"china owns america's debt"- why is that bad?

[nubly]

last fri we had a guest speaker on my political science class, a retired nevada senator. he mentioned that that china owns most of america's debt made it sound that its a negative thing. why is that?

[Wesley Dodds]

Because if they decide to dump it you're fucked.

[Michael P]

I read an article about this last year, and it basically means they can fuck up our currency and send us into a depression anytime they want. The second they decide they want to be the world's only remaining superpower, they just have to make one phone call, and we're their bitch.

The last twenty-five years of deficit spending have sealed this country's fate; short of an economic miracle, it's only a matter of time.

[ouiyahtsiouiyah]

I read an article about this last year, and it basically means they can fuck up our currency and send us into a depression anytime they want. The second they decide they want to be the world's only remaining superpower, they just have to make one phone call, and we're their bitch.

The last twenty-five years of deficit spending have sealed this country's fate; short of an economic miracle, it's only a matter of time.

we had a surplus during the great reign of Emperor Clinton. Bush is the one who shot us all to hell

[gary bolt]

I read an article about this last year, and it basically means they can fuck up our currency and send us into a depression anytime they want. The second they decide they want to be the world's only remaining superpower, they just have to make one phone call, and we're their bitch.


If Canada's political reality wasn't so meshed with the USA's I'd think that was pretty funny.

[Crinos]

I read an article about this last year, and it basically means they can fuck up our currency and send us into a depression anytime they want. The second they decide they want to be the world's only remaining superpower, they just have to make one phone call, and we're their bitch.

The last twenty-five years of deficit spending have sealed this country's fate; short of an economic miracle, it's only a matter of time.

They'd never do it. And let me tell you why:

Because if they did, we'd pull ourselves out of the depression like we did with the old one: By going to war.

And guess who just made themselves a target by fucking with us?

[Cotton]

They'd never do it. And let me tell you why:

Because if they did, we'd pull ourselves out of the depression like we did with the old one: By going to war.

And guess who just made themselves a target by fucking with us?

I don't think the American public would support a War with China, because if that happens, World War III would bring an end to the World.

[Crinos]

I don't think the American public would support a War with China, because the day that happens is the day the worst parts of the Bible comes true.

They would if we were in the middle of a depression and another country was directly involved.

As for the Nuclear holocaust thing, the Chinese know that would be the ultimate outcome too, and unless I missed the memo about Chinese people being immune to radiation, then I think we're safe.

http://files.photojerk.com/crinos/bio-radioactiveman.jpg

Oh FUCK. :p

[Iangould]

Because if they decide to dump it you're fucked.

Ditto if they just decide to stop lending more.

[Iangould]

As for the Nuclear holocaust thing, the Chinese know that would be the ultimate outcome too, and unless I missed the memo about Chinese people being immune to radiation, then I think we're safe.


Well see they just need to threaten nuclear retaliation and the US is pretty much limited to conventional weapons.

I hate to say it but currently there's a window of opportunity for the US to launch a pre-empt nuclear strike against China aimed at destroying their nuclear arsenal.

In a few years time, the expansion and modernisation of China's military will probably mean that any such attack will result in the deaths of 10-20 million Americans (as opposed to "only" a million or so if you attack now).

[Crinos]

Also for the record, the debt isnt to the goverment of China, its to banks in both China and Japan.

Looked it up on Wikipedia I did. I think my argument remains valid.

[Noah Johnson]

They'd never do it. And let me tell you why:

Because if they did, we'd pull ourselves out of the depression like we did with the old one: By going to war.

And guess who just made themselves a target by fucking with us?
Um... you don't seriously imagine we'd win, do you?

[gary bolt]

I don't think the American public would support a War with China, because if that happens, World War III would bring an end to the World.


Crinos "quoting" Cotton
I don't think the American public would support a War with China, because the day that happens is the day the worst parts of the Bible comes true.

Did I miss something or did Crinos just alter Cotton's words?

[Crinos]

Um... you don't seriously imagine we'd win, do you?

Oh... right.... they outnumber us. By like... alot.

[Cotton]

Um... you don't seriously imagine we'd win, do you?

Nobody would win:

U.S. Armed Forces vs. The People's Liberation Army = End of the World

[Crinos]

Did I miss something or did Crinos just alter Cotton's words?

