What Do I Have In Common With A Child-Killing Cannibal?

[Michael P]

I mean, other than home state, hobbies, and psychological problems?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191879,00.html

So, this guy killed, dismembered, and was probably going to eat his ten-year-old neighbor.

But wait, there's more: http://futureworldruler.blogspot.com/

Scroll down past the "News Of The Weird" links, and you begin to see a disturbing picture: Lonely, socially awkward nerd, with strange interests, depressed, apathetic, uncertain. At my worst moments, I've had some of these same feelings.

And there's more than a few posts that chill me with how close they are to thoughts I've had?

I've never understood what's supposed to be fun about getting drunk. What's fun about slurring and stumbling and acting like an idiot? Or, even worse, falling down, vomiting, and passing out? ... Because I can't handle the social interaction, and I get pissed off. Pissed off at myself for not being able to be social, and pissed off at the other people because they can, and pissed off at God for making me be this way. If there is a God. Pretty much the only time I believe in God is when I want to blame Him for something. Or, when I'm really depressed, to cry and beg him to make me better, to make whatever is wrong in my brain go away, so that I can live like a normal person.


I guess I'm just too nice, women all want to be friends with me. Even girls I don't like have told me what a nice guy I am, and, as if that wasn't bad enough, I've even been told that "I actually forget you're a guy, I don't even think of you as a guy, you're like one of the girls to me."

That fucking hurts.

I'd always been shy around people, even though I was always goofing off and being the class clown in the past, I was still shy in certain situations, especially when it came to one-on-one human interaction. Goofing off for a class full of people I could handle. But trying to talk to just one person made me nervous. It had never really been much of a problem before, though, but when I went to college, it got out of control. As time went by, I kept getting more and more nervous and scared. ... I was very in love with [a girl], but, like always, I never said anything to her, I never told her I liked her, or asked her out. We were friends, and talked to each other a lot at work, but that was all we were. Then, she started dating a guy ... This made me even more depressed, but I didn't give up hope that maybe they'd break up or something, and someday I'd have a chance with her. ... I was such a coward. I was too afraid to talk to people, too afraid to ask girls out even after being in love with them for months. I was even too afraid to kill myself even though I wanted to.

Over time I started getting a little better, but I battled depression for a couple of years. I still have the social phobia, and very occasionally small bouts of depression, but I'm much better than I was then, at least when it comes to the depression.

There but for the Grace of God go I? It haunts me that the basic difference between me and this guy might boil down to I went to a shrink, and he didn't.

You may think I'm overreacting, but, well... none of you knew me "before." Before I was properly diagnosed. Before I got on the right medication. Before I had a handle on my anger and my anxiety. I was not a pleasant person to be around. If you could travel back in time and see me in elementary school, you would never guess that kid would grow up to be me. Hell, that kid would have been lucky if he'd grown up to be iwarrior. And if he hadn't gotten help, that kid might very well have grown up to be this guy.

Even "after" (I divide my life like an alcoholic, "before" and "after"), I've dealt with depression, social phobia, feeling like I'm somehow set apart from everyone else. That I've had such love and support from my family and friends, I give massive amounts of thanks for every day.

But Jesus, this is like looking into a mirror made by Stephen King. I don't know whether to feel fortunate or frightened. Is the line between sanity and madness really that thin? Was it just a medical role of the dice that made me a published author and Managing Editor, and him a psychotic killer?

I don't know. I'm not sure I want to know. But I do know that I'm gonna take my pills today.

[BlairH]

I guess I'm just too nice, women all want to be friends with me. Even girls I don't like have told me what a nice guy I am, and, as if that wasn't bad enough, I've even been told that "I actually forget you're a guy, I don't even think of you as a guy, you're like one of the girls to me."

That fucking hurts.
That's a crock of shite!

I'm sorry but I hate this "I'm too nice. Women don't like nice men." crap, it's absolute nonsense. True there are some women who like to date arseholes, but by and large, nice girls like nice guys. People who believe otherwise are just feeling sorry for themselves.

[literally exaggerated]

The problem isn't being "too nice", its not being assertive/confident enough. Assholes often have success with women because they're confident, but plenty of nice guys do too, for essentially the same reason. Obviously this guy wasn't "nice" or he wouldn't have dismembered a little girl.

Shyness and insecurity do not equate to be nice, nor does lacking those traits make one an asshole.

[Justin Davis]

I think you two are missing Michael's point.

He's going to kill you in your sleep now.

[Gideon Quinn]

I also share nearly all of those characteristics with him. The only difference is that I perform well at one-on-one interaction, but I am incompetent at group interaction.

[JeffreyWKramer]

There but for the Grace of God go I? It haunts me that the basic difference between me and this guy might boil down to I went to a shrink, and he didn't.

