X-MEN #184 Spoilers within!

[FightingSpirit]

Ok I must say I wasnt to thrilled with this issue at all. To start the cover really had nothing to do with what happend in the book at all. This arc is really starting to bum me out. Nothing happend that we didnt know from the last issue. Except for the fact that Apacalypse seems to be doughting himself and his stone servant went to the x-men to help them gain access to the prymid. They get ready to attack but some of the 198 mutants are defending apacalypse and then Gambits revealed. I like Gambits new look but I know most dont. I'll leave it to someone else to explain in great detail what transpired but this is basically it. This arc is seriously taking a nose dive and I dont have great hope in it getting better down the road. I give it a 2 out of 5.

[Traser]

This entire arc is realy lame. The stories are short, the character I wanted to see get some highlight (Shiro) gets punked quite quickly. The comment about Gambit needing to figure out how do do some bodily functions was retarded. Carey (if thats the next writers name) definitely has his work cut out for him. I feel lik eno effort whatsoever has been put into this book in a long time.

[Tag06]

To start the cover really had nothing to do with what happend in the book at all.

Most covers today don't.

[FightingSpirit]

Most covers today don't.

You know I have noticed that. It really bums me out to see such a great cover and then have nothing remotely like that in the book.

[Speed]

Have they still not revealed that 4th Horseman?
Does anyone care anymore?

Marvel have hyped this arc so much thats it falling flat on its face.

[punisher_ryu]

THEY BUTCHERED ICEMAN!!!!........his character, i mean.

[FightingSpirit]

Have they still not revealed that 4th Horseman?
Does anyone care anymore?

Marvel have hyped this arc so much thats it falling flat on its face.


No the 4th horseman is still a mystery. Overall this arc is very dissapointing. They better spice this entire series up soon cause im ready to stop reading it.

[Fede]

sadly, i have to agree with all that u've said...
the only thing i like is the art, wich is clearly better than before.

this arc is just too slow, apocalypse is boring and i just dont care of who the horsemen are anymore. it looks like all this arc has been build to keep us buying it in order to know who the horsemen are.

[Tag06]

You know I have noticed that. It really bums me out to see such a great cover and then have nothing remotely like that in the book.

I agree maybe Marvel will change one day. :(

[Beast]

At least Gambit's reasoning for siding with Apocalypse isn't as stupid as thought.

And woooo, Apocalypse refrenced the X-Men: The End Sinister/Cyclops Clone origins of Gambit!! :D

[streator]

can someone summarize the issue that has it?

[Flameworthy]

How dissapointing that Sunfire did little to nothing in this issue. I wish I could have seen him torch Rogue's ass, or something. Pretty lame issue, but at least Shiro is somewhat back to normal.

[FightingSpirit]

sadly, i have to agree with all that u've said...
the only thing i like is the art, wich is clearly better than before.

this arc is just too slow, apocalypse is boring and i just dont care of who the horsemen are anymore. it looks like all this arc has been build to keep us buying it in order to know who the horsemen are.

You know I would agree with you but the horseman havent even caught my interest. Gambit has a different look, but sunfire/famine got owned in secs and war/gazer hasnt done anything since finishing off the sentinals. Also I have such a bad feeling when it comes to who the 4th horseman is. Then add on the fact that apacalyspe doesnt even know if he wants to kill people anymore. Honestly the only good thing that will come of this arc is hopefully the death of apacalypse cause I cant stand seeing such a cool character turned into a sniveling, shadow of his former glory. The old apacalypse would of killed that stone dude for even the slightest hint at insabordination. God the more I think about it the more I worry that they will turn apacalypse into a new ally for the x-men. (Shivers at the thought).

[lament]

My Thoughts:

Sunfire: He is the only character for whom I feel any real sympathy. I had hoped to see him get a bit more play in this issue, but I'm glad to see that he's not stuck in flame form. I'm really wondering what's going to become of him at the end of this story. I hope it leads to him being in a regular title of some sort. But I have a feeling he might either remain an unwilling Horseman or become canon fodder (which would tick me off).

EDIT: I've chosen to rationalize that Shiro got owned so fast because he wanted to get taken down.

Apocalypse: Who is this and what has he done with Apocalypse? This weird...banter/witty remark stuff just doesn't work. I'm glad Ozymandias at least pointed out the change in his behavior.

Gambit: You know, Gambit as a Horseman could have work if Milligan had actually spent some time exploring Remy's psyche in the months leading up to this. But to have him just show up and offer to become a Horseman because he...loves the X-Men, and he thinks Poccy might be a good guy now?!? What? And what this whole, "If you're not a good guy, I'll be here to take you down" crap? Does he think he's bad-a$$ enough to do that? And did it ever occur to him that Apocalypse might just brainwash him? :rolleyes:

Bling: Er... She's still a teenager, right? Why the heck did the X-Men let her come along into the Sphinx? What purpose did she serve?

The art was nice, though. :D

[Mitsaso]

Bling: Er... She's still a teenager, right? Why the heck did the X-Men let her come along into the Sphinx? What purpose did she serve?

Because if they have sent Colossus, Psylocke, Emma and Kitty instead, the fans would nag that characters from other books take more panels than the regulars...like, you know, Bling. :p

[lament]

Because if they have sent Colossus, Psylocke, Emma and Kitty instead, the fans would nag that characters from other books take more panels than the regulars...like, you know, Bling. :p

I'm guessing they want to play up the fact that Bling was Gambit's student. That's the only reason I can come up with. Still, it seems odd that she would come along with no real explanation.

[the Hornet]

At least Gambit's reasoning for siding with Apocalypse isn't as stupid as thought.

And woooo, Apocalypse refrenced the X-Men: The End Sinister/Cyclops Clone origins of Gambit!! :D

I have not readd that miniseries ? Can anyone spoil the origin of Gambit ? Is he a clone ? Thanks.

[Madrox84]

This issue sounds god awful... Ah well i guess i'll find out tomorrow...

I'm so happy that Carey will be taking over soon, he has a hell of a lot of work to do to drag this title out of the gutter. But i think he is up to it...

[Beast]

I have not readd that miniseries ? Can anyone spoil the origin of Gambit ? Is he a clone ? Thanks.
Somewhat. Gambit was the genetic clone of Nathanial Essex pre-alteration by Apocalypse, and was also imbued with an altered version of Cyclop's mutant genome. Sinister created the baby as an evntual host body for him, and as the ultimate weapon against Apocalypse. When Pocy heard about it he sent his contacts in the thieves guild to steal the child before it reached maturity. They trashed Sinister's lab and one of the guild decided to raise Remy. That's also why Gambit without the section of his brain cut out that toned his powers down was incredibly powerful. Just look at New Sun and Gambit powered-up temporarily by Sinister.

[f4faith]

Somewhat. Gambit was the genetic clone of Nathanial Essex pre-alteration by Apocalypse, and was also imbued with an altered version of Cyclop's mutant genome. Sinister created the baby as the ultimate weapon against Apocalypse, but when Pocy heard about it he sent his contacts in the thieves guild to deal with the infant. They trashed Sinister's lab and one of the guild decided to raise Remy.

The End Gambit has way more mutant genome in him that just Cyclops. Cyclops is the just the only one Sinister specifically mentioned (because we all know what a fetish Sinister has for Cyke). And it was a little more vague how Poccy got the Thieves Guild involved. I woud tend to think given history that Poccy had Candra deal with it and she sent the Thieves in.

[Owens 23]

My Thoughts:

Bling: Er... She's still a teenager, right? Why the heck did the X-Men let her come along into the Sphinx? What purpose did she serve?


Somebody has to die in this story, and Bling is a perfect character to die with nobody giving a darn.