No, I think Cotton altered his post after I quoted it.

[Iangould]

Also for the record, the debt isnt to the goverment of China, its to banks in both China and Japan.

Looked it up on Wikipedia I did. I think my argument remains valid.

Guess who owns the Chinese banks?

Also a big chunk of that debt IS owned directly by the Chinese central bank, They own something like $100 billion is t-bills.

This is from the Wikipedia article on the US public debt:

U.S. Treasury statistics indicate that, at the end of 2004, foreigners held 44% of federal debt held by the public. [2] About 64% of that 44% was held by the central banks of other countries. A large portion was held by the central banks of Japan and China.

http://a255.g.akamaitech.net/7/255/2422/07feb20051415/www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/pdf/spec.pdf

The official US government figures on foreign debt holdins are on page 257.

So foreign holdings gross 44% of the total, of which, 64% is owned by foreign governments. That's a little under 30% of the total debt held by foreign governments. My guess would be the Chinese government directly holds 10% of all US Federal government debt.

[Cotton]

No, I think Cotton altered his post after I quoted it.

Sorry, I thought "Worst parts of the Bible" was too ambigious, I edited my own post.

[Drew Van T.]

It's not an immediate problem. The Chinese are like those chess players who take two hours for every move. They play the loooooong game. (By contrast, your president has difficulty thinking beyond tonight's dinner, but that's neither here or there.)

Then again, something might come along that forces the Chinese to make their move a few decades early. If other lenders stop their lending, they might follow suit.

[gary bolt]

Sorry, I thought "Worst parts of the Bible" was too ambigious, I edited my own post.

Okay, I'm sorry too. I figured that an edit would have showed up on your original post. (For the record I think "because if that happens, World War III would bring an end to the World" is less ambiguous than "because the day that happens is the day the worst parts of the Bible comes true".

[Trystenn]

I read an article about this last year, and it basically means they can fuck up our currency and send us into a depression anytime they want. The second they decide they want to be the world's only remaining superpower, they just have to make one phone call, and we're their bitch.
How though?

[JeffreyWKramer]

And guess who just made themselves a target by fucking with us?

Nobody could truly win a war between the US and China. It would be mutual destruction.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Also for the record, the debt isnt to the goverment of China, its to banks in both China and Japan.

And the Chinese government has as much control over its banks as it wishes to exert.

I think my argument remains valid.

Thinking something doesn't make it so.

[JolietJake]

I also doubt that we'd get much international support from the rest of the world. Even if the climate were pro-US (as opposed to what it is now) I just don't see a lot of other nations lining up to help us take on the world's largest country when the reason for going to war is "we can't pay our debts!"

I imagine a conversation kinda like this one:

US: OK gang, let's get together and really hit those bastards where it hurts!

UK: Um, excuse me chaps.... I don't mean to be rude, but why are we doing this?

US: They're threatening the natural order of things!

UK: Uh-huh. And didn't they recently call in your debt!

US: That's right! Debt we needed to accrue in order to make the world safe for the rest of you against Iraq.

Iraq: Hey, don't look at me! We told you there weren't any friggin' WMDs that you know of.

Russia: And didn't they also buy a whole bunch of oil from Iran after you pissed them off?

US: Shut up, Ivan! Are you going to help us go to war, or not?

UK: Hold on. Hold on. Gentlemen please! Are we going to behave like the UN or just squabble and waste time? Mr. Bolton, did China extend you a legitimate credit offer?

US: Yes ... they did, but ....

UK: And did you agree to the terms?

US: Yes ... but those APRs! Only loan sharks and Mastercard charge those rates!

UK: John, .... be honest now. Were the rates stated in the contract?

US: They were ... but.....

UK: Did you make your payments on time?

US: We've only been late a few times!

China: Everytime we call to inquire they pretend they're not home, put us on hold or claim that we've reached Fred's Butcher Shoppe where, "You can beat our meat, but you can't beat our prices!"

UK: Quiet, you! Now, Mr. Bolton, ... you have been late. When did you send the last payment.

US: Well, .... we .... ahhh ..... I think it went out in today's mail.

UK: And when was it due?

US: 3 weeks ago.

