So...when did the Wolfman NEW TEEN TITANS "jump the shark?"

[JulianPerez]

People have a lot of good memories of the NEW TEEN TITANS run by Wolfman, and this goodwill is deserved. It didn't blow everybody's mind the way Stainless Steve Englehart did or the way Kurt Busiek later would, but in the days before comics inflation became ridiculously out of control, you could follow a book like this with interest for less than the cost of a couple candy bars a month - even if you spring for the baxter paper version.

It was a thoroughly entertaining "popcorn book," with battles fought with white sound cannons and green elephants, good looking broads, lots of Nightwing with his shirt off to make the fangirls coo, and grotesque looking supervillains who wear glass cases on their heads to show off how big their brain is.

One thing is certain, though:

Nearly everybody considers that after a while, NEW TEEN TITANS jumped the shark. Just WHEN Titans jumped the shark, though, differs from person to person.

For my friends from the UK and elsewhere, "jump the shark" is American slang for the turning point when a long lasting series starts to go downhill. Named after the deed in HAPPY DAYS performed by the Fonz (a deity figure from our ancient mythology).

[Brian Cronin]

When Perez left the book.

Which is weird, because you wouldn't think that'd be as big of a deal as it turned out being.

There were a handful of good issues without Perez, but by the time Eduardo Barreto became the regular artist, the book was just not that good.

It had a quick upswing when Perez returned, and then another one during Titans Hunt. But post Titans Hunt, nothing but lameness.

-Brian

[David O Burcham]

"Trial of the Terminator" more specifically than just when Perez left.

[tangentman]

Personally, I consider "Titans Hunt" the point where the series "jumped the shark". The main cast disappeared with one or two exceptions, several "edgier" new characters were introduced, and FOUR characters apparently died by the end of the arc (Danny Chase, Arella, Raven, and Jericho). The storyline seemed to be a sad attempt to channel the subversiveness of "The Judas Contract", but failed imo. Retconning Jericho as the villain just replayed the "Terra" card. Thus, I voted for the "Jericho Revealed As A Villain" option.

[Aaron Kashtan]

I agree with Brian. The story arc by Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez, right after Gentleman George left, was very good. I'm told that the series went downhill rather quickly after that, though I don't know this with certainty, because I've read very few of the issues after vol. 2 #11.

[glennsim]

For me, issue 100. When the Titans became "dark". The Teen Titans should never be "dark".

And that artist, Bill Jaaska? Good lord he sucked.

[Brian Cronin]

"Trial of the Terminator" more specifically than just when Perez left.

Egg-zactly. That was an excellent issue.

And, I believe, it was about the same time the Jose Garcia-Lopez story was finishing up, no?

-Brian

[Paul Newell]

Danny, Freakin', Chase.

[Shellhead]

I voted that the turning point was when Jericho was revealed to be evil, because that was about the time when the Titan Hunt suddenly dropped in quality, as several really stupid plot twists occurred. But there were some rough times earlier than that when Perez wasn't around. It wasn't a voting option, but I think this was one of the real low points in the series when Wolfman was trying too hard to make this title dark and serious:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/86298402554.19.GIF

When Donna beat up Nightwing, and it wasn't even a classic mind control kind of scene, the spirit of the whole Teen Titans series kind of died. They had a really ugly argument, and it turned physical. Maybe that was realistic, but it wasn't entertaining and it didn't feel like Teen Titans anymore. I kept reading for a few more issues, then left until Perez came back, and then back again for the Titan Hunt.

[Damo]

Intro of Jerico, but dang, that angel of Lilith's...

[tangentman]

Yeah, Pre-Crisis Azrael was pretty useless as alien super-heroes went, huh? Besides winged flight, I think his greatest power consisted of over-wrought weeping. Chug your beer or shot glass for every Titans/COIE panel in the mid-80's which showed Azrael crying.

[Zeta]

Danny Chase. He was Cousin Freaking Oliver. Which is one of the definable Jump the Shark moments.

[Aaron Kashtan]

Yeah, Pre-Crisis Azrael was pretty useless as alien super-heroes went, huh? Besides winged flight, I think his greatest power consisted of over-wrought weeping. Chug your beer or shot glass for every Titans/COIE panel in the mid-80's which showed Azrael crying.

If I did that, then I would be crying too, because of the hangover I'd have the next day.

[Apathy Boy]

Moving the comic to the Baxter line, and turning the regular series into a comic that published year-old stories from the Baxter series.

Apart from being a horribly unfair move for the majority of readers who picked up the book at newstands, it led to a precipitous and quick drop-off in quality. The Baxter series was far darker than it should've been. The first story, where Raven gets possessed by Trigon, really freaked me out. That's not at all appropriate for a book read by a lot of young kids, but the series had completely lost sight of what it was about.

[ChthonicSpirit]

I know a bit about NTT, but I never really followed the series. I'd like to ask, When was it (out of the above options) that Dick and Kory started to have pointless, irreconcilable issues? I ask this just because I'd say when hot n' sweaty alien-human emo sex no longer seems worthwhile, a series has definately jumped the shark.

[Agentum]

I think it was when Perez left, i guess he contributed to the series as much as Wolfman did.

But i think some later storys was ok too, and i don't mind if it became more realistic, and the remarks about the book becoming darker, i don't see that as a bad thing.

This may be one of DC comics best books ever, and in the 80s not much was better, it's so easy to sit now 20-25 years later and judge, diffrent times diffrent comics.

I read the books recently and it was old Teen Titans fans mailing in and complaining that this new series was nothing like the old one, that to me is painfully bad to read today.

[Perry Holley]

Personally, I consider "Titans Hunt" the point where the series "jumped the shark". The main cast disappeared with one or two exceptions, several "edgier" new characters were introduced, and FOUR characters apparently died by the end of the arc (Danny Chase, Arella, Raven, and Jericho). The storyline seemed to be a sad attempt to channel the subversiveness of "The Judas Contract", but failed imo. Retconning Jericho as the villain just replayed the "Terra" card. Thus, I voted for the "Jericho Revealed As A Villain" option.What Tangentman said.

