Bendis talks about his Writing style and NA #16

[lonesomefool]

So, Bendis does these podcasts where he answers questions from people on his board. He talked about decompression alligations and New Avengers #16.

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=62246

Q: This is great news, Mr. Bendis, and congrats on working with one of my TOP favorite artists, Marc Silvestri. Looks like I'll be buying something of yours soon and having no choice but to love it.

I do have a question for you, and I'm not sugar coating it. This is your exact quote from the Daredevil DVD when talking about the 90's when pinup artists ruled comics.

"I was actually working at a comic store during this period. I was in college and I was working in a comic store and people would come up and not remember if they bought a particular issue, and it was like 5 dollars an issue, and they'd be like (did I buy this?), and I'm like wow...if I took 5 dollars off you and slapped you, you'd remember. You know, so, and I'm ...well, their not having any kind of experience, you know, not a REAL experience."

My question is this. How is this any different than your decompression stuff? While people might remember the story arc, a common complaint against this type of writing is that "nothing happened" in certain issues of the arc, so isn't that EXACTLY the same as having no experience like your comments directed toward the pinup artist days?

A: I actually don't see..first of all, I don't see my work as decompressed. I know that's a term that's been used to describe work by me and Warren Ellis and some other people. I don't sit there and go, here's an 11 page story, let's see how far I can stretch it. In fact, if anything, I feel I've crammed the issue full of stuff as we talked about in our last podcast. I would never in my life write something that I, that was half a story or less than what I would consider be worth the time that... the story's just being told differently. And, what you may not be getting in as many scenes, or as many words, hopefully you're getting something more. You're getting more subtext, you're getting more character moments, you're getting ideas, observations and the time taken to express those ideas and observations that you weren't getting in comics before, or you don't get in a lot of comics today. So, that's my feeling about it. I sit with the script for months before I even hand it in and make some hard decisions about whether I think this is worth anybody's money. Sometimes junk a whole storyline or junk a whole direction because I go, you know what, that's not worth people's time or money. I don't care what I think I'm doing, it's not worth someone's two dollars.
It's that hidden magic of storytelling, it's like making music or anything, it's all intangible. It's gotta be my instincts, all said and done. After I hand it in, I have to listen to the feedback from my editors, and take it under serious consideration. There's a script I just handed in where a lot of people read it and everybody got the same note unrelated to knowing that anyone else had said it. That was to take my third scene and make it my first scene. And, everyone gave me the same note, it was hilarious. I would be ridicious not to take that note and to apply it. It's not about me and my glorious words, and the magic that is me, it's about telling a story the best way it can be told. Making sure the people are enjoying themselves as much as possible.

Q: I won't get into the "boom...there's the shot" comments, but if I did, I'd be asking how you justify New Avengers #16 and it's gazillion splash pages.

A: Absolutely, I can justify it. When you have an artist like McNiven, you have a story that is taking a complete different direction than the book has been told, ahead of time I thought that the uses of the splash pages..and to tell that particular story was absolutely the best way to do it. I handed it in to everyone I work with and I said, is this gonna work...and I said to Steve, do you want to do this? He could have easily said, dude what are you doing? He completely got it and when I saw the files in the fourteen different steps that you see them, which is layout, pencil and ink, coloring...I was like, this will completely work. I could have easily gone back in and written something on top of those even after, but I thought they did work to the point if I had written something on top of them, I would have yanked it off because I thought the images were perfect. Now, some people read it and loved it, they spent time on the images, really kind of embraced the artwork, kinda almost felt the almost supernatural explosion of it. And others just flipped through the comic really fast and judged their entertainment value versus how many words they read. It's funny like, whose critique is more valid, the guy who liked it or the guy who didn't like it? I think about this all the time. There's one guy who came up to me in L.A. and didn't realize you could even do that with a comic book. He liked the nine panel grid and that's all he ever gets out of comics and when he sees a new idea expressed, a new way of achieving a scene, that he never thought could be done or never thought of doing before, he as a fledling comic book writer or artist was kinda amazed and really made him sit down and think about the page. That's what I do all day, I think about the page and what the page can do. I also think it's funny because it's like the least thing you'd expect from me. I thought that on it's own was worth telling the story that way.

[Keith_Martineau]

This is all logical and organic to me. I read the stuff and I get it.

I don't fall back on buzzwords from the 90's to criticize work just because I'm angry about some other storyline a writer did.

There's a huge fundemental difference between the splash page fad of the 90's, and the "splash pages" in NA16. In the 90's, the splash pages were essentially pinups with the characters doing lame posses and posturing. It was used in place of proper storytelling, taking the time to properly introduce a character. Instead Superguy would blast someone off panel, his foot would appear in the next panel, and the next page would be a huge splash page of him doing a ridiculous pose saying "I AM SUPERGUY!." Then he'd attack, and there'd be another splash page of him fighting/posing instead of a fight sequence.

The pages in NA16 are sequential storytelling, that clearly demonstrates the creation of this Michael/Collective thing. If you'd taken each panel and shrunk it to fit two panels on a page, it wouldn't have had the same effect.

There is no such thing as a rule of how many words or panels are required to be in a comic. Implying that there is, limits what you can actually do with a single issue of a comic book.

[BizarroBeachHead]

Well, he was right about one thing for sure....
When you have an artist like McNiven....
McNiven made that issue, and it looked fantastic.

Personally, I think an artist like McNiven could justify an entire comic of nothing but 22 full splash pages, but thats just me....

[DJ Rustbucket]

Q: Speaking of the Masters, you mentioned planning on doing something with them. Will they be led by Zemo, or would that interfere with Fabian's T-Bolts plans?
A: Are they still publishing Thunderbolts? Too soon to say.

Oh SNAP!!

[Shellhead]

There's one guy who came up to me in L.A. and didn't realize you could even do that with a comic book. He liked the nine panel grid and that's all he ever gets out of comics and when he sees a new idea expressed, a new way of achieving a scene, that he never thought could be done or never thought of doing before, he as a fledling comic book writer or artist was kinda amazed and really made him sit down and think about the page.

Obvious strawman here. We're supposed to believe that there is a comic fan in existence who wants to work in the industry but has only seen nine-panel pages? He's never seen a splash page before? Bendis is being dishonest about this... he can't even remember if the guy wanted to be a writer or an artist? Pphhh.

[Effect]

Wouldn't that depend on the type of comics the guy had been reading before hand? I doubt all comics do the same thing and there is a chance the guy hadn't read one like that or before he wanted to get into the industry just didn't pay attention to it and now he is. As for the writer or artist situation, do you remember everything about a person you just meet for a few minutes and never see them again. The guy wanting to be a writer or artist isn't the important part of what he's saying, it's the observation the guy made that is. Him remembering which one he wanted to be isn't really that important.

[DJ Rustbucket]

Obvious strawman here. We're supposed to believe that there is a comic fan in existence who wants to work in the industry but has only seen nine-panel pages? He's never seen a splash page before? Bendis is being dishonest about this... he can't even remember if the guy wanted to be a writer or an artist? Pphhh.

I'm sure there's someone out there who's only read Watchmen or Marvel Essential's or something and decided that's a career they'd like to persue. Maybe it was somebody new to comics. Who knows? Kinda like when you're a little kid and you want to be an astronaut, but have no idea about the training and conditioning it'll take. You just want to do something because it looks cool.

And hey, at least he was familiar with nine panel grids and not Force Works or Youngblood or...uh...Youngblood...

[Mo S.]

Two of the splash pages in NA #16 are:

-- the earth as seen from space

-- the exact same shot of the earth as seen from space, with a swirling red energy approaching it.

There is nothing high concept about it, no story point that is not immediately obvious from the first fraction of a second glimpse at the page. Other than being impressed the McNiven bothered to correctly research geography and landforms, unlike many of his contemporaries. To say that there is "subtext" there is seriously stretching it.

[Effect]

I thought he was refering to the length of dialogue when he talked about subtext, not when he was talking about the #16 of New Avengers. That those images were more about drawing the reader in so that they could feel the nature of the situation as it happen?

[BlackKnight]

I thought he was refering to the length of dialogue when he talked about subtext, not when he was talking about the #16 of New Avengers. That those images were more about drawing the reader in so that they could feel the nature of the situation as it happen?

Except for me they did not draw me in, they felt like a waste of space, and don't get me wrong, if splash pages are done right, they can be great, look at the Thor issue that is all splash pages, it tells a whole story.

To me it felt like they where just showing off the artist, and that all the fans would uuu and aww at the pretty pictures and not notice the serious lack of forward movement of story in 9 pages... But that is just my opinion.

[Effect]

True I can understand that. I can see what an artist or writer is trying to do, yet sometimes I don't feel that way. Especially if you read a few comics a month. That's really my main problem with comics. It always seems like there just isn't enough. To much time is spent on the art instead of advancing the story.

Which is why I actually like events because it seems story takes the front seat over art to advance things. Take IC for example, there is a lot of dialogue to go along with action, which is what I love. Breaks in action or talking is nice but when you get something once a month it's annoying either way.

[XPac]

Personally, it worked well enough for me. What Bendis did in make me feel less like I was reading a comicbook and more like I was watching a movie. Which for something like this, where's you're building up a character like the Collective at least to me was a nice effect.

[DDM]

He can deny all the story decompression he wants, but sometimes an apple is an apple. Trying to call it a cinamatic effect is just denying he writes extremely decompressed stories with little substance to back up such decompressed stories. Comic books are not movies.

[dazzler_slave]

He can deny all the story decompression he wants, but sometimes an apple is an apple. Trying to call it a cinamatic effect is just denying he writes extremely decompressed stories with little substance to back up such decompressed stories. Comic books are not movies.
DDM, you took the words right out of my mouth!

[Mo S.]

One of the things to keep in mind, before we pounce (much further) on this, is that this entire "interview" is off-the-cuff. This is a casual Q and A session, with answers that haven't been thought out ahead of time. Which is not to say that there are some subjects touched on that Bendis hasn't thought about in depth before - the critiques of decompression, the large number of splash pages, the "wandering" nature of plots - are not exactly something that have only recently been tossed at him.

[BlackKnight]

He can deny all the story decompression he wants, but sometimes an apple is an apple. Trying to call it a cinamatic effect is just denying he writes extremely decompressed stories with little substance to back up such decompressed stories. Comic books are not movies.

