View Full Version : Will taking the government's side be too damaging to some characters?
Sharcque
04-08-2006, 02:21 AM
Been thinking about the books of guys like Iron Man, guys that take the side of the government in this Civil War. Pretty much everyone of us consider those against registration to be "the good guys" in this dilemna. This may sound dumb, but Iron Man taking the side of the government really makes me not want to read about him in his own book. I'll always think of him as the governement suck up.
What do you guys think?
dingo
04-08-2006, 02:31 AM
Aside from the implication made by Iron-man in Illuminati that you MUST work for Sheild once you register, I agree with that side.
So...
If you want to fight crime, you register, you get trained, you get paid and you are accountable.
If you want to fight crime without getting registered, you are considered a criminal vigilante.
All this sounds reasonable to me.
You must register if you have powers
You must work for Sheild.
These don't sound reasonable.
So how I feel will depend on how these two points are handled.
I agree with dingo. Being a superhuman shouldn't force you into registration or service for shield.
But you should need a license to go out and fight crime with fire-balls shooting from your toes. But not neccessarily for SHIELD. More like bounty hunter or gun licenses.
The Fury
04-08-2006, 05:51 AM
That is one side of things I'm confused on. Orginally I thought it was a fact that if you fought crime as a vigilante then you are required to register to carry on. You will then fight for SHIELD and be paid etc. This all sounds fair enough.
But what confused me is when i read Illuminati again, Tony said, any 'mutant with powers'...making me think that the government is going to make anyone who has powers (and is good no doubt) register. Whether or not you want to fight crime over the world in dangerous situations where supervillians are trying to kill you. that does not sound fair.
If a character were to side with the government then I think it is very noble of them. They know what they want and if it means continueing to fight crime,just on a larger scale then good too them.
Zero Hunter
04-08-2006, 01:51 PM
Only problem is how long before the government starts abusing it power over all those that registar? You know how things work. Soon the whole thing is a bloated mess with corruption creeping in. You have people being forced to do what they are told by SHIEILD whether they use there powers or not. It would not be really hard for SHIELD to blackmail someone into working for them by just saying they were caught using there powers. They then have no choice but to be one of SHIELD goons.
Sooner or latter the whole thing will fall apart just like every other government controlled orginazation that trys to control super beings. All you have to do is look at history to know that. And when things do go bad those that sided with the government are going to be considered sellouts and yes men and are not going to be welcomed back very easy.
Sharcque
04-08-2006, 03:35 PM
And what about "bad guys" that register who will take it as a liscense to kill?
And saying that the side that's registering is noble is one thing, but when they start trying to physically force the other side to register, that's going to far.
agrich
04-08-2006, 03:41 PM
In Illuminati Iron Man made it sound like being proactive in siding with the government from Day 1 might result in a watered-down bill which was better than what would happen if they fought it from the get-go. So rather than AGREEING with the government, it seemed more like he felt that siding with them would make things better for everyone in the long run.
So while I'm not sure I'll be able to agree with the government, there's a difference with siding with them because you think they're enforcing a noble and just cause, and siding with them because you think it will go worse for the heroes if you don't. Iron Man could be merely putting aside his reservations about the bill in order to work with the system in the name of making it better.
In any case, I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt until I see the actual series.
Sharcque
04-08-2006, 10:10 PM
Newsarama Poll (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=66109)
this is what I was talking about.....right now there are 73% of us that are anti registration. If 73% of us decide that we no longer view Iron Man as a hero because of his Civil War decisions and drop his book, that would hurt. I'm talking worst case here, but even if 25% drop the book.....
Aside from the implication made by Iron-man in Illuminati that you MUST work for Sheild once you register, I agree with that side.
So...
If you want to fight crime, you register, you get trained, you get paid and you are accountable.
If you want to fight crime without getting registered, you are considered a criminal vigilante.
All this sounds reasonable to me.
You must register if you have powers
You must work for Sheild.
These don't sound reasonable.
So how I feel will depend on how these two points are handled.
It's reasonable until the goverment starts forming units to heroes to start chasing after other heroes. They don't care enough about super villians to do this, but they'll go to these lengths to go after unregistered heroes? It just seems like a lot of unecessary time and effort focusing on what should be by FAR the lesser of 2 evils.
Newsarama Poll (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=66109)
this is what I was talking about.....right now there are 73% of us that are anti registration. If 73% of us decide that we no longer view Iron Man as a hero because of his Civil War decisions and drop his book, that would hurt. I'm talking worst case here, but even if 25% drop the book.....
Disagreeing with Iron Man doesn't necessarily mean people will stop buying his book.
Most people probably don't agree with Punishers methods. As long as you understand it and are given a reason to believe the character genuinely thinks he's doing the right thing, even if you disagree with it, I think he'll be fine.
dingo
04-08-2006, 10:52 PM
It's reasonable until the goverment starts forming units to heroes to start chasing after other heroes. They don't care enough about super villians to do this, but they'll go to these lengths to go after unregistered heroes? It just seems like a lot of unecessary time and effort focusing on what should be by FAR the lesser of 2 evils.
That is basically covered under "You must work for Sheild" which you will note I have listed under unreasonable.
That is basically covered under "You must work for Sheild" which you will note I have listed under unreasonable.
