Where are all the Captain America buyers???

[The Shadow]

I started this thread at Newsarama after reading a thread there on Captain America. I thought I'd also ask the people of CBR that don't go to Newsarama.

After reading all the "I've never read Cap before" comments In This Thread HERE (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=65791) I'm wondering why the book isn't selling better!!!

The book is selling comparable numbers to when Morales was on it... did a TON of people like Mister drop the book when Brubaker took over only to have a similar number of people try it, again, because of Brubaker??

I've read Cap since 1985 and IMO this is the best he's been since Waid's first run... but the book is still only selling in the high 30,000 to low 40,000 range.

I always collect Cap regardless of who's doing it!

[estee]

I jumped onboard at the third issue of the Brubaker run. Haven't looked back since. It is stellar.

[Tony Starkz]

I started picking this up with #11.Not that late,but then again,Cap has one of the best and most thorough recap pages at Marvel.

[dingo]

I sometimes pick up Cap when he is in the dollar bins.
I don't think I have ever found him compelling enough to add to my pull list. In spite of being a man out of his time, Cap has always struck me as a D.C. character, i.e. a perfect boyscout. This always puts me off reading him religously

[Sleeper]

I only read the Captain America when Falcon was in it. That was just before Brubaker took over the main.

[Tony Starkz]

My interest in Cap sparked when I got to reading Ultimates.

[Dial Tone]

I've always been a Cap fan. This is the best he's ever been. I think Waid's run was a bit over-rated.

[Gildarco]

I started reading Cap (and am reading Daredevil now) because of Brubaker coming on board.

I hadn't ready any Captain America for about 10 years, and Bru brought me back to it.

[Economist]

I buy it, but it isn't on my pull list anymore. I haven't liked the fact that Bucky is back, but I haven't quit yet either.

I became a Cap fan when Waid was writing, but after ICE I quit. Came back for Bru.

[Saotome]

I had some volume 1 but what really got me loving Cap was Volume 3. Seeing him wreak a Scrull, then a Super Kree to then *batting* around the Rhino was phenominal. Before those putting Lady Deathstrike in her place. Plus the stories with the Redscull/Korvac were very enjoyable.

[Red State Cap]

I voted "other."
Purely by coincidence (had been out of comics long-term) I started buying Captain America when Mr. Brubaker took over the title. Great stuff, I thought.
Unfortunately, Mr. Brubaker decided to resurrect Bucky. Therefore I dropped the title and will not purchase it again until the story is expunged. However, I'm just one fan and I don't extrapolate my reason to explain why the book isn't selling better. Given the (at least on the internet boards) very positive buzz, I would have expected the sales figures to be higher.
My personal opinion, and this has nothing to do with Mr. Brubaker or even the decision to resurrect Bucky, is that Marvel is unwilling to target the book at its natural audience, so the book's sales are stagnant and will remain stagnant.

RSC

[Red State Cap]

I voted "other."
Purely by coincidence (had been out of comics long-term) I started buying Captain America when Mr. Brubaker took over the title. Great stuff, I thought.
Unfortunately, Mr. Brubaker decided to resurrect Bucky. Therefore I dropped the title and will not purchase it again until the story is expunged. However, I'm just one fan and I don't extrapolate my reason to explain why the book isn't selling better. Given the (at least on the internet boards) very positive buzz, I would have expected the sales figures to be higher.
My personal opinion, and this has nothing to do with Mr. Brubaker or even the decision to resurrect Bucky, is that Marvel is unwilling to target the book at its natural audience, so the book's sales are stagnant and will remain stagnant.

RSC

[dingo]

RedStateCap...what is the books natural audience in your opinion?

[Babylon23]

I've always been a big Cap fan. I began reading during the classic Stern/Byrne days, and stayed through the excellent Dematteis/Zeck run, and a big chunk of the Gruenwald era. I also went backed and picked up the Englehart and Kirby issues.

I lost interest in the book around the late 300's, and dropped it, but returned for Waid/Garney. Stayed for Waid/Kubert and Jurgens, and picked u the first 6 issues of the MK book, but dropped it after that.

I came back for Brubaker/Epting, and haven't looked back.

The book is excellent now. I don't know if I'd call it the best Cap I've ever seen (that would probably go to Stern/Byrne), but its the best the book's been in a long time.

As for sales, Cap has never sold in Spidey/X-Men numbers, so I assume it's just the nature of the title/character.

[Red State Cap]

RedStateCap...what is the books natural audience in your opinion?
Generally speaking, the conservative audience which has always been pointedly ignored by Marvel. Unfortuntately (from my perspective) Cap has been almost always written by liberals for liberals. I believe that sales would, over time, increase dramatically if the book was targeted to an audience that was not ashamed of overt patriotism or of a US-flag-themed hero.

RSC

[Wonder Dude]

Been reading Cap since Englehart was on the book.

[Hombre]

I believe that sales would, over time, increase dramatically if the book was targeted to an audience that was not ashamed of overt patriotism or of a US-flag-themed hero.

RSC

That's very interesting, and it goes beyond this particular moment in the history of Cap, about which I'm not nearly as enthusiastic as others as of the conclusion of the Winter Soldier arc and the current storyline.

What would make Steve an overt Patriot in your opinion that he does not have now?

Love in his Country and its promise of liberty and justice for all... or a willingness to support its political leadership and advance its objectives as any soldier would, without letting his own views of what is right or wrong, or how those objectives conflict with the things the flag he drapes himself in represent to him, interfere with his loyalty and the tasks he has been assigned?