You may think I'm overreacting, but, well... none of you knew me "before." Before I was properly diagnosed. Before I got on the right medication. Before I had a handle on my anger and my anxiety. I was not a pleasant person to be around. If you could travel back in time and see me in elementary school, you would never guess that kid would grow up to be me. Hell, that kid would have been lucky if he'd grown up to be iwarrior. And if he hadn't gotten help, that kid might very well have grown up to be this guy.

I rather doubt you would have ended up like this guy even without help, Michael. I say that because, whatever things you and he have in common, there is something important you have that he does not.

A conscience.

Along with whatever other pathology someone like this has, the individual has to be either a) psychotic and delusional, or b) psychopathic. B is by far the more common element.

I'm not saying it's not a good thing you got help. It certainly is a very good thing, and has improved your life immensely. But ending up like this? Doesn't seem very likely.

Looked at from some viewpoints, the things we have in common are more important than the differences. We're all human, for example - despite race, social status, country of origin, religious belief or lack thereof, education level, etc., we're all human, and that is more important than the differences between us. Looked at from a different point of view, though, the differences can be astounding. Consider the similarities between Teddy Roosevelt and George W. Bush. Wealthy guys, politicians, presidents, like the outdoors. They seem to have a lot in common. Until you look at the differences. Then you see how important those differences can be.

The difference between you and this guy, which makes it pretty much certain you wouldn't do these kind of horrid acts, is that you aren't a psychopath. Social awkwardness, all that, you have in common. But psychopathy? No. You care about other people. You have a sense of empathy. You feel guilty when you do bad things. This guy? That ain't there, I can pretty much guarantee you.

And that, good fellow, makes all the difference in the world.

[Michael P]

I rather doubt you would have ended up like this guy even without help, Michael. I say that because, whatever things you and he have in common, there is something important you have that he does not.

A conscience.

Along with whatever other pathology someone like this has, the individual has to be either a) psychotic and delusional, or b) psychopathic. B is by far the more common element.

I'm not saying it's not a good thing you got help. It certainly is a very good thing, and has improved your life immensely. But ending up like this? Doesn't seem very likely.

Looked at from some viewpoints, the things we have in common are more important than the differences. We're all human, for example - despite race, social status, country of origin, religious belief or lack thereof, education level, etc., we're all human, and that is more important than the differences between us. Looked at from a different point of view, though, the differences can be astounding. Consider the similarities between Teddy Roosevelt and George W. Bush. Wealthy guys, politicians, presidents, like the outside. They seem to have a lot in common. Until you look at the differences. Then you see how important differences can be.

The difference between you and this guy, which makes it pretty much certain you wouldn't do these kind of horrid acts, is that you aren't a psychopath. Social awkwardness, all that, you have in common. But psychopathy? No. You care about other people. You have a sense of empathy. You feel guilty when you do bad things. This guy? That ain't there, I can pretty much guarantee you.

And that, good fellow, makes all the difference in the world.
You, sir, are wise. Even when I was a little Hellion, I had a guilt complex you could pilot the Spruce Goose through.

[literally exaggerated]

The difference between you and this guy, which makes it pretty much certain you wouldn't do these kind of horrid acts, is that you aren't a psychopath. Social awkwardness, all that, you have in common. But psychopathy? No. You care about other people. You have a sense of empathy. You feel guilty when you do bad things. This guy? That ain't there, I can pretty much guarantee you.

I dunno, from what little I've read on the subject, in many cases these guys are absolutely overcome by self-loathing for the things they do, which drives them to do them again since feeling so horrible was what drove them to it in the first place, which makes them hate themselves even more, and so on and so forth. Less unfeeling monster, more pathetic cesspool of self-hatred and misplaced rage.

[Noah Johnson]

There but for the Grace of God go I? It haunts me that the basic difference between me and this guy might boil down to I went to a shrink, and he didn't.
We all like to believe that The Bad People are so utterly different from ourselves that we could never, ever be like them. It's a comforting belief. When you look at individual cases, though, the differences come down to very tiny things. A little bad wiring, some different experiences, one guy who got some help at the right time and another guy who didn't. These little differences magnify themselves over time, like changing the aim one degree on a gun and missing the target by twenty feet.

We want to believe that someone who could do something like this is inhuman, but the history of humanity suggests that's not the case.

So yes, you got lucky in that you didn't become this guy. You got lucky when you weren't born to a Sudanese peasant farmer, too. Don't be ashamed of being lucky; just don't let it make you dehumanize those with less luck.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I dunno, from what little I've read on the subject, in many cases these guys are absolutely overcome by self-loathing for the things they do, which drives them to do them again since feeling so horrible was what drove them to it in the first place, which makes them hate themselves even more, and so on and so forth. Less unfeeling monster, more pathetic cesspool of self-hatred and misplaced rage.


