Christians Who Don't Know The Reason For Easter

[Super Hero Guy]

I was shocked, outraged, and undeniabley amused, to learn that not one, but TWO Christian co-workers of mine have no idea what the reason for Easter is. This all started from a Sikh co-worker asking everyone if they actually knew what Easter was about. I thought it would be impossible for somebody not to know, but I got proved wrong. One person hazarded to guess it had "something to do with Christ." Another just answered, "I don't know. I'm a Christian but I don't waste time with church and shit."

What kind of world do we live in that these kind of people can be employable?

[SteelTownr]

They are so dum!

Everyone knows it is about candy!

Mark B.

[Spike-X]

They're not Christians. They're "Well, I'm not any of those other things...I guess that makes me a Christian!"

[Valmore]

Unless they're applying for a job in a Christian field or organization, I don't think their not knowing that Easter is about the resurrection of Jesus is a requirement to not employ them.

However, I'd say their lack of Christian canon kind of preculdes them from being true Christians just yet.

[meethraa]

What kind of world do we live in that these kind of people can be employable?
A non-theocratic kind of world?


Sorry, couldn't resist.

[StoneGold]

Easter be all 'bout this.

http://www.thefootnote.com/vol1/may04/cream-eggs.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~massbackwards/cadbury.jpg

[Adam Crocker]

They are so dum!

Everyone knows it is about candy!

I thought it was about Jesus...turning into candy.

[SteelTownr]

I thought it was about Jesus...turning into candy.

I think he turned the fish for seven into enough candy to feed 40 and the water into Hershey's Syrup.

Mark B.

[meethraa]

"Mummy, I woke up today and there was a Lincoln log in me sock drawer!"
"That's the story of Jesus!"

[SUPERECWFAN1]

As someone who interviewed the Easter Bunny , he'd be pissed. He already told me what the reason is for Easter. He does it for the p-ssy!! ;)

[Magneto_X]

Easter be all 'bout this.

http://www.thefootnote.com/vol1/may04/cream-eggs.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~massbackwards/cadbury.jpg

I'm addicted to those things.

[Rachel Grey]

Easter be all 'bout this.
http://home.comcast.net/~massbackwards/cadbury.jpg

And once again StoneGold hits the bullseye. :)

[Mike Smith]

As a Christian am appreciative of the what the day means to me and a little disappointed with lost meaning to some individuals.

Cadbury eggs are just too good.

[spazzy mcghee]

Well, I think nearly all of our "Christian" holidays have lost their meaning. Oh well. Apparently if you try and tell anyone about it, your branded a bigot or an intolerant racist and dismissed as such. I'll say my prayer and read my Bible today. I'll even pray for the rest of you. :)

[Spike-X]

Well, I think nearly all of our "Christian" holidays have lost their meaning. Oh well. Apparently if you try and tell anyone about it, your branded a bigot or an intolerant racist and dismissed as such.

Yes, dear. Of course you are.

*pats on head*

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Well, I think nearly all of our "Christian" holidays have lost their meaning.

Well, our 'Christian' holidays were stolen away from other religons holidays/festivals, so it's just fair that they move onto somthing else.


Oh well. Apparently if you try and tell anyone about it, your branded a bigot or an intolerant racist and dismissed as such.

I wouldn't brand you as a racist or a bigot, I'd just say your a bit boring for going on about it.

The Royal Easter show went back to it's name though, after last years attempts at changing it to somthing non-denominational.

I'll say my prayer and read my Bible today. I'll even pray for the rest of you. :)

No thanks, you can leave me out - I find people talking to themselves to be rather disturbing.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

Why the Church ever allowed Egg Hunts, Bunnies lil Chicks and Pastel Clothes as marking the Resurrection of Jesus is beyond me in the first place.

But then again some say the Roman Church adopted earlier celebrations that were practiced by pagans and threw jesus' name on them to make everyone happy.

[Spike-X]

Why the Church ever allowed Egg Hunts, Bunnies lil Chicks and Pastel Clothes as marking the Resurrection of Jesus is beyond me in the first place.

Umm...maybe because the Church (whatever church you're talking about; there's a whole bunch of 'em, y'know) doesn't run the entire frickin' world?

But then again some say the Roman Church adopted earlier celebrations that were practiced by pagans and threw jesus' name on them to make everyone happy.

"Some say"?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

"Some say"?

It's a viscious rumour with no proof spread by the devils followers to damn more sould to the firey pits of hell.

[Boldido]

While I cannot reconcile the idea of calling yourself a christian with not knowing that Easter is about the ressurrection, I have to confess that Easter, which is supposed to be the most joyous and holy of christian holidays, always leaves me feeling somewhat hollow.

I can't shake the feeling that the whole ressurection was a big scam. Look at Christmas. When Jesus was born there was a star in the sky, the shepards came in from the field and three wisemen brought gifts. Oh, and angels announced the birth.

Fast forward to easter. The stone that covered the unguarded tomb of Jesus is rolled away and its empty. His followers, who claim that he is the son of God, are the only ones who see him alive and then, rather than continue his teachings he ascends into heaven. If someone tried that as proof divinity today who would believe them?

I always walk away from church with the feeling that I've been had.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I thought it was about Jesus...turning into candy.


No, it was about Jesus dying for your sins... and the Easter Bunny bringing Him back by feeding Him parts of himself, which Jesus transubstantiated into chocolate. I think Jesus also ate some baby chicks, first turning them into marshmallows, but that might have been at the Last Supper.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Fast forward to easter. The stone that covered the unguarded tomb of Jesus is rolled away and its empty. His followers, who claim that he is the son of God, are the only ones who see him alive and then, rather than continue his teachings he ascends into heaven. If someone tried that as proof divinity today who would believe them?

I always walk away from church with the feeling that I've been had.

You also are probably too smart to fall for those "Help me, I'm an African refugee who needs money" email scams.