I'd like to know your thoughts on this because even if Cap himself were to embrace a specific political point of view, say that of a conservative Republican, one presumes that, even if there might never be an outright liberal Commander in Chief, there might conceivably be a more or less moderate one, a Republican or a Democrat, with different views on religion, taxation, social issues, etc... how would he act then, what would he be then?

[Edward J Cunningham]

Ultimately, it boils down to the fact that although Captain America is the most RESPECTED superhero in the Marvel Universe, he simply is not as popular as Spider-Man or Wolverine. I think many Avengers fans who consider themselves to be Cap fans prefer to read his adventures in Avengers rather than in his own book. This also applies to Iron Man and Thor.

Eddie Cunningham

[Rich L]

I voted Other - I collected Gru's run on-and-off, all of Waid's runs, the HR run (to my shame!) and all of Jurgen's run on the book (which I think is really underrated).

I dropped it after two issues of the MK volume - it just wasn't a book I was interested in reading in that light. I came back on for Kirkman's Disassembled tie-ins and stuck around for Brubaker solely because I loved Gotham Central.

It's an excellent book - very different from the Cap I grew up with, more mature and ever-so-slightly more grounded in reality (comic book reality, but still). I wish more people were reading it, but I think its pretty safe right now.

[Earth2Jeff]

I've read Cap off and on for years...Stern/Byrne, DeMatties/Zeck, and especially the first half or so of Gruenwald's run are favorites.

With the current series, I picked up the first issue and loved it, but waited for the first HC. Now I'm waiting for the second HC to come out next month, but in the meantime I'm picking up new issues from #15, but won't read em until I finish the second HC, so I voted "Other".

[Jmacq1]

Started reading again with Brubaker, though I've read off and on throughout the years. Had all of Volume 3, but skipped MK Cap and Cap & Falcon.

Personally, I think the Brubaker run is the best Cap has ever been.

And speaking as a moderate with conservative leanings, making Cap a "conservative book" would just be going against the way the character has portrayed for the last 50 years. Not to mention that then you're potentially alienating those of a more liberal bent buying the comic. I highly doubt that turning Cap into a Neo-Con is going to cause a bunch of Republicans to suddenly and spontaneously become comic-readers.

There -is- an "ultra-conservative" Cap, though...he's called USAgent.

Cap isn't about being a government toadie or a jingoistic rah-rah flag-waver. He's about ideals, not politics. It's unfortunate that many writers have tried to give him a slant one way or another, when really Cap should be about the most moderate moderate there is. He should blend the best attributes of both conservatives -and- liberals (yeah, I know, let the pot-shots about "there's nothing good about conservatives/liberals!" begin). Good writers manage to have him find that balance (or keep the politics to a minimum). Bad writers often decide he's either ultra-conservative or ultra-liberal (usually to match what their own views are).

Basically, the comic-creators are generally of a more liberal bent, anyway. I hardly think they're going to turn the character that's supposed to be the "conscience" of the Marvel U into an icon solely for the political party/administration they clearly don't care for.

[The Shadow]

Generally speaking, the conservative audience which has always been pointedly ignored by Marvel. Unfortuntately (from my perspective) Cap has been almost always written by liberals for liberals. I believe that sales would, over time, increase dramatically if the book was targeted to an audience that was not ashamed of overt patriotism or of a US-flag-themed hero.

RSC
They tried that... his name was JohnWalker.

How is Cap not overtly patriotic?

[The Shadow]

Cap isn't about being a government toadie or a jingoistic rah-rah flag-waver. He's about ideals, not politics.
Nice post!

[Babylon23]

I'm not an American, so forgive me if I'm mistaken, but America was founded on some very liberal ideas of freedom and equality. I don't see any problem with a liberal-leaning Cap that reflects these ideals. I think Cap represents the ideals of America rather than a specific political leaning.

[Violently Apathetic]

Ditto on what Babylon said.

I didn't start picking up Captain America until Brubaker took over, but I had always liked him a lot from what I saw of him in team books and specials. Now that I am reading his book I have an even greater love and respect for Steve, who somehow manages to represent a lot of what I love about America and very little of the stuff I'm...a little less fond of *cough*.

Plus there's the very fangirly reaction I tend to have when he's on panel 'Oh, Captain America! *swoon*'

[Shellhead]

Generally speaking, the conservative audience which has always been pointedly ignored by Marvel. Unfortuntately (from my perspective) Cap has been almost always written by liberals for liberals. I believe that sales would, over time, increase dramatically if the book was targeted to an audience that was not ashamed of overt patriotism or of a US-flag-themed hero.

RSC

I agree with your analysis. I am a moderte liberal, but I consider myself a fan of Captain America. That might be, in part, because the lengthy Steve Englehart run in the 70's was going on when I first got into comics. But I have noticed that conservatives tend to be more enthusiastic about Cap then the average comic fan, so it makes sense that an overtly patriotic Cap would do well with conservative comic fans. On the other hand, if CBR is any indication, it appears that comic fans tend to be liberal, so that a more conservative Cap might be a bad marketing strategy in terms of overall sales.

In answer to the original question, I haven't been buying Captain America much in recent years. I have a limited budget for buying comics, so I absolutely require both excellent artwork and excellent writing in each comic I buy. Also, I have become increasingly alienated by Quesada's Marvel, with the issue #1 reboots, the decompressed storytelling, and the slack enforcement of deadlines. And I don't like the resurrection of Bucky. I do respect Brubaker, so if he gets rid of Bucky and teams up with a great artist like Cassaday, I would definitely start buying Captain America again.