You know I never have understood why people want to compare comic books to movies, if you have to compare a comic to a some type of other media the closest you can get is a TV series. Now imagine that you only see one episode of this TV series a month, would you not want ever episode to advance the plot, especially since you only get to see it once a month.
Issue 16 would be like talking about 1/3 of a TV episode and just showing pictures and nothing else, would you be happy with that, I know I wouldn't.

[XPac]

He can deny all the story decompression he wants, but sometimes an apple is an apple. Trying to call it a cinamatic effect is just denying he writes extremely decompressed stories with little substance to back up such decompressed stories. Comic books are not movies.

Just my opinion... but I think he often does try to write comics like he writes a movie using a lot of those storytelling techniques, and I think he does it sucessfully.

I hate to bring the arguement back to sales, but the fact he's doing it this way and sales are good so if it ain't broken fixing it isn't all that necessary at least yet.

[XPac]

You know I never have understood why people want to compare comic books to movies, if you have to compare a comic to a some type of other media the closest you can get is a TV series. Now imagine that you only see one episode of this TV series a month, would you not want ever episode to advance the plot, especially since you only get to see it once a month.
Issue 16 would be like talking about 1/3 of a TV episode and just showing pictures and nothing else, would you be happy with that, I know I wouldn't.

It depends on what TV show you're talking about.

I'd argue it's one third of a three part story arc TV show. Comicbooks these days are rarely one shots... they usually are part of larger story arcs. In TV show terms it usually ends with TO BE CONTINUED.

And when you have a TV series that's in multiple story arcs, you basically have a movie broken into smaller parts. Kind of like a comic book. I'd say shows like Lost or 24 or Prison Break are kind of made like really long movies too.

[Effect]

He does seem to do it well but one has to wonder, just because it's being done well does it mean it should be done this way?

Goes back to a situation where a group of people or a person can do something, did they ever stop and think if they should do it?

[Mo S.]

You know I never have understood why people want to compare comic books to movies, if you have to compare a comic to a some type of other media the closest you can get is a TV series. Now imagine that you only see one episode of this TV series a month, would you not want ever episode to advance the plot, especially since you only get to see it once a month.
Issue 16 would be like talking about 1/3 of a TV episode and just showing pictures and nothing else, would you be happy with that, I know I wouldn't.

The only current comic that comes close to "cinematic" for me it Millar and Hitch's "Ultimates 2" and that's because of the large-scope plot and Hitch's incredible story-telling ability. There are times in previews when I see B & W Hitch panels, without dialog, and I don't actually need the dialog to get the gist of what is happening.

I think that's one of the reasons I like Alias and Powers and am not nearly as fond of New Avengers (team storytelling issues aside) - in the first two titles, Bendis has an artist who understands him AND how he tells stories and adjusts the art. I didn't "feel" that connection between Bendis and Finch and, as good as I think Steve McNiven is, I didn't see it in #16, either.

[XPac]

He does seem to do it well but one has to wonder, just because it's being done well does it mean it should be done this way?



I don't think there's such a thing as a "wrong" way to write a comicbook. If someone wants to do it differently, let them do it, throw it out there, and let the consumers vote with their wallets on whether it should or shouldn't be done.

[BlackKnight]

It depends on what TV show you're talking about.

I'd argue it's one third of a three part story arc TV show. Comicbooks these days are rarely one shots... they usually are part of larger story arcs. In TV show terms it usually ends with TO BE CONTINUED.

And when you have a TV series that's in multiple story arcs, you basically have a movie broken into smaller parts. Kind of like a comic book. I'd say shows like Lost or 24 or Prison Break are kind of made like really long movies too.

Each issue is like an episode of a TV series, so imagine only seeing one episode of Lost a month, and that is it. One comic = one episode not four.

Also the idea that a TV series in muliple arcs is like a movie is not quite correct, a movie is 1 1/2 hours to 4 hours long, it has a begining, middle and end, except on rare occasions like LOTR or Narnia, however a TV series can go on and on in one arc, heck you can have whole seasons or more devoted to one arc (example: SG1 and SG: Atlantis). So, once again imagine having only one episode of your favorite show on in a month and 1/3 of it has no words and is only pictures. Would you like that?

So once again comparing an ongoing comic book to a movie is inaccurate.
Now you might be able to compare a limited series to a movie, but that is a different ball game.

[BlackKnight]

The only current comic that comes close to "cinematic" for me it Millar and Hitch's "Ultimates 2" and that's because of the large-scope plot and Hitch's incredible story-telling ability. There are times in previews when I see B & W Hitch panels, without dialog, and I don't actually need the dialog to get the gist of what is happening.

I think that's one of the reasons I like Alias and Powers and am not nearly as fond of New Avengers (team storytelling issues aside) - in the first two titles, Bendis has an artist who understands him AND how he tells stories and adjusts the art. I didn't "feel" that connection between Bendis and Finch and, as good as I think Steve McNiven is, I didn't see it in #16, either.

Ultimates over all plot reminds me more of a season of 24, but I can see where you are coming from regarding that.

I to enjoyed his Alias comic, so I really don't understand why he droped the ball so badly with NA (My opinion on this). Perhaps the artist has something to do with, perhaps not.

[Mo S.]

Each issue is like an episode of a TV series, so imagine only seeing one episode of Lost a month, and that is it. One comic = one episode not four.

Also the idea that a TV series in muliple arcs is like a movie is not quite correct, a movie is 1 1/2 hours to 4 hours long, it has a begining, middle and end, except on rare occasions like LOTR or Narnia, however a TV series can go on and on in one arc, heck you can have whole seasons or more devoted to one arc (example: SG1 and SG: Atlantis). So, once again imagine having only one episode of your favorite show on in a month and 1/3 of it has no words and is only pictures. Would you like that?

So once again comparing an ongoing comic book to a movie is inaccurate.
Now you might be able to compare a limited series to a movie, but that is a different ball game.

IMO, some of the best (and potential best) new writers to come into comics from outside media have been TV writers, NOT novelists or full screen writers - simply because TV writers understand the idea of delivering satisfying individual story AND on-going story development. Scenes in a movie and chapters in a novel aren't the same thing as an issue of a comic, which has to stand alone (which is something, IMO, NA #16 failed to do).

I read an interview with TV/movie writers (in my local paper!) and Lindelof (Ultimate Wolverine vs Hulk) commented that he first approached writing a comic the way he did a TV script and found he had FAR too much to fit in 22 pages and had to pare it down hard.

[XPac]

Each issue is like an episode of a TV series, so imagine only seeing one episode of Lost a month, and that is it. One comic = one episode not four.

Also the idea that a TV series in muliple arcs is like a movie is not quite correct, a movie is 1 1/2 hours to 4 hours long, it has a begining, middle and end, except on rare occasions like LOTR or Narnia, however a TV series can go on and on in one arc, heck you can have whole seasons or more devoted to one arc (example: SG1 and SG: Atlantis). So, once again imagine having only one episode of your favorite show on in a month and 1/3 of it has no words and is only pictures. Would you like that?

So once again comparing an ongoing comic book to a movie is inaccurate.
Now you might be able to compare a limited series to a movie, but that is a different ball game.

My original point was actually that he was writing a comic like a movie by using movie storytelling techniques... but that aside, yes comics are a different medium than TV shows and movies. And a big part of that is that they only come out once a month.

It would definately be hard to take getting a third of your fave TV then having to wait a month to see the rest... but I think that's the whole reasoning behind the "end of the season cliff hanger" where you have to wait 3-4 months to get the rest of the story. Comics are like that... they use the TO BE CONTINUED format all the time where you always have to wait a month to see what happens next.

As for the "would you like that" arguement... considering NA sells pretty well, I'll argue enough people like the way he writes NA to justify him writing it that way.

[BlackKnight]

My original point was actually that he was writing a comic like a movie by using movie storytelling techniques... but that aside, yes comics are a different medium than TV shows and movies. And a big part of that is that they only come out once a month.

It would definately be hard to take getting a third of your fave TV then having to wait a month to see the rest... but I think that's the whole reasoning behind the "end of the season cliff hanger" where you have to wait 3-4 months to get the rest of the story. Comics are like that... they use the TO BE CONTINUED format all the time where you always have to wait a month to see what happens next.

As for the "would you like that" arguement... considering NA sells pretty well, I'll argue enough people like the way he writes NA to justify him writing it that way.

I am not going to argue the sales of NA, there are reasons I feel it sells well and none have to do with Bendis's writing style.

That put to the side, a TV series cliff hanger is like the final issue before the big payoff in a multipart arc. One episode of a TV series is one issue of a comic, it would be like having 6 episodes of lost spread over 6 months. I am sure that you would expect the plot to move along and if not major things, then at least some minor to medium level things to happen in each episode. This is not happening in NA, where you have whole issues that you just kind of scratch your head and wonder why the plot did not advance in 22 pages.

[BlackKnight]

IMO, some of the best (and potential best) new writers to come into comics from outside media have been TV writers, NOT novelists or full screen writers - simply because TV writers understand the idea of delivering satisfying individual story AND on-going story development. Scenes in a movie and chapters in a novel aren't the same thing as an issue of a comic, which has to stand alone (which is something, IMO, NA #16 failed to do).

I read an interview with TV/movie writers (in my local paper!) and Lindelof (Ultimate Wolverine vs Hulk) commented that he first approached writing a comic the way he did a TV script and found he had FAR too much to fit in 22 pages and had to pare it down hard.

I have to agree with you totally, I personally love Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, because even though they are 6 issue arcs, each issue is advancing the plot. This just simple does not hold true with Bendis's NA comic.

[XPac]

I am not going to argue the sales of NA, there are reasons I feel it sells well and none have to do with Bendis's writing style.

That put to the side, a TV series cliff hanger is like the final issue before the big payoff in a multipart arc. One episode of a TV series is one issue of a comic, it would be like having 6 episodes of lost spread over 6 months. I am sure that you would expect the plot to move along and if not major things, then at least some minor to medium level things to happen in each episode. This is not happening in NA, where you have whole issues that you just kind of scratch your head and wonder why the plot did not advance in 22 pages.

Again, I wouldn't compare a comic to most TV shows.

A lot of shows are pretty self contained. Most comics are not anymore. They're usually made to be a part of a multiple issue story arc. To me EVERY issue of a comic is a season finale cliff hanger (except the last issue of the story arc or a one shot). It always has been... you read the issue, it ends with TO BE CONTINUED and you have to wait and entire month to find out what happens next. So yeah, comics are like having 6 episodes spread over 6 months... they've always been that way.