[Volk1]

Well, everyone and their mama knows Milligan's run in this book has not been spectacular, but for what it is, I thought it was alright. Sure, I didn't like Sunfire getting blasted so soon ( I would have loved for him to have taken down Rogue), but all in all, I didn't think it was that bad.

Bling doesn't bother me being there, but I wonder why Milligan didn't want to use Onyxx either. Is Bling so far ahead of Onyxx in talent and skill?

I actually liked Pulse admitting he was a "coward". Cuz now we know Rogue is not going to go after him after all this....

Gazer/War being loyal to Poccy instead of Ozy doesn't suprise me. He was intelligent before and if he still contains that intelligence, he knows whose side he needs to be on.

Liked Colossus' breif appearance and dialogue (as well as Psylocke's - even if it just was an ass shot!) :eek:

Havoc finally shows some leadership qualities again. I likkd when he said "I'll take my squad." Because I forgot he even had one.

And in that back story with Gambit, how the heck did Remy ever say this word "indefatigability." ?? Is that bad characterization from Milligan or am I wrong and Gambit really does know big words. Either that or he's been hanging with Beast lately.

Gambit said indefatigability. Heh.

[Valmore]

"My reason for joining you, 'Pocalypse, is 'cause I want te join de Death Club Fo X-Men along with Logan and Warren."

[Hi-Fi]

I like Pulse. :o

[Volk1]

I like Pulse. :o

I liked his intro and his powers but so far he's been nothing but Mystique's b**ch! I actually wouldn't mind if he stuck around Carey's upcoming run but I don't think that's going to happen...

[Hi-Fi]

I liked his intro and his powers but so far he's been nothing but Mystique's b**ch! I actually wouldn't mind if he stuck around Carey's upcoming run but I don't think that's going to happen...

Yeah, I'm sure it wont happen. In fact, I think Carey himself said that.

[FieryBalrog]

Gambit's non-reasons for joining PockyLips were terrible.

"I feeeeeeeeeel the goodness in you, Apocalypse. I'm doing this outta luv. 'Spite the fact you've been a villain for 5,000 years and have tried to conquer da world and kill us all, I am goin' to join you because I feeeeeeeel you are good now. Don't think I'm being naive or anythin'."

[the Hornet]

Somewhat. Gambit was the genetic clone of Nathanial Essex pre-alteration by Apocalypse, and was also imbued with an altered version of Cyclop's mutant genome. Sinister created the baby as an evntual host body for him, and as the ultimate weapon against Apocalypse. When Pocy heard about it he sent his contacts in the thieves guild to steal the child before it reached maturity. They trashed Sinister's lab and one of the guild decided to raise Remy. That's also why Gambit without the section of his brain cut out that toned his powers down was incredibly powerful. Just look at New Sun and Gambit powered-up temporarily by Sinister.

ugh! Too complicated...like the M family tree. I sure hope that this miniseries is not officially canon. Thanks Beast.

[jawbreaker]

And woooo, Apocalypse refrenced the X-Men: The End Sinister/Cyclops Clone origins of Gambit!!
are you sure he was refering to that or to the Apocalypse vs Dracula info about Apoc having a descendants/bloodline? Mind you I skimmed the issue at the shop so i might have missed if he actually mentioned anything about Sinister. Cuz I assumed the Sinister clone stuff was considered Alternate Universe...

[R Krippler]

Was Apoc. one of the 198. Maybe he is depowered but the technorganics are the only thing keeping him going. I mean he is hinting that something is wrong with him. Also I like the reason that Gambit joined Apocalypse, I think it plays into his current characterzation.

[FieryBalrog]

Was Apoc. one of the 198. Maybe he is depowered but the technorganics are the only thing keeping him going. I mean he is hinting that something is wrong with him. Also I like the reason that Gambit joined Apocalypse, I think it plays into his current characterzation.

being utterly naive? :confused:

[mattbib]

Ugh...I can't believe they're totally ruining Skids.

[tjarvis]

Still fairly mediocre, but I at least gained some enjoyment out of this issue. I kind of like Gambit's new look, I wonder how his powers have been upgraded.

[Will.S]

Gambit's non-reasons for joining PockyLips were terrible.

"I feeeeeeeeeel the goodness in you, Apocalypse. I'm doing this outta luv. 'Spite the fact you've been a villain for 5,000 years and have tried to conquer da world and kill us all, I am goin' to join you because I feeeeeeeel you are good now. Don't think I'm being naive or anythin'."
There's more to it than that though. Like Wolverine when he was Death, Gambit believes that he'll be able to will his personality back. It won't be easy though since it takes a good deal of psychics and ass kickings to try to knock some sense back into him and turn him into who he once was. Gambit also seems to be noticing that that Apocalypse's motivations aren't as megalomaniacal and are more towards the cause of mutant survival. Perhaps that is part of Cyclops's personality still inside of him similar to how Cyclops became more hardened with piece of Apocalypse still inside him after being separated from him.

I loved the issue by the way. While I would have wished to have seen Sunfire get more action, I liked that the X-Men shot first and asked questions later because in a frantic situation like this you have to act quick and they are, in fact, being written as effective. I'm interested in seeing the new Sentinels in action (although they are in the solicitation cover) and how much help they could be, they sound to be pretty souped up.

The parts with Apocalypse and Ozymandias were fantastic, here you have this sand dude pushing his buttons and being a traitor behind his back and then Apocalypse just clobbers his face through the wall. The look on Ozy's face is priceless, that was such a badass moment. And whoah Gazer looked scary! I was surprised to see that he still went with Apocalypse's loyalty even after Ozymandias saved his life, but then again he could have said something different as well.

I didn't get all crazy about the behavior of some of the 198 because I'm not ga-ga over every obscure x-character so that Milligan to get all in depth with all of them, I'd rather he just go on with the story thanks. Besides some of them drank the blood and sided with him so there you go. As for Gambit, the back story made sense and it was well written in that the transformation is made to be a very painful and horrific proccess and his motivation is still noble as well as making an interesting observation of Apocalypse that is seen with his scene with pestilence earlier, can't wait to see Gambit as Death in action.

Sal's art still looked terrific although one could barely tell that it wasn't by Liquid!. It looked very clear, well textured and Sal draws the best Apocalypse I've seen by far. Love all the dark Horsemen designs as well, they go well with a warlord motif.

All in all, very enjoyable (8/10) and I think people are going too down on the story when there is alot of interesting stuff going on. While I already see alot of negative bias of Milligan here I actually think it's Milligan's best effort yet.

[TinMan]

UGH!!! This is crap! Nothing but crap! Seriously, lets give a monkey a typewriter and let him play with it for awhile, I bet we'll get a better story than this garbage.

At first I thought this arc might be pretty good, but its steadily gotten worse. I don't understand, Milligan seems to have potential at different points but then he trips on one of the cow pies in the pasture and face plants into a fresh one!

Pulse has been brought in as some kinda retarded plot device, "I might be able to sap his powers". Doesn't Leach do that too? Gambits characterization is just godawful, it makes absolutely no sense at all.

Gambit's non-reasons for joining PockyLips were terrible.

"I feeeeeeeeeel the goodness in you, Apocalypse. I'm doing this outta luv. 'Spite the fact you've been a villain for 5,000 years and have tried to conquer da world and kill us all, I am goin' to join you because I feeeeeeeel you are good now. Don't think I'm being naive or anythin'."

This guy has it right, dumb reasoning and terrible characterization. I could accept Sunfire's situation cause he wanted his powers back, second guessed the decision, but was still a hero in that he went back to save Gazer and got caught. That works. I have no problem w/ that. But this Gambit not understanding that Apocolypse is going to mindrape him as well? Crap. I will admit Milligan did redeem himself *slightly* with Gambits reasoning, cause the whole, "I wanna join you cause the X-Men don't listen to me no mo'' stuff was even worse.

