Muad'Dib, Muad'Dib!!!

[howyadoin]

So, like, anybody wanna talk about Dune?











God, I don't know if I have the energy to do this thread again...

[Celisasu]

Wonderful series. I really liked it. My personal favorites were the last two books(Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse Dune). It provides a nice mix of different things to keep the reader involved with the story. It was probably at its weakest(at least for me) in the second and third books. Especially the second.

[howyadoin]

My personal favorites were the last two books(Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse Dune)... It was probably at its weakest(at least for me) in the second and third books. Especially the second.My sentiments exactly. I think a lof of people give up before they get to the final books, which is a shame.

[Solaris]

So, like, anybody wanna talk about Dune?











God, I don't know if I have the energy to do this thread again...


*snickers*

Oh c'mon, Howya---there's *always* energy to talk about Dune...! :D

*thinks about Forums rebuild, chants the Litany Against Fear*

[Celisasu]

*snickers*

Oh c'mon, Howya---there's *always* energy to talk about Dune...! :D

*thinks about Forums rebuild, chants the Litany Against Fear*

Litany Against Fear. For a second there I was thinking "Warhammer 40k" and then remembered that it's part of Dune. :)

[howyadoin]

*snickers*

Oh c'mon, Howya---there's *always* energy to talk about Dune...!Maybe if I went into a spice trance...

[The Australian]

Ha!
Still haven't got around to picking up the last two books, although my Dune intrest has shown it still has a couple of embers left when I discovered David Lynch recently. I dunno, I'm still traumatised by God Emperor, I think I'ld just be happier if I forgot about everything that happened after the first Dune.

[Roquefort Raider]

Now I'll have to plot with Jonah, corrupt Howy's doctor and grow fat to get it back!!!


- Ben

Besides, I only have one nephew and he's not even evil !!!

[Roquefort Raider]

Hey, I just found a howyadoin ghola!!! -> :cool:


Is nothing sacred anymore?


- Ben

I actually tried to clone an army of them, but the board wouldn't let me. I suspect some higher power is at play, here.

[Celisasu]

Ha!
Still haven't got around to picking up the last two books, although my Dune intrest has shown it still has a couple of embers left when I discovered David Lynch recently. I dunno, I'm still traumatised by God Emperor, I think I'ld just be happier if I forgot about everything that happened after the first Dune.

Trust me, Chapterhouse Dune and Heretics of Dune are Dune at it's very best. Definately worth reading.

[howyadoin]

I'm still traumatised by God Emperor, I think I'ld just be happier if I forgot about everything that happened after the first Dune.Seriously, man. The last 2 are worth the effort you made slogging through God Emperor.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Heretics! God-Emperor of Dune is the centre, the axis around which the entire series revolves. There are three books leading up to the point where all of humanity is subjected to the will of the God Emperor and his frightening vision of how to save the human race, then there are two books dealing showing us how his long term plans developped.

We all know that there should have been a seventh book, and it will come someday, because the seventh book will complete the shedule, the form in which the series was written. Three books before the God Emperor, and three books after the God Emperor.

To be honest I found the last two books less engaging. Certain characters seemed awkwardly out of place, you'd think that their background would have evolved just like everything else, but instead Herbert kept them close to the present, which I found a pity.
The last two books contain more elements of playing into what people would like to see, instead of what the author would like to see, the last two books are more commercial than the previous ones. But they also contain more story than the previous four, I always feel that far more happens in the last two volumes than in the previous four.

[Will]

Hey, i went through the books really quickly and without going through details like i would usually as i wanted to get them done before Exams (im still halfway through Heretics) Could someone please explain exactly who the following groups are;

Landsraad
CHOAM
Bene Tleilax
Ixians


Much thanks for any help.

[Roquefort Raider]

Heretics! God-Emperor of Dune is the centre, the axis around which the entire series revolves. There are three books leading up to the point where all of humanity is subjected to the will of the God Emperor and his frightening vision of how to save the human race, then there are two books dealing showing us how his long term plans developped.

You're right, GEoD is the thematic center of the series... But I'll admit that personnally, I kept waiting for it to take off and it sort of never did. It was especially anticlimactic when it was published because we didn't know back then that it would be followed by two more books depicting the results of what Leto had set in motion.

We all know that there should have been a seventh book, and it will come someday, because the seventh book will complete the shedule, the form in which the series was written. Three books before the God Emperor, and three books after the God Emperor.

I'm afraid Dune 7 will happen, yeah... And it will feature stilted dialogue, caricatural characters, kung-fu fights between Miles Teg and Futars, and assorted misuse of the wonderful concepts created by Frank Herbert. All because there is money to be made with books having the word "Dune" on the cover. Oh, the agony!!!


To be honest I found the last two books less engaging. Certain characters seemed awkwardly out of place, you'd think that their background would have evolved just like everything else, but instead Herbert kept them close to the present, which I found a pity.
The last two books contain more elements of playing into what people would like to see, instead of what the author would like to see, the last two books are more commercial than the previous ones. But they also contain more story than the previous four, I always feel that far more happens in the last two volumes than in the previous four.

I agree with part of your views (Heretics being indeed far more commercial than God-Emperor, for example) but I thought the characters well-rounded. What's more, they acted more like real people than in the previous books (where everyone acted like a Shakespearian character). And I think the Bene Gesserit had clearly evolved since the deays of Dune: their motivations seemed far less selfish and arcane. But then, we can all see different things in complex books.

Cheers!


- Ben
The litany against fear helps a lot when I think about Dune 7.

[Roquefort Raider]

Hey, i went through the books really quickly and without going through details like i would usually as i wanted to get them done before Exams (im still halfway through Heretics) Could someone please explain exactly who the following groups are;

Landsraad
CHOAM
Bene Tleilax
Ixians



The Landsraad is the political body where the grat houses send their representatives. They're there to engage in negociations with each other and the Emperor. The Landsraad was probably meant to keep the Emperor's power in check, (just as the Magna Carta did for the king of England), but the Emperor trumps them all with the threat of his Sardaukar troops.

CHOAM is the company that owns the exclusive rights to sell spice. It is therefore a combination of McDonald's and Microsoft in terms of influence.

The Bene Tleilax is a cult that excels at biological manipulations. Using the human uterus as an incubation reactor, they can grow clones of dead people, create people capable of morphing their physical appearance (the face-dancers) and even producing artificial spice.

The Ixians are the inhabitants of planet Ix, where industry is geared to produce all sort of machines... Many of them tiptoeing the line between thinking and non-thinking machines (the former being forbidden since the Butlerian jihad that outlawed computers).

Hope that helps!



- Ben

Geeky.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

The Bene Tleilax is a cult that excels at biological manipulations. Using the human uterus as an incubation reactor, they can grow clones of dead people, create people capable of morphing their physical appearance (the face-dancers) and even producing artificial spice.

The Ixians are the inhabitants of planet Ix, where industry is geared to produce all sort of machines... Many of them tiptoeing the line between thinking and non-thinking machines (the former being forbidden since the Butlerian jihad that outlawed computers).


The Tleilaxu however, aren't a cult. Much like the IXians the Tleilaxu work on the edge of what the mainstream finds acceptable.

In the original novels you never hear anything about who rules IX, before the prequels came about, the planet was an enigma, it was suggested that the planet didn't have a House which rules, like Caladan had the House Atreides and Giedi Prime had the House Harkonnen. In God Emperor of Dune this is idea is strenghtened by what Leto II tells us.

As explained IX plays a dangerous game with the restrictions placed on technological advancement, they are always suspected of breaking the rules that came from the Butlerian Jihad.

Now the fun part of this is that the differences between IX and Bene Tleilax can be found in very fundamental elements. One of them deals with industrial progression, it has specialized itself in technology, where the other is often described as a deeply religious group, almost fanatical in their beliefs, they have specialized in genetic manipulation, they own the flesh so to speak.

If you look at the surface these two factions look like they are eachother's opposites, but they share more traits than one might suspect. The entire universe looks down on them. The IXians are mistrusted because they are constantly trying to find the limits of what is acceptable. The Tleilaxu are mistrusted because they are incredibly isolationist and they tamper with the building blocks of life. They create face-dancers and ghola's, in that regard they've taken over the role of God, and in a Universe that's quite religious, this can be seen as the main reason why the Tleilaxu are looked down upon.

The Bene Geserit abhors both. IX because it glorifies machines, which goes against the teachings of the Bene Gesserit who have focussed most of their energies on human culture.
Tleilax with it's genetic experiments goes against the breeding programme of the Bene Geserit, it even goes against nature, notice how the Bene Geserit never use artificial insemination, they are masters of their own bodies. The Tleilaxu are masters of other people's flesh, they design other people.

Neither IX nor Tleilax are very open, both societies are presented as enigmatic and isolationist, we're never given confirmation on how they govern their planets. We know very little about the Tleilaxu-society, but we know even less about the IXian society. With Tleilax we know that there are Masters and Facedancers, and thus it's not all that difficult to assume that there are Masters and Servants and that their society is based on that rather simplistic model.

IX is still the real mystery of the original novels.

my god I'm such a freaking geek...

[The Dosadi Experiment]

I'm afraid Dune 7 will happen, yeah... And it will feature stilted dialogue, caricatural characters, kung-fu fights between Miles Teg and Futars, and assorted misuse of the wonderful concepts created by Frank Herbert. All because there is money to be made with books having the word "Dune" on the cover. Oh, the agony!!!

You actually have a more positive outlook on the product than I have.



I agree with part of your views (Heretics being indeed far more commercial than God-Emperor, for example) but I thought the characters well-rounded. What's more, they acted more like real people than in the previous books (where everyone acted like a Shakespearian character). And I think the Bene Gesserit had clearly evolved since the deays of Dune: their motivations seemed far less selfish and arcane. But then, we can all see different things in complex books.


