Young Avengers #11 Review w/ minor spoilers

[Tony Starkz]

I can't believe there's only 1 issue left.After everything that happens in this one,I cannot see how everything will be tied up in just 1 issue.What an amazing read this was.Revelations galore.Tommy,Billy,and Hulking's origins all come out in the open.Something bad happens to one of our beloved heroes.Super Skrull reveals his true motivations.The New Avengers show up with the Sentry in tow and all hell breaks loose.The final spread was amazing as well.I hope Allan didn't have to cut out anything really good since this was supposed to be a 6 parter.Book of the week!

10/10

[I-M-F]

UK don't get there comics till Thursday, and then I have to wait a day for the issue to arrive on my door mat.

Sounds like a good read.

[Dark Soul # 7]

I´ll have to buy it when I visit USA next week.
And many other comics.

[Young Avenger]

I can easily see Eli getting powers after the end of this issue. He story from YA #3 will probably come true now. The left of the issue was amazing. I'm sad to see this excellent book go. I guess I have New Avengers #18 and Civil War Young Avengers/Runaways will provide my YA fix.

[moon knight]

i enjoyed it alot. i hope eli doesnt stay mortally wounded in the next issue

[Tony Starkz]

I can easily see Eli getting powers after the end of this issue. He story from YA #3 will probably come true now. The left of the issue was amazing. I'm sad to see this excellent book go. I guess I have New Avengers #18 and Civil War Young Avengers/Runaways will provide my YA fix.

Great theory.

[riotgear]

What was the Super-Skrull's true motivations?

[The Purple Skull]

I can easily see Eli getting powers after the end of this issue. He story from YA #3 will probably come true now. The left of the issue was amazing. I'm sad to see this excellent book go. I guess I have New Avengers #18 and Civil War Young Avengers/Runaways will provide my YA fix..
To further the theory, I think Eli might get a blood transfusion from Cap. All in all, a great issue. 10/10

[tunasammiches]

Wait....this book is ending??? Wha wha whaaaat??? Why?!

[Skute]

it's not ending it's just going on hiatus until 2007

[SpartanX]

it's not ending it's just going on hiatus until 2007
will it continue as #13 or begin anew as #1?

[StoneGold]

will it continue as #13 or begin anew as #1?
I believe they're doing a "second season" deal. Although Runaways/Young Avengers will be coming out in the interim.

[Xanrn]

Bloody confusing issue was what this was.

Timeline seems out of whack especially for William and Thomas, 16 years since the debacle of Wanda and her Demon Kids?

[davros42]

Point of order:
Mephisto didn't reclaim the souls that Scarlet Witch found, Master Pandemonium did. (or did Mephisto then reclaim them from Master Pandemonium and they're just ommiting a step? It's been a long time since Avengers West Coast)

Other than that, great issue.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Bloody confusing issue was what this was.

Timeline seems out of whack especially for William and Thomas, 16 years since the debacle of Wanda and her Demon Kids?

Souls... magic, stuff they refered to in Avengers Disassembled (featuring a Kree fleet, not a bunch of Kree infants) so who is to say how these lost souls were formed? Why as babies? This requires little imagination when involving magic so heavily, as I see it.

[Atom_basher]

Can i plz have a full issue recap

[garin]

Best book of the week. Great, great issue.

[StoneGold]

Point of order:
Mephisto didn't reclaim the souls that Scarlet Witch found, Master Pandemonium did. (or did Mephisto then reclaim them from Master Pandemonium and they're just ommiting a step? It's been a long time since Avengers West Coast)

Other than that, great issue.
Yeah, the second one. But it's not really worth mentioning that Master P was being set up as a patsy by Mephisto. In the long run, it's unecessary info.

[Keith_Martineau]

Is anyone else totally confused?

Okay, Wanda constructed kids and used souls that were actually demons.

These kids did not...survive?

Avengers: Dissassembled said these kids never existed, and that Agatha Harkness had been dead for a very long time, animated by Wanda's powers.

But the kids are alive despite their souls being demons or...what?
That part was not very well explained for those of us not up on our Avengers history.

Oh, and when did Captain Marvel and the Skrull Princess have time to knock boots? I bought the Kree-Skrull War TPB specifically to see how this might have gone down, and discovered that there really was very little opportunity for them to have stolen a moment like that with Marv having to work on that contraption in order to save Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver.
The Super-Skrull impersonating him helps, but that calls in to question exactly when in the original story we were seeing the real Marv vs. the Super-Skrull Marv.
Ugh...so confusing.
Beyond that, great issue.

[Sheldon]

Does YA take place prior to House of M or after?

[Keith_Martineau]

I'm guessing the first arc is pre-HoM and the second two arcs are post-HoM. That seems the most plausible, even though it's never been explicitly stated.

[Beast]

I'm guessing the first arc is pre-HoM and the second two arcs are post-HoM. That seems the most plausible, even though it's never been explicitly stated.
From what I understand, the whole series thru #12 are pre-HoM.

[Keith_Martineau]

From what I understand, the whole series thru #12 are pre-HoM.

I suppose it doesn't really matter since HoM doesn't effect this.
The Scarlet Witch's important contributions to this are pretty much pre-A:D.

Anyway, can somebody give me some insight into my above questions?

[Jack]

Can i plz have a full issue recap
Well, I wrote one out, but then I lost the bloody thing. So no, sorry.
Is anyone else totally confused?

Okay, Wanda constructed kids and used souls that were actually demons.

These kids did not...survive?Unsurprisingly, considering their history, I think this is a retcon. According to Vision's files they were "lost souls".

Although I wonder how they can really be called the Scarlet Witch's children. Not genetically, since presumably they're in the bodies of other children. Not spiritually, since they were lost souls or something originally. She didn't raise them, or anything. Effectively all she did was give them powers. At least until the next issue reveals something else, I guess.

[garin]

Is anyone else totally confused?

Okay, Wanda constructed kids and used souls that were actually demons.

These kids did not...survive?

Avengers: Dissassembled said these kids never existed, and that Agatha Harkness had been dead for a very long time, animated by Wanda's powers.