However, I do like Gazer as War, Ozymandias betraying Pocylips cause he's now a Pu@#!, and I can't think of anything else I like. So hopefully the last two parts of this arc will make a bit more sense, but I'm not gonna get my hopes up.

[Sandy Hausler]

I was a little annoyed that Skids, one of the original X-Factor's protoges went over to Apocolypse (though that may change).

Just my opinion.

Sandy Hausler

[Roads]

Gambit believes that his personality will be back by pure will as Death and he sees that Apocalypse's motivations are less for human death but for mutant survival.

I loved the issue by the way. While I would have wished to have seen Sunfire get more action, I liked that the X-Men shoot first and ask questions later because in a frantic situation like this you have to act quick and they are being effective.

The cover gave me the impression that this fire due was gonna raise some hell and lay the smackdown on the X-Men, esp. Colossus.

Apocalypse just clobbers his face through the wall. The look on Ozy's face is priceless, that was such a badass moment. I was surprised to see that he still went with Apocalypse's loyalty even after Ozymandias saved his life, but then again he could have said something different as well.

As for Gambit, the back story made sense and it was well written in that the transformation is made to be a very painful and horrific proccess and his motivation is still noble as well as making an interesting observation of Apocalypse that is seen with his scene with pestilence earlier, can't wait to see Gambit as Death in action.

Sal's art still looked terrific although one could barely tell that it wasn't by Liquid!. It looked very clear, well textured and Sal draws the best Apocalypse I've seen by far. Love all the dark Horsemen designs as well, they go well with a warlord motif.

Some read for the title some for the writer, some for the characters or genre but in my case, in this case I have followed Sal since X-treme X-men. Hell he's the main reason I kept X-Men on my pull list. And good thing because I am totally in to the X-Men / Apocalypse story. I will just have to forget the Wild Kingdom and the Lorna tales. BTW it was nice having Lorna out of the picture.

All in all, very enjoyable (8/10)... While I already see alot of negative bias of Milligan here I actually think it's Milligan's best effort yet.

Well he did give us a dull run for awhile. My guess HOM, Black Panther/Storm, and Lorna soap opera got in his way.

I liked the shot with Havok, Rogue and Ice Man together. This is my team. And without Lorna there to divide Bobby and Alex makes it much more of a team. All they need is 2-3 NEW members.

[Will.S]

Well he did give us a dull run for awhile. My guess HOM, Black Panther/Storm, and Lorna soap opera got in his way.
I liked a few arcs here and there. I didn't exactly LOVE his entire run but I didn't think it was really as bad as people say it is here since it had some pretty good characterizations and interesting characters (like Gambit's squad).

I don't have much problems with the current Blood of Apocalypse either. It's fun, the characters are reacting pretty well in my opinion and I love that the character is making a big comeback right now.

I liked the shot with Havok, Rogue and Ice Man together. This is my team. And without Lorna there to divide Bobby and Alex makes it much more of a team. All they need is 2-3 NEW members.
I'm glad that they're going to be paired up in different teams with Havok and Polaris on Brubaker's Uncanny withouth Iceman in the way and Iceman and Rogue both go in Carey's X-Men which should be interesting. Dunno if they're gonna hook up like the Ultimate version but who knows.

[X-Ray]

This the best issue under Milligan since he took over the X-men. I like when Rogue gets a little spotlight. This the first X-Men I picked up in like a year think. I used to be a big X-book reader but X-books and Marvel hasn't been that good or worth buying for some time for me anyway. DC is on a roll right now.

I liked the Gambit as Death. I'll get #185 for sure.

[Sentinel K]

*Yawn*
101010

[Tall & Small]

I was happy to see that Gambit's heart was in the right place. I was pretty upset until saw what was really going on. I guess this puts a strain on the relationship of Rogue and Gambit. I hope it works out, because that Pulse guy is what he says he is and that is a coward. No. # 1 rule is that you DO NOT let your mom pick your boyfriends. Trust me, bad idea.

[Rogue]

UGH!!! This is crap! Nothing but crap! Seriously, lets give a monkey a typewriter and let him play with it for awhile, I bet we'll get a better story than this garbage.


It was guys like you that kept away from boys who read comics. Then I found out that the boys who read comics are not the problem, it's the silly, hatefull , fanboys like youself that give us the lable of "comic book geek."

.....makes absolutely no sense at all. Now, now little baby, everything's gonna be alright. Let me check your diaper.....awwww, I see what your problem is. :D Crap.




Tell your mom to run the vacume and you will go to sleep and stop crying.

[TinMan]

Tell your mom to run the vacume and you will go to sleep and stop crying.

Wow, join a brand new board and decide to open your ignorant mouth with the first post, what an amazing human being! I wish I could be like you and totally like everything! I wish I didn't have an opinion at all and I was a mindless zombie.

Look, take you feeble little mind and go elsewhere, cause if you knew anything about me you would know that I am one of the LEAST bitchy people on this message board and that I really have to dislike something to tear it up like I did this issue. You're not impressing anyone and the fact that you just automatically start acusing someone of being a "fanboy" when you don't know them at all just shows your own ignorance. Not to mention the fact that you're obviously to stupid to even work all of the board options properly and use terrible grammar.

[Keith_Martineau]

Lets just lay this out on the line here so we can see it for what it is.

Gambit: "So, Apocalypse has been a truly dastardly villain for a good 5000 years now. His credo was survival of the fittest, and he was a powerful mutant even during an era when there were maybe 10 mutants in the world TOPS. Evolution is a slow game. So since the major boom of mutants over the last 50 years, he's become quite active as a villain, and has plagued our lives time and time again. He's done terrible things to Archangel, Wolverine, and Cyclops.

But I think he's changed cause of M-Day! I believe his motivations are altruistic! I believe this cat has changed his stripes."

Okay kids. We could stop it there and try to accept the lofty notion that Gambit is giving Apocalypse the benefit of the doubt. Fine. Here's where it goes astray.

Gambit: "I believe his plan to kill 90% of the human population is a GOOD ALTRUISTIC IDEA! And you know what else? I'm going to join him in this endeavor, because I believe it's best for mutants. Wholesale genocide. I'm also doing this to keep an eye on Apocalypse incase he HASN'T changed his stripes.
And to accomplish this, I'm going to allow myself to be 100% irrevocably, physically changed by this guy. I'm going to visibly betray everything that I am, and that I believe in, and drive a nice big wedge between myself and the woman I love by joining one of our greatest foes because I believe his idea for killing 90% of the human population is an altruistic idea."

I'm sorry---what?

What the hell is this nonsense? How does this even remotely jive with ANY kind of characterization of Gambit EVER? Even at Gambit's worst, he's been portrayed as merely someone out for his own good, his own ends. This does not make sense. This is worse than what was done to Colossus during the 90's.
At least then, the story being told was compelling, and Colossus joining Magneto was something that was built up to and HAD reasons. This just comes out of left field, uses a totally stupid reason to justify him joining, and completely changes the character. And it's ridiculous. Plain and simple. If Milligan were not already leaving after this arc, I would drop X-Men.

God help us if Pestilence is Polaris. I'm sure THAT explanation is going to be a doozy as well.

[fishtaco]

Okay, what happened to Skids?

[Keith_Martineau]

Okay, what happened to Skids?

She appeared in three panels (next to Mauraders) and the X-Men told her to stand aside, and maybe they'd forget about her protecting Apocalypse.

Thats it really.

Surely you don't expect Milligan to give any PROPER treatment to a c-list character when he can't even give decent treatment to his A-listers? ;)

[Steven F.]