I think the last two books really demystified the Bene Gesserit sisterhood. In the original three books they were enigmatic witches with a desire to control and pull strings behind the scenes. Manipulative bitches.
The fourth book crippled them as an organisation, which made sense regarding the setting against they were set. The God Emperor controlled all, and he controlled the Bene Gesserit, they became his puppets like his ancestors were once their puppets. Sort of an ultimate revenge.
So the manipulative witches were castrated, their power was taken away from them and they were forced to beg for their lives.
But then Herbert really delved into individual sisters, he used them as main characters, and by doing so we were given direct insight in their organisation. Herbert excelled in giving the reader an open situation, he gave a couple of facts and offered some insights, but he left it out in the open for the reader to connect the dots and to fill in the blanks.

Herbert had that quality, to create a perfectly rounded organisation without spelling the entire movement out for the reader. With minimal information he gave the reader a very clear insight into the working of his universe.
In the final two books it all became much simpler, much more straightforward, a lot of the mystery was removed when he openly explained it. The greatest secret of the Tleilaxu was revealed, not in the same vein as his son exposed the secret, Herbert was far more subtle, but still the secret lay out in the open, exposed.
A lot of subtlety was lost in the last two books, we gained more story, more action, more characters, but in order to appeal to a larger audience a lot of depth was taken away by Herbert. He simplified the universe a bit, made it more accesible by defining it clearer.

[Will]

Ah, thanks for the informations guys.

This may be a painfully stupid question, but if the Tleilax and Ixians were skirting the borders of what was acceptable, why didnt one of the various Emperors "take them out" in a covert manner? We know there willing to do this e.g. Emperor Shaddam and House Atreides.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Ah, thanks for the informations guys.

This may be a painfully stupid question, but if the Tleilax and Ixians were skirting the borders of what was acceptable, why didnt one of the various Emperors "take them out" in a covert manner? We know there willing to do this e.g. Emperor Shaddam and House Atreides.

Because of their positions most likely. Even if they danced on the line, the products they made were worth their taunting.
They are influential.

If you need a new pair of eyes, or a new limb, you turn to the Tleilaxu, they're very skilled artists when it comes to flesh. Throughout the novels you hear about chairdogs, where do you suppose they came from? In the last two novels you have creatures that eat waste. Little things that make life easier, but also big things that can make them quite formidable foes. Facedancers can be very dangerous if used properly.
And IX will always be able to invent new weapons if you would need one.

They were never taken out because they never crossed the line, they just flirted with it, they taunted the universe with their practices, but at the same time they give products to the universe that are benificial for all.

They aren't accepted but they're not prosecuted. In my country there is a word for this, it's "Gedogen". When something is between legal and illegal, authorities are willing to turn a blind eye to the practice since they can't stop it and since it isn't exactly illegal, it's there, everybody knows it, but nobody is willing to do anything about it, there is no real motivation to act. So they're reluctantly accepted into the overal society.

[Roquefort Raider]

A lot of subtlety was lost in the last two books, we gained more story, more action, more characters, but in order to appeal to a larger audience a lot of depth was taken away by Herbert. He simplified the universe a bit, made it more accesible by defining it clearer.

Good point, but I don't know to what extent that can be attributed to a desire to make the books more accessible, and how much was necessary to make us see just what Darwi Odrade had to deal with. I remember that in Chapterhouse in particular, while the reader gets to know what's going on because Odrade keeps thinking about it, the other sisters are kept in the dark and are even doubting her leadership. It could be a case of delibererately changing the storytelling technique to make the book more personal; to make it more Odrade's story than Dune's story.

But I may be shoveling sand, here.


- Ben

Do not miss Tapeworm of Dune, by Herbert and Anderson. Coming too soon to a bookstore near you.

[Chuckg]

It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

It is by the beans of java that the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

... what? :)

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Good point, but I don't know to what extent that can be attributed to a desire to make the books more accessible, and how much was necessary to make us see just what Darwi Odrade had to deal with. I remember that in Chapterhouse in particular, while the reader gets to know what's going on because Odrade keeps thinking about it, the other sisters are kept in the dark and are even doubting her leadership. It could be a case of delibererately changing the storytelling technique to make the book more personal; to make it more Odrade's story than Dune's story.

But I may be shoveling sand, here.


Good point, but we'll never know who's right and who's wrong on this matter. I fear for what the Dynamic Duo will do to the seventh book, they've basically mutilated the Butlerian Jihad with work that resembles mediocre adolescent fan fiction, their prequel trilogy was a slap in the face of whomever had read the originals and now they're tackling the seventh novel... I'm actually concerned about how they are going to burn it to the ground.

In other news, I saw the special DVD-version of David Lynch's Dune in my local videostore, nice black cover, it looked expensive, I glanced at the back to see what extra material they had, and to my surprise I read that on the DVD they had an interview with Frank Herbert...

Also, the first page indicates that on the old board there was a similair thread, but I'm curious as to what the shape of the discussion had, since the opening statement has a very ominous warning attached to it...

God, I don't know if I have the energy to do this thread again...

so... is there something I missed or should know about the previous incarnation?

[Roquefort Raider]

so... is there something I missed or should know about the previous incarnation?


Heh! Let's say that it was a very long-running thread!


- Ben

And no sayyadina to remember it all. Feh!

[Chuckg]

Good point, but we'll never know who's right and who's wrong on this matter. I fear for what the Dynamic Duo will do to the seventh book, they've basically mutilated the Butlerian Jihad with work that resembles mediocre adolescent fan fiction, their prequel trilogy was a slap in the face of whomever had read the originals and now they're tackling the seventh novel... I'm actually concerned about how they are going to burn it to the ground.

Anybody ever post the link to the old Penny Arcade cartoon that dealt with this issue?

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-10-15

[Roquefort Raider]

[QUOTE]

Anybody ever post the link to the old Penny Arcade cartoon that dealt with this issue?

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-10-15


I couldn't possibly disagree less!

[The Dosadi Experiment]

I know people who actually enjoyed the new novels. After screaming at them, I decided to ask them where they got their LSD, PCP, Angeldust, Crack, Mushrooms or whatever it was that warped their perception in such a drastic manner that even the truly abysmal looked pleasing and entertaining.

[Will]

I have to say, even though there books are entirely NOT suited to the Dune universe, they are reasonably good at writing the fight scenes.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

I have to say, even though there books are entirely NOT suited to the Dune universe, they are reasonably good at writing the fight scenes.

but that's the whole point, they might be decent books, but they chose to have it set in the Duniverse. They chose to write stories in an established environment.
If they wanted to tell their own story they should have created a completely new setting. They gained a lot of freedom when they started the Butlerian Jihad series, and still they failed to create a sense of depth and intricacy. Their tales are pulp, overpriced, oversized pulp.

[howyadoin]

In an effort to make this thread feel like home, I'm posting this from the old thread:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/howyadoin/DUNE.jpg

[howyadoin]

Heretics!So... I'm a heretic for liking Heretics?

I can live with that.

We all know that there should have been a seventh book, and it will come someday, because the seventh book will complete the shedule, the form in which the series was written. Three books before the God Emperor, and three books after the God Emperor.Much as I appreciate symmetry, I don't think the series needs a seventh book. While there are some issues left unresolved, the last book certainly wasn't the cliffhanger that Brian Herbert misguidedly makes it out to be.

The last two books contain more elements of playing into what people would like to see, instead of what the author would like to see, the last two books are more commercial than the previous ones. But they also contain more story than the previous four, I always feel that far more happens in the last two volumes than in the previous four.More commercial? I guess, if by that you mean more like the first book. But that still presupposes that Frank Herbert's motivation was sales, and I'm not quite sure I believe that.

[howyadoin]

I'm afraid Dune 7 will happen, yeah... And it will feature stilted dialogue, caricatural characters, kung-fu fights between Miles Teg and Futars, and assorted misuse of the wonderful concepts created by Frank Herbert.Don't forget the giant couple from the end of Chapterhouse, who will no doubt be facing off against the killer robots from The Butlerian Jihad in a battle to rival King Kong Vs. Godzilla (only with worse dialogue).

[Solaris]

Seriously, man. The last 2 are worth the effort you made slogging through God Emperor.

Amen! :) :) :)

[The Dosadi Experiment]

So... I'm a heretic for liking Heretics?

I can live with that.

You're just a heretic for not liking God Emperor. ;)

Much as I appreciate symmetry, I don't think the series needs a seventh book. While there are some issues left unresolved, the last book certainly wasn't the cliffhanger that Brian Herbert misguidedly makes it out to be.

We all survived a decade without a seventh book, so technically it doesn't need a seventh book, but it was designed to have a seventh novel to follow up on some of the issues raised in Heretics and Chapterhouse, this much has been confirmed by numeorus sources.

Do we need it? Probably not.

Do we want it? That's a whole different animal. I wouldn't mind seeing the resolution by the hands of Frank Herbert, but I would mind seeing it resolved by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. There are already rumours floating around on the web that they'll stick an eighth novel to the series.
Rumours which, unfortunately, aren't that far fetched.

After all... did we need a House Atreides novel? Or a House Harkonnen? And I think it would be best if we simply forgot about the abomination that was House Corinno alltogether.

What people need and what people want are two completely different things.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Oh for crying out loud, my nightmarish vision of the future has become reality! This just isn't funny.


In a major deal, Tor Books and Hodder & Stoughton (UK) have contracted with Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson for more DUNE novels. The deal includes:


The two-volume "grand climax" to the DUNE chronicles, HUNTERS OF DUNE and SANDWORMS OF DUNE, based directly on the "Dune 7" outline written by Frank Herbert;

THE ROAD TO DUNE, a compendium of never-before-published chapters from DUNE and DUNE MESSIAH, and original stories and a short novel written by Brian and Kevin.


THE ROAD TO DUNE will be published in the interim while Brian and Kevin are writing HUNTERS and SANDWORMS. As part of the contract, Tor Books has also included the first volume in the "Paul of Dune" trilogy.

[Roquefort Raider]

That's indeed pretty bad news.

Like

Mariel Hemingway's "The old man and the sea II: revenge on the sharks".


But the most shameful thing is... I'll probably read those books... I'm so weak...