[Boldido]

You also are probably too smart to fall for those "Help me, I'm an African refugee who needs money" email scams.

Scam? You mean I'm not getting 2.1 million dollars from Dr. Okon? Next thing I know you are going to tell me that Bill Gates isn't going to send me to Disney World after frowarding his e-mail.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Scam? You mean I'm not getting 2.1 million dollars from Dr. Okon? Next thing I know you are going to tell me that Bill Gates isn't going to send me to Disney World after frowarding his e-mail.

Better go bite the head off a chocolate Jesus-bunny. You'll feel better if you do.

[Michael P]

"Mummy, I woke up today and there was a Lincoln log in me sock drawer!"
"That's the story of Jesus!"
Oh, Bill. We miss you.

[Gaz]

Oh, Bill. We miss you.
"Well, at least a goldfish crawling across the bedroom floor with a Lincoln log on his back is truly miraculous!"

[gary bolt]

If Jesus sees his shadow on Easter Sunday we get 6 more weeks of winter.

[Noah Johnson]

Well, I think nearly all of our "Christian" holidays have lost their meaning.
That is SO CUTE.

Someone else want to explain where the eggs, the rabbits, and the actual word Easter come from, or shall I?

[Solaris]

They're not Christians. They're "Well, I'm not any of those other things...I guess that makes me a Christian!"


*amused* That's quite likely the literal truth.

As to the employment question, Hero Guy, I would guess you mean "How can someone this stupid be hired for a job?" Well, a lack of knowledge in one area, even in an area that most people would know the answer to, doesn't mean the person is necessarily stupid in *every* area of their life or learning.

For instance, you have maps and globes everywhere you turn... but a fair amount of people on the street, if you asked them where Washington D.C. is, with the answers being:

a. Washington State
b. Virginia State
c. New York State
d. District of Columbia
e. Alaska State

...would likely say it's in Washington State or New York State. Yet those same people might be quite knowledgeable about plumbing, or medicine, or car design. It always seems weird, or almost criminal, when a majority of people don't know basic answers in an area (i.e. what is the signifcance of the year 1776 to U.S. Citizens?)... but it's only one area, and one question, and while it makes us all *look* really dumb, it *might* not be the case.

I saw a billboard the other day for a new rollercoaster at Six Flags over Georgia: The GOLIATH coaster (done in huge, mountain-shaped caps). When I saw the billboard, I wondered how many who read it would understand that the name "Goliath" came from the Bible story about a young shepherd defeating an unnaturally tall, seasoned warrior with a simple sling and rock. Likewise, if it had been named "Prometheus," I would wonder how many would read the name and know the Greek story of the God who gave mankind fire despite the rules not to. :)

I know basic geography, but I'm no specialist, and if I want to know where something is, I find a map. I know the location of D.C.---but I don't know every state capital, or the exact layout of all the states (which one touches what, and where). I'm visual for the latter, so if you hand me a puzzle with state-shaped pieces, yes, I can get them in the proper places... but don't ask me what states border Idaho, for example. I know it's in the midwest/north, and that's about it. :D

I guess what I'm saying is that there's a limit to how much most people can retain in their heads, and often we use books (and now internet, etc.) to go to for knowledge we don't have room for in our own brains, or just could never get to stick properly. But, when it comes to the "common knowledge" things like "Jesus and Easter," or "Where is D.C.?" etc., it always seems strange if someone doesn't know it.

When it comes to basic common knowledge, the most frequent and pervasive way it's passed on is via elementary education. If a large number of people are becoming adults *without* knowing something very basic, like where D.C. is or what 1776 means, then yes, it's a cause for concern, because there's an awful lot of things in our culture that relate to things "everyone knows", and they're used (especially in literature and history) as a form of "short hand" reference. If you don't know Napolean met a catastrophic and final defeat at Waterloo, reading a headline that "President meets his Waterloo" doesn't make much sense.

[Solaris]

If Jesus sees his shadow on Easter Sunday we get 6 more weeks of winter.


*falls over laughing*

I'm sorry---there's nothing I can add to that; it's just a gem all on its own.

[Solaris]

Well, I think nearly all of our "Christian" holidays have lost their meaning. Oh well. Apparently if you try and tell anyone about it, your branded a bigot or an intolerant racist and dismissed as such. I'll say my prayer and read my Bible today. I'll even pray for the rest of you. :)


That's not true, just as it's not true that St. Patrick's Day has lost its meaning to the Irish because we Americans celebrate the hell out of it.

Honestly, the problem comes in, for Christians, when they start believing the notion that, because someone else celebrates the cultural and/or commercial aspects of a holiday they claim as their own (see footnote), the holiday has lost its meaning.

Bushwah. That's like an artist saying "you can't hang my painting in a nightclub, because a nightclub environment makes the picture lose all meaning."

Spazzy, so long as there are Christians out there who know and understand the meaning of their Holy Days, and celebrate/observe them as such, the day has NOT lost its meaning in the Christian context. Basically, modern Christians keep trying to claim some kind of "complete ownership" of these holidays, and completely ignore several things:

1. Pretty much any kind of holiday has taken on a cultural meaning/signficance that is only loosely related to, or is in fact completely divorced from, the meaning the day has to a particular religion. That's normal cultural development, and it happens in every culture. In latterday Pagan Rome, for example, most people took their holy days as a time to party, and only a part of the population observed said days in the strict religious context.

2. I can't think of a single Holy Day that is widespread across Christianity (not including the Catholic's "Saints Days") that wasn't adapted to, aligned with, borrowed from, or set by the calendar to match with, a Holy or Cultural Day from something that was not Christian. As a Pagan, if I wanted to mimic the way some Christians act about Holy Days, I could easily point to Christmas and say "You've stolen Yule! It's lost all meaning! You make no mention of the Goddess on that day!" Get it? ;)

The complaints of some Christians over the "secularization" of what they call a Christian Holiday is, in reality, as simple as a child in the sandbox saying "NO! YOU CANNOT MAKE BARBIE MARRY G.I. JOE! HE'S MY TOY, AND HE'S A SOLDIER, AND SOLDIERS DON'T DO TEA PARTIES!"

