No stabbing! ...unless it's with an arrow?

[west3man]

I've been wondering about this, but never remembered to post about it.

I knew much more about HAWKEYE than I did GREEN ARROW, then Kevin Smith brought him back to the of the living AND even got somebody like me (who didn't know or care about the character) to dig him. But I don't remember Hawkeye stickin' too many arrows in the bad guys.

When Ollie reappeared, he was using some odd trick arrows, but I noticed that, in a number of those stories, he wasn't just hitting people with boxing glove arrows. Oh no, he and Connor were puttin' arrows in their ASSES (err... the bad guys' asses, that is).


Now, a superhero who goes around chuckin' KNIVES at the bad guys probably wouldn't make it to mainstream... *remembers Wolverine* Hmm. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

But, really, Hawkeye and Green Arrow are quite a ways from WOLVERINE (not just in popularity, but) in the sense that Wolverine is intended to be a berserker who crosses into a certain level of violence.


I guess I'm just wondering why arrows sticking out of bad guys is so... acceptable.

[Jake V]

As long as they aren't killing anyone, the arrows are completely acceptable. 9 times outta 10, they're being shot into someone's shoulder or back or someplace nonlethal, so its not a big deal.

And speaking of mainstream superheroes throwing knives at people... Batman throws batarrangs at the bad guys all the time, and those things are sharp.

[west3man]

As long as they aren't killing anyone, the arrows are completely acceptable. 9 times outta 10, they're being shot into someone's shoulder or back or someplace nonlethal, so its not a big deal.

And speaking of mainstream superheroes throwing knives at people... Batman throws batarrangs at the bad guys all the time, and those things are sharp.
I hadn't seen too much of that until recent years (but then, I'm not as big of a Bat-fan as some).

I mean, he's thrown Bat-a-rangs since the dawn of time or something, but I'm still not used to them sticking out of people as they've been shown in recent years. I remember him using them as long-range, blunt instruments for knocking people the hell out.

But nobody says stabbing folks is okay, as long as you don't kill'em. I'm surprised the imagery isn't a problem.


Again, for me, it's not THAT big of a deal, but I've made note of it a few times and wondered why not.

[ChthonicSpirit]

I've been wondering about this, but never remembered to post about it.

I knew much more about HAWKEYE than I did GREEN ARROW, then Kevin Smith brought him back to the of the living AND even got somebody like me (who didn't now or care about the character) to dig him. But I don't remember Hawkeye stickin' too many arrows in the bad guys.

When Ollie reappeared, he was using some odd trick arrows, but I noticed that, in a number of those stories, he wasn't just hitting people with boxing glove arrows. Oh no, he and Connor were puttin' arrows in their ASSES (err... the bad guys' asses, that is).


Now, a superhero who goes around chuckin' KNIVES at the bad guys probably wouldn't make it to mainstream... *remembers Wolverine* Hmm. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

Its an apt comparison. An arrow is basically a knife point on the end of a flying stick. They make stab wounds, which can kill. Nick the right artery and the person will bleed out in nothing flat. There are such arteries in the shoulder and the leg, two of his common targets.


But, really, Hawkeye and Green Arrow are quite a ways from WOLVERINE (not just in popularity, but) in the sense that Wolverine is intended to be a berserker who crosses into a certain level of violence.


I guess I'm just wondering why arrows sticking out of bad guys is so... acceptable.

I've never felt that it was. It's one of the flaws with Green Arrow that I can see (other then that fact that he is such a creep!) is that he gets away with a lot more then he should. He's been shown shooting arrows into people and then twisting them around to cause more pain as he questions the person. Its never turned me on.


So to speak. :eek:

[Agentum]

GA is a golden age character unlike Hawkeye that ia e mere copy of him basicly, but has of course been given an Marvel personality.

GA used trickarrows until the 80s when Grell did a run with a more serious take on the character, he now used real arrow to fight real crime not supervillians, a dark and more realistic world.
But it's not about that at all, that series is about so much other things then fighting villians, unlike many other superherobooks.