HORRIBLE treatment of SKIDS....and what was with her "Isn't he great" and "he is our savior"...the mind control thing is long gone from her, but she seems to be acting WAY out of character. STUPID, STUPID, treatment.

[Sandy Hausler]

She appeared in three panels (next to Mauraders) and the X-Men told her to stand aside, and maybe they'd forget about her protecting Apocalypse.

Thats it really.

Surely you don't expect Milligan to give any PROPER treatment to a c-list character when he can't even give decent treatment to his A-listers? ;)
I guess you're right.

Though in her day, Skids was definitely a B-lister, a major character in an X-book.

Sandy Hausler

[Brian M.]

I guess you're right.

Though in her day, Skids was definitely a B-lister, a major character in an X-book.

Sandy Hausler


Early X-Factor was great.

[lament]

Don't even get me started on Skids. First, they have Karma acting all cool with Apocalypse and now, Skids has joined up with him? And she's standing alongside Scalphunter?! Please.

[f4faith]

Lets just lay this out on the line here so we can see it for what it is.

Gambit: "So, Apocalypse has been a truly dastardly villain for a good 5000 years now. His credo was survival of the fittest, and he was a powerful mutant even during an era when there were maybe 10 mutants in the world TOPS. Evolution is a slow game. So since the major boom of mutants over the last 50 years, he's become quite active as a villain, and has plagued our lives time and time again. He's done terrible things to Archangel, Wolverine, and Cyclops.

But I think he's changed cause of M-Day! I believe his motivations are altruistic! I believe this cat has changed his stripes."

Okay kids. We could stop it there and try to accept the lofty notion that Gambit is giving Apocalypse the benefit of the doubt.

And let's add the real irony to that statement right here. Please note this corresponds EXACTLY to what the X-Men just did with the vote for Mystique prior to M Day. Mystique shows up acting like she owns the place, makes a complete pain of herself and gives no reason more than she wants to join and her past (both in trying to commit genocide on the human race and killing Moira and stabbing Rogue) is totally ignored for the most part and she is voted on the team. Poccy shows up basically the same way but is immediately treated as a threat when he says he is here to help.

Fine. Here's where it goes astray.

Gambit: "I believe his plan to kill 90% of the human population is a GOOD ALTRUISTIC IDEA! And you know what else? I'm going to join him in this endeavor, because I believe it's best for mutants. Wholesale genocide. I'm also doing this to keep an eye on Apocalypse incase he HASN'T changed his stripes.
And to accomplish this, I'm going to allow myself to be 100% irrevocably, physically changed by this guy. I'm going to visibly betray everything that I am, and that I believe in, and drive a nice big wedge between myself and the woman I love by joining one of our greatest foes because I believe his idea for killing 90% of the human population is an altruistic idea."

Actually that's where it goes astray but not the way you are stating it. So far as we know Gambit doesn't have a clue what Apocalypse's plan is. And that's the other problem besides that he should know Poccy brainwashes people all the time. Let's say Gambit is willing to give Poccy the benefit of the doubt (which the X-Men won't because he hurt Scott and Jean and their kiddies as compared to Mystique who's only hurt Moria and Rogue and the soldiers of the team who it seems is fashionable by Milligan's standards for Emma to disreqard and treat like dirt while Scott lets her) So let's get that bit of hypocracy out of the way right now - if they can let Mystique in on her word - Gambit can be willing to watch out on Poccy on his word. My issue is why either would believe either one but if they can do it, he can as well. The only difference is that was know what Poccy wants and Milligan has freshly set up Mystique to be somehow suddenly without serious ulterior motive so the X-Men can feel superior for their stupidity while Gambit will be punished for his. My question is why wouldn't Gambit's first question to Poccy be what is your plan. I'm willing to give that you want to help - so how? The same should have been put to Mystique and at least Gambit is willing to put his butt on the line to watch the guy every minute while the X-Men just let Mystique do as she pleases.

What the hell is this nonsense? How does this even remotely jive with ANY kind of characterization of Gambit EVER? Even at Gambit's worst, he's been portrayed as merely someone out for his own good, his own ends. This does not make sense. This is worse than what was done to Colossus during the 90's.

It is because at least some of what happened with Colossus had build up even if I didn't agree he would react that way. His sister's death esp. Gambit not being listened to - is well par for the course because in my opinion while Scott may be a good field leader in a fight, he's hopeless lost in having an actual plan that is proactive on espionage side. That Gambit's skills have never been well used by the X-Men is their fault. Gambit use to care less. More than that Gambit is not anti-human/pro-mutant all the way. He's got more human friends and family than most of the X-Men combined save Wolverine and that's because Wolverine has lived forever. Sure the letting Rogue go thing is probably eating him up but no so "joining the other side is the only option".

At least then, the story being told was compelling, and Colossus joining Magneto was something that was built up to and HAD reasons. This just comes out of left field, uses a totally stupid reason to justify him joining, and completely changes the character. And it's ridiculous. Plain and simple. If Milligan were not already leaving after this arc, I would drop X-Men.

Exactly though I am likely dropping it anyway. No offense to Carey as he seems like a nice guy but his team I just find absurd and uninteresting.

[mattbib]

Don't even get me started on Skids. First, they have Karma acting all cool with Apocalypse and now, Skids has joined up with him? And she's standing alongside Scalphunter?! Please.Seriously! SKIDS WAS A MORLOCK! Even IF she was persuaded by Apocalpyse no way would she stand beside those murderers.

[lament]

Seriously! SKIDS WAS A MORLOCK! Even IF she was persuaded by Apocalpyse no way would she stand beside those murderers.

For real! Has Milligan even heard of the Mutant Massacre?

[Rogue]

UGH!!! This is crap! Nothing but crap! Seriously, lets give a monkey a typewriter and let him play with it for awhile, I bet we'll get a better story than this garbage.





This was the part I that got me. If you don't like a comic thats great. There's 200 other books that you can read. If you don't like an issue or writer then say so without the super angry words.

Yes, I was being silly. I am sure others thought close to what I said.

[TinMan]

This was the part I that got me. If you don't like a comic thats great. There's 200 other books that you can read. If you don't like an issue or writer then say so without the super angry words.

Yes, I was being silly. I am sure others thought close to what I said.

Oh, I will, believe me. But having to endure the pure and utter crap that this man rolls out constantly is enfuriating. His Havok is a weak, pitiful crybaby; even though he lead X-Factor for how long? Mystique is just voted into the X-Men with no problem? Bobby is constantly crying about Lorna or bitching at Alex. Its terrible characterization that has gone on and on. The only reason I'm still reading this book is because Apocolypse is in it and I want to know what is happening leading up to Carrey's run, otherwise I would drop it cause Milligan has literally butchered characters left and right.

Oh, and being silly? Sarcastic and insulting is more like it.

[Teamballin]

Yo I must say it was kinda refreshing seeing Bling get sum exposer I mean she has been in the X-title for a lil bit now, being apart of Gambit's team and all. It will be koo to see student versus teacher type deal with her go up against Horsemen Gambit. They really did downplay Iceman this issue, I mean the guy didn't even ice up when they confronted Apocalypse. The side story was the best apart of the issue, talk about guts, Gambit really impressed me with that type of action. I hope they revert him back to himself after the battle with apocalypse and I hope he stays with Rogue afterward too. I still think the 4th Horsemen is Polaris and that will make the battle even more interesting with Havok. This issue tho was a bit of a bore, no recall value what so ever.

[Sentinel K]

This was the part I that got me. If you don't like a comic thats great. There's 200 other books that you can read. If you don't like an issue or writer then say so without the super angry words.

Yes, I was being silly. I am sure others thought close to what I said.

You didn't like what he said? Fine.

Just ignore him. There was no need to respond to him like you did.

