Best and Worst (and Future) Avengers roster

[stillanerd]

Considering how Civil War most likely will result in the break-up of the New Avengers, perhaps we can ask ourselves the following:

1. Which team of Avengers was the best?
2. Which team of Avengers was the worst?
3. What would you like the Avengers roster to be after Civil War?

Here's a link of past Avenger's rosters to help you out (it also includes West Coast Avengers as well): http://www.avengersassemble.us/corerost.html

[Xanrn]

Luke Cage.
Spider-man.
Spider-woman.
Captain America.
Wolverine.
Iron Man.

Sentry never seems to do much when he is on the team and I am not sure if Ronin counts.

After Civil War, I forsee two Avenger teams.

Captain America leading one and Iron Man the other.

Hopefully Daredevil will claim his rightful place on the Avengers in the future.

[marvelboi77]

She-Hulk is one of my favorites but around issue 280-300 wasn't there a team of Captain Marvel, Black Knight, Dr. Druid, She-Hulk. Other than She-Hulk this one was pretty bad.

My favorite Avenger team was Avengers 29 by Perez. It had She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Wasp, Scarlet Witch, Ironman, Giant Man, and Crapathalon. It's one of the few times I can remember the girls out numbered the boys. But it's the only time all 3 of my favs were together, Carol, Jennifer, and Wanda.

My ideal Avenger team would be:
Spider-Woman
Ms. Marvel
She-Hulk
Scarlet Witch
Captain America
Vision
Hawkeye

[Satana Hellstrom]

She-Hulk is one of my favorites but around issue 280-300 wasn't there a team of Captain Marvel, Black Knight, Dr. Druid, She-Hulk. Other than She-Hulk this one was pretty bad.


I think my least favorite lineup was around that time: Wasp, Captain America, Pulsar, Black Knight, Starfox and Hercules IIRC.
Ghastly.

[JuggernautRM]

Now...where do you think Ares will fit into Avengers, and which team.

[O'Grady]

Considering how Civil War most likely will result in the break-up of the New Avengers, perhaps we can ask ourselves the following:

1. Which team of Avengers was the best?

i don't think i've seen the best, yet. but the most enjoyable (for me) was the lineup with Cap, Iron Man, Vision, Ms Marvel, Wonderman, & the Beast. it was the right mix of heavy-hitters and laid back personalities. i wouldn't call it the definitive lineup, though. i also liked Geoff Johns version but mostly because of the creative team behind it. it would have been easy to tell sucky stories with his lineup but he managed to make the 'hard-sells' on the team interesting.

2. Which team of Avengers was the worst?

there have been a lot of really really bad ones. i didn't like the, what i call, 'X-Men-era' where they all wore jackets and Deathcry was a member. the 90's just...were really reallly bad for me.

3. What would you like the Avengers roster to be after Civil War?

i'm fine with the current lineup. just wish that Joe Casey or someone else were writing. some styles i just don't like. my experimental teams would be...

1. Iron Man
2. Ms Marvel
3. Sentry
4. Spiderwoman
5. Luke Cage
6. Iron Fist
7. Daisy Johnson
8. Ant-Man

1. Captain America
2. Wasp
3. Yellowjacket
4. Hulk
5. Spiderman
6. Echo
7. Wolverine
8. Freedom Ring (or Justice)


1. Black Widow
2. Nighthawk
3. Hawkeye
4. Ghost Rider
5. Beast
6. Wonderman
7. Hellcat
8. Giant-Man

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

3. What would you like the Avengers roster to be after Civil War?



Spider-Woman
Captain America
Iron Man
Echo
Wolverine
Sentry
Spider-man

[Earth2Jeff]

My favorite line-up would have to be the classic Perez-era gang: Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, the Vision, the Wasp, Wonder Man, the Beast & Ms Marvel, with a bit of Yellowjacket, the Falcon & Jocasta thrown in for good measure.

My least favorite would be the line-up introduced by Walt Simonson in vol 1 #300 with Mr Fantastic, Invisible Woman & Gilgamesh. Seemed more like an experiment to show why the FF doesn't fit into the Avengers. At least it was a short-lived line-up.

Kinda hard to say what kind of line-up I'd like to see after Civil War, not knowing where everyone's going. I'd like to see Wolverine & Echo gone, and Ms Marvel, Hawkeye, She-Hulk & the Wasp return, and Spider-Man & Sentry can go or stay...don't have terribly strong feelings about them being on the team, but I do like both characters. With all the rumors flying around about the changing Avengers line-up, possibility of a second Avengers team, Alpha Flight and a revived Heroes For Hire series, who knows where everyone's going to wind up? All part of the fun, no? :D

[Haunt]

1. Which team of Avengers was the best?

The Kooky Quartet

2. Which team of Avengers was the worst?

The Lineup with Reed and Sue Richards on it.


3. What would you like the Avengers roster to be after Civil War?

1. US Agent (Jack Daniels)
2. Winter Soldier (James Buchanan Barnes)
3. Growing Man (Lemar Hoskins)
4. Super-Adaptoid (Yelena Belova)
5. Freedom Ring (Curtis Doyle)
6. Megadeth (Daisy Johnson)
7. Deathlok (Larry Young)

[Dial Tone]

The Best:

Captain America
Wasp
Captain Marvel (Monica Rambeau...I wish she would take that name back)
Hercules
Namor
The Black Knight

The Worst:

Captain America
Wolverine
Spider-Man
Spider-Woman
Iron-Man
Cage

Future:

Captain America
Hercules
Hawkeye
She Hulk
Wasp
Captain Marvel
Sentry

[Faded]

(again, limited Avengers knowledge but I wanted to chime in anyway, hope this doesn't sound stupid)

Future:

Beast
Firestar
Wonderman
Darkstar
Vanguard
Hawkeye
The Vision

[Bring Him Back]

Futuere: Id like to see

Cap
Ironman
Thor
Namor
She-Hulk
Spiderman
Hawkeye
Scarlet Witch
Ms. Marvel

[Eumenide No 2]

The Best:

Captain America
Wolverine
Spider-Man
Spider-Woman
Iron-Man
Cage
Sentry
Ronin

The Worst:

Captain America
Wasp
Pulsar
Hrcules
Namor
The Black Knight

Hope for the future:

Captain America
Spider-Woman
Iron-Man
Firebird
Cage
Echo
Storm

[FrogMan]

My team line up for Avengers would be

Slapstick
Steel Spider
Frog-Man
Razorback
Squirrel Girl
NFL SuperPro

Come on. Isn't it time for a new Assistant Editor's month?????

[Agentum]

My team line up for Avengers would be

Slapstick
Steel Spider
Frog-Man
Razorback
Squirrel Girl
NFL SuperPro


Well it's a bit like cheating to have only the best, most powerfull characters on the rooster.
Is that Doorman around that could open doors whatever he wanted?
He should be in too, Flatman?.
But no these are to useless really.

[Haunt]

3. What would you like the Avengers roster to be after Civil War?


The Avengers

1. Iron Man
2. Ms Marvel
3. Sentry
4. Echo
5. Luke Cage
6. Daisy Johnson
7. Spiderman
8. Wolverine

and, just for the fun of it...

Heroes for Hire (Stark-funded)
1. Luke Cage [N/A]
2. Iron Fist [Daniel Rand'Kai]
3. Spiderwoman [Jessica Drew]
4. Black Knight [Dane Whitman]
5. White Tiger [Angela Del Toro]
6. Ant-Man [Eric O'Grady]
7. Paladdin ["Paul Denning"]

[JulianPerez]

What was the best Avengers roster? Well, it's hard to say, because unlike other teams, the most interesting thing about the Avengers has been the impermanence and changeability of the roster. But when I think of the Avengers, I think of the Steve Englehart team: Vision, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Mantis, Swordsman, Black Panther, Hellcat, Beast, Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America.

The best and most classic Avengers team was the one that Busiek used in JLA/AVENGERS: Hawkeye, the Vision, the Wasp, Hank Pym, Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, and the Scarlet Witch.

People have been very hard on the Roger Stern Avengers, and while I do agree that any Avengers team that doesn't have Hawkeye is missing something very vital, the Wasp was a great leader, Hercules was an excellent member with a great swashbuckling personality, and the Black Knight was a character with a lot of history and a lot of guts that was a very worthy member. Submariner and Marinna were members, too, but not for that long. And Captain Marvel Monica Rambeau was a great original character in terms of both personality and power.

The worst Avengers team? This one is easy to answer, the so-called Bendis "New" Avengers - any Avengers team with Wolverine on it is automatically a front-runner for worst. I can't think of members that have less to do with the concept of the group, loners like Daredevil, Luke Cage, Spider-Woman, and Spider-Man, and poor man's Thor substitute and jumped up fanfic character, Sentry, who needs to be retconned away ASAP as a collective hallucination.

I absolutely dread the idea of Mark Waid or Kurt Busiek doing an Avengers story where all the Avengers that there ever were team up for a super-battle, and in comes (MY GOD) Wolverine, Daredevil, Spider-Man, and the Sentry. At least Busiek, who truly understands what the Avengers are about, had the sense to have the Hulk, Spider-Man, and Reed and Sue, who were only TECHNICALLY members, not participate in his big Avengers crossover.

As for what the team should be after Civil War...

Captain America and Iron Man as much as I love them, need to be given a rest. The Avengers as a team are independent of big names. After "New" Avengers, a more classic lineup should be set into play: Thor, Hawkeye, Wasp, Hank Pym, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Wonder Man.

Really, any team is acceptable as long as they work as Avengers and go on Avengers-esque missions instead of being shoved into these Tom Clancy-esque spy plots. And have the book pick up the pace a little! Bendis would make the Old Testament look like a done-in-one.