Today GA is the old version before this 80s version again, back to stupid sidekicks, stupid trickarrows and all that i thoght at last where gone.

Who the hell that is supposed to really fight crime and uses a bow(very unlikly in the first place) to do it would shot boxingarrows?
And the stating of intension to kill with every arrow is only stupid this is comics, and in comics GA is good enough to shot the arrow whatever he want, and if the writer says that the victim of the arrow is not serious hurt, he is not, to make up other senarios than what we se in the books is no use.
To crying about how wrong it was for him to do this is no good at all, read other books and just forget about Grells version and the headace will be gone.

To me the was the only good take on GA except the O'neil/Adams verson in the late 60s.

And we have characters like the Punisher thats is about killing.

[west3man]

GA is a golden age character unlike Hawkeye that ia e mere copy of him basicly, but has of course been given an Marvel personality.

GA used trickarrows until the 80s when Grell did a run with a more serious take on the character, he now used real arrow to fight real crime not supervillians, a dark and more realistic world.
But it's not about that at all, that series is about so much other things then fighting villians, unlike many other superherobooks.

Today GA is the old version before this 80s version again, back to stupid sidekicks, stupid trickarrows and all that i thoght at last where gone.

Who the hell that is supposed to really fight crime and uses a bow(very unlikly in the first place) to do it would shot boxingarrows?
And the stating of intension to kill with every arrow is only stupid this is comics, and in comics GA is good enough to shot the arrow whatever he want, and if the writer says that the victim of the arrow is not serious hurt, he is not, to make up other senarios than what we se in the books is no use.
To crying about how wrong it was for him to do this is no good at all, read other books and just forget about Grells version and the headace will be gone.

To me the was the only good take on GA except the O'neil/Adams verson in the late 60s.

And we have characters like the Punisher thats is about killing.
That said, the image of a guy with a bunch of arrows sticking out of him is powerful as hell.

[west3man]

While just reading for enjoyment, I happened to pull up a pretty good example of what I'm talking about.

At the beginning of Archer's Quest, Oliver was displeased to discover that Catman was one of the people who attended his funeral. He and Roy subsequently broke into Catman's home and, when confronted by the Catman, the property owner who, with Cat-a-Rang in-hand tells them not to move, fired twin arrows into Catman, just above or below the collar bones.

Ollie then proceeded to have a conversation with The Shade who soon appeared. They chatted on and on while Roy got annoyed that he didn't know what was going on. During all of this, Catman was still impaled against the wall of his home with blood streaming over his body and his puppies yipping at his ankles in distress.


Now, I was no fan of Meltzer's run on G.A., but I decided to re-read it in case I'll dig it more the second time around. If I'm missing something, please feel free to say so, but it seems to me that...

Catman's only crime, at that moment, was to have attended a funeral some years back and to have told two costumed intruders not to move after they'd broken into his home.


Maybe a previous poster was right and this is the only way to have a badass arrow-toting superhero who's not a joke.

Maybe.

[Agentum]

I don't like this new GA at all, i have read maybe 25-30 of the first books, bot no i hate it.
Whatever he is doing in the new series is nothing i support:D

But Catman is a very lame villian i think :D

[glennsim]

I think both Batman and Green Arrow are getting a free ride because they both started out using non-sharp versions, so when they moved to sharp versions everybody got mildly excited at the gumption to make the change, and then proceeded to turn their heads.

But I do think that GA needs to go back to trick arrows. Otherwise it's just too bloody.

[Agentum]

But he has done that, has this changed a lot recently, those books i read did have him use trickarrows.

[west3man]

But he has done that, has this changed a lot recently, those books i read did have him use trickarrows.
I haven't followed his stories as much recently, but the stories I own show him bouncing back and forth between the trick arrows and the "regular" ones. The trick arrows seem to be reserved for special situations (often involving supervillains), like when that one guy kept catching Ollie's arrows out of the frickin' air.