[Steven F.]

I have not been a regular Cap buyer since that run everyone loved before Heroes Reborn. I hated that run...my favorite run was during "Fighting Chance" in the 90's...

Free Spirit and Jack Flag forever!

[Red State Cap]

If one goes by the content of boards like these, one would think that comic fans are mostly liberal and therefore Cap should be targeted at them.
However, this overlooks the fact that Cap's conservative fanbase has been almost entirely driven away by Marvel over the years. Think about it, we're only a year removed from V4, an extremely left-wing take on Cap. Marvel is inherently a leftist corporate culture, and over 30 years has written Cap stories that exclusively serve people like themselves. Is it not understandable that people like me who would love to be buying Cap books have simply given up on Marvel?
I'm not applying this to Mr. Brubaker's book, which I believe has been admirably apolitical. However, the damage that Marvel has done with conservative fans of Cap would take years to repair if they even bothered trying, which they won't. So, IMO, no matter how popular the writer, sales will continue to reflect the absence of the greater half of Cap's fanbase.
We get repeated "U.S./U.S. Govt is the bad guy" stories. OK, Marvel, how about a Cap cover with him punching out Bin Laden? How about Cap vs. Islamic terrorists?

RSC

[Jake V]

We get repeated "U.S./U.S. Govt is the bad guy" stories. OK, Marvel, how about a Cap cover with him punching out Bin Laden? How about Cap vs. Islamic terrorists?

RSC
Wouldn't that sort of trivialize the actual war on terror by depicting a fictional character sort of solving all of our actual problems?

I mean, I understand how Cap was depicted in WW2, but the world is a much different place today.

I dunno, I just don't like Cap being used as a tool of either side of the ideological spectrum. Which is why I like Brubaker's Cap. Cap DOES fight terrorists, but they are super-terrorists. Pretty appropriate for a comic book world.

[The Shadow]

I absolutely require both excellent artwork and excellent writing in each comic I buy.
/snip/
I do respect Brubaker /snip/ and teams up with a great artist like Cassaday
You don't like Epting's pencils???

[Shellhead]

You don't like Epting's pencils???

Steve Epting is good, but I need a great artist to justify $36.00 per year on that comic. If I squint, Epting reminds me of Steranko in a good way, but it's not quite there. And I hate the way modern Marvel artists continue to display their ignorance of the difference between chainmail and scale mail. The only exception on my artwork rule right now is Waid and Kitson's Legion of Super-Heroes, and I have been considering dropping it in recent months.

[Violently Apathetic]

We get repeated "U.S./U.S. Govt is the bad guy" stories. OK, Marvel, how about a Cap cover with him punching out Bin Laden? How about Cap vs. Islamic terrorists?

RSC

Islamic terrorists? I think he should stick to fighting fictional super terrorists. While real world politics can be alluded to, something so specific is trivializing to the real war effort, as previously mentioned, and also runs the risk of offending a lot of people for no apparent reason as the same point could be made without focusing on a single group.

Besides, I don't think fighting terrorists is a strictly conservative trait. However if Cap where advocating carpet bombing entire nations that would be a little different...

I say leave the punching out of Bin Laden to 'Holy Terror, Batman!'

[marvelboi77]

I did not read Captain America until Wizard called it the book of the year or writer of the year or something to that effect. So I bought the first trade off of Ebay called the Winter Soldier. This book was so good, but because I bought the first in trade I'm going to collect them in trade. I can't wait for the next one so I can see how the Bucky thing turned out. I mean I have some clue as to how it turned out because he made an appearance in Wolverine. The art and color on this book are fantastic as well.

[StoneGold]

And I hate the way modern Marvel artists continue to display their ignorance of the difference between chainmail and scale mail.
Blame Kirby for that. It's just a more three dimensional looking version of the way he drew it. If anything blame Stan (or Joe, if it went back that far, I'd have to reread the Golden Age stuff) for calling it chain mail.

http://www.leconcombre.com/serials/CapAmerica/34cover.jpg
http://www.usscatastrophe.com/itlives/library/covers/captain_america_007.jpg
http://www.dynamicforces.com/images/capamerica1df.jpg
See, same basic deal, but with a bit more definition.

[Shellhead]

Good points about the scale mail, StoneGold. I just don't care for the way that it's emphasized so much by the current crop of Marvel artists. It's very detailed looking, but distracts a bit from the overall look. It's kind of like musicans with great technique but no song-writing ability.

[StoneGold]

It's kind of like musicans with great technique but no song-writing ability.
It was just something very specific they were trying to do for the fourth volume, to give Cap a more "real world" look. So the armor got more definition, the mask took on a more leathery look, and Cap got those pouches he never used till Brubaker stuffed some flash bombs into them. I remember at one point, someone even drew the boots as combat boots with the tops turned over, instead of just the buccaneer boots. Which wasn't that bad an idea, come to think of it, but it was an attempt to make him look less like a stereotypical superhero, more like a Super Soldier.

Now, whether or not you agree with that philosophy is something else entirely, but there you go.

[Kirk G]

I was following the Avengers, purely because someone told me they were Dissassembling the team and that Vision was ripped in half by She-Hulk. Otherwise, I was about to drop out of comics altogether. As Avengers relaunched, I thought I'd gamble on the new relaunch of Capt America, Iron Man, and whoever, and happily, I've been with mr. brubaker for the entire run so far. Always on time, always great art, always a well-thought out plot.... No complaints.