I happen to agree with TinMan though. Milligan's whole run has just been infuriating. There is very little that he has managed to get right in the way of characterization, and his plots are just.....bad.

I'm very annoyed too. I kept thinking the run was going to pick but it never did. Its been a pointless waste of time and money. I'm angry too (mostly at myself for continuing to buy it).

This is what the forum is for. To express our opinions.

If you don't like people's opinions then you shouldn't really be here.

[Owens 23]

Okay, what happened to Skids?

I wash them out of my underwear when i do the laundry. Clorox color safe bleach works the best.

[Sentinel K]

I wash them out of my underwear when i do the laundry. Clorox color safe bleach works the best.

That problem would be solved if you wiped your ass properly. :D ;)

[TinMan]

You didn't like what he said? Fine.

Just ignore him. There was no need to respond to him like you did.

I happen to agree with TinMan though. Milligan's whole run has just been infuriating. There is very little that he has managed to get right in the way of characterization, and his plots are just.....bad.

I'm very annoyed too. I kept thinking the run was going to pick but it never did. Its been a pointless waste of time and money. I'm angry too (mostly at myself for continuing to buy it).

This is what the forum is for. To express our opinions.

If you don't like people's opinions then you shouldn't really be here.


Werd up you crazy limey bastard! :p

I gave Milligan a long time to show his skills and its never paid off. I didn't read Golgotha cause it was about over when I got back into reading comics, but I've been picking it up since Bizarre Love Triangle. If you even go check my early posts I defended Milligan and said lets see where he goes before you bash the writing. Well, after a year of stories not getting any better, I'm gonna state that I think its crap.

I gave him a YEAR to shape up, now I have no faith in his X-Men work.

[Hi-Fi]

I totally agree about Skids. I was like "What???" the whole time. I wanna see X-Treme X-Men Skids back!!

[Gaveedra 6]

I totally agree about Skids. I was like "What???" the whole time. I wanna see X-Treme X-Men Skids back!!
To be fair, X-Treme X-Men Skids was pretty wimpy. She's a rebellious post-morlock who's lost everything over and over again. I love her to pieces, but having her alliances shift in a time of crisis didn't seem that odd to me. I just didn't like her standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Marrauders. Those guys killed her freaking family. The fact that they're even on the mansion lawn bugs me to no end...

Personally, I enjoyed the conversation and ensuing pummeling between Ozy and Poccy. They're ridiculous characters. At least Milligan is trying to bring a new dimension to Poc. His whole hesitancy to unleash pestilence I find intriguing. What would Apocalypse do if he had an inkling that he was going soft?

[Hi-Fi]

To be fair, X-Treme X-Men Skids was pretty wimpy. She's a rebellious post-morlock who's lost everything over and over again. I love her to pieces, but having her alliances shift in a time of crisis didn't seem that odd to me. I just didn't like her standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Marrauders. Those guys killed her freaking family. The fact that they're even on the mansion lawn bugs me to no end...


Oh, I meant phisycaly, with the pony tail and the trenchcoat. :o

But seriously now, you're kinda right. Skids was always portrayed as a scared kid that would shift alliances everytime! Morlocks, X-Factor. New Mutants, Acollites, X-Corps and now this. But side by side with Marauders?? Urgh.


I still love Pulse and find Mystique's presence in the mansion hilarious. :)

[Gaveedra 6]

Oh, I meant phisycaly, with the pony tail and the trenchcoat. :o

I still love Pulse and find Mystique's presence in the mansion hilarious. :)
Haha. I have a feeling there's a Marvel edict forbidding any character from wearing the X-Corp leather stuff anymore. Too Morrison. :(

I have the distinct feeling Pulse is going to be handed a "you die now" card just after he does something kinda cool. O well.

[Will.S]

Personally, I enjoyed the conversation and ensuing pummeling between Ozy and Poccy. They're ridiculous characters. At least Milligan is trying to bring a new dimension to Poc. His whole hesitancy to unleash pestilence I find intriguing. What would Apocalypse do if he had an inkling that he was going soft?
Yeah that's one of the main reasons why I enjoyed the issue, Apocalypse's characterization is much better and clearly laid out here as well as there being some grey areas not previously seen.

[Roads]

Haha. I have a feeling there's a Marvel edict forbidding any character from wearing the X-Corp leather stuff anymore. Too Morrison. :(



Am I one of a few that liked the X-Corps/New X-Men uniforms? I thought that was those was the best. Gene Grey and Logan looked so good. Angel and Ice Man had their different versions of the uniform, too. And the
XTreme X-Men's blue and red was tight.

That's what got me back into the X-Men after like 10 years. I can't stand to see grown men with their underware on the outside like Cyclops did for so long. Wolverine and Batman are two examples of heros who should not be in underware. That's one thing I praise Cassiday(?) for was keeping the blue underware off Logan. Wolverine's new look is my favorite of all.

I was gonna quit the X-Men again when I heard about the custumes coming back but they turned out to be the best the X-Men ever looked. Beast needs some work, still.




So, am I the only one who liked those custumes?

[Gaveedra 6]

Am I one of a few that liked the X-Corps/New X-Men uniforms? I thought that was those was the best. Gene Grey and Logan looked so good. Angel and Ice Man had their different versions of the uniform, too. And the
XTreme X-Men's blue and red was tight.

That's what got me back into the X-Men after like 10 years. I can't stand to see grown men with their underware on the outside like Cyclops did for so long. Wolverine and Batman are two examples of heros who should not be in underware. That's one thing I praise Cassiday(?) for was keeping the blue underware off Logan. Wolverine's new look is my favorite of all.

I was gonna quit the X-Men again when I heard about the custumes coming back but they turned out to be the best the X-Men ever looked. Beast needs some work, still.

So, am I the only one who liked those custumes?
I loved the New X-Men leather school uniforms. Finally, the X-Men felt like propper sci-fi. Not just fantasty muscle people in bright colors. I AM glad they took the time they did to design the new costumes- Wolverine especially, who looks pretty damn good. But I still think grown-ups wouldn't opt to wear spandex.

[Beast]

So, am I the only one who liked those custumes?
No, there's a diverse group of people who liked the leather S&M gear costumes. Myself, I hated them with every fiber of my being. Especially Beast's awful fullbody suit with that damn ascot. Made me want to smack Quietly upside the head for that design, not to mention Kitty-Beast in general. :p

[Loestal]

I didn't like them. So what if it's not "realistic..or whether or not grown men would wear that stuff. It's the nature of comic books...which I am not reading for realism. For people who really don't like costumes and certain other aspects that are traditional for comics...that's what the Ultimate line is for.

As far as this issue goes...I have been an avid Milligan hater. This issue made me go from hater back to just neutral. He has two issues to make something of this arc...if he doesn't I drop the book

[Neolucifer]

i found the issue entertaining , but still far from the epic tale it should/could have been .

This issue made me go from hater back to just neutral. He has two issues to make something of this arc...if he doesn't I drop the book

Dont you know he is done anyway after that arc ? lets just drain one's cup to the dregs :D :p .

As far costumes goes , well i hated the morrison era ones . Only Bachalo imo made it sometimes work .
The ultimate xmen costume is probably the way they should have followed instead for the redesign ..
But now i'm happy with each universe keeping their tone and respective costume .

[Loestal]

i found the issue entertaining , but still far from the epic tale it should/could have been .


Dont you know he is done anyway after that arc ? lets just drain one's cup to the dregs :D :p .

As far costumes goes , well i hated the morrison era ones . Only Bachalo imo made it sometimes work .
The ultimate xmen costume is probably the way they should have followed instead for the redesign ..
But now i'm happy with each universe keeping their tone and respective costume .

No sir, I didn't know. Good...who is replaceing him anyways?...and I have no idea what that cup of dreg statement is.

