Babe Ruth.........most OVERRATED of all time?

[spaz]

I wasn't born in that era and I never saw him play. What I can't stand is how they rant and raved about him when he never played with any(at least I think so) negroes in that era. I don't think he would have had the stats he had if blacks were allowed to play in that time. Any thoughts?

[Phrozen]

I wasn't born in that era and I never saw him play. What I can't stand is how they rant and raved about him when he never played with any(at least I think so) negroes in that era. I don't think he would have had the stats he had if blacks were allowed to play in that time. Any thoughts?

That is hard to say. Ruth was a great all around athelete. Remember, in the beginning of his career he was a all-star caliber pitcher.

[Hiromi]

Pitcher, catcher, outfielder, and then of course there's the fact that while still a pitcher he was hitting more home runs than any other major league team COMBINED...

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I wasn't born in that era and I never saw him play. What I can't stand is how they rant and raved about him when he never played with any(at least I think so) negroes in that era. I don't think he would have had the stats he had if blacks were allowed to play in that time. Any thoughts?


Its hard to really tell. Babe Ruth was a man who could go out and party all night and still show up and nail a HR. He may have looked pudgy but he was an athlete who would smash HR's. The biggest supplement Babe took was alcohol and smoked... ;)

[Toreador]

I wasn't born in that era and I never saw him play. What I can't stand is how they rant and raved about him when he never played with any(at least I think so) negroes in that era. I don't think he would have had the stats he had if blacks were allowed to play in that time. Any thoughts?

So what you're saying is that blacks are superior athletes to whites and that white athletes can only be great if the black athletes allow them? That's what you seem to imply.

And shouldn't you at least check to see if Babe played against/with any of the Negro Basball League before making such a statement.

[spaz]

that's what i mean. if he pitched to black people would he have had all those wins? would he have had all those singles, doubles, triples if black people were in the outfield or playing the bases? that's something to think about.

[Iangould]

"he was the first player to hit over 30, 40 and 50 home runs in one season. His record of 60 home runs in the 1927 season stood for 34 years until it was broken by Roger Maris with 61 home runs in 1961."

"# Second in career home runs (714)
# First in career slugging percentage (.690)
# Third in career runs scored (2174)
# Second in career runs batted in (2213)
# Third in career base on balls (2062)
# Set single season record with 60 home runs (now is fifth all-time)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_Ruth

You seem to assume that blacks are somehow innately superior to whites at spots - ever consider it might just be that sports is one of the few areas where blacks are able to compete on a level basis with whites?

Still it would have been great to see him play at his peak against Satchel Paige:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satchel_Paige

[Phrozen]

And shouldn't you at least check to see if Babe played against/with any of the Negro Basball League before making such a statement.

Actually, more then likely. Ruth went barnstorming a couple of seasons.

[spaz]

Iangould, I just think it would have been great to see Babe play on a field where there was no racial inequality and see how his stats would have been. Not saying that black people are superior in sports but at least the league would have been more competitive and not as watered down either.

[Error_2.0]

It's not so much a matter of race but skill in general. In the Babe's day those athletes had second jobs in addition to playing baseball, they weren't millionaires like they are today who played baseball all of the time to practice, little league, high school, college, minor leagues, then the pros. These guys were just trying to feed their families in between drafts to go to war. Also, do you think black athletes (and steroid users) like Barry Bonds or Sammy Sosa would have been able to hit over 60 home runs in a single season if they were playing in fields as big as the ones Babe was playing in? Eventually the team owners decided everyone loved dingers so much that they shortened the fields by about a hundred feet years after Babe retired. Baseball loves to count every little thing imaginable and save it as a statistic but it never takes the time to think about things such as this.
This baseball of today and the baseball of Babe's day are completely different, you wore cotton, you didn't wear a helmet, and if you didn't show respect you got a 75mph fastball to the head and the ump just said "You had it coming, asshole."

[Iangould]

Anyone who at the age of 41 can hit three home-runs in a professional baseball match is an extraordinary athlete.

[spaz]

okay i'm not a baseball expert but were there any hall of famer pitchers back in that era when Babe pitched? didn't pitching get better later on? more emphasis on rotation and rest?

[Gilda Dent]

Nah, Ruth isn't overrated. The fact of segregated leagues does taint that era as a whole, and it does mean that the competition was a little bit weaker than it otherwise would have been, not because blacks are better athletes, but because the talent pool was divided and Ruth didn't face and compete with some of the best talent of the time.

On the other side, the major leagues were much smaller then, creating a much denser talent pool relative to current times. To compare to modern times, imagine if the size of the major leagues were cut in half, with only the players in the upper half of the talent pool being good enough to play. That's the kind of talent density Ruth played against, and even in the absense of black representation, that makes a big difference in performance relative to one's era.

Ruth was the best of his era.