So, I would have added an additional option to the poll... I pick and choose whatever's good, and Ed Brubakers' GOOD!

[StoneGold]

I pick and choose whatever's good, and Bruebakers' GOOD!
But not so good that you'd spell check his name!!!!

I keed, I keed.

[Dial Tone]

Steve Epting is good, but I need a great artist to justify $36.00 per year on that comic. If I squint, Epting reminds me of Steranko in a good way, but it's not quite there. And I hate the way modern Marvel artists continue to display their ignorance of the difference between chainmail and scale mail. The only exception on my artwork rule right now is Waid and Kitson's Legion of Super-Heroes, and I have been considering dropping it in recent months.

I LOOOOOOOOOOVE Steve Epting's art. There isn't a better artist working today, and even though Perkins is quite good, the quality of the last few issues dropped slightly because Epting wasn't drawing the book. I really look forward to his return in issue 18!

[Meta 05]

I had to drop it because there were so many other series i wanted to collect.I would have loved to keep it up but unfortunatly at 2.99 per book these days i have to be very fickle, i either love it or drop it.Ms Marvel beat Cap out for a place on my monthly buys.

I like capt but it was alittle to dark, i already get enough of that from my gothem batfamily books so no need for redundant themed titles with the same feel.

[Gladiator X]

"I always collect Cap regardless of who's doing it!"

.....and have since ish #180.

This is the best the book has been since Byrne and Stern,IMO.

[Red State Cap]

Wouldn't that sort of trivialize the actual war on terror by depicting a fictional character sort of solving all of our actual problems?
I mean, I understand how Cap was depicted in WW2, but the world is a much different place today.
I dunno, I just don't like Cap being used as a tool of either side of the ideological spectrum. Which is why I like Brubaker's Cap. Cap DOES fight terrorists, but they are super-terrorists. Pretty appropriate for a comic book world.
Did WWII-era Cap trivialize the fight against Nazism? Of course not! The idea is ludicrous. Why then is it trivializing the War on Terror to show Cap fighting Arab terrorists? This "argument" is just a tactic for Marvel and the left to avoid addressing the idea of Cap actually fighting Islamic terrorists.
Look at it another way. If it is, as you and others are suggesting, unacceptable trivialization of complex real-world problems to show Cap bopping terrorists on the chin, then why is it conversely acceptable to show Cap in opposition to the U.S. Govt. as has been repeatedly done in recent years? I smell a double-standard. If the US govt can be the bad guy in a Cap book, then Bin Laden can be the bad guy.
And regardless of your opinion that Cap should not be an ideological tool for either side, the inarguable fact is that he has been a tool exclusively for various left-wing writers.

RSC

[StoneGold]

Did WWII-era Cap trivialize the fight against Nazism? Of course not! The idea is ludicrous. Why then is it trivializing the War on Terror to show Cap fighting Arab terrorists? This "argument" is just a tactic for Marvel and the left to avoid addressing the idea of Cap actually fighting Islamic terrorists.

RSC
Here's the problem, can you do it and feel good about yourself in the morning? In fact, given much of Kirby's later work, I wouldn't be surprised if he felt slightly ashamed of stuff like this...

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/news_images/792_1570_4.jpg
http://captain-america.us/images/wallpaper/capcomics/cap8.jpg
http://captain-america.us/images/wallpaper/capcomics/cap31.jpg

OK, I know the last one isn't Kirby, but I couldn't find an online picture of when Cap is randomly killing the African zombies like I wanted to.

[The Shadow]

I had to drop it because there were so many other series i wanted to collect.
I get that! I quit eating Big Mac's to help afford books I wanted (and my heart is thanking me!)

Ms Marvel beat Cap out for a place on my monthly buys.
... I think that's gotta be a first!

I like capt but it was alittle to dark, i already get enough of that from my gothem batfamily books so no need for redundant themed titles with the same feel.
Yeah but the difference is Brubaker is a better writer than Winick could ever hope to be. And Batman doesn't leave Gotham too often whereas Cap's gotr that international travel down!

[The Shadow]

"I always collect Cap regardless of who's doing it!"

.....and have since ish #180.

This is the best the book has been since Byrne and Stern,IMO.
Wow!

An OLD time fan!!

[Jake V]

Did WWII-era Cap trivialize the fight against Nazism? Of course not! The idea is ludicrous. Why then is it trivializing the War on Terror to show Cap fighting Arab terrorists? This "argument" is just a tactic for Marvel and the left to avoid addressing the idea of Cap actually fighting Islamic terrorists.
Look at it another way. If it is, as you and others are suggesting, unacceptable trivialization of complex real-world problems to show Cap bopping terrorists on the chin, then why is it conversely acceptable to show Cap in opposition to the U.S. Govt. as has been repeatedly done in recent years? I smell a double-standard. If the US govt can be the bad guy in a Cap book, then Bin Laden can be the bad guy.
And regardless of your opinion that Cap should not be an ideological tool for either side, the inarguable fact is that he has been a tool exclusively for various left-wing writers.

RSC
He still shouldn't be. And using him as a tool for conservatives isn't going to even the scales or anything.