[X-Ray]

Dont you know he is done anyway after that arc ?


COOL!!! It's about time Milligan's getting off here. I guess this means the last few issues will be really good ? Peter's trying to leave on a good note. If he put this much effort into the past issues ....never mind.


lets just drain one's cup to the dregs :D :p .

What? That's sounds cool but what did you say, err type???

As far costumes goes , well i hated the morrison era ones . Only Bachalo imo made it sometimes work .I can't speak on Bachalo, fairly. I'm one of the 99% that hates his work. Sorry. But, Ian Churchill and Sal made them look good to me.


But now i'm happy with each universe keeping their tone and respective costume .
Me too. It bothers me when Marvel bunches the Ultimates with Earth 616 like they are all the same. That's misleading . Just me.



Any one no where if there is a character wish list for the new writers and will there be a title/number change?

[rilokyle]

I gotta say, this issue was much better than the previous two in my opinion. I thought the story was finally progressing and there are still a bunch of mysteries, like the blood serum and Pestilence that I'm looking forward to finding out about. I also thought the art was more defined. The colors were brighter and the characters were inked better, so they didn't just wash into the background like previous issues. Yeah, I agree, I am pissed about Skids, but it seems that she's been brainwashed by the blood serum or whatever. At least we got to see Karma still on the X-Men's side. Thank God.

And again, the Gambit thing is still not realistic. I've never known Gambit to be so stupid- oh course he's going to brainwash you, you dumb@$$!! I am glad however that Shiro is being made out to be a sympathetic character.

Overall, a step-up from previous issues.

[Ryan K]

At least Gambit's reasoning for siding with Apocalypse isn't as stupid as thought.

Really. Ithought it just as bad. OK, I'll assume for a minute that Gambit's belief that Apocalypse is doing a good thing this time is believable (I don't think it is, but whatever - I mean his name's APOCALYPSE). So because Gambit kinda believes Apocalypse is a good guy he offers his body for Apocalypse's tinkering in order to . . .I guess . . . become more powerful, and thus more servicable to the X-Men and Apocalypse's new regime.

Gambit has been on the same team with Warren for how long now? Now maybe they haven't always been on the same team or anything and maybe they don't kick back brews after hours. But Gambit has got to know what Apocalypse did to Angel in pretty good detail. He's got to know of how Apocalypse %$#@ed with Angel's mind and everything and how haunted Warren has been. But there's Gambit with a shocked look on his face when Apocalypse says Gambit won't be the same person when he emerges. WTF?

My other complaints about this issue:
1. Bling. WTF?
2. Death Gambit's costume. WTF?
3. Skids. WTF?
4. The art. WTF? It looked like Larocca drew the most basic of sketches and the colorists added everything else.

I will give credit for Milligan addressing the feelings Rogue would have about seeing Sunfire in this situation. And I'll give him props for POSSIBLY introducing a thread that could see Gambit's origin from X-Men: The End introduced into canon. Other than that . ..

[steve2275]

gambit the goth :cool:

[Madrox84]

Truly dire issue... Thanks be to all gods that this crappy story will be over soon...

As for the debate about costumes, i liked the leather costumes... They were cool...

[fishtaco]

ugh. Skids is one of my favorite characters. She really was A-list in her day. Yuck.

[TinMan]

So, am I the only one who liked those custumes?

I hate them. If I hadn't stopped reading comics like a couple months before Morrison's run started, I woulda dropped them for sure after that crap came about.

Realistic? Riiiiight. Mature? Its friggin YELLOW and BLACK leather, thats more what you would see someone wearing when riding a crotch rocket.

Now honestly, if you wanted to go for a more "mature/realistic" look, go with black "canvas". Do our Navy SEALs and Delta Force teams where leather cause its so comfy and blends in well? NO, they where black and cammo'd canvas clothes because they breath and don't restrict movement. Put the X-Men in combat boots with canvas pants and long/short sleeve canvas shirts w/ the canvas belts and you got "mature and realistic".

http://www.bunker.altervista.org/stranieri/seal4.jpg

Put them in something like this ^ but in solid black w/o the belt pouches/head junk and variations of the "suspender" straps. Now that would look cool and realistic.

[Lord S]

*Yawn*
101010 My thoughts exactly.

A very mediocre issue. The writer (Milligan?) is succeeding in the tradition of making Apocalypse look like a lazy, weak, joke.

On the other side of the coin, Ozymandias is written very well. He is the only thing keeping this arc together, IMO.

Who really cares about the Four Horsemen? I've said it before in another thread...I really wish ol' blue lips would lose the baggage around him. Only then will we see him shine. If that's possible.

The art is impressive.

4.5/10

[Keith_Martineau]

I hate them. If I hadn't stopped reading comics like a couple months before Morrison's run started, I woulda dropped them for sure after

Put them in something like this ^ but in solid black w/o the belt pouches/head junk and variations of the "suspender" straps. Now that would look cool and realistic.

You know, that pretty much was part of the thought behind the yellow and black leather. It was comparable to a rescue workers style of uniform.

Yes, obviously they used leather for style and to match up a bit with the movies. So what?

How people can accept men in tights running around, and then get all bent out of shape over switching to something leathery, I'll never understand. Despite being leather, it NEVER looked like bondage gear.

[Sandy Hausler]

ugh. Skids is one of my favorite characters. She really was A-list in her day. Yuck.

I've always liked Skids, but calling her A-list is overstating. She was a fairly major (but secondary to the original X-Men) character in X-Factor. She was, in her day, a strong B-lister.

Sandy Hausler

[TinMan]

You know, that pretty much was part of the thought behind the yellow and black leather. It was comparable to a rescue workers style of uniform.

Yes, obviously they used leather for style and to match up a bit with the movies. So what?

How people can accept men in tights running around, and then get all bent out of shape over switching to something leathery, I'll never understand. Despite being leather, it NEVER looked like bondage gear.

How is it comparable to a rescue workers uniform? I've never seen a fireman, emt, or police officer in leather pants. I think if you're going to do something, do it right, don't halfass it. The concept of becoming more "realistic" and using leather is half assing it, leather is restrictive and holds heat. Like I said the only "realistic" use of wearing full leather is to prevent road rash if you fall off a bike, otherwise its not very realistic. I consider the leather look half assing it.

If you wanna go for a para-military/strikeforce look, the military black canvas pants and shirts make way more sense than bright yellow leather. I mean, if you wanna make it evident they're X-men, then throw the classic yellow X in the form of a patch on the shoulders, that would look cool too.

[Sentinel K]

Was it ever definately stated that it WAS leather? Or are people just assuming?

Can someone give me some evidence. (I'm not being an ass i just can't remember a specific reference)

I don't have my morrison trades to hand so can't look it up.

[Valen]

ugh. Skids is one of my favorite characters. She really was A-list in her day. Yuck.
I've been reading comics for over 20 years, and somehow I seem to have missed the "day" Skids could be considered an A-Lister.

[Keith_Martineau]

How is it comparable to a rescue workers uniform? I've never seen a fireman, emt, or police officer in leather pants. I think if you're going to do something, do it right, don't halfass it. The concept of becoming more "realistic" and using leather is half assing it, leather is restrictive and holds heat. Like I said the only "realistic" use of wearing full leather is to prevent road rash if you fall off a bike, otherwise its not very realistic. I consider the leather look half assing it.

If you wanna go for a para-military/strikeforce look, the military black canvas pants and shirts make way more sense than bright yellow leather. I mean, if you wanna make it evident they're X-men, then throw the classic yellow X in the form of a patch on the shoulders, that would look cool too.

They were not going for para-military/strikeforce. They were going for assistance/rescue. Hence the bright yellow. They went with black leather because that was identifiable to the crowd who'd seen the movies and were familiar with that motif. I do not consider this half-assed. I consider this to be completely within reason, and just fine for a fictional universe.