Those Christians who have concern over all that stuff are really, IMO, displaying both some ignorance and some selfishness---ignorance of where their holidays came from and of normal cultural growth, and selfishness in trying to impose *their* meaning for the day upon everyone within the culture.

I am dead dog positive that, if Jesus came walking down the street and you asked him, "Does it upset you that Christmas has lost all meaning?" he would smile gently and say, "So long as one person maintains in their heart the joy and reverence for Me coming here to give you My Father's Love, the meaning is still here. Go now and do likewise."

:)

[Lame Duck !]

Damn That's well put !

[StoneGold]

Well, I think nearly all of our "Christian" holidays have lost their meaning.
Yeah, the meaning of taking pagan spring planting festivals and making them Christian so the people forget their old gods.


EDIT: Dang, somehow the last page wasn't showing and I didn't read what Solaris said.

[Michael P]

(i.e. what is the signifcance of the year 1776 to U.S. Citizens?)
That's the year on all the Sam Adams bottles, right?

[Adam Crocker]

As a Pagan, if I wanted to mimic the way some Christians act about Holy Days, I could easily point to Christmas and say "You've stolen Yule! It's lost all meaning! You make no mention of the Goddess on that day!" Get it? ;)

They stole Yule!? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Now our crops won't grow in the spring because Freyr hasn't had his sacrifice!

[Mike Smith]

Didn't Irish Catholics recently ban gays from marching in the St. Patty's day parade?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Didn't Irish Catholics recently ban gays from marching in the St. Patty's day parade?

That happened in Chicago, anyhow. A gay Irish group was not allowed to take part in the parade.

[Usagi_Yojimbo]

Actually, Easter itself is one of those pagan holidays the rome integrated into christian tradition. Easter is derived from Ishtar, and it kinda was once a day to celebrate fertility, which is where the eggs come in, and at the end of celebrations, they have a mass orgy. Thankfully, since it was put on the same day as the Ressurection, we can safely ignore normal easter traditions and go for the Ressurection Day holiday. (pretty much easter with out the eggs and stupid rainbow bunny,)

[Grazzt]

Actually, Easter itself is one of those pagan holidays the rome integrated into christian tradition. Easter is derived from Ishtar, and it kinda was once a day to celebrate fertility, which is where the eggs come in, and at the end of celebrations, they have a mass orgy. Thankfully, since it was put on the same day as the Ressurection, we can safely ignore normal easter traditions and go for the Ressurection Day holiday. (pretty much easter with out the eggs and stupid rainbow bunny,)

Thankfully? I want my orgies back, dangnabbit! :p

[Night]

I was shocked, outraged, and undeniabley amused, to learn that not one, but TWO Christian co-workers of mine have no idea what the reason for Easter is. This all started from a Sikh co-worker asking everyone if they actually knew what Easter was about. I thought it would be impossible for somebody not to know, but I got proved wrong. One person hazarded to guess it had "something to do with Christ." Another just answered, "I don't know. I'm a Christian but I don't waste time with church and shit."

What kind of world do we live in that these kind of people can be employable?

I was going to say that “Easter” an “unchurched Christian” might not have been exposed to the idea since wasn’t mentioned in the Bible, but King James Version and Bishop’s Translation do translate “Passover” to “Easter” in Acts 12:4; however, if you had neither of these translations, you would not know that…. And if you read the context “Passover” makes more sense.

However, the church is mentioned often… I know I would not be as strong a Christian if I had remained outside a good church. For iron sharpens iron so do friends sharpen each other.That's not true, just as it's not true that St. Patrick's Day has lost its meaning to the Irish because we Americans celebrate the hell out of it.

Honestly, the problem comes in, for Christians, when they start believing the notion that, because someone else celebrates the cultural and/or commercial aspects of a holiday they claim as their own (see footnote), the holiday has lost its meaning.

Bushwah. That's like an artist saying "you can't hang my painting in a nightclub, because a nightclub environment makes the picture lose all meaning."

Spazzy, so long as there are Christians out there who know and understand the meaning of their Holy Days, and celebrate/observe them as such, the day has NOT lost its meaning in the Christian context. Basically, modern Christians keep trying to claim some kind of "complete ownership" of these holidays, and completely ignore several things:

1. Pretty much any kind of holiday has taken on a cultural meaning/signficance that is only loosely related to, or is in fact completely divorced from, the meaning the day has to a particular religion. That's normal cultural development, and it happens in every culture. In latterday Pagan Rome, for example, most people took their holy days as a time to party, and only a part of the population observed said days in the strict religious context.

2. I can't think of a single Holy Day that is widespread across Christianity (not including the Catholic's "Saints Days") that wasn't adapted to, aligned with, borrowed from, or set by the calendar to match with, a Holy or Cultural Day from something that was not Christian. As a Pagan, if I wanted to mimic the way some Christians act about Holy Days, I could easily point to Christmas and say "You've stolen Yule! It's lost all meaning! You make no mention of the Goddess on that day!" Get it? ;)

The complaints of some Christians over the "secularization" of what they call a Christian Holiday is, in reality, as simple as a child in the sandbox saying "NO! YOU CANNOT MAKE BARBIE MARRY G.I. JOE! HE'S MY TOY, AND HE'S A SOLDIER, AND SOLDIERS DON'T DO TEA PARTIES!"

Those Christians who have concern over all that stuff are really, IMO, displaying both some ignorance and some selfishness---ignorance of where their holidays came from and of normal cultural growth, and selfishness in trying to impose *their* meaning for the day upon everyone within the culture.

I am dead dog positive that, if Jesus came walking down the street and you asked him, "Does it upset you that Christmas has lost all meaning?" he would smile gently and say, "So long as one person maintains in their heart the joy and reverence for Me coming here to give you My Father's Love, the meaning is still here. Go now and do likewise."