That's the common story - the self-loathing monster - but in fact, that is a very, very rare thing. A lot of these guys are good at pretending they hate themselves, of course, just like they're good at pretending to be remorseful, but their histories and their actions demonstrate otherwise. So, usually, does evaluation by a trained evaluator who doesn't just take what someone says at face value. Take out the psychotic ones - the ones who commit their crimes due to schizophrenic delusions and the like - and you're left with a bunch of psychopathic and narcissistic folk who may know on one level that they are scum, but who still do what they do because it's what gets them off, and don't really feel bad about that.

I can think of one serial murderer, for example, which fits the mold you suggest. Ed Kemper. After a couple of murders - including his mother, the person he was really upset all along with - he called the police and turned himself in. But even Ed didn't really have any remorse for his crimes... more just disgust for who he was, and what a pathetic loser he was.

Suggestion - don't believe everything some true-crime journalist writes, especially if a lot of it is based on the statements of one of these guys. Think about it a moment - why on earth would you trust the statements of someone who would murder and plan to eat a child?

[JeffreyWKramer]

You, sir, are wise. Even when I was a little Hellion, I had a guilt complex you could pilot the Spruce Goose through.

And that's why, even at your worst, you were never at danger of ending up like this guy.

Keep in mind, psychopathy is wired-in. You don't have the faulty wiring, you can still be plenty fucked-up, but not in that particular way.

[Solaris]

The problem isn't being "too nice", its not being assertive/confident enough. Assholes often have success with women because they're confident, but plenty of nice guys do too, for essentially the same reason. Obviously this guy wasn't "nice" or he wouldn't have dismembered a little girl.

Shyness and insecurity do not equate to be nice, nor does lacking those traits make one an asshole.


And therein lies one more difference between you and this guy, Michael: both had problems with shyness and insecurity, but you are nice and he is not. You would *not* be having sick fantasies about killing and eating someone, and if your brain *started* something like that, we'd be buying you a new pair of tennis shoes, because you'd burn off the soles of your own, getting to the therapist so fast. :)

You recognized you had problems with insecurity, anxiety, depression, etc., and you sought help, and got it. That alone speaks to the courage of your character. This guy not only didn't (as many don't)... he also indulged himself in nurturing a harmful and sick fantasy, rather than seeking help the moment it first crossed his mind; and anything you indulge like that, you're watering and feeding and making it grow to become a bigger and bigger part of your life and yourself. I'm certain the fantasy at some point crossed the line into obsession.

From my own internal understanding of depression, it is anger and frustration turned inward, either because the person fears expressing the anger, or because they'd rather harm themselves than someone else. For me, it's anger over things I think I can't change, like when we've hit a bad financial crunch and bill collectors are ringing the phone off the hook, and I fear that we may lose something like our house, our car, etc... and that anger and frustration and yes, feeling of complete inability to affect or change the situation, often turns into a feeling of "we're never gonna get out of this"---ta da: depression.

Depression also involves a strong feeling of helplessness; a lack of power to change anything about what is wrong. The immediate problem looms as a mountain hovering over you, leaving you in it's shadow. If it's a longterm repeat problem (as our finances, or in this guy's case, his inability to be more forthcoming with girls, etc.), that simply increases your feelings of "it's never going to go away, I'll never change it."

Yet change IS possible, and current sucky situtations DO get better. Part of it is understanding that. Part of it is tackling the mountain one rock/one piece at a time, rather than trying to move the whole thing at once.

I'm very well aware of the enormous anger and frustration that lie beneath my depression, when I get into a depressive state. If I were to indulge in it without a single care for who I affect or the consequences, you'd likely see some news story about this crazy woman who went to a big bank office or some corporate building and started busting out windows with a sledgehammer. That too is a key to the direction of my personality: even at my angriest, I'd rather bust up inantimate objects than people; and ideally it would be objects related to much of the source of my anger.

The fact that I *don't* indulge that anger lies in a strong understanding of both consequences (who wants jail?) and also of how even destroying objects can affect other people, often innocent bystanders. In other words, if I was pissed at Bill Gates, I'd much rather bust up *his* particular office, than just walk into the local store and start busting up microsoft packages. The latter would cause headaches for the store's staff, and not really affect Gates at all.

I guess my point in that is that even in expressing the extreme anger I feel at times, I don't want to harm anyone, or create a mess I can't fix. The few times I've vented enough to break something it's been something cheap and usually easy to clean up---an old plastic ashtray thrown at our fence, a plastic bottle thrown at a wall, etc. I learned not to break our dishes, because we have the kind which almost never chip---BUT, something in their makeup contains enormous kinetic force. If one shatters, the stuff shrapnels far and wide, and gets quite an impressive bounce, too. I kid you not---I found slivers 30 feet away from where I broke the saucer. That one involved lots of very annoying cleanup, and I won't do it again. :D

But again, I almost never vent to the point of actually breaking something... but sometimes that means holding onto the anger *does* turn into a depression... which I still have to work my way out of. Time and experience have taught me how to do that, and if I can't (say it's something beyond my prior experience, like when Meg tried suicide), I'll see a professional.