[TinMan]

They were not going for para-military/strikeforce. They were going for assistance/rescue. Hence the bright yellow. They went with black leather because that was identifiable to the crowd who'd seen the movies and were familiar with that motif. I do not consider this half-assed. I consider this to be completely within reason, and just fine for a fictional universe.

Ok, even if they were going for assistance/rescue, its still retarded to go with leather. It limits movement, which in rescue or combat situations could cost lives. It contains heat because of the lack of breathability which could cause exhaustion, overheating, and delusions. Its just a bad, not thought through premise. I'm sorry, but spandex makes way more sense than leather because at least that doesn't limit movement nor trap heat.

Sure they partially did it because of the movie, but I do know that Morrison pushed for it by stumping the more "realistic" approach, which is not the case. Thats why I say it was a half-assed approach. Besides you could still put the big gawdy looking yellow X across the chest of the canvas material and still gain the benefits that I've stated.

[Sentinel K]

I don't really think it matters that much.

In my opinion it looked pretty darn cool. I liked it. I sympathised with Logan in Astonishing #1

[TinMan]

I don't really think it matters that much.

In my opinion it looked pretty darn cool. I liked it. I sympathised with Logan in Astonishing #1

Not me. The reasoning behind the leather didn't make sense and I think it looked even campier than the spandex (which technically isn't spandex anyway, they're clothes made of unstable molecules :p ).

[Slumber Hulk]

Gazers loyalty post transformation is to set up Gambit's loyalty to Poccy. (And yes, the Gambit take on for the team thing is a major rerun of Wolverine's run as death, only then it was unexpected understandable and original.)

And what is with sending those 4 x-men alone to battle Poccy? It was all based on a cowards powers which may or may not help. They had no chance 4 on one. Then you add on the 198 who switched over plus they had to know he had more Horsemen! It was sending lambs to the slaughter.

I hope the next iss features Gambit wailing on them.

[Beast]

I don't really think it matters that much.

In my opinion it looked pretty darn cool. I liked it. I sympathised with Logan in Astonishing #1
Logan's comments in both New X-Men and Astonishing X-Men didn't make sense.

He wore his costume long before joining the X-Men, and often wore it several times when he wasn't associated with the X-Men directly. If he hated the 'tights' so much, then why the heck did he wear it so often. In fact, the whole discussion between Xavier and the others in New X-Men when they're talking about the new outfits made little sense. For cripes sake, Beast ran around in his underpants of his own choosing for years, since he wasn't even an X-Man when he turned blue and furry. If he hated the 'Superhero Look', he should have chosen something less 'Superheroish'. It just read like Morrison commenting on his dislike for costumes, and didn't ring true for any of the characters. But that was most of his run, characters speaking as proxies of himself, instead of in actual character. Don't get me wrong, I like some of his ideas, and the first half was pretty entertaining, but snarky commentary on the franchise and characters just felt forced. :p

[Sentinel K]

Logan's comments in both New X-Men and Astonishing X-Men didn't make sense.

He wore his costume long before joining the X-Men, and often wore it several times when he wasn't associated with the X-Men directly. If he hated the 'tights', then why the heck did he wear it so often. In fact, the whole discussion between Xavier and the others in New X-Men when they're talking about the new outfits made little sense. For cripes sake, Beast ran around in his underpants of his own choosing for years, since he wasn't even an X-Man when he turned blue and furry. If he hated the 'Superhero Look', he should have chosen something less 'Superheroish'. :p

I know it didn't make much sense. I still sympathised though.

What i was confused by though, is that a lot of Uncanny (reload) took place before 'Gifted' (I think), so they were ALREADY back in costume.

[We R. Venom]

THEY BUTCHERED ICEMAN!!!!........his character, i mean.

Its standard in todays x-men, but we can wait for teh next run. as well, yeah I was expecting much from Shiro, he didnt do shit. What i the point of the arc? Really?

[Keith_Martineau]

Sure they partially did it because of the movie, but I do know that Morrison pushed for it by stumping the more "realistic" approach, which is not the case. Thats why I say it was a half-assed approach. Besides you could still put the big gawdy looking yellow X across the chest of the canvas material and still gain the benefits that I've stated.

Actually if you read the Morrison Manifesto, his concerns were more tainted by creating something cutting edge fashion-wise, while keeping things recognizable for the movie, and having realistic elements that called to mind emergency response crews. The New X-Men garb designed by Quitely is pretty much a perfect synthesis of those requirements.

And yes, leather is a bad choice and is unrealistic in that context (even though people wore leather armor for centuries) but then again, there's no such thing as unstable molecules either.
So, you know, whatever.

[Keith_Martineau]

I know it didn't make much sense. I still sympathised though.

What i was confused by though, is that a lot of Uncanny (reload) took place before 'Gifted' (I think), so they were ALREADY back in costume.

Gifted constitutes the first day of school, and things like New X-Men: Academy X help chronicle some students arriving a little after that even.

These characters were already there when Uncanny started it's own Reload story, so it must have been a few weeks after Gifted. Or at least part of it.

[patch]

at this point im just counting down days until milligans run is finally over and its revealed that they were all (even poccy) under the mind control of the beyonder or something.

at this point the run is starting to rank down there with austens uncanny run...its just sad.

[TinMan]

Actually if you read the Morrison Manifesto, his concerns were more tainted by creating something cutting edge fashion-wise, while keeping things recognizable for the movie, and having realistic elements that called to mind emergency response crews. The New X-Men garb designed by Quitely is pretty much a perfect synthesis of those requirements.

Well, either way, I still don't like them.

And yes, leather is a bad choice and is unrealistic in that context (even though people wore leather armor for centuries) but then again, there's no such thing as unstable molecules either.
So, you know, whatever.

Even if it was worn as armor for centuries that was to block swords and arrows, not fire/ice/energy blasts or punches from someone capable of lifting a house. :p

Though there is no such thing as unstable molecules, it makes more sense in a fictional fantasy world where characters can do all sorts of crazy crap, that they would be the one of the least physically possible things.

[Keith_Martineau]

I thought it worked spectacularly for Wolverine, and Emma's white, uh, leather...whatever it was worked ever so well. Jean never really did much until the end of the run, so for her it was merely clothing. So really the only ones it didn't work for, were Cyke and Beast.

In the end I liked them, but I was glad to see the tights back. The new tights work quite well for everyone....except Cyke and Beast. Damn.

[TinMan]

I thought it worked spectacularly for Wolverine, and Emma's white, uh, leather...whatever it was worked ever so well. Jean never really did much until the end of the run, so for her it was merely clothing. So really the only ones it didn't work for, were Cyke and Beast.

In the end I liked them, but I was glad to see the tights back. The new tights work quite well for everyone....except Cyke and Beast. Damn.

I just never thought they looked impressive at all.

I do like Cyke's new costume, its kind of a throwback to the original but a bit more updated. Beast's is just kinda, "eh" though, its nothing spectacular, just functional.

[Porcelain]

Ok, even if they were going for assistance/rescue, its still retarded to go with leather. It limits movement, which in rescue or combat situations could cost lives. It contains heat because of the lack of breathability which could cause exhaustion, overheating, and delusions. Its just a bad, not thought through premise. I'm sorry, but spandex makes way more sense than leather because at least that doesn't limit movement nor trap heat.

Sure they partially did it because of the movie, but I do know that Morrison pushed for it by stumping the more "realistic" approach, which is not the case. Thats why I say it was a half-assed approach. Besides you could still put the big gawdy looking yellow X across the chest of the canvas material and still gain the benefits that I've stated.
~grins~
Have you ever actually worn spandex (other than a speedo)? It is not breathable, it's a synthetic insulator - leather is actually far better in that regard.