[Agentum]

Ah ok, they can't decide then.

I always wondered how he and Speedy could find the exactly right arrow all the time in the old stories, they had so many diffrent ones.

And the catapult seats in the car, i kept wishing for them to be run over by their own car.

[west3man]

Ah ok, they can't decide then.

I always wondered how he and Speedy could find the exactly right arrow all the time in the old stories, they had so many diffrent ones.
I think I remember someone asking this about Hawkeye, or maybe it WAS G.A.

The answer *may* have been that the location and feel of the end of the arrows indicated what type it was. So, you just reach back there, and upon tactile inspection, you know you've got the open-the-refrigerator-door-just-to-see-if-there's-anything-good-inside arrow.

[Violently Apathetic]

While just reading for enjoyment, I happened to pull up a pretty good example of what I'm talking about.

At the beginning of Archer's Quest, Oliver was displeased to discover that Catman was one of the people who attended his funeral. He and Roy subsequently broke into Catman's home and, when confronted by the Catman, the property owner who, with Cat-a-Rang in-hand tells them not to move, fired twin arrows into Catman, just above or below the collar bones.

Ollie then proceeded to have a conversation with The Shade who soon appeared. They chatted on and on while Roy got annoyed that he didn't know what was going on. During all of this, Catman was still impaled against the wall of his home with blood streaming over his body and his puppies yipping at his ankles in distress.


Okay, that's pretty grisly. I never much cared for Green Arrow, which is kind of surprising because I tend to like characters with fairly abrasive personalities. I just found him to be pretty contradictory. I mean here's a vocal supporter of liberal values who happens to be perfectly okay with mind wiping friends and enemies, turning his back on drug addicted friends and being needlessly brutal with suspects and criminals...

But then this isn't a 'Why I want to punch Green Arrow in the head' thread...

The thing with the arrows bugs me a little too, but I suppose the argument would be that the trick arrows are too difficult to use plausibly and can occasionally undermine the seriousness of the story. Though I think since Green Arrow was a lame character to start with he really should embrace his inner lamewad. I suppose someone could point out that the massive amounts of blunt force trauma that characters like Batman employ is really quite dangerous as well. Sometimes you have to wonder how they haven't accidently killed someone. With arrows and knives it may come down not to the fact that it is necessarily more violent and deadly, just that it looks that way. Because of the way an arrow goes in, fairly cleanly compared to say a slashing cut with a knife, I suppose it's simply down a tier on the violence/weapons hierarchy. It may be just as deadly, but because it looks a little nicer (and perhaps because it's a novelty? Not many people killed by arrows in this day and age) it's more acceptable?

I dunno, really.

[Agentum]

Most superheroes would probably have severe braindamage.

But it's only in the comics, don't try this at home.

[trickster]

But Catman is a very lame villian i think :D

You haven't read Villains United, have you?

[Agentum]

One thing about GA that people don't get or don't understand is that the good thing about him is that he has flaws, human flaws, he does things wrong.

As in the case in this thread "he is a jackass, he deserted Speedy when he was a heroinist", but the story got so much better this way.
Ollie thinking he know everything being an outspoken left wing man, raising good old Speedy the right way, his way, comfronted with him being a JUNKIE!:D, he drowe him away but he accused himself for the thing as much as he accused Speedy, he felt as he was a failure himself.

O'neil of course started this in a time when DC's heroes really not had any personality at all so there are people that thinks he destroyed their old characters that was all heroes and you could count on (extremly boring to me).

Without this flaws and misstakes he has done and the personality, there are really not much else that would make him intresting, and i'm absolutly possitive that he would not have his own book today, probably he would be in limbo as that Batman carbon copy he really was before all this.

[Agentum]

You haven't read Villains United, have you?
No, thats a bit to new for me, i based it on the old storys of course witch would be relevant too.

[Tom]

Ah ok, they can't decide then.

I always wondered how he and Speedy could find the exactly right arrow all the time in the old stories, they had so many diffrent ones.