At any rate, while there may be superficial similarities between your life and this guy's... underneath, you're vastly different people, and YOU have met your problems with the focus of turning your life in the right direction, and continued to pursue that. That alone speaks very highly of your character, aside from the other things you've shared with us about yourself. :) I mentioned a while back, the amount of wisdom you've amassed in the time I've known you makes my jaw drop. :D

[JeffreyWKramer]

We all like to believe that The Bad People are so utterly different from ourselves that we could never, ever be like them. It's a comforting belief. When you look at individual cases, though, the differences come down to very tiny things. A little bad wiring, some different experiences, one guy who got some help at the right time and another guy who didn't.

The difference between someone who has Down's syndrome, and someone who does not, is also a very tiny thing. But when you're talking about the wiring, those tiny things can make a very, very big difference indeed.

People can be bad without that wiring. They can be a wide variety of bad. Milgram's obedience experiments proved that, as does the long history of ordinary men doing extraordinarily awful things under the right circumstances. But the kind of bad that leads a person to commit murder with plans for cannibalism, or the kind that leads to a person being a serial rapist/murderer - so far as we know, that kind of bad comes from only from stuff that you're either wired for, or you aren't, and it's usually not that hard to tell the difference.

[Nikita]

There but for the Grace of God go I? It haunts me that the basic difference between me and this guy might boil down to I went to a shrink, and he didn't.

You may think I'm overreacting, but, well... none of you knew me "before." Before I was properly diagnosed. Before I got on the right medication. Before I had a handle on my anger and my anxiety. I was not a pleasant person to be around. If you could travel back in time and see me in elementary school, you would never guess that kid would grow up to be me. Hell, that kid would have been lucky if he'd grown up to be iwarrior. And if he hadn't gotten help, that kid might very well have grown up to be this guy.

Even "after" (I divide my life like an alcoholic, "before" and "after"), I've dealt with depression, social phobia, feeling like I'm somehow set apart from everyone else. That I've had such love and support from my family and friends, I give massive amounts of thanks for every day.

But Jesus, this is like looking into a mirror made by Stephen King. I don't know whether to feel fortunate or frightened. Is the line between sanity and madness really that thin? Was it just a medical role of the dice that made me a published author and Managing Editor, and him a psychotic killer?

I don't know. I'm not sure I want to know. But I do know that I'm gonna take my pills today.




But you did get to a therapist, and you are on medication.
Don't compare yourself to him as far as how you used to be. Compare yourself to him as far as how you are now.

You never became a psycho. You became you. :cool:

You're not overreacting, it just pushed an old button in you. But remember, it's an old button. You've gotten healthier mentally and you've become a different person. That is why he sucks and you don't. ;)

[Noah Johnson]

The difference between someone who has Down's syndrome, and someone who does not, is also a very tiny thing. But when you're talking about the wiring, those tiny things can make a very, very big difference indeed.
Well, yes. That's what I'm saying. The distance between Us and Them is never as large as we think it is, (for all values of Us and Them) and it behooves us to remember that.

I'd also suggest that 10,000 years of military history tends to indicate that your theory that you have to be wired funny to kill children may be wrong.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I'd also suggest that 10,000 years of military history tends to indicate that your theory that you have to be wired funny to kill children may be wrong.

Killing children, or acts of rape, or even torture? Those can happen from lots of causes, and peer pressure, dehumanization of the enemy and other factors common in military settings and during war is certainly one.

But doing it for pleasure, as an individual choice? For a snack? That comes from fucked up wiring.

[StoneGold]

Killing children, or acts of rape, or even torture? Those can happen from lots of causes, and peer pressure, dehumanization of the enemy and other factors common in military settings and during war is certainly one.

But doing it for pleasure, as an individual choice? For a snack? That comes from fucked up wiring.
That's just because you're too lazy to write a decent motive.

[Gideon Quinn]

I can think of one serial murderer, for example, which fits the mold you suggest. Ed Kemper.Just curious. What was Ed Gein's likely problem?

[Dan Apodaca]

Have bouts of cannibalism, do you?

[StoneGold]

The thing to remember is you're too much of a pussy to hack up and eat a kid. So don't worry.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Just curious. What was Ed Gein's likely problem?

Ed Gein was pretty clearly schizophrenic. Had he not mostly kept to himself and lived in a semi-rural area, he'd probably have been institutionalized before he could commit his crimes. As is, once he was apprehended, the authorities immediately recognized he was severely mentally ill.