A Superboy theory....(all kinds of spoilers ahead)

[Tequilamokinbrd]

So I was thinking about how in IC, Alex said that Supermen and Luthors will always be at odds, no matter what earth they're on.



And I'm thinking that's why Superboy(Conner Kent) died.




Think about it, Alex was mixing earths just fine, the heroes weren't really slowing him down much, and then he tried to mix Earth-2 Superman with Earth-3 Lex Luthor and what happens? All of a sudden one of the heroes blows off his finger and stops him.



Kal-L at one point(I believe in the Superman:This is your life 3 parter) said that he felt that Kal-El's death was the point where everything started to go downhill, but maybe it just seemed that way.

Maybe the creation of Superboy was the point where it all went wrong, and it just seemed like it was Superman's death because obviously Conner's creation happened very close timeline-wise to Supes's death.


"But why would Superboy be the cause of any problems?"



Because he is a combination of Superman and Lex Luthor, and like Alex stated, Supermen and Luthors will ALWAYS be at odds, so perhaps combining the two made something in the universe unstable?

I'm thinking maybe his existance was what was throwing everything out of whack in the first place, and if that's the case, then when he sacrificed himself to destroy the tower, he didn't save the earth because he destroyed the tower, he saved it because he destroyed himself.


And maybe that's why in the "Titans Tommorow" storyline where the Teen Titans see their future selves, the world is so bleak and dark and everything seems wrong, because Conner is still alive tainting everything.



Now, in the latest issue of Teen Titans, Robin is shown at the end attempting to clone Superboy in secret. When I saw this scene, I thought to myself, "Why wouldn't he ask someone for help with this?" With all of the science whizzes he knows(including his own mentor Batman) he isn't working with any of them on this?


Then it hit me, maybe he's working alone because in IC #7 it will be revealed that mixing Superman and Luthor may not have been the best idea, and no one WANTS to help him.




What I'm thinking might happen is that eventually he'll try to clone Superboy using Superman and Batman's DNA rather than supes and luthor, but will make sure that he's still essentially the Connor we all know and love by enlisting Raven's help to find Superboy's original soul.


"But Tequila, wouldn't that soul have the Superman/Luthor mixing taint that you just brought up?"


Perhaps, and perhaps not. In the Teen Titans issue where Raven helps Superboy find his soul, she says and I quote, "No one gave this to you, Conner. No scientist or DONOR" Meaning that the soul had no connection to Lex or Supes and was totally unique because Connor made it.



Anyway, if Robin ended up using Batman's DNA instead of Luthor's, it would give Superboy a connection to Batman in a way similar to the way Dick Grayson was given a connection to Superman when he took on the originally Kryptonian codename Nightwing upon Superman's suggestion after he and Bruce originally fell out.






Yeah yeah I know, it's totally nuts, but anyone have any thoughts?

[stealthwise]

Eh, works for me. :)

Seriously, it makes more sense than a lot of the crazy crap that DC's been churning out since the early 90s.

[Lord Ichabod]

It's totally nuts, but it makes more sense to me than any other reasons I've heard. I hate to think my second favourite titan is responsible for all this but it makes sense in that luthors and kents just don't go well together. a bat/supes clone would be very interesting.

[Altraferne]

Sounds plausible to me, but rather too intelligent and a fair bit metatextual for them to actually use.

I do hope they bring Conner back in a dignified manner though, I was really starting to like him.

[NotSuper]

I have the feeling that Robin is going to end up creating some kind of Bizarro-Superboy. :)

[TheOnlyXTremeFan]

I actually like the idea of Robin bringing Conner back to life with Superman/Batman DNA.

I was starting to like Conner Kent.

[NotSuper]

I actually like the idea of Robin bringing Conner back to life with Superman/Batman DNA.

I was starting to like Conner Kent.
But it won't be Kon. He's dead. The clone would just have his DNA-- it wouldn't have his soul.

[UniqueFrequency]

But it won't be Kon. He's dead. The clone would just have his DNA-- it wouldn't have his soul.

yeah that's what i posted somewhere (not sure if it's this thread or not)

like even if Tim brought back a "Superboy", his memories and everything wouldn't be there

however i think someone did mention something about using Raven to get his soul back...

[forthepeople]

Sounds great I love the theory. I think you should write for DC in fact.

[AceOfSpades]

yeah that's what i posted somewhere (not sure if it's this thread or not)

like even if Tim brought back a "Superboy", his memories and everything wouldn't be there

however i think someone did mention something about using Raven to get his soul back... :D
'cept Raven is MIA as of this point. This sounds like another story arc relating to demons or hell or something to get his soul back! ONWARD WRITERS!! TO ARMS!

I actually really like Superboy and if he is brought back it needs to be done well , not some half-assed "He's baaaacckkk!" Thing that remains a mystery.