Gilda

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Ruth was so good he called his shot. I'd love to see a player try and do that feat.

I also think any man who can party all night and show up and still kick ass is someone I have respect for. The man was a hell of a guy. Its a shame he never got to live his dream and coach the Yankees as he was promised.

[spaz]

Best of his Era? No doubt! Cannot disagree. Best baseball player of all time? I think that's up to debate.

[Iangould]

14 posts from "most overrated player of all time" to "[arguably] the best player of all time".

[SUPERECWFAN1]

14 posts from "most overrated player of all time" to "[arguably] the best player of all time".


People love Da Babe damn it! :D

[StoneGold]

Now here's a question: would Ruth have been a better or worse player if he wasn't a fat drunk?

[Gilda Dent]

Babe Ruth.........most OVERRATED of all time?

Best of his Era? No doubt! Cannot disagree.

Does it make me a bad person that this has made me laugh more than anything that's happened this weekend?

Gilda

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Does it make me a bad person that this has made me laugh more than anything that's happened this weekend?

Gilda


Read the " Steriod thread " about Barry Bonds. Its funnier....or if ya like disturbed humor..I interview the Easter Bunny in one thread. ;)

[Trystenn]

I wasn't born in that era and I never saw him play. What I can't stand is how they rant and raved about him when he never played with any(at least I think so) negroes in that era. I don't think he would have had the stats he had if blacks were allowed to play in that time. Any thoughts?
..........................................
To be honest, if we switched "Blacks" and "Whites" around in this, it would be considered rascist, actually i do kinda see it as a bit rascist.

[GozertheGozarian]

okay i'm not a baseball expert but were there any hall of famer pitchers back in that era when Babe pitched? didn't pitching get better later on? more emphasis on rotation and rest?
Walter Johnson and Cy Young preceeded Ruth, and Carl Hubbel owned him in an all-star game. All three HoF pitchers better than anything in the last twenty years.

[BigJayStudd]

Walter Johnson and Cy Young preceeded Ruth, and Carl Hubbel owned him in an all-star game. All three HoF pitchers better than anything in the last twenty years.

Johnson and Young were better than anything in the last 20 years but not Hubbell. Roger Clemens is a better pitcher.

[GozertheGozarian]

Johnson and Young were better than anything in the last 20 years but not Hubbell. Roger Clemens is a better pitcher.
Not a chance. Third longest scoreless innings (46 1/3), longest winning streak (24 games), and struck out Ruth, Gehrig, Jimmie Fox, Al Simmons, and Joe Cronin, in order. Add on a 23 win/season average, Clemens has nothing.


http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/hubbell_carl.htm


edit for spelling

[pennywisdom]

Only in baseball, bowling, and table tennis could an overweight lush be considered the sports greatest athlete.

John Goodman had to gain weight to play Babe. Think about that for a second.

[GozertheGozarian]

Only in baseball, bowling, and table tennis could an overweight lush be considered the sports greatest athlete.

John Goodman had to gain weight to play Babe. Think about that for a second.
And being overweight lessens his stat how?

[BigJayStudd]

Not a chance. Third longest scoreless innings (46 1/3), longest winning streak (24 games), and struck out Ruth, Gehrig, Jimmie Fox, Al Simmons, and Joe Conin, in order. Add on a 23 win/season average, Clemons has nothing.

How to you figure Hubbell has a 23 win season average? He did that over a 5 year span only. He had 253 wins in 16 years.

-Clemens has more wins

-Clemens has more stikeouts

-Clemens has more shutouts

-Hubbell lead the league in ERA 3 times. Clemens has done it 8 times.

-The scoreless inning streak isn't that big a of a deal. Orel Hershieser has the record and I don't see anybody comparing him to the Rocket.

-The winning streak was over a two year period. We are comparing thier entire careers here. The All-Star game feat was nice but that was a ONE game feat. You can't judge a player by one game. Again, you have to look at thier careers. Clemens blows Hubbell out of the water.

[Chiasm]

Babe Ruth hit 60 home runs in a much shorter season than they play now and a slightly shorter season than when Maris hit 61.

Babe Ruth didn't cheat by taking steroids like McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds did.

Babe Ruth played in much larger parks where you had to hit the ball much further to get a homer.

And the Babe was an all star pitcher before becoming a hitter.


You can argue that the quality of the opposition wasn't as consistently good back then as it is now. But there can be no dispute that the Babe is the best of all time. McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds should all have asterik's next to the their names in the single season home run record book denoting that they cheated by using steroids. Maris should have a smaller asterik denoting he played in an eight game longer season than the Babe. The only home record that the Babe legitimately lost was the all time home run record which he lost fair and square to Hank Aaron but you also have to consider that Aaron played a lot longer than the Babe did.