:) I really enjoy when non-Christians tell me what Christ would do…. especially after the lecture about stealing other people’s religious ideas. Welcome to the “Sandbox” :D

In this case you're right in a lot of ways. There is some Bible backing on letting others decide whether to honor a day or not (though it mostly talked about the Sabbath). He did make a reference to people “remembering me” on the last supper before crucifixion. However, when people who call themselves Christians go along with the de-Christian-ization of said holidays, then their Christian peers have more right to complain about it.

Moreover many Christians who speak against secularization of the holiday are doing so not because the non-Christians are taking the holiday, it’s because their own brothers and sisters (or those who claim to be such) are doing it. In that light they have a little more ground to speak out.

[Gaz]

Thankfully? I want my orgies back, dangnabbit! :p
Yeah, odd how these co-opted holidays lost all the fun stuff when they got "integrated" ain't it? :(

[Corsair]

Wait, so they don't do the orgies anymore? Damn, there's my evening shot.

















Dunno what I'm going to do with all the custard in the pool though...

[Grazzt]

Wait, so they don't do the orgies anymore? Damn, there's my evening shot.

















Dunno what I'm going to do with all the custard in the pool though...

Everybody, grab a spoon and head for Corsair's place!

[Night]

Actually, Easter itself is one of those pagan holidays the rome integrated into christian tradition. Easter is derived from Ishtar, and it kinda was once a day to celebrate fertility, which is where the eggs come in, and at the end of celebrations, they have a mass orgy. Thankfully, since it was put on the same day as the Ressurection, we can safely ignore normal easter traditions and go for the Ressurection Day holiday. (pretty much easter with out the eggs and stupid rainbow bunny,)
from Wikipedia (I know it's not the best source but it'll do)
Some suggest an etymological relationship between Eostre and the Sumerian goddess Ishtar ([2] [3] [4] [5]) and the possibility that aspects of an ancient festival accompanied the name, claiming that the worship of Bel and Astarte was anciently introduced into Britain, and that the hot cross buns of Good Friday and dyed eggs of Easter Sunday figured in the Chaldean rites just as they do now.

At best, any connection between Ishtar and Easter is geographically and linguistically distant, and tangential.

Claiming a connection between Ishtar and Easter also ignores the fact that Easter is called "Passover" in almost every other language in the world. (The only exceptions appear to be the languages of those people who first learned Christianity at the hands of English or other Anglophone missionaries.) Examples of this are the Hebrew Pesach; the Greek Paskha; the Latin Pascha; the Italian Pasqua; the Spanish La Pascua; and Scots Gaelic An Casca. The holiday was not called "Easter" until the 8th Century, by which time it had already been in existence for 700 years.

There is the additional problem that the very lands where Ishtar was once known have never been known to use a name like "Easter" for this or any other spring holiday.

[Totoro Man]

this holiday hasn't lost it's meaning any more than "Memorial Day" or "Veterans Day". most people don't give a rats ass why these days were made "special" they just want their three day weekend.

these days might mean something special to historians, or soldiers, or people who were still alive when those days were made holidays.

the bastardization, commercialization, and integration of holidays is inevitable. it's not worth getting upset over.

[Solaris]

Actually, Easter itself is one of those pagan holidays the rome integrated into christian tradition. Easter is derived from Ishtar, and it kinda was once a day to celebrate fertility, which is where the eggs come in, and at the end of celebrations, they have a mass orgy. Thankfully, since it was put on the same day as the Ressurection, we can safely ignore normal easter traditions and go for the Ressurection Day holiday. (pretty much easter with out the eggs and stupid rainbow bunny,)

In my tradition, it's called "Oestara," but yes it did/does related to fertility (rabbits and eggs) and the joy of renewal/Spring.

[Solaris]

I was going to say that “Easter” an “unchurched Christian” might not have been exposed to the idea since wasn’t mentioned in the Bible, but King James Version and Bishop’s Translation do translate “Passover” to “Easter” in Acts 12:4; however, if you had neither of these translations, you would not know that…. And if you read the context “Passover” makes more sense.

However, the church is mentioned often… I know I would not be as strong a Christian if I had remained outside a good church. For iron sharpens iron so do friends sharpen each other. I really enjoy when non-Christians tell me what Christ would do…. especially after the lecture about stealing other people’s religious ideas. Welcome to the “Sandbox” :D

In this case you're right in a lot of ways. There is some Bible backing on letting others decide whether to honor a day or not (though it mostly talked about the Sabbath). He did make a reference to people “remembering me” on the last supper before crucifixion. However, when people who call themselves Christians go along with the de-Christian-ization of said holidays, then their Christian peers have more right to complain about it.

Moreover many Christians who speak against secularization of the holiday are doing so not because the non-Christians are taking the holiday, it’s because their own brothers and sisters (or those who claim to be such) are doing it. In that light they have a little more ground to speak out.

I agree, and I was thinking about that in the car as we were running around this afternoon. A few years ago (20-30) the complaints you heard were from some Christians complaining that other Christians had given up most or all of the religious meaning of the holiday in favor of the secular celebration. That's an in-house argument, and fine by me... just as I can see how anyone, Christian or no, would wonder how on earth someone would call themselves Christian *without* understanding the Easter story of Jesus. That's pretty darn integral to the whole story of Jesus.

Over the last 5-10 years, though, we've started seeing a lot of the public complaints being over *society* not honoring the religious aspect... which is a whole 'nother kettle o' fish. Many of the complaining Christians aren't complaining about their fellows anymore (and lack of what they think is proper observance)---they're now complaining that *our society* isn't giving the holiday it's due reverence, respect, and observance. That contains the inherent assumption that either

a) we're all Christians, or

b) that non-Christians must *also* abide by, and celebrate the secular holiday, in the religious manner they expect Christians to do. They attempt to claim that Christmas, etc. are ONLY Christian holidays, and that the societal enjoyment of societal traditions related to the federal holiday are an attack on Christianity. To which I say "Bushwah."