[Tequilamokinbrd]

Sounds plausible to me, but rather too intelligent and a fair bit metatextual for them to actually use.



Perhaps, but I just had to say it outloud so to speak because it just seemed odd to me that they made a big deal about the fact that Luthors and Supermen are always at odds even though there's a combination of sorts of the two that was mostly a success, then they go ahead and kill that success and earth becomes one stable place again(yes I know destroying the tower technically did that, but it's a heck of a coincedence, almost as big of one imho as that 616 thing).

[Kalyx triaD]

What Alex shoul've said is it doen't pay to where an S on your chest, as everyone who has met some terrible end.

[Buried Alien]

Cloning a dead friend doesn't seem like something Tim Drake would do. Over the years, he's been the one who's talked *Batman* out of the latter's crazier ideas.

Tim's supposed to be the sensible member of the Batfamily.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Joe Acro]

Cloning a dead friend doesn't seem like something Tim Drake would do. Over the years, he's been the one who's talked *Batman* out of the latter's crazier ideas.

Tim's supposed to be the sensible member of the Batfamily.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
You must understand, Robin needs a friend. Wonder Girl is mad at him for leaving for a year. Cyborg seems a little wary of Robin's team decision. He's lost his best friend, girlfriend, and parents. Batman expects a lot out of him, and is himself a generally private person. So, you see, Tim just needs some companionship. I think this is only reason he's creating a new Connor, even though a part of him probably realizes that it won't be the same person.

[TheOnlyXTremeFan]

This theory is starting to remind me of the Vision in Young Avengers. It's like we get the dude back from the dead...but not exactly.

[UniqueFrequency]

:D
'cept Raven is MIA as of this point. This sounds like another story arc relating to demons or hell or something to get his soul back! ONWARD WRITERS!! TO ARMS!

I actually really like Superboy and if he is brought back it needs to be done well , not some half-assed "He's baaaacckkk!" Thing that remains a mystery.

yeah i hope they do it better than Return of Donna Troy. i didn't quite enjoy that.

i'm sure Raven will resurface sooner or later as well..

[Effect]

This idea seems pretty solid and makes sense when it comes to the DCU and isn't that far out. As for Tim not doing this, it's said that Batman comments how depressed Tim was over losing his best friend or something similar to that. While the old Tim might not have done this there is no telling what this new Tim would do now that he might be pushed to the limit. On top of losing of Conner, being framed for murder, etc he just might do something like this just to bring back parts of his life.

[lawman]

I think this is ridiculous.

Lex Luthor (the canonical one since MOS) is a bad guy because he chose to be, based on the circumstances that shaped him. It was ordinary human motivations, not "fate" or anything in his genes (which is one of the things I found outrageously stupid about GJ's handling of Conner in Titans -- since when is "evil" genetic?).

Alex Luthor is a different individual. It's absurd enough to swallow a concept like Earth-3 in the first place (good is evil, and vice-versa!), but the clevernes of the conceit and a certain nostalgia make it acceptable... but to pile absurdity on absurdity by suggesting that just because he's a Luthor, Alex is predestined to be bad and to oppose anyone wearing an S -- and moreover, that to "combine" the two somehow screws with the very balance of the cosmos -- stretches suspension of disbelief past the breaking point, and all for the sake of nothing more than giving the writer an excuse not to bother coming up with realistic characterization.

IMHO, of course.

[stealthwise]

Lex Luthor (the canonical one since MOS) is a bad guy because he chose to be, based on the circumstances that shaped him. It was ordinary human motivations, not "fate" or anything in his genes (which is one of the things I found outrageously stupid about GJ's handling of Conner in Titans -- since when is "evil" genetic?).


My understanding is that since Conner was grown at an accelerated rate in a tank, being fed information like MTV, schooling, etc, that it didn't take much for Luthor to program key words into his brain in order to control Conner and make him act "evil."

[Scarlet-Spider]

That's a good idea, even if it is crazy, better than what DC have done lately. I never read a DC comic until Identity Crisis since the Zero Hour days, but I always knew what was going on from boards and Wiz Mag. I doubt they did the whole "Connor has a Soul" thing for him to die.

[NotSuper]

I still think that Tim wanting to clone his dead best-friend is creepy and morbid. A clone of Conner wouldn't be Conner any more than a clone of Superman would be Superman. Just look how different Conner was from Superman, despite sharing some of his DNA.

I believe Tim will end up creating a monster.

[Joe Acro]

You try telling that to the people in Marvel who seem to think that by cloning Apocalypse, he can still have his memories and the same attitude.

[NotSuper]

You try telling that to the people in Marvel who seem to think that by cloning Apocalypse, he can still have his memories and the same attitude.
Didn't Marvel learn its lesson regarding clones a while ago?