[The Dosadi Experiment]

But the most shameful thing is... I'll probably read those books... I'm so weak...

You suffer the same fate as many do... the title is Dune, therefore it must grace your collection of all things Dune. I to have fallen for this vile trickery, they forced me to buy and read those infernal prequels! They made me listen to that infernal techno-band from Germany, and I wasted hours playing the games. And my eyes are squared because of the hours I spent in front of the tv watching the mini-series and movie.

although I must say, Dune: Spice Opera is rather unnerving, I'm glad I have it in my possession, it sounds weird, very French, very futuristic, it reminds me of the original game...

[howyadoin]

But the most shameful thing is... I'll probably read those books... I'm so weak...Not I. I sorta liked the first prequel, but that was mainly because of the novelty factor, I think. But after slogging through the other two, and trying - but failing - to read Jihad, I have officially given up watching Brian Herbert pissing on his father's legacy.

[Smell]

Infomy, infomy, they've all got it in for me!

I'd like to see the Carry on... Dune film that Sid James and Hattie Jaques used to go on about, apparantly Barbara Windsor was going to be RM Gaius Helen Mohiam.

Dom

smells of spice

[Ronald Bryan]

I absolutely loved Dune. It was such a well written book and so fun. Then I read Dune Messiah. While it was interesting reading about the politics going on. And the way that we see how the future comes about, and is eventually changed is just as fun. But overall, the book was slow and boring and nothing like Dune. I do want to try the rest of the books but don't really find myself all that excited about them.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Topic kick... if not necromancy...

I'm currently re-reading Heretics of Dune, and I'm reminded once again why I love these books so much. There is an immediate sense of intricacy. Also with Heretics of Dune you see a change in society and culture from the first books.

The old world is long since gone, I remember hating it when I first read it, accusing it of not really being Dune, but now, I'm enjoying it a fair bit more. I appreciate the elements inside.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

again... this is not Necromancy...

the latest installation of the Dune-series has arrived. Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's version of The Battle of Corrin

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0765301598.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Roquefort Raider]

Those worms are so expressive!

[Smell]

If you look in the background and see just how "friendly" those worms are getting with each other.

I half expect the next book cover to show mr and mrs worm in bed, enjoying a post coital fag.

Dom

smells like a love thang

[Solaris]

If you look in the background and see just how "friendly" those worms are getting with each other.

I half expect the next book cover to show mr and mrs worm in bed, enjoying a post coital fag.

Dom

smells like a love thang

"Fag" being the Brit term for "cigarette," in case anyone didn't know that...

:)

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I really dug the David Lynch movie, which I guess is heresy to some, so I've always been curious about the rest of story is. I tried reading the books but couldn't slog through them so I watched that painfully dull mini-series the Sci-Fi network put out instead.

Yet, depite all this, I'd still like to know how the rest of the story plays out, just not enough to read five more books.

Could someone summarize what happens following the intial story. If the last mini-series is any indication, I take it Paul's sister went nuts, Paul died and Leto II became a human/worm hybrid.

What happens next?

[Roquefort Raider]

here's a brief recap.

God Emperor of Dune:

Let's jump 5000 years into the future after Children of Dune.

Leto is still a worm, only one with a human face and two ridiculously small arms. He's been both emperor and God for all that time and has imposed order to the imperium. He is feared by all and hated by many, but Leto has a noble goal: his actions are meant to further the Golden Path, a plan to help mankind (a) to survive for more than a while, and (b) perhaps also achieve its full potential.

Dune itself is now green and verdant, with a mere sandy reservation where museum Fremen continue to "play desert".

We learn that Leto has kept ordering a new Duncan Idaho ghola from the Bene Tleilax each time the previous one died, to act as his advisor. The most recent one isn't too thrilled about his boss, because he sees him more for the tyrant he is than as humanity's shepherd.

A conspiracy is born to get rid of Leto. A perfect woman is even cooked up in Tleilaxu tanks to help bring about his downfall after he falls in love with her. What's cool is that this woman doesn't hide that fact from leto, and that he himself doesn't seem to mind... (we learn later than his own destruction is part of the Golden path).

After many pages of what can be summed up as "people talking about stuff", the God-Emperor is victim of an assassination attempt that plunges him in a river. His worm body falls apart in a mass of sand trouts, each carrying a spark of his consciousness, ready to make new worms. If I recall correctly, Leto dies a unhappy man but thinks he succeeded in making the Golden path happen.

Heretics of Dune:

The first of the so-called Bene Gesserit novels, this one also begins after many thousands of years have passed. Dune is once again a desert planet, after the Leto worms have had their way with it. Spice is now made industrially in tleilaxu tanks, so the worms are a bit redundant as far as money-making goes.

Part of the Golden path has come to pass, at least as far as we understand it: humanity has scattered through the universe a few thousand years before. We are given to understand that this massive dispersal, by sending humans everywhere and exposing them to new aspects of reality, will prevent our eventual extinction.

The Bene Gesserit, who play in the two last novels a much more sympathetic role than in the first four, are still around. They still teach people to control their minds and bodies, and still seek to make humans all that they can be. There doesn't seem to be an imperium anymore, but rather a loose network of spheres of influence where powers like the bene Gesserit, the Tleilax or others hold sway.

A great menace has however recently appeared: a group of women, the Honored Matres, have set up shop in local space and are obviously intent on subjugating everyone to their will. They're obviously a branch of Bene Gesserit gone bad, with all their powers but none of their discipline or good intentions. The Matres are also clearly aiming at destroying the Bene Gesserit.

This novel contains a lot of action mixed in with its philosophical aspects, as we follow bashar Miles Teg (one cooool character!) in his dealing with the Matres. We also see how Darwi Odrade, an Atreides Bene Gesserit, ends up as mother superior and is put in charge of the survival of her order. Idaho is still around, decanted over and over again from the ghola tanks, because everyone suspects he's now something truly unique after thousands of lifetimes... What can he tell us about the human condition?

Bene Gesserit planets fall one after the other. However, a Matres that's been captured (Murbella) is slowly being turned around by the more intelligent and disciplined way of the old school. She still tries to have her way with Duncan (Matres can enslave men with their superhuman sexual techniques) but tables are turned when Duncan turns out to be quite gifted in the sack... well, actually, Duncan has achieved a state of übermenschness that makes him the male equivalent of a Bene Gesserit. In any case, he manages to resist her and both end up as "imprinted" on each other; not really liking each other but unable to stay apart.

Lots of maneuvering, clever plot twists, and strategy and Dune is destroyed at the end. Really. Only one worm is rescued by the Bene Gesserit.


Chapterhouse: Dune

The Matres are in maximum carnage mode and Odrade plays an almost desperate gambit to save the known universe from the unrestrained and ultimately self-destructive passions they live by. In a very brave series of maneuvers, she positions every character in the novel so that the Matres do win the war, but with Murbella as their leader. Murbella, we understand, will teach the Matres that the Bene Gesserit ways are better. The Bene Gesserit wins by bending like the reed and not breaking like the oak.

We learn that the Matres weren't here just because they like invading other places: they were running away from something, something that's still back there in the depths of space they came from but might be pursuing them. We suspect that that something may be Face Dancers, the shape-shifting tleilaxu agents, who might have gained the power of copying not only appearances but also minds (and accumulating them).

Meanwhile, after many plot twists, Idaho, a cloned Miles Teg and a young Bene Gesserit who can charm sandworms by dancing disappear in space aboard a non-ship, a vessel that's invisible to any instrument. They take with them the promise of more mysterious possibilities for mankind, and their leave-taking is witnessed by two beings who seem detached from reality... cultivating their garden, these god-like figures are (a) Frank Herbert and his wife, but also (b) Face dancers who have achieved godhood by accumulating enough minds, and perhaps (c) the real agents of change in our universe. In any case, they wish us a lot of fun in an unlimited universe.


For my part, I thought God-Emperor was a bit slow. The events it covers are important for the overall story, but it's definitely not a thriller or an action book. The last two are much more dynamic and I certainly recommend them.

Cheers!

- Ben

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Thanks!

And now I know....the rest of the story.

[howyadoin]

here's a brief recap.Nicely done, sir.

[Roquefort Raider]

We live to serve.

[howyadoin]

Thanks!

And now I know....the rest of the story.You really oughta give the last 2 books a try, though. They're definitely good readin', even if you skip the others.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

One thing, Duncan in God Emperor was used as a stud. Because he's an original human, and old-human so to speak, Leto also used him to compare his own breeding programme to.

Anyway... I'm reading The Battle of Corrin right now... and my god this novel stinks.

[howyadoin]

ANYWAY, how much do the Dune prequels blow???I think you're gonna fit in here just fine.

[Roquefort Raider]

Originally Posted by manofsteel77
ANYWAY, how much do the Dune prequels blow???


They follow a downward curve in quality and interest, starting as an okay fanfic kind of story and continuing as a bad and accidental parody of Magnus, robot fighter.

They're to Dune what Star Wars and Star Trek novels are to the tv shows and movies: a derivative product meant to milk fans for every penny they're worth, and adding absolutely nothing to the real thing.

[howyadoin]

a derivative product meant to milk fans for every penny they're worth, and adding absolutely nothing to the real thing.*applauds*

[berk]

Did Herbert intend to write any more Dune books himself? And if so, did he leave behind any material - plot outlines, character notes, etc?

I must get around to reading the last two books one of these days. I liked all the earlier books, even God Emperor, but made the mistake of forcing myself to read the next book when I wasn't in the mood for it, and it kind of turned me off the series. I think I was a little too immature to appreciate some of the ideas in there at the time as well.

[howyadoin]

Did Herbert intend to write any more Dune books himself? And if so, did he leave behind any material - plot outlines, character notes, etc?His son claims that he did, and plans to write a final book. Sadly, such a book will most likely be putrid, based on the prequels he's co-written.

Not to mention unnecessary - the last book might be open-ended, but it's hardly the cliffhanger Brian Herbert purports it to be.