[Annie get your Rum]

The Avengers as a team are independent of big names. After "New" Avengers, a more classic lineup should be set into play: Thor, Hawkeye, Wasp, Hank Pym, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Wonder Man.


With that lame, dull lineup, the book is sure to decrease in popularity and quality.
Back to the same ole stories of "Hawkeye Has A Chip On His Shoulders", "Wasp And Hank Are Having Marital Problems", "Vision /Scarlet Witch/Wonderman Love Triangle-Patent Pending", "Thor Doth Speaketh In Unintelligible Asgardian Gibberish, Shoot Me Now"
All while fighting the Villain Of The Month, and beating him/her by JoiningTheir CollectiveEnergiesIntoOneSingleBeamOfPower.

zzzzzzz....

No thanks...the book needs to keep going forward, instead of backwards...

[JulianPerez]

Busiek proved that the only thing that is needed to make old stories new again are legitimate and real emotions - yes, he did a Vision/Wonder Man/Scarlet Witch story, but it all felt fresh because Busiek has a skill for making characters behave like real people. You rooted for the Vision for aspiring to be human, and you felt sorry for Simon, who was a penitent individual, and you cheered for Wanda, whose courage and love saved the day.

These characters are strong enough that many different kinds of stories can be told about them.

History with the Avengers is a factor that should be considered. All of the truly great Avengers are characters that have connections with the team and without. Hank Pym was Jan's husband, and in turn the creator of Ultron, who was the creator of the Vision, who is in turn based on Simon Williams...and so forth.

I love Englehart to death, but I thought having Moon Knight on the team was really, really pushing it.

"Hawkeye Has A Chip On His Shoulders"

To my knowledge, I don't think this story has been used in decades.

Part of Hawkeye's character development has been that he has mellowed out and become a mature, responsible character - for instance, he led an Avengers team a while back.

"Wasp And Hank Are Having Marital Problems",

You can tell Hank and Jan stories without going to Marital problems. Hank and Jan's best moments have been when they know each other well and are very much in love.

"Thor Doth Speaketh In Unintelligible Asgardian Gibberish, Shoot Me Now"

Hey, Thor's crazy lingo is pretty cool! If he talked like a normal guy, he wouldn't be as fun.

The most interesting thing about Thor is, he is exactly who he says he is.

With that lame, dull lineup, the book is sure to decrease in popularity and quality.

The Busiek years would contradict this assertion. Didn't Busiek's Avengers win a WIZARD fan poll? A fan poll...for Wizard magazine, the comic book equivalent of TIGER BEAT! The guys who, lest we forget, when picking greatest JLA stories ever, didn't include any Gardner Fox or Englehart stories and had the #1 JLA tale of all time be some Mark Waid tale told only a few years before. They though Busiek's Avengers was cool.

Not every writer is Busiek, though. But that doesn't mean that the things that were important to Busiek: use of history to influence characterization, respect and knowledge of the identity of the group, etc. shouldn't be important to other writers.

and beating him/her by JoiningTheir CollectiveEnergiesIntoOneSingleBeamOfPower.

I will admit, as mistaken as I think you are about a classic Avengers team...

...this bit did make me laugh.

[Jake V]

The worst Avengers team? This one is easy to answer, the so-called Bendis "New" Avengers - any Avengers team with Wolverine on it is automatically a front-runner for worst. I can't think of members that have less to do with the concept of the group
What is the concept? I read the first issue and it said something about a bunch of heroes teaming up to handle threats and enemies that they can't fight individually. New Avengers looks like it fills that requirement.

loners like Daredevil, Luke Cage, Spider-Woman, and Spider-Man, and poor man's Thor substitute and jumped up fanfic character, Sentry, who needs to be retconned away ASAP as a collective hallucination.
Well, Daredevil isn't on the team.

And why does Sentry need to be retconned away? Because you don't like him? There are plenty of people that do. What makes your opinion more valid than anyone elses?

[Haunt]

Busiek proved that the only thing that is needed to make old stories new again are legitimate and real emotions - yes, he did a Vision/Wonder Man/Scarlet Witch story, but it all felt fresh because Busiek has a skill for making characters behave like real people. You rooted for the Vision for aspiring to be human,


i didn't root for Justice who was a real fresh fish.


and you felt sorry for Simon, who was a penitent individual, and you cheered for Wanda, whose courage and love saved the day.


but was all, apparently, a cheap ploy since she's been crazy since West Coast Avengers.


History with the Avengers is a factor that should be considered. All of the truly great Avengers are characters that have connections with the team and without. Hank Pym was Jan's husband, and in turn the creator of Ultron, who was the creator of the Vision, who is in turn based on Simon Williams...and so forth.


not Busiek's fault but it genuinely sucks that Vision had Simon's brain patterns. how unnecessarily complicated. why not just make him his own person, right off the bat? makes Scarlet Witch seem a little shallow that she'd immediately jump Wonderman because he had this in common w/ her husband.


I love Englehart to death, but I thought having Moon Knight on the team was really, really pushing it.


that wasn't MoonKnight; it was Khonshu. i think Marc Spector could have fit on the team (the West Coast team at least). he'd definately fit w/ the Bendisvengers.


You can tell Hank and Jan stories without going to Marital problems. Hank and Jan's best moments have been when they know each other well and are very much in love.


yuck. i'd rather they stay far away from one another. it's the only way either character will grow. pair them up and Jan is going to eventually mention being popped in the face. the rest of the time it's going to be awkward pym particle sex jokes.

Hey, Thor's crazy lingo is pretty cool! If he talked like a normal guy, he wouldn't be as fun.


Ultimates says differently.

The most interesting thing about Thor is, he is exactly who he says he is.


i think the most interesting thng is his powers. look at how geeked everyone is about Doom grabbing his hammer.

[JulianPerez]

What is the concept? I read the first issue and it said something about a bunch of heroes teaming up to handle threats and enemies that they can't fight individually. New Avengers looks like it fills that requirement.

No, that's the concept for the Justice League - this is where the thinking of the writers involved went wrong for NEW AVENGERS: they confused the two teams together, and forgot the Avengers have their own history and unique identity.

The Avengers are not "the best gathered together" and never have been.

That is to say, yes, they are the Earth's Mightiest Heroes, but not because their INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS are the greatest heroes; they are the Earth's Mightiest Heroes because of their teamwork and group dynamic. Kurt Busiek explained the difference like this: the JLA is like the U.S. Olympic Team, whereas the Avengers are the baseball team that wins the world series.

There is a place for Hawkeye, Wasp, Scarlet Witch, and Vision, characters that cannot support their own title, on an Avengers team; in fact, they are infinitely better choices than loners like Spider-Man and Wolverine. Why? Because they make the team stronger because of their additions to group dynamic and team interconnectivity. When a menace happens, the instinct of someone like Spider-Man is to take it on themselves. When something similar happens and it is the Scarlet Witch or Hawkeye that is an observer, their instinct is to hit their communicards and get the rest of the guys in.

And why does Sentry need to be retconned away? Because you don't like him? There are plenty of people that do. What makes your opinion more valid than anyone elses?

The reason is this: we are way past the point that someone this important can retroactively be inserted into Marvel history without it being an insult to the intelligence of the reader, without it feeling phony and aggrivating.

This is also called "Cobalt Blue" syndrome, after the Mark Waid story printed in the 1990s where it was revealed that Barry Allen had a twin brother - and always had, all along! If someone in 1960 wanted to give Barry a twin brother, that would have been fine, but 40 years of stories and a twin brother that was "there all along" can't just pop out of nowhere without seriously straining suspension of disbelief.

The greatest strength of Marvel is this company's great history, which is more or less concrete, a bedrock that future stories are built on.

This is why stories like "Sins Past" and the Reggie Hudlin BLACK PANTHER bother people: because it tells us that the way we saw things happen was not the way it "really" happened at all. History is meaningless if we can't accept what we see as being "true," if it is subject to change at any given time.

Also, the Sentry adds absolutely nothing to the Marvel Universe. I simply cannot accept the Sentry as an Thor replacement. There was zero reason to create a new character when other characters with a long-standing history with the team exist: Hercules, for instance, or the She-Hulk. And the story about him having a dependency on the drug that gives him his powers is one that has been used approximately 4.7 billion times. This plot was ALREADY stale and used a million times before aaaaaaall the way back when Tony Isabella did JUSTICE MACHINE and gave Demon a dependency on the drug that gave him his powers.

Plus the Sentry's raw power level steps on the toes of other characters with better personalities and longer histories. Why should we believe that this Johnny-come-lately we've never heard of before can beat up a being created by Stan and Jack like the Silver Surfer? It slights the Silver Surfer and makes him look like a chump. Now granted, character victories can be great for establishiing new personalities: Englehart had the Defenders, a new team, win the Avengers/Defenders War. But the difference is that AVENGERS/DEFENDERS WAR established the Defenders as a team. All that these battles did for the Sentry was to establish him as Gary Stu annoying.

i didn't root for Justice who was a real fresh fish.

Really? I liked Justice. His desire to be an Avenger and fit in made him immediately sympathetic, because, can't everyone understand the desire to fit in? And when he started making mistakes, it got us on his side, because he became Rocky Balboa, the underdog.

but was all, apparently, a cheap ploy since she's been crazy since West Coast Avengers.

See what I said above about "stories that make what happened in the past not true." Wanda was clearly characterized as, not just perfectly sane, but heroic and confident and well-adjusted as well; for godsakes, she was DEPUTY LEADER. She was the sane one, the bedrock; for instance, Wanda was the one worried about her friend Carol, for instance, when Carol descended into alcoholism.

not Busiek's fault but it genuinely sucks that Vision had Simon's brain patterns. how unnecessarily complicated. why not just make him his own person, right off the bat? makes Scarlet Witch seem a little shallow that she'd immediately jump Wonderman because he had this in common w/ her husband.