[Scarlet-Spider]

Didn't Marvel learn its lesson regarding clones a while ago?

One would think so, but I thought the name was cool :cool:

I agree that Tim is gonna make some type of monster with what he is trying to do. Here's a theory, if Green Arrow can com back from the dead then The Spectre will bring back Connor, but then again the Spectre was Hal Jordan then.....nevermind. I was really beginning to like Connor and I hope they find a way to bring him back. But lose the T-Shirt and jeans theing, I liked it at first, but it looked odd after a while. Go back to the suit from the 90's, just without the jacket, horrid haircut and glases. Doesn't need a cape but something.

[Tequilamokinbrd]

So I was checking out newsarama the other day and I see this paragraph in their best shots review of IC #6....


"As for the real climax of the issue, the battle at the tower had several fine moments. Black Adam putting Psycho-Pirate DOWN was a great bit, completely in character (and let’s face it , the emotion-manipulating would-be rapist had it coming). And Superboy’s death fulfills a nice arc of interior logic; the previous Crisis concluded with the ostensible sacrifice of a Superboy, [B]and played to several clearly established themes (such as the tacit acknowledgement that mixing a Luthor and a Superman in any capacity always leads to destruction)."




I guess I'm not the only one that saw Superboy's death as a potential representation of this theme. Granted I think I went a little farther with it, but I least I feel a little less crazy.

[lucifernomi]

Alex Luthor is a different individual. It's absurd enough to swallow a concept like Earth-3 in the first place (good is evil, and vice-versa!), but the clevernes of the conceit and a certain nostalgia make it acceptable... but to pile absurdity on absurdity by suggesting that just because he's a Luthor, Alex is predestined to be bad and to oppose anyone wearing an S -- and moreover, that to "combine" the two somehow screws with the very balance of the cosmos -- stretches suspension of disbelief past the breaking point, and all for the sake of nothing more than giving the writer an excuse not to bother coming up with realistic characterization.

IMHO, of course.

You realize that this entire interpretation is based on eisegesis from your own personal perspective on the way the universe works? If you dont try to interject your own feelings about the nature of predestination into the text, then it is at least one of many very plausible lines of reasoning. And who is to say that the DCU does, or even should, abide by your contention?

[NeonZ]

Alex Luthor is a different individual. It's absurd enough to swallow a concept like Earth-3 in the first place (good is evil, and vice-versa!), but the clevernes of the conceit and a certain nostalgia make it acceptable...

Earth-3 wasn't completely like that, that's more like the Post-Crisis Anti-matter Earth.

In fact, Earth-3 was more based on the concept of "backwards history" (Christopher Columbus discovered Europe; Britain won its freedom from the United States, etc), though that one has its own goofyness...

The only Super powered villains were the members of the Crime Syndicate of America, who ended up on jail at the end of most of their stories, and the only super hero, who only appeared after the villains, was Alexander Luthor. Also, not every good person had an evil counterpart. Earth-3 Lois wasn't evil.


You realize that this entire interpretation is based on eisegesis from your own personal perspective on the way the universe works?

It doesn't help that Alex. Jr seems to believe in that too, when he talks about how Luthor and a Superman are always in conflict.

[PretenderNX01]

How about Superboy Prime just retcon punch away Infinite Crisis from happening? I'd be happy with that.

Personally I'm bitter enough, if DC doesn't bring back Conner/Kon-El in his entirety then I hope they lose all rights to Superboy to the Segil/Shuster families and pay huge sums of money from Smallville and the new Legion cartoon.

In addition to back money from all Superboys since the silver age, including Superboy Prime and Secret Identity and every appearance of Superboy's memorial statue. As well as money for the Smallville scenes in Superman: the Movie and the flashbacks in Superman Returns. :evilangry

[luxshine]

How about Superboy Prime just retcon punch away Infinite Crisis from happening? I'd be happy with that.

Personally I'm bitter enough, if DC doesn't bring back Conner/Kon-El in his entirety then I hope they lose all rights to Superboy to the Segil/Shuster families and pay huge sums of money from Smallville and the new Legion cartoon.

In addition to back money from all Superboys since the silver age, including Superboy Prime and Secret Identity and every appearance of Superboy's memorial statue. As well as money for the Smallville scenes in Superman: the Movie and the flashbacks in Superman Returns. :evilangry

CAn I join you there? Kon made me read DC again. Killing him was the last straw for me. They have to get him back, damn it. He wasn't 'just a clone'!

[Kaos]

HOW'D THEY GO AN DO IT??? CONNER WAS MY NIGGA!!! ARRRGGGHHH...but the jean an shirt thing was played..his second costume was dope...shoulda stuck wid it..ARRRRGGGHHHHHH..bring him back dammit