And the notion that if blacks had been allowed to play the Babe wouldn't have done nearly as good is pretty laughable. The only player on the field who could influence the Babes home runs is the pitcher. You can have the best player in the world at every other position and the Babe will still be popping zingers. Black pitchers would have been like the white pitchers of the time - some good, some bad, and many just average. The Babe might have faced a handful of slightly better pitchers over the year but the effects would be marginal because he would also face some bad black pitchers as well and a whole lot of black pitchers who were not much different than the white pitcher they replaced.

[Naldo]

Size of field is really, in my mind the single most determining factor. If baseball fields today were the same size as in Babes day, he wouldn't be considered just the best of all time, but the God of baseball, no one else would come close.

Seriously, think of how many home runs you see pop right over the fence. In Babes day that would probably be a double or maybe triple. Now push the fence back 100 feet and see how many homers McGwire and Sosa & Bonds hit. Never mind the steroids.

[Punchy]

So what you're saying is that blacks are superior athletes to whites and that white athletes can only be great if the black athletes allow them? That's what you seem to imply.

And shouldn't you at least check to see if Babe played against/with any of the Negro Basball League before making such a statement.


Well let's see, out of the top home run hitters of all-time, five are black; Hank Aaron, Barry Bonds, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, Reggie Jackson and three are white; Babe, Mark McGuire, Harmon Kilibrew. The other two are latin; Sosa and Palmero.

To say that Babe's records are under suspician because he didn't play against black atheletes in NO WAY implies that black atheletes are superior (although in some sports I feel they are) and I wonder how you came to that conclusion. Since when does equal oppurtunity mean superior?

Baseball had a rule that disallowed blacks from playing, it is obvious that black atheletes can compete on the highest of levels in baseball. So I think it's fair to say Babe's numbers would've been a lot different had black atheletes been allowed to play.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Size of field is really, in my mind the single most determining factor. If baseball fields today were the same size as in Babes day, he wouldn't be considered just the best of all time, but the God of baseball, no one else would come close.

Seriously, think of how many home runs you see pop right over the fence. In Babes day that would probably be a double or maybe triple. Now push the fence back 100 feet and see how many homers McGwire and Sosa & Bonds hit. Never mind the steroids.


Can you imagine if Babe played today ? Jesus....the man would have at least 800 HR's. He would be smashing them and fans would be linin up to watch. ;)

[i_mmmchocolate]

Babe Ruth.........most OVERRATED of all time?

Probably not for his time. Ugliest player of all time? Possibly.

[spideyrules99]

[QUOTE=Punchy]Well let's see, out of the top home run hitters of all-time, five are black; Hank Aaron, Barry Bonds, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, Reggie Jackson and three are white; Babe, Mark McGuire, Harmon Kilibrew. The other two are latin; Sosa and Palmero.
QUOTE]


I will never give Bonds Sosa or mcguire props for cheating to get thier records. The fact is that Babe was fat outta shape and did it with out cheating. Would his stats have been diffearnt. Maybe. Not in the home run stat. He faced some good pitchers for his day and still belted them out. I really dont see how that would have changd. As stated above there were good, bad, and so so.

[literally exaggerated]

Not in the home run stat. He faced some good pitchers for his day and still belted them out. I really dont see how that would have changd. As stated above there were good, bad, and so so.

I don't think you understand the concept of a talent pool. The point isn't that blacks were better on average than whites, the point is that players compete to play in the league, so if there are more good players available because you're getting them from all segments of the population, then fewer mediocre and bad pitchers will be in the league, and overall pitching will improve.

So if the league had some good, some bad, and some so-so pitchers, and the negro leagues had some good, some bad, and some so-so pitchers, and you then combined the two, you would not simply have some good, some bad, and some so-so pitchers in the same proportion. You would have all of the good pitchers and a few more of the so-so ones from the Nego leagues, which would mean fewer bad pitchers would be playing, and there would be many more pitchers who could at least make the Babe work for a homer.

[spideyrules99]

I understood just fine. I just dont think that things would have changed in that big of a way.

[Dreadstar]

There's one factor that hasn't been brought into the equation with Ruth vis-a-vis the best black pitchers of the time. It's been argued that many of the best pitchers of the Negro League had fastballs that were far better than many if not most of the professional white pitchers.

The thing is, in the early days of baseball, the horsehide just wasn't uniformly as superior as the balls of the modern era. Balls were just not as "juiced," to use the vernacular.

So, who were the best pitchers to get the longball out of?

The hot fastball pitchers.

Now, I honestly believe that if Ruth had to face an influx of pitchers that would probably bench some of the lesser pitchers he saw in his time, he very likely would have had less homeruns. LESS though, does not preclude a hell of a LOT. Including the record. Plus none of this takes into account that aside form Ty Cobb, Ruth was also considered one of the best contact hitters of the day. Like Cobb and Pete Rose, Ruth had the skill to put the wood on the ball, even if he didn't get a pitch that he could power.