[shaxper]

While I think the title(s) continued to have some decent (although inconsistantly so) stories up until Titans' Hunt, I really think the series began to fade soon after the Judas Contract. The title really peaked between issue #20 and Annual #3, with tons of soap opera-esq escalations, lots of character development and interpersonal relationships, and some major long-term planning going on. Once the Judas Contract ended, it felt like Wolfman and Perez had played their trump cards (everything with Terra, Origin of Deathstroke, Robin becoming Nightwing, Jericho, Deathstroke fulfilling his son's contract, etc.) and had little left in their hand. So I'm going with the move to Baxter Paper, which happened only a short while after this time. I don't think creators running short on ideas should be writing two monthly comics for the same team, even if one turned to reprints after a year.

[Tennoarashi]

When Jericho turned into a villian. DEFINITELY.

[Shem the Penman]

Umm ... I kinda liked Danny Chase.

I agree with "Titans Hunt," but I'd also point to "Who Is Wonder Girl?" The one that filled five issues with pointless continuity-wankery and ended with Donna turning into Troia -- with a bunch of poorly defined powers and one of George Perez's worst costume designs ever. Call that one a practice hop over the shark before "Titans Hunt" turned the suck up to high.

[kcekada]

It's definitely when Perez left.

Not sure why. The stories shoudn't have been effected. The return of the Olympian Titans and Thia in the first post-Perez story wasn't bad, but the era of Titans excellence was clearly over.

No, not all of the Perez issues are gold, but towards the end, the series really was hitting them out of the ballpark every issue. Had DC managed to keep that level of quality, the book may have been able to eclipse X-Men eventually.

Garia-Lopez wasn't a bad replacement, but he didn't have the energy/dynamic of someone like Perez. Baretto was another step down -- and he lasted on the book for years (while sales continuously dropped).

It wasn't until Grummet came aboard and that Peterson guy took over as editor that the book showed some creativity. Titans Hunt started out so well, but Peterson left too soon, and the whole thing went to crap shortly thereafter.

[Mister Intensity]

I voted that the turning point was when Jericho was revealed to be evil, because that was about the time when the Titan Hunt suddenly dropped in quality, as several really stupid plot twists occurred. But there were some rough times earlier than that when Perez wasn't around. It wasn't a voting option, but I think this was one of the real low points in the series when Wolfman was trying too hard to make this title dark and serious:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/86298402554.19.GIF

When Donna beat up Nightwing, and it wasn't even a classic mind control kind of scene, the spirit of the whole Teen Titans series kind of died. They had a really ugly argument, and it turned physical. Maybe that was realistic, but it wasn't entertaining and it didn't feel like Teen Titans anymore. I kept reading for a few more issues, then left until Perez came back, and then back again for the Titan Hunt.

That cover illustrated the point where the series "jumped the shark."

Mister Intensity

[Gingold]

It's hard to single out the single defining moment, but I think it's safe to say that after Crisis, the book was never the same again. When Crisis gave DC a chance to revamp, retool, reboot and shine up its bigger properties that had been slumping, the titles that were strong going into Crisis - Titans and Legion, chief among them, were kinda left in the dust. Whatever you think of the Superman, Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman, and Justice League revamps, they all brought a level of fan excitement and enthusiasm to those books that hadn't been there in a while. Marv's passion went into Superman, George's to Wonder Woman. Titans (and Legion) used to be one of the only parts of the DCU where anything could happen, changes were permanent and characters could actually die; compared to rest of the books where little, if anything, ever changed. Crisis, seemingly, changed that. Now the rest of DC's books were places where things could actual depart from the standard formula. So Titans lost some of the "anything can happen" factor that it had gained from stories like "The Judas Contract".

Plus, at this point the book was now sold only at comic shops, so it was left out of all the major crossovers. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing, but it added to the sense that Titans was irrelevant to the larger post-Crisis universe. Post-Crisis changes cut Donna Troy off from her ties to Wonder Woman, made necessary a re-write of the best story Marv and George ever did together. "Who is Wonder Girl?" doesn't come close to the emotion and drama of "Who is Donna Troy?"

[Sean Walsh]

Danny Chase. He was Cousin Freaking Oliver. Which is one of the definable Jump the Shark moments.

Good lord, that's the exact same thing I thought. "Cousin Oliver."

And not just because of the "jump the shark" thing, but because Danny looked like an older Oliver............

COINCIDENCE?!?!

[Shellhead]

Good lord, that's the exact same thing I thought. "Cousin Oliver."

And not just because of the "jump the shark" thing, but because Danny looked like an older Oliver............

COINCIDENCE?!?!

He had the same haircut and glasses, but Danny was much more obnoxious. Actually, I kind of liked Danny when he was interacting with anybody but Logan or Raven. Logan and Danny seemed to bring out the worst in each other, and Logan was already fairly obnoxious.

[Ontir]

I think Jericho being revealed as evil was one of the last gasps of hope the book had. Those first "hard cover" issues of Teen Titans were, like the first five issues of Legion fantastic. What they both had in common, was that shortly after, the artist who was a large part of the success of the era, left. In the Legion's case, Steve Lightle came aboard and was fantastic, while the art on Titans was good, it was uneven. It was also a case where the artists had left the books that were created to showcase them, more expensive books that were being published simoultaneously to the original titles, which certainly didn't have the same artists, and at least the Legion, didn't have the same writer on the less-expensive "soft cover" book. While it seemed a good idea, it was a recipe for disaster.

[estee]

Titans Hunt was pretty bad...when skunk hair Raven came back was the last nail in the coffin.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I really don't think Titans Hunt or Jericho being a villain was the coup de grace that killed the series as much as Wolfman staying on it,holding the charactors in a death grip as nothing happened for years !

The Titans was right there vs the X-Men for sales supremacy in the early 80's. Its just that George Perez did more than most thought. His work was so good it raised the profile of the series,Wolfman and himself !

Once George left the book really should have gotten another name Artist to attract fans. Instead DC decided that this cash cow didn't need anything like that and let Marv have complete control and his control drove the book to a last ditch effort to lure fans back with Titans Hunt.

The worst problems was Marv should have stepped away when he knew he didn't have Titans stories to tell anymore. Him staying drove the series down and away.

[LordEd1976]

Jericho revealed as a villain is the pick for me.

I weep for the deaths of Pantha and Wildebeest in Infinite Crisis but is it any wonder they were shuffled off the mortal coil? We had a Titans lineup that was Deathstroke, Pantha, Red Star, and someone's annoying tagalong kid brother aka Danny Chase. We have a character like Jericho turned into a villain that even though he has magical powers has to take over a terrorist organization in order to find himself a perfect host body. Someone really was asleep the day they handed out possesion powers in demon class.