And I will disagree that the plot does not advance in NA. It just that it does so at a different pace than most comics. As I argued in a different post, it's simply a different style of writing a comic... and there's no "right" or "wrong" way to do it. There are only things you personally like or don't like... in which case you are free to vote with your wallet on whether or not it should be allowed to continue to be published (or buy it anyways even if you don't like it if that's your thing ... it's a free country).

[BlackKnight]

Again, I wouldn't compare a comic to most TV shows.

A lot of shows are pretty self contained. Most comics are not anymore. They're usually made to be a part of a multiple issue story arc. To me EVERY issue of a comic is a season finale cliff hanger (except the last issue of the story arc or a one shot). It always has been... you read the issue, it ends with TO BE CONTINUED and you have to wait and entire month to find out what happens next. So yeah, comics are like having 6 episodes spread over 6 months... they've always been that way.

And I will disagree that the plot does not advance in NA. It just that it does so at a different pace than most comics. As I argued in a different post, it's simply a different style of writing a comic... and there's no "right" or "wrong" way to do it. There are only things you personally like or don't like... in which case you are free to vote with your wallet on whether or not it should be allowed to continue to be published (or buy it anyways even if you don't like it if that's your thing ... it's a free country).

I will agree with you on one thing you said, there is no right or wrong way to write a comic, there is just opinion regarding that.

However in regards to the rest of it, how can a ever comic be like a tv series cliff hanger, that is the strangest comparision I have ever read.
Every Serialized TV show, has cliffhangers during the season. A comic is like one episode of TV series, just on a monthly bases, that to me is the most logical way to look at it.
If you look at it from what you described, then ever comic whould have to end with someones death, or some tramatic event, and well, NA sure doesn't.

[XPac]

I will agree with you on one thing you said, there is no right or wrong way to write a comic, there is just opinion regarding that.

However in regards to the rest of it, how can a ever comic be like a tv series cliff hanger, that is the strangest comparision I have ever read.
Every Serialized TV show, has cliffhangers during the season. A comic is like one episode of TV series, just on a monthly bases, that to me is the most logical way to look at it.
If you look at it from what you described, then ever comic whould have to end with someones death, or some tramatic event, and well, NA sure doesn't.

It shouldn't necessarily end with someone's death... just something that gives you a big enough reason to buy the next issue. It should more often than not be something relatively climactic. The Collective seemingly killing off Alpha Flight and moving towards the US while the Pres. orders the Avengers works as a descent example of that in my book. You have to wait an entire month for the next issue... a comic should end with something that'll leave you with a descent 30 day buzz.

[BlackKnight]

It shouldn't necessarily end with someone's death... just something that gives you a big enough reason to buy the next issue. It should more often than not be something relatively climactic. The Collective seemingly killing off Alpha Flight and moving towards the US while the Pres. orders the Avengers works as a descent example of that in my book. You have to wait an entire month for the next issue... a comic should end with something that'll leave you with a descent 30 day buzz.

Well, then issue 16 failed for me, I was bored by it and wondered where the rest of the story was. I was not buzzed to see the next issue, I was annoyed because the issue felt like about half and issue spread out into one.

I think you and I have similar Ideas on what a comic should be, we just have different opinions on what comics meet those ideas.

So it is just one of those agree to disagree moments I think.

[Harold of the Rocks]

I will agree with you on one thing you said, there is no right or wrong way to write a comic, there is just opinion regarding that.What I don't get is if you agree there is no 'wrong way', how can you use the TV show analogy and say before watching it that you wouldn't enjoy it if it had no dialogue? If one-third of a story had no dialogue, sight unseen, you would automatically dismiss it? It seems to me you think there is indeed a 'formula' or a 'wrong way' to create and/or tell a story. If your favorite TV series were to announce part one of a three part story, and the entire episode happens without dialogue, are you telling me you wouldn't watch it? Because you 'know beforehand' you wouldn't like it? I doubt it. And it might, just maybe be the most brilliant thing you ever saw in a TV show. There seems to be a contradiction in what you're saying. Either there is a wrong way, or there is not. It seems to me while you say there is no wrong way, you actually argue that there is...

I understand you didn't like how NA#16 was done, and that to you it was not done in a satisfying manner. Does that automatically make the format 'wrong'? I would imagine there is some creative team out there somewhere that could do nine consecutive splash pages to your satisfaction, if you are sincere about there being no 'wrong way'.

Incidentally, how many 'last chances' are you gonna give New Avengers? I thought you were gonna drop this after Sentry, after Ronin, after Spider-Woman... maybe I'm remembering wrong. I think it's odd if you're still buying this given your seemingly consistent dissatisfaction with the book. But hey, the more the merrier. And don't take it personal, BK. I think you add a little spice to the community. Predictable when it involves the New Avengers, but spice nonetheless. As much as I'm diggin' the New Avengers, it's healthy to have some disagreement on these threads, and they just wouldn't be the same without ya. ;)

[BlackKnight]

What I don't get is if you agree there is no 'wrong way', how can you use the TV show analogy and say before watching it that you wouldn't enjoy it if it had no dialogue? If one-third of a story had no dialogue, sight unseen, you would automatically dismiss it? It seems to me you think there is indeed a 'formula' or a 'wrong way' to create and/or tell a story. If your favorite TV series were to announce part one of a three part story, and the entire episode happens without dialogue, are you telling me you wouldn't watch it? Because you 'know beforehand' you wouldn't like it? I doubt it. And it might, just maybe be the most brilliant thing you ever saw in a TV show. There seems to be a contradiction in what you're saying. Either there is a wrong way, or there is not. It seems to me while you say there is no wrong way, you actually argue that there is...

I understand you didn't like how NA#16 was done, and that to you it was not done in a satisfying manner. Does that automatically make the format 'wrong'? I would imagine there is some creative team out there somewhere that could do nine consecutive splash pages to your satisfaction, if you are sincere about there being no 'wrong way'.

Incidentally, how many 'last chances' are you gonna give New Avengers? I thought you were gonna drop this after Sentry, after Ronin, after Spider-Woman... maybe I'm remembering wrong. I think it's odd if you're still buying this given your seemingly consistent dissatisfaction with the book. But hey, the more the merrier. And don't take it personal, BK. I think you add a little spice to the community. Predictable when it involves the New Avengers, but spice nonetheless. As much as I'm diggin' the New Avengers, it's healthy to have some disagreement on these threads, and they just wouldn't be the same without ya. ;)

First I will address the NA last chance thing, people like to bring up, whenever I point out problems with NA. I get the comic for a 1.90, so there you go. I don't sweat it, and I keep up with it incase something changes.

Now as for the TV series thing, I was asking if someone would like having 1/3 of an episode being without dialoge, not 1 out of 3 episodes, because a comic is like one episode of a tv series, not four, three or two, just one.

And yes episodes without dialogue can be good if done right in my opinion. From the TV series stand point the episode of Buffy where the villians steal everyones voices so that they can go around and kill them was great, and made sense.
From a comic stand point the issue of Thor that involved his fight with the midgard serpent was all splash page and the only text was the mythological poem that went with the story, and that was great. It was an epic fight that deserved epic scale and the story was told well that way.

However in my OPINION, 9 pages, two of the earth, and bunch of a guy walking just does not consitute a good use of comic space. I only get one NA comic a month I expect something to happen I know that is a pipedream but I still expect it. When I read the comic in less then 2 mins there is a problem don't you think.

Finally I would like to say thank you for not presenting all of this as facts, but rather your opinion, and for being friendly about it. :D

[StoneGold]

Each issue is like an episode of a TV series, so imagine only seeing one episode of Lost a month, and that is it. One comic = one episode not four.

You don't actually watch Lost, do you? The production schedule on that makes a Kevin Smith book look timely.


OK, maybe not exactly, but there are pretty long stretches with no new episodes.

[Shellhead]

I understand you didn't like how NA#16 was done, and that to you it was not done in a satisfying manner. Does that automatically make the format 'wrong'? I would imagine there is some creative team out there somewhere that could do nine consecutive splash pages to your satisfaction, if you are sincere about there being no 'wrong way'.


While I don't think that nine consecutive splash pages is a good strategy in this format, there is one team that could probably do this right: Warren Ellis and John Cassaday. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they have already done an issue of Planetary with nine consecutive splash pages.

[BlackKnight]

You don't actually watch Lost, do you? The production schedule on that makes a Kevin Smith book look timely.


OK, maybe not exactly, but there are pretty long stretches with no new episodes.

I was just using it as an example, I stoped watching it after the first season, I just didn't find it interesting anymore.

However, you post does not disprove or really even contribute to the converstation so moving on.

[Keith_Martineau]

Each issue is like an episode of a TV series, so imagine only seeing one episode of Lost a month, and that is it.

Heh.
Thats pretty much the pace we've been getting Lost lately.

[BlackKnight]

Heh.
Thats pretty much the pace we've been getting Lost lately.

Like I told stone, it was just and example, you could use any tv series that is supposed to be weekly instead.

However, perhaps Bendis is secretly writing Lost, it would explain why I lost interest in it, when they brought in more charaters.

[Keith_Martineau]

I dunno. I've always felt that if I got the point of the issue, and something in that issue effected me mentally or emotionally, then it did it's job.
Something like last years AoA mini-series only made me angry with it's shoddy storytelling and bad ideas. I didn't like that. Not one issue.

But in the case of New Avengers 16, even though yes, it went fast (partly because there were also no Ads in that issue--anybody notice that anamoly?) especially due to the way the opening scene was constructed, I came away from that sequence thinking "wow, that was pretty cool." I wasn't thinking it was a cool use of splash pages, or what a neat storytelling trick. I just thought the scene was cool.

But I did not analyze it from a panels per page per comic ratio and deem it a "good or bad use of comics space." Thats way too damn analytical for a medium that I simply purchase to enjoy. I understand the craft of making a comic, but I do not seek to be a critic of how the craft is applied to the issues I read. I mean I can still appreciate the genius that is Watchmen, but if Bendis pulls an issue like this, and I enjoy it, thats where it starts and stops with me.
This is of course all just my opinion. And this is all 100% subjective since there ARE no rules for how to create a comic and tell a story in it.

But I DO think that many of us around here sometimes put ourselves into critic mode, instead of "ready to enjoy entertainment" mode. We all do it from time to time, but I think some people around here do it much more than they should.

