Remember, i'm not an expert on WW! So the answer might be obvious to some of you. :wink: )

Well she's been living with Men for several decades now... So it's reasonable to assume she has come to terms with many things regarding men...

[BurningStarIV]

That was one question I always had about the character. She's from a race of Amazons who are generally mistrusting and hateful towards men. Wouldn't she be more.....Amazonian?

The fact of the matter is, above all else, Diana is wise and forgiving. When she came to "Man's World", there was a lot she didn't understand, and at times she came off seeming a little hateful. But, in all her time here, she's learned that hatred towards men is not the best way. She was sent to America to promote peace.

In Frank Miller/Jim Lee's run of All-Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder, they showed her as a more man-hating Amazon. It was interesting, and I'm surprised no one has spun an entire story out of that version of the character.

What it boils down to is that not everyone on Themyscira hated men. And being raised by a society of intelligence, art, forgiveness, and peace has led her to remain that way, even in surroundings unfamiliar to her.


I love Wonder Woman. She's been my favorite comic book character since I was a kid, and I have a shrine to her (which is a little obsessive, I know).

[ScottyQuick]

The Amazons most definitely do NOT hate men. They've actually been pretty damn kind to the men who do show up, considering in the past, men have only tried to kill them all. They're not misandristic at all, where'd you get that?

[bert]

um. .

you *do* realize that the current writer on Wonder Woman, Gail Simone, has a board right here on CBR?

it's called "You'll All Be Sorry", and she's extremely active on her board.

come on over, and ask this question there -- you'll likely get some wonderful responses, and probably an answer straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak) . .

tell her bert sent you!

[BurningStarIV]

The Amazons most definitely do NOT hate men. They've actually been pretty damn kind to the men who do show up, considering in the past, men have only tried to kill them all. They're not misandristic at all, where'd you get that?
That's only partially true. For the most part, yes. The (DC Universe) Amazons have been very kind to men who show up. For the MOST part. There are some exceptions to that rule, though. And, of course, Amazon's have been portrayed as misandristic throughout history, not just in comics. This has been a misportrayal, but it is, unfortunately, how it works.

[Constantine Drakon]

She comes from an island of manhaters,


No, she doesn't.

I wish all questions were this easy to answer.

[Cardinal!]

The "man-hating" aspect is a popular misconception about the Wonder Woman and the Amazons, which, unfortunately, a lot of writers who don't bother to learn about the characters tend to buy into as well - but it's really just not accurate.

Diana, at least in her post-crisis incarnation, was always innocent of any substantial prejudice against the male gender. Although, having known of her sisters' struggles with men and the stories of Heracles and his onslaught on Themyscira, she was rightfully maybe a smidgeon cautious of man as a whole, she was more than anything incredulous and quizzical of men when she first encountered Steve Trevor, like looking at an entirely different alien species. She was quick to abandon her sisters' distrust after fighting alongside Steve, Superman, and other men of noble character. Harboring feelings of resentment towards men wouldn't have aided her well in her mission of peace, anyway.

It wasn't long after Diana's first excursion to the outside world that Heracles, having paid penance for his crimes against the Amazons, formally apologized to Hippolyta and Themyscira for his past transgressions. The Amazons forgave, and with that, more or less made peace with men in general and put aside any "man-hatiness" they might have had. They would later open their country to outsiders, male and female alike, and eventually set foot in the outside world themselves for the first time in thousands of years. So no, the Amazons don't really have a problem with men, either. They're a pretty peaceful society, in spite of their military prowess.

Now, the Bana-Mighdall Amazons (that Artemis hails from), the tribe led by Hippolyta's sister Antiope that separated from Themyscira after Heracles' invasion to go bring their attackers to justice, disowning themselves from the Greek gods and their own immortality - the ones who killed any men they encountered except for the ones they took captive to live in stables and act as sperm dispensers? Pretty misandric, at least back when they were first introduced. But since rejoining their Themysciran sisters and re-integrating with them, the Banas have grown a lot over the years, too, and in a lot of ways have surpassed the Themyscirans in terms of progression.

If you get the chance, check out Wonder Woman: Gods and Mortals and the following volume, Challenge of the Gods - these are the first two trades collecting the 1987 relaunch by George Perez. You'll kind of see exactly what the nature of the Amazons' distaste for men is, and you'll also see why it just doesn't happen with Wonder Woman.

[_OM_]

The Amazons most definitely do NOT hate men. They've actually been pretty damn kind to the men who do show up, considering in the past, men have only tried to kill them all. They're not misandristic at all, where'd you get that?

...It's based on the fact that the Amazons of myth have always been portrayed as man-hating, although most retellings tend to gloss over the fact that they were also lesbians. Definitely something that would have been avoided in a code-approved book, especially one that started almost 70 years ago.