UK: So, it sounds to me like you're expecting the rest of us to follow you into a war against the world's most populous country because they called in a debt which you voluntarily entered into and now don't like because it has become cumbersome to pay because of your continued spending. John, didn't your Congress recently pass a bankruptcy-reform bill because businesses in your country were getting sick of listening to these same arguments from citizen-debtors?

US: That's not really my area. My expertise is international relations and diplomacy.

UK: Quite.

US: Well, the one thing I do know is that we saved your sorry ass during the big one so step in line!

(And the world continues to merrily spin toward Armageddon.......)

[Shellhead]

They'd never do it. And let me tell you why:

Because if they did, we'd pull ourselves out of the depression like we did with the old one: By going to war.

And guess who just made themselves a target by fucking with us?

If we nuke China, who is going to loan us money next year so we can continue our massive overspending? The real problem is not that we owe money to China, it's that we have a major spending problem.

[thehod]

I also doubt that we'd get much international support from the rest of the world. Even if the climate were pro-US (as opposed to what it is now) I just don't see a lot of other nations lining up to help us take on the world's largest country when the reason for going to war is "we can't pay our debts!"

I imagine a conversation kinda like this one:

US: OK gang, let's get together and really hit those bastards where it hurts!

UK: Um, excuse me chaps.... I don't mean to be rude, but why are we doing this?

US: They're threatening the natural order of things!

UK: Uh-huh. And didn't they recently call in your debt!

US: That's right! Debt we needed to accrue in order to make the world safe for the rest of you against Iraq.

Iraq: Hey, don't look at me! We told you there weren't any friggin' WMDs that you know of.

Russia: And didn't they also buy a whole bunch of oil from Iran after you pissed them off?

US: Shut up, Ivan! Are you going to help us go to war, or not?

UK: Hold on. Hold on. Gentlemen please! Are we going to behave like the UN or just squabble and waste time? Mr. Bolton, did China extend you a legitimate credit offer?

US: Yes ... they did, but ....

UK: And did you agree to the terms?

US: Yes ... but those APRs! Only loan sharks and Mastercard charge those rates!

UK: John, .... be honest now. Were the rates stated in the contract?

US: They were ... but.....

UK: Did you make your payments on time?

US: We've only been late a few times!

China: Everytime we call to inquire they pretend they're not home, put us on hold or claim that we've reached Fred's Butcher Shoppe where, "You can beat our meat, but you can't beat our prices!"

UK: Quiet, you! Now, Mr. Bolton, ... you have been late. When did you send the last payment.

US: Well, .... we .... ahhh ..... I think it went out in today's mail.

UK: And when was it due?

US: 3 weeks ago.

UK: So, it sounds to me like you're expecting the rest of us to follow you into a war against the world's most populous country because they called in a debt which you voluntarily entered into and now don't like because it has become cumbersome to pay because of your continued spending. John, didn't your Congress recently pass a bankruptcy-reform bill because businesses in your country were getting sick of listening to these same arguments from citizen-debtors?

US: That's not really my area. My expertise is international relations and diplomacy.

UK: Quite.

US: Well, the one thing I do know is that we saved your sorry ass during the big one so step in line!

(And the world continues to merrily spin toward Armageddon.......)

Well that's Howy's next digest sewn up.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

They'd never do it. And let me tell you why:

Because if they did, we'd pull ourselves out of the depression like we did with the old one: By going to war.

And guess who just made themselves a target by fucking with us?

So now your saying the US would go to war because another country did somthing completly legal?

And if they did that, how would the US afford this war?

I doubt anyone else would lend them money.

The US would just become like certain countries in Europe - remembering the day's when they were on top, and wondering how they passed them by.

[Crinos]

So now your saying the US would go to war because another country did somthing completly legal?

And if they did that, how would the US afford this war?

I doubt anyone else would lend them money.

The US would just become like certain countries in Europe - remembering the day's when they were on top, and wondering how they passed them by.

Actually, I was talking with CBF about this, and according to him calling the debt would hurt China more than it would us.

[SOGG]

Actually, I was talking with CBF about this, and according to him calling the debt would hurt China more than it would us.

He's an economist now too?

Man, these blacksmiths, they're practically bards!

[Iangould]

How though?

Dump $20 or $30 billion in treasury bills onto the market and push the price down.

Simultaneously sell about $50 billion in US currency.