[Keith_Martineau]

Like I told stone, it was just and example, you could use any tv series that is supposed to be weekly instead.

However, perhaps Bendis is secretly writing Lost, it would explain why I lost interest in it, when they brought in more charaters.

They brought in Jeph Loeb actually. Small world.
Anywho...

[BlackKnight]

I dunno. I've always felt that if I got the point of the issue, and something in that issue effected me mentally or emotionally, then it did it's job.
Something like last years AoA mini-series only made me angry with it's shoddy storytelling and bad ideas. I didn't like that. Not one issue.

But in the case of New Avengers 16, even though yes, it went fast (partly because there were also no Ads in that issue--anybody notice that anamoly?) especially due to the way the opening scene was constructed, I came away from that sequence thinking "wow, that was pretty cool." I wasn't thinking it was a cool use of splash pages, or what a neat storytelling trick. I just thought the scene was cool.

But I did not analyze it from a panels per page per comic ratio and deem it a "good or bad use of comics space." Thats way too damn analytical for a medium that I simply purchase to enjoy. I understand the craft of making a comic, but I do not seek to be a critic of how the craft is applied to the issues I read. I mean I can still appreciate the genius that is Watchmen, but if Bendis pulls an issue like this, and I enjoy it, thats where it starts and stops with me.
This is of course all just my opinion. And this is all 100% subjective since there ARE no rules for how to create a comic and tell a story in it.

But I DO think that many of us around here sometimes put ourselves into critic mode, instead of "ready to enjoy entertainment" mode. We all do it from time to time, but I think some people around here do it much more than they should.

You may be right about the critic mode, but I guess I am just the type of reader who feels that being able to read a comic in under two mins is a problem. When I finish reading the comic, I realized that the Avengers really never appeared, that Alpha flight was killed or beaten off panel and that I fliped through the first nine pages, so fast they might as well been blank.

I agree this is all 100% subjective, what you like, I might not and the next might.

[BlackKnight]

They brought in Jeph Loeb actually. Small world.
Anywho...

Ok that is actually amusing. :D

[Harold of the Rocks]

Now as for the TV series thing, I was asking if someone would like having 1/3 of an episode being without dialoge, not 1 out of 3 episodes, because a comic is like one episode of a tv series, not four, three or two, just one.

And yes episodes without dialogue can be good if done right in my opinion. From the TV series stand point the episode of Buffy where the villians steal everyones voices so that they can go around and kill them was great, and made sense.
From a comic stand point the issue of Thor that involved his fight with the midgard serpent was all splash page and the only text was the mythological poem that went with the story, and that was great. It was an epic fight that deserved epic scale and the story was told well that way.Okay, I overstated the entire episode of TV being without dialogue rather than 1/3. And you did say that it can be done right, ith a good example here. So why ask someone if they would like that format without seeing the episode? That's the only part I don't get. If it can be done right, than one has to absorb the content first, right? That's why I was confused... you seem to be arguing that the format is a bad idea (i.e. wrong) on one hand (after all, in your scenario, we had no content to look at, that is why I refer to it as 'sight unseen'), then saying that there is no 'wrong way' on the other hand. Well without content, there is only format. I now understand that you think there is no wrong way. It still doesn't explain to me why you made that argument in the first place if you don't think there is a wrong way.

Yeah, you didn't have to rehash why NA#16 didn't work for you... I already got that. Personally, how long it takes me to read a book has little to do with my entertainment or a sense of the 'value' the book has. A book can take me 15 minutes to read and I walk away feeling ripped off. Or, it can take just a few, and I can't wait for the next in the series. So, because I did enjoy NA#16, I can't say I came away with the same sense you did. I'm glad you are at least getting them cheap, that is good. Still, I thought you 'threatened' to drop the book some time ago on these forums, that was why I was asking. Maybe you weren't getting the same deal back then.

I might have to look into that Thor book you're talkin' about... any more info on that?

I'm not sayin' anyone here has criticized Bendis on both accounts, but there is some irony about him being characterized as decompressed, and all talking heads, then we get #16 and it's first nine pages. And I understand that the same people may not like either. I just thought it was a very interesting contrast to what is 'typical' for Bendis.

By the way, BK... are you checking out Civil War or any tie-ins... especially The Illuminati (because it is Bendis...)? Just wonderin' based on your 'disdain' for how Bendis treats the New Avengers, and the fact that they more than any other team will be affected the most (well, except maybe Alpha Flight & The New Warriors, ha ha)...and that event being written by Millar? What is your take? And (it will remain to be seen how it is done, of course), are you 'excited' about the prospect of the New Avengers being 'Disassembled'? Give us your 5 cents worth, please.

[Haunt]

i can't standz Bendis!! oh, we're supposed to be constructive. hmmm....Millar does 'cinematic' better than Bendis. hey, i tried.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Incidentally, how many 'last chances' are you gonna give New Avengers? I thought you were gonna drop this after Sentry, after Ronin, after Spider-Woman... maybe I'm remembering wrong.

LOL!

I remember that too.
Every arc it was the same: "I will give Bendis till the next arc, if he doesn't deliver, I am dropping it"
Then the next arc rolled along and according to BK himself, Bendis did not delivered, but BK never dropped the book, clearly. :D

BK is probably Bendis' biggest fan, I think they are in cahoots to keep the writer's name always "in rotation" here at CBR, the more "bashing" the merrier cuz that keeps the guy relevant and "hot"

Good job, BK! :)

[HarperDJ]

LOL!

I remember that too.
Every arc it was the same: "I will give Bendis till the next arc, if he doesn't deliver, I am dropping it"
Then the next arc rolled along and according to BK himself, Bendis did not delivered, but BK never dropped the book, clearly. :D

BK is probably Bendis' biggest fan, I think they are in cahoots to keep the writer's name always "in rotation" here at CBR, the more "bashing" the merrier cuz that keeps the guy relevant and "hot"

Good job, BK! :)

Hahahahahahahahahahaha, too much!

[Mariah]

i can't standz Bendis!! oh, we're supposed to be constructive. hmmm....Millar does 'cinematic' better than Bendis. hey, i tried.
Funny, yet sadly so true

[BlackKnight]

LOL!

I remember that too.
Every arc it was the same: "I will give Bendis till the next arc, if he doesn't deliver, I am dropping it"
Then the next arc rolled along and according to BK himself, Bendis did not delivered, but BK never dropped the book, clearly. :D

BK is probably Bendis' biggest fan, I think they are in cahoots to keep the writer's name always "in rotation" here at CBR, the more "bashing" the merrier cuz that keeps the guy relevant and "hot"

Good job, BK! :)

More snide comments child, I thought you had said you weren't going to do that anymore. Well, thanks for showing your true colors.
Back to ignore.

[BlackKnight]

Okay, I overstated the entire episode of TV being without dialogue rather than 1/3. And you did say that it can be done right, ith a good example here. So why ask someone if they would like that format without seeing the episode? That's the only part I don't get. If it can be done right, than one has to absorb the content first, right? That's why I was confused... you seem to be arguing that the format is a bad idea (i.e. wrong) on one hand (after all, in your scenario, we had no content to look at, that is why I refer to it as 'sight unseen'), then saying that there is no 'wrong way' on the other hand. Well without content, there is only format. I now understand that you think there is no wrong way. It still doesn't explain to me why you made that argument in the first place if you don't think there is a wrong way.

Yeah, you didn't have to rehash why NA#16 didn't work for you... I already got that. Personally, how long it takes me to read a book has little to do with my entertainment or a sense of the 'value' the book has. A book can take me 15 minutes to read and I walk away feeling ripped off. Or, it can take just a few, and I can't wait for the next in the series. So, because I did enjoy NA#16, I can't say I came away with the same sense you did. I'm glad you are at least getting them cheap, that is good. Still, I thought you 'threatened' to drop the book some time ago on these forums, that was why I was asking. Maybe you weren't getting the same deal back then.

I might have to look into that Thor book you're talkin' about... any more info on that?

I'm not sayin' anyone here has criticized Bendis on both accounts, but there is some irony about him being characterized as decompressed, and all talking heads, then we get #16 and it's first nine pages. And I understand that the same people may not like either. I just thought it was a very interesting contrast to what is 'typical' for Bendis.

By the way, BK... are you checking out Civil War or any tie-ins... especially The Illuminati (because it is Bendis...)? Just wonderin' based on your 'disdain' for how Bendis treats the New Avengers, and the fact that they more than any other team will be affected the most (well, except maybe Alpha Flight & The New Warriors, ha ha)...and that event being written by Millar? What is your take? And (it will remain to be seen how it is done, of course), are you 'excited' about the prospect of the New Avengers being 'Disassembled'? Give us your 5 cents worth, please.

Yes I am excited about the prospect of NA being disassembled. I am hoping that the rumoured more classic avengers comic will actually come to be.

As for Civil War, I actually like Millar's writing, so I have some hope for Civil War.

Again, I don't hate bendis's writing like some people on this board like to claim, I just don't feel he can write an action based, super-hero team comic well. I think he is great with crime nior and loved Alias.

[Harold of the Rocks]

Hey BK,

You know that you did not deny Childe's accusation. I think you did threaten to drop on a few occasions. Maybe not the response you would have preferred, but if you did say those things (I don't know for certain, I just thought you did at one point), you should go easy on Childe... you're partially to blame yourself if that is the scenario. But given you don't think Bendis can write action-based, superhero team comics, it is puzzling that you keep holding out hope for New Avengers as long as Bendis is on the book... I mean, that is what you're looking for, yet you have no faith in the writer to provide it?!? Enough of that... I'm glad you're buying it anyway.

You kinda got after somebody recently for only offering up "it was awesome" as input on a book... and I agree that really doesn't add anything, just like similar negative comments, so I think is was fine that you encouraged more out of them... but now I have to do the same. You like Millar, cool. He's up there as one of the really good writers at Marvel right now as well. I guess I was hoping for a 'meatier' opinion from you other than "I'm hopeful". Concept good? What do want to see come out of this? What are you afraid they could do that you don't want to see? Got anything else for us?