There were notches on the shafts indicating which arrow was which.

[Tom]

Now, a superhero who goes around chuckin' KNIVES at the bad guys probably wouldn't make it to mainstream... [/B]
[even bigger nerd]The E2 Huntress used throwing knives, which I always thought were a hell of a lot more interesting than a crossbow (which she also used).[/even bigger nerd]

[west3man]

There were notches on the shafts indicating which arrow was which.wow
My first correct answer to Green Arrow trivia. I'm so proud.

Sadly, I really am.
[even bigger nerd]The E2 Huntress used throwing knives, which I always thought were a hell of a lot more interesting than a crossbow (which she also used).[/even bigger nerd]
I did not KNOW that.

[west3man]

One thing about GA that people don't get or don't understand is that the good thing about him is that he has flaws, human flaws, he does things wrong.

As in the case in this thread "he is a jackass, he deserted Speedy when he was a heroinist", but the story got so much better this way.
Ollie thinking he know everything being an outspoken left wing man, raising good old Speedy the right way, his way, comfronted with him being a JUNKIE!:D, he drowe him away but he accused himself for the thing as much as he accused Speedy, he felt as he was a failure himself.

O'neil of course started this in a time when DC's heroes really not had any personality at all so there are people that thinks he destroyed their old characters that was all heroes and you could count on (extremly boring to me).

Without this flaws and misstakes he has done and the personality, there are really not much else that would make him intresting, and i'm absolutly possitive that he would not have his own book today, probably he would be in limbo as that Batman carbon copy he really was before all this.This kinda confirms some of my suspicions about the character's evolution.

I don't fault DC for giving him a personality and I really don't have a HUGE problem with him stickin' and movin' like he does (in so many ways), but that Catman thing was totally uncalled-for. After finishing the story (of Meltzer's) I now see why I was originally turned off by his G.A. run.

You kinda HAVE to get that Ollie's choice to go on his "Quest" the way he did, making everything so much harder and more dramatic than it needed to be (even with friends and allies), BUT it still fell short in my mind. Maybe that just means that I don't really *get* who Queen really IS, but the contradictions seem to go beyond those that are present in the lives of all human beings.

What I thought was the core of the character has been repeatedly corrupted and the fact that Meltzer was always present, standing in the shadows, with a blood-soaked pencil in his hand, at those times, makes me heavily associate this corruption with him.


All the sex jokes Smith did cracked me up and concerned me, at the same time, but Meltzer left me concerned and unamused. Not the best combination.

[west3man]

Quick question for Tom or whomever may know the answer:

Did the knife-throwing version of Huntress keep up the tried and true (or was that tired...) tradition of never actually stabbing people so much as pinning them to walls by their clothing?


Just wondered if she ever had any, "Is Helena gonna hafta STABABITCH?!" moments.

[filthysize]

Man, I hated Grell's Green Arrow.

His attempt at a dark, gritty story was pretty lame. He was so desperate to make the series realistic that he stripped Black Canary out of her superpowers, just so bad guys can rape her and Ollie can be "forced" to kill the baddies.

Pathetic.

[Captain Jim]

As long as they aren't killing anyone, the arrows are completely acceptable. 9 times outta 10, they're being shot into someone's shoulder or back or someplace nonlethal, so its not a big deal.

Easy for YOU to say!

[Agentum]

This kinda confirms some of my suspicions about the character's evolution.

I don't fault DC for giving him a personality and I really don't have a HUGE problem with him stickin' and movin' like he does (in so many ways), but that Catman thing was totally uncalled-for. After finishing the story (of Meltzer's) I now see why I was originally turned off by his G.A. run.


I think the writers now may be fans to Grells version and the older O'neil/Adams version and it becomes a mess.
I understand what you mean, torturing Catman (even if he was lame) is to much, i don't want a killer with a bow either even if i can justify the use of real arrows.

[Agentum]

There were notches on the shafts indicating which arrow was which.
ah, that was a good one :)
They may have to count to ten at least then :D

But it's better than no explenaison, and good enough.

