something i noticed about hip-hop/soul,and R&B listeners

[blackdragon6]

like i mentioned in the musical taste thread i noticed people whom like hip-hop/soul or R&B tend to shun soul music.i'm not just talking about old school soul but modern soul as well.to me the hip-hop/soul genre seems to be flooded with "ok singers",or singers with weak vocal range.people like ashanti,ciara,112 and others.and the ones who can sing aren't really doing anything differrent people like ne-yo,jagged edge etc

the people who sing contemparary R&B are just doing typical R&B music.singers like tamia,jesse powell,jeffry osborne,faith evans.


but the people who listen to these genres tend to think the people who can sing are boring,or they don't like their voices.one girl told me leela james voice was too raspy,while another told me she didn't like the way she look.this same person said that was the same thing that turned her off by floetry.of course i was like WTF???

i mean what makes singers like 112,faith evans,mary j blige,ciara,ashanti,keisha cole,usher,and jagged edge beter than "real singers" like

joss stone,jill scott,angie stone,maxwell,van hunt,floetry,anthony hamilton?


so my question to you is,do you think people have been force fed average singers for so that that they have become the standard?

[Leslie Lee III]

like i mentioned in the musical taste thread i noticed people whom like hip-hop/soul or R&B tend to shun soul music.i'm not just talking about old school soul but modern soul as well.to me the hip-hop/soul genre seems to be flooded with "ok singers",or singers with weak vocal range.people like ashanti,ciara,112 and others.and the ones who can sing aren't really doing anything differrent people like ne-yo,jagged edge etc

the people who sing contemparary R&B are just doing typical R&B music.singers like tamia,jesse powell,jeffry osborne,faith evans.

but the people who listen to these genres tend to think the people who can sing are boring,or they don't like their voices.one girl told me leela james voice was too raspy,while another told me she didn't like the way she look.this same person said that was the same thing that turned her off by floetry.of course i was like WTF???

i mean what makes singers like 112,faith evans,mary j blige,ciara,ashanti,keisha cole,usher,and jagged edge beter than "real singers" like

joss stone,jill scott,angie stone,maxwell,van hunt,floetry,anthony hamilton?


so my question to you is,do you think people have been force fed average singers for so that that they have become the standard?

We calling Joss Stone a "real" singer now?

Anyway, being technically gifted vocal wise means little when it comes to making a song that people want to actually listen to. I don't listen to music to appreciate how technically skilled a singer/guitarist/drummer/bassist/producer is. I want something that actually sounds good to my ears and Usher with the Neptunes and/or Timbaland will sound a whole lot better than most of those "real" singers no matter what notes they can hit that he can't. I'd rather listen to Britney Spears whisper over an incredible beat, than listen to a "real" singer screech over some aimless piano.

[Jonathan Bogart]

That was a great bust on Joss Stone, Leslie. Seriously. (Girl's got voice, sure. But she doesn't have taste, style, direction, or a good producer, which matter more in the pop world.)

I'm underwhelmed by the modern soul scene too, especially as compared to the best of the rap-pop (which I think is different from pop-rap: that's Fresh Prince) out there today. Andre 3000's future-soul is way more interesting, even when it's dumb, than meticulous Philly fetishists like Anthony Hamilton. On the other hand, I'm still too white to get off on beat alone, which is why I've never liked a Ciara song.

The best soul music I've heard this half-decade does come from a white British person, but it's Jamie Lidell, and he comes from the drum 'n' bass scene. He mashes up Sly & the Family Stone, Ray Charles, Solomon Burke, and every crazy post-Prince sound ever into a great blue milkshake of a sound. No, he hasn't charted and won't, but what the hell. And of course he won't be embraced by a hip-hop crowd. He's white and British, remember?

It's kind of weird how most rap threads seem to be about what rap fans (usually the general "they," rarely the particularized "I" or "we") think about this thing or that instead of what the music itself is like. I wonder if rock and jazz were as self-obsessed at their heights.

[Ilash]

Not to take the thread to far off topic but how would you draw the line between soul music and R&B, both in their classic forms and more modern counterparts?

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

We calling Joss Stone a "real" singer now?

Anyway, being technically gifted vocal wise means little when it comes to making a song that people want to actually listen to. I don't listen to music to appreciate how technically skilled a singer/guitarist/drummer/bassist/producer is. I want something that actually sounds good to my ears and Usher with the Neptunes and/or Timbaland will sound a whole lot better than most of those "real" singers no matter what notes they can hit that he can't. I'd rather listen to Britney Spears whisper over an incredible beat, than listen to a "real" singer screech over some aimless piano.Than why bother listening to music,or making music if no one cares about skill? It seems pointless .