[BlackKnight]

Hey BK,

You know that you did not deny Childe's accusation. I think you did threaten to drop on a few occasions. Maybe not the response you would have preferred, but if you did say those things (I don't know for certain, I just thought you did at one point), you should go easy on Childe... you're partially to blame yourself if that is the scenario. But given you don't think Bendis can write action-based, superhero team comics, it is puzzling that you keep holding out hope for New Avengers as long as Bendis is on the book... I mean, that is what you're looking for, yet you have no faith in the writer to provide it?!? Enough of that... I'm glad you're buying it anyway.



I have been through this arguement with child over and over, whenever I post something he doesn't like, this is his responce. I explained to him why I am still getting the comic more times then I can count, and he promiced that he would stop after the last time, because all he is doing is flaming. In fact, he spent three pages, posting the same thing over and over one time. So that is why he got the responce he did from me.


You kinda got after somebody recently for only offering up "it was awesome" as input on a book... and I agree that really doesn't add anything, just like similar negative comments, so I think is was fine that you encouraged more out of them... but now I have to do the same. You like Millar, cool. He's up there as one of the really good writers at Marvel right now as well. I guess I was hoping for a 'meatier' opinion from you other than "I'm hopeful". Concept good? What do want to see come out of this? What are you afraid they could do that you don't want to see? Got anything else for us?

I most certainly can give you more. The concept is interesting, my worry is that it will feel like an expanded version of the Mutant Reg. Act, but that is only a small worry.
There are many things I am hoping for from this. First is some good old fashioned action, second is that each issue pushes the plot along. Those are my broad hopes for the Event.
My more specific hopes are the return of Thor and Hawkeye, I would be a very happy camper if that happened. I hope to see a second classic Avengers comic, and a well done reinvention of Alpha Flight coming out of this. I hope to see some indepth charaterization, that actually has the charaters acting like they have for the last 5 years.

Is that meating enough, or would you like more? :D

[Eric_Carnaby]

Why do people keep buying a book they hate?

17 issues and some people still spend money on the book they invariably bash month in and month out.
And that whole "I am getting it cheaper so It's ok" excuse doesn't cut it:for the money you are wasting on a book you hate, you could be buying another book that might be closer to the kind of stuff you like.

I don't care about New Avengers, and I stopped buying it after the first arc.
Period.
It was a bad book in my opinion, so I dropped it.

But when people come here and repeat how much they hate it, on every thread and every other post,(even derailing threads) but then you realize that they still buy the book the claim to despise, well that makes me think that these people are masochists.

And that "I'm a completist, I even bought Austen's run" excuse is silly too.
People just like to b**** and moan about their comics.
That's all.

Sorry, BlackKnight, nothing against you personally, but if you dislike the book so much, do like I did, stop supporting it.

17 issues so far...it's quite obvious that Mr.Bendis WILL NOT change his style of writing to please you or me.

And then you talk as if you were some sort of literary critic. Bendis is a bad writer as far as I'm concerned, but I can admit he is a pro, and a trained writer.
I just don't like what he writes, for the most part.
We are just fanboys complaining about books not being tailored to our needs, that's all.

[BlackKnight]

Why do people keep buying a book they hate?

17 issues and some people still spend money on the book they invariably bash month in and month out.
And that whole "I am getting it cheaper so It's ok" excuse doesn't cut it:for the money you are wasting on a book you hate, you could be buying another book that might be closer to the kind of stuff you like.

I don't care about New Avengers, and I stopped buying it after the first arc.
Period.
It was a bad book in my opinion, so I dropped it.

But when people come here and repeat how much they hate it, on every thread and every other post,(even derailing threads) but then you realize that they still buy the book the claim to despise, well that makes me think that these people are masochists.

And that "I'm a completist, I even bought Austen's run" excuse is silly too.
People just like to b**** and moan about their comics.
That's all.

Sorry, BlackKnight, nothing against you personally, but if you dislike the book so much, do like I did, stop supporting it.

17 issues so far...it's quite obvious that Mr.Bendis WILL NOT change his style of writing to please you or me.

And then you talk as if you were some sort of literary critic. Bendis is a bad writer as far as I'm concerned, but I can admit he is a pro, and a trained writer.
I just don't like what he writes, for the most part.
We are just fanboys complaining about books not being tailored to our needs, that's all.

I could also ask why do people keep making this pointless posts, that are designed to nothing but flame...

hmmm... Nothing against you, but why bother asking?

[Eric_Carnaby]

I could also ask why do people keep making this pointless posts, that are designed to nothing but flame...

hmmm... Nothing against you, but why bother asking?

But you don't address the issue.
Just go in circles.

My post was probably pointless, but so are your repetitive critiques, every other post, even on threads that are not even Bendis-related.
Example: Thread title: "Dan Slott, the greatest writer" .

Your post: "Yeah, he is great, at least he isnt like Bendis" or something to do that effect.
No, that's not a real thread or a real post from you, but it's similar to the way you turn innocuous threads into "I Hate Bendis" tirades...

No, I'm not saying that should stop criticizing Bendis, but:
Why don't you start more threads about books you love?
Why not post more about writers you love?
I bet that if I check your posting history, the name Bendis/New Avengers comes up more than anyone else
And why continue buying a particular book you despise?

[BlackKnight]

But you don't address the issue.
Just go in circles.

My post was probably pointless, but so are your repetitive critiques, every other post, even on threads that are not even Bendis-related.
Example: Thread title: "Dan Slott, the greatest writer" .

Your post: "Yeah, he is great, at least he isnt like Bendis" or something to do that effect.
No, that's not a real thread or a real post from you, but it's similar to the way you turn innocuous threads into "I Hate Bendis" tirades...

No, I'm not saying that should stop criticizing Bendis, but:
Why don't you start more threads about books you love?
Why not post more about writers you love?
I bet that if I check your posting history, the name Bendis/New Avengers comes up more than anyone else
And why continue buying a particular book you despise?


I have addressed this issue, more times then I can count, just because I didn't address it with you, does not mean it has not happened over and over.

No please try to not cause fights. Thanks.

[Eric_Carnaby]

I have addressed this issue, more times then I can count, just because I didn't address it with you, does not mean it has not happened over and over.

No please try to not cause fights. Thanks.

That's ironic, coming from a poster I have been informed is famous for being antagonistic and confrontational and forturning entire threads into "I Hate Bendis-I Love Bendis" battlefields, even if the threads aren't about Bendis.

But if it works for you...

[BlackKnight]

That's ironic, coming from a poster I have been informed is famous for being antagonistic and confrontational and forturning entire threads into "I Hate Bendis-I Love Bendis" battlefields, even if the threads aren't about Bendis.

But if it works for you...

WHatever you want to think.... How about you look back and realize that you are the one who started flaming me, not me you.
Bye

[lonesomefool]

I understand you want to enjoy the book, and are getting it cheaper, but I have to say, dont you think your $1.90 that it costs you to buy New Avengers be put towards a book you might actually enjoy? Reading bad comics is kinda like going back to an ex that mistreats you, you may hope for the best and WANT it to work out...but it never seems to actually do just that.

[BlackKnight]

I understand you want to enjoy the book, and are getting it cheaper, but I have to say, dont you think your $1.90 that it costs you to buy New Avengers be put towards a book you might actually enjoy? Reading bad comics is kinda like going back to an ex that mistreats you, you may hope for the best and WANT it to work out...but it never seems to actually do just that.

I already get all the books I enjoy. I am done discussing this. It is a pointless conversation, and I will simple put people on ignore that want to talk about it.

I have explained why I still get it, if you don't like that, well i am sorry I really don't care.

[Eric_Carnaby]

I understand you want to enjoy the book, and are getting it cheaper, but I have to say, dont you think your $1.90 that it costs you to buy New Avengers be put towards a book you might actually enjoy? Reading bad comics is kinda like going back to an ex that mistreats you, you may hope for the best and WANT it to work out...but it never seems to actually do just that.

Exactly.
Masochism at its best.
(and ironically, all those who hate the book but buy it nonetheless, are contributing to its sales success, which ensures that Bendis continues writing it longer.)


But then again, dropping the book might deprive some people of the "pleasure" of b****ing about it online, always a favorite pastime of the average comic book fanboy/girl

I already get all the books I enjoy. I am done discussing this. It is a pointless conversation, and I will simple put people on ignore that want to talk about it.

.

Yes, it's as pointless as repeating "I Hate Bendis, I Hate The New Avengers, I Hate Decompression" 25 times a day, on 10 different threads, especially if you buy the book after 17 issues of decompressed New Avengers written by Bendis.

[BlackKnight]

Exactly.
Masochism at its best.
(and ironically, all those who hate the book but buy it nonetheless, are contributing to its sales success, which ensures that Bendis continues writing it longer.)


But then again, dropping the book might deprive some people of the "pleasure" of b****ing about it online, always a favorite pastime of the average comic book fanboy/girl

Ignore for you... It is amazing how people just want to start fights. Thanks for proving you are one of them.

[Eric_Carnaby]

Ignore for you... It is amazing how people just want to start fights. Thanks for proving you are one of them.
You are the one starting fights, everytime you post your negative, repetitive Bendis/ NA stuff on threads that have nothing to do with New Avengers or Bendis.


You left out this part of the post:

I already get all the books I enjoy. I am done discussing this. It is a pointless conversation, and I will simple put people on ignore that want to talk about it.

.

Yes, it's as pointless as repeating "I Hate Bendis, I Hate The New Avengers, I Hate Decompression" 25 times a day, on 10 different threads, especially if you buy the book after 17 issues of decompressed New Avengers written by Bendis.

[lonesomefool]

They have an ignore option here?

[Kirk G]

They have an ignore option here?

And here I thought people just weren't listening to my posts.... :D

[BlackKnight]

They have an ignore option here?

Yep, go to your private messages, look down on the right, you will see a buddy and ignore list.

It is very usful, when people deside that there opinion is better then yours, and start attacking you for it.

[Eric_Carnaby]

Yep, go to your private messages, look down on the right, you will see a buddy and ignore list.

It is very usful, when people deside that there opinion is better then yours, and start attacking you for it.

Which is exactly what you love doing, especially when it comes to Bendis and New Avengers.

[BlackKnight]

Which is exactly what you love doing, especially when it comes to Bendis and New Avengers.

If I am so horrible, like you like to pretend, why is that I get along with so many people, and that only people like you who keep attacking me are the ones I have problems with.

Just wondering?

[Kirk G]

This is all logical and organic to me. I read the stuff and I get it.

I don't fall back on buzzwords from the 90's to criticize work just because I'm angry about some other storyline a writer did.