By the way, it is a good hypothetical question, at the core. But the hyperbole of "over-rated" is misplaced.

[spoon_jenkins]

I don't think you understand the concept of a talent pool. The point isn't that blacks were better on average than whites, the point is that players compete to play in the league, so if there are more good players available because you're getting them from all segments of the population, then fewer mediocre and bad pitchers will be in the league, and overall pitching will improve.

So if the league had some good, some bad, and some so-so pitchers, and the negro leagues had some good, some bad, and some so-so pitchers, and you then combined the two, you would not simply have some good, some bad, and some so-so pitchers in the same proportion. You would have all of the good pitchers and a few more of the so-so ones from the Nego leagues, which would mean fewer bad pitchers would be playing, and there would be many more pitchers who could at least make the Babe work for a homer.
Agreed. I don't think the original point was even remotely racist. It's essentially a variation on the idea that expansion waters down talented in MLB (or other pro sports leagues). So if baseball had been integrated, instead of having two leagues each with the great and the mediocre players from that race, there could have been one league with the combined great players from MLB and the Negro Leagues. So the level of competition would have been so much higher.

Having said that, I don't agree with the idea that Ruth is overrated. It's hard to compare players across different eras, but he was so far ahead of his predecessors in terms of power.

And body type shouldn't matter if an athlete performs on the field. Otherwise, body builders should be judge on athletic skills. And models should then be given all sorts of tests on non-looking-pretty skills. I don't see any reason for that.

[DonC]

okay i'm not a baseball expert


Then why have you started two different threads about it?


Just curious.

[Toreador]

But his statement was implying that Babe was only great because he only played against other white people (that he knows of) and that his career wouldn't so good if he played against black players. Which seems like a slight racial slur that black athletes are physically superior to whites when they're actually pretty equal to each other.
Others have already posted just how great Babe's career actually was.

[spaz]

Actually Toreador, what I said was I don't think his stats would have been as good as they were if there was equality in the league at the time. You can think I'm racist because I think you made up your mind on that.

I think Spoon Jenkins and Literally Exaggerated understood what I was trying to get across. If you had more talented players in the league at the time would Babe have gotten all the kudos he has? Would he have scored or gotten all those hits, pitching wins against more talented players?

DonC, I just like to watch sports in general and I was bored. That's all.

[Iangould]

Actually Toreador, what I said was I don't think his stats would have been as good as they were if there was equality in the league at the time. You can think I'm racist because I think you made up your mind on that.

I think Spoon Jenkins and Literally Exaggerated understood what I was trying to get across. If you had more talented players in the league at the time would Babe have gotten all the kudos he has? Would he have scored or gotten all those hits, pitching wins against more talented players?

DonC, I just like to watch sports in general and I was bored. That's all.

Look at it this way, Ruth's home run record was more than double that of his closest contemporary rival, Lou Gehrig (60 to 25 I think). If Ruth and Gehrig had faced Satchel Paige and the other black pitchers, I suspect the margin would be similar butthe actual numbers might be something like 50:20.

[Punchy]

But his statement was implying that Babe was only great because he only played against other white people (that he knows of) and that his career wouldn't so good if he played against black players. Which seems like a slight racial slur that black athletes are physically superior to whites when they're actually pretty equal to each other.
Others have already posted just how great Babe's career actually was.
What are you talking about?

You say yourself that black and white atheletes are 'pretty equal.'

So a league full of the great white players and average white players would be BETTER and MORE COMPETETIVE it were filled with great white players and great black players. There would be less average players on the field as has been brough up earlier.

You are the only one that seems to think anyone is implying racial superiority.

Look at it this way, Ruth's home run record was more than double that of his closest contemporary rival, Lou Gehrig (60 to 25 I think). If Ruth and Gehrig had faced Satchel Paige and the other black pitchers, I suspect the margin would be similar butthe actual numbers might be something like 50:20.
Baseball is a game of numbers. Even the discrepency that you are estimating is a 'big deal.'

[Dennis K]

There was a great article in SportsWeekly a couple of weeks ago where they compared and contrasted Ruth & Bonds. Well worth reading.

[BigJayStudd]

About him batting against Satchel Paige....the point is moot. Paige didn't start to become a dominating pitcher till the early 30's. Ruth had already broken every concievable home run record.

[Jerry W. Loper]

I wasn't born in that era and I never saw him play. What I can't stand is how they rant and raved about him when he never played with any(at least I think so) negroes in that era. I don't think he would have had the stats he had if blacks were allowed to play in that time. Any thoughts?

Actually, I find it impressive that Ruth hit 714 home runs (60 in one season) while being an overweight, drunk, skirt-chasing butterball instead of a muscular freak puffed up on steroids. :D