But the kids are alive despite their souls being demons or...what?
That part was not very well explained for those of us not up on our Avengers history.

I think what was said in Disassembled still stands as far as what the characters believe. It's an area where pretty much nobody seems to know the full story.

According to the issue-

The twins were lost souls, twisted into the shape of her children by Wanda's powers. This twistedness meant they couldn't be absorbed by Mephisto, and so he was destroyed. The twins were believed destroyed in the same event, along with Wanda's memory of them.

However, Billy believes that when Mephisto was destroyed the souls were set free (albeit obviously still twisted into the Witch's children) and found new homes.

There are obviously still a lot of unanswered questions about the twins ages and the timing of things, and we don't even know if Billy is right - there could be a twist coming. For now, it works well enough for me.

[Gaz]

Well, I wrote one out, but then I lost the bloody thing. So no, sorry.Unsurprisingly, considering their history, I think this is a retcon. According to Vision's files they were "lost souls".

Although I wonder how they can really be called the Scarlet Witch's children. Not genetically, since presumably they're in the bodies of other children. Not spiritually, since they were lost souls or something originally. She didn't raise them, or anything. Effectively all she did was give them powers. At least until the next issue reveals something else, I guess.
I'm thinking it's a Perez Wonder Woman thing. Wanda moulded the souls into Billy and Tommy, so even after they went kerpoof, they maintained the form/identity she gave them.

[bfrank]

I could deal with the twins, it was the the Kree-Skrull thing....isn't Marvel still on a 10-12 year time line?

[Gaz]

I could deal with the twins, it was the the Kree-Skrull thing....isn't Marvel still on a 10-12 year time line?
Growth accelerator, time machine, he's an alien, he's an alien crossbreed, take thy pick.

[StoneGold]

What is it with Vells and age acceleration? Because Teddy's half-brother got accelerated also.

[Xanrn]

I don't really see how it could be all 12 Issues are pre-HoM, admitelly its been delayed every issue.

Anyone pinpointed exactly where HoM happens in NA, I heard inbetween 13 and 14 because the clothes Cap and Spiderina wearing change.

But the Avengers were on Genosha when Wanda went Nova and HoM 8 deals with them coming back.

I would say HoM was inbetween the time they broke up after Iron Lad committed temporal suicide/murder.

[Keith_Martineau]

House of M officially happens between the Sentry, and Ronin arcs of New Avengers. It can't happen between Ronin and the Spiderwoman arc because those occur within about a 48 hour continuous period.

As for Young Avengers, Sidekicks obviously happens before any part of New Avengers. The second and current arc all seem to happen within a couple of days time as well, but we do know that a lot of time passed between Sidekicks and the second arc. It has to have taken place after the Sentry arc, because the Sentry is part of the NA now.
It could still potentially be before HoM, but I have a feeling it's after, and HoM simply didn't effect the YA at all. I have a feeling the next issue will end in such a way as to lead in to the Runaways/YA Civil War tie-in, which would put it after HoM by default.

[Pseudodragon]

Can i plz have a full issue recap

The issue picks up with the Kree soldiers having taken the Super-Skrull down. The Kree leader tells Teddy he's the son of Mar-Vell and a Skrull Princesss. The Kree soldiers are here to conscript Teddy into their army. Teddy says no way and a fight breaks out. The kids grab the Super Skrull and run away by hijacking te Kree ship. Super Skrull reveals a bit more about Teddy's origin and that leads into the whole Tommy and Billy thing discussed here already.

They get close to landing when more Skrulls and Kree show up shooting, with both sides trying to get Teddy. Teddy tries to jump in between them to get them to stop, and the Avengers show up to try to sort everything out. Cap says he's not letting anyone take Teddy sp one of the Kree tries to shoot Cap, Eli takes the bullet for him and we get the big fight splash page at the end.

[Young Avenger]

As for Young Avengers, Sidekicks obviously happens before any part of New Avengers. The second and current arc all seem to happen within a couple of days time as well, but we do know that a lot of time passed between Sidekicks and the second arc. It has to have taken place after the Sentry arc, because the Sentry is part of the NA now.
It could still potentially be before HoM, but I have a feeling it's after, and HoM simply didn't effect the YA at all. I have a feeling the next issue will end in such a way as to lead in to the Runaways/YA Civil War tie-in, which would put it after HoM by default.

I know for sure in the second arc took place a couple of weeks after the first arc. Perphaps during those weeks is when the New Avengers formed and House of M happened.

[Keith_Martineau]

I know for sure in the second arc took place a couple of weeks after the first arc. Perphaps during those weeks is when the New Avengers formed and House of M happened.

I suppose that works. Breakout was only supposed to have happened over the course of 3 days, and the Sentry arc no more than a week later. Xavier coulda shown up a few days after that. And in the grand scheme, HoM only took a few minutes. So the second arc coulda been only a few weeks apart.

So if you stop and look at it, the way this all breaks down, we have:
Avengers: Dissassembled
Secret War
(6 months after A:D )
Sidekicks
Breakout
Sentry
Second YA Arc (whatever it was called)
Family Ties (isn't that what the current arc is called?)
HoM
Ronin
Spiderwoman
various Spiderman arcs between those
The Collective (current NA arc)
Road to Civl War arcs
Civil War

Thats a lot of story, but if the timelines are to be believed, all of it pretty much within the course of two to three months MU time, at least after A:D. Thats CRAZY fast. All of that crap going down, no wonder it boils over into Civil War. Everything has happened so fast and people think they're in control, and they just aren't.

Anyway, people have helped with the Scarlet Witch/Thomas/Billy question. What are peoples take on the Kree-Skrull War, and the notion that Captain Marvel and the Skrull Princess had time to conceive a child?

[Faded]

Pretty good issue.

Honestly, I wish the origins would've been left at what they were originally. I can't say that I'm pleased with what I would call messy. Still a great issue and series though. Art was lovely as ever and dialogue was awesome.

Buuut, I can't buy Hullkling so easily sweeping aside the fact that the Super Skrull killed his mother. It was just...wrong.

[Volk1]

This issue was f-u-n!

I always love it when the action and plot of a story adds up just right. Makes for a solid read.