There's a huge fundemental difference between the splash page fad of the 90's, and the "splash pages" in NA16. In the 90's, the splash pages were essentially pinups with the characters doing lame posses and posturing. It was used in place of proper storytelling, taking the time to properly introduce a character. Instead Superguy would blast someone off panel, his foot would appear in the next panel, and the next page would be a huge splash page of him doing a ridiculous pose saying "I AM SUPERGUY!." Then he'd attack, and there'd be another splash page of him fighting/posing instead of a fight sequence.

The pages in NA16 are sequential storytelling, that clearly demonstrates the creation of this Michael/Collective thing. If you'd taken each panel and shrunk it to fit two panels on a page, it wouldn't have had the same effect.

There is no such thing as a rule of how many words or panels are required to be in a comic. Implying that there is, limits what you can actually do with a single issue of a comic book.

The criticism of the 90s Image books may have been that they were all "splash pages", but I think the criticism was that they were all "Pin-up pages" of a character striking a pose. I recall the term "Splash-Page" being used in the mid-to-late 1960s NOT in a derogatory sense, but a technical term for the first, full-sized page in each issue. Occassionally, someone would delay that, for effect, for a page or maybe three, to accomplish a prologue, and the double page splash had a bigger impact.

I don't think that's the criticism here. I think SOME people are looking at the sheer number of splash pages vs. actual story involving the main characters of the book, and found it wanting.
While I don't know the administrative side of Marvel or how editorial decisions about producing another book or prologue issue or printing schedules are made... if I were King, I would have set asside this issue and run it as a one-shot prelude, and titled it "The Road to Ruin" Prelude to _______ (whatever this story arc is going to be called) and then let the actual story start in New Avengers #16 instead of #17.

But again, I am second guessing without knowing the whole story, the significance of the details showing in the panels of that first framing device, or how this is going to pay off... so this is all Monday morning quarterbacking!

[Haunt]

Exactly.
Masochism at its best.
(and ironically, all those who hate the book but buy it nonetheless, are contributing to its sales success, which ensures that Bendis continues writing it longer.)


i hate the book and don't buy it. i also use voodoo dolls.

[Flying Fruitbat]

Why do people keep buying a book they hate?

17 issues and some people still spend money on the book they invariably bash month in and month out.
And that whole "I am getting it cheaper so It's ok" excuse doesn't cut it:for the money you are wasting on a book you hate, you could be buying another book that might be closer to the kind of stuff you like.

I don't care about New Avengers, and I stopped buying it after the first arc.
Period.
It was a bad book in my opinion, so I dropped it.

But when people come here and repeat how much they hate it, on every thread and every other post,(even derailing threads) but then you realize that they still buy the book the claim to despise, well that makes me think that these people are masochists.

And that "I'm a completist, I even bought Austen's run" excuse is silly too.
People just like to b**** and moan about their comics.
That's all.

Sorry, BlackKnight, nothing against you personally, but if you dislike the book so much, do like I did, stop supporting it.

17 issues so far...it's quite obvious that Mr.Bendis WILL NOT change his style of writing to please you or me.

And then you talk as if you were some sort of literary critic. Bendis is a bad writer as far as I'm concerned, but I can admit he is a pro, and a trained writer.
I just don't like what he writes, for the most part.
We are just fanboys complaining about books not being tailored to our needs, that's all.

I hear you. My favorite comics used to be Spider-man, Fantastic Four and Daredevil. I didn't like some of their stories and I dropped them. It didnt' occur to me to spend time on their boards complaining that I hate them. I visited sites that I did like and put up with upset fans, who didn't like Avengers.

I think when you call comic book collecting your hobby, you should like what you buy. I can't see a stamp collector going over how one stamp is crap on and on and on when he has so many others to truly treasure.

[HarperDJ]

Years ago I stopped reading FF. Once the team of creators were changed, I started reading the title again. It was that easy. Ohh, I made my decision after 2 issues, not 20 or so.

I got a solution to all of this - BK, send me your address, so I can send you a refund for the money your parents give you for NA, that is...as long as you cut them up and send them to me as proof you didn't keep them. I hate to see you spend your money on something that you don't like. :D

[Haunt]

Years ago I stopped reading FF. Once the team of creators were changed, I started reading the title again. It was that easy. Ohh, I made my decision after 2 issues, not 20 or so.

I got a solution to all of this - BK, send me your address, so I can send you a refund for the money your parents give you for NA, that is...as long as you cut them up and send them to me as proof you didn't keep them. I hate to see you spend your money on something that you don't like. :D


can i get the refund as well? i want to cut something.

[HarperDJ]

Nope, just BK. Don't get mad and cut me! :D

[Flying Fruitbat]

Years ago I stopped reading FF. Once the team of creators were changed, I started reading the title again. It was that easy. Ohh, I made my decision after 2 issues, not 20 or so.

I got a solution to all of this - BK, send me your address, so I can send you a refund for the money your parents give you for NA, that is...as long as you cut them up and send them to me as proof you didn't keep them. I hate to see you spend your money on something that you don't like. :D


That is a good one DJ.

I knew Bendis had a money back policy for fans like the Black Knight that didn't like Disassembled. I doubt the Knight bothered with all that. It calls for work and not just changing his statements around to look good.

From what I last read, no one took Bendis up on his offer. Fan boys being cowardly? No way. I am sure their money back requests got lost in the mail or maybe the Knight's mother didn't get around to drive him to the post office.

[Babylon23]

Why do people keep buying a book they hate?

17 issues and some people still spend money on the book they invariably bash month in and month out.
And that whole "I am getting it cheaper so It's ok" excuse doesn't cut it:for the money you are wasting on a book you hate, you could be buying another book that might be closer to the kind of stuff you like.

I don't care about New Avengers, and I stopped buying it after the first arc.
Period.
It was a bad book in my opinion, so I dropped it.

But when people come here and repeat how much they hate it, on every thread and every other post,(even derailing threads) but then you realize that they still buy the book the claim to despise, well that makes me think that these people are masochists.

And that "I'm a completist, I even bought Austen's run" excuse is silly too.
People just like to b**** and moan about their comics.
That's all.

Sorry, BlackKnight, nothing against you personally, but if you dislike the book so much, do like I did, stop supporting it.

17 issues so far...it's quite obvious that Mr.Bendis WILL NOT change his style of writing to please you or me.

And then you talk as if you were some sort of literary critic. Bendis is a bad writer as far as I'm concerned, but I can admit he is a pro, and a trained writer.
I just don't like what he writes, for the most part.
We are just fanboys complaining about books not being tailored to our needs, that's all.

This isn't an attack on Black Knight, since I agree with most of his points in relation to the Black Knight and New Avengers, but I have to agree with Eric Carnaby here. I love the classic Avengers, and can't stand new Avengers, so I stopped buying it around issue 6. I just don't have the completist mentality, and refuse to buy titles I don't like reading, especially when there are plenty of other good books out there for me to read. Marvel doesn't care what fans on messageboards say, they care how many issues a title sells. If people don't like NA, the best way to convince Marvel to bring back a classis team is to stop buying the issues.

Eventually, a classic team will return, the damage done to my favourite characters (Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Vision) will be undone, and I'll be back reading the Avengers. Until then, I'll just sit things out.

As for Bendis, it's really a matter of your personal tastes. Regardless of whether he believes he's a decompression writer or not, if a reader feels his stories are too long and drawn out, then his style is too decompressed for their tastes. Personally, I think his stories are decompressed, and nothing he says will convince me otherwise, because my preference is for shorter, tighter storytelling. His style of decompression works for me on some titles (DD, Alias, Powers), but not on others (House of M, Avengers, Secret Wars).

[BlackKnight]

Years ago I stopped reading FF. Once the team of creators were changed, I started reading the title again. It was that easy. Ohh, I made my decision after 2 issues, not 20 or so.

I got a solution to all of this - BK, send me your address, so I can send you a refund for the money your parents give you for NA, that is...as long as you cut them up and send them to me as proof you didn't keep them. I hate to see you spend your money on something that you don't like. :D



Back to ignore.

[HarperDJ]

Just offering to give you their money back. Sorry :(

[BlackKnight]

Just offering to give you their money back. Sorry :(

No Harper, you will pulling your typical insult. Making up a story about how I am a child.

Stop chassing me around!

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

This isn't an attack on Black Knight, since I agree with most of his points in relation to the Black Knight and New Avengers, but I have to agree with Eric Carnaby here. I love the classic Avengers, and can't stand new Avengers, so I stopped buying it around issue 6. I just don't have the completist mentality, and refuse to buy titles I don't like reading, especially when there are plenty of other good books out there for me to read. Marvel doesn't care what fans on messageboards say, they care how many issues a title sells. If people don't like NA, the best way to convince Marvel to bring back a classis team is to stop buying the issues.



Exactamundo.
It don't matter how much I get my fruit of the looms in a bunch over how much I hate a book, as long as I keep buying, I am a hypocrite if I constantly diss it.
Now, if it were two or three issues,(or even 6) especially the start of a run or a new book, I could understand someone being disatisfied and still buying the book, hoping for things to get better, but 16 issues?
16 or 17 issues is more than enough for me to realize that the book's writing will not
change, no matter how much I want it to change.



I knew Bendis had a money back policy for fans like the Black Knight that didn't like Disassembled. I doubt the Knight bothered with all that.

From what I last read, no one took Bendis up on his offer.

I distinctly remember that money-back offer.
If all the fanboys that complained about the book since day one, had taken up the offer, I bet Marvel would be considering changing the creative team by now.

[BlackKnight]

Exactamundo.
It don't matter how much I get my fruit of the looms in a bunch over how much I hate a book, as long as I keep buying, I am a hypocrite if I constantly diss it.
Now, if it were two or three issues,(or even 6) especially the start of a run or a new book, I could understand someone being disatisfied and still buying the book, hoping for things to get better, but 16 issues?
16 or 17 issues is more than enough for me to realize that the book's writing will not
change, no matter how much I want it to change.




I distinctly remember that money-back offer.
If all the fanboys that complained about the book since day one, had taken up the offer, I bet Marvel would be considering changing the creative team by now.

I have one question for you and everone else who keeps bring this up. Why do you care, if I keep buying the book, am I hurting you personally or something. If you don't like what I have to say about it put me on ignore, its not hard.

Truly it is beyond my understand why all of you care so much about me buying a comic? I have of course have asked this before and recieved no responce. maybe I will this time.