I wonder if rock and jazz were as self-obsessed at their heights.i'm sure it was.

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

Not to take the thread to far off topic but how would you draw the line between soul music and R&B, both in their classic forms and more modern counterparts?R&B is still R&B to me,nothing more nothing less.Modern soul is actually good,but its the hip-hop influenced R&B thats the norm now.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

Well, the thing is, I haven't listened to the radio in about 2 yrs. and it's mainly due to the poor quality that todays rap & R&B offers. Basic production for both styles. How can you call it Rhythm & Blues with NO live instuments. And Todays lyricists, the ones on the radio anyway(I know I don't listen to the radio, but when I do go to a sneaker store I catch a song or two) are simple and not clever. I got that Snow Man...get it.

But anyways, I am more into the modern Soul acts, and the Independent hip-hop thats out there is pretty impressive too. I'll take a Jill scott over an Ashanti any day of the week. This brain bubble gum has to go though. But I guess the hiphop/soul is targeted towards teens who would by bejeweled two way pagers and sneakers with spinners.

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

like i mentioned in the musical taste thread i noticed people whom like hip-hop/soul or R&B tend to shun soul music.i'm not just talking about old school soul but modern soul as well.to me the hip-hop/soul genre seems to be flooded with "ok singers",or singers with weak vocal range.people like ashanti,ciara,112 and others.and the ones who can sing aren't really doing anything differrent people like ne-yo,jagged edge etc

the people who sing contemparary R&B are just doing typical R&B music.singers like tamia,jesse powell,jeffry osborne,faith evans.


but the people who listen to these genres tend to think the people who can sing are boring,or they don't like their voices.one girl told me leela james voice was too raspy,while another told me she didn't like the way she look.this same person said that was the same thing that turned her off by floetry.of course i was like WTF???

i mean what makes singers like 112,faith evans,mary j blige,ciara,ashanti,keisha cole,usher,and jagged edge beter than "real singers" like

joss stone,jill scott,angie stone,maxwell,van hunt,floetry,anthony hamilton?


so my question to you is,do you think people have been force fed average singers for so that that they have become the standard?


I think ultimatley those are different genre's that has their own listening audience.

HIP-HOP/R&B is made for teens/and people in their early 20's,(mostly girls) lets face it thats who mostly buys it.

Modern R&B is made for the 30 to 40 somethings,sort of the "inbetweeners".they don't like Hip-Hop soul,but they don't like pure soul either.they just like the bare bones typical R&B.

Modern or Neo-Soul is made for the 20 to 30 somethings that goes to poetry slams and coffe shops,and listen to alternative hip-hop.

Classic soul is well Soul oldies thats listened to by old folks.and they snob everything else. lol

[Leslie Lee III]

Than why bother listening to music,or making music if no one cares about skill? It seems pointless

Because technical vocal skill is only one part of a much, much larger equation. That's the nature of art, any art. Technical skill does not equal artistic quality. It may help in some instances, and a certain amount may be required, but it's not as linked as people have suggested in this thread.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

. This brain bubble gum has to go though. But I guess the hiphop/soul is targeted towards teens who would by bejeweled two way pagers and sneakers with spinners.
to be fair hiphop/soul was ground breaking at the begining.because at the time fusing R&B and rap togeather was unheard of. when people like teddy riley,and soul to soul did it people saw it as unique.as a matter of fact i think the first rap R&B collabo was jody whatley and rakim on the song called "friends".next thing you knew new jack swing was everywhere.

[Jonathan Bogart]

Not to take the thread to far off topic but how would you draw the line between soul music and R&B, both in their classic forms and more modern counterparts?
Here's the quick version of my understanding of 20th-century black music:

As jazz, in both its hot and sweet forms, became the dominant American musical form in the 1930s and 1940s, black America began exploring more simplistic versions of the music, often heavily inspired by the guitar-based Mississippi Delta version of the blues that were spreading out over the country as the black population continued to migrate north. The term rhythm & blues was coined in the 1940s to describe a less ecstatic, more earthy form of hot jazz that placed the emphasis on pounding rhythm rather than on impressive soloing; it was in many ways the punk to bebop's prog. But it was also a catch-all phrase, lumping big-band belters like Big Joe Turner in with Delta minimalists like John Lee Hooker and smooth vocal groups like the Ravens. (It was the replacement term for "race music," or "music too black for whites to bother with." Never mind that whites bought these records too, and always had. That's what "separate but equal" was all about.)