If you think about it, the word "holiday" derives from the words "Holy Day"---yet we apply the word "holiday" to days of celebration that didn't come from *any* religion. 4th of July, for example. Memorial Day. Labor Day. Presidents' Day. Mt. Luther King Jr. Day. These folks objecting to society having a secular aspect to a traditional holiday is as silly as someone objecting to the fact that the word "holiday" is applied to non-religious-derived celebrations.

If they want to complain that other Christians have "forgotten the meaning of Christmas, Easter, etc.", that's fine and dandy. It's when they try to tell society at large "you aren't doing this right, this is an offense to me, etc." that they're going wrong... because they're ignoring the fact that the holiday is also a secular one, not just one important to a particular religion. If it were solely a religious holiday, then it would seem pretty odd that the Federal govt. would sanction it by declaring it a "federal holiday," don't you think? As it is, the Christians have it *quite* good, in the fact that some of their religious holidays HAVE also become secular celebrations---otherwise, they wouldn't get the day off work. Think about it---do we have a federal holiday for Passover? Rosh Hashana? (sp?) Beltane? Samhain? to name a few...

IMO, these Christians need to quit complaining about *society* having a secular holiday which in some fashion had ties to, or derives from, their holy days, confine their complaints to fellow Christians, and also enjoy the gravy they're getting with the fact that there IS a secular tradition... because it's that tradition, NOT the fact that it's a religious holy day, which makes it allowable as a federal holiday. So far as I know of, NO OTHER RELIGION IN THE U.S. can say that one or more of their holy days is ALSO a federal holiday, and that in most professions, they can count on a day off from work to celebrate it.

[Rabid Trekkie]

This is another one of those areas where my local congregation is pretty seperate from everyone else. A rather vocal part of the congregation loves going on about how we shouldn't celebrate any of the Christian holidays at all for various reasons.

The main one is Christmas, none of them will shut up about how Jesus wasn't really born in the winter. And of course last Christmas my Dad and another lady sent the little kids into tearful fits when they both let it slip that Santa wasn't real.

The same is true for the rest of the holidays as well though, "Shouldn't celebrate Easter because the kids will only think about rabbits" or "Valentine's Day is just a commercial holiday"* and the result is that myself and others don't have a strong connection to holidays. They're just any other day. The important thing is to remember Jesus every day and not just the few.

* Mr. "I hate Valentine's Day" is now divorced and alone, go figure.

[Nate C.]

Well, on topic, I did my part to correct the ignorance.

I spent 2 and a half hours reviewing the Atonement of Christ for my Sunday School lesson and spent an hour today explaining not only the facts of the cross, (the beatings, the mocking, the trials, the experience) but the meaning as well (the doctrines of atonement, sacrifice, propitiation, substitution, the four sufferings- the physical, the bearing of sin, the abandonment, and the wrath of the Father).

Well worth looking at, and my class was greatful for more than just, "Jesus died for you because he loved you" (which of course, is true enough).

[Solaris]

This is another one of those areas where my local congregation is pretty seperate from everyone else. A rather vocal part of the congregation loves going on about how we shouldn't celebrate any of the Christian holidays at all for various reasons.

The main one is Christmas, none of them will shut up about how Jesus wasn't really born in the winter. And of course last Christmas my Dad and another lady sent the little kids into tearful fits when they both let it slip that Santa wasn't real.

The same is true for the rest of the holidays as well though, "Shouldn't celebrate Easter because the kids will only think about rabbits" or "Valentine's Day is just a commercial holiday"* and the result is that myself and others don't have a strong connection to holidays. They're just any other day. The important thing is to remember Jesus every day and not just the few.

* Mr. "I hate Valentine's Day" is now divorced and alone, go figure.

What I like about Christmas, as a Pagan, is that during the darkest time of the year, many people have traditions and holy days that encourage a special remembrance of the Light, and giving love and kindness to others. It's not a cure-all, and yes, we ought to try to do those things year-round... but it's a start: a place to grow from. Plus, there's just something... magical about the time of year and the feeling of so very many *having* feelings of "good-will." It's like, the mental climate changes, as more people remember to act in a better way, and are more tender, and more caring of both loved ones and strangers.

I know that's not the case for all. I know there are people who are sour during the season, or feel stress from it, or try to take advantage of others because of it, or think it's stupid, or any number of other things that give off something negative about it---but somehow, overall, there's this special climate that kinda shines through at various moments during the holiday season, where Christmas is concerned... and I love that. I wish the world was more like that all of the time, but I certainly don't want to throw out the piece of it we have. I'd rather just see it grow to cover the whole year.

Yes, I'm a dreamer... but isn't it a nice dream?

[Callie]

I spent my Easter at work. Your boss may be a jewish carpenter, but mine is a jewish geek.

That's okay because Easter to me holds no meaning other than spending time with family and with candy.

[Spike-X]

Damn That's well put !
Yeah, she's good like that.

[Solaris]

from Wikipedia (I know it's not the best source but it'll do)


Hmmm. I'd not heard of "Ishtar" being where "Easter" is derived from, so I wasn't going to go one way or the other on that.

However, as I understand it, Oestara is a *celtic* holiday in celebration of Spring and Fertility. It might be that it was also observed in the Norse mythos---I don't know enough about that to be sure, but I *do* know that there was a fair amount of interaction between the Norse and the Celts, especially the Irish, from Viking/Norse raiders, as well as some royal and other intermarriages. There *are* a few parallels between British Isles (not just limited to Celts, but including Britons and Picts) mythos and Norse, for example.

And the name "Easter" was derived from the British Isles' Pagan holiday. The merging of the two by early Christian evangelicals was made much easier, since Passover and Oestara occur during roughly the same time frame in the calendar (with a few days or weeks give and take, depending---IIRC Passover is determined along lunar cycles, whereas Oestara is the Spring Equinox, and thus along the solar cycle).