The whole Tommy/Billy brothers thing doesn't bother me too much. But I still never understood how Vision could have had kids with Wanda...if someone could explain that to me, I'd be greatly obliged... :)

[RonnieThunderbolts]

This issue was f-u-n!

I always love it when the action and plot of a story adds up just right. Makes for a solid read.

The whole Tommy/Billy brothers thing doesn't bother me too much. But I still never understood how Vision could have had kids with Wanda...if someone could explain that to me, I'd be greatly obliged... :)

Sure...

Using the improbability powers of her Hex energy, and drawing on magics Wanda and Vision became pregnant with twin boys. Originally, the boys began to disappear on their nannies, because Wanda wasn't thinking about them, and then Master Pandemonium stole them away, tricked by Mephisto into kidnapping them by telling him they would replace his missing limbs. Mephisto reclaimed them as shards of his soul, and as we've learned in the new issue, things go on from there.

[Volk1]

Sure...

Using the improbability powers of her Hex energy, and drawing on magics Wanda and Vision became pregnant with twin boys. Originally, the boys began to disappear on their nannies, because Wanda wasn't thinking about them, and then Master Pandemonium stole them away, tricked by Mephisto into kidnapping them by telling him they would replace his missing limbs. Mephisto reclaimed them as shards of his soul, and as we've learned in the new issue, things go on from there.

Thanks ronnie. That helps. I thought they did it the more "natural" way, which I could never figure out since Vision was a robot and all....this helps a bunch....

[StoneGold]

Speaking of which, you have to love the moment when the boys ask who their father is, and Vision goes, "According to the files it was MEEEEEKaboom!!!"


Now that gets creepy.

[ocelotrevs]

An absolutely brilliant issue, it's one of those that you race through, just so you can read it again (I saw someone on the bus reading it as well)
I can't believe how much happened. But why did Patriot jump infront of Cap, I know he'll turn out alright. But still.

[Gaz]

Speaking of which, you have to love the moment when the boys ask who their father is, and Vision goes, "According to the files it was MEEEEEKaboom!!!"


Now that gets creepy.
Think that's awkward, how about the family reunion they're gonna have in YA/Runaways? :D

[Gaz]

An absolutely brilliant issue, it's one of those that you race through, just so you can read it again (I saw someone on the bus reading it as well)
I can't believe how much happened. But why did Patriot jump infront of Cap, I know he'll turn out alright. But still.
He saw a guy getting shot at, he saved him. He's a superhero, part of the job. :)

[ocelotrevs]

He saw a guy getting shot at, he saved him. He's a superhero, part of the job. :)
That is true. But Cap has that totally awesome shield, that's indestructable.
Maybe, Cap and Patriots blood type'd be the same, so they have a transfusion and then you got your own little super soldier.

[Violently Apathetic]

An absolutely brilliant issue, it's one of those that you race through, just so you can read it again (I saw someone on the bus reading it as well.

Which London do you live in, England or Ontario? If it's the latter that could have been me :p

[ocelotrevs]

Which London do you live in, England or Ontario? If it's the latter that could have been me :p

Nah it's the England version.

[Tony Starkz]

I hope Volume 2 will be a regular ongoing.A series this good deserves longevity.

[jadegiant77]

ten bucks says Eli gets a blood transfusion from Cap.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

ten bucks says Eli gets a blood transfusion from Cap.

Man, I hope you win the $10. I really do!

[Tony Starkz]

ten bucks says Eli gets a blood transfusion from Cap.

Or better yet,his grandaddy.

Anyone notice Iron Man not being in the final 2 page spread?Perhaps he immediately went to go notify Eli's grandparents of what transpired.

[Stagier]

okokok,
Now Bishop's got the money and resources to make Pym JR a suit out of unstable molecules, but can't upgrade them to x-men class bulletproof gear?

Otherwise loved this issue, the twin thing made total sense, until i got here, and now am utterly confused again. Just as confused by the way you can still see Spiderwoman's belly button through her uniform. Must be SOME outie.

So technically Billy and Tommy aren't twins; physically, they just look a like born of two different parent sets. But their souls are connected.

Segway-ing how old is Luna? haven't been reading son of M. She should be friggin' 20 if these two are as old as they are.

[StoneGold]

okokok,
Now Bishop's got the money and resources to make Pym JR a suit out of unstable molecules, but can't upgrade them to x-men class bulletproof gear?

.
I doubt bulletproof would do much good against Kree zap gun. Given that it doesn't fire bullets.

Segway-ing how old is Luna? haven't been reading son of M. She should be friggin' 20 if these two are as old as they are.

Much like Teddy, something wacky is probably going on with their ages. Which I believe was said a few times in the thread already.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Or better yet,his grandaddy.

Anyone notice Iron Man not being in the final 2 page spread?Perhaps he immediately went to go notify Eli's grandparents of what transpired.

Wouldn't be a good idea. His grandfather's serum is tainted, and caused his cognitive faculties to diminish over time. It would only end with Eli eventually having the same mental deficiencies a few years down the road, and that would bite. Now, Steve Rogers' serum, or even the tweaked serum in Eli's uncle Josiah's veins would be a better bet.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Segway-ing how old is Luna? haven't been reading son of M. She should be friggin' 20 if these two are as old as they are.

Uh, no. They CANNOT be 15 and naturally aged, CAN NOT. Franklin is older than them. Franklin is older than Luna, and he's 8. 8! So Teddy, Billy and Tommy all need some reasoning for their accelerated aging, or this seriously destroys the shared Marvel Universe timeline.

To be fair, Luna should be quite young, and I believe is around 6, younger than Franklin as she should be.

[Stagier]

[QUOTE=StoneGold]I doubt bulletproof would do much good against Kree zap gun. Given that it doesn't fire bullets.
[QUOTE]

That x-armour that moira designed stops Shi'ar stuff all the time. I am sure it can handle Kree. Bishop should look into the stuff. Esp since her outfit has no midrif.

[ocelotrevs]

ocelotrevs sees a bloodless saviour
That is true. But Cap has that totally awesome shield, that's indestructable.
Maybe, Cap and Patriots blood type'd be the same, so they have a transfusion and then you got your own little super soldier.

