Prelude to "Classic Country" Survivor

[tangentman]

The Hell with democracy--nobody promised that CBR held to one, so I'm throwing out a chance to help make the list for the next Music Survivor!

Who would you add to the list? I want to cap the list at 20, so let's pick the finest performers for "Classic Country"!

Hank Williams
Patsy Cline
Loretta Lynn
Conway Twitty
Tammy Wynette
George Jones
Dolly Parton
Johnny Cash
Waylon Jennings
Crystal Gayle
Merle Haggard
The Statler Brothers
Tom T. Hall
Charlie Pride
Donna Fargo
Barbara Mandrell
Alabama
Ronnie Milsap
Randy Travis

[BigJayStudd]

Randy Travis
Ronnie Milsap
Alabama

There is three off the top of my head.

[Lubichev]

Don Williams
Willie Nelson
Gatlin Brothers
Buck Owens

[Crimson Avenger]

Roy Clark
The Oak Ridge Boys
Bill Anderson
Kenny Rogers

[Chiasm]

Glen Campbell. The Rhinestone Cowboy must be on the list.

[Lubichev]

Earnest Tubbs
Louvin Brothers

[Adam Crocker]

I suppose it's worth asking, what do we mean by "classic country" here? So far, the list includes everything from Hank Williams's Honky Tonk to Crystal Gayle's polished 70s country pop. (Though I admit that the large number of country pop performers on the list I have never heard of.) The list has Randy Travis, but leaves off George Strait, the eighties country artist who started the neo-traditionalist movement that Travis built his career on. Are we just talking artists we like or the important, influential, innovative performers that did the most to push the music forward? I think defining what equals "classic country" would be useful otherwise we could end up with an unwieldly list.

Anyways my suggestions:

Lefty Frizzell - If we have Hag, Randy Travis, George Jones, and Willie on the list (and unquestionably they deserve it) then it would be worth having one of their influences, Lefty Frizell on there. Frizell is among the finest and most influential honky-tonk singers outside of Hank Williams.

Bob Wills - We need someone to represent Wester Swing, and while he didn't start it, I can't think of a better representative than Bob Wills. His genre busting combination of country and jazz was one of the finest of its genre and most influential. His band could easily switch from straight up steel-guitar country to big-band jazz, playing both country songs and pop hits of the era. And he not only influenced many of the country singers reccommended so far (like Hag), but was a critical influence on the development of rock'n'roll.

Jimmie Rodgers - Basically the man whose career started the country music industry, creating a wider market for what was then known as "Hill Billy Music" and a direct influence on many classic fifties and sixties country performers, such as Merle Haggard, Hank Williams, Hank Snow, Ernest Tubb, and Lefty Frizell. Interestingly enough his singing style was basically blues singing with a falsetto, and his yodelling (which had nothing to do with Swiss yodelling) was an attempt to vocalize blues licks. Howlin' Wolf actually tried to imitate Rodgers' yodell and came up with famous Wolf's howl instead.

Gram Parsons - Founder of what is now known as "Country rock" though some would say it's more country married to a R&B pulse. Parsons loved soul music as much as country and his work not only stripped country back down from the polished, string-laden pop coming out of Nashville, it influenced the Byrds, the Rolling Stones, and a number of performers in the 70s including the Eagles (namely their earlier, better work, and no Alabama without the Eagles) and Emmylou Harris. Moreover, it led to the entire alt. country and Americana movements, among which we can include the all important Uncle Tupelo and Lucinda Williams.

Moreover I second the recommendations of Buck Owens (the other great Bakersfield performer next to Hag, though perhaps we should put Wyn Stewart, the originator of Bakersfield, on instead), the Louvin Brothers (whose close knit harmonies influenced Parsons and the Flying Burrito Brothers, Everly Brothers, Emmylou Harris, the Nitty Gritty Dirty Band and those Gatlin Brothers Lubichev put forward), and Ernest Tubb (another of the great, supremely influential Honky Tonk singers.