[berk]

Quote:
Originally Posted by berk
Did Herbert intend to write any more Dune books himself? And if so, did he leave behind any material - plot outlines, character notes, etc?
His son claims that he did, and plans to write a final book. Sadly, such a book will most likely be putrid, based on the prequels he's co-written. They should just publish Frank Herbert's notes, however fragmentary they might be. This has been done before - for example, Robert Musil never finished his monumental 'Man Without Qualities', so the edition I have contains a bunch of stuff after the last official (i.e. published with his approval) chapter: a few completed chapters that Musil apparently wanted to work on some more, alternate drafts, sketches, "drafts of character and incident", etc, etc. If Frank Herbert left anything like that around, I'd sooner read that than any pastiche written by someone else. And I'd pay for it too.

[Roquefort Raider]

If Frank Herbert left anything like that around, I'd sooner read that than any pastiche written by someone else. And I'd pay for it too.

Hear, hear!

If Brian wants to have an input on such a book, he can always write his own commentaries on his father's notes (à la Christopher Tolkien).

But since there is less money to be made by respecting a dead writer's work than by exploiting it, I doubt that's the way things will go.

[howyadoin]

Hear, hear!

If Brian wants to have an input on such a book, he can always write his own commentaries on his father's notes (ˆ la Christopher Tolkien).

But since there is less money to be made by respecting a dead writer's work than by exploiting it, I doubt that's the way things will go.What are we up to, now? 5 prequels? 6? How soon till we reach a point where they do a TV miniseries based on "Brian Herbert's Dune"?

[Solaris]

Eventually, I'll get around to reading these prequels, just so that I've done it... but all the stuff I've heard about them almost makes me dread doing it.

That makes me dread even more Brian's forecasted attempt to write a sequel to the books his dad wrote. If I hate the prequels, I'm sure I'll refuse to read the other one, just so it doesn't spoil what Herbert Sr. accomplished. As it was, he got it to a "leavable, anything can happen after this" point with "Chapterhouse," anyway. I'm really afraid that Brian's book will be just another attempt to capitalize on his dad's success, and dragging characters back and changing them when they were well enough as they were, where we left them.

Sigh.

BTW, here's a question for our Dune lovers:

In all the Dune books written by Frank Herbert, who was your absolute favorite character?

Mine? Miles Teg. If anyone could be said to be the epitome of the God Emperor's breeding/training program as to being both compassionate human and ultimate survivor thinker/doer, it was him.

[howyadoin]

here's a question for our Dune lovers:

In all the Dune books written by Frank Herbert, who was your absolute favorite character?Back when I'd only read the first one, it had to be Paul. Now? I think it's Duncan. He's really the secret star of the whole series, when you think about it.

[Solaris]

Back when I'd only read the first one, it had to be Paul. Now? I think it's Duncan. He's really the secret star of the whole series, when you think about it.


That's true. He was my second choice, after Miles Teg. :)

[Celisasu]

I hath sinned. I read the travesty of a novel called "House Atreides" and have seen bad fanfiction given form. *Weeps* It was a complete nightmare. The heroes and villians meet every hero and villian stereotype. The bad guys are complete sadists with no redeeming qualities whatsoever ever. They even have maniacal laughs. The heroes are perfect nice guys with no real flaws other than the typical "nice guy can't believe someone is evil" trait heroes often get. Plus I see a few contradictions with the original books. And this is off the top of my head when I haven't read them in awhile. I'm sure others exist that I didn't notice.

[Roquefort Raider]

And yet...

Compared to the turd that "The butlerian jihad" series is, "House Atreides" is actually good!



Cry, ye masses!

[Celisasu]

Wait...you mean it gets worse?! :eek:

[howyadoin]

Wait...you mean it gets worse?!I hate to say it, but yes.

Your best bet is to do like we do and pretend those books don't exist.

[Celisasu]

I'll definately have to try. Ugh. House Atreides was one of the worst books I've read. And that's counting Star Trek and Forgotten Realms novels. I can only think of two authors that have produced worse works which scares me.


And on a side note: I just finished reading House Harkonnen....and it was as bad as or worse than House Atreides. I had trouble deciding.

[Solaris]

Eventually I'll read the Brian Herbert books... probably when I go in to get my next root canal. Might as well throw all the misery together. ;)

No, I really want to read them, just so that I understand just how bad they are. After reading crap reviews from many many Dune lovers of these "prequels," I'm pretty much convinced that THAT much bad press HAS to have something behind it. Sigh. And his father's books were SO good...

[Celisasu]

I've had a root canal so in all honesty the books aren't as bad as a root canal.








But it's close. Real close.

[Roquefort Raider]

Just wait for the next book...

[berk]

So - inspired by this thread I've been reading Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune. In fact I just finished Chapterhouse tonight. They really come across to me as two parts of a single large novel. I enjoyed them quite a bit and here are a few random thoughts.

Probably because it's been a long time since I read the other books, my answer to the favourite character question, right now after just finishing these two, would be Darwi Odrade. Apart from generally admirable qualities like intelligence, self-discipline, strength, and charm, which Herbert manages to impart to his character in a convincing way, what impresses me about Odrade is that she was able to question some of the most fundamental assumptions of her culture - that culture in this case being that of the Bene Gesserit order. The Dune series is noteworthy for what might to some appear a callous acceptance of Realpolitik and often brutal manipulation of entire populations by mysterious and powerful organizations (e.g. Bene Gesserit) and individuals (e.g. the Tyrant and Paul Atreides); but in these two books Herbert shows a genuine appreciation for human and personal side of existence, and Odrade is one of his most effective vehicles for showing this aspect of his story. She's all the more effective in this role precisely because Herbert doesn't go maudlin on the reader and turn her into a weepy, over-emotional romantic heroine; she remains cool, collected, and self-possessed to the last, but is still able to recognize that there is more to life than being self-possessed, and that her Sisterhood is going to ahve to rediscover and accept the validity of the emotional side of human existence if it is to remain a viable entity. Herbert did a good job of showing the stresses of leadership and how much pressure she was under to conform to cultural norms of behaviour. I also liked the intricacy and insightfulness of her plan for saving the Bene Gesserit in the face of utterly overwhelming odds in their struggle to survive the onslaught of the Honoured Matres, including the self-sacrifice it involved, a sacrifice devoid of ostentatious dramatics, even within her own psyche.

I thought Lucilla was a cool character too and was disappointed when Herbert killed her off so early in Chapterhouse.

Anyone who wants to see an example of good, strong female characters in a science fiction setting would do well to look at Herbert's work, especially the Dune series, and especially the latter 2 or 3 books of that series. It certainly makes an interesting contrast with the state of mainstram comics.

I wonder how many readers have no trouble accepting Herbert's brutally honest comments on politics and written history in the context of the novel, but fail to apply the concepts to current events in the "real" world. I had a quote I was going to use to illustrate what I mean but I can't find it right now. It basically said that all conflicts can be traced to struggles for economic and political power, and so on. I'm afraid there are probably a lot of readers who have no problem with this idea while they're reading Dune, but would be shocked if someone suggested they apply it to a situation like the American invasion of Iraq.


Change of subject:
Check out this quote from Heretics (nothing to do with what I was talking about above):

"From the most ancient times the knowledgeable had preferred to surround themselves with fine woodsrather than with the mass produced artificial materials known then as polastine, polaz, and pormabat ... As far back as the Old Empire there had been a pejorative label for the small rich and Families Minor arising from the knowledge of a rare wood's value. "He's a three P-O," they said, meaning that such a person surrounded himself with cheap copies made from declasse substances. Even when the supremely rich were forced to employ one of the distressful three P-O's they disguised it where possible ..."

Seems pretty innocous, right? But my question to you Dune fans is: considering when this was written (early 80's), is this a veiled jab at Lucas's then recent Star Wars series, (using C-Threepio to stand for the Star Wars series as a whole)? It may be a stretch, but for some reason I'd like to think so, even though I do like the first two Star Wars movies.

[Roquefort Raider]

Pretty good analysis of Odrade, Berk. She's one of my very favorite characters in the series too. You're right in pointing out Herbert's ability in creating strong women; that's a talent far too rare in pop literature.

As for your musings:

But my question to you Dune fans is: considering when this was written (early 80's), is this a veiled jab at Lucas's then recent Star Wars series, (using C-Threepio to stand for the Star Wars series as a whole)? It may be a stretch, but for some reason I'd like to think so, even though I do like the first two Star Wars movies.

I would have dismissed it as coincidence, but Herbert
did sue Lucas over the similarities between the imperial setting of Star Wars and that of Dune... So you may have picked up a genuine camouflaged reference that had totally eluded me! I don't think the similarities are so important as to be called plagiarism, but that's the world we live in...

(btw, I picked up a totally unrelated star wars reference in Neil Gaiman's "season of mists" this morning: Odin refers to Loki as "Loki Sky-Walker", which phonetically sounds a lot like you know who).

Cheers,


- Ben

[berk]

After finishing Chapterhouse my first inpression was that Herbert definitely intended to continue the series; but looking at RR's description of the book, with his observation that the elderly couple represent Herbert and his wife, maybe I'm wrong. Remeber how at the end, the old man laments that Sheeana, Duncan Idaho and the others on the No-ship have escaped him and the plans he'd had for them (I think he says something like "I had such a noce planet picked out for them") and are now independant agents, I wonder if this was Herbert's way of saying good bye to the characters, and by extension, to the series. Perhaps he didn't feel like continuing after the death of his wife. On the other hand, it might have been nothing more than a reference to the way some characters seem to take on a life of their own and "write themselves", as is often observed by authors.

If the owners of the Dune franchise really feel it's necessary to continue producing books set in the Dune Universe, maybe they should just throw it wide open to other writers. I could see someone writing a story about young acolytes in the Bene Gesserit training system a la Harry Potter, for example.

[Celisasu]

Just keep Brian Herbert and Keven J. Anderson far far far away from Dune. I think they're doing a better job of killing it than Lucas is of killing Star Wars.