Working for SHIELD isn't exactly saying the same thing as the government sending people after unregistered heroes. It's 2 different criticisms of the pro-registration side.
One is basically drafting the heroes.
The other is more about spending time and resources (be it registered heroes or ordinary SHIELD agents) going after unregistered heroes when there are more important threats out there.
Dizzy D
04-09-2006, 05:29 AM
And what about "bad guys" that register who will take it as a liscense to kill?
A big part of registring is that the heroes will now be accountable for their actions, so I don't think it's going to go this way.
dingo
04-09-2006, 06:07 AM
Working for SHIELD isn't exactly saying the same thing as the government sending people after unregistered heroes. It's 2 different criticisms of the pro-registration side.
One is basically drafting the heroes.
The other is more about spending time and resources (be it registered heroes or ordinary SHIELD agents) going after unregistered heroes when there are more important threats out there.
No, it is not exactly the same but it is related. The requirement to work for sheild implies that they may be made to do things they don't want to do, including things that are not the best use of their time.
A big part of registring is that the heroes will now be accountable for their actions, so I don't think it's going to go this way.
That brings up the issue of someone like the Punisher though. He's already a criminal and a murderer. Does he qualify as a badguy or will the government basically give him a liscence to kill as long as he's doing their bidding?
dingo
04-09-2006, 08:35 AM
That brings up the issue of someone like the Punisher though. He's already a criminal and a murderer. Does he qualify as a badguy or will the government basically give him a liscence to kill as long as he's doing their bidding?
Mass murderers are always going to qualify as a bas guy, unless they are a head of state.
Sharcque
04-09-2006, 01:06 PM
A big part of registring is that the heroes will now be accountable for their actions, so I don't think it's going to go this way.
Freedom Force, anyone?
Zombienorthstar
04-09-2006, 01:09 PM
Mass murderers are always going to qualify as a bas guy, unless they are a head of state.
Heres where we see the corruption of SHIELD: will they keep a murderer around just because hes useful?
Theyve done it before.
Mass murderers are always going to qualify as a bas guy, unless they are a head of state.
I agree mass murders SHOULD always qualify as bad guys... but I'm not sure Punisher is always seen that way.
IamtheRock3
04-12-2006, 06:25 PM
I undestand the bill
Depens if they send register heroes after unregister ones. This bring up a promblem with a lot of Goverment Vs heroes. It make you think if the goverment had all this RESOURCES to take down top tier heros..why dont they i dont know used said resources on villans first
Same promblem I had with Omac
my shocks wasnt that Batman was spying on his friend with it..it that Joker still escape every week and batman busty using the Satalalite on the blue Beetle
Haunt
04-12-2006, 06:42 PM
Heres where we see the corruption of SHIELD: will they keep a murderer around just because hes useful?
Theyve done it before.
yep. Scourge would qualify.
I undestand the bill
Depens if they send register heroes after unregister ones. This bring up a promblem with a lot of Goverment Vs heroes. It make you think if the goverment had all this RESOURCES to take down top tier heros..why dont they i dont know used said resources on villans first
Same promblem I had with Omac
my shocks wasnt that Batman was spying on his friend with it..it that Joker still escape every week and batman busty using the Satalalite on the blue Beetle
I think in NA they're showing that SHIELD does have the resources to go after villians. A lot of those criminals in the raft apparently were put there through illegal means by the corrupt SHIELD.
Linguini
04-12-2006, 08:20 PM
What confused and surprised me is that iron man is on the governments side for civil war and therefore means that spider-man is with him. But spider-man is one of the ones that wants to keep his identity secret. Isn't that strange?
Also what I thought was strange is that Captain America is against the Registration Act, wouldn't you have thought it to be the other way around?
Haunt
04-12-2006, 08:50 PM
What confused and surprised me is that iron man is on the governments side for civil war and therefore means that spider-man is with him. But spider-man is one of the ones that wants to keep his identity secret. Isn't that strange?
Also what I thought was strange is that Captain America is against the Registration Act, wouldn't you have thought it to be the other way around?
well you have to consider that Stark is very much a pragmatist and Captain America is very much an idealist. all Cap is going to see is that the government is trying to give itself more power than the people. Cap represents the people. and Tony has more than just his identity to work about. let's say he decides to be anti-registration and the government comes after him. what happens to his corporation and his employees? how's he going to argue against the accountability issue when his own inventions have been responsible for the taking of innocent life. Tony's a pragmatist. he's going to take the safe route and go with the government, until another option presents itself. and he was the Secretary of Defense at one point; don't forget it. he also hasn't been screwed like Cap has been by the government and SHIELD.
Zero Hunter
04-13-2006, 01:30 PM
I agree mass murders SHOULD always qualify as bad guys... but I'm not sure Punisher is always seen that way.
When you have a body count well into the 200's you are a mass murder. No ifs about it. Certain government groups consider him and asset though since he can do what they can't, but make no mistake he is a multiple mass murderer if ever there was one.
When you have a body count well into the 200's you are a mass murder. No ifs about it. Certain government groups consider him and asset though since he can do what they can't, but make no mistake he is a multiple mass murderer if ever there was one.
I don't disagree that he's a mass murderer... what I am disagreeing with is the perception that he's always seen as a badguy.
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