On the contrary, I think it characterizes Wanda as being a deep person that loves the Vision for who he is. How do we know? Because when a person like him a lot shows up, she likes him!

Plus, the Vision having Wonder Man's brain patterns was a pretty good idea. For one thing, when the REAL Wonder Man showed up back in the Perez/Conway years, it altered the Vision's characterization and made him feel conspicuously artificial.

he'd definately fit w/ the Bendisvengers.

Agreed. And it's not a compliment when I say that a character who was too much of a loner to plausibly be an Avenger, would "fit right in" to the Bendisvengers.

yuck. i'd rather they stay far away from one another. it's the only way either character will grow. pair them up and Jan is going to eventually mention being popped in the face.

This was an ugly story where Hank was written vastly out of character by Jim Shooter, and should never be interpreted as being the definitive Hank Pym characterization. There's a reason every single writer after has had to play "damage control" on this.

But they can grow together as well as apart. And Jan dating Hawkeye is not the way to go.

the rest of the time it's going to be awkward pym particle sex jokes.

I laugh along with these jokes as much as anybody else, but that doesn't disqualify these two as being great Avengers.

There are members of the Legion of Super-Heroes who have powers only suited to weird sex...and not much else. Does that mean Luornu Durgo should not be used in Legion stories?

Ultimates says differently.

No, Ultimates proves my point. Ultimate Thor, whose initial story arc is based on "is he Thor or a crazy guy that THINKS he's Thor" featured a character that was vastly diminished, less theatrical, and with none of the grandiosity that defined one of Stan and Jack's greatest creations.

i think the most interesting thng is his powers.

I disagree. There are lots of ultrapowerful characters around that are not as interesting as Thor.

Thor, from JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY all the way to Roy Thomas's run, was defined by 1) his very simplistic personality (not that he was stupid; back in JOURNEY #115 (1965) Thor defeated the Absorbing Man by whirling his hammer around him at Cyclotronic speeds to transform Creel into hydrogen) which is action-oriented, fearless, and striking for "justice and honor." 2) The literal fact that Thor is a god. Thor talks like a god - he brooks no insult from mere mortals, and remains aloof. He shows us what being immortal really means, and is played with this astonishing grandiosity.

"Look, Jane Foster!" He says. "I COMMAND YOU TO LOOK!"

[Haunt]

That is to say, yes, they are the Earth's Mightiest Heroes, but not because their INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS are the greatest heroes; they are the Earth's Mightiest Heroes because of their teamwork and group dynamic. Kurt Busiek explained the difference like this: the JLA is like the U.S. Olympic Team, whereas the Avengers are the baseball team that wins the world series.

i can agree with that much.

Also, the Sentry adds absolutely nothing to the Marvel Universe.

i disagree. i think he's a more suitable Superman analog than Thor. and he's makes a good 'companion' for the Hulk. that said, i don't like him as an Avenger. i think he would have been best served as a solo hero or one of the Defenders. fits his reclusive nature a little better. but i have nothing against the character himself.


Plus the Sentry's raw power level steps on the toes of other characters with better personalities and longer histories. Why should we believe that this Johnny-come-lately we've never heard of before can beat up a being created by Stan and Jack like the Silver Surfer? It slights the Silver Surfer and makes him look like a chump.


the Silver Surfer has the personality of paste. he's a cool visual and nothing more to me. i don't care if Stan and Jack created him. they've created a few losers as well.


Really? I liked Justice. His desire to be an Avenger and fit in made him immediately sympathetic, because, can't everyone understand the desire to fit in? And when he started making mistakes, it got us on his side, because he became Rocky Balboa, the underdog.

he had a crappy haircut. and i'd liken his personality to Scrappy Doo's; just too enthusiastic & serious about what he was doing. there are better ways to show a rookie hero being unsure of themselves. they don't have to be a geek about it. Firestar wasn't and i was actually glad that she joined the team. and he really had no one to play off of.


On the contrary, I think it characterizes Wanda as being a deep person that loves the Vision for who he is. How do we know? Because when a person like him a lot shows up, she likes him!

so you're in a committed relationship with an individual. you get into a car accident and are left amnesic. your partner decides to move on and date someone who is superficially like you used to be. you're flattered? that makes him/her deep?

Plus, the Vision having Wonder Man's brain patterns was a pretty good idea. For one thing, when the REAL Wonder Man showed up back in the Perez/Conway years, it altered the Vision's characterization and made him feel conspicuously artificial.

could have been a complete stranger's brain patterns (a relative of Phineas Horton, for instance) and the story would have still worked. Simon's personality wasn't really strong enough to justify sharing it anyways.


This was an ugly story where Hank was written vastly out of character by Jim Shooter,

him being out of character was the point. he had snapped. this wasn't all that unbelievable. he was under a lot of stress and had always had a fragile ego; evidenced by his first few losses to the Human Top and his comparing his own powers unfavorably to Thor & the Hulk. Jan was a big part of this. she's really not a suitable mate for someone who isn't a self-assured jack@%%; high-maintenanced flirt.

and should never be interpreted as being the definitive Hank Pym characterization. There's a reason every single writer after has had to play "damage control" on this.

it is definately his shining moment after busting up Ultron (who apparently recovered). and the writers didn't have to play 'damage control.' they could have not forced the two back together and just let it ride; them be friends. have either character move on (& i'm not talking about dating a teammate) and it will no longer be an issue, imo.


But they can grow together as well as apart. And Jan dating Hawkeye is not the way to go.

i never mentioned Hawkeye. to me that was obviously Wanda messing with their minds. it cooled off almost immediately after Austen realized that he couldn't do his giant-Clint vs giant-Pym fight story.


I laugh along with these jokes as much as anybody else, but that doesn't disqualify these two as being great Avengers.

yeah, but them being a couple isn't a requirement for them being great Avengers either, imo.


No, Ultimates proves my point. Ultimate Thor, whose initial story arc is based on "is he Thor or a crazy guy that THINKS he's Thor" featured a character that was vastly diminished, less theatrical, and with none of the grandiosity that defined one of Stan and Jack's greatest creations.

to each their own. i'm thinking that a show of hands might surprise you.


"Look, Jane Foster!" He says. "I COMMAND YOU TO LOOK!"

guh. i tend to not like characters who speak like this.

[Jake V]

No, that's the concept for the Justice League - this is where the thinking of the writers involved went wrong for NEW AVENGERS: they confused the two teams together, and forgot the Avengers have their own history and unique identity.

The Avengers are not "the best gathered together" and never have been.
So, that whole "and there came a day, unlike any other..." thing means what exactly? As far as I can remember, Stan and Jack's Avengers were all solo heroes prior to joining the team. I see no reason why these new guys can't congeal as a team like the guys who started the whole thing.

That is to say, yes, they are the Earth's Mightiest Heroes, but not because their INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS are the greatest heroes; they are the Earth's Mightiest Heroes because of their teamwork and group dynamic. Kurt Busiek explained the difference like this: the JLA is like the U.S. Olympic Team, whereas the Avengers are the baseball team that wins the world series.

There is a place for Hawkeye, Wasp, Scarlet Witch, and Vision, characters that cannot support their own title, on an Avengers team; in fact, they are infinitely better choices than loners like Spider-Man and Wolverine. Why? Because they make the team stronger because of their additions to group dynamic and team interconnectivity. When a menace happens, the instinct of someone like Spider-Man is to take it on themselves. When something similar happens and it is the Scarlet Witch or Hawkeye that is an observer, their instinct is to hit their communicards and get the rest of the guys in. Wolverine is hardly a loner. He can be a team player just as well as a solo hero. And I'm personally enjoying watching Spider-Man's journey from loner to being a part of team. Lets give the new team a chance to become a team before complaining that they aren’t acting like hardened team players like the classic team. (wow, I sure said team a lot)



The reason is this: we are way past the point that someone this important can retroactively be inserted into Marvel history without it being an insult to the intelligence of the reader, without it feeling phony and aggrivating.
Why don’t I feel insulted then? You calling me stupid? (kidding) Personally, I like the idea that there are new corners to the Marvel Universe that have been there all along. I like the whole “secret history” thing.

This is also called "Cobalt Blue" syndrome, after the Mark Waid story printed in the 1990s where it was revealed that Barry Allen had a twin brother - and always had, all along! If someone in 1960 wanted to give Barry a twin brother, that would have been fine, but 40 years of stories and a twin brother that was "there all along" can't just pop out of nowhere without seriously straining suspension of disbelief.
While I’m not familiar with that specific Flash story, I’d say that The Sentry’s story is fairly different. Its not as if The Sentry showed up one day and everyone suddenly acted like they knew him and he was established. There was a story in place to explain why no one had heard of or remembers him.

The greatest strength of Marvel is this company's great history, which is more or less concrete, a bedrock that future stories are built on.
See, I just see it completely differently. Of course, I’m no big fan of slavish devotion to history or tradition, so this might just be some fundamental difference of belief. I see Marvel’s greatest strength to be it’s characters, not it’s history.

This is why stories like "Sins Past" and the Reggie Hudlin BLACK PANTHER bother people: because it tells us that the way we saw things happen was not the way it "really" happened at all. History is meaningless if we can't accept what we see as being "true," if it is subject to change at any given time.
See, I thought people rejected Sins Past because it had everyone’s favorite virginal blonde having sex with The Green Goblin. And yeah, I agree that it was distasteful, but not because of the assertion that “this is what really happened”, but because what happened was kinda gross. As for Black Panther, it’s Hudlin’s decision to throw away history in favor of the stuff he makes up that pisses people off. There is no story in place that said definitively that the Sentry never existed that his current existence is violating.