I just think that the current war shouldn't be a part of current marvel books. Lets face it, in the marvel universe, 9/11 wouldn't have happened. And even if it did, it wouldn't be nearly the same scale of tragedy that events like Onslaught or Atlantis Attacks or Magneto's Planet X were. You put these real world events into Marvel comics and their real world impact is lessened because it has to stand along side other fictional events. Within the context of the Marvel universe, which is the bigger tragedy? The world trade center being destroyed, or genosha getting obliterated by sentinels? An average Magneto rampage probably has a higher bodycount.

As for it being acceptable to show Cap in opposition to the US Government? In the Marvel universe it's a fictional US government. Its in a completely different context. If you go down the road of Cap fighting against real world terrorists, you're left with 2 choices: One, the hero has to go all the way and solve the real world problem. You think that in the Marvel Universe, Bin Laden wouldn't have been found yet? Superheroes or SHIELD could have ended the whole thing in a week, and that trivializes the real world issues.

Two, the heroes fight a sustained battle against the terrorists until the real world conflict ends. This trivializes the heroes themselves. It is laughable to believe that a world filled with as many superheroes as Marvel earth is would have any war last as long as they tend to.

I think its best that the superheroes stay out of it. I'd much rather see Cap fighting Hydra than Al Qaeda. I'd much rather see a war against Latveria than a war against Iraq.

[The Shadow]

If it is, as you and others are suggesting, unacceptable trivialization of complex real-world problems to show Cap bopping terrorists on the chin, then why is it conversely acceptable to show Cap in opposition to the U.S. Govt. as has been repeatedly done in recent years? I smell a double-standard. If the US govt can be the bad guy in a Cap book, then Bin Laden can be the bad guy.
First off... do you REALLY want to see Cap fighting terrorists that aren't AIM or Hydra? I don't know about you but I get enough of that on TV nightly... that I don't want/need to see it in my entertainment.

Secondly, look at the covers posted by StoneGold. Look at the depiction of the Nazi's and Japanese. I have no idea of the number of Arab or Muslim or people of those backgrounds that buy comics... but I don't think the portrayal would be accurate... and as often times happens, those groups would be painted with a broad brush... labeling all of them "towel heads" o terrorists. IF there were some POSITIVE Muslim or Arab characters to offset the bad guys I could see it working... but sadly the average person's stereotypes would get in the way no matter how it was addressed.
Like Violently Apathetic said: "runs the risk of offending a lot of people for no apparent reason as the same point could be made without focusing on a single group.

And regardless of your opinion that Cap should not be an ideological tool for either side, the inarguable fact is that he has been a tool exclusively for various left-wing writers.
Exclusivly for various left-wing writers? You don't think those covers posted show a rightwing leaning Cap killing the Nazi and Japanese monsters? How about the war bond stuff? "Donate money and fight the Japs!"

I think Cap stands for ideals and freedom... NOT any government. That's why he CAN and DOES stand up for it... when those rights, beliefs and ideas he stands for are stepped on.

[The Shadow]

He still shouldn't be. And using him as a tool for conservatives isn't going to even the scales or anything.

I just think that the current war shouldn't be a part of current marvel books. Lets face it, in the marvel universe, 9/11 wouldn't have happened. And even if it did, it wouldn't be nearly the same scale of tragedy that events like Onslaught or Atlantis Attacks or Magneto's Planet X were. You put these real world events into Marvel comics and their real world impact is lessened because it has to stand along side other fictional events. Within the context of the Marvel universe, which is the bigger tragedy? The world trade center being destroyed, or genosha getting obliterated by sentinels? An average Magneto rampage probably has a higher bodycount.

As for it being acceptable to show Cap in opposition to the US Government? In the Marvel universe it's a fictional US government. Its in a completely different context. If you go down the road of Cap fighting against real world terrorists, you're left with 2 choices: One, the hero has to go all the way and solve the real world problem. You think that in the Marvel Universe, Bin Laden wouldn't have been found yet? Superheroes or SHIELD could have ended the whole thing in a week, and that trivializes the real world issues.

Two, the heroes fight a sustained battle against the terrorists until the real world conflict ends. This trivializes the heroes themselves. It is laughable to believe that a world filled with as many superheroes as Marvel earth is would have any war last as long as they tend to.

I think its best that the superheroes stay out of it. I'd much rather see Cap fighting Hydra than Al Qaeda. I'd much rather see a war against Latveria than a war against Iraq.
Nice post.

What he said.

[StoneGold]

Now I really am wondering, given Kirby's later work, if anyone ever asked him how he felt about the racial stereotypes he used in his younger days. Because, OK, some of his later attempts to be racially inclusive might have been a litte ham fisted, but there is a world of difference between the mindless black slave in Captain America and Vykin, who was actually the smart one of the Young Gods.


Although that's what was cool about Jack, he could vibe on the counterculture movement, while still being a slightly out of touch, too old guy.

[The Shadow]

Now I really am wondering, given Kirby's later work, if anyone ever asked him how he felt about the racial stereotypes he used in his younger days. Because, OK, some of his later attempts to be racially inclusive might have been a litte ham fisted, but there is a world of difference between the mindless black slave in Captain America and Vykin, who was actually the smart one of the Young Gods.
Interesting question!

I think a lot of that early stuff was a product of the times though.

[Red State Cap]

First off... do you REALLY want to see Cap fighting terrorists that aren't AIM or Hydra? I don't know about you but I get enough of that on TV nightly... that I don't want/need to see it in my entertainment.