Hold on though, I heard that white people can't transfer blood to black people, so i'm not sure that'd work though.

[Beast]

Hold on though, I heard that white people can't transfer blood to black people, so i'm not sure that'd work though.
Please tell me that you're kidding.... right. :eek:

[StoneGold]

Please tell me that you're kidding.... right. :eek:
He obviously never saw that episode of MASH.

[ocelotrevs]

Beast thinks I jest
Please tell me that you're kidding.... right. :eek:
No. I'm not, I'm saying I heard it. But I'm not a medical person, so I dunno.

[Xanrn]

No Race is not a problem when it comes to blood transfusions.

Blood Type, Illness and if Cap has Drunk or taken Drugs in the last 48 hours or so.

Isn't Black Cap, more powerful than White Cap though, pretty sure he never lost his Super-strength.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

No Race is not a problem when it comes to blood transfusions.

Blood Type, Illness and if Cap has Drunk or taken Drugs in the last 48 hours or so.

Isn't Black Cap, more powerful than White Cap though, pretty sure he never lost his Super-strength.

Its never said he HAD super strength in any of the books, you may be thinking of Jack Monroe and the 50's Cap, although Jack eventually did lose his super strength. Isaiah was always just described as a Super Soldier, like Cap, and to assume he is stronger than Steve is pretty unfounded from the info in the comics.

It HAS sad that Isaiah's serum destroyed his mental capacity, so thats one way he is NOT more powerful than Cap.

[Young Avenger]

When did Luke Cage show up at the rooftop? When I reread the issue I saw him behind Cap in the double page spread. I didn't see him on the previous pages.

[StoneGold]

Its never said he HAD super strength in any of the books, you may be thinking of Jack Monroe and the 50's Cap, although Jack eventually did lose his super strength. Isaiah was always just described as a Super Soldier, like Cap, and to assume he is stronger than Steve is pretty unfounded from the info in the comics.

Josiah X had the superhuman strength though.

[Tony Starkz]

When did Luke Cage show up at the rooftop? When I reread the issue I saw him behind Cap in the double page spread. I didn't see him on the previous pages.

He was on the very first panel of everyone on the rooftop.In between WOlvie and Spidey,behind Cap facing the Kree.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Josiah X had the superhuman strength though.

Not according to his creator, Christopher Priest. I've linked to a word document (http://jjinbeat.com/JusticeClassified.doc) that came from a now defunct portion of Christopher Priest's website that I'd saved. It lists the max Josiah can press 850 lbs. where Steve Rogers is able to over 1100 lbs. as a super soldier. So, I don't really see how he has superhuman strength. Where did you get that impression?

[ocelotrevs]

When did Luke Cage show up at the rooftop? When I reread the issue I saw him behind Cap in the double page spread. I didn't see him on the previous pages.
I think that he got there the same time that Cap, Spider-Man, and Wolverine got there. We never saw them land either.

But wasn't Isiah kicking ass, when he was in Germany, and gained a lot of body muscle.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

But wasn't Isiah kicking ass, when he was in Germany, and gained a lot of body muscle.

Yes, just like Steve Rogers. It is pretty much what the Serum was made for, and it enhanced Isaiah and Steve's biology. They are both super soldiers, but Isaiah has never been shown to be superhumanly strong, or stronger than Cap.

[Michael P]

No Race is not a problem when it comes to blood transfusions.

And there was a sequence in "The Truth" that dealt with this.

ocelot, where did you hear that, out of curiosity?

[Tennoarashi]

All I know is - Wanda's kids are alright and alive, and one of them is gay.

So everything is alright with the world again.

[Jack Ketch]

I suspect there are all sorts of machinations going on here that are yet to be revealed.

When you consider the team was created by a Kang , you have 2 team members who have links to Mephisto and another who is half-Kree/half-Skrull, and thus potentially linked to another master manipulator, the Supreme Intelligence, you have to think there's a particular reason for this particular team line up assembling.

[Mothmonsterman]

I wonder if that "there are some Wonder Man related suprises in store in an upcoming arc" blurb has anything to do with the twins.

[Tony Starkz]

I wonder if this recent Kree/Skrull war will have ramifications in New Avengers after CW.Bendis did say we would see both races in the future in NA.

[darkhawk76]

All I know is - Wanda's kids are alright and alive, and one of them is gay.

So everything is alright with the world again.

I'm not 100% convinced that Billy & Thomas are defo Wanda's kids, I'm expecting some sort of twist

I think Allan was already a bit surprised how quickly we worked out that Billy & Teddy were a couple. Seeing as there'd be a lot of speculation about Billy's parentage before this issue came out, I've got the funny feeling Allan is trying to wrongfoot us

hope I'm wrong though, it'd be great to have Wanda's kids back (all we need now is an explanation for the rapid aging)

[jadegiant77]

Vision(the original one, anyways) is not a robot. He's a synthezoid with artificial skin, blood, and ..organs( :p ), so he and Wanda coulda done the deed. About her twins, I suppose Wanda granted her own fondest wish during HOM and returned them to life.

[itsyaboy]

Not according to his creator, Christopher Priest. I've linked to a word document (http://jjinbeat.com/JusticeClassified.doc) that came from a now defunct portion of Christopher Priest's website that I'd saved. It lists the max Josiah can press 850 lbs. where Steve Rogers is able to over 1100 lbs. as a super soldier. So, I don't really see how he has superhuman strength. Where did you get that impression?

Actually, Josiah is stronger than Steve. According to the handbooks, Captain America can lift press 800 pounds with extreme effort. In your link it was mentioned that Josiah could lift/press 850 pounds with extreme effort. When Marvel states lift/press...they are talking over the head shoulder presses. When Steve was pressing 1100 pounds....he was doing a bench press. A person is usually able to lift more on a bench press than they can on a shoulder press.

[The Dark Knight]

Can someone explain the "hiatus" this book is taking? Isn't it doing well financially?

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Yeah, I believe it is doing well enough. But, the hiatus is more because of Allan Heinberg's schedule more than anything.