Themarket price of t-bills would go down. That would mean the price of any additional Treasury bills issued by the US goverment would also fall (why pay more for the same thing?)

A fall in the price of bonds is equivalent to a rise in interest rates.

A sharply lower US dollar combined with higher US interest rates would have nasty consequences for the US economy.

Then all they have to do is not show up for the next couple of US government bond auctions.

[Iangould]

And the Chinese government has as much control over its banks as it wishes to exert.


Additionally, in a crisis, you coud also expect China to exert control over Hong Kong's banks. Hong Kong's central bank is supposedly independent and Hong Kong's reserves (which are quite large) aren't counted as part of China's.

A half dozen PLA soldiers pointing guns at the heads of HSBC and SC Bank employees woudl change that in a hurry.

[Iangould]

Actually, I was talking with CBF about this, and according to him calling the debt would hurt China more than it would us.

Even if this were true, why do you assume they'd hesitate?

The Chinese are INTENSELY nationalistic. The current leadership is made up of people who grew up during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

Do you really think an economic downturn is going to frighten people who lived through mass starvation; open fighting in the streets; being "sent down" and "self criticism"?

China could lose 20% of it's GDP and be back where it was only two years ago.

[cactusmaac]

Dump $20 or $30 billion in treasury bills onto the market and push the price down.

Simultaneously sell about $50 billion in US currency.

Themarket price of t-bills would go down. That would mean the price of any additional Treasury bills issued by the US goverment would also fall (why pay more for the same thing?)

A fall in the price of bonds is equivalent to a rise in interest rates.

A sharply lower US dollar combined with higher US interest rates would have nasty consequences for the US economy.

Then all they have to do is not show up for the next couple of US government bond auctions.


That's assuming there wouldn't be any other buyers for those falling bonds.

Not that China's daft enought to try a play like that. They're interested in growing their economy which inevitably means they depend on exporting to the US and attracting FDI from US companies. Inducing a recession in the US would make their goods more expensive and probably result in retaliatory tariffs and economic sanctions.

Besides how much of an effect would $80 billion have?

$133 bn dollars were sold in the second half of 2003, and the US dollar is still standing.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,1153155,00.html

I don't know what that Senator that nubly saw was on about since it's Japan that has the biggest dollar reserves outside the US not China.

[Crinos]

That's assuming there wouldn't be any other buyers for those falling bonds.

Not that China's daft enought to try a play like that. They're interested in growing their economy which inevitably means they depend on exporting to the US and attracting FDI from US companies. Inducing a recession in the US would make their goods more expensive and probably result in retaliatory tariffs and economic sanctions.

Besides how much of an effect would $80 billion have?

$133 bn dollars were sold in the second half of 2003, and the US dollar is still standing.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,1153155,00.html

I don't know what that Senator that nubly saw was on about since it's Japan that has the biggest dollar reserves outside the US not China.

Yea and verily. Bout time somebody said something positive.

[Iangould]

That's assuming there wouldn't be any other buyers for those falling bonds.

In that volume? With the prospect that if it doesn't produce the desired effect the Chinese will just keep selling?

...attracting FDI from US companies... Debtor countries with major current account deficits tend not to be major sources of outward investment. It's 4 AM here, I am NOT going to go googling for chinese investment stats but from memory I beleive that as a source of investment in China the US ranks about 4th or 5th.

Besides how much of an effect would $80 billion have?

$133 bn dollars were sold in the second half of 2003, and the US dollar is still standing.

So we're talking around 4 months of normal demand dumped on the market overnight.

You think that wouldn't have an impact? Especially not if combined with an announcement that China won't take part in any future bond offerings and will ban private Chinese companies from doing so?

All they need to do is push the currency down enough to rattle other major holders into selling too.

I don't know what that Senator that nubly saw was on about since it's Japan that has the biggest dollar reserves outside the US not China.

The Senator was clearly exaggerating but your comment makes it unclear as to whether you're talking about currency holdings or US debt.

[cactusmaac]

Debtor countries with major current account deficits tend not to be major sources of outward investment. It's 4 AM here, I am NOT going to go googling for chinese investment stats but from memory I beleive that as a source of investment in China the US ranks about 4th or 5th.

These would be US companies investing, not the US government.