[Solaris]

Yeah, she's good like that.


Thank you guys. (Lame Duck and Spike) :) *Sometimes* I'm "good like that"... and sometimes I have my head up my ass. I usually manage to fall somewhere in between the two, IMO. :D

[Rabid Trekkie]

Thank you guys. (Lame Duck and Spike) :) *Sometimes* I'm "good like that"... and sometimes I have my head up my ass. I usually manage to fall somewhere in between the two, IMO. :D

And your modest too! Your the perfect woman.

[Solaris]

And your modest too! Your the perfect woman.


*falls over laughing*

Neewwww... not really. Just ask my long-suffering husband. ;)

[spazzy mcghee]

That's not true, just as it's not true that St. Patrick's Day has lost its meaning to the Irish because we Americans celebrate the hell out of it.

Honestly, the problem comes in, for Christians, when they start believing the notion that, because someone else celebrates the cultural and/or commercial aspects of a holiday they claim as their own (see footnote), the holiday has lost its meaning.

Bushwah. That's like an artist saying "you can't hang my painting in a nightclub, because a nightclub environment makes the picture lose all meaning."

Spazzy, so long as there are Christians out there who know and understand the meaning of their Holy Days, and celebrate/observe them as such, the day has NOT lost its meaning in the Christian context. Basically, modern Christians keep trying to claim some kind of "complete ownership" of these holidays, and completely ignore several things:

1. Pretty much any kind of holiday has taken on a cultural meaning/signficance that is only loosely related to, or is in fact completely divorced from, the meaning the day has to a particular religion. That's normal cultural development, and it happens in every culture. In latterday Pagan Rome, for example, most people took their holy days as a time to party, and only a part of the population observed said days in the strict religious context.

2. I can't think of a single Holy Day that is widespread across Christianity (not including the Catholic's "Saints Days") that wasn't adapted to, aligned with, borrowed from, or set by the calendar to match with, a Holy or Cultural Day from something that was not Christian. As a Pagan, if I wanted to mimic the way some Christians act about Holy Days, I could easily point to Christmas and say "You've stolen Yule! It's lost all meaning! You make no mention of the Goddess on that day!" Get it? ;)

The complaints of some Christians over the "secularization" of what they call a Christian Holiday is, in reality, as simple as a child in the sandbox saying "NO! YOU CANNOT MAKE BARBIE MARRY G.I. JOE! HE'S MY TOY, AND HE'S A SOLDIER, AND SOLDIERS DON'T DO TEA PARTIES!"

Those Christians who have concern over all that stuff are really, IMO, displaying both some ignorance and some selfishness---ignorance of where their holidays came from and of normal cultural growth, and selfishness in trying to impose *their* meaning for the day upon everyone within the culture.

I am dead dog positive that, if Jesus came walking down the street and you asked him, "Does it upset you that Christmas has lost all meaning?" he would smile gently and say, "So long as one person maintains in their heart the joy and reverence for Me coming here to give you My Father's Love, the meaning is still here. Go now and do likewise."

:)

My post was not meant for every person of every denomination. The original thread topic was declared christians not knowing an integral crux of their religion. Your reply, although mostly correct, unforturnately does not pertain to me.

I apologize if I came off as a fanatic. I do not force my religion on anyone. I have friends, and very close friends at that, of every religion, race, color, creed and so on.

Way to go for the Romans, the emperor became a christian and integrated christian ideals and doctrine to the current pagan rituals to ease the adoption by his people. Right or wrong, that's history. Why use that as an argument? Does that make my religion wrong?

[Rabid Trekkie]

My post was not meant for every person of every denomination. The original thread topic was declared christians not knowing an integral crux of their religion. Your reply, although mostly correct, unforturnately does not pertain to me.

I apologize if I came off as a fanatic. I do not force my religion on anyone. I have friends, and very close friends at that, of every religion, race, color, creed and so on.

Way to go for the Romans, the emperor became a christian and integrated christian ideals and doctrine to the current pagan rituals to ease the adoption by his people. Right or wrong, that's history. Why use that as an argument? Does that make my religion wrong?

I don't think you came off fanatical, just shocked. I mean in America you expect everyone to know about the Christian holidays whether they are one or not, and to find a christian who doesn't know is shocking. Sort of like on that one show where when asked how Pres. Lincoln died a lady honestly said he was killed in a car accident.

I don't think Solaris is trying to say that what Constantine did makes your religion wrong, just trying to point out that when Christians say "Your misusing my holiday!" that we should remember that it belonged to someone else first and there's no reason to really get upset. Everyone celebrates in their own way, and within their own beliefs.

[Solaris]

My post was not meant for every person of every denomination. The original thread topic was declared christians not knowing an integral crux of their religion. Your reply, although mostly correct, unforturnately does not pertain to me.

I apologize if I came off as a fanatic. I do not force my religion on anyone. I have friends, and very close friends at that, of every religion, race, color, creed and so on.

Way to go for the Romans, the emperor became a christian and integrated christian ideals and doctrine to the current pagan rituals to ease the adoption by his people. Right or wrong, that's history. Why use that as an argument? Does that make my religion wrong?

*raises eyebrows in puzzlement*

I think we're talking at cross purposes here, Spaz. You certainly *didn't* come across as a fanatic, and I apologize if I gave that impression.

I kinda moved on from the original topic (since I'd already said it didn't make sense for someone saying they're Christian to NOT know how Jesus fits into Easter... weird), and onto a related topic. Heh. I tend to do that.