And to put a cherry on this garbage sundae, we end with Raven merging with her mom, her people, and Annoying Kid Brother Lad to fill the space between a floating set of rags and a mask and dub itself Phantasm (Probably hoping people will confuse it for the cool Batman movie and it show it love.) Deathstroke joins in on the fun cheese by killing his son in an overly dramatic moment that I'm sure had some soap opera writer kicking themselves in the head for not thinking of it first.

[titanfan]

I know a bit about NTT, but I never really followed the series. I'd like to ask, When was it (out of the above options) that Dick and Kory started to have pointless, irreconcilable issues? I

Their differences are hardly irreconcilable.

But they officially "broke up", when Kory was set up in an arranged marriage to Karras. Karras died and after Titans Hunt Dick and Kory were going to get married when the wedding was crashed by a Trigon-possessed Raven who implanted a Trigon seed into Kory by kissing her. (Thus that version of Raven is affectionately known as "evil lesbian Raven".) Then later on, Mirage impersonated Starfire, and pretended to be her so she could sleep with Dick. Kory was pissed off that Dick couldn't tell it wasn't her and they broke up for the last time. The bottom line is that their breakup was pretty poorly done. However, it was pretty much an editorial mandate. Denny O'Neil wanted a grim and gritty realistic urban legend asshole Batman and didn't think it was realistic for Dick to be dating an alien princess. Thus, Dick wasn't allowed to be in the same panel as Kory and they pretty much half-retconned his romantic interest in Barbara.

For me, there was no definite "jump the shark" moment. Basically the Titans slowly stagnated to death. They went from New Titans #1 to New Titans #70--with pretty much the only roster change being Danny Chase joining and then being removed from the team. In a team book, that's crazy. In that time, the Titans grew up--and then Marv pretty much ran out of things to do with them. All of the Titans' inner demons had pretty much been put to rest.

Titans Hunt was needed at the time. I agree the arc and title started to fall apart after Jonathan Petersen left.

I think the book pretty much became unreadable when the WORST COMIC BOOK ARTIST IN THE UNIVERSE, Bill Jaaska, took over the title.

You know, come to think of it, DC's "Baxter Book" experiment was the first "One Year Later" attempt. And the resulting experiment pretty much killed DC's biggest titles at the time.

[titanfan]

Once George left the book really should have gotten another name Artist to attract fans.

I'm torn about this. It might have saved Titans, but many of the artists who followed George hit it big, in part due to their work on the book. Titans has never been a book to have name artists--what it's done was launch the careers of many artists.

[spoon_jenkins]

I think I'd say when Jose-Luis Garcia-Lopez left. Garcia-Lopez's art is so damn beautiful that I don't think there's any drop-off replacing Perez with JLGL.

I don't have many Barreto issues.

Some of the poll choices are really close events in time.

[ChthonicSpirit]

Their differences are hardly irreconcilable.

No, of course not. I was being facetious about the fact that a lot of writers and fans rather stupidly treat them as irreconcilable.


But they officially "broke up", when Kory was set up in an arranged marriage to Karras. Karras died and after Titans Hunt Dick and Kory were going to get married when the wedding was crashed by a Trigon-possessed Raven who implanted a Trigon seed into Kory by kissing her. (Thus that version of Raven is affectionately known as "evil lesbian Raven".) Then later on, Mirage impersonated Starfire, and pretended to be her so she could sleep with Dick. Kory was pissed off that Dick couldn't tell it wasn't her and they broke up for the last time.

Is that seriously all it took? :evilangry

I think you've proven my point. If the writer/creative team thought they could be as cheap as all that, then they'd probably admitted to themselves that they were jumping the shark.

But when, out of the above options, was this event closest to?

[Kid Kyoto]

It has to be after Perez left with the Trigon story. Wolfman and Perez set up several confilicts in the first few issues and after 5 years they had concluded all of them with nothing to really take their place.

By then trigon was done, the Terminator was done, Brother Blood was done... everything that followered was retreads of old threats or lackluster new ones that came out of nowhere and faded away again.

Across town Clairmont was able to throw new stuff into the mix throughout his run and even when he brought back an old threat after their final defeat #5 he could make it work. Somehow Wolfman just couldn't.

NTT 1-50 and then the Baxter book 1-5 are great comics, after that though they're done.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Another knock against Wolfman was the fact he loved the charactors so much he was afraid to kill or replace them as a team for years! A team book that doesn't have any changes for 6 to 7 years is hard to understand.

It was when he told Peterson he really didn't have anything left to do that the writing was on the wall.Marv shoulda left at Issue 50 of NTT and handed the series to a new guy.

[ACK!]

Issues #28-33 of the second New Teen Titans (baxter) series, were scripted by Paul Levitz, with Wolfman credited as plotting issues #28 and #29. Wolfman has admitted in interviews that he did experience a creative block - probably after Crisis - and timewise, this would make sense, as the issues are produced months in advance of their actual release dates.

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/2842/200/2842_2_28.jpg

A glance at the credits from these issues indicates that the title was going through a rough period, as there were a lot of fill-in artists as well.

A couple of years later, they tried to recapture the golden era by bringing Perez back for "Who Is Wonder Girl," but even Perez admitted they tried to catch lightning a bottle twice and it didn't work. In addition to a silly outfit, the name "Troia" sounded really...stupid.

[Thnikkaman]

Have you ever noticed how much Danny Chase looked like Cousin Olliver? They both pretty much had the same effect on their respective series.

*edit* Apparently you did.

[Sean Dulaney]

It's really a tough call.

You can argue the departure of George...but those issues building up to Donna's wedding were mostly fill-in artists with the odd Perez page thrown in.

Crisis/Baxter...these two speak to me as at least the starting of the boat. When you read the issues that hit early in Crisis (Before the June/July/August issues that tied into Crisis line-wide and gave birth to the term "red sky crossover") there was a bit of crossover between "Tales" and "NTT-Baxter". It was as if the reprint plan wasn't part of the original concept of having two versions of the Titans and Legion books available. The shuffling to get Dick, Kory and Joey off planet where there would be minimal Crisis references a year later seemed forced. That storyline led to the Donna led group (not a bad storyline in and of itself) and the rehash of the Brother Blood storyline (arguably when the boat started for the ramp) where,IIRC, Blood claimed to have been manipulating Dick since the first Titans/Blood battle.