Rhythm & blues, when married to country music, became rock & roll, which was embraced by the white mainstream. The black stream began to absorb more influence from the black gospel tradition, and concentrated more on the vocals. This stylistic shift became known as soul; but soul is to rhythm & blues what 60s' rock is to 50s' rock & roll: there's a clear progression, not a sharp break. Soul had two sides to it: sweet and hot (just like 20s jazz), or the Supremes and James Brown. (If you can't tell the difference, then, man, you'll never know.)

The hot, rhythmic side splintered off into funk at the dawn of the 70s (as well as inspiring huge chunks of rock: the "raw" singing style of so many rockers is a direct import from Wilson Pickett); after that, soul mainly refers to the slow, beautifully-orchestrated, passionate style of the Spinners, Al Green, and Smokey Robinson. Luther Vandross updated the style for the 80s, and as far as I can tell, most neo-soul singers today are more interested in imitating Vandross than Brown.

In the late 70s, funk gave birth to disco which gave birth to hip-hop (yes, I'm simplifying), and during the 80s, black music became more and more inflected (I did not say infected) by hip-hop, until a black artist not using hip-hop beats became an oddity, and eventually, a commercial failure. The progression remains solid, though: the development of black pop from Rick James (smooth funk) to Michael Jackson (disco-pop) to Prince (electro-funk) to New Edition (new jack swing) to LL Cool J (rap ballad) to Will Smith (pop rap) is clear.

But it's all, always, been called rhythm & blues (shortened to r&b in the 60s) in the pages of Billboard magazine, and that's why the modern style is called r&b. I wish it wasn't, as it's confusing from a historical perspective (though if the alternative is a dumbass name like "new jack swing," I'll deal). But I can barely tell the difference between Nelly and Usher; I'm not the guy to micro-analyze the current scene.

Basically, however, "modern soul" or "neo-soul" or just "soul" (said by people who don't listen to older music) refers to artists who are consciously using an older style, not following in the main stream of black music, in which Destiny's Child became more or less the standard-bearer around the turn of the century. "Soul" isn't "r&b" (even though, historically, it's "r&b") because "r&b" refers to a specific post-Blige type of music today.

Hell, now I'm confused.

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

Luther Vandross updated the style for the 80s, and as far as I can tell, most neo-soul singers today are more interested in imitating Vandross than Brown.
Vandross to me seemed more like "urban adult contemparary" than soul.Neo-soul singers try to imitate stevie,smokey,marvin,mayefield,and etta.

[blackdragon6]

during the 80s, black music became more and more inflected (I did not say infected) by hip-hop, until a black artist not using hip-hop beats became an oddity, and eventually, a commercial failure. wich brings me bact to my original post.why does real singers get the shaft in the mainstream?

[KenK]

It does suck that singers with more vocal range and musicians that play a wide variety of instruments aren't considered as talented as dudes who rely on beat machines and computer-generated loops. Not to down mainstream hip-hop producers, because I agree, there's a market for it, and I like a lot of those producers(if I had a little more discipline and more importantly, money, I'D want to be one of those producers!). I remember when I couldn't stand Swizz Beats, anything he did involving Ruff Ryders got on my damn nerves. But he's been doing some great stuff lately. And of course, I still like the Neptunes and Timbaland, and Just Blaze, but damn! I agree with Blackdragon as far as there being too many singers who can't really sing worth a damn, and rappers who just aren't all that great lyrically. As for singers, I can handle someone being marginal(sometimes), but where rap is concerned, you need to come with some fiyah!! I can't afford to listen to marginal rappers. Singers is different, 'cause I can be impressed by melody and good songwriting(whether it's written by the singer or not) in lieu of top-notch vocals. But if they can't even make your voice sound good with studio magic (Britney, Ashanti, Aslee Simpson) I don't wanna hear ya ass!!

[Kaiju]

Vandross to me seemed more like "urban adult contemparary" than soul.Neo-soul singers try to imitate stevie,smokey,marvin,mayefield,and etta.

You nailed it. They also idolize Donny Hathaway, early Prince, Al Green, Sly Stone, Eddie Kendricks solo stuff(see Alicia Keys Unbreakable), the deep groove bands of the 70s and other things from that era.

[Jonathan Bogart]

Vandross to me seemed more like "urban adult contemparary" than soul.Neo-soul singers try to imitate stevie,smokey,marvin,mayefield,and etta.
You nailed it. They also idolize Donny Hathaway, early Prince, Al Green, Sly Stone, Eddie Kendricks solo stuff(see Alicia Keys Unbreakable), the deep groove bands of the 70s and other things from that era.
I stand corrected. My main point, insofar as I had one, was that the neo-soul singers tend to favor the mellow, lush side of classic soul. I'm much more of a Stax/Volt type of guy, so I don't care much for their work.