And yeah, Darwi Odrade was my favorite character in the Dune series as well. Strong woman, interesting character, she has her doubts but she goes on despite them.

[howyadoin]

Remeber how at the end, the old man laments that Sheeana, Duncan Idaho and the others on the No-ship have escaped him and the plans he'd had for them (I think he says something like "I had such a noce planet picked out for them") and are now independant agents, I wonder if this was Herbert's way of saying good bye to the characters, and by extension, to the series.I'd say that's a likely take on the situation. And I like the open-endedness; to me it seems like there's a universe of possibility out there for Duncan.

[berk]

Another question for you Dune fans about Heretics and Chapterhouse:

Do you think the whole concept of the Scattering was meant to make some sort of statement about the European expansion into "the New World"? I don't think Herbert was making a simplistic, one-to-one correspondence, but there were a few passages that made me wonder if he wasn't using the people of the Scattering to make a comment about Anglo-North American culture (don't know enough about Latin America to have any idea whether that would fit in anywhere). I wish I could find the exact passage - one problem with Herbert's philosophical meanderings (which I enjoy in and of themselves) and lack of chapter headings is that I can never remember exactly where in the book I read such and such interesting passage. But basically, there were a few places where he more or less talked about the effects of the Scattering on the people who underwent it - how the struggle for survival could in some cases, if severe enough, strip a society of all finer feelings and ability to appreciate subtleties until they looked at everything in terms of nothing more than its potential usefulness, even when their actual material situation had improved to the point where they no longer had any need to limit themselves in such a manner. Hence the crudeness of the Honoured Matres outlook on life - everything was either an avenue or an obstacle to power for them. On the other hand, they had a vitality and forcefulness to them that was reflected in their powerful emotions (even though these were uncontrolled and almost all negative - lust for power & revenge, etc) and their physical superiority (at least as far as speed was concerned). And in one sense you could say that Herbert's ending shows that the old Galactic civilization, as represented by the Bene Gesserit, stood in need of that vitality, and that the Scattering stood in need of the self-control and wisdom the older civilization had to offer. (I'm not necessarily saying that I think this aspect of the concept can be transferred to our real-life situation). Anyway, those were some of my muddled thoughts on the subject. Does anyone remember any of this stuff from when they read the books? Sorry I can't find the actual quotes, then you might have something more concrete to judge by.

[Roquefort Raider]

Wow!

Pretty good analysis, berk.

I'm not sure that Herbert meant to comment on the European "scattering" in North America, but he certainly based his concepts on such past events; the migration of humans into hostile territories certainly produced amazing cultural adaptations (I'm thinking of the Inuit culture in which absolutely nothing is wasted because of the very severe environment they live in).

The Honored Matres might have gone back up the cultural ladder eventually, if they had time to settle down somewhere. But from what I read between the lines of heretics and chapterhouse, they had been pushed into a defensive stance by an unknown agent (against which they bred the futars, I imagine) for a very long time, and their entire society was geared toward gaining power to ensure their own survival.

I'm quite happy that the enemy was never revealed. Not seeing the adversary is way more anguishing than having it in front of us. I'd be very upset if Herbert Jr did write Dune 7 and showed us that the enemy was, for example, some lame-o robot society from the prequels... eyuchh!!!

Cheers,

- Ben

[Maniacle Mike]

Just keep Brian Herbert and Keven J. Anderson far far far away from Dune. I think they're doing a better job of killing it than Lucas is of killing Star Wars.


And yeah, Darwi Odrade was my favorite character in the Dune series as well. Strong woman, interesting character, she has her doubts but she goes on despite them.

Ironically, before the NEW dune books were written. I had read a few Star Wars novels written by KJ Anderson. Actually, his strong ties to the SW books probably was a big part of his resume in becoming Brian Herberts co-author.

Freaky huh? Lucas ripps Herbert, Anderson ripps Lucas, in which case Lucas helps Anderson destroy the hopes of good new Dune novels. Sad aint it?

[atoningunifex]

I have avoided and avoided and avoided this thread for one reason....I knew it would make me want to re-read the first four Dune books and then read the last two for the first time.

*sighs*


It is such a burden.....but somehow I'll bear up under it. :)

[howyadoin]

I have avoided and avoided and avoided this thread for one reason....I knew it would make me want to re-read the first four Dune books and then read the last two for the first time.

*sighs*


It is such a burden.....but somehow I'll bear up under it.So have you officially caved, or do you need a bit of arm-twisting first?

[atoningunifex]

So have you officially caved, or do you need a bit of arm-twisting first?

Oh, I've caved. I'm cavey like caved creatured.

[Solaris]

Have fun, and don't forget to use the Litany when needed! :D

(PS---when you get to them, stick with the last two books: they're a bit jumpy at times, but my absolute favorite character from the Duneverse is in them---Miles Teg. Read, and you'll see why.)

:D

[jadegiant77]

What DUNE 7 should be...

Ten years have passed. Duncan, Sheanna, and Teg have settled on a new world which they have terraformed into a new Dune, complete with sandworms. Sheanna is pregnant with Duncan's child. She is hailed with universal fervor as a holy woman who can talk to the worms and a new religion is forming around her. Meanwhile, the Tlexiau (whats his name...the one who came with them?) has created an axlotl tank and grown gholas of Mua'a dib, Chani, and Duncan with the intention of forming a rival religion to that of Sheanna.

MEANWHILE again, the absorbtion of the Honored Matres into the Bene Gesserit is not going smoothly. Mother Superior(damn can't remember her name either, you know the former Honored Matre) has to fight off challengers to her position on a daily basis. She is also disturbed by the Church of Sheanna and seeks to eliminate it once and for all by cutting off the head of the beast(sheanna). More troubling, the Force that chased the Honored Matres back into the known universe and created the Futars is coming back, and they don't seem to distinguish Matre from Bene Gesserit... A final battle is looming. What part do those omnipotent Face Dancers from Chapter house dune play?


what dune 7 will be:

Giant robots and kung-fu.

[Solaris]

What DUNE 7 should be...

Ten years have passed. Duncan, Sheanna, and Teg have settled on a new world which they have terraformed into a new Dune, complete with sandworms. Sheanna is pregnant with Duncan's child. She is hailed with universal fervor as a holy woman who can talk to the worms and a new religion is forming around her. Meanwhile, the Tlexiau (whats his name...the one who came with them?) has created an axlotl tank and grown gholas of Mua'a dib, Chani, and Duncan with the intention of forming a rival religion to that of Sheanna.

MEANWHILE again, the absorbtion of the Honored Matres into the Bene Gesserit is not going smoothly. Mother Superior(damn can't remember her name either, you know the former Honored Matre) has to fight off challengers to her position on a daily basis. She is also disturbed by the Church of Sheanna and seeks to eliminate it once and for all by cutting off the head of the beast(sheanna). More troubling, the Force that chased the Honored Matres back into the known universe and created the Futars is coming back, and they don't seem to distinguish Matre from Bene Gesserit... A final battle is looming. What part do those omnipotent Face Dancers from Chapter house dune play?


what dune 7 will be:

Giant robots and kung-fu.


The Honored Matre/Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother is Murbella.

I found it interesting that the newest Duncan was able to evade the "Net" of these omnipotent Face Dancers, and send their ship to unknown random coordinates, in "Heretics." Thing is, they didn't have near enough people on that ship to start a new population... IIRC, you need at least 40,000 to have enough people and enough genetic variety... BUT, they had the vial in the Tleilaxu's chest (Waff's?) with an entire race's genes... plus, with him being there, if they create tanks, they could also use their own genes to create and recombine into new combinations, along with the others. Wonder if they did all that?

Of course, that's assuming that the planet they went to was uninhabited...

[jadegiant77]

I never thought about that...I just naively assumed the four of them (including Waff) landed on some deserted(no pun intended) back water world and set up shop. I guess they could have found a world populated with humans from The Scattering and founded a new religion there...

[Solaris]

I never thought about that...I just naively assumed the four of them (including Waff) landed on some deserted(no pun intended) back water world and set up shop. I guess they could have found a world populated with humans from The Scattering and founded a new religion there...


Well... all we know from the end of the book is that Duncan had dumped all their star charts from the computer memory, and spun the navigational settings to send them to a random location... and the stars they saw when they came out of hyper were unrecognizable to them. We don't know if they went to a Scattering world, or some completely new place, whether they had to search for a while to find a *habitable* world, whether there were people already there, etc. Herbert left it wide open at that point, so pretty much anything goes with that. Hee. :)

[atoningunifex]

Okay, I've finished Heretics of Dune and am about to start Chapterhouse Dune.

I found Heretics to be an odd read. I didn't dislike it, but it was choppy. And was it me or did the ending seem totally rushed? I felt like I'd missed two or three chapters in there. And while I liked Miles a lot (and I really liked the pain agony and what it did to him) I felt a little cheated that he died at the end. I would assume he's going to be ghola-ized, but still.

I'm gonna read Chapterhouse and see if it answers some of the questions I had and gives me more of a complete feeling.

[Headhunter]

Watched the 2 miniseries, that's my exposure...quite well done, gotta check out the books at some point.

[The Batman]

i've just started reading the Dune series. i'm going to probably limit myself to the Frank Herbert books. i've just finished Dune and i'll probably start Dune Messiah either tonight or tomorrow, depending on when i can get to Chapters to pick it up.

Herbert's Dune is easily one of my favourite books and i'm hoping that the rest of the series can hold up to the promise of the first book.

[Headhunter]

Enjoyed the made for TV miniseries quite a lot, but found the books dense while browsing at the bookstore/library. Seems too convoluted for me to read without making a huge commitment to the universe...

[howyadoin]

i've just started reading the Dune series. i'm going to probably limit myself to the Frank Herbert books.Good plan. The others are garbage.

[Roquefort Raider]

Good plan. The others are garbage.


"Let me put this human baby in a cuisinart to see what it does!" said the nasty-looking evil robot.

"Brrrrzt!!!" went the device, its blade turning around madly like the plot of a poorly-conceived sequel.