Editorial Shift...This is what I usually credit as being the JTS-moment. Both Wolfman and Roy Thomas were affected by the post-Crisis change at DC that would no longer allow the "writer-editor" position. (I've often wondered if this was a political fallout thing since other editors had to deal with Crisis changes.) Granted Marv might have stayed too long at the fair, but once he no longer had the editorial reigns, you had the expansion of the brand (DEATHSTROKE THE TERMINATOR, TEAM TITANS), the X-Men style crossovers (Titans Hunt, Total Chaos) and the Bat-office* reclaiming Dick Grayson.

*If you look back, the only main DCU titles to not have the "DC 50" bullet or "Crisis Crossover" header during that year (other than the "Tales of..." books) were BATMAN and DETECTIVE.

[Mister Intensity]

It's really a tough call.

You can argue the departure of George...but those issues building up to Donna's wedding were mostly fill-in artists with the odd Perez page thrown in.

Crisis/Baxter...these two speak to me as at least the starting of the boat. When you read the issues that hit early in Crisis (Before the June/July/August issues that tied into Crisis line-wide and gave birth to the term "red sky crossover") there was a bit of crossover between "Tales" and "NTT-Baxter". It was as if the reprint plan wasn't part of the original concept of having two versions of the Titans and Legion books available. The shuffling to get Dick, Kory and Joey off planet where there would be minimal Crisis references a year later seemed forced. That storyline led to the Donna led group (not a bad storyline in and of itself) and the rehash of the Brother Blood storyline (arguably when the boat started for the ramp) where,IIRC, Blood claimed to have been manipulating Dick since the first Titans/Blood battle.

Editorial Shift...This is what I usually credit as being the JTS-moment. Both Wolfman and Roy Thomas were affected by the post-Crisis change at DC that would no longer allow the "writer-editor" position. (I've often wondered if this was a political fallout thing since other editors had to deal with Crisis changes.) Granted Marv might have stayed too long at the fair, but once he no longer had the editorial reigns, you had the expansion of the brand (DEATHSTROKE THE TERMINATOR, TEAM TITANS), the X-Men style crossovers (Titans Hunt, Total Chaos) and the Bat-office* reclaiming Dick Grayson.

*If you look back, the only main DCU titles to not have the "DC 50" bullet or "Crisis Crossover" header during that year (other than the "Tales of..." books) were BATMAN and DETECTIVE.

I believe you are spot-on with your assessment as to when The New Teen Titans "jumped the shark." The real change did occur when Marv lost editorial control and the Baxter experiment was a big failure in hindsight (Legion and Outsiders, the third Baxter title although the change came later, also lost
momentum once it went to that format). Interesting that none of those concepts ever really recovered from that change-over, although Teen Titans is only now regaining momentum.

I do remember a few issues of Batman containing the "Crisis Crossover" header, although those were the issues that really defined the term "red sky crossover."

Of course, Dick Grayson still hasn't recovered from the Bat-office reclaiming him.

Mister Intensity

[J'onn J'onzz]

Sorry to bump up an old topic but I've been trying to finish this run lately (it's so long! I've been reading it for something like 6 or 7 years, on and off) and I've been thinking about when the title's golden age stopped...

My opinion is that it's issue 31 of the second series, where Wolfman's long (REALLY long, Marv seemed to drag it out because he didn't seem to have any ideas for what to do after it was done) running Brother Blood plot finally closed. In 34, he finishes the Mento plot, so I suppose you could say that's the real end of all the plots he's been building to, but issue 31 was the last issue reprinted in Tales of the Teen Titans, the newsstand version, and there's kind of a reason for that. It was the end of everything Wolfman had been building up to, and after that there wasn't really anything left for him to do. During the Brother Blood arc, the letters page started getting swamped with negative letters. It was kind of bizarre because usually editors only print one negative letter per column, or none. But it was really rare during the Brother Blood arc to see positive letters printed. It wasn't really a bad arc in my opinion, I liked the characters of Azrael and Brother Blood and thought it was pretty cool despite how slow it moved.

The next year and a half or so was the slow meandering Wildebeest plot, then all those awful Danny Chase stories (which was the point where the title became unbearable for a while, Danny Chase was by far the worst character to ever grace the New Teen Titans), until the return of George Perez.

The Perez return was not very good either though, to be honest. Who is Wonder Girl was mediocre and retconned a great story. And after that, Perez didn't even seem to care that much, putting all his energy into Secret Origins Annual #3 with the history of the Teen Titans. Some of the stories in the second Wolfman/Perez run were ok, like the one with Raven and her mother and Forrester (was that his name?) but overall it was pretty disappointing, and not the return to grace a lot of people were hoping for...

Titans Hunt is actually a great story in my opinion, the comic had lacked any real direction for about three years but Titans Hunt gave it back a kind of unpredictability it had lacked for a long time... there were a couple okay issues after Titans Hunt but after that they ramped up the awful Team Titans plotline which had already interrupted Titans Hunt in a really abrupt manner. Total Chaos and Titans Sell Out were both pretty bad, people lament Peterson leaving but he was behind those two lame crossovers too. I think if he had stayed it might have improved but Total Chaos and Titans Sell Out were written in a really annoying manner, for some reason Marv was trying to be funny so Mirage and Starfire kept insulting each other and there was a whole lot of Pantha/Baby Wildebeest stuff and very little of it worked...

And that's about the point I'm at, the Simonson filler arc is alright and I actually enjoyed the Darkening, but I haven't read 101-114 yet (I've read that they are terrible), and I don't know if I'll even bother with the post-Zero Hour issues.

[protonik]

When I read New Teen Titans it really makes me miss the days when I could read a single comic a month and still get the whole story or even an issue where I read it and get a beginning, middle and end, even in a six part arc. So many of todays stories could be single issue stories and they just drag them on.

[WorstThingUS]

First of all, Wolfman's horrifically overwrought writing bothered me as a kid, but I was Dick Grayson fan, so I pushed through, but it hit rock bottom with this:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090106022724/marvel_dc/images/thumb/e/e0/New_Teen_Titans_Vol_1_26.jpg/300px-New_Teen_Titans_Vol_1_26.jpg

I still remember one of the worst things I've ever read in comics: "...and the dragon roars!"

After that there were a handful of tolerable issues and The Judas Contract. Nothing after that.