[Agentum]

Easy for YOU to say!
Yes, i can imagine it will hurt a lot to be shot like that :)

Well, GA is at least something to talk about even if you hate him or like me likes him.
Grells run was 80 issues after the Longbow Hunters mini, so is it about a lot more than that "rape" in the beginging that some believe in their fantasy, so much more.

O'neils/Adams GL/GA with the attityde is only 13 books, it was cancelled, but what an impact.

[ChthonicSpirit]

As long as they aren't killing anyone, the arrows are completely acceptable. 9 times outta 10, they're being shot into someone's shoulder or back or someplace nonlethal, so its not a big deal.



Since when is shooting someone in the back nonlethal?

As for the shoulder, two words: "axial" and "artery".

BTW, I only heard about that his encounter with Catman when it was shown in flashback in Villains United. It was for attending his funeral? All right, that cinches it. Arrow deserved that punch in the face.

[west3man]

Since when is shooting someone in the back nonlethal?

As for the shoulder, two words: "axial" and "artery".

BTW, I only heard about that his encounter with Catman when it was shown in flashback in Villains United. It was for attending his funeral? All right, that cinches it. Arrow deserved that punch in the face.
I didn't even remember having HEARD of a Catman when I read V.U. After rereading Archer's Quest, I absolutely agree with you.

Ollie deserved that punch and much more.

[Slumber Hulk]

ballistically an arrow is more like a bullet than a thrown knife/batarang. Both are very lethal.

I think it's cool that Green Arrow lighting into people with arrows. Who are we kidding? Most baddies need a spanking more than a time out.

[Psychoweasel]

Quick question for Tom or whomever may know the answer:
Did the knife-throwing version of Huntress keep up the tried and true (or was that tired...) tradition of never actually stabbing people so much as pinning them to walls by their clothing?
Just wondered if she ever had any, "Is Helena gonna hafta STABABITCH?!" moments.

The current DCU Helena has never been a 'pinning' type of girl. She and Batman have bumped heads for a LOOOOOOONG time because she IS a "Is Helena gonna hafta STABABITCH?!" kinda girl! That used to be all she DID for a while there. She only stopped doing it recently...

And for the record, I am a HUGE Ollie fan...but this cover still bothers me to this DAY;

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/37047801271.18.GIF

I mean, GOOD LORD! HE HAS AN ARROW IN HIS FREAKIN' EYEBALL!!

[west3man]

The current DCU Helena has never been a 'pinning' type of girl. She and Batman have bumped heads for a LOOOOOOONG time because she IS a "Is Helena gonna hafta STABABITCH?!" kinda girl! That used to be all she DID for a while there. She only stopped doing it recently...

And for the record, I am a HUGE Ollie fan...but this cover still bothers me to this DAY;Thanks. I think they've alluded to that in BoP issues here and there.

I wonder about the previous Helena, as well.
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/37047801271.18.GIF

I mean, GOOD LORD! HE HAS AN ARROW IN HIS FREAKIN' EYEBALL!!
It's interesting how they avoided the eyeball charge by having the arrow in his grasp, completely obscuring the eyeball, thus leaving room for doubt that it actually is IN his eyeball.

Were you concerned about that imagery just on the cover or did the contents of the issue bother you, as well?
How does the fact that they went out of their way to point out that Grundy doesn't feel pain (which surprises me, but I'm not Grundy enthusiast) factor into that?

[Agentum]

double post, this site is often very slow recently, many nev members or what is wrong?

[Agentum]

He is some kind of plant, those need cutting to be ok:D

I think Ollie was better of dead really.
And aboy the "new" Huntress, the mafiaboss kid, i realy like her own book from the 80s, she was not supposed to be like most other superhero girls, not supposed to be very good looking like she have been transformed too in later years.
No teamplayer really doing things in her own way, maybe kill the enemy to get rid of the problem in a direct way.
sometimes i get a little tired of DCs way with self righteous heroes, they need "heroes" that is not so much traditional heroes but fighting criminals in what ways they thinks right, we don't need those moral cakes over and over again.