[StoneGold]

Can someone explain the "hiatus" this book is taking? Isn't it doing well financially?
If anything, just the opposite. As Ronnie said, Heinberg has a day job. But they don't want anyone else writing the book. So it's taking a break until his schedule gets on track a little more.



Well, nobody writing the book except Zeb Wells, who will be writing the Runaways/Young Avengers crossover book that will be bridging the hiatus gap. Supposedly with input from Vaughn and Heinberg.

[Gaz]

If anything, just the opposite. As Ronnie said, Heinberg has a day job. But they don't want anyone else writing the book. So it's taking a break until his schedule gets on track a little more.



Well, nobody writing the book except Zeb Wells, who will be writing the Runaways/Young Avengers crossover book that will be bridging the hiatus gap. Supposedly with input from Vaughn and Heinberg.
ARGH, TOO MUCH AWESOME...
*head explodes*

[Jack]

I suspect there are all sorts of machinations going on here that are yet to be revealed.

When you consider the team was created by a Kang , you have 2 team members who have links to Mephisto and another who is half-Kree/half-Skrull, and thus potentially linked to another master manipulator, the Supreme Intelligence, you have to think there's a particular reason for this particular team line up assembling.
And they were brought together by the super-secret files of Vision, who was created by Ultron, and now a new incarnation of Vision is part of the team. They got all sorts of villainous connections going on.hope I'm wrong though, it'd be great to have Wanda's kids back (all we need now is an explanation for the rapid aging)How about this: the souls landed in the bodies of pre-existing children, transforming them, and then they aged normally. So if it happened, like eight years ago, then the kids were seven. They might have sought out bodies that they were compatible with, even, to account for their names.

[Stagier]

thinking about this some more.

Here's what i think about the twins.

The two kids tommy and billy were born 16 years ago to they respective families and had no connection what so ever. some freak accident happened and they were comatose 10-11 years ago. at that time, the loose souls of wanda's kids attached themselves to the bodies, and tommy woke up with white hair which they attributed to shock. Well somethign along those lines.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

thinking about this some more.

Here's what i think about the twins.

The two kids tommy and billy were born 16 years ago to they respective families and had no connection what so ever. some freak accident happened and they were comatose 10-11 years ago. at that time, the loose souls of wanda's kids attached themselves to the bodies, and tommy woke up with white hair which they attributed to shock. Well somethign along those lines.

This is a good thought, and it could be so. I've heard a "Dawn Summers" theory regarding Buffy the Vampire Slayer's retcon sister, and I've thought of souls being beyond the limits of time. Your notion seems more like the suicidal Kendra Saunders being taken over by her deceased great aunt upon her soul leaving her body, in the character of DC's Hawkgirl.

And they were brought together by the super-secret files of Vision, who was created by Ultron, and now a new incarnation of Vision is part of the team. They got all sorts of villainous connections going on.How about this: the souls landed in the bodies of pre-existing children, transforming them, and then they aged normally. So if it happened, like eight years ago, then the kids were seven. They might have sought out bodies that they were compatible with, even, to account for their names.

But, the timeline wouldn't have the twins born 10 to 11 years ago. It wouldn't have happened 8 years ago either. At the rate of 4 years in real time to one in comics, its been 5 years since the boys were born, and they would have been about 1 when they disappeared originally.

Anyhow, I hope it makes sense, and doesn't make my heafd hurt, but I'm sure they'll either clear it up, or not get into it much.

[Jack]

This is a good thought, and it could be so. I've heard a "Dawn Summers" theory regarding Buffy the Vampire Slayer's retcon sister, and I've thought of souls being beyond the limits of time. Your notion seems more like the suicidal Kendra Saunders being taken over by her deceased great aunt upon her soul leaving her body, in the character of DC's Hawkgirl.



But, the timeline wouldn't have the twins born 10 to 11 years ago. It wouldn't have happened 8 years ago either. At the rate of 4 years in real time to one in comics, its been 5 years since the boys were born, and they would have been about 1 when they disappeared originally.

Anyhow, I hope it makes sense, and doesn't make my heafd hurt, but I'm sure they'll either clear it up, or not get into it much.
Then it happened 4 years ago. The numbers aren't important.

[Keith_Martineau]

I don't think we can apply the 4 years to one MU year or any other time calculation anymore.

It is very obvious that this series now marks about 15 to 16 years at least since the Kree/Skrull War.

[MDactor1980]

Yeah, I believe it is doing well enough. But, the hiatus is more because of Allan Heinberg's schedule more than anything.

Isn't that "schedule"... involve him running off to write the post-IC "Wonder Woman"??

IIRC he's not working on the OC anymore?

[Tony Starkz]

Isn't that "schedule"... involve him running off to write the post-IC "Wonder Woman"??

IIRC he's not working on the OC anymore?

He left the show when Season 3 started.That's why it's been sucky.

[Arilou]

Dudes.

It's magic.

Cause doesen't have to follow effect.

It is very much possible that the kid's souls were simply thrown back in time.

[Stagier]

ugh Dawn....

So Billy is the key....and tommy is the lock? i hope if this is true, than the only connection is their magical insertion into reality, and they don't turn into whiney lame characters

[RonnieThunderbolts]

I don't think we can apply the 4 years to one MU year or any other time calculation anymore.

It is very obvious that this series now marks about 15 to 16 years at least since the Kree/Skrull War.

That doesn't make any sense. Because William and Thomas being "15 or 16" wouldn't coincide with the Kree Skrull War. The Kree/Skrull War and the destruction of Billy and Thomas, they were not the same time in the comics, and more than a decade apart from each other in real life.

Franklin was already born by that time, and he's 10, Spider-Man isn't 45, and the sliding timeline DOES work, but Teddy can't have aged normally. If he were to have aged normally, it won't work. Its obvious that it "doesn't work" on many levels, and this series places characters that are still very much shrouded in mystery with ties to the Kree-Skrull War, but doesn't say when or how it happened yet really (being the birth and raising of Teddy).