Japan, SK and Taiwan all invest more than the US but that doesn't mean that the US is not a substantial source of FDI. it's also the second-biggest trading partner that China has.



So we're talking around 4 months of normal demand dumped on the market overnight.

You think that wouldn't have an impact? Especially not if combined with an announcement that China won't take part in any future bond offerings and will ban private Chinese companies from doing so?

All they need to do is push the currency down enough to rattle other major holders into selling too.

It would have a temporary impact sure, but a damaging, permanent one?

Unlikely.

And why would they dump dollars in the kind of timeframe you're mentioning?

Plus any kind of dramatic fall would be lessened by traders shorting the dollar before the Chinese made their play.



The Senator was clearly exaggerating but your comment makes it unclear as to whether you're talking about currency holdings or US debt.

Both.

http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/09/AR2006010901042_pf.html

[Michael P]

So now your saying the US would go to war because another country did somthing completly legal?

What, like it's stopped us before?

[Paul McEnery]

I'm with Ian on this, except that I think that China's keeping the currency dump in its back pocket as a nuclear option. What really points to that is that China went off the dollar standard last year. Clearly, this is also what's at issue with Iran -- did the bourse launch?

Also, China has been courting the developing markets quite successfully -- though I don't know how much they've been actually exporting to, say, South America.

Here's a couple of other thoughts:

If the dollar tanks, then the debt owed by the Third World also drops, freeing up capital which could then be spent on, oh say, Chinese goods.

In addition, a broken US economy means that the US can no longer fund its geopolitical agenda, leaving the field clear.

[SOGG]

If the dollar tanks, then the debt owed by the Third World also drops, freeing up capital which could then be spent on, oh say, Chinese goods.<Snipped for space>

Bingo.

As it stands, the third world elite is already investing heavily in China. An economy of that size with a labour force that cheap? I mean, twist an arm, eh?

[Drew Van T.]

Clearly, this is also what's at issue with Iran -- did the bourse launch?

Nope, the launch of Iran's euro-denominated oil bourse may have been scheduled for March but it has been postponed. According to the Iran Ministry of Petroleum the delayed opening is a result of “technical glitches.” No new date has been set officially, but the word is that it's going to take at least 6 months.

This is going to takes some of the heat off Iran in Washington...if there are neo-cons in the administration preoccupied with the same kind of things discussed in this thread (oil and the position of the dollar) then they will shelve those concerns for now.

[SOGG]

<space snippage>
But wait...if the dollar tanks (and they haven't diversified), doesn't that wipe out their capital along with their debts? What are they going to buy those extra Chinese goods with?

Um... local currency? I mean, currency is just the medium of exchange. These countries actually have goods and services that can be purchased with their currency.

And if they don't, well they're well fucked, aren't they?

[RickThunderclees]

Let's also not forget that Saudia Arabia holds the most U.S. debt right under China.

[Drew Van T.]

Um... local currency? I mean, currency is just the medium of exchange. These countries actually have goods and services that can be purchased with their currency.

But aren't most Latin American currencies pegged to the dollar? Then the dollar falling takes their savings with it unless they've diversified. (Mind: my last post was poorly thought-out and written too fast, so I snipped the lesser part of it).

[Harlock]

Nobody could truly win a war between the US and China. It would be mutual destruction.
I am waiting for China to invent mass teleportation capabilities. Or, more realistically, just mass intercontinental travel capabilities, then we're screwed. 1 Billion Chinese people armed with spoons > America's combined military might and all the crazy Texans with guns that decide to fight back too.

[SOGG]

But aren't most Latin American currencies pegged to the dollar? Then the dollar falling takes their savings with it unless they've diversified. (Mind: my last post was poorly thought-out and written too fast, so I snipped the lesser part of it).

I agree that foreign currency holdings would really suck for countries that hoarded dollars, but (without looking at the numbers) aren't many of these are using dollars from loans anyway?

Further, now that the dollar in the hypothetical scenario has become worthless, the country in question can just issue its own currency as a means of exchange until the next hegemon currency comes to fore.

Just broad ideas. Discussions like this become really interesting when we start bringing out statistical abstracts....

Also the third world isn't just latin america. There's southeast asia too and africa. Both of which have tradeable resources.

[Trystenn]

Dump $20 or $30 billion in treasury bills onto the market and push the price down.