And every single issue of the baxter stock was utter crap, Perez or no Perez. All. Bad.

[Kolymar]

I know a bit about NTT, but I never really followed the series. I'd like to ask, When was it (out of the above options) that Dick and Kory started to have pointless, irreconcilable issues? I ask this just because I'd say when hot n' sweaty alien-human emo sex no longer seems worthwhile, a series has definately jumped the shark.


Their differences are hardly irreconcilable.

But they officially "broke up", when Kory was set up in an arranged marriage to Karras. Karras died and after Titans Hunt Dick and Kory were going to get married when the wedding was crashed by a Trigon-possessed Raven who implanted a Trigon seed into Kory by kissing her. (Thus that version of Raven is affectionately known as "evil lesbian Raven".) Then later on, Mirage impersonated Starfire, and pretended to be her so she could sleep with Dick. Kory was pissed off that Dick couldn't tell it wasn't her and they broke up for the last time.

Actually, the thing with Mirage happened during the Total Chaos saga and that was months before the wedding in #100. That said, it was series of personal disasters for the Titans in general that affected Starfire in particular ways: iirc, she was used as an energy source by Jericho during Titans Hunt so she felt betrayed by a close friend, violated, tortured. As a result of that, she was severely weakened and felt defenseless which, given her psychological make-up and her past traumas, wasn't very good for her psyche. Dick started behaving in an over-protective manner which didn't help. They had a bit of a spat there. Then she was kidnapped and replaced by Mirage and no one noticed. Worse still, Dick had sex with Miri and didn't notice the change. But they patched up things and after a while came the wedding (about which she wasn't sure to begin with because she didn't think Dick was sure about it) where she received the seed (it was the good Raven's, not Trigon's) which left her in a coma for a while and triggered a series of mystical and spiritual changes in her including getting Raven-like powers. The seed influenced her to leave the planet which led to her being married to another Tamaranean who also died and several adventures in outer space. At one point she returned aaaaaand here we are. I'm sure I've forgotten quite a few things but I think the main points adressing the original question are there.



I think the book pretty much became unreadable when the WORST COMIC BOOK ARTIST IN THE UNIVERSE, Bill Jaaska, took over the title.

Now, now, let's not exaggerate. That title rightfully belongs to someone else. The guy's worked long and hard to earn it and he keeps working hard to deserve it every single day. He's a true champion. It'd be inhumanly unfair to deny it to him. :tongue: Jaaska wasn't a great penciler but he wasn't too bad. He was simply a bit too odd, particularly when compared with the previous penciler, and, at times, confusing.

[paulski]

Now, now, let's not exaggerate. That title rightfully belongs to someone else. The guy's worked long and hard to earn it and he keeps working hard to deserve it every single day. He's a true champion. It'd be inhumanly unfair to deny it to him. :tongue: Jaaska wasn't a great penciler but he wasn't too bad. He was simply a bit too odd, particularly when compared with the previous penciler, and, at times, confusing.

Ehn, I don't know about that. As much as I loved this book and the characters, a couple of issues of Jaaska on pencils was enough to get me to drop it immediately. In fact, I think I dumped it straight after #100 - ugly, ugly stuff. :eek:

[Darrell D.]

I would have to say one of the stupidest and funniest issues would be the one where Changeling cries the WHOLE FREAKING ISSUE while trying to kill Deathstroke, and then he cries while he and Deathstroke have coffee and talk about the underage chick Deathstroke was banging.
Seriously. Even as a taste impaired kid I knew this was crap.

[tfresca]

I can tell you exactly the moment it all fell apart, the Wildabeast storyline. That was the catalyst that through everything the fans cared about out the window. Also having Danny Chase on the team, an obnoxious kid in a room full of adults, really did nothing fort the book.

[protege]

Well, i think Phantasm was an interesting concept- i just wish it had been handled differently. Ditto for Pantha- there never really was any resolution to her story- like Wofman created her, but had no idea what to do with her. And what about team titans? Was Wolfman responsible for them?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Sorry to bump up an old topic but I've been trying to finish this run lately (it's so long! I've been reading it for something like 6 or 7 years, on and off) and I've been thinking about when the title's golden age stopped...

My opinion is that it's issue 31 of the second series, where Wolfman's long (REALLY long, Marv seemed to drag it out because he didn't seem to have any ideas for what to do after it was done) running Brother Blood plot finally closed. In 34, he finishes the Mento plot, so I suppose you could say that's the real end of all the plots he's been building to, but issue 31 was the last issue reprinted in Tales of the Teen Titans, the newsstand version, and there's kind of a reason for that. It was the end of everything Wolfman had been building up to, and after that there wasn't really anything left for him to do. During the Brother Blood arc, the letters page started getting swamped with negative letters. It was kind of bizarre because usually editors only print one negative letter per column, or none. But it was really rare during the Brother Blood arc to see positive letters printed. It wasn't really a bad arc in my opinion, I liked the characters of Azrael and Brother Blood and thought it was pretty cool despite how slow it moved.

The next year and a half or so was the slow meandering Wildebeest plot, then all those awful Danny Chase stories (which was the point where the title became unbearable for a while, Danny Chase was by far the worst character to ever grace the New Teen Titans), until the return of George Perez.

The Perez return was not very good either though, to be honest. Who is Wonder Girl was mediocre and retconned a great story. And after that, Perez didn't even seem to care that much, putting all his energy into Secret Origins Annual #3 with the history of the Teen Titans. Some of the stories in the second Wolfman/Perez run were ok, like the one with Raven and her mother and Forrester (was that his name?) but overall it was pretty disappointing, and not the return to grace a lot of people were hoping for...

Titans Hunt is actually a great story in my opinion, the comic had lacked any real direction for about three years but Titans Hunt gave it back a kind of unpredictability it had lacked for a long time... there were a couple okay issues after Titans Hunt but after that they ramped up the awful Team Titans plotline which had already interrupted Titans Hunt in a really abrupt manner. Total Chaos and Titans Sell Out were both pretty bad, people lament Peterson leaving but he was behind those two lame crossovers too. I think if he had stayed it might have improved but Total Chaos and Titans Sell Out were written in a really annoying manner, for some reason Marv was trying to be funny so Mirage and Starfire kept insulting each other and there was a whole lot of Pantha/Baby Wildebeest stuff and very little of it worked...