"Mmmmmh..." pondered the robot. "Interesting. But is it art"?



I hope that Frank, up there on his cloud, is blissfully unaware of what his son did to his Dune universe!

[Karl J. Barnes]

"Let me put this human baby in a cuisinart to see what it does!" said the nasty-looking evil robot.

"Brrrrzt!!!" went the device, its blade turning around madly like the plot of a poorly-conceived sequel.

"Mmmmmh..." pondered the robot. "Interesting. But is it art"?



I hope that Frank, up there on his cloud, is blissfully unaware of what his son did to his Dune universe!

That is a sick analogy,Ben. But right on the spot, but sick.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

you know, that alone is worth more than the abomination that is the prequel-series.

:D

[howyadoin]

"Brrrrzt!!!" went the device, its blade turning around madly like the plot of a poorly-conceived sequel.I do love a good simile.

[Nadir]

So what IS the general opinion of the mini-series that sci-fi put out? After reading up to God Emperor (couldnt...quite....sustain...momentum) I actually found them to do a good job of distilling the storyline into a "nice little sci-fi story" without mangling the general impression of the story.

Note: that doesnt put them in the same category, just similar enough to keep the name. Any bets on if sci-fi sought the OK from Brian, and he pre-supposed his interpretation of the story on them?

What I suggest to folks is this
"I want to learn about Dune"
"If you want a neat sci-fi thriller, watch the movies, they contain exactly that"
"If you want a spiritual, political, thought provoking well written book, read Frank Herbert"
"Watch the movies (original and both sci-fi's) to get your basic 'who does what' out of the way...then read the books...prepare to think...and try to avoid worrying about the general nuances of story, allow yourself to actually get an idea of what herbert was writing like. This will arm you to tackle the later stories with the proper frame of mind"

[howyadoin]

So what IS the general opinion of the mini-series that sci-fi put out?I never saw the mniniseries, but I never pass up an opportunity to say how much I hated the movie.

[Nate C.]

I never pass up an opportunity to say I loved it (in the face of overwhelming opposition).

BTW, I can't find my dune books. An entire box of paperback books is missing since we moved a year and a half ago, and I just can't find them.

I was really hoping they would get me through nursing school, as they would be a great distraction from my studies.

[Nadir]

I never pass up an opportunity to say I loved it (in the face of overwhelming opposition).

BTW, I can't find my dune books. An entire box of paperback books is missing since we moved a year and a half ago, and I just can't find them.

I was really hoping they would get me through nursing school, as they would be a great distraction from my studies.

For the price of 2-3 comics you can get new copies of each

[Nadir]

For the price of 2-3 comics you can get new copies of each

I believe Patrick Stewart to be the only realy REDEEMING feature to the movie..the FX are just too archaic for me to get into, but it DOES give you the basic Atredies/Harkonnen structure.

For the record most Dune junkies I've spoken to in person also think that the mini-series sucked ass too.

[howyadoin]

I never pass up an opportunity to say I loved it (in the face of overwhelming opposition).Really? You loved the Baron Harkonnen being a human helium balloon? You loved the FX that couldn't even stand up to 1960s standards?


That is shitty about losing the books, though. Any good used-book stores in your area?

[Nadir]

Really? You loved the Baron Harkonnen being a human helium balloon? You loved the FX that couldn't even stand up to 1960s standards?


That is shitty about losing the books, though. Any good used-book stores in your area?

At least it was in color :)

[Nate C.]

Really? You loved the Baron Harkonnen being a human helium balloon? You loved the FX that couldn't even stand up to 1960s standards?


That is shitty about losing the books, though. Any good used-book stores in your area?

I know you'll understand this-

Lynch got two things right.

Tone

and

Heart.

(And those don't need updating)

as for the books, they're around here somewhere, I'm sure. I just have to find one last box of books. (You'd think that would be easy, wouldn't you?)

regardless, reading the dune series was a huge joy for me about four years ago and I will read them again the next two.

[JadeDragon]

OOH! OOH!

I had to skip a lot of this thread for now, cuz I just started reading book one of DUNE for the first time. Dont want 2 many spoilers! But I'll come back and contribute after I finish the first book.

Its hard to believe that I made it this far into my geekhood without reading these classics! Now I have to consume these so I can have an intelligent conversation about it with my little brothers. Who LOVE Dune. :)

So far its pretty cool. Im not far yet, not even on Arakis yet. But Im liking it and Im in it for the long haul. Too many people I know swear by how great these books are.

I'll be back! Glad to see so many folks excited about these books!

Cheers!~~~JadeDragon

[howyadoin]

I know you'll understand this-

Lynch got two things right.

Tone

and

Heart.See, I don't think he did. He totally ignored a lot of the sociopolitical undertones that are the core of the book, and he doesn't give you a whole lotta insight into Paul's character, either.
OOH! OOH!

I had to skip a lot of this thread for now, cuz I just started reading book one of DUNE for the first time.Damn, I'd love to be starting out on that journey again.

[Nadir]

See, I don't think he did. He totally ignored a lot of the sociopolitical undertones that are the core of the book, and he doesn't give you a whole lotta insight into Paul's character, either.
Damn, I'd love to be starting out on that journey again.

Its like going camping, loaded with supplies for a week. and knowing you wont run out of the GOOD supplies all week. The anticipation pales before the reality.

[Nate C.]

See, I don't think he did. He totally ignored a lot of the sociopolitical undertones that are the core of the book, and he doesn't give you a whole lotta insight into Paul's character, either.
Damn, I'd love to be starting out on that journey again.

Well those are details, right?

I'm talking tone (the way a movie "feels"- and the movie felt very "Frank Herbert-Dunish to me)

and heart (getting the spirit of the movie if not the details of the movie).

Anyway, maybe not, but that's the way I see it.

(The book is too complex to get all the details in, unless you go mini-series, and frankly the miniseries seemed sterile to me.)

[Roquefort Raider]

Well those are details, right?

I'm talking tone (the way a movie "feels"- and the movie felt very "Frank Herbert-Dunish to me)

and heart (getting the spirit of the movie if not the details of the movie).

Anyway, maybe not, but that's the way I see it.

(The book is too complex to get all the details in, unless you go mini-series, and frankly the miniseries seemed sterile to me.)


I see your point about tone and heart, but I'd go further than to say the book simply was too complex detail-wise for a faithful adaptation: it was also too complex heart-wise to do so.

The vendetta aspect, the psychological tensions, even the sense of unstoppable historical forces were all there. However, as Howie said, the political aspects were pretty much ignored, and what (in my opinion) is worse is that the religious aspect itself was not particularly stressed... Paul comes across as more of a charismatic war-chief than as a proper mahdi.

I also regret that the Fremen didn't look Arab at all, but that's a question of aesthetics. I think that Lynch wanted to do something unexpected with this movie; therefore, it looked neither like Star Wars nor like the classical visions of the Dune universe. In that regard I feel he did well: although it was nothing at all like what my mind's eye had seen in the novels, I could believe in the world Lynch created.

[howyadoin]

Well those are details, right?I think that's the source of our disagreement - to me those aren't details; they're the foundation the books are built on, and either Lynch didn't notice them, or he didn't think they were important.

Either way, he's clearly not getting the book at all, just seizing on a few surface details and throwing out the subtext. For a guy who's supposedly such a visionary, that's pretty surprising.

[Nate C.]

Roquefort and Howya,

I respect both of you gentlemen, and see your perspective. (Howy, I agree with you that the details are important, but felt that compromise is neccessary when transferring such a complex, rich work into 2 hours running time. That's why I mentioned the mini-series as a better format).

More importantly, is finding my copies this fall. grrrrrrr.

(at least I picked up three new paperbacks to tide me over till I find them).

[The Dosadi Experiment]

David Lynch made a movie that captured the visual style of the novels perfectly, although we have much to thank to the people working with him for that.
Costumes looked gorgeous, original design on the ships and the Guild Navigator. Stilsuits, which looked nothing like the ones described in the book, still felt very much like they came from the book, they fitted into the whole image.

The story however was butchered horribly. But I understand in part why it was butchered. Back in the day movies weren't usually two hours long, and they didn't deal with complex socio-political issues. Entertainments back then was very much just that. Simpler times.

Lynch made a movie that tried very hard to be more than just entertainment, but he also tried to make the movie one that could be exploited on a commercial level.
It ended up as a rather inaccesible flick, fans might have loved the visual side, but were aware that the story suffered, those unfamilair were thrown back by a science fiction movie that had obviously more going on beneath the surface than they could grasp.

The mini-series captured the story better, but the visual aspects of the mini-series were too bright, too cheerful. There was hardly any dark edge, it didn't feel classic, it felt a bit ordinary, below budget.

You can watch the mini-series and see a more elaborate story unfolding.

Certain issues were changed, things were presented a bit simpler and down to earth, and that made the story accesible to a new audience, but also to an experienced audience.

Adapting a book as complex as Dune to any screen is impossible. You have to make sacrifices in order to make the story fit. It's too subtle, too deep, and too confronting to ever be adapted literally to the screen.

I'm glad with both the mini-series, as I'm glad with David Lynch's version. Both give something that makes other people want to read the novels, and I applaud that.

Besides Lynch admitted that he had to do Dune, he had to get it out of his system to move on. An obligation to the company he was working for or something like that.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I really, really dug David Lynch's Dune, far more than the tedious mini-series.

Yeah, a clearly complex story had been hacked-up and compressed into 2 hours, but I think the movie did a fine job of establishing the vibe of Dune.

[Karl J. Barnes]

I really, really dug David Lynch's Dune, far more than the tedious mini-series.

Yeah, a clearly complex story had been hacked-up and compressed into 2 hours, but I think the movie did a fine job of establishing the vibe of Dune.

Have you seen Lynch's 4 hour version? A lot better with much more detail and intrigue.

[Nate C.]

Have you seen Lynch's 4 hour version? A lot better with much more detail and intrigue.

I plan on picking that up at the next convention I go to.

[Nadir]

Have you seen Lynch's 4 hour version? A lot better with much more detail and intrigue.