Simultaneously sell about $50 billion in US currency.

Themarket price of t-bills would go down. That would mean the price of any additional Treasury bills issued by the US goverment would also fall (why pay more for the same thing?)

A fall in the price of bonds is equivalent to a rise in interest rates.

A sharply lower US dollar combined with higher US interest rates would have nasty consequences for the US economy.

Then all they have to do is not show up for the next couple of US government bond auctions.
Why wouldnt the US you know, not give it to them?

[Drew Van T.]

Further, now that the dollar in the hypothetical scenario has become worthless, the country in question can just issue its own currency as a means of exchange until the next hegemon currency comes to fore.

Well, yeah, except that currency is already in place; under the current circumstances it can only be the euro. Without the euro we might not even be having this whole discussion: the threat of countries unloading their dollars has grown because a new currency has risen that is tied to a big enough market and stable enough to potentially replace the dollar. Everyone including China wouldn't even consider a move like that if there weren't a viable, realistic alternative. At least that's how I've always understood the new currency dynamics.

So we already know that those Third World countries are going to have to reposition themselves vis-à-vis the Euro. In the case of e.g. Venezuela they're already repositioning themselves that way, or starting to.

Also the third world isn't just latin america. There's southeast asia too and africa. Both of which have tradeable resources.

Sure. I just take a special interest in Latin America, as an example.

[SOGG]

Sure. I just take a special interest in Latin America, as an example.

Moved this up since I wanted to make sure that I'm projecting the right 'tone' here. Apologies if I sound snippy, I really don't mean to.

Well, yeah, except that currency is already in place; under the current circumstances it can only be the euro. Without the euro we might not even be having this whole discussion: the threat of countries unloading their dollars has grown because a new currency has risen that is tied to a big enough market and stable enough to potentially replace the dollar. Everyone including China wouldn't even consider a move like that if there weren't a viable, realistic alternative. At least that's how I've always understood the new currency dynamics.


Well, while I'd agree that countries like Vanuatu would be hard pressed to start demanding that they be paid in Vanuatuan Dollars (not sure what their actual currency is), the vacuum that a devalued dollar would cause would allow some other countries with slightly higher value goods (like venezuela in your example) that luxury. The country with the interest in hegemony would now buy up old reserves of dollars and have some kind of par value with its currency.

Also, most of these countries aren't very solvent like that. The capital is mostly in plant and equipment, bought via borrowing. Depending on the actual ratios, I think that a wiped out US dollar would actually be very good for the third world.

[cactusmaac]

Maybe for the ones with negligible exports to the US.

[Paul McEnery]

Maybe for the ones with negligible exports to the US.
I'm not sure who'll be hurting most, the US consumer paying higher prices or the exporter who can't sell as much product.

OTOH, this is something of a long overdue market correction which might bring jobs back to the States.

After all, we are hoping for a level playing field across the world, aren't we?

[Iangould]

Why wouldnt the US you know, not give it to them?

Give what to them?

The Chinese already own the Treasury bills.They can sell them.

The US can simply renege on their debt - in which case they'll probably be locked out of world debt markets fro years if not decades.

Further, the Chinese don't need America to "give" them anything. They can just stop "giving" America new loans.

[Drew Van T.]

Question: what do you do when your debts are escalating?
Answer: you try to dig the debt hole deeper...to dig faster...to dig harder!

http://iht.com/articles/2006/04/27/opinion/edfiscal.php

Emergency spending spree

President George W. Bush is threatening to veto this year's emergency budget supplement for the Iraq war and hurricane recovery efforts - he's suddenly shocked, shocked! that his own Republican-led Senate has steadily inflated it with $14 billion in unrelated goodies.

As if this sort of fiscal mayhem is not the now-familiar fallout from the administration's own signature fecklessness in adding to the record debt and deficit for future generations to handle.

This year's $92 billion "must pass" measure, while supposedly restricted to the pressing costs of the war and the post-Katrina Gulf Coast repairs, has been turned into a fiscal Christmas tree. Billions have been added for extra farm subsidies, highway repairs, higher education, veterans' health care and forest maintenance, and even a $15 million bauble for something that's called a "seafood promotion strategy."
...
No one mentions the responsibility to find revenues to someday pay for all this, plus debt costs.