And that's about the point I'm at, the Simonson filler arc is alright and I actually enjoyed the Darkening, but I haven't read 101-114 yet (I've read that they are terrible), and I don't know if I'll even bother with the post-Zero Hour issues.

Save yourself from reading 101-114. If ya do...its basically where Marv really jumped the shark and missed Peterson as editor. At the 101-114 part the art becomes a chore to get thru and ya wanna stab yourself . Plus theres nothing really in those issues. Nothing...no big plot or anything.

By the time ZH happened , Marv was basically told by DC..."Your putting these characters on New Titans. Only way the book doesn't get cancelled."

DC must have had loyalty to Marv Wolfman and the Titans then. Because they shifted new Green Lantern , Kyle Rayner there , pushed Donna Troy into the book and pushed Impulse into the book. Each move seemed to be to try and rebound the book. But it never worked ...and the book limped those final 15-16 issues to an end.


I would have to say one of the stupidest and funniest issues would be the one where Changeling cries the WHOLE FREAKING ISSUE while trying to kill Deathstroke, and then he cries while he and Deathstroke have coffee and talk about the underage chick Deathstroke was banging.
Seriously. Even as a taste impaired kid I knew this was crap.

"Shades of Gray" was perhaps the last real highlight and continued a piece from the Judas Contract. Where the Titans found out that Slade couldn't stand trial for what he did. And that the government helped him get by with it.


Well, i think Phantasm was an interesting concept- i just wish it had been handled differently. Ditto for Pantha- there never really was any resolution to her story- like Wofman created her, but had no idea what to do with her. And what about team titans? Was Wolfman responsible for them?

The idea from the Titans website and Peterson was to create a franchise of books. That at one time the Titans faced the X-Men for sales supremcy each month. Then while the X-Men grew and changed...morphing into a franchise of books...the Titans didn't.

I did like Peterson going , "Uhhh Marv if Deathstroke is such a popular character ...why isn't he in his own series ?" Because it never occured to him that the character as a semi-villain could support a regular series. So he got a tryout for it...and it worked.

They did Team Titans as yet another spin-off book and shake up things. There was another planned spin-off called The Hybrid I believe. But they didn't get that one done by the time Peterson left.

[Kolymar]

DC must have had loyalty to Marv Wolfman and the Titans then. Because they shifted new Green Lantern , Kyle Rayner there , pushed Donna Troy into the book and pushed Impulse into the book.

Plus Damage who started strong and was being pushed as potentially one of the most powerful beings in the universe after the end of ZH where he provided the "Big Bang", and a couple of the Team Titans, iirc.

[Lorendiac]

Sorry to bump up an old topic but I've been trying to finish this run lately (it's so long! I've been reading it for something like 6 or 7 years, on and off) and I've been thinking about when the title's golden age stopped...

My opinion is that it's issue 31 of the second series, where Wolfman's long (REALLY long, Marv seemed to drag it out because he didn't seem to have any ideas for what to do after it was done) running Brother Blood plot finally closed. In 34, he finishes the Mento plot, so I suppose you could say that's the real end of all the plots he's been building to, but issue 31 was the last issue reprinted in Tales of the Teen Titans, the newsstand version, and there's kind of a reason for that. It was the end of everything Wolfman had been building up to, and after that there wasn't really anything left for him to do. During the Brother Blood arc, the letters page started getting swamped with negative letters. It was kind of bizarre because usually editors only print one negative letter per column, or none. But it was really rare during the Brother Blood arc to see positive letters printed. It wasn't really a bad arc in my opinion, I liked the characters of Azrael and Brother Blood and thought it was pretty cool despite how slow it moved.

Let's remember one thing: the last few issues of Marv Wolfman's Brother Blood arc weren't exactly written by Marv Wolfman! They were written by Paul Levitz, from plot ideas provided by Wolfman, apparently. So Wolfman had spent years building up to having the whole "Brother Blood and his scary cult" situation be resolved . . . and then it was resolved by somebody else providing all the actual dialogue for the dramatic ending of that long-running problem!


The next year and a half or so was the slow meandering Wildebeest plot, then all those awful Danny Chase stories (which was the point where the title became unbearable for a while, Danny Chase was by far the worst character to ever grace the New Teen Titans), until the return of George Perez.

I don't hate Danny Chase the way many Titans fans seem to.

Don't get me wrong! I'm not saying I actually love the guy, or that he deserved a permanent slot on the team, or anything like that. I just find him more "mildly annoying" than "awful."


The Perez return was not very good either though, to be honest. Who is Wonder Girl was mediocre and retconned a great story.

I am inclined to agree with your general point that Perez's second run on the Titans, while it lasted, did not involve such great stories as his early-80s run featured.

But to play devil's advocate for a minute, I want to say a few words in the defense of what Marv Wolfman and George Perez did in that five-part arc that totally rewrote Donna Troy's origin story. It seems to me that when you just dismiss that arc as "retconned a great story" (and I agree that it did), it sounds as if you think Wolfman and Perez didn't even realize what a great job they had already done years earlier on "Who is Donna Troy?" and so one day, when they were bored to death and couldn't come up with any better ideas for how to kill time over the next five issues of the current Titans title, they spontaneously agreed: "Hey! Let's mangle Donna Troy's continuity with a whole new origin story, just because we can! There's nothing we enjoy better than painfully gratuitous retconning!"

That may not be exactly how you imagined them reaching that decision, but that's the impression a reader could get. (Heck, when I first read that story arc, years after it had been published, I found myself feeling shocked by it, and not in a good way!)

A few years ago I heard a very different version of how the need for such a story was forced upon Wolfman and Perez by higher authority, regardless of their own feelings about the great job they had already done with "Who is Donna Troy?" back around 1983.

Here's the version I heard in another online discussion somewhere (I can't recall where), and while I don't know for a fact that it is correct, I find it horribly plausible. Combining what I heard with logical extrapolation to fill in the gaps, it seems to have gone like this (unless the rumor was dead wrong, which is conceivable):

******************************

When George Perez signed on to be the penciller and a co-plotter for the Post-COIE Wonder Woman title, he thought the first story arc on that title would be the functional equivalent of John Byrne's "Man of Steel" mini for Superman, and of Frank Miller's "Year One" arc for Batman. In other words, he thought the first several issues would be "a more detailed retelling of Wonder Woman's origin story from several years ago, when she was just starting a career as a superhero!"