Also, the Sentry adds absolutely nothing to the Marvel Universe. I simply cannot accept the Sentry as an Thor replacement. There was zero reason to create a new character when other characters with a long-standing history with the team exist: Hercules, for instance, or the She-Hulk. And the story about him having a dependency on the drug that gives him his powers is one that has been used approximately 4.7 billion times. This plot was ALREADY stale and used a million times before aaaaaaall the way back when Tony Isabella did JUSTICE MACHINE and gave Demon a dependency on the drug that gave him his powers.
He isn’t a Thor replacement. He was created back when Thor was still running around, and Thor wasn’t “killed off” (and he isn’t dead) so Sentry could steal his place on the Avengers. And the “drug dependency” aspect to the character hasn’t been mentioned since the flashbacks in the original 2000 miniseries.

Plus the Sentry's raw power level steps on the toes of other characters with better personalities and longer histories. Why should we believe that this Johnny-come-lately we've never heard of before can beat up a being created by Stan and Jack like the Silver Surfer? It slights the Silver Surfer and makes him look like a chump. Now granted, character victories can be great for establishiing new personalities: Englehart had the Defenders, a new team, win the Avengers/Defenders War. But the difference is that AVENGERS/DEFENDERS WAR established the Defenders as a team. All that these battles did for the Sentry was to establish him as Gary Stu annoying.
I don’t think Sentry beat up the Silver Surfer. It never happened in any Sentry story I’ve read. And how do you define what is a “better personality”? I rather like his borderline schizophrenic personality. Am I wrong to enjoy it more than other similarly powered characters?

[StoneGold]

I rather like his borderline schizophrenic personality. Am I wrong to enjoy it more than other similarly powered characters?
Borderline schizophrenic? Only if the border is between schizophrenic and so bat**** insane we can't even begin to classify it.


The Gary Stu claim is worthless though. Yeah, he's powerful. Characters that have fallen in love with him? None. Unless you count the Hulk, and that's just creepy. Teams which he's suddenly become the leader of? None. And unless Jenkins is totally f'ing crazy, I don't think Sentry is his avatar character.

[chriskenny]

I think the best line up was the early Busiek-Perez run. It had just about every classic member but left a little room for one or two newbies. It hit a perfect balance.

The worst is probably what someone else said--- the '90's Avengers line-up, when Black Widow was the leader and the roster was always in flux. The Deathcry one. I think Harras wrote it and Epting drew it. Like the previous poster said, it was trying to emulate the X-Men dynamic too much and didn't want to be true to its own spirit. And the roster was just really blah.

Future Avengers lineup:
1. Captain America
2. Wolverine
3. Spider-Man
4. Iron Man
5. Ms. Marvel
6. Hulk
7. Hawkeye
8. Vision

[Jake V]

Borderline schizophrenic? Only if the border is between schizophrenic and so bat**** insane we can't even begin to classify it.
Hey, I was trying to be nice.

[Rich L]

2. Which team of Avengers was the worst?

The Lineup with Reed and Sue Richards on it.


Amen.

Captain America
Thor
Mr Fantastic
The Invisible Woman
Gilgamesh the Forgotten One

'You'll be surprised to see how long they last as a team' said the letters page.

Four issues.

And I was surprised they lasted that long!

The best line up - for me it's a toss-up between the team that was running when I started to get into the Avengers (although Starfox left before Namor joined and She-Hulk rejoined, I kind of count them all at the same time):

Wasp
Cap
Black Knight
Hercules
Starfox
Captain Marvel II
Namor
She-Hulk

...and the other potential is a team from one of the most dissed periods in Avengers history, but I happen to love it:

Black Knight
Crystal
Sersi
Black Widow
Vision
Hercules

I'm not counting Whackos here, but they have a few sweet line-ups too.

As for after Civil War, no matter what I'd like the team to look like, I'm sure they won't so I'm not even going to hazard a guess!

[Evil-Spidey]

3. What would you like the Avengers roster to be after Civil War?

captain america
spider-man
photon (genis-vell)
she-hulk
gravity
professor x
beta ray bill

now that would be new and fresh!

[roundman]

I'd like to see:

-Cap

-Iron Man

-Thor

-Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers)

-Juggernaut

-A female telepath / telekenetic (I can't really think of one that would fit at the moment. Jean Grey is dead, White Queen is on X-Men. Maybe Moondragon, but I never realy cared much for her. Any suggestions?)

-Dr. Strange (as a part time member/ consultant)

[Babylon23]

Best lineup - The team from Avengers Annual 10:

Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Wonder Man
Beast
Vision
Scarlet Witch
Ms. Marvel

Worst lineup - Toss up between the Harris years (the team with Deathcry) and the current New Avengers.

Future lineup - I'd like to see a return to the potential future laid out in Avengers Forever:

Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Scarlet Witch
Vision
Songbird
Jack of Hearts
Captain Marvel
Hawkeye

[JulianPerez]

Best lineup - The team from Avengers Annual 10:

Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Wonder Man
Beast
Vision
Scarlet Witch
Ms. Marvel

Hear-hear! Great choices, all. I'm a bigger Englehart fan than a Shooter fan, but that is one classy lineup just the same. The Vision and Scarlet Witch are born to be Avengers, as is Wonder Man and Ms. Marvel. Though I am disappointed you seem to have left off Hawkeye, the Wasp and Giant-Man.

And the Beast is much better as an Avenger. Then you get his trademark swashbucklery, like bad guys firing missiles at him and him saying "I tout I taw a putty tat!" and the Beast using tons of shampoo, and women surrounding him wanting a lock of his hair.

Though as much as I love Captain America, I would not include him on an Avengers team if it was up to me. The first is that Captain America's presence dominates the deam with his personality. Even Busiek seems to know this: Cap left the team after the second year of his run, and the Captain America that was in AVENGERS FOREVER was the uncertain Cap from Englehart's run.

Plus, it gives other characters a chance to assume the leadership role, which causes them to grow. Wanda, for instance, would make one great Avengers leader of the team proper; it would be finale of her transformation from the insecure girl seen in Thomas to the valiant woman seen in Englehart, to the confident person that she became under Busiek. Thor was one great chairman during the Englehart years, and Wasp showed she was all brains during the Roger Stern tenure.

Worst lineup - Toss up between the Harris years (the team with Deathcry) and the current New Avengers.

Hear-hear! I can imagine the people that now talk about how "great" the New Avengers is being the people that defended the X-menified Harras team ten years ago. The Bendis period is not one that history is going to look back on very fondly.

Future lineup - I'd like to see a return to the potential future laid out in Avengers Forever:

Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Scarlet Witch
Vision
Songbird
Jack of Hearts
Captain Marvel
Hawkeye

Great choices! They've got to get to the AVENGERS FOREVER team sooner or later, to be sure. And will somebody write the inevitable story featuring the return of Hawkeye?

[Dark Soul # 7]

Well if we go by the site from stillanerd´s first post the worst roster for the Avengers would have to be this one from #51, Goliath I, Hawkeye, Wasp.

The best was from Kurt Busiek´s run. Captain America, Iron man, Thor, Scalet Witch, Vision, Hawkeye, Ms.Marvel as acore members and Justice and Firestar as reserves. Can it get any more avengery/avengerish/avengerific?

[tangentman]

Hear-hear! I can imagine the people that now talk about how "great" the New Avengers is being the people that defended the X-menified Harras team ten years ago. The Bendis period is not one that history is going to look back on very fondly.

Actually, I didn't care much for the Harras team. Although I gave them a chance, I was one of those fans who thought them too "X-Menified". I disagree with you about the New Avengers; I think the current line-up gave a shake-up that was needed to pump new blood into the franchise. My only complaints with the roster are Wolverine, Ronin, and Sentry. I can live with Wolvie, feel glad that we haven't seen Ronin back, and think that Sentry can't get out of there fast enough.

[Bashful Benjamin]

My future team is:

Cap

Iron Man

Thor

Wasp

Luke Cage

Johnny Storm

Spiderwoman

[Zombienorthstar]

The lineup id like?

Captain America
Iron Man
Yellowjacket (not necessarily Hank Pym. Maybe Hank could sell this SHIELD and they could genetically engineer one of their agents with the Pym particle...it could be just a random SHIELD agent or an obscure one weve seen before say...Rigby Fallon- 100 points to who can guess who this is)
Namorita (not likely but the girl has the sass of namor while looking much better in a bathing suit. i think shed be a good love interest for Tony)
Firestar
Thor

[Haunt]

The lineup id like?

Captain America
Iron Man
Yellowjacket (not necessarily Hank Pym. Maybe Hank could sell this SHIELD and they could genetically engineer one of their agents with the Pym particle...it could be just a random SHIELD agent or an obscure one weve seen before say...Rigby Fallon- 100 points to who can guess who this is)
Namorita (not likely but the girl has the sass of namor while looking much better in a bathing suit. i think shed be a good love interest for Tony)
Firestar
Thor


i don't need to guess. he was Kitty Pryde's love interest (& fellow child prodigy) in her SHIELD series. of course i don't think Rigby's personality is suited to the Yellowjacket guise. he'd probably make a better ant-man than yellowjacket (imo).

[stormphoenix]

the best:- from the 70's

Vision
Iron Man
Wonder Man
Black Panther
Scarlet Witch
Wasp
Yellowjacket
Beast

The Worst - I have to agree, Simonson's run was pretty bad...(but this new team is very close.)