[Adam Crocker]

And just to throw another into the pot:

Merle Travis

Perhaps the single most influential guitarist to work in country music. His fast-figured, jazz inflected, yet twangy style was a formative influence on Joe Maphis, Chet Atkins, Doc Watson, Jerry Reed, Les Paul, Link Wray, and Elvis' first guitarist Scotty Moore. His finger picking style of playing syncophated rhythms on the high strings with his fingers, and playing a steady, bouncing bass line using a thumb pick has become known as the "Travis style." And he wrote "Sixteen Tons."

[Lubichev]

Anybody who wrote "So Round So Firm So Fully Packed" should be considered.
Doc Watson named his own son after him.

And speaking of Doc Watson.........well, maybe he's more folk, I guess.

[Core]

Kris Kristofferson was kickin' ass before kickin' ass was cool.

[leonaozaki]

What, no Carter Family?

They should definitely be first on the list; without them and Jimmie Rodgers there's no country music. Seriously.

So if we're capping it at 20, my votes would be:

1) The Carter Family
2) Jimmie Rodgers
3) Roy Acuff
4) Bob Wills
5) Bill Monroe
6) Lefty Frizzell
7) Ernest Tubb
8) Hank Williams
9) Merle Haggard
10) Buck Owens
11) Johnny Cash
12) Patsy Cline
13) Loretta Lynn
14) George Jones
15) Willie Nelson
16) Waylon Jennings
17) Kris Kristofferson
18) Tammy Wynette
19) Bobby Bare
20) Marty Robbins

And there's still not enough room for Flatt & Scruggs, but I guess you can waffle and say Earl Scruggs got his start as one of Bill Monroe's Bluegrass Boys.

rob

[Adam Crocker]

Doc Watson named his own son after him.

Yeah he did. That's how much he liked Travis' playing.

And speaking of Doc Watson.........well, maybe he's more folk, I guess.

He seems to straddle the two grounds to me, but I'm willing not to put him forward just because I think this list is gonna packed as it is.

Hmmm...a Kristofferson? Great country singer and songwriter too. But with no slight to him I'd sooner choose Townes Van Zandt, perhaps the best representative of the seventies progressive country movement. His songs rank among the most haunting and emotionally effective I've heard in country. It helps to that he has really distinct singing voice.

(Anyone curious 'progressive country' refers to a group of country songwriters who played bare-bones country while bringing more singer-songwriter inclinations to the genre. It features guys like Van Zandt and Joe Ely, as well Outlaw Country stars like Nelson and Kristofferson, none of which are traditionally "good" singers, but all of whom had the ability to write distinctive songs. Like country rock it's biggest impact is felt in Americana and alt. country.)

[Adam Crocker]

What, no Carter Family?

They should definitely be first on the list; without them and Jimmie Rodgers there's no country music. Seriously.

You're right. And I might have to moot many of choices for your list, which is a damn good fucking list. Granted there's a lot missing, but you still got most of the most influential performers on there (didn't know Bobby Bare, but reading up on him it looks like he's a better choice than Van Zandt in his pioneering of adding the innovations of songwriters like Dylan to country). Hell I'd endorse this list.

[K'Nort]

Hoyt Axton?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Tanya Tucker belongs on that list a lot more than do Randy Travis, Alabama or Crystal Gayle. She is insignificant compared to folk like Hank Sr. and Loretta Lynn, but she had the sexy country singer act down way before any of the current crop were even born.

[Dennis K]

Okay, does anybody think Johnny Cash won't win?

[leonaozaki]

Okay, does anybody think Johnny Cash won't win?

He'll probably win, because he's the "coolest" country singer on the list. I plan to do nothing but vote for Hank Williams, myself.

rob

[Trucker Belt]

Ya'll forgot about Roger Miller. Shame, Shame on you.

Anyways, you need a top 20 as a vote?

P.S. don't forgot about Johnny Paycheck, David Allen Coe, and Billy Joe Shaver as well.

[Dennis K]

He'll probably win, because he's the "coolest" country singer on the list.


That would be Waylon Jennings actually, but Cash will certainly be the fashionable pick.

[Pinball]

Hey, what about Roy Rogers and Gene Autry?

or Chet Atkins?

[Chiasm]

How is "classic country" being defined? Cuz, I don't think artists that hit their prime in the 80's such as Alabama and Randy Travis are really classic country. Thats kind of like calling Metallica and U2 classic rock since they also hit their prime at the same Alabama and Travis did.