[HarperDJ]

I have one question for you and everone else who keeps bring this up. Why do you care, if I keep buying the book, am I hurting you personally or something. If you don't like what I have to say about it put me on ignore, its not hard.

Truly it is beyond my understand why all of you care so much about me buying a comic? I have of course have asked this before and recieved no responce. maybe I will this time.First I want to apologize to Black Knight. It seems that I have been picking on him. Sorry fella!

OK, I don't know if I should be the one commenting on this or not. Black Knight...what bothers us (myself included) is that every thread that has anything to do with The New Avengers and Bendis you chime in over and over. I am sure by now that everyone online that frequents the message boards know that you don't like the title. They also know that you don't like the title and continue to buy it. So be it, you don't like it yet you buy it. OK, I can live with that. I have made a personal offer to you: Sned me your address, and cut up copies. I will send you back your money. Plain and simple. If I were an outsider, I would see that as calling your bluff. But I am not. I really don't care that you like the title or not. What I care about is that you derail the threads each and every time you come in with your hatred of New Avengers and Brian Bendis. Everytime there is a topic, it ends up, 'you against anyone that says that they like it, or against anyone for that matter'.

Sure there are others that don't like the title also but, I do not see them on 10-15 boards posting the same thing over and over. If you don't like the title or any particular issue then so be it fella. We know that so, let it rest, please.

Again, I am so sorry for picking on you.

I will stop.

Honest!

[BlackKnight]

First I want to apologize to Black Knight. It seems that I have been picking on him. Sorry fella!

OK, I don't know if I should be the one commenting on this or not. Black Knight...what bothers us (myself included) is that every thread that has anything to do with The New Avengers and Bendis you chime in over and over. I am sure by now that everyone online that frequents the message boards know that you don't like the title. They also know that you don't like the title and continue to buy it. So be it, you don't like it yet you buy it. OK, I can live with that. I have made a personal offer to you: Sned me your address, and cut up copies. I will send you back your money. Plain and simple. If I were an outsider, I would see that as calling your bluff. But I am not. I really don't care that you like the title or not. What I care about is that you derail the threads each and every time you come in with your hatred of New Avengers and Brian Bendis. Everytime there is a topic, it ends up, 'you against anyone that says that they like it, or against anyone for that matter'.

Sure there are others that don't like the title also but, I do not see them on 10-15 boards posting the same thing over and over. If you don't like the title or any particular issue then so be it fella. We know that so, let it rest, please.

Again, I am so sorry for picking on you.

I will stop.

Honest!

I except your apology. I will beleive you will stop, when you have not posted to me like you have before, for a considerable time.

As for the rest of your post, look what derailed the thread, it was not my post my dislike of NA, or bendis (who I have said I don't dislike on numerous occasions), it is in fact, yours and others posts, going off about how I shouldn't buy it if I don't like that derail these threads. That is my opinion, you may disagree, I don't really care.

As for you offer, you know as well as I that it was meant as a snide comment at me. You also know as well as I that I would be a fool to give my address to someone whose sole purpose since he came to his board has been attacking me.

Again, thank you for apologizing, and if you don't like my posts please put me on ignore. :D

[Flying Fruitbat]

I distinctly remember that money-back offer.
If all the fanboys that complained about the book since day one, had taken up the offer, I bet Marvel would be considering changing the creative team by now.

I think the number of fan boys is quite low. I am sure Black Knight in his underoos glory post under different names to confuse the actual number of his supporters. I know he posted as Hawkeye here, there and everywhere.

Most of us here want to discuss the thread subject, have a laugh and join in on the fun. Sadly, there are a few fan boys that want to derail topics and feel they can get away with it. When we call them on their abuse, they play dumb. I think ignoring them won't do the trick. What will? You must remove the troll from the bridge if you want to cross the river in peace. No other way. In the meantime, we can say "Nice underoos, Troll. Though you hated Wonder Woman because she has no charater (sic)".

[Agentum]

A fight!!!

Who has the most people on the ignore list?

BK seems to see what people on his list writes anyway so he can't participate.


Well to be serious people can bitch about a comic or a writer as much they want IF they can state WHY they don't like it, having opinions is no problem for me.

But "I hate Bendis, he can't write" is not good enough.

My problem with Bendis is that he has too much diffrent books to write, i don't think that is good in the long run, give some others a chanse.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

A fight!!!

Who has the most people on the ignore list?


Probably BK. :D (Hey, BK, u know we love you...)

[BlackKnight]

A fight!!!

Who has the most people on the ignore list?

BK seems to see what people on his list writes anyway so he can't participate.


Well to be serious people can bitch about a comic or a writer s much they want IF they can writy WHY they don't like it, having opinions is no problem for me.

But " I hate Bendis, he can't write" is not good enough.

Hey no fair excluding me I have over 12, although of them, only about three still post here.

I agree with you though posting "I hate bendis, he can't write" is not good enough, that is why I explain my opinion. Of course writing "I love Bendis, his writing is awesome" is not good enough either, and you see vastly more of those types of posts then you do the first one.

:D

[BlackKnight]

Probably BK. :D (Hey, BK, u know we love you...)

YOu post to me so much you must. :rolleyes:

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

YOu post to me so much you must. :rolleyes:


Hmmm....not that way, you silly. :)


But using that same logic you accuse me of, then you must ADORE/WORSHIP/WANNA MARRY Bendis, after all 95 % of your posts are about him. ;)

[Agentum]

Of course writing "I love Bendis, his writing is awesome" is not good enough either, and you see vastly more of those types of posts then you do the first one.

:D
I agree, if i ask about opinions i dont want "I love Bendis, his writing is awesome".
But people will get a lot more mad when someone bash their favorite with a short sentece like "Bendis cant write and hes book is pure s h i t".

I have personaly only read a couple of issues of this series and i don't think they was up to the standard Bendis can do, sometimes it feels like he writes on auto mode and only give his most in some books.

I have not read that #16 issue but i remeber Superman 75 with all the splashpages, i felt that that was just a way to trying to be artistic and diffrent, i want a story and art, both parts is important, whitout one of them comics is not intresting to me.
In the 90s many books was mostly nice art with posing heroes, i hope that never comes back again.

[BlackKnight]

I agree, if i ask about opinions i dont want "I love Bendis, his writing is awesome".
But people will get a lot more mad when someone bash their favorite with a short sentece like "Bendis cant write and hes book is pure s h i t".

I have personaly only read a couple of issues of this series and i don't think they was up to the standard Bendis can do, sometimes it feels like he writes on auto mode and only give his most in some books.

I have not read that #16 issue but i remeber Superman 75 with all the splashpages, i felt that that was just a way to trying to be artistic and diffrent, i want a story and art, both parts is important, whitout one of them comics is not intresting to me.
In the 90s many books was mostly nice art with posing heroes, i hope that never comes back again.

I understand where you are coming from regarding the splash pages, although it can be done well, (Thor issue under Simonson is my example).

Yea I agree, either version of the one liner is just as annoying.

[BlackKnight]

Hmmm....not that way, you silly. :)


But using that same logic you accuse me of, then you must ADORE/WORSHIP/WANNA MARRY Bendis, after all 95 % of your posts are about him. ;)

Actually they are about his writing not about him. I have never made a comment about bendis the man except in one thread that was discussing his attitude in interviews towards the fans, and even then I just sad he had a bad attitude.

So you see the difference here is you are talking about me personally and I am taking about writing.. See the difference. :D

[Mobbo]

my theory on Bendis' writing is that he writes the way he does intentionally to piss you guys off. why not? its still critcally acclaimed work, he gets paid, what does he have to lose? plus, he feeds on your hate, because Bendis loves pain.

[BlackKnight]

my theory on Bendis' writing is that he writes the way he does intentionally to piss you guys off. why not? its still critcally acclaimed work, he gets paid, what does he have to lose? plus, he feeds on your hate, because Bendis loves pain.

Wow that would be a horrible way to live your life.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Actually they are about his writing not about him. I have never made a comment about bendis the man except in one thread that was discussing his attitude in interviews towards the fans, and even then I just sad he had a bad attitude.

So you see the difference here is you are talking about me personally and I am taking about writing.. See the difference. :D

Incorrect.
I never talk about you personally, I talk about your posting behaviors and about your insistence on buying a book you despise.
I never talk about you (I don't even know your freaking name, dude :) )
So technically, it is about your writing too.
But my posts aren't 95 % about that, like yours are about Bendis.
In fact, there are 29 posts on one Civil War thread (the most posts from any poster), all from you, and all about how "Bendis sucks")

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

my theory on Bendis' writing is that he writes the way he does intentionally to piss you guys off. why not? its still critcally acclaimed work, he gets paid, what does he have to lose? plus, he feeds on your hate, because Bendis loves pain.

Nah, he does it to piss Black Knight off.
Heck there's a rumor that BK (the character) will be brought back from limbo, just to be killed....I bet it will be Bendis who does it... ;)

[Mobbo]

i guess you guys didnt hear about how Bendis saved those children from the burning building???

[BlackKnight]

Incorrect.
I never talk about you personally, I talk about your posting behaviors and about your insistence on buying a book you despise.
I never talk about you (I don't even know your freaking name, dude :) )
So technically, it is about your writing too.
But my posts aren't 95 % about that, like yours are about Bendis.
In fact, there are 26 posts on one Civil War thread, all from you, and all about how "Bendis sucks")

I highly doubt that since I never say "Bendis Sucks" that is a misconception, that you have.

I don't like Bendis's writing regarding NA, and have said as such, I have also said that I loved Alias. So, your idea that I say "Bendis Sucks" does not hold water now, nor has it ever.

Secondly, I was joking with you, about the posts, incase you did not see the little smiley face... :D

[BlackKnight]

Nah, he does it to piss Black Knight off.
Heck there's a rumor that BK (the character) will be brought back from limbo, just to be killed....I bet it will be Bendis who does it... ;)

I have to ask again, since you never answer me. Why do you post things like this, if they are not meant to cause arguements?

Really I would love to here your logic behind this?

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

i guess you guys didnt hear about how Bendis saved those children from the burning building???

See?
Not only he is Marvel's # 1 selling creator, bar none, and their # 1 Fanboy Hatred-Target, but he is a hero....
Awwwwww :)

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

I have to ask again, since you never answer me. Why do you post things like this, if they are not meant to cause arguements?

Really I would love to here your logic behind this?