[blackdragon6]

I stand corrected. My main point, insofar as I had one, was that the neo-soul singers tend to favor the mellow, lush side of classic soul. I'm much more of a Stax/Volt type of guy, so I don't care much for their work.i think your missing out on some good music.........

[Aggie]

Vandross to me seemed more like "urban adult contemparary" than soul.Neo-soul singers try to imitate stevie,smokey,marvin,mayefield,and etta.

I don't think so much imitate, but more so recapture the feel of those artist...it's weird how music forms can transform so drastically w/ chord adjustments, tempo changes and taking out an instrument here and adding another here...but you really can't hear that kind of subtly anymore because everything is so over produced now that it all sounds the same...so anything different isn't really appreciated...there are 2 songs from back in the day that i'm currently in love w/... "a whiter shade of pale" and "hot butter soul"...the instrumentation on both is just amazing and for me real soul music has to have that key component.

[Jessica Drew]

i mean what makes singers like 112,faith evans,mary j blige, ciara, ashanti, keisha cole, usher, and jagged edge beter than "real singers" like joss stone, jill scott, angie stone, maxwell, van hunt, floetry, anthony hamilton?

so my question to you is,do you think people have been force fed average singers for so that that they have become the standard?

To answer the latter question first: no, I don't think so. To answer the former question, then I think the answer may not come down to the quality of the singers' vocals or to their artistry as much as it does the music that surrounds it. I think they believe that the music that surrounds singers like van hunt, jill scott, etc... tends to be old-fashioned, and they don't want old-fashioned music, no matter who sings it.

I'm not agreeing with this belief--just stating that I think it's out there.

[bfrank]

wich brings me bact to my original post.why does real singers get the shaft in the mainstream?

because diana is easier to market than florence, as is sherly lee ralph to fat jennifer holiday, as is beyoce to fat jennifer hudson.....let's not act like this is a new thing......

[Comic_Mobsta]

because diana is easier to market than florence, as is sherly lee ralph to fat jennifer holiday, as is beyoce to fat jennifer hudson.....let's not act like this is a new thing......This goes beyond looks easily.Keep in mind Alicia keys was collecting dust at columbia records before Clive Davis took her to J records.

[Slappy san]

like i mentioned in the musical taste thread i noticed people whom like hip-hop/soul or R&B tend to shun soul music.i'm not just talking about old school soul but modern soul as well.to me the hip-hop/soul genre seems to be flooded with "ok singers",or singers with weak vocal range.people like ashanti,ciara,112 and others.and the ones who can sing aren't really doing anything differrent people like ne-yo,jagged edge etc

the people who sing contemparary R&B are just doing typical R&B music.singers like tamia,jesse powell,jeffry osborne,faith evans.


but the people who listen to these genres tend to think the people who can sing are boring,or they don't like their voices.one girl told me leela james voice was too raspy,while another told me she didn't like the way she look.this same person said that was the same thing that turned her off by floetry.of course i was like WTF???

i mean what makes singers like 112,faith evans,mary j blige,ciara,ashanti,keisha cole,usher,and jagged edge beter than "real singers" like

joss stone,jill scott,angie stone,maxwell,van hunt,floetry,anthony hamilton?


so my question to you is,do you think people have been force fed average singers for so that that they have become the standard?

It's all about packaging/marketing.

The problem is people are so conditioned to like cute people with who dance. That's what the record companies push. Talent lags far behind. It's a damn shame too.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

actually all the real talent is behind the scenes doing back up vocals for people who can't sing.but you shouldn't feel sorry for them because their part of the system too,yep even the people with talent is part of the big evil machine.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

This goes beyond looks easily.Keep in mind Alicia keys was collecting dust at Columbia records before Clive Davis took her to J records.exactly they didn't know what to do with her so they shelved her.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I wonder what's going to happen to Chrisette Michele.

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

I don't think so much imitate, but more so recapture the feel of those artist...it's weird how music forms can transform so drastically w/ chord adjustments, tempo changes and taking out an instrument here and adding another here...but you really can't hear that kind of subtly anymore because everything is so over produced now that it all sounds the same...so anything different isn't really appreciated...there are 2 songs from back in the day that i'm currently in love w/... "a whiter shade of pale" and "hot butter soul"...the instrumentation on both is just amazing and for me real soul music has to have that key component.Depends on what we're discussing soul or R&B.If the latter than R&B always was watered down soul/Rhythm & Blues.But there is innovation there too in the production technique of people like Devante,Timbaland,Teddy Riley etc......They're production was very advanced so it would SEEM overproduced.So much so that it turned traditional soul fans off.