Or maybe is just that I don't like music I grew up with (technically I didn't listen to country but you get the point) being called classic. Makes me feel old. Reminds me of that songg that has the line "when did Motley Crue become classic rock?"

[tangentman]

The list is open-ended; however, let's be reasonable and understand that we're also not necessarily trying to cobble together the most obscure list just to show off our Cool Music Trivia skills. Otherwise, we could keep Donna Fargo on the list because she was one of the first female country singers to write her own songs. Personally, I say we should take the BEST, most influential artists who had a lasting influence and a substantial body of work. We also need to reach an agreement on our definition of "Classic Country". I'm with those who want to establish the years which could work for our definition. So, which years would be a good cut-off?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Given how long country has been around, and how much it changed when it got commercialized in the 80s, I'd argue the cut-off be 1975. If you hadn't done a country album by then, you shouldn't be considered a classic country artist.

[Core]

Okay, does anybody think Johnny Cash won't win?


I don't know...the way the last few music survivor matches have gone, it seems to be anybody's guess as to who will be left in the end.

Oftentimes, really good, or "cool," acts get voted out quickly precisely because they're popular.

[Core]

Given how long country has been around, and how much it changed when it got commercialized in the 80s, I'd argue the cut-off be 1975. If you hadn't done a country album by then, you shouldn't be considered a classic country artist.


That cut-off sounds about right to me as well.

[tangentman]

When is the generally agree-upon time for the birth of "New Country"? Even the country-pop that we saw so much of in the 80's?

[Adam Crocker]

Personally, I say we should take the BEST, most influential artists who had a lasting influence and a substantial body of work.

In which case Rob's (leonaozaki) list is probably the best start. Everyone of those artists had a substantial body of work and a lasting influence.

(Yes I can go into detail on each one if need be.)

[Lubichev]

In which case Rob's (leonaozaki) list is probably the best start.
I agree.
_______ Let's get started!!

[Dennis K]

In which case Rob's (leonaozaki) list is probably the best start. Everyone of those artists had a substantial body of work and a lasting influence.

(Yes I can go into detail on each one if need be.)


Please don't.

[Slam_Bradley]

1) The Carter Family
2) Jimmie Rodgers
3) Roy Acuff
4) Bob Wills
5) Bill Monroe
6) Lefty Frizzell
7) Ernest Tubb
8) Hank Williams
9) Merle Haggard
10) Buck Owens
11) Johnny Cash
12) Patsy Cline
13) Loretta Lynn
14) George Jones
15) Willie Nelson
16) Waylon Jennings
17) Kris Kristofferson
18) Tammy Wynette
19) Bobby Bare
20) Marty Robbins



If you're capping at 20 that's a pretty darn good list.

I might put Ray Price in place of Bobby Bare or Kristofferson.

And it's a tad short on Countrypolitan of the sort of Jim Reeves or Eddy Arnold.

I haven't seen anyone mention Hank Snow yet.

[Adam Crocker]

Please don't.

That shall be my NEW threat. "Well I could go into detail..." Thanks Dennis!

[tangentman]

Let's add 5 more stars to the list--it won't be as unwieldy as previous lists. Maybe we can cover the "Urban Country" craze that way? Also, what are others' thoughts on the suggestion to agree on 1975 as the cut-off for "Classic Country"?

[Adam Crocker]

Let's add 5 more stars to the list--it won't be as unwieldy as previous lists. Maybe we can cover the "Urban Country" craze that way? Also, what are others' thoughts on the suggestion to agree on 1975 as the cut-off for "Classic Country"?

I'm fine with the 1975 cut-off date, but what is this urban country thing you refer to?

[tangentman]

With 1975 as the cut-off, it probably wouldn't matter. Here's a stab, though, from Roughstock's History of Country Music site:

"The most infamous era in country music was in the early '80s. The Urban Cowboy movement led country music away from its roots. Country's move toward pop culture was popularized by John Travolta's "Urban Cowboy," and spurred on by Dolly Parton's movie 9 to 5 and the title song, which you can find here.