Perez expected that, after the first story arc on the new WW title, the storytelling would suddenly "jump forward several years" to a time when Diana was now a very well-established, highly respected veteran superhero, who had been friends with all the other old-timers (Silver Age JLA members, for instance), for years and years! Perez didn't think the mission statement was to reboot her as "the newest, least experienced superheroine on the block, 'just now' making her debut at a time when the JLA and the Teen Titans already are well-established and have been for a long time!"

But then some editor at DC had a wild mood swing and decided that the second approach I mentioned, with Diana staying very young and inexperienced and naive about how things worked in the outside world because she had only just started exploring it, would be a brilliant premise for Diana's new series.

One problem with that decision was that it had already been decided elsewhere that all previous Teen Titans continuity was still in force! Donna Troy, for instance, had still been one of the founding members of the original line-up, several years earlier in DCU time (when all the original Titans were what, maybe 13 or 14 years old?), and thus Donna had been the first Wonder Girl for a long time before this new kid on the block (Wonder Woman) came along!

Wolfman and Perez had never wanted such a ridiculously unbalanced situation to arise! ("Wonder Woman is the green rookie following in the footsteps of the veteran old-timer known as Wonder Girl? Isn't that backwards?") But now they found that, through no fault of their own, their previous story "Who is Donna Troy?" had just been cut off at the knees as absolutely impossible in the Post-Crisis continuity as it was now being mandated from on high. If Donna already had superpowers and the name "Wonder Girl" for several years before Diana first visited the USA, then Diana couldn't possibly have rescued a traumatized little girl from a burning building and then taken her back home to receive superpowers and be trained as an Amazon as per Donna's previous origin story, could she?

So Wolfman and Perez found themselves with a knotty problem. It was still in continuity that Donna had been Wonder Girl for a long time now -- but she now needed a new Post-Crisis Origin Story in a hurry, even if Marv and George had never felt there was anything wrong with the other one they'd given her! Apparently they tried to do frantic damage control by saying, "Okay, we need to find some new excuse for Donna to have powers remarkably similar to Diana's, and for sentimental reasons, it would be a good idea if we had it all tie in with figures of Greek Myth in some way, even if we can't use the Amazons this time. Huh . . . what if Donna was secretly raised on another planet by the authentic Titans of the old days? What if she's some sort of 'seedling' who was imbued with superhuman strength and all that jazz? Hey, it's better than nothing!"


Titans Hunt is actually a great story in my opinion, the comic had lacked any real direction for about three years but Titans Hunt gave it back a kind of unpredictability it had lacked for a long time... there were a couple okay issues after Titans Hunt but after that they ramped up the awful Team Titans plotline which had already interrupted Titans Hunt in a really abrupt manner.

It so happens that very recently I reread the entire "Titans Hunt" thing, for the first time in a few years. I agree that it showed Marv Wolfman was getting on top of his game again -- by and large -- but I just didn't have the heart to keep pushing further forward to refresh my memory of the stories about Lord Chaos and the Team Titans and so forth. I suppose I will eventually, but I sure don't feel a mad rush of enthusiasm for the idea!

[NotSuper]

Danny, Freakin', Chase.
This.

He was pretty much Cousin Oliver for the super-hero set.

[Pól Rua]

For me, it was after issue 65.
Basically, there's a huge story arc where Trigun tries to take over the world, the Titans save the day, and then, in 65, New York City comes out to sing their praises.
It really felt like the end of the series. Basically, everything up until then was leading to this, and, afterwards, the series seemed to kind of thrash about seemingly at random for some sort of direction.

[Anxy]

When the series went direct-only for first-run issues was when I started to not really understand what was happening to Teen Titans. Same with Outsiders - that publishing decision sent both titles down the toilet, as far as I'm concerned.

[Wilder Midnight]

For me it was when the Crisis hit. I believe that would the New teen Titans baxter edition series issue #12 or 13. There was an immediate downshift in quality. Not even a few months after it was told Liliths origin story arc was suddenly a ret con...as were a good number of Titans stories told over the years. Really upset me. Things have never been the same since.

[Darrell D.]

When the series went direct-only for first-run issues was when I started to not really understand what was happening to Teen Titans. Same with Outsiders - that publishing decision sent both titles down the toilet, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, the first 6 issues with 'Return of Trigon' was good, and that was it. The Luis Garcia issues are worth having only for the art.

[Darrell D.]

"Shades of Gray" was perhaps the last real highlight and continued a piece from the Judas Contract. Where the Titans found out that Slade couldn't stand trial for what he did. And that the government helped him get by with it.


Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Judas Contract. The art was just...ugh. Giordano and who ever the hell else was the worse choice for inking Perez. Rereading it, I can't believe it gets held up as high as it does. I liked it when I was like 13, but I liked a lot of crap when I was that age. It was just so goddam overwrought, and the aftermath was worse, culminating in a full issue of the green kid being emo before emo was cool.

[titanfan]

I hope whichever DC editor decided to make the move to Baxter format and (eventually) take Titans/Outsiders/Legion/etc. out of the newstands got quickly fired. That killed the momentum of so many DC franchises, especially since comic stores weren't all that plentiful back then.

It was the start of the "jump the shark" for New Teen Titans. That and they had several years where absolutely nothing happened--no changing in team dynamics or anything.

[hb695]

making Jericho the big bad in Titans Hunt.

[earl]

I think like the Teen Titans got totally screwed up by the original Crisis. It ran on entropy for a while, but there was so much going on in the rest of the DC line, this book just faded into the background and repeats.

[DeTroyes]

End of Titans Hunt.

The series was never the same and became among the worst comics ever written, trying as it was to coast on its past glories. Truly, a dreadful, dreadful era.

[Vic Vega]

I would have to say one of the stupidest and funniest issues would be the one where Changeling cries the WHOLE FREAKING ISSUE while trying to kill Deathstroke, and then he cries while he and Deathstroke have coffee and talk about the underage chick Deathstroke was banging.
Seriously. Even as a taste impaired kid I knew this was crap.

That's possibly one of the worst isues of Titans ever. It's time capsule bad. Changeling is a emo loser so patheic that the guy he's trying to kill takes pity on him.

But for me Titan's hunt is the bottom. I can't beef about the art because going from Perez to JGL to Ed Barretto isn't that bad. It fact its pretty freaking great.