As others have articulated as well, it destroys the shared universe that Marvel has if Cap, the Avengers, the FF, Spider-Man, the Hulk and the X-Men are all timed at debuting 12 years ago, and for some reason the Kree Skrull War was before all of this, along with stuff that happened YEARS later (the twins being reabsorbed by Mephisto), with characters back from the dead (like Wonder Man) who were not alive during the Kree Skrull War (Wonder Man again.) They haven't SAID that the two events were at the same time, but the logic that makes it "obvious" would mean that the K/S War was simultaneous with the disappearance of William and Thomas.

So, I'm not really seeing the 'obviousness' yet, because we're dealing with magic and with alien hybrid genetics, so normal aging can't be inferred if it destroys any logic behind the inference. That is a self-contradicting statement, (the timeline must have changed, because Teddy is THIS old, and Billy and Tommy, born years later, are ALSO this old, makes no sense...)

I'm NOT a continuity nut, I really am not, I don't mind the sliding timeline, I get the reasoning behind it, but there has to be some sort of consistency, or it all falls apart. Then, the Young Avengers exist in a universe without the FF, the X-Men, or even the Avengers history, because of characters whose timelines don't coincide.

[Haunt]

ugh Dawn....

So Billy is the key....and tommy is the lock? i hope if this is true, than the only connection is their magical insertion into reality, and they don't turn into whiney lame characters

"key?" "lock?" "magical insertion?" are they going to summon Gozer?

[Crash-Man]

Just to clarify the Isiah/Josiah/Cap strength debate: I've read every appearance of the first two, and neither of them have been shown to have higher than supersoldier strength.

However, Isiah is much bigger than Cap, probably due to the imperfect strain of the supersoldier serum that was tested on him and his peers. Don't know if that's the source of the super strength confusion.

[Stagier]

"key?" "lock?" "magical insertion?" are they going to summon Gozer?

sorry buffy reference, and nothing remotely sexual.

back to teh story!

if we are using the sliding time scale how long ago marvel time did the kree skrull war happen? AND how long ago were teh twins born.

And where does this take place with House of M, cause technically there were TWO sets of twins running around then. And that also means that Wanda doesn't know about the young avenger twins. although the kree supreme brain did....

Here's an add on to my previous theory. What if the two said twins, were in a coma, their souls flying about, and were grabbed by Wanda to make her kids. Then the whole mephisto thing happened, the kids were returned to their bodies but altered by Quasi-not-genetically-related-momma Wanda.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

sorry buffy reference, and nothing remotely sexual.

back to teh story!

if we are using the sliding time scale how long ago marvel time did the kree skrull war happen? AND how long ago were teh twins born.

And where does this take place with House of M, cause technically there were TWO sets of twins running around then. And that also means that Wanda doesn't know about the young avenger twins. although the kree supreme brain did....

Here's an add on to my previous theory. What if the two said twins, were in a coma, their souls flying about, and were grabbed by Wanda to make her kids. Then the whole mephisto thing happened, the kids were returned to their bodies but altered by Quasi-not-genetically-related-momma Wanda.

Interesting notion, that would explain where the "lost souls" addition to the twins' story came into play in the recent issue of Young Avengers.

One minor question: how do we know that the Kree Supreme Intelligence knows about the Young Avengers' Wanda-twins? That is a weird leap, as the Kree have shown no knowledge of Billy and Tommy, and the Super Skrull (the only person other than the Vision who has confirmed Billy and Tommy's probable story) is unrelated to old big, tentacle-haired Supremor.

As for the timeline, with Franklin being born in 1968, and the dawn of heroes happening in 1961, that makes Franklin almost 10, and the timeline at just over 11 years since the big hero career, with the general 1/4 timeline rule used to average out the real passage of time over the decades-old publishing history in the condensed timeline.

Teddy was conceived in 1972, one Marvel year after Franklin was born. If Franklin is about 10, Teddy's conception was about 9 years ago. With the twins born 20 years ago real time, the general rule of thumb puts Tommy and Billy at about 5 years old, and having disappeared at 1 year old, four years ago.

So, if your theory (which is interesting I'll admit) or another poster over at AvengersForever suggested,

Originally posted by x51
With Billy and Thomas, we could just say that the souls of William and Thomas intertwined with the existing souls of Billy and Thomas, which is why they have superpowers, and why they don't remember being the twins. And then, my theory for Disassembled still works. They don't know they are the twins "reincarnated", but Wanda senses it. She isn't sure about it though, since they are so much older than her children, and the doubt causes her to lose her sanity, which causes her to lose control of her powers. And that would tie into what Dr. Strange said about "trying to keep it together" in #503.


Then when these other twins were in a coma, or these other unrelated boys, or whatever, that was four years ago, when the whole Mephisto story went down and the souls dispersed after destroying him. If Billy and Tommy are 16, that'd make them 12 when the souls joined theirs. If the characters went in the coma when they were conceived, it'd be when they were 10 or 11 I'd think.

The timeline works though, now that they've let Franklin catch up to his age, and it even works with Cassie's original age and appearance. The timeline doesn't lie! (unless you're talking about Ben Grimm and Reed Richards' WWII careers... that would make my head explode trying to sort that out...)

[Stagier]

One minor question: how do we know that the Kree Supreme Intelligence knows about the Young Avengers' Wanda-twins? That is a weird leap, as the Kree have shown no knowledge of Billy and Tommy, and the Super Skrull (the only person other than the Vision who has confirmed Billy and Tommy's probable story) is unrelated to old big, tentacle-haired Supremor.




are you asking me how i know? or in general? I thought that it was said in the book that the green brain knew.

and x-fan's theory confused me, maybe i have to re-read it, again. They are saying 4 souls? intetwined into 2 souls. yah? WIth the maximoff twins being the dominant personality, and with that and their age NOT matching, made wanda go nutso?

i'm going to go chaotic soon if i keep this up. I just want to know teh answer!
If we have to wait till 2007..... I SWEAR.....!!

[RonnieThunderbolts]

are you asking me how i know? or in general? I thought that it was said in the book that the green brain knew.