Captain America
Gilgamesh
Mr. Fantastic
Invisible Woman
Thor


Hope for the future: (seeing how there's supposed to be two teams, i'll lst them both):

Team 1:
Captain America - team leader

Thor - provided that he does return, if not Wonder man.

Monica Rambeau - takes back the name Photon, leaves that craptacular nextwave , and comes home to where she belongs...even becoming deputy leader for when cap's away.

Spider Man- after civil war i can see him and iron man parting ..but this could be a way of maturing hm further as the team's scientific brains. (as per PAD current direction in FNSM.

Firestar- i thought she was underused myself.

Triathlon- is a character that could provide depth, and tension , provided that he's not stereotyped as a angry mBalck man with a chip on his shoulder, blah , blah blah.

team II:

Iron man, team leader.

Cage- wil only join this team to provide for his new family, will co lead though with shellhead.

Ronin- if only to keep Daredevil off this title, to possibly romance Iron man

Ares - not sure how, but we do know he's joining one of the two teams....

Ms. Marvel - her association with the government will be called on here.

Ms johnson (megadeth) a daughter of one of the Avengers foes as a member? hmmm that sounds deliciously Evl...i love it!

[Zombienorthstar]

i don't need to guess. he was Kitty Pryde's love interest (& fellow child prodigy) in her SHIELD series. of course i don't think Rigby's personality is suited to the Yellowjacket guise. he'd probably make a better ant-man than yellowjacket (imo).


My god...your brain...i want it.

[Haunt]

My god...your brain...i want it.

well, normally i wouldn't be worried; but for the zombie in your name.

[Babylon23]

Hear-hear! Great choices, all. I'm a bigger Englehart fan than a Shooter fan, but that is one classy lineup just the same. The Vision and Scarlet Witch are born to be Avengers, as is Wonder Man and Ms. Marvel. Though I am disappointed you seem to have left off Hawkeye, the Wasp and Giant-Man.

Hey, you're right. I can't believe I left Hawkeye off the list. I could have sworn I'd added him. Hawkeye definitely belongs on that list. He's my second favourite Avenger (after the Scarlet Witch).

I agree with you about the Englehart era. The Serpent Crown Saga was the run that got me into the Avengers in the first place. My love of the Scarlet Witch stems directly from the work Englehart did with her.

And the Beast is much better as an Avenger. Then you get his trademark swashbucklery, like bad guys firing missiles at him and him saying "I tout I taw a putty tat!" and the Beast using tons of shampoo, and women surrounding him wanting a lock of his hair.

I agree wholeheartedly. I'd love to see a return of the happy-go-lucky Beast. Ever since he returned to the X-Men, he's spent most of his time depressed in the lab.

Plus, it gives other characters a chance to assume the leadership role, which causes them to grow. Wanda, for instance, would make one great Avengers leader of the team proper; it would be finale of her transformation from the insecure girl seen in Thomas to the valiant woman seen in Englehart, to the confident person that she became under Busiek.

I agree with you about Wanda. Unfortunately, Bendis had her go suddenly mad, undoing much of the great work Englehart and Busiek did with her. It'll be a long time before another writer can redeem her character and get her back to where she should be.

Great choices! They've got to get to the AVENGERS FOREVER team sooner or later, to be sure. And will somebody write the inevitable story featuring the return of Hawkeye?

As much as I'd love to see AF used as a basis for a future team, I doubt it'll happen any time soon. As for Hawkeye, I'd prefer they hold off on his return until we see a return of the classic Avengers.

[da_real_yellowjacket]

my wish list for the avengers line-up ::

captain america :: without cap it just doesn't FEEL like the avengers...y'know?

crimson dynamo :: i'm getting sick of stark and the cold war is way over. hell, i root for the russian hockey team if they aren't playing the usa :)

luke cage :: more luke, please.

iron fist :: much more danny rand, please.

yellowjacket :: love him, duh.

jack of hearts :: stark and pym seriously owe this guy and the writers owe him a break. a serious shot at redemption for jack would be great to follow in the book.

warbird :: cool character, lots-o-history.

rogue :: i'd like to have a mutant on the squad and the tension with warbird would be cool.

spiderwoman :: the most interesting character in new avengers so far

sunfire or silver samurai :: more international flavor and head butting with cap

[Haunt]

it's really hard to get a good lineup down. so instead i'm just going to make the backup team.

Avengers Beta Squad (SHIELD-detainees reserved for backup missions)
1. Aftershock (Daisy Johnson)
2. Marvel Boy (Noh-varr)
3. Super-Skrull (Kl'rt Ru'ssell)
4. Northstar (Jean-Paul Beaubier)
5. Silver Samurai (Kenuichio Harada)
6. Ant-Man (Eric O'Grady)

[Navdi]

Captain America
A staple character, a great leader and a tactician. Also, being relatively human, he fills in the everyman slot of the team.

Hawkeye
A good devil's advocate to Captain America, a good second-in-command with a healthy streak of to hell with the rules the rules -anarchism.

Captain Marvel (Genis Vell)
A true powerhouse. Also, a placeholder for the name "Captain Marvel" on Marvel's premiere team of superheroes.

Vision
Another big gun, with strong ties to the team's past.

Iron Man
A big gun, a scientific genius, a millionaire, and in addition, just a mortal, with a mortal man's problems.

Scarlet Witch
The go-to for all kinds of mystic weirdness.

Quicksilver
Every team needs a rogue mutant with a lousy attitude.

Spider-Woman
A ace-in-the-hole wildcard, with a wide range of abilities and ties to individuals, organizations and storylines.

[Nonentity]

Favorite team: The Busiek line-up, circa "Ultron Unlimited". This is the team that got me into the Avengers.

Worst Team: Haven't read enough to say.

Future Team:

Captain America
Spider-Man
Luke Cage
Thor
Ms. Marvel
Vision
Captain Marvel (Genis-Vell)

[Zombienorthstar]

Im taking another stab

Cap (Id play up the man out of our time ting with him. Hes moral and jsutified but id want his faith in humanity to get knocked all the time)

Iron Man (Id like to show more of the snarky businessman/playboy that he used to be. Id like him to have a mroe anti-establishment attitude

Firestar (Attitude, attitude attiude...shes a cool and she knows it...she has become disenchanted with the Avengers but has returned because Tony asked her to [there should be sexual tension between the two] which will hurt Justice when he inevitably turns up)

Hawkeye (Id like him to be a bit overzealous...to like chaos a bit too much...his 'death' has made him incredibly reckless. He just wants to bust some heads. Should be constantly trying to ge tin Angelicas pants)

Invisible Woman (not wearing a 4 for the first time in years she has come to the Avengers with her two kids...she feels like she has no direction but still cant help playing mother to the team)

Giant Man (because you need a genious and he looks very cool in battle)

[JulianPerez]

The Worst - I have to agree, Simonson's run was pretty bad...(but this new team is very close.)

Captain America
Gilgamesh
Mr. Fantastic
Invisible Woman
Thor

A lot of people think of the Simonson years poorly, and I think there is a reason for this. The first reason is that he was coming in right after Roger Stern, and that is one tough act to follow, for sure. The second is Simonson's treatment of Captain Marvel. Sure, Monica was a totally transparent Mary Sue, but she was a likeable and interesting Mary Sue with neat powers. Captain Marvel was not a bad leader and was never meant to be - having Simonson watch her mess up was downright ugly. And the loss of her powers was unnecessary and ugly - reading more like a "revenge fanfic." The third is Simonson's roster.

Many people point to the Fantastic Four members present as being the worst part of his roster. I don't agree - Steve Englehart was able to make lemonade with the lemons given to him by Byrne and Simonson and the rest, showing a team where the Thing was a smart, savvy leader of a Fantastic Four. And it was astonishing to watch Johnny, without Reed or Sue around, behave maturely. And the more said about the amazing She-Thing, Sharon Ventura, the better, and her wonderful love affair with Ben Grimm.

No, the member whose presence bugged me the most was Gilgamesh.

Not because Gilgamesh is a bad character. But because Kirby's ETERNALS is diminished by their presence in the Marvel Universe. In ETERNALS, they were a race of beings that were the inspiration for gods. Now that the REAL Norse and Greek gods of the MU exist, they become fakers. And by placing Gilgamesh in the Avengers, he goes from being THE FORGOTTEN ONE, the strongest mightiest hero ever, to being a strong guy in a universe of strong guys.

Hey, you're right. I can't believe I left Hawkeye off the list. I could have sworn I'd added him. Hawkeye definitely belongs on that list. He's my second favourite Avenger (after the Scarlet Witch).

Isn't Hawkeye...EVERYBODY'S favorite Avenger? :)

I agree with you about the Englehart era. The Serpent Crown Saga was the run that got me into the Avengers in the first place. My love of the Scarlet Witch stems directly from the work Englehart did with her.

Englehart's Avengers were the definitive Avengers, for sure (with great runners-up being Roy Thomas and Kurt Busiek). The single thing I love the best about Stainless Steve's Avengers is how he was able to have these long-term stories that paid off by regularly reading the book: the hints there was more to the Vision's origin than what we've seen, the Scarlet Witch learning magic, the pacifist Kree, the Swordsman and his quest for redemption, Two-Gun Kid and Hawkeye in the present, the Kang/Immortus/Rama Tut trilogy. Some books can very easily be split into TPBs - but I would argue the reason this treatment hasn't been given to Englehart's Avengers is because it just couldn't be done. Even a fairly simple one issue monster bash like the battle against the Star-Stalker had significance to the long-term story of the run. And the battle against the human bombs meant something for the long term development of the Scarlet Witch and Vision, too.

There was a list on an Avengers website of the 40 best Avengers stories. "Celestial Madonna" was #4. #4! Outrageous! And I don't think "Serpent Crown" even broke the top ten.