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

To answer the latter question first: no, I don't think so. To answer the former question, then I think the answer may not come down to the quality of the singers' vocals or to their artistry as much as it does the music that surrounds it. I think they believe that the music that surrounds singers like van hunt, jill scott, etc... tends to be old-fashioned, and they don't want old-fashioned music, no matter who sings it.

I'm not agreeing with this belief--just stating that I think it's out there.I think theres the opposite end of the spectrum.Where some things can be TOO progressive and people get left behind listening to oldies.Of course this doesn't mean everything on mainstream radio is too advanced for people (Believe me theres a lot of garbage out there),but some people are turned off by certain things thats not the "norm" or "Traditional".But at the same time i don't think its irrational.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

Depends on what we're discussing soul or R&B.If the latter than R&B always was watered down soul/Rhythm & Blues.in fact a lot of the typical R&B sound was marketed to adult contemporary stations.greats examples of this are Jeffry Osbourne,Tyler Collins (remember her?! lol),Whitney Houston,Boys II Men (later in their careers),Luthor vandross,Tamia etc you get the picture right??..and there you have it.also Clive Davis exclusively marketed Whitney to white adult contemporary stations.BTW do you remember when she got booed off the stage at either the soul train awards or some other black award show during the early 90's? (likewise with Boys II Men)


But there is innovation there too in the production technique of people like Devante,Timbaland,Teddy Riley etc......They're production was very advanced so it would SEEM overproduced.So much so that it turned traditional soul fans off.i think timbaland is the future of HIP-HOP and R&B,his production style is crazy.

[Slappy san]

in fact a lot of the typical R&B sound was marketed to adult contemporary stations.greats examples of this are Jeffry Osbourne,Tyler Collins (remember her?! lol),Whitney Houston,Boys II Men (later in their careers),Luthor vandross,Tamia etc you get the picture right??..and there you have it.also Clive Davis exclusively marketed Whitney to white adult contemporary stations.BTW do you remember when she got booed off the stage at either the soul train awards or some other black award show during the early 90's? (likewise with Boys II Men)

i think timbaland is the future of HIP-HOP and R&B,his production style is crazy.

His production isn't all that unless you know nothing of electronic music.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

His production isn't all that unless you know nothing of electronic music.yeah i don't live in Detroit like you :p,i will say this though David Frank from "The System" is a great prototype of tim.



heres his web site http://www.davidfrankmusic.com/

[sevenzark_7]

...but I dig early Prince (1st half-dozen albums or so), Roberta Flack, George Clinton, Sly, digable planets, Maxwell, The Bar-Kays, Afrika Bambaataa, Aretha Franklin, and the super-gritty funk on funk45.com.

As to your original question, yeah, "artists" nowadays are pre-packaged affairs with lots of corporate money behind them. It used to be that artists were loathe to have their music used in commercials; now it's the only way a lot of people can get airplay.

I have a friend who wants to be a singer and he moved to the UK 'cause of the system here. I also think that most people can't honestly tell the difference between a trained and talented singer and someone who sings karaoke on Tuesday nights. Just imagine how bad a lot of singers would be without the studio effects and software used to improve their vocals.

[sevenzark_7]

actually all the real talent is behind the scenes doing back up vocals for people who can't sing.but you shouldn't feel sorry for them because their part of the system too,yep even the people with talent is part of the big evil machine.

That's EXACTLY how Milli Vanilli came about. Some studio musicians and singers cut the album and got a couple of male models to lip-sync it in their videos and concerts. Of course, pretty much everybody does that nowadays- remember Ashlee Simpson on SNL? The list goes on I'm sure...

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

I also think that most people can't honestly tell the difference between a trained and talented singer and someone who sings karaoke on Tuesday nights..beyonce fans come to mind.....in fact i think this is the point of the original post.

[bfrank]

This goes beyond looks easily.Keep in mind Alicia keys was collecting dust at columbia records before Clive Davis took her to J records.

she was also an underaged kid, and her image got softened up/sexed up quite a bit (after the move)......

If you think they aren't selling these chicks, you need to wake up.....

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

she was also an underaged kid, and her image got softened up/sexed up quite a bit (after the move)......

If you think they aren't selling these chicks, you need to wake up.....it still prove his point in a way...basically if they had ever decided to release herr music they would have made her inevitably change that too.not just her looks...