Where did it say that Supremor knew, if what I'm asking. The Super Skrull says "according to Skrull intelligence" as in, intelligence information, gathered by/for spying, like in CIA. I guess you got it mixed with the Kree Supreme Intelligence, but I don't think thats what they meant, as they said Skrull intelligence, and the Skrulls, and Super Skrull, have no prior friendship with the leader of their enemies, the Kree Supreme Intelligence.

[Stagier]

gotcha, yeah must have misread that part. tend to do that a lot.
so how do teh skrulls know about the twins?...

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Skrull intelligence means it was Earth-bound Skrullian spies. The question remains though, did the Super Skrull ASSUME it was the Vision and Scarlet Witch's sons that were helping him and Teddy (our Billy and Tommy) or does their spying give them inside information, and he KNOWS that they are the Maximoff twins. I guess time may well tell.

[PretenderNX01]

Is it possible that the scene in Young Avengers Special is actually Wanda using her ability to give Billy William's soul? I was thinking that might explain things in reguards to the timeline.

Maybe she wasn't aware what she as doing, or she knew it was a last ditch effort to save her children, using her hex powers she merged them with two compatible souls. In the few years following, Billy and Tommy started growing to apear more like William and Thomas and developing powers at the same age most mutants do- durring adolesence. So Tommy probably just atributed the white hair and speed to being a mutant. Billy must have thought that Wanda just helped bring out his own powers.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avengers_Disassembled) says that Disassembled, and House of M actually make up a trilogy with the upcoming Civil War being the third part. So I'm thinking either this is just before HoM or after it. The crossover is obviously after it, since its a Civil War tie in.

[ultimatespyder20]

This was the first issue of the series I picked up. Man was it good, I've added it to my pull list. Could someone please fill me in on what has happened so far though, I was a little confused while I was reading it. How did they get their powers and how did they meet and all that stuff? It would be great if some one could fill me in. Plus I thought Vision was dead?

Thanks,
Alec

[StoneGold]

This was the first issue of the series I picked up. Man was it good, I've added it to my pull list. Could someone please fill me in on what has happened so far though, I was a little confused while I was reading it. How did they get their powers and how did they meet and all that stuff? It would be great if some one could fill me in. Plus I thought Vision was dead?

Thanks,
Alec
Try this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Avengers

[sschroeder]

This was the first issue of the series I picked up. Man was it good, I've added it to my pull list. Could someone please fill me in on what has happened so far though, I was a little confused while I was reading it. How did they get their powers and how did they meet and all that stuff? It would be great if some one could fill me in. Plus I thought Vision was dead?

A collection of the first 6 issues, called Young Avengers Vol. 1: Sidekicks, just came out this week. You might enjoy that more than someone just telling you what happened.

[Kurosaki]

just for clarification, cassie lang is NOT a mutant, right?

[Pseudodragon]

just for clarification, cassie lang is NOT a mutant, right?
Nope, she got her powers by stealing her dad's Pym Particles.

[Jack]

Well... That's what we think, at any rate. But she said that she'd been stealing Pym Particles for years without any effect.

I heard somewhere that there's going to be a Wonder Man-related surprise in YA, and it's not that far a leap to say that Cassie might have Ionic powers instead, for whatever reason. After all, if Teddy can be the son of Captain Marvel then anything can happen.

[Beast]

Re: The Timeline...

Remember that Vision and Stature both guest-starred in She-Hulk #1. Vision didn't actually start looking like Vision or join the team until this arc. And She-Hulk #1 is Pre-HoM, thus setting all of YA #1-#12 pre-HoM. :)

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Well... That's what we think, at any rate. But she said that she'd been stealing Pym Particles for years without any effect.

I heard somewhere that there's going to be a Wonder Man-related surprise in YA, and it's not that far a leap to say that Cassie might have Ionic powers instead, for whatever reason. After all, if Teddy can be the son of Captain Marvel then anything can happen.

Not really. See, Cassie took Pym Particles, which aren't related to the Ionic powers thing. Cassie said the hadn't had any effect, but it was just that she didn't notice. The Pym Particles don't just, not work sometimes, and using them for years (like she was trying to do while swiping them) will make their effect permenant. The Young Avengers Special shows Cassie shrinking and growing with her emotions BEFORE realizing it when she discovered her powers in the main YA title.

The Hulkling surprise made sense, he had no origin, but that would be like revealing that Eli is really Wonder Man's son and NOT the grandson of Isaiah Bradley, it wouldn't be a twist, it'd make no sense.

Actually, the line said that in an upcoming arc Wonder Man would have some involvement, nothing about surprising us with the characters we already have.

Simon is sterile, as has been stated in the comics, and an energy being, so he can't be the twins' "real father" as some have suggested either.

I AM very curious to see how they do a Simon connected story and/or character, but I don't think we can speculate on it quite yet, seems to early, as the next Heinberg-penned story won't be around until 2007.

[Stagier]

Simon is sterlie? damn, Wanda sure knows how to choose her baby daddies.... no wonder she had to resort to magic, poor dark wanda.

But didn't Simon and atlas have some sort of ionic connection? maybe there will be a kid involved too. Wonder LAD! Ionicle!

[Haunt]

Not really. See, Cassie took Pym Particles, which aren't related to the Ionic powers thing. Cassie said the hadn't had any effect, but it was just that she didn't notice. The Pym Particles don't just, not work sometimes, and using them for years (like she was trying to do while swiping them) will make their effect permenant. The Young Avengers Special shows Cassie shrinking and growing with her emotions BEFORE realizing it when she discovered her powers in the main YA title.

The Hulkling surprise made sense, he had no origin, but that would be like revealing that Eli is really Wonder Man's son and NOT the grandson of Isaiah Bradley, it wouldn't be a twist, it'd make no sense.

Actually, the line said that in an upcoming arc Wonder Man would have some involvement, nothing about surprising us with the characters we already have.

Simon is sterile, as has been stated in the comics, and an energy being, so he can't be the twins' "real father" as some have suggested either.

I AM very curious to see how they do a Simon connected story and/or character, but I don't think we can speculate on it quite yet, seems to early, as the next Heinberg-penned story won't be around until 2007.

Simon clashed with Mephisto before. maybe that's the involvement.