Have you seen the 6 hour one? hehe buddy of mine picked it up, now has all three...insanely long, far more depth, and NO i still havent watched it...could really hold on about 20 minutes into the original 2 hour one :)

[Nadir]

OOH! OOH!

I had to skip a lot of this thread for now, cuz I just started reading book one of DUNE for the first time. Dont want 2 many spoilers! But I'll come back and contribute after I finish the first book.

Its hard to believe that I made it this far into my geekhood without reading these classics! Now I have to consume these so I can have an intelligent conversation about it with my little brothers. Who LOVE Dune. :)

So far its pretty cool. Im not far yet, not even on Arakis yet. But Im liking it and Im in it for the long haul. Too many people I know swear by how great these books are.

I'll be back! Glad to see so many folks excited about these books!

Cheers!~~~JadeDragon

Something I've always wanted to do, from a people watcher/nosy bastard/book fan. Dont suppose you wanna give your impressions of the characters AS you read the stories? Could be entertaining to see them from a "First reading" point of view. Just a thought, I'm too damn lazy to plop down and read them ALL yet

[comicsarefun]

;) I have just finished the Road to Dune, quite a good read. The story Spice World was an interesting look at the "history" of Dune. I always enjoy reading books on how a favorite book of mine came to be.
I have enjoyed all of the Dune movies, they are fun to watch. I find it interesting to see what someone else felt was important.

[howyadoin]

Something I've always wanted to do, from a people watcher/nosy bastard/book fan. Dont suppose you wanna give your impressions of the characters AS you read the stories? Could be entertaining to see them from a "First reading" point of view. Just a thought, I'm too damn lazy to plop down and read them ALL yetI'd love to see that, too. And I've read them all several times.

(The Frank Herbert ones, anyway.)

[Nadir]

I'd love to see that, too. And I've read them all several times.

(The Frank Herbert ones, anyway.)

and Mr. Jade Dragon STILL hasnt read them once. :)

<pokes Jade> whether or not the 1st book has you unexcited...ya gotta hang out to book 3!

[Jagatai_Khan]

Litany Against Fear. For a second there I was thinking "Warhammer 40k" and then remembered that it's part of Dune. :)

Yes. Along with pretty much everything else in 40k, it originated in Dune. :D

[Rabid Trekkie]

Just read Dune for the first time. I can understand why some compare it to Lord of the Rings (that's a good thing in my book) and I really enjoyed it.

What, if any, of the rest of the series should I read?

[howyadoin]

Just read Dune for the first time. I can understand why some compare it to Lord of the Rings (that's a good thing in my book) and I really enjoyed it.

What, if any, of the rest of the series should I read?Read all of the original series. It kinda bogs in the middle, but the final two books make it worthwhile.

And don't touch the lame fanfic that his son co-wrote. That guy must have some serious daddy issues to try tearing down everything his father accomplished.

[Ite]

Just got the new Dune Extended Edition and i'm really interested in trying to read the book series, well the original series by Frank Herbert.

[The Batman]

well Dune is a great book but it's different from the movie which was also really good. definately worth reading at any rate, at least the Frank Herbert stuff.

[Matt K]

I decided to give my input on the books. I read the first 4 when I was in 6-7th grade and pretty much disliked God Emporor and stopped after that book. A fee years later I read the last 2 and wasn't a big fan of either. FOr whatever reason didn't understand the deal with the couple at the end and just disliked the rest of the books.

Anyhow so I decided to reread the series in December (and finished the last book today) and I can't figure out what I disliked on my first reading. I thoroughly enjoyed the last 2 books and even God Emporor was a good read.

My only problem with the books was some of the stuff just seemded so over my head that I couldn't grasp it. GE was especially rough and I'm sure there was some significance to Duncan especially his role in the last half of the series. Overall though rereading the books about 10 years later I enjoy the fact that I was able to pick up on things I didn;t see previously. Also I really enjoyed Heretics and Chapterhouse. Now if someone could atleast explain to me what the deal was with Dunacan being "stretched thin", being able to see the Couple and his mental weapons catalogue.

[howyadoin]

Now if someone could atleast explain to me what the deal was with Dunacan being "stretched thin", being able to see the Couple and his mental weapons catalogue.Well, Duncan is essentially the Tleilaxu's version of the Kwisatz Haderach. The Duncan who's alive at the end is kind of the sum total of all the Duncan gholas. I'd say that's why he can see the Face Dancers.

Either that, or in a more post-modern take, he can see Frank Herbert and his wife.

[Ite]

What is the state of television and radio in the Dune books? Is tv outlawed? I was wondering because man what they heck do they do to entertain themselves, it's 10,000 something AD right?

[Roquefort Raider]

What is the state of television and radio in the Dune books? Is tv outlawed? I was wondering because man what they heck do they do to entertain themselves, it's 10,000 something AD right?

Roughly speaking, yes.

TV and radio are rarely mentioned in most SF stories. My guess is that in any advanced society, these forms of entertainment would be

WE INTERRUPT THIS POST FOR THIS IMPORTANT MESSAGE.

"GEE, LARRY, WHAT A GREAT LOOKING WINDSHIELD!"
"YEAH, WELL, I TRUSTED MY WINDSHIELD TO BUGS-B-GONE, THE SPECIALIST IN WINDSHIELD CLEANING!"
"I REALLY WISH MINE WOULD LOOK THAT CLEAN!"
"JIMMY... YOU DON'T HAVE A WINDSHIELD! YOU RIDE A BICYCLE!"
<canned laughter: "ah ah ah ah" >



Where were we? Oh, yeah... these forms of entertainment would be replaced by something else.

In the Dune universe, we know they enjoy live music, bullfighting, gladiatorial games, and long dinners in which all the guests try to outwit each other.

Although I guess that SURVIVOR: DUNE would get quite high ratings. :)

[berk]

Although I guess that SURVIVOR: DUNE would get quite high ratings. :)Heh. What a shock the contestants would be in for. Season 2 would be even better: Salusa Secundus - the winner gets to join the Sardaukar. Not that there'd be any winners, which would be the fun part of course.

[Roquefort Raider]

Heh. What a shock the contestants would be in for. Season 2 would be even better: Salusa Secundus - the winner gets to join the Sardaukar. Not that there'd be any winners, which would be the fun part of course.

The same thing happened when they tried SURVIVOR: PANDORA. None of the contestants made it to the first commercial pause. And the camera crew was eaten by hooded dashers.

[howyadoin]

TV and radio are rarely mentioned in most SF stories.Same thing with telephones, in the case of Dune. Fall-out from the Jihad, maybe?

[The Dosadi Experiment]

if there is such a thing as a tv-culture in Dune it's firmly in the hands of politicians and the Bene Geserit.

It's the only influence that Herbert left out... everything has its balance, one faction to counter the other... but the only group not represented is the media.... which is why I suspect that it's being monitored and controlled by an already established faction.

The Bene Gesserit operate on a very small scale as well as on a big scale, they're the most likely candidates. The Tleilaxu probably have their own...

but then again, we might just look at cultures in our day and time who don't have a television set handy...

[Roquefort Raider]

Same thing with telephones, in the case of Dune. Fall-out from the Jihad, maybe?

Now that you mention it... caricatures are rather sparse in the Dune universe, too.

[howyadoin]

It's the only influence that Herbert left out... everything has its balance, one faction to counter the other... but the only group not represented is the media.... which is why I suspect that it's being monitored and controlled by an already established faction.I doubt there is any media. Most communication seems to be done either privately, or by sending in legions of Sardaukar.

[berk]

Maybe we don't see any sort of mass media in the Dune series for the simple reason that Herbert's narrative isn't much concerned with the masses. In the Dune universe, the culture - for all humanity - is an aristocratic one and Herbert's story is about the aristocrats. Pop culture isn't addressed because aristocrats don't participate in it.

The only two references to entertainment or the arts that come to mind right now are Gurney Halleck's music and the Harkonnen officer who was addicted to a combination of some drug and a particular kind of music (a concept I remember thinking worthy of further exploration). Halleck comes across to me as a man of the masses in some ways, and I always imagined his music as the sort of genuine folk or "traditional" music that rises from the people themselves (as opposed the mass-marketed stuff that's sold to them by economic elites for profit). The Harkonnen officer's addiction, IIRC, was used by the Baron as a means of control over him, which I suppose might or might not have been a metaphor for the way entertainment media and drugs are used to keep the population anaesthetised and quiescent.

[Solaris]

if there is such a thing as a tv-culture in Dune it's firmly in the hands of politicians and the Bene Geserit.

It's the only influence that Herbert left out... everything has its balance, one faction to counter the other... but the only group not represented is the media.... which is why I suspect that it's being monitored and controlled by an already established faction.

The Bene Gesserit operate on a very small scale as well as on a big scale, they're the most likely candidates. The Tleilaxu probably have their own...

but then again, we might just look at cultures in our day and time who don't have a television set handy...

Has anyone read the biography of Herbert that Brian Herbert wrote? I saw it in the bookstore the other day, and I'm curious if the biography answers this question.

[Solaris]

Well, Duncan is essentially the Tleilaxu's version of the Kwisatz Haderach. The Duncan who's alive at the end is kind of the sum total of all the Duncan gholas. I'd say that's why he can see the Face Dancers.

Either that, or in a more post-modern take, he can see Frank Herbert and his wife.


LOL! I often wondered that as well---were the two face dancers growing black roses, one of which was a man in a pork-pie hat, representative of Frank and his wife? Sort of a "coming full circle" kind of thing? Definitely humorous thought.

[howyadoin]

Maybe we don't see any sort of mass media in the Dune series for the simple reason that Herbert's narrative isn't much concerned with the masses. In the Dune universe, the culture - for all humanity - is an aristocratic one and Herbert's story is about the aristocrats. Pop culture isn't addressed because aristocrats don't participate in it.Now that is a very good point.

I certainly don't see anything along the lines of organized newsmedia existing in that universe, though - they'd be so hamstrung by the Emperor, they'd be irrelevant.