I don't mean they should be killing for fun, but sometimes it is yours or the enemys life, the worst comes to the worst.
Wrong or right? that can we come up with ourselves.

[ChthonicSpirit]

sometimes i get a little tired of DCs way with self righteous heroes, they need "heroes" that is not so much traditional heroes but fighting criminals in what ways they thinks right, we don't need those moral cakes over and over again.

I don't mean they should be killing for fun, but sometimes it is yours or the enemys life, the worst comes to the worst.
Wrong or right? that can we come up with ourselves.

I would have to agree with you there. I mean, take BOP for instance. In Issue 90, Dinah lectures Creote on why he shouldn't kill the people who were just torturing the one he loves.

Do we remember what Dinah herself did when faced with the same situation? When she found Ollie being tortured in that pages of Green Arrow, she mowed down eight guys with a machine gun.

[Agentum]

Yes, but then again i can understand why they want heroes to be pretty much flawless and models to look up on.

Many would probably be angry if this changed to much, they wan't what they are used to.
But i don't buy that is must be so because of children reading the books.

[Dr. Drake Ramoray]

OK, maybe this is just me, but the way I read Identity Crisis and subsequent touchings on the mind-wipe of Batman, was that Ollie voted against mind-wiping Batman. That was why Ollie and Hawkman came to blows over the issue. But once the decision was made, he stuck with the group. I figured that was why Bats was so amped up to punch out Hawkman in the JLA's book a few months ago. (During the Despero arc).

[west3man]

OK, maybe this is just me, but the way I read Identity Crisis and subsequent touchings on the mind-wipe of Batman, was that Ollie voted against mind-wiping Batman. That was why Ollie and Hawkman came to blows over the issue. But once the decision was made, he stuck with the group. I figured that was why Bats was so amped up to punch out Hawkman in the JLA's book a few months ago. (During the Despero arc).
Even if that's true, he still went along with it. It's like the "good" cops covering for the dirty ones. Everybody's tainted.

In fact, if you read what he said to Wally, "What makes you think it was the only time..." or whatever, he seemed to have no hang-ups about it. So, if he DID vote against the group one time, he eventually bought into their school of thought.

The more I think about it the harder it is for me to get a handle on the character.

[Agentum]

I don't see that that would make him worse than the other ones really.
And that mindwiping stuff is a bit overplayed, i thoght they did that little now and then.
I saw that they had mindwiping as an issue in X-men to, and they really mindwipes a lot:D
But i think it would have been better if Ollie would have shoot dr. light with arrows so he died, so much less to argue about:D
Pretty useless character anyway outside this stuff.

[west3man]

I don't see that that would make him worse than the other ones really.I didn't say it did... or I didn't mean to, anyway.

I said it seems to go against the character's core, as I (mis?)understand it.

[Violently Apathetic]

Well, my problem with Green Arrow's role in the mindwipe is pretty much based on one line in Identity Crisis when he snaps 'If you're through judging...' to Wally. What is Green Arrow if not a self righteous blowhard who spends a great deal of time judging other people? I mean I wouldn't mind that in the slightest if that's just how he is, in fact I kinda like characters like that, but the man is a hypocrite on top of everything else.

In some ways I think he's worse off than Hawkman and the others in favour of the mindwipe. They did what they thought was right, I don't agree, but it's understandable. Green Arrow knew it was wrong, but did it anyway, and that's something that's much worse to me. Hal and the others are in the same boat, but since Ollie is the most vocal he tends to stand out more.

[Agentum]

I didn't say it did... or I didn't mean to, anyway.

I said it seems to go against the character's core, as I (mis?)understand it.
No, i shouldn't try to defend the "new" GA really, he is weird to me too.
He used to have stronger beiefs, like quiting JL when he thought they just cared for the big stuff and not the small people on the street.