Yes, I do. And again, if you are saying that you don't want to see real-world terrorist threats addressed in the Cap book, then why is it conversely acceptable to repeatedly villify the US government or military?
Secondly, look at the covers posted by StoneGold. Look at the depiction of the Nazi's and Japanese. I have no idea of the number of Arab or Muslim or people of those backgrounds that buy comics... but I don't think the portrayal would be accurate... and as often times happens, those groups would be painted with a broad brush... labeling all of them "towel heads" o terrorists. IF there were some POSITIVE Muslim or Arab characters to offset the bad guys I could see it working... but sadly the average person's stereotypes would get in the way no matter how it was addressed.
The Golden-Age covers were a product of the times, not only of the war, but of societal attitudes in general. You take issue with the cartoony demonization of Nazis and Japanese, OK. Then do you also take issue with, for example, Mark Gruenwald's on-panel demonization of Ronald Reagan? What's the difference?
Like Violently Apathetic said: "runs the risk of offending a lot of people for no apparent reason as the same point could be made without focusing on a single group.
But you do think it's OK to make a point of offending conservative fans for no reason other than to push the writer's agenda? Double standard.

Exclusivly for various left-wing writers? You don't think those covers posted show a rightwing leaning Cap killing the Nazi and Japanese monsters? How about the war bond stuff? "Donate money and fight the Japs!"
My statement was directed toward the modern-age Cap series, not Golden-Age Cap. Sorry not to make that explicit.

I think Cap stands for ideals and freedom... NOT any government. That's why he CAN and DOES stand up for it... when those rights, beliefs and ideas he stands for are stepped on.
That's just a nice dodge to politicize Cap without having to admit you're politicizing him. The United States is a democratic republic. The job of the US govt is to uphold the US constitution and protect the rights and interests of Americans. The policies of the government are ultimately a reflection of the will of the people, and subject to public referendum. What you are really saying is that if you and the writer dislike the government in power (i.e. Republicans) then Cap should be pointedly distanced from (and even shown in opposition to) that government.

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[tjarvis]

I think the repeated Cap vs. American government stories that pop up has less to do with liberal intentions, and more to do with storytelling potential. Captain America is indellibaly linked to the US Government in some ways, as he is a very symbol for the country itself.

Doing a storyline where Cap comes into conflict with some politicians simply offers the dramatic potential of seperating Captain America from his bedrock of stability, which allows a writer to really get inside Cap's head and gives him lots of dramatic grist to work with.

It's not really different than the constant events that plague Daredevil and Spider-Man, as writers always end up tearing down the character's support roots to make them stand on their own, which harkens to the concept of Individualism, a decidely American concept regardless of Liberal or Conservative.

It just so happens that in Cap's instance, the US Government is one of his support roots, so writers frequently tear him away from it because that's the fundamental mythic story that comics always end up telling, a man on their own. So I think the claim of liberal agenda (although their have definitely been a few) is definitely a little off.

[Red State Cap]

He still shouldn't be. And using him as a tool for conservatives isn't going to even the scales or anything.
But it is acceptable for him to continue to be used as a left-wing tool every so often? Do you really think that this isn't going to happen?

I just think that the current war shouldn't be a part of current marvel books. Lets face it, in the marvel universe, 9/11 wouldn't have happened.
Really? I don't think that's a supportable statement, given the number of times "villain X" has wiped out "city Y."

And even if it did, it wouldn't be nearly the same scale of tragedy that events like Onslaught or Atlantis Attacks or Magneto's Planet X were. You put these real world events into Marvel comics and their real world impact is lessened because it has to stand along side other fictional events. Within the context of the Marvel universe, which is the bigger tragedy? The world trade center being destroyed, or genosha getting obliterated by sentinels? An average Magneto rampage probably has a higher bodycount.
That's a legitimate question. However, what you fail to consider is that Marvel has never shown the slightest concern for writing real consequences for large-scale MU tragedies. Various writers simply use mass-destruction as a "gee-whiz" device to pump up a villain and make for exciting panels. How many times has New York (for example) been razed to the ground (presumably killing millions) only to appear whole and intact a few issues later in another book to be devastated by another villain? And how many times has said villain been captured only to escape from "supercriminal escape-proof prison" to do it all over again? Every time. If "real logic" were applied by Marvel writers to tragic events, superheroes would have been executing supercriminals on sight long ago. Marvel has never, ever addressed the logical consequences of what it shows on panel in terms of death and destruction.
Actually, showing a "real-world-logic" response to 911 within the MU would be a stunningly original and compelling development for Marvel.

As for it being acceptable to show Cap in opposition to the US Government? In the Marvel universe it's a fictional US government. Its in a completely different context.
The same "logic" should also apply to a terrorist threat then. If it's acceptable to show Cap in opposition to the US govt. because "it's a fictional US government" then it should also be acceptable to show Cap in action against Al-Quaeda because "it's a fictional Al-Quaeda." Yes?

If you go down the road of Cap fighting against real world terrorists, you're left with 2 choices: One, the hero has to go all the way and solve the real world problem. You think that in the Marvel Universe, Bin Laden wouldn't have been found yet? Superheroes or SHIELD could have ended the whole thing in a week, and that trivializes the real world issues.
The idea that you can't portray the War on Terror because the ending is unknown is fallacious. Cap #1 was published in the Summer of 1941, 6 months before the US entered the war. Could Simon and Kirby have known the outcome of the war? No, of course not. Even late in the war the course of events was unknowable. Therefore Simon and Kirby should not have written Cap fighting the Nazis. That's obviously a ridiculous statement.
And as to finding Bin Laden, well, you're applying real-world logic to one situation while refusing to apply it to others. Look at it this way. Why should it be any harder for the assembled Marvel heroes to "just find the Red Skull (or insert villain "X") in a couple of weeks and be done with it" than it would be to find Bin-Laden? Obviously, comics are fictional and the writer has the power to stretch out the series as long as he needs to, with whatever logic he needs to do that. The problem for the heroes, as it is for our real-world military, is distinguishing terrorists that are indistinguishable from non-terrorists.