In the early '80s, country attempted to cross-over to the easy-listening pop audience. The result was a lot of shallow and tacky music that was neither good country, nor good pop. In many cases, Urban Cowboy country was nothing but regurgitated '60s and '70s pop music. The outlaw heroes of the 1970s -- Willie, Waylon, Johnny, and Merle -- faded into obscurity on the country scene. Aside from Parton, the biggest hits of the time were crossover tunes, including the Oak Ridge Boys "Elvira" and others."

[Trucker Belt]

but I would consider Hank Jr and Alabama classic country as they were real big in the late 70's and early 80's.

[Dennis K]

That shall be my NEW threat. "Well I could go into detail..." Thanks Dennis!


I only say that because I'm still waiting on the Rory Gallagher and Michael Bloomfield essays you were going to write.

[Chiasm]

I still say that Glen Campbell needs to be on the list. He was big in the 60's and 70's. And Rhinestone Cowboy and Galveston are two of the alltime classic country songs.

[leonaozaki]

Let's add 5 more stars to the list--it won't be as unwieldy as previous lists.

If we're bumping it to 25 I definitely think Dolly Parton should be on the list. I also second the vote for Ray Price.

rob

[Jonathan Bogart]

I've never paid attention to these Survivor threads before, but I've gotta say: this has me jonesing for some classic country. Thanks, guys.

(Oh, and Kitty Wells and the Stanley Brothers deserve consideration.)

[K'Nort]

And Rhinestone Cowboy and Galveston are two of the alltime classic country songs.

Yeah, but speaking of lousy '80s country movies.

[Calamas]

"The most infamous era in country music was in the early '80s. The Urban Cowboy movement led country music away from its roots. Country's move toward pop culture was popularized by John Travolta's "Urban Cowboy," and spurred on by Dolly Parton's movie 9 to 5 and the title song, which you can find here."Two comments:

1) I’d say Kenny Rodgers had as much to do with moving country away from its roots as the Urban Cowboy movement.

2) And while I’ll never defend that craze as a whole, I submit that Mickey Gilley made some very good music. It just wasn’t Country Music. He was a transplanted 50’s Rock-and-Roller.

[Calamas]

Oh, on the whole it’s a pretty good list. And whoever remembered Marty Robbins has me in their corner. I’d hate to think I’m the only one left.

I’d consider adding Carl Perkins, but, as he was as much Rock as Country, and as much songwriter behind the scenes as singer on the stage, I could understand objections. Just a suggestion for filling out the field.

EDIT:

Less iconic, but also for consideration: Little Jimmy Dickens, Tom T Hall, Roger Miller, Conway Twitty, and Chet Atkins.

[tangentman]

What about this revised list?


1) The Carter Family
2) Jimmie Rodgers
3) Roy Acuff
4) Bob Wills
5) Bill Monroe
6) Lefty Frizzell
7) Ernest Tubb
8) Hank Williams
9) Merle Haggard
10) Buck Owens
11) Johnny Cash
12) Patsy Cline
13) Loretta Lynn
14) George Jones
15) Willie Nelson
16) Waylon Jennings
17) Kris Kristofferson
18) Tammy Wynette
19) Bobby Bare
20) Marty Robbins
21) Dolly Parton
22) Glen Campbell
23) Tom T. Hall
24) Conway Twitty
25) Kitty Wells

[Dennis K]

What about this revised list?


1) The Carter Family
2) Jimmie Rodgers
3) Roy Acuff
4) Bob Wills
5) Bill Monroe
6) Lefty Frizzell
7) Ernest Tubb
8) Hank Williams
9) Merle Haggard
10) Buck Owens
11) Johnny Cash
12) Patsy Cline
13) Loretta Lynn
14) George Jones
15) Willie Nelson
16) Waylon Jennings
17) Kris Kristofferson
18) Tammy Wynette
19) Bobby Bare
20) Marty Robbins
21) Dolly Parton
22) Glen Campbell
23) Tom T. Hall
24) Conway Twitty
25) Kitty Wells


That's not a bad list, a few weak nominees, but overall it's alright.

[JeffreyWKramer]

What about this revised list?



It'll work. It's not perfect, but this is a CBR survivor game, not a textbook on country music history.

[TomGun13]

That's not a bad list, a few weak nominees, but overall it's alright.

What about Porter Wagoner? Charlie Pride?