And Englehart's work on AVENGERS WEST COAST? I never thought he'd ever top his AVENGERS run.

Favorite team: The Busiek line-up, circa "Ultron Unlimited". This is the team that got me into the Avengers.

Agreed. And I especially love that Kurt got some use out of the Black Panther.

What is it about the Black Panther that he never gets any love from writers when he's on a team book? Roy Thomas pushed him in the background. And, with the exception of that time he leaped from a water tower to tackle Dr. Strange in "Avengers/Defenders War," Englehart never had him do anything cool either.

[Nonentity]

Isn't Hawkeye...EVERYBODY'S favorite Avenger? :)


Y'know, I'm going to stand up for my beliefs (and my desire to get lynched by the internet fandom) and say NO - Hawkeye is not everybody's favorite Avenger. Hawkeye is a stupidface. ;)



What is it about the Black Panther that he never gets any love from writers when he's on a team book? Roy Thomas pushed him in the background. And, with the exception of that time he leaped from a water tower to tackle Dr. Strange in "Avengers/Defenders War," Englehart never had him do anything cool either.

Well, Geoff Johns did get some mileage out of the Wakandan ruler during his "Red Zone" arc, though he made T'challa a bit too much of a pseudo-Batman type for my tastes.

[unkiedev]

Black Panther is too cool to be on a team. The guy is the good version of Dr. Doom: runs his own country, science genius, powerful.

If you have your own country to run, which by the way is far more technologically advanced then anyplace else, why would you want to go playing pajama police with a bunch of Americans?

[jpk]

Give me this pre-Disassembled team:

Cap
Iron Man
Thor
Hawkeye
Wasp
Vision
Scarlet Witch
She-Hulk

[Haunt]

Give me this pre-Disassembled team:

Cap
Iron Man
Thor
Hawkeye
Wasp
Vision
Scarlet Witch
She-Hulk


it could work; with some tweaks (art, costumes, characterizations). stale is always a bad thing.

Black Panther is too cool to be on a team. The guy is the good version of Dr. Doom: runs his own country, science genius, powerful.

If you have your own country to run, which by the way is far more technologically advanced then anyplace else, why would you want to go playing pajama police with a bunch of Americans?

ego stroke?

[JulianPerez]

Black Panther is too cool to be on a team. The guy is the good version of Dr. Doom: runs his own country, science genius, powerful.

While Christopher Priest's Black Panther run was pretty awesome, the only unsatisfying moments are the ones that slip too far in the "Squirrel Girl vs. Thanos" category. For instance, the flooring Mephisto with one punch was cool, but what sort of machine could steal Mephisto's powers, which are magical and cosmic in nature? They fudged it with some STAR TREK hand-waiving that one could imagine coming out of the mouth of Geordi La Forge about "altering the universal constants that his powers are continuous on." Which was about as satisfying and explanatory as it sounds like it is.

Overall, it was great that Priest took the Panther seriously and played him with dignity and majesty, but there were occasions this went too far. An...Anti-Galactus Plan? NO. Just NO.

If I had to guess, I would say the reason the Panther is seldom used in the Avengers is because his two great skills overlap with other characters that are more established. The Panther is a great super-agile athlete, yes, but so is Captain America, Hellcat, Mantis, the Beast, Mockingbird, the Black Widow, Tigra, Moon Knight, U.S. Agent, Julia Carpenter and the Falcon. The Panther is a great gadgeteer, but when Hank Pym and Iron Man are around, the Panther becomes a third wheel. This is why he tends to better in his solo book than in team books.

If you have your own country to run, which by the way is far more technologically advanced then anyplace else, why would you want to go playing pajama police with a bunch of Americans?

The reason the Panther originally became an Avenger was to spy on them, to see if they were a possible threat to Wakanda.

The reason he remains an Avenger is because they are his friends, and he chooses to stand by his friends, because the Panther is that kind of guy. That's why he belongs with the Avengers.

[Haunt]

While Christopher Priest's Black Panther run was pretty awesome, the only unsatisfying moments are the ones that slip too far in the "Squirrel Girl vs. Thanos" category. For instance, the flooring Mephisto with one punch was cool, but what sort of machine could steal Mephisto's powers, which are magical and cosmic in nature?



a machine similar to the one that Dr Doom used to breach Hell. or the one that Reed later swiped to go to Heaven and save the Thing. magic is just a very advanced form of science. it has laws that it conforms to. how else would Dr Strange learn it? i don't think it's any lamer than when Iron Man used his Destroyer armor against King Thor.


Overall, it was great that Priest took the Panther seriously and played him with dignity and majesty, but there were occasions this went too far. An...Anti-Galactus Plan? NO. Just NO.




we never got to see if his Anti-Galactus Plan worked. but it doesn't make sense to you that he'd at least attempt to form one? Galactus could eat the planet. all Priest was showing us is that Panther's skill is paranoia. he spends most of his time thinking up contingency plans. i'm cool with that. lot more believable than Doom's handy dandy [insert cosmic being name] pocket power siphoner; build right into his armor because that much energy can be held in the armor.

If I had to guess, I would say the reason the Panther is seldom used in the Avengers is because his two great skills overlap with other characters that are more established.



probably

[stormphoenix]

[QUOTE=JulianPerez]A lot of people think of the Simonson years poorly, and I think there is a reason for this. The first reason is that he was coming in right after Roger Stern, and that is one tough act to follow, for sure. The second is Simonson's treatment of Captain Marvel. Sure, Monica was a totally transparent Mary Sue, but she was a likeable and interesting Mary Sue with neat powers. Captain Marvel was not a bad leader and was never meant to be - having Simonson watch her mess up was downright ugly. And the loss of her powers was unnecessary and ugly - reading more like a "revenge fanfic." The third is Simonson's roster.

Many people point to the Fantastic Four members present as being the worst part of his roster. I don't agree - Steve Englehart was able to make lemonade with the lemons given to him by Byrne and Simonson and the rest, showing a team where the Thing was a smart, savvy leader of a Fantastic Four. And it was astonishing to watch Johnny, without Reed or Sue around, behave maturely. And the more said about the amazing She-Thing, Sharon Ventura, the better, and her wonderful love affair with Ben Grimm.

No, the member whose presence bugged me the most was Gilgamesh.

Not because Gilgamesh is a bad character. But because Kirby's ETERNALS is diminished by their presence in the Marvel Universe. In ETERNALS, they were a race of beings that were the inspiration for gods. Now that the REAL Norse and Greek gods of the MU exist, they become fakers. And by placing Gilgamesh in the Avengers, he goes from being THE FORGOTTEN ONE, the strongest mightiest hero ever, to being a strong guy in a universe of strong guys.

[QUOTE/]

good points all around Julian.
i have to say though, it was not just the handling of monica that did it for me, but the unfounded process of putting two characters of the same power levels on thew same squad (Thor and Gil), i thought is was redundant, personally.

now, as far as diminishing him as a presence, maybe that's a lil strong. remember , Sersi is also a member, and i thought she was a asset.

[Babylon23]

A lot of people think of the Simonson years poorly, and I think there is a reason for this. The first reason is that he was coming in right after Roger Stern, and that is one tough act to follow, for sure. The second is Simonson's treatment of Captain Marvel. Sure, Monica was a totally transparent Mary Sue, but she was a likeable and interesting Mary Sue with neat powers. Captain Marvel was not a bad leader and was never meant to be - having Simonson watch her mess up was downright ugly. And the loss of her powers was unnecessary and ugly - reading more like a "revenge fanfic." The third is Simonson's roster.

No, the member whose presence bugged me the most was Gilgamesh.

Not because Gilgamesh is a bad character. But because Kirby's ETERNALS is diminished by their presence in the Marvel Universe. In ETERNALS, they were a race of beings that were the inspiration for gods. Now that the REAL Norse and Greek gods of the MU exist, they become fakers. And by placing Gilgamesh in the Avengers, he goes from being THE FORGOTTEN ONE, the strongest mightiest hero ever, to being a strong guy in a universe of strong guys.

It's like your reading my mind. This is pretty much everything I remember thinking at the time. Gilgamesh was particularly annoying to me as well for this very reason.



Isn't Hawkeye...EVERYBODY'S favorite Avenger? :)

Second favourite for me, but it's close enough :)

Englehart's Avengers were the definitive Avengers, for sure (with great runners-up being Roy Thomas and Kurt Busiek). The single thing I love the best about Stainless Steve's Avengers is how he was able to have these long-term stories that paid off by regularly reading the book: the hints there was more to the Vision's origin than what we've seen, the Scarlet Witch learning magic, the pacifist Kree, the Swordsman and his quest for redemption, Two-Gun Kid and Hawkeye in the present, the Kang/Immortus/Rama Tut trilogy. Some books can very easily be split into TPBs - but I would argue the reason this treatment hasn't been given to Englehart's Avengers is because it just couldn't be done. Even a fairly simple one issue monster bash like the battle against the Star-Stalker had significance to the long-term story of the run. And the battle against the human bombs meant something for the long term development of the Scarlet Witch and Vision, too.

Agreed. Englehart set a standard on Avengers that clearly influenced and inspired the work of Stern, Shooter, Busiek and Michelenie.

There was a list on an Avengers website of the 40 best Avengers stories. "Celestial Madonna" was #4. #4! Outrageous! And I don't think "Serpent Crown" even broke the top ten.

Well, these lists are always subjective. However, I'd probably rank Celestial Madonna #3 behind Under Seige and the Kree-Skrull War. Did the Avengers/Defenders War make the list? That's another personal favourite of mine.