I liked Pantha and her monsterous little family clan. I saw where DC was trying to take the thematic concepts that keep the X-Men current for themselves. I got it. The X-Men are outsiders. Unfortunately the Titans are INSIDERS(they're the buddies and more of the Justice League-can't get more inside than that) a so the attempt to switch gears was a failure. And a clumsy failure at that.

What D.C should have done was boot Wolfman off the book once he was visibly shot(and it was visible-issues of nothing but Changeling weeping). and put another fan favorite writer of the time on it like Mike Baron(there was a time when DC and Marvel couldn't give that guy enough work).

[Darrell D.]

What D.C should have done was boot Wolfman off the book once he was visibly shot(and it was visible-issues of nothing but Changeling weeping). and put another fan favorite writer of the time on it like Mike Baron(there was a time when DC and Marvel couldn't give that guy enough work).

Oh hell yeah. I remember the first few issues of Baron's Flash run having The Titans and Cyborg show up, and I liked the brief take he had on the characters.

[DeTroyes]

That's possibly one of the worst isues of Titans ever. It's time capsule bad. Changeling is a emo loser so patheic that the guy he's trying to kill takes pity on him.

And yet, that issue got voted as one of the best Beast Boy/Changling stories ever.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/05/13/the-greatest-beast-boychangeling-stories-ever-told/

(and personally, I rank it as one of my favorite arcs in NTT)

[Shellhead]

And yet, that issue got voted as one of the best Beast Boy/Changling stories ever.

That's because Gar was almost always depicted as a bratty and annoying punk kid, going all the way back to his first appearance in Doom Patrol. Just about any other attitude was refreshing at the time, even whiny loser hanging out with his worst enemy.

[Hawk_fan]

For me, Wolfman's New Teen Titans started going downhill when Lilith was revealed to be the daughter of Thia of the Titans of Myths. Crisis, the introduction of Danny Chase and the "evil Joey" of Titans Hunt helped continue the downward spiral.

[Darrell D.]

And yet, that issue got voted as one of the best Beast Boy/Changling stories ever.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/05/13/the-greatest-beast-boychangeling-stories-ever-told/

(and personally, I rank it as one of my favorite arcs in NTT)

And it was ranked number 3? Dear God.

[Saturn Girl]

I thought the culmination of the "Trial of the Terminator" story that pitted Changeling against Deathstroke was one of the best stories in the entire history of the Teen Titans. I know I'm not alone in that thought - CBR visitors nominated it for both the top 10 Marv Wolfman stories and top 10 Beast Boy stories ever told.

For me, the shark jumping moment for Teen Titans was as soon as Bill Jaaska started on the book. That late in the game you could tell Wolfman's heart just wasn't in it anymore. His lack of spark and the horrendous art pretty much killed the book for me.

[Justice~!]

Confession time...Titans Hunt was actually my gateway into DC comics.

Sure, before that I had an old Superman digest with Ambush Bug and the Legion of Substitute Heroes that I barely understood at the time, as well as some issue where an Irish dude with a Jack O Lantern for a head rubbed a blarney stone to get powers or something, but that was about it.

But man, I have fond memories of Titans Hunt, being the only one I really knew on that team being Cyborg. Death, destruction, every issue had a massive cliffhanger and the art was *INSANE* - Grummett was on fire! Loved Phantasm, both the original concept and then what "he" seemed to become afterwards. His visual was awesome.

To this day it is one of my favorites.

[WorstThingUS]

I thought the culmination of the "Trial of the Terminator" story that pitted Changeling against Deathstroke was one of the best stories in the entire history of the Teen Titans. I know I'm not alone in that thought - CBR visitors nominated it for both the top 10 Marv Wolfman stories and top 10 Beast Boy stories ever told.

And you're all wrong thanks to little things in the story like "middle-aged man having sex with an underaged, mentally disturbed girl."

[ryerye17]

And you're all wrong thanks to little things in the story like "middle-aged man having sex with an underaged, mentally disturbed girl."

so pedophilia automatically is equal to bad writing? I'm sorry are we not allowed to explore taboo topics?

Goodbye Watchmen, then.

Don't you think that we should take a look at this from outside the box perspective and not just say it's a bad comic because there's that whole pedophilia thing involved? Judge if it's badly written, not because you believe that the images shown are bad.

[Darrell D.]

I thought the culmination of the "Trial of the Terminator" story that pitted Changeling against Deathstroke was one of the best stories in the entire history of the Teen Titans. I know I'm not alone in that thought - CBR visitors nominated it for both the top 10 Marv Wolfman stories and top 10 Beast Boy stories ever told.


Except the story really is horribly written. I have no idea how that could be on that list. Then again, Titans usually gets a pass for nostalgia sake.

[Darrell D.]

so pedophilia automatically is equal to bad writing? I'm sorry are we not allowed to explore taboo topics?
Goodbye Watchmen, then.

Don't you think that we should take a look at this from outside the box perspective and not just say it's a bad comic because there's that whole pedophilia thing involved? Judge if it's badly written, not because you believe that the images shown are bad.

I'm going on record to say the book equals bad writing because it was written badly. The creepy aspects of Gar and Deathstroke and the underage chick has nothing to do with the quality of the story (and most of the Titans stories at the time, which were pretty bad as well.)

[WorstThingUS]

so pedophilia automatically is equal to bad writing? I'm sorry are we not allowed to explore taboo topics?



It wasn't an "exploration of a taboo subject." It's the utter insanity of 16-year-old talking about his dead girlfriend with the middle-aged man who used to bone her. These "the only person I can talk to is ironically my worst enemy because they understand this" stories usually don't involve statutory rape of the mentally ill. Even for comics this is beyond stupid. It's Dr. Doom and Magneto crying over 9/11 stupid. No one could make this work, least of all Marv Wolfman who never this kind of writer to begin with and was far from his peak Marvel years. It's a horrible idea written poorly.

[RockinRobin182]

Feh, I don't know. I loved the New Teen Titans and I read them all (relatively) recently. I don't think its a nostalgia thing, I think it's a "people liked it" thing. The Deathstroke/Terra thing was messed up, but it was supposed to be. And Gar being upset wasn't bad (in my eyes), because he was always the joking one. This change of pace after a traumatic event worked for me. *shrugs*

That being said, it does not work not for Gar's out of character love-lorn weepy emo annoying lovesick TeenNick Degrassi emotions he currently has for Raven.