No, I wasn't responding *exactly* to you... it's more that, what you first said reminded me of all the media arguments that came up this past Christmas (and to an extent, in prior years as well), when many of the televangelists and "ministers/bishops/etc. who are quoted in the media" were carrying on so much about stuff like "secularism stealing the day," the phrase "Happy Holidays" being an affront to Christianity, the brou-ha-ha over Bush putting "Season's Greetings" on his cards instead of "Merry Christmas"... all that stuff and more. Basically, those guys have moved the argument away from one Christian talking to others, to one Christian expecting our society to observe Christmas as the religious holiday, regardless of their own religion.

I remember one person (IIRC it was a Catholic Bishop) who was going on about the Bush card thing. The reporter asked him, "Well, if we ever have a Jewish President, would you expect him to put 'Merry Christmas' on his cards, rather than 'Season's Greetings'?" and the bishop replied, "Of course!"

:rolleyes:

THAT's the kind of stuff I was talking about. Your post just reminded me about those guys... and how they've become very prevalent in the media, over the last few years. Twenty years ago, if someone was talking about "the meaning of Christmas being lost in the Holiday Shuffle," they went on to say how many Christians were getting so wrapped up in the Santa/present bit, they were forgetting to pay attention to their religious observance of Jesus's birth. That didn't bother me at all, because it's one Christian chiding other Christians about something that's an expected observance within their religion.

What bothers me today is the guys in the media trying to claim that the *only* observance that *should* be made is the religious one...by *everyone*, Christian or not. They've certainly got a right to say such things... but I also have the right to dispute such things, by pointing out how their expectations are unfair to other religions, don't take the secular societal aspects into account as valid, and completely ignore the "gravy" they are getting from that secular societal version of the holiday... which kinda bugs me. They take for granted that they'll get Christmas Day off work, etc., and never bother to think that it's societal custom making the day into a secular celebration as well as a religious one that enables this in the first place.

In other words, if they got what they wanted, and everyone catered to Christmas as a Christian Holy Day and ONLY as a Christian Holy Day... they'd be screaming the rooftops down, once they realized that by obliterating the societal secular celebration, it also negated the right to have that day as a Federal Holiday, and they'd all have to work Christmas Day.

*whew*

Anyway, I wasn't getting on my soapbox about *you* or AT *you*---you just reminded me about those other guys, and I went off on that tangent and just assumed that everyone else would know where I was going. That was my bad. Sorry about that. :o

[Erebus]

Being Christian shouldn't be about holidays and prayers and stuff. It should be about being a good person, believing in God, and treating others the way you would want to be treated.

[Mike Smith]

And your modest too! Your the perfect woman.

Seconded. Solaris' posts are always a bright spot.

[Solaris]

I don't think you came off fanatical, just shocked. I mean in America you expect everyone to know about the Christian holidays whether they are one or not, and to find a christian who doesn't know is shocking. Sort of like on that one show where when asked how Pres. Lincoln died a lady honestly said he was killed in a car accident.

I don't think Solaris is trying to say that what Constantine did makes your religion wrong, just trying to point out that when Christians say "Your misusing my holiday!" that we should remember that it belonged to someone else first and there's no reason to really get upset. Everyone celebrates in their own way, and within their own beliefs.


Well, sort of. Actually, what I was referring to with the latter day PAGAN Romans was that by that point they too had added secularism and secular celebrations to what started out as Holy Days in their religion... so it's not like this is a new thing. Societies adding secular celebration to what might well be a solemn kind of celebration day (if it is solemn) has been happening for many centuries---us doing it isn't anything new. :) (And I was referring to the Romans *before* Constantine turned Christianity into the state religion... but after they'd been an Empire for a while... like in the days of Nero, and the guy who came after him---I'm brainfarting on his name. Anyway, by that point often the religious observances for a Holy Day were often accompanied by, or even overshadowed by, the secular celebrations.)

But what Trekkie said is true, too. The point in that is that the holiday which started out as Yule in some countries, and other things in others, got absorbed into Christianity and turned into Christmas, just as many holidays have. It sort of... adapted, in a way. Sure, there's still some of us out there who still celebrate Yule... but in my family, we also celebrate the secular Christmas, Santa and all. Besides that, I personally also enjoy the love and kindness that people show at that time---and much of it comes from Christians celebrating Jesus's birth, and trying to act in his spirit of things, so to speak. I am happy that Christians have Christmas, I am happy also in the similarities it shares with how I see Yule (returning of the light, etc), and I also enjoy the secular fun and sharing of the day, especially Santa with my 4 yr. old.

At any rate, I'd much rather see people, Christian, Pagan, or whatever, celebrating the midwinter season by showing some extra kindness and compassion for whoever is around them, whatever their religion, than hear the Falwell's, etc., on the tv trying to stir up hornets over whether someone says "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas" to their customers in a store, etc. Both are expressions of well-wishing... and I wish they'd just leave it at that, and go do some well-wishing themselves. *sigh*

[Noah Johnson]

Seconded. Solaris' posts are always a bright spot.
Bah! Nonsense! She's ill-mannered, a terrible writer, and has a ridiculous haircut. Nobody likes her. Later this evening I'm leading a mob with torches and pitchforks to her house. We're going to TP it.

[Solaris]

Bah! Nonsense! She's ill-mannered, a terrible writer, and has a ridiculous haircut. Nobody likes her. Later this evening I'm leading a mob with torches and pitchforks to her house. We're going to TP it.


Free toilet paper---YAY!!! :D ;)

[StoneGold]

The other True Spirit of Easter.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/6302799155.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Iangould]

They are so dum!

Everyone knows it is about candy!

Mark B.

Don't mock.

The Easter Bunny died for your sins.

[Iangould]

Fast forward to easter. The stone that covered the unguarded tomb of Jesus is rolled away and its empty. His followers, who claim that he is the son of God, are the only ones who see him alive and then, rather than continue his teachings he ascends into heaven. If someone tried that as proof divinity today who would believe them?

I always walk away from church with the feeling that I've been had.

The passage in one of the gospels abotu the first appearance of the risen Christ to his disciples is...interesting.

I can't remember which gospel it is but the disciples don't initially recognise him and then when they do he initially denies it.