[WorstThingUS]

...It's based on the fact that the Amazons of myth have always been portrayed as man-hating, although most retellings tend to gloss over the fact that they were also lesbians. Definitely something that would have been avoided in a code-approved book, especially one that started almost 70 years ago.

Actually, the legends told of them keeping men in battle for sexual pleasure and seed for children. The lesbian fixation is development of recent generations as the Greeks could have cared less about homosexuality. Also, in legend they'd kill or main the males or again, keep them for sexual pleasure or breeding stock. And them cutting off a breast to better use the bow and arrow obviously has no place in comics aimed primarily at young men.

[Devil_LeonX]

Hey guys could anyone tell me if Wonder woman is still a virgin?last time i checked i think she was and im hoping she still is!!

[Nick Vortex]

Hey guys could anyone tell me if Wonder woman is still a virgin?last time i checked i think she was and im hoping she still is!!

What does that have to do with anything?

The really old Wonder Woman stuff kind of had an S&M edge to it. The only way to render her powerless was to bind her bracelets. I don't know if they ever wrote in her doing "the deed," but most issues from early on had her tied up in some way.

[Devil_LeonX]

What does that have to do with anything?

The really old Wonder Woman stuff kind of had an S&M edge to it. The only way to render her powerless was to bind her bracelets. I don't know if they ever wrote in her doing "the deed," but most issues from early on had her tied up in some way.

It doesn't really just a ? and didn't want to start a thread just for that so i don't think its that odd

[Chiroptera]

Hey guys could anyone tell me if Wonder woman is still a virgin?last time i checked i think she was and im hoping she still is!!

*face palms* Oh god why... Why did you have to bring this up again?

The short answer is: It'll depend on which writer you look at and which fans you talk to.

Greg Rucka's Wonder Woman, openly suggested herself to be bisexual and never gave me the impression that she could possibly still be a virgin.

The modern Wondy as she's being written by Simone actually seems like she may be a virgin, and is most likely straight.

The Perez version.... Man sometimes I couldn't tell what she was there., She loved everybody and everything (in a peace on earth way, not ap erverse way).


Now, as for the fans that'll be completely different. If this stirs a debate as large as the last one did your question may provide another 3 or 4 pages for this topic.

[pariah-1972]

The Perez one was a virgen she came from an island of all women who she considered her sisters and she never slept with anyone or dated anyone that whole time.

[Devil_LeonX]

*face palms* Oh god why... Why did you have to bring this up again?

The short answer is: It'll depend on which writer you look at and which fans you talk to.

Greg Rucka's Wonder Woman, openly suggested herself to be bisexual and never gave me the impression that she could possibly still be a virgin.

The modern Wondy as she's being written by Simone actually seems like she may be a virgin, and is most likely straight.

The Perez version.... Man sometimes I couldn't tell what she was there., She loved everybody and everything (in a peace on earth way, not ap erverse way).


Now, as for the fans that'll be completely different. If this stirs a debate as large as the last one did your question may provide another 3 or 4 pages for this topic.
lol i was thinking there wasn't a direct answer like everything else in comics.Any how thanks and didn't mean to bring it up just well was answering your post which involved my question...

[AllisterH]

Let me put it this way.

When Kingdom Come came out all those years ago, we still didn't know if Diana was a virgin...(the damn comic never once mentioned a past relationship for WW - and people wonder why I despise WW/Superman or Bats/WW pairings..)

[ScottyQuick]

The Perez one was a virgen she came from an island of all women who she considered her sisters and she never slept with anyone or dated anyone that whole time.

No, they just called each other 'sister'. They didn't actually consider each other to be siblings. But how do we know she didn't date anyone the whole time?

[pariah-1972]

No, they just called each other 'sister'. They didn't actually consider each other to be siblings. But how do we know she didn't date anyone the whole time?On Themiscyra? or during Perez's run in general?

[ScottyQuick]

On Themiscyra? or during Perez's run in general?


On Themyscira.

[pariah-1972]

On Themyscira.Well you can speculate all you want that she could or couldn't have dated someone there but there is no evidence that she did or that she is bi-sexual in anyway.

[Samuraixsithlord]

No, they just called each other 'sister'. They didn't actually consider each other to be siblings. But how do we know she didn't date anyone the whole time?

Because All the Amazon's considered Diana their Daughter.

[ScottyQuick]

Well you can speculate all you want that she could or couldn't have dated someone there but there is no evidence that she did or that she is bi-sexual in anyway.

Exactly, you can speculate all you want about whether she did or didn't date someone while on Themyscira, but you can't say "No, she NEVER slept with ANYONE".

As for bisexuality? How could anyone get that! (http://i42.tinypic.com/29m6pw7.jpg)