Two, the heroes fight a sustained battle against the terrorists until the real world conflict ends. This trivializes the heroes themselves. It is laughable to believe that a world filled with as many superheroes as Marvel earth is would have any war last as long as they tend to.
It trivializes the heroes of an American comic book company to show them fighting the people that want to kill Americans? That's an interesting idea. So that is trivial, but having Cap fight, oh, Batroc for the 45th time is non-trivial. :rolleyes:

I think its best that the superheroes stay out of it. I'd much rather see Cap fighting Hydra than Al Qaeda. I'd much rather see a war against Latveria than a war against Iraq.
That's your choice of course, but I see things differently.

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[Jake V]

But it is acceptable for him to continue to be used as a left-wing tool every so often? Do you really think that this isn't going to happen?
I'm not saying I condone it or anything. I too was turned off by how left leaning the MK series was. The only issues I bought were the ones Cassaday drew. I'm just saying that ideally, he shouldn't be used by either side of the political spectrum. Which is why I like Brubaker's run so much. It's just Cap fighting supervillains and superterrorists.

Really? I don't think that's a supportable statement, given the number of times "villain X" has wiped out "city Y."
Supervillains tend to use more advanced weapons than airplanes. Magneto didn't waste NYC with conventional weapons, he used his mutant powers. Maybe a plane might have hit the first tower, there is the whole element of surprise thing, but I find it hard to believe that Iron Man, Ms Marvel, or any number of flying heroes wouldn't have stopped the other 3 planes.

That's a legitimate question. However, what you fail to consider is that Marvel has never shown the slightest concern for writing real consequences for large-scale MU tragedies. Various writers simply use mass-destruction as a "gee-whiz" device to pump up a villain and make for exciting panels. How many times has New York (for example) been razed to the ground (presumably killing millions) only to appear whole and intact a few issues later in another book to be devastated by another villain? And how many times has said villain been captured only to escape from "supercriminal escape-proof prison" to do it all over again? Every time. If "real logic" were applied by Marvel writers to tragic events, superheroes would have been executing supercriminals on sight long ago. Marvel has never, ever addressed the logical consequences of what it shows on panel in terms of death and destruction.
Actually, showing a "real-world-logic" response to 911 within the MU would be a stunningly original and compelling development for Marvel.
Didn’t they try that with Amazing Spider-Man (vol 2) #36? As I recall, it didn’t get the warmest response.
You're looking at the Marvel universe from the perspective of the real world. As much as Marvel tries to emulate the real world, it still is a fantasy world, filled with fantastical people and events. "Real world logic" doesn't apply. It can't apply if the the fantasy world is expected to remain.

The same "logic" should also apply to a terrorist threat then. If it's acceptable to show Cap in opposition to the US govt. because "it's a fictional US government" then it should also be acceptable to show Cap in action against Al-Quaeda because "it's a fictional Al-Quaeda." Yes?
Look at it this way. Comic books are, after stripping away everything else, adolescent power fantasies. It's a youth-based medium, and the characters are childrens characters. What do young people like to do? Rebel. What is the height of rebellion? Opposing the government. Fighting authority is ALWAYS going to be a main componant of comic book fiction, if not all fiction in general. Obviously you might not like that, but its what sells and what works. Comics are written for mass appeal, and opposing authority is an idea that appeals to a wide audience. Why doesn't Cap fight a fictional Al Quaeda? I think its purely a visual reason. Hydra, for example, isn't specific to any certain religion or culture, and is far more visually interesting than guys in turbans.

The idea that you can't portray the War on Terror because the ending is unknown is fallacious. Cap #1 was published in the Summer of 1941, 6 months before the US entered the war. Could Simon and Kirby have known the outcome of the war? No, of course not. Even late in the war the course of events was unknowable. Therefore Simon and Kirby should not have written Cap fighting the Nazis. That's obviously a ridiculous statement.
As I said before, the world is a very different place than it was in 1941. The current war is not a popular one, and the circumstances surrounding WW2 were very different.

And as to finding Bin Laden, well, you're applying real-world logic to one situation while refusing to apply it to others. Look at it this way. Why should it be any harder for the assembled Marvel heroes to "just find the Red Skull (or insert villain "X") in a couple of weeks and be done with it" than it would be to find Bin-Laden? Obviously, comics are fictional and the writer has the power to stretch out the series as long as he needs to, with whatever logic he needs to do that. The problem for the heroes, as it is for our real-world military, is distinguishing terrorists that are indistinguishable from non-terrorists.
The “logic” that would cause superheroes as all powerful as Marvel’s heroes are to fight a long protracted battle against religious fanatics who live in caves would only serve to make the heroes look incompetent. Giving Bin Laden some sort of superpowered means of explaining how he stays hidden kind of keeps him from actually being Bin Laden. And then the heroes aren’t really fighting Al Quaeda, are they?