If a couple of weird religious guys started telling me I was their dead friend returned to life I might just go along with it to pacify them until I could beat it.

[MacQuarrie]

The passage in one of the gospels abotu the first appearance of the risen Christ to his disciples is...interesting.

I can't remember which gospel it is but the disciples don't initially recognise him and then when they do he initially denies it.

If a couple of weird religious guys started telling me I was their dead friend returned to life I might just go along with it to pacify them until I could beat it.
That's not in any of the accepted Gospels of any mainstream christian denomination. There is not one single verse in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John that suggests Jesus ever denied his identity after the resurrection as you describe.

You might be thinking of the story of the two men on the road to Emmaus who find themselves travelling with an unidentifed stranger, who tells them all about the prophecies concerning the Messiah before finally revealing himself as the risen Jesus, but he never at any point denies being him. You'll find that in Luke 24:13-35. Or possibly the passage where Peter and some of the other disciples are fising and Jesus calls to them from the shore; they don't recognize him at first until he reveals to them who he is by working another miracle. You'll find that in John 21:1-7.

If you don't know what the Bible says, you should at least make an effort to look it up before telling other people what you think it says.

[MacQuarrie]

While I cannot reconcile the idea of calling yourself a christian with not knowing that Easter is about the ressurrection, I have to confess that Easter, which is supposed to be the most joyous and holy of christian holidays, always leaves me feeling somewhat hollow.

I can't shake the feeling that the whole ressurection was a big scam. Look at Christmas. When Jesus was born there was a star in the sky, the shepards came in from the field and three wisemen brought gifts. Oh, and angels announced the birth.

Fast forward to easter. The stone that covered the unguarded tomb of Jesus is rolled away and its empty. His followers, who claim that he is the son of God, are the only ones who see him alive and then, rather than continue his teachings he ascends into heaven. If someone tried that as proof divinity today who would believe them?

I always walk away from church with the feeling that I've been had.
How about this version?

The massive stone weighing several tons is found lying a distance away from the tomb, and there's no way that the disciples could have moved it. The sixteen armed guards who stood outside the tomb all night to prevent such a break-in have no explanation for how it was moved. If any one of them had fallen asleep on duty, Roman law required that all of them be executed, so it's unlikely that any of them actually fell asleep as the officials claimed.

Inside the tomb, the resin-coated strips of linen that covered the body are lying on the slab, still intact and holding the shape of the missing body.

A few angels are loitering around telling whoever shows up that Christ has risen; "do not look for the living among the dead", they say.

Many people have studied the various accounts of the empty tomb looking for how it was pulled off, including scientists, historians, experts on ancient manuscripts, professional magicians and escape artists. None have put forth a feasible theory for how it could have been done. Several of them became christians as a result of their attempts to disprove the Gospel accounts.

For a brief overview of the topic, I recommend Josh McDowell's "More than a Carpenter." I think it will adequately address your concerns.

[Iangould]

That's not in any of the accepted Gospels of any mainstream christian denomination. There is not one single verse in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John that suggests Jesus ever denied his identity after the resurrection as you describe.

You might be thinking of the story of the two men on the road to Emmaus who find themselves travelling with an unidentifed stranger, who tells them all about the prophecies concerning the Messiah before finally revealing himself as the risen Jesus, but he never at any point denies being him. You'll find that in Luke 24:13-35. Or possibly the passage where Peter and some of the other disciples are fising and Jesus calls to them from the shore; they don't recognize him at first until he reveals to them who he is by working another miracle. You'll find that in John 21:1-7.

If you don't know what the Bible says, you should at least make an effort to look it up before telling other people what you think it says.


It's the passage from Luke I was thinking of and while he never denies being Christ he never says he is Christ and he has to be persuaded to stay with them and break bread.

[MacQuarrie]

It's the passage from Luke I was thinking of and while he never denies being Christ he never says he is Christ and he has to be persuaded to stay with them and break bread.
How is being "persuaded to stay with them and break bread" in any way equivalent to him denying that he's the risen Christ?

The passage in Luke (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2024:13-35&version=31) is the exact opposite of what you said it was.

You said that the men asserted he was Jesus, he denied it, and then they insisted on it until he eventually admitted it, which you explained by saying "If a couple of weird religious guys started telling me I was their dead friend returned to life I might just go along with it to pacify them until I could beat it."

Luke says the men didn't recognize him at all (in fact "they were kept from recognizing him", according to the text), he taught them as they walked, when they arrived at their destination, he acted as if he were traveling further, but they invited him to come and eat with them, which he finally agreed to. It's not until after he prays over the food that "their eyes were opened and they recognized him" and then he vanished.

This is the point at which you're supposed to concede that your statement about the Bible passage was completely erroneous and your assertions about what it means are baseless. The scene you described simply does not exist.

[Matt Algren]

How is being "persuaded to stay with them and break bread" in any way equivalent to him denying that he's the risen Christ?

The passage in Luke (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2024:13-35&version=31) is the exact opposite of what you said it was.

You said that the men asserted he was Jesus, he denied it, and then they insisted on it until he eventually admitted it, which you explained by saying "If a couple of weird religious guys started telling me I was their dead friend returned to life I might just go along with it to pacify them until I could beat it."

Luke says the men didn't recognize him at all (in fact "they were kept from recognizing him", according to the text), he taught them as they walked, when they arrived at their destination, he acted as if he were traveling further, but they invited him to come and eat with them, which he finally agreed to. It's not until after he prays over the food that "their eyes were opened and they recognized him" and then he vanished.Pardon my addition, but just to further your point, in the very next verse Jesus reappeared while the two were telling the eleven about this and made it a point to prove that he wasn't a vision or a ghost or somesuch.

I figure the 'pretending to be going on' bit was kind of a test, to prove (to them) that they got it. If there's one thing God doesn't need, it's people who claim they understand but turn a stranger out in the cold.