And Englehart's work on AVENGERS WEST COAST? I never thought he'd ever top his AVENGERS run.

Englehart's WCA run is much maligned, but I personally love it. The initial WCA/Vision and the Scarlet Witch crossover is one of my favourite stories, as is the Dominus/time travel story and the Zodiac story.

What is it about the Black Panther that he never gets any love from writers when he's on a team book? Roy Thomas pushed him in the background. And, with the exception of that time he leaped from a water tower to tackle Dr. Strange in "Avengers/Defenders War," Englehart never had him do anything cool either.

I don't think Thomas pushed him into the background that much. His first appearance in the book was a solo effort against the Grim Reaper. Thomas also gave us the BP origin issue, the Black Panther/Man-Ape issues, and the BP vs. the Sons of the Serpent storyline. I think each of these highlighted the BP quite well.

[Hombre]

Agreed. Englehart set a standard on Avengers that clearly influenced and inspired the work of Stern, Shooter, Busiek and Michelenie.


Couldn't agree more with you guys.
He's really developed the characters and fleshed out the team constantly for a long time, and he did so making comics that were poignant, enthralling and fun.


Did the Avengers/Defenders War make the list? That's another personal favourite of mine.


I loved it as well, it was a very charming initial effort at a gorgeous story with great scope and a large cast. Englehart progressed gradually, found his voice and then built up to the complex dual saga of the Celestial Madonna and the Origin of the Vision. And then started yet another bold chapter, taking the Beast aboard and embarking on another great multi-layered adventure.



I don't think Thomas pushed him into the background that much. His first appearance in the book was a solo effort against the Grim Reaper. Thomas also gave us the BP origin issue, the Black Panther/Man-Ape issues, and the BP vs. the Sons of the Serpent storyline. I think each of these highlighted the BP quite well.

Again, that's my opinion as well. He brought him into the team and devoted whole issues to him and his world. In general, I think he was handled well by both Englehart and Shooter. They understood that he was his own man and could never be a stereotype and that his great intelligence and the special abilities of his Panther God heritage could a decisive factor in winning the day.

They also realized that he had responsibilities to his Kingdom and that, at the time at least, he was one of the less powerful and more vulnerable members, and realistically took that into account.

[Ikaris]

My view:

Best
Black Panther, Captain America, Iron Man I, Scarlet Witch, Thor, Vision

Worst
Too diffucult...

Future
Any line-up that include Thor, Vision and Iron Man would have my vote as long as Wolverine and Spider-man is not in it (although it will propably not happen)

[tangentman]

JulianPerez: If it makes you feel better, Englehart had Black Panther play a crucial role in #115, when the team went iso the missing Black Knight. They encountered a subterranean tribe of troglodytes who attempted to kill the Avengers by feeding them to a giant insect. Mantis killed the insect and the chief of the tribe snuffed out all the torches to black out the underground caverns. The sub-humans would have the edge, since they'd adapted to moving in the darkness. T'Challa's keen senses allowed him to guide the Avengers to safety and take down the tribe. Black Panther saved the day and the Avengers went on to fight--then team up with--the Defenders.

[JulianPerez]

a machine similar to the one that Dr Doom used to breach Hell. or the one that Reed later swiped to go to Heaven and save the Thing. magic is just a very advanced form of science. it has laws that it conforms to. how else would Dr Strange learn it?

You are correct that the Doctor Doom gadgets that contact the Netherworld are very interesting concepts. But the fact that these pieces of equipment were good ideas, does not mean that the Panther's "Steal-Mephisto's-Powers-Ray" is a good one as well.

Something as important to the story as a machine that when you hit the switch turns the powers of a being as powerful as Mephisto OFF deserves something a little better of an explanation than the tissue thin tech hand-waiving that it received.

we never got to see if his Anti-Galactus Plan worked. but it doesn't make sense to you that he'd at least attempt to form one? Galactus could eat the planet. all Priest was showing us is that Panther's skill is paranoia. he spends most of his time thinking up contingency plans. i'm cool with that.

If it was a contingency plan in case Galactus ate the Earth for the people of Wakanda to be safe, that would be acceptable, and would characterize the Panther as someone who believes in being prepared (if it involves escape rockets, this would make sense in light of the fact that rockets made of vibranium would never go off course). However a Black Panther victory over Galactus is so unreasonable a conclusion that there is no way it is beliveable.

i have to say though, it was not just the handling of monica that did it for me, but the unfounded process of putting two characters of the same power levels on thew same squad (Thor and Gil), i thought is was redundant, personally.

Really? Thor's uniqueness in terms of power level is one of the things that gives him his niche as an Avenger - I'm reminded of the battle with Count Nefaria where the Count was going through the Avengers like crap through a goose, all the while shouting for THOR. Come and face me, THOR! And when Thor finally DID show up...wow.

Then again, there have been many great moments with Thor and Hercules on the same team, notably the Busiek run where the two. The two characters are different enough in terms of personality that there is no way the two characters would step on one another's toes.

now, as far as diminishing him as a presence, maybe that's a lil strong. remember , Sersi is also a member, and i thought she was a asset.

While I like Sersi as a character in the context of Kirby's ETERNALS, however, she is not the best choice for an Avenger because of her power of molecular manipulation.

Now, granted, there have been lots of great Avengers with ultra-high power levels like Thor and Monica Rambeau, but both of these have powers that are very visual and benefit the story. When fighting someone like Sersi, one is left to wonder why the fights aren't over before they begin.

Also, Sersi has always been characterized as being a fun-loving party person, flighty and easily bored, and this is not entirely compatible with the discipline and altruism that is required to be an Avenger.

Well, these lists are always subjective. However, I'd probably rank Celestial Madonna #3 behind Under Seige and the Kree-Skrull War. Did the Avengers/Defenders War make the list? That's another personal favourite of mine.

I don't really remember, let me see if I can find the link.

Englehart's WCA run is much maligned, but I personally love it. The initial WCA/Vision and the Scarlet Witch crossover is one of my favourite stories, as is the Dominus/time travel story and the Zodiac story.

Oh, hear-hear!

Englehart's West-Coast/East-Coast War was one of the best team vs. team battles ever! A highlight of a magnificent run. It was able to create an illusion that only really great writers can do, which is making us forget that the characters will come out safe and sound from this because it's THEIR book. The odds were so against the heroes that one seriously wonders how they would emerge victorious. And when Tigra and others started to actually die, that showed Steve's greatest strength, his unpredictability, his ability to create a sense that anything can happen. This was especially true when it appeared that the Grandmaster had WON Death's powers.

And while I love Jim Shooter to death (everything from his LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES to NEW UNIVERSE was a real treat) Michael/Korvac showed a thousand times more personality when he was a part of Englehart's Legion of the Unliving, sitting in his chair, slightly annoyed by the Surfer's presence, having a cup of tea...wicked.

Really, I sincerely wish Steve stayed on that book longer. Because he "nailed" the Wasp/Hank Pym relationship when he had the Wasp "caught" by Hank Pym, who

Firebird was a great, loveable Avengers ingenue. Hank Pym was never better. The Zodiac made for magnificent villains.

JulianPerez: If it makes you feel better, Englehart had Black Panther play a crucial role in #115, when the team went iso the missing Black Knight. They encountered a subterranean tribe of troglodytes who attempted to kill the Avengers by feeding them to a giant insect. Mantis killed the insect and the chief of the tribe snuffed out all the torches to black out the underground caverns. The sub-humans would have the edge, since they'd adapted to moving in the darkness. T'Challa's keen senses allowed him to guide the Avengers to safety and take down the tribe. Black Panther saved the day and the Avengers went on to fight--then team up with--the Defenders.

Englehart realized that one of the things that best defines the Panther as an Avenger are his super-senses. Super-athletes are common, but super-hearing and tracking and so forth are slightly rarer.

Busiek did much the same thing when it was his turn to write the Black Panther - he got a lot of mileage out of the Panther's senses.

And I really loved Busiek's idea that the Quinjets are manufactured in Wakanda, since the license was passed on by Stark-Fujikawa.

It's a little thing, but it made the Marvel Universe feel more real.

[tangentman]

Yes, the Wakandan Quinjet factory was totally plausible and an adept way to bring Black Panther into the story. I was impressed with Busiek's handling of Panther in the Ultron story! T'Challa showed intelligence, cunning, and smooth moves--the scenes which really come to mind are T'Challa stalking Alkema in his first scene, then Panther saving Firestar from a suicidal face-off against Alkema. There was such tension in that last scene--there was no guarantee that Firestar wouldn't die and Panther leaping to pull her out of a death-blast's way was just too cool!

[Haunt]

If it was a contingency plan in case Galactus ate the Earth for the people of Wakanda to be safe, that would be acceptable, and would characterize the Panther as someone who believes in being prepared (if it involves escape rockets, this would make sense in light of the fact that rockets made of vibranium would never go off course). However a Black Panther victory over Galactus is so unreasonable a conclusion that there is no way it is beliveable.


didn't a bunch of zombies just take him out?

[da_real_yellowjacket]

...that means we all agree any great avengers line up must include englehart? count me in on that :) i'm too weak a typist to do his impact justice and you've all nailed it anyhoo. cool :D

[Hombre]

And while I love Jim Shooter to death (everything from his LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES to NEW UNIVERSE was a real treat) Michael/Korvac showed a thousand times more personality when he was a part of Englehart's Legion of the Unliving, sitting in his chair, slightly annoyed by the Surfer's presence, having a cup of tea...wicked.


Don't underestimate the raw power and lasting influence of Jim's run from #158-171.