It trivializes the heroes of an American comic book company to show them fighting the people that want to kill Americans? That's an interesting idea. So that is trivial, but having Cap fight, oh, Batroc for the 45th time is non-trivial. :rolleyes:
I didn’t say that. And no, I don’t want to see Cap fighting Batroc for the 45th time either.

That's your choice of course, but I see things differently.

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Obviously. I’m not trying to change your mind or anything.

[rogerio]

who knows Marvel put one big X on the cover?

[CaptainAwesome]

Now I dont know if anyone has said this yet, but the reason I believe Cap does not fight "real world" villians like Osama Bin Laudin is because it does not sell. Look at the last series: IMO it started off pretty good. Cap dealing with the aftermath of 9/11. Then it deteriorated into a political comentary with all the stuff about Guantanamo Bay. With this new story Cap is more of an espionage type hero, like Jason Bourne. Fighting "real world" villains would not fit into the current story, and ultimately cause a cancellation.

[Citizen V]

I havent read Cap in years,i only have a few issues.I mainly know Cap from the Aveners.

[StoneGold]

Then do you also take issue with, for example, Mark Gruenwald's on-panel demonization of Ronald Reagan? What's the difference?

Having a supervillainess turn him into a snake monster against his will is demonizing? Because then Gru demonized Cap when he turned him into Capwolf. Unless wolves aren't demonic.


The only president I can think of that was actually demonized in the pages of a Captain America comic was Nixon. And then it wasn't really Nixon, it was "a high-ranking member of the US government" who just happened to be in the Oval Office at the time. And considering the impeachment had just happened, I think Englehart can get a pass.


Oh, and the reason Cap doesn't fight real world villains? So, what's he going to do, beat up Osama? Then what? Kind of screws the potential for stories. And then there's the whole thing where what if the real guy turns up dead, but we're in the middle of a 5 part story arc?

[Red State Cap]

Having a supervillainess turn him into a snake monster against his will is demonizing? Because then Gru demonized Cap when he turned him into Capwolf. Unless wolves aren't demonic.
It was a convenient excuse for Gruenwald to demonize him and claim he wasn't. Note that, after Pres. Reagan was "cured," he sports a nice, pointy set of fangs when he smiles for the camera.

The only president I can think of that was actually demonized in the pages of a Captain America comic was Nixon. And then it wasn't really Nixon, it was "a high-ranking member of the US government" who just happened to be in the Oval Office at the time. And considering the impeachment had just happened, I think Englehart can get a pass.
Just to nitpick, Nixon wasn't impeached. He resigned and was pardoned by Ford. But yes, he was demonized by Englehart.

Oh, and the reason Cap doesn't fight real world villains? So, what's he going to do, beat up Osama? Then what? Kind of screws the potential for stories. And then there's the whole thing where what if the real guy turns up dead, but we're in the middle of a 5 part story arc?
Did Cap punching out Hitler on the cover of Captain American #1 spoil the potential for future anti-nazi stories? The story is in the chase.

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[bodie_3_7_ci5]

I dropped Captain America during the Morales run. I've only just added it to my pull list due to all the high praise it gets. I just read the first tpb and I'm really impressed. It's great to see one of my favourite heroes at his best again.

[Xothermic]

Ultimately, it boils down to the fact that although Captain America is the most RESPECTED superhero in the Marvel Universe, he simply is not as popular as Spider-Man or Wolverine. I think many Avengers fans who consider themselves to be Cap fans prefer to read his adventures in Avengers rather than in his own book. This also applies to Iron Man and Thor.

Eddie Cunningham

Yes!! Same with Ironman even though both are my favorite Marvel heroes. C

Caps is always more intriguing to me in the Avengers than the solo thing.

[Dial Tone]

They tried having Cap fight real terrorism as opposed to supervillians when they moved Cap to the Marvel Knights line. It BOMBED.

Thank God Red State Cap is not in charge of Cap's book.

[Annie get your Rum]

Personally, characters like Captain America and SUperman bore me to tears.
The ultimate goody-two-shoes, uber-moralistic boy scouts are simply bland.
I'd rather read about people whose morals are harder to pin down and qualify, like Wolverine, Elektra, Spider-Woman, Mystique, etc...

[Violently Apathetic]

Whereas I find characters like Elektra too morally repugnant to enjoy (I'm a little more tolerant of Mystique and Wolverine, though for the life of me I couldn't explain why...) so yay for different strokes and all that.

[Kid Kyoto]

The problem with fighting real world villians is an old one, Superman had that problem in the 1940's, the hero can't win. As long as real world people are out fighting and dying no one wants to read a story where cap or superman or whoever cleans up Iraq in 15 minutes.

So, no I have interest in seeing Cap knock out Osama Bin Ladden, not until the real world Osama is dealt with at least.

And probably not even then.

[StoneGold]

Did Cap punching out Hitler on the cover of Captain American #1 spoil the potential for future anti-nazi stories? The story is in the chase.

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Yes, but comics back then were written so that you would be satisfied if that was the only Captain America comic you were going to read, ever. They weren't really written with an eye towards continuity.

[The Shadow]

Personally, characters like Captain America and SUperman bore me to tears.
The ultimate goody-two-shoes, uber-moralistic boy scouts are simply bland.
I'd rather read about people whose morals are harder to pin down and qualify, like Wolverine, Elektra, Spider-Woman, Mystique, etc...
I actually prefer those. My friends have called me a boyscout (despite getting kicked out for fighting!) and I can relate. I also wish people had morals and a sense of honour like Cap and Superman. The world needs more black and white people and less shades of grey.