Don't tell me that a silly joke about killing a lame character is gonna create an argument?
You know how many times I have read "Spider-Woman is lame.sucks,deserves to die" posts?

Lighten up... :D

[Mobbo]

i want to know why Ed Brubaker doesnt get this kinda aggravation. he brought back bucky, killed banshee and foggy. i demand a "i hate brubaker" thread!!! (just kidding. i love Brubaker.)

[BlackKnight]

Don't tell me that a silly joke about killing a lame character is gonna create an argument?
You know how many times I have read "Spider-Woman is lame.sucks,deserves to die" posts?

Lighten up... :D

So it was intended as a joke. Ok well, I guess I can accept that.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

i want to know why Ed Brubaker doesnt get this kinda aggravation. he brought back bucky, killed banshee and foggy. i demand a "i hate brubaker" thread!!! (just kidding. i love Brubaker.)

I know why.
Because Brubaker doesn't sell truckloads of comics, and he doesn't have the clout in the undustry that Bendis has.
Say what you want about Bendis, but there's no question that he is currently the creator whose name alone brings in the strongest response, both negative and positive, and most of all, financially speaking.

I mean, look at the threads with BENDIS in the title...
(Heck, even those that don't pertain to him invariably get abuzz with posts once anyone derails the thread to say how bad a Bendis book is...)

Bendis is huge, so jealousy and envy and many other factors have caused a backlash.
It happens to everything that becomes hugely successful...Steven Spielberg, Superman, Titanic...it suddenly becomes trendy to bash it

[BlackKnight]

I know why.
Because Brubaker doesn't sell truckloads of comics, and he doesn't have the clout in the undustry that Bendis has.
Say what you want about Bendis, but there's no question that he is currently the creator whose name alone brings in the strongest response, both negative and positive, and most of all, financially speaking.

I mean, look at the threads with BENDIS in the title...
(Heck, even those that don't pertain to him invariably get abuzz with posts once anyone derails the thread to say how bad a Bendis book is...)

Bendis is huge, so jealousy and envy and many other factors have caused a backlash.
It happens to everything that becomes hugely successful...Steven Spielberg, Superman, Titanic...it suddenly becomes trendy to bash it


Or it could be because Brubaker's comic move forward, have good action and plot in every issue, and explain things well in a timly manner.

Naaa that makes to much sense. :D

[Phrozen]

I know why.
Because Brubaker doesn't sell truckloads of comics, and he doesn't have the clout in the undustry that Bendis has.
Say what you want about Bendis, but there's no question that he is currently the creator whose name alone brings in the strongest response, both negative and positive, and most of all, financially speaking.


Selling a truckloads of comics doesn't mean the comics are good or even decent. Hell, Liefeld used to sell truckloads of comics too.


I mean, look at the threads with BENDIS in the title...
(Heck, even those that don't pertain to him invariably get abuzz with posts once anyone derails the thread to say how bad a Bendis book is...)

Bendis is huge, so jealousy and envy and many other factors have caused a backlash.
It happens to everything that becomes hugely successful...Steven Spielberg, Superman, Titanic...it suddenly becomes trendy to bash it

No, the blacklash is happening because New Avengers is a horribly slow book in which almost nothing happens for months on end. Just because it is popular doesn't mean that the critics are wrong. Speilberg got trashed rightfully so for A.I. Titanic wasn't that great of a movie to begin with, and Superman in the past couple years has been mediocre at best.

[Mobbo]

where is this truckload of comics you speak of?? i would like to hijack it.....

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Or it could be because Brubaker's comic move forward, have good action and plot in every issue, and explain things well in a timly manner.
:D

And yet you prefer to spend your hard-earned money on comics that "don't move forward", "have no action and plot in every issue" and "don't explain things well in a timly (sic) manner", like NA. :D

See?
That's why Bendis is # 1 ;)

[Phrozen]

And yet you prefer to spend your hard-earned money on comics that "don't move forward", "have no action and plot in every issue" and "don't explain things well in a timly (sic) manner", like NA.


Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

LMAO!!! :D True dat!

where is this truckload of comics you speak of?? i would like to hijack it.....

It was derailed, and now the haters are asking for a ransom...

[Phrozen]

LMAO!!! :D True dat!



It was derailed, and now the haters are asking for a ransom...

I am actually very opposed to New Avengers. I have friends who like it and keep me informed on what is happening, not much btw, and other things. So far, all I have seen Bendis do is butcher characters like Cap, IM, & Fury. This is not something to be proud of.

[Mobbo]

i hate Bendis, too, which is why i shaved my head like him. dont ask me why this makes sense, it just does.

[Jake V]

Selling a truckloads of comics doesn't mean the comics are good or even decent. Hell, Liefeld used to sell truckloads of comics too.
What does it mean to sell a lot of comics? Are you making the assumption that the majority of the readers of New Avengers have all been tricked into buying it? Do you think they all have bad taste? Perhaps they enjoy reading it? Maybe their likes and dislikes differ from yours.

What is a "good or even decent" comic? What objective criteria have you used to come to this conclusion?

To what do you attribute the success of books like New Avengers?

[BlackKnight]

What does it mean to sell a lot of comics? Are you making the assumption that the majority of the readers of New Avengers have all been tricked into buying it? Do you think they all have bad taste? Perhaps they enjoy reading it? Maybe their likes and dislikes differ from yours.

What is a "good or even decent" comic? What objective criteria have you used to come to this conclusion?

To what do you attribute the success of books like New Avengers?

I don't know if Jake still has me on ignore, but I wanted to make a point that he sort of ignored, the sales on comics that we see are not the amount going to comic readers, but rather the amount going to comic dealers. So, when NA's sales are around 124K (a good number), we have no idea how many are actually being sold to comic readers, or how many people are buying more then one, etc.. etc... This is why sales are not a good way to show quality.

[BlackKnight]

And yet you prefer to spend your hard-earned money on comics that "don't move forward", "have no action and plot in every issue" and "don't explain things well in a timly (sic) manner", like NA. :D

See?
That's why Bendis is # 1 ;)

*sigh* are we back to that now... Oh well, when in doubt rince, repeat old arguements.

[Phrozen]

What does it mean to sell a lot of comics? Are you making the assumption that the majority of the readers of New Avengers have all been tricked into buying it? Do you think they all have bad taste? Perhaps they enjoy reading it? Maybe their likes and dislikes differ from yours.


Tricked? No. Have bad taste? Probably. Enjoy reading it? The human mind has an amazing capacity for making things enjoyable that normally wouldn't be under certain circumstances.


What is a "good or even decent" comic? What objective criteria have you used to come to this conclusion?

To what do you attribute the success of books like New Avengers?

I attribute the success of New Avengers to the fact that people follow trends and always will. Think of all the fads that have gone on in your lifetime. This is no different.

[Jake V]

Tricked? No. Have bad taste? Probably. Enjoy reading it? The human mind has an amazing capacity for making things enjoyable that normally wouldn't be under certain circumstances.



I attribute the success of New Avengers to the fact that people follow trends and always will. Think of all the fads that have gone on in your lifetime. This is no different.
So... most people are sheep, and you are more enlightened than they are, thus you have better taste than them as well as the ability to judge them?

or is that an oversimplification?

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

I don't know if Jake still has me on ignore, but I wanted to make a point that he sort of ignored, the sales on comics that we see are not the amount going to comic readers, but rather the amount going to comic dealers. So, when NA's sales are around 124K (a good number), we have no idea how many are actually being sold to comic readers, or how many people are buying more then one, etc.. etc... This is why sales are not a good way to show quality.

And why would stores order in excess of 100k issues month after month if say, only 70,000 are actually being sold?
There's no way of "showing quality"...it's all a matter of opinion, no matter how much we (yes, I include myself) say "New Avengers is terrible/fantastic" or "Busiek's Avengers, that was quality/lame!"...
It's all personal taste.

The only thing that sales prove is that certain books are being enjoyed by more people, and guess what?
That's what Marvel cares about.
The bottom line.
If Liefield, a writer that so many people consider "crappy" released a book that sold over 100 k every month, after 16 issues, he would also be top dog at Marvel.
Whether the majority of online fanboys thought he sucks or not...

Tricked? No. Have bad taste? Probably. Enjoy reading it? The human mind has an amazing capacity for making things enjoyable that normally wouldn't be under certain circumstances.


And let me guess, you have good taste, right?
Could you enlighten us sheep as to what is that ellusive concept people call good taste?
What does it entail?
(Besides not liking New Avengers, clearly ;)

[BlackKnight]

And why would stores order in excess of 100k issues month after month if say, only 70,000 are actually being sold?
There's no way of "showing quality"...it's all a matter of opinion, no matter how much we (yes, I include myself) say "New Avengers is terrible/fantastic" or "Busiek's Avengers, that was quality/lame!"...
It's all personal taste.

The only thing that sales prove is that certain books are being enjoyed by more people, and guess what?
That's what Marvel cares about.
The bottom line.
If Liefield, a writer that so many people consider "crappy" released a book that sold over 100 k every month, after 16 issues, he would also be top dog at Marvel.
Whether the majority of online fanboys thought he sucks or not...



And let me guess, you have good taste, right?
Could you enlighten us sheep as to what is that ellusive concept people call good taste?
What does it entail?
(Besides not liking New Avengers, clearly ;)

*sigh* once again you go to the far extreme with something.

My guess is that of the 124K about 100K sell. Now, why they sell, is all opinion and specutaltion, without any bases in fact.

[Mobbo]

Fin Fang Foom Put Bendis In His Pants!!! Arg!

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

My guess is that of the 124K about 100K sell.

How did you reach that conclusion?

Oct 05 New Avengers #12 - 130,110 ( -3.0%)
Nov 05 New Avengers #13 - 126,148 ( -3.0%)
Dec 05 New Avengers #14 - 126,583 ( +0.3%)
Jan 06 New Avengers #15 - 121,758 ( -3.8%)

(Issue # 14 actually went up (Go Spider-Woman!!) from # 13 and it re-charted in January, by picking up 2,283 re-orders. SO I don't see how only 100k are actually sold...)

[The Shadow]

Just because it is popular doesn't mean that the critics are wrong. Speilberg got trashed rightfully so for A.I. Titanic wasn't that great of a movie to begin with, and Superman in the past couple years has been mediocre at best.
And just because the "critics" say something is great doesn't necessarily mean that it's so either.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

And just because the "critics&quo