[Solaris]

Now that is a very good point.

I certainly don't see anything along the lines of organized newsmedia existing in that universe, though - they'd be so hamstrung by the Emperor, they'd be irrelevant.


I also think berk has hit a good point... that really makes sense. So does the fact that in such a "controlled" culture, media would be hamstrung by the Emperor.

Mass media would likely be more along the lines of many of the drugs available: something there to placate the masses, rather than to educate and inform them.

[Roquefort Raider]

I also think berk has hit a good point... that really makes sense. So does the fact that in such a "controlled" culture, media would be hamstrung by the Emperor.

Mass media would likely be more along the lines of many of the drugs available: something there to placate the masses, rather than to educate and inform them.

A situation that certainly didn't get better as the Atreides replaced the Corrinos as the imperial family. Not only did they control any existing mass media, but they also controlled the state religion.

[howyadoin]

A situation that certainly didn't get better as the Atreides replaced the Corrinos as the imperial family. Not only did they control any existing mass media, but they also controlled the state religion.I guess that's okay if you know with 100% certainty that it'll help preserve the species.

[Chevan]

I've got a question. It's been a couple months since my last read-through of the series, so some details might be off.

In the first couple (book 2?) books, we're introduced to Scytale, and are told that he's a Face Dancer. I don't know if it's stated or implied, but I always got the sense that Face Dancers were more of a lower class, and not of the 'upper Tleilaxu'. The thing is, in the later books, Scytale shows up again, and he's a Tleilaxu Master (is that the right term?) and no mention is made of his being a Face Dancer.

So, what happened? Continuity error? Was the name of the Master a homage to the original Scytale?

[Matt K]

I've got a question. It's been a couple months since my last read-through of the series, so some details might be off.

In the first couple (book 2?) books, we're introduced to Scytale, and are told that he's a Face Dancer. I don't know if it's stated or implied, but I always got the sense that Face Dancers were more of a lower class, and not of the 'upper Tleilaxu'. The thing is, in the later books, Scytale shows up again, and he's a Tleilaxu Master (is that the right term?) and no mention is made of his being a Face Dancer.

So, what happened? Continuity error? Was the name of the Master a homage to the original Scytale?

That confused me greatly as well. My best guess was the Scytale was elevated due to his role in creating The Messiah.

[berk]

I also think berk has hit a good point... that really makes sense. So does the fact that in such a "controlled" culture, media would be hamstrung by the Emperor.

Mass media would likely be more along the lines of many of the drugs available: something there to placate the masses, rather than to educate and inform them.Funny you bring this up, because I just remembered another of the rare instances of mass entertainment in Dune: Baron Harkonnen's rigged gladitorial combats - remember, where he used to drug some of the combatants so his favourites would win? Talk about bread and circuses.

[Roquefort Raider]

I guess that's okay if you know with 100% certainty that it'll help preserve the species.

Not to mention the benefits, for humanity's collective mind, of being deprived of things like reality-TV.

[Roquefort Raider]

That confused me greatly as well. My best guess was the Scytale was elevated due to his role in creating The Messiah.

I think Scytale must be a common Tleilaxu name. I don't recall the second one to be a face-dancer himself.

[Solaris]

I think Scytale must be a common Tleilaxu name. I don't recall the second one to be a face-dancer himself.


No, but I seem to remember him having some residual memories of being that particular Scytale.

[Chevan]

No, but I seem to remember him having some residual memories of being that particular Scytale.

That's what I thought, too, so I skimmed through Heretics.

Here's what I turned up. Face Dancers are definitely lower than Tleilaxu Masters: Waff refers to them as constructs and tools in an internal monologue. Also, Solaris is right, Scytale is said to have memories of meeting Paul from a ghola reincarnation chain.

Very puzzling.

[Matt K]

That's what I thought, too, so I skimmed through Heretics.

Here's what I turned up. Face Dancers are definitely lower than Tleilaxu Masters: Waff refers to them as constructs and tools in an internal monologue. Also, Solaris is right, Scytale is said to have memories of meeting Paul from a ghola reincarnation chain.

Very puzzling.

Another puzzling thing is that Scytale in Dune Messiah is an idependent thinker and an important member of the conspiracy. His thoughts throughout the book seem to be different than what I would imagine a face dancer would think.

Another thing is did the Tleilaxu Masters use the Ghola technique before this book or did they use it as a result of what they learned from this book?

If they didn't exist before then Scytale could have easily been promoted due to his role. And perhaps being a mule wasn't such a big deal

[The Dosadi Experiment]

The first Scytale was a face dancer, I think there is some logic to this, after all, the Tleilaxu always did try to hide their inner structures and hierarchies from the outside world.

How far fetched is it to think that Scytale was created to participate in an endavour such as the Conspiracy against Muad'Dib?

At first he was just a tool, but when he discovered the key into awakening Ghola flesh, with Hayt reclaiming his life as Duncan, he earned his place within Tleilaxu ranks. He gained power through prestige, a hero to the Tleilaxu.

After his death he could have been recreated as a ghola and then re-awakened as Scytale, as that option was now open to them.

[Solaris]

There is this, as well...

What if the face dancers start out their development as a normal human, and the change in them occurs from genetic manipulation done during fetal development? When you think about the various things Herbert said/revealed about the axoltl (sp?) tanks, throughout the entire series... I can see hints of this.

If so, the regard of Face Dancers as a lower class, as servants and as tools wouldn't be for the *genes* that make them up; it would be for the fact that they were submitted to the process and are no longer truly "human" in the complete sense of the word. Literally, they *are* "constructs." (In this, Herbert borrowed strongly from scifi stories where clones of "born people" are treated as second class, as servants, as slaves/property, and/or as "disposable" in some fashion.)

Given that Scytale was present during several key moments in Muad 'dib's life, of course they would save his cells and regrow them. And, it's likely that they could reverse the genetic coding that made those original genes into a face dancer in the first place... which would then restore the ghola (once it's regained it's memories) to full human status.

I'm sure they originally cloned Scytale in order to mine his memories of every nuance of his encounters with Paul and the others... but, in the process they also gave Scytale a chance to "move up the ladder." Apparently, over time this particular persona (and it's later incarnations) was able to do so.

OR, the Scytale face dancer was a "special status" one all along. Perhaps prior to the face dancer form, the cells from which it was grown belonged to a living Tleilaxu Master... and they used his cells to create the Scytale face dancer because they thought it would give the face dancer an extra edge of some kind.

Either way, it's obvious that, once they mastered the technique of returning original memories to a ghola, the Tleilaxu capitalized on Scytale's information, and restored his cells to normal human form.

[Erkoban]

but Scytale never graduated to the status of human, he is, even in the later books, referred to as a face dancer.

[Ite]

Just finished Children of Dune.

Wow Leto II is actually superhuman. What are the full extant of his powers? I know he can see even better than Paul and is virtually indestructable.

[berk]

Just finished Children of Dune.

Wow Leto II is actually superhuman. What are the full extant of his powers? I know he can see even better than Paul and is virtually indestructable.The next book in the series, God-Emperor of Dune, provides some answers to your questions.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

superhuman strength, speed, agility, as if he's some sort of augmented human, with impenetrable skin. He's also virtually immortal.

And let's not forget he has a complete vision of things to come.

Of course his superhuman abilities come from the sandtrout, which ends up making him into what he is during God Emperor of Dune.

Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, have plans to develop those early days into a series of novels written for young adults...

and I'm not kidding.

[berk]

superhuman strength, speed, agility, as if he's some sort of augmented human, with impenetrable skin. He's also virtually immortal.

And let's not forget he has a complete vision of things to come.

Of course his superhuman abilities come from the sandtrout, which ends up making him into what he is during God Emperor of Dune.

Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, have plans to develop those early days into a series of novels written for young adults...

and I'm not kidding.You left out the most important thing ... uh, spoiler? HE'S A BIG, FAT, WORM-MAN!!!

[Ite]

I could barelly read Children after awhile, too much talk of life before with the thousands of people that the twins inherited, yadda yadda yadda. I ended up skimming through most the book because it was too boring and overwritten, but for the most part because I hated all the characters. I could not relate to Leto at all like I could Paul, Paul was just such a better character. I skimmed through and read everything with the Preacher, when Leto became symbiote, and the end of the book.

The first two books were great, the third went downhill and I can only imagine what will happen in the next ones.

[Matt K]

I could barelly read Children after awhile, too much talk of life before with the thousands of people that the twins inherited, yadda yadda yadda. I ended up skimming through most the book because it was too boring and overwritten, but for the most part because I hated all the characters. I could not relate to Leto at all like I could Paul, Paul was just such a better character. I skimmed through and read everything with the Preacher, when Leto became symbiote, and the end of the book.

The first two books were great, the third went downhill and I can only imagine what will happen in the next ones.

If you didn't like Children then I'd almost recomend skipping God Emperor and go stright to Heretics. Heretics in my opinion features more relatable characters and is essentially a two part story with Chapterhouse.

[Solaris]

Whereas I found God Emperor to be fascinating all on it's own, as well as being a stepping stone between the past times in books 1-3 and the final two.

It's probably one of my two favorites in the series.

But if you skip it, or read it and don't like it... you've gotta read Heretics. That one has my favorite character in the whole series: Miles Teg. Teg just rocks.

[Matt K]

Whereas I found God Emperor to be fascinating all on it's own, as well as being a stepping stone between the past times in books 1-3 and the final two.

It's probably one of my two favorites in the series.

But if you skip it, or read it and don't like it... you've gotta read Heretics. That one has my favorite character in the whole series: Miles Teg. Teg just rocks.

The reason I suggested skipping it is because its probably the least relatable character wise of any of the books. Essentially its Leto talking about his golden path and a whole bunch of heady concepts. Since Ite disliked Children due to its lack of relatable characters, God Emporer would probably be even worse.

Thankfully for him Heretics and Chapterhouse have a lot of good relatable characters in Sheena, Duncan, Dar, etc. Also its a lot less philisophical.