Simon is sterlie? damn, Wanda sure knows how to choose her baby daddies.... !

well it's her fault. she clawed his balls off back during that Dark Scarlet arc in West Coast Avengers.

[Pseudodragon]

Well... That's what we think, at any rate. But she said that she'd been stealing Pym Particles for years without any effect.

I heard somewhere that there's going to be a Wonder Man-related surprise in YA, and it's not that far a leap to say that Cassie might have Ionic powers instead, for whatever reason. After all, if Teddy can be the son of Captain Marvel then anything can happen.

Which still wouldn't affect the answer to the original question :) Ionic-based powers would still mean she's not a mutant.

Now that I think about it, if there is a Wonder man in the original group, my money's on Eli. Something's gonna happen to give him powers when he recovers, and getting Cap's powers now would just be too easy for Heinberg. Besides, look at the original 4. Iron Lad got his powers from Kang, Billy from Wanda, and Teddy's Captain Marvel Jr. All 3 got their powers from someone other than the guy they were dressed as, so it'd make sense for Eli to pick up his powers from someone other than Cap.

[Haunt]

Which still wouldn't affect the answer to the original question :) Ionic-based powers would still mean she's not a mutant.

Now that I think about it, if there is a Wonder man in the original group, my money's on Eli. Something's gonna happen to give him powers when he recovers, and getting Cap's powers now would just be too easy for Heinberg. Besides, look at the original 4. Iron Lad got his powers from Kang, Billy from Wanda, and Teddy's Captain Marvel Jr. All 3 got their powers from someone other than the guy they were dressed as, so it'd make sense for Eli to pick up his powers from someone other than Cap.


Kate Bishop, who hasn't been given a codename yet, may well get ionic powers. everyone is looking at Eli, so it would be the natural twist; having the Wonderman-analog be a female. she's already wearing the shades.

[Linguini]

Young Avengers are Gay .

[Young Avenger]

Young Avengers are Gay .

Thank you for adding NOTHING to the discussion.

[Linguini]

Sry, but its just weird that hulkling and the little thor are gay.

[Beast]

Sry, but its just weird that hulkling and the little thor are gay.
Why is it weird? There's nothing wrong with their sexuality. :p

[Annie get your Rum]

Sry, but its just weird that hulkling and the little thor are gay.

Why do you keep posting messages along this line?

You even posted "ew, YA are gay" in another thread.
At least type in some sort of argument regarding what seems to be a dislike for the situation.

[Pseudodragon]

Kate Bishop, who hasn't been given a codename yet, may well get ionic powers. everyone is looking at Eli, so it would be the natural twist; having the Wonderman-analog be a female. she's already wearing the shades.

But I like having someone like Kate around that gets by on pure skill. Though I guess if you make Kate Wonder Girl then Eli can be the powerless one. And you'd get your neat twist, too: Eli getting saved by normal doctors doing their job without resorting to superhero science :)

I think the story works better with Kate as the powerless one since her origin is based on hard work and determination to make sure it never happens again. Giving her superstrength and stuff kind of cheapens everything she's gone through. But then with Eli, you have the guy that lied about having powers to get his way onto the team discovering he can be a hero anyways, so either way would work...

[Violently Apathetic]

I feel that Eli, who tried to take 'the easy route' (I don't mean that to sound condescending towards him, I actually really like Eli) should be the one who has to keep up with others out of sheer skill and determination. I certainly don't mind him getting powers, but I think it would be more poignant if he became a strong and confident leader through his own abilities. I actually like the idea of having powerless members on the team, if only to offset the fact that Billy and Teddy are so powerful and versatile.

[UniqueFrequency]

Sry, but its just weird that hulkling and the little thor are gay.

why is it 'weird'? i don't get your point.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Which still wouldn't affect the answer to the original question :) Ionic-based powers would still mean she's not a mutant.

Now that I think about it, if there is a Wonder man in the original group, my money's on Eli. Something's gonna happen to give him powers when he recovers, and getting Cap's powers now would just be too easy for Heinberg. Besides, look at the original 4. Iron Lad got his powers from Kang, Billy from Wanda, and Teddy's Captain Marvel Jr. All 3 got their powers from someone other than the guy they were dressed as, so it'd make sense for Eli to pick up his powers from someone other than Cap.

Ah, but Eli already broke that mold of the original four, because Thor was a Scarlet Witch analog in disguise, Hulk was Captain Marvel's son, and Iron Lad was Kang, like their powers, their identities and connections were false leads as well. But Eli IS connected to Cap, and this broke from the commonality the other three founders had of throwing us readers for a loop. Besides, they continued to break that tradition with Cassie, whose powers are directly related to her up front connection of her dad. So, I don't think we can assume there is any tradition at all.

I agree, it would be easy in a way to have Eli get a Super Soldier blood transfusion, but that isn't a bad thing to me, and it isn't "too" easy. Its just like the Maximoff twins connection. So many are skeptical, just as many (including myself) were about Teddy and Mar-Vell, but sometimes, if it looks like a duck, and acts like a duck, then it is most likely just a duck. Cap is a simple solution, and a likely suspect as a way to save and empower Eli, but it is just one possibility, it could go either way, I agree. I am a bit more confident that they won't pull the rug out from under us on the whole Tommy/Billy revlation though. That would make no sense.

[Syzygy]

But I still never understood how Vision could have had kids with Wanda...if someone could explain that to me, I'd be greatly obliged... :)

I was under the impression that the original Vision was neither a robot nor an android (a machine that merely looks like a human), but a synthezoid. That is to say, while he may have had some mechanical parts, he was nevertheless constructed of "synthetic tissue", that is, lab grown organic materials.

So I just assumed he had synthetic (but organic) uh, how do I say this? Can I say "sperm" without being banned? Is that okay? I guess I'll find out. I, uh, just assumed he had synthetic (but organic) sperm. :eek:

I'm fairly confident I've heard the term synthezoid before, in regard to him.

Peace,
Syzygy

[Stagier]

i am sure that there was no conception of children, and wanda "wished" herself prego.
that's not to say that said synthezoid can't make juice, but even so, i don't know if a human body would accept it, and not shoot them down at first sight, crazy immune system and all.