The Trial, Beware the Ant Man, the Bride of Ultron, the Nefaria trilogy... the completely adult and realistic tone of the traumatic struggles the team experiences from within and without in that period represents the perfect, taut, powerful climax of years and years of work by Stan, Roy, Steve and Gerry into making the Avengers, to quote Busiek himself, the spiritual figurehead of Marvel comics.

[Babylon23]

It's not hard to see why Englehart is held in such high regard. Under Englehart, a lot of the Avengers really came into their own. The Vision, Scarlet Witch, the Beast, the Swordsman. Also, Englehart took the "Avengers epic" formula established by Roy Thomas in Kree-Skrull and ran with it, giving us a progression of "big" storylines (Avengers/Defenders, Celestial Madonna, the Serpent Crown). The book really came into it's own under his writing.

Overall, I'd say there was an excellent progression of writers on Avengers from the mid-60's to the late 80's. Thomas - Englehart - Shooter - Michelinie - Shooter - Stern. This really was an excellent period for Avengers fans.

[mandog]

My dream team would be

Captain America
Iron Man
Hulk
Thor
Goliath
Hawkeye
Quicksilver

[Steven F.]

Best

Black Widow - Leader
Crystal
Sersi
Black Knight
Hercules
Deathcry
Vision
Thor - Eric Masterson
Giant-Man - Pym

Worst:

Captain America
Iron Man
Spider-Man
Wolverine
Sentry
Spider-Woman I
Ronin
Luke Cage

[Harold of the Rocks]

My team line up for Avengers would be

Slapstick
Steel Spider
Frog-Man
Razorback
Squirrel Girl
NFL SuperPro

Come on. Isn't it time for a new Assistant Editor's month?????Just when I though Haunt posted the worst possible team. The question is favorite Avengers team not Scavengers team... with bottom-feeders like this, you should lead the team in your costumed identity as The Carp. Complete with barbels (not barbells). The only problem is everyone on that team sucks (fecal matter), so The Carp might go hungry!! ;)

[Coolrush]

the best:
the Busiek/Perez Avengers
Cap
Iron Man
Thor
Warbird
Hawkeye
Scarlett Witch
Vision

the Worst:
Wasp, goliath, Ms. Marvel, Scarlett Witch, Triathlon, iron Man, vision

Not really because of the roster ( though I only really like Iron Man and Ms. Marvel out of this whole group)but because how they were formed.

My dream Avengers:
Captain America
Iron Man
Warbird/Ms. Marvel
Spider-Man
Sersi
She-Hulk
Hawkeye

i would really like Spidey to stay an Avenger after Civil War but that seems more and more unlikely. :(

[Haunt]

Just when I though Haunt posted the worst possible team. The question is favorite Avengers team not Scavengers team... with bottom-feeders like this, you should lead the team in your costumed identity as The Carp. Complete with barbels (not barbells). The only problem is everyone on that team sucks (fecal matter), so The Carp might go hungry!! ;)


this coming from the guy who liked Tracer and the Hydra Avengers. talk about scavenging. :rolleyes:

[Alan2099]

Just when I though Haunt posted the worst possible team. The question is favorite Avengers team not Scavengers team... with bottom-feeders like this, you should lead the team in your costumed identity as The Carp. Complete with barbels (not barbells). The only problem is everyone on that team sucks (fecal matter), so The Carp might go hungry!! ;)
You know, I can actually see this team working for a story arc. Have them be the last ditch effort and trained by a seasoned Avenger (preferrably Cap) and you could have a story.

... which is basically what they did in Marvel Team-Up not too long ago, but the whole team of losers idea never gets old.

[Babylon23]

Best lineup:

I love the team from Avengers Annual 10:

Cap
Iron Man
Hawkeye
Beast
Vision
Scarlet Witch
Thor
Wonder Man
Ms Marvel

Worst lineup:

the 90's team
Black Knight
Crystal
Sersi
Black Widow
Vision
Hercules

and the New Avengers

Cap
Iron Man
Sentry
Cage
Spider-Man
Spider-Woman
Echo

Dream Team:

Classic Avengers
Cap
Iron Man
Thor
Hawkeye
Vision
Scarlet Witch
Beast
Wonder Man

[Ogre U AHole]

I haven't really read enough old school Avengers to say or know what the best or worst teams are but the team I immediately associate with Avengers is my first appearance of them from an Erik Larsen Amazing Spider-Man issue where it was Captain America, Thor, Vision, Quasar, Sersi, She-Hulk, and Black Widow.

My dream teams after the presumed split would feature Cap leading a visually old school/heritage type team echoing back to the original inception of the team and old Marvel hero-types:

Captain America
Thor
Wasp
She-Hulk
Namorita (She's a clone so re-clone her or something)
Human Torch (Johnny Storm)
and maybe Daredevil to make the one-on-one match-ups with the other team fill out

The other team is basically my favorite non-mutant Marvel heroes:

Iron Man
Ms. Marvel
Black Cat
The Thing
Spider-Man
Firestar
Ronin (not really a favorite but I find her intriguing and every team needs a mysterious character.)

And lastly a team of Bendis super-friends featured in a one-shot, all splash page, no dialogue issue getting slaughtered by a mind-controlled Great Lakes Avengers..

Luke Cage
Jessica Jones
Spider-Woman
Wolverine
The Sentry
and "This Michael", The Collective

Ahhhhh... that's some high-quality Haterade. Drink up, b**ches! It's a celebration! :p

[Deadpooligan]

I'm enjoying New Avengers a lot now, I don't see where some of you guys' criticisms fall though. Sure, the team was thrown together quickly (almost TOO quickly) but how they came together fighting dozens of villains in the Raft was great.

And about the Sentry, he was created to be very silver-age in design: the unexplained limits of his powers, a simple and effective costume w/cape, etc. He has serious potential as a hero now, and I think he's a much better substitute for Thor in Thor's absence. (I just wish they'd get his help more; it was cool when they fought the new Super-Adaptoid.) I also find his character development to be great. There aren't many superheroes who can stoop to a normal guy's level and see a psychiatrist about their inner voids (ha ha, double meaning!).

Echo/Ronin, though. I have no idea what she's doing right now. It's been like 8 months since Japan. Oh great, we have a deaf ninja on our team who can mimic actions. Wait... I remember someone who can do that. TASKMASTER.

(Oh yeah, and what's Marvel's deal with bringing back used up Daredevil characters? Now Nuke's back apparently.)

I probably wouldn't have chosen Luke Cage to be on the team at all. He's a very street and unorthodox hero. And the repowering retcon of Spider-Woman was very cheap. I like Ms. Marvel though. Never had a problem with her as a support member.

My favorite team however has to be the iconic group of Avengers done by Busiek and Perez.

[shaunyc56]

I'm in the minority, but I like the New Avengers, except for Wolverine. Not because I don't like Wolverine, I just don't think he should be an Avenger. Now if you remove Wolverine, add Quake and Black Panther I will be happy. I think that for a good team dynamic you need some people the other teammates don't trust (Quake) and will kill in the neccesary situations (Panther). I also like the idea of a monarch on the team. I wish there was a team of Monarchs, like the Council of Kings thing in house of M. They face different challenges and have much more responsibility than those who fancy themselves kings (Tony Stark).

[hogman_tim]

OK I have been buying Avengers for ever, yes I got the whole set, and I'm not talking reprints here, so here's my fan favorites.

Love the first team big time.

Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Giant man, Goliath or what ever
Wasp

But lets add:

Hawkeye
Hercules
Ms. Marvel

Now thats my Avengers

[Siddon]

Best - Thomas's Avengers up to before the Kree-Skrull war

Worst- Johns/Austen had a bad team

ideal
anti
Captain America
Sue Storm
Ben Grimm
Sentry
Spider-woman
Daredevil

pro
Iron Man
Luke Cage
Spider-man
Quicksilver
Mrs. Marvel
Songbird

[jade_nova]

I think the worst lineup is the New Avenges lineup because not everyone is being used and the choice of members. Wolverine will always be viewed as X-Men, Spider-Man needed a better reason to be on the team, and after months of hype and whatnot Ronin is in one story. I do enjoy the choice of Luke Cage and Spider-Woman on the team.

A lineup that I would like to see is based on the original lineup.
The members are:
She-Hulk
Wasp
War Machine
Scott Lang or the new Ant-Man
Thunderstrike or Beta Ray Bill

[tnklb]

My dream line up would pull an X-Men and divide the Avengers into 2 teams. One to be a FACE superhero team for the public to cheer on, and one meant for black ops, dirty work.

If I were doing Avengers, I'd do two teams. One made of well known faces, to be superheroes for the world to cheer, and a covert, black ops teams for the dirty work (this was supposedly Wolverine's role in New Avengers):

face team:
Captain America
Iron Man
Spider-Man
Storm
Black Panther
Ms. Marvel

covert team:
Nick Fury
Hulk
Luke Cage
Moon Knight
Wolverine

This doesn't really take Civil War into consideration.. sorry bout that.. just my dream team(s).

[shaunyc56]

My dream line up would pull an X-Men and divide the Avengers into 2 teams. One to be a FACE superhero team for the public to cheer on, and one meant for black ops, dirty work.

If I were doing Avengers, I'd do two teams. One made of well known faces, to be superheroes for the world to cheer, and a covert, black ops teams for the dirty work (this was supposedly Wolverine's role in New Avengers):

face team:
Captain America
Iron Man
Spider-Man
Storm
Black Panther
Ms. Marvel

covert team:
Nick Fury
Hulk
Luke Cage
Moon Knight
Wolverine

This doesn't really take Civil War into consideration.. sorry bout that.. just my dream team(s).



I like the idea of a covert team.... Hulk in a covert role is either going to be amazing or .......

[tnklb]

Yeah it kinda hinges on how much control Banner has...