P.S. You mentioned the only use for leather is for bikers when they fall off their bikes...yet you think canvas is better for a team that regulary damages material that's supposed to be akin to body armour? X-men getting thrown around at force, happens a lot.

(Utterly concede the flexibility on that pants in comparison - it was just the jackets & pants that were leather - to a point, however they were no where near as bad as you're stating)

[Fede]

4. The art. WTF? It looked like Milligan drew the most basic of sketches and the colorists added everything else.



in my opinion, the art was the only good thing of the whole issue. those pages with mystique specially

[fishtaco]

I've always liked Skids, but calling her A-list is overstating. She was a fairly major (but secondary to the original X-Men) character in X-Factor. She was, in her day, a strong B-lister.

Sandy HauslerThat's fair. Maybe she wasn't A-list, but she was definitely B-list. Incredible character, her and Rusty. Lobdell killed him off for no reason...

So wait, is Skids loyal to Apocalypse now? And what about Karma?

[Faded]

Re: costumes; I'd have more use with black and dark colors instead of full on leather.

Anyway, I finally read this. Really not liking the art's style, but whatever. I kinda enjoyed this issue--a lot better than the previous two. There are some things that don't mesh well with me (ie Skids standing right next to Scalphunter), but it was pretty interesting I'd say.

I haven't liked Decimation, but I think Milligan and the other writers aren't making good or interesting use of the 198, such as the aforementioned Morlocks/Marauders thing. It kinda further defeats the purpose of keeping them around or erasing the other mutants IMO.

[TinMan]

~grins~
Have you ever actually worn spandex (other than a speedo)? It is not breathable, it's a synthetic insulator - leather is actually far better in that regard.

No, I don't wear spandex, I have no reason to. I've never heard anyone complain about how hot they were in spandex though, so I never knew that, if it is true. I have a hard time believing that leather is far better in that regard though.

This still doesn't address the fact that I suggested canvas as a more realistic material. The way it sounds that would be a better option than either spandex (which, once again, its not technically spandex. So applying the physical properties of spandex to a fictional material is an inplausible arguement) or leather anyway.

P.S. You mentioned the only use for leather is for bikers when they fall off their bikes...yet you think canvas is better for a team that regulary damages material that's supposed to be akin to body armour? X-men getting thrown around at force, happens a lot.

I considered that myself, but when you're getting punched by someone capable of lifting a car, does it really matter that you're wearing leather? No, not at all. I don't even know how you could compare a stupid looking leather jacket to body armor though, its no where near as thick as the old leather armors people wore.

So once again, canvas is a much better choice because it breaths and doesn't restrict movement.

(Utterly concede the flexibility on that pants in comparison - it was just the jackets & pants that were leather - to a point, however they were no where near as bad as you're stating)

Either way though, I still think it was a dumb concept cause the whole all leather thing is so friggin 80's and I thought they were terrible designs anyway. Maybe with a different design rather than that big stupid lookin X across the chest, I would have liked it.

[Sentinel K]

So once again, canvas is a much better choice because it breaths and doesn't restrict movement.



This reminds me of aan out take from the first X men film. When Logan, Scott, JeAN, and Ororo are climbing up over a wall.Hugh Jackman (at least i think it was him) has trouble getting his leg up high enough because of the restictiveness of the leather.

[TinMan]

This reminds me of aan out take from the first X men film. When Logan, Scott, JeAN, and Ororo are climbing up over a wall.Hugh Jackman (at least i think it was him) has trouble getting his leg up high enough because of the restictiveness of the leather.

Exactly.

Theres a reason that our military ground forces wear the canvas stuff. It doesn't tear easy, shrink easy, hold a lot of heat or restrict a lot of movement.

It just makes sense to me that if you're gonna go for a more "realistic" look, go with something that is used practically for the types of situations the characters will be in.

[Beast]

This reminds me of aan out take from the first X men film. When Logan, Scott, JeAN, and Ororo are climbing up over a wall.Hugh Jackman (at least i think it was him) has trouble getting his leg up high enough because of the restictiveness of the leather.
All of them had trouble getting over the wall, a couple of them even nearly fell and hurt themselves because of it, if I recall correctly. Beast's New X-Men costume made the least sense of all of them, like was mentioned above. How the hell was he supposed to be swift, agile, and cat-like in his new form, when he's wearing multiple layers of leather, boots, and that goddamn ascot. :p

[TinMan]

All of them had trouble getting over the wall, a couple of them even nearly fell and hurt themselves because of it, if I recall correctly. Beast's New X-Men costume made the least sense of all of them, like was mentioned above. How the hell was he supposed to be swift, agile, and cat-like in his new form, when he's wearing multiple layers of leather, boots, and that goddamn ascot. :p

Yes, the ascot is the most movement restricting of all!

Maybe he put a wad of catnip in it when they were out on field missions, that way he would get all riled up and freak out! Yeah, thats it! Catnip in the ascot! :p

[Sentinel K]

Yes, the ascot is the most movement restricting of all!

Maybe he put a wad of catnip in it when they were out on field missions, that way he would get all riled up and freak out! Yeah, thats it! Catnip in the ascot! :p

Excuse my apparent ignorance, but what the hell is an 'ascot'?

[TinMan]

Excuse my apparent ignorance, but what the hell is an 'ascot'?

Take a look at the Quitely drawn Morrison era Beast. He's got that puffy chunk or material thats kinda like a scarf stickin out of his jacket, thats an ascot.

Freddy from Scooby Doo also wears one, just a bit different.

[Sentinel K]

Take a look at the Quitely drawn Morrison era Beast. He's got that puffy chunk or material thats kinda like a scarf stickin out of his jacket, thats an ascot.

Freddy from Scooby Doo also wears one, just a bit different.

Oh right, yeah. I getcha.

I've never heard that word before. Learn something new everyday.

[Beast]

The puffy white portion of Beast's New X-Men costume. It's a classical adornment for period costumes, before ties. It fits his personality, being a dignified Beast, but it just looks idiotic. :p

All it did was make him look even more like the Disney version:

http://www.karensoasis.com/index_19.jpg

[Porcelain]

Ooooh an Ascot Tie, now it makes sense. Funny can't remember that at all.

That out take was very amusing, though have to admit those costumes (like most movie stuff) were designed for visuality rather than functionality - plus 99% certain they're padded in a similar fashion to my New Rocks. Never seen a biker have trouble, mounting their er...you know what though, then again doubt a tight pair of jeans could make it over that wall any better.

[Keith_Martineau]

The problem here is that it was just a retarded notion on Morrison's part.
Here we have a character whose had an established appearance for as long as Morrison himself has been writing comics. And he gets the gig on X-Men, thinks about Beast, and realizes that the first thing that comes to mind is Beast from the F'n Disney movie.

Well hells bells, lets make the Marvel beast just like him! Quietly, make it so!

Lame. Secondary mutations was a good idea, and I liked where it was used. But this was a bad one. And now poor Beast has gone from wearing a fetishized formal suit, to a diaper. Good times.


Also.
The military does not wear canvas. Their materials are special produced, specifically to take into account the situations and climates they will be used in.
All told, I like the Kia Asamiya revisions of the leather look for Iceman, Husk and Archangel (minus the loincloth.) That was a good midground between the leather look, and traditional superhero costumes.

[Beast]

And now poor Beast has gone from wearing a fetishized formal suit, to a diaper.
Well, he already had the indignity of a litter box. May as well go even more demeaning. :p

[Chiasm]

How many more issues before the bad man goes away and Carey takes over? :(

I was crying in pain by the time this issue was done.

[Optimus]

4. The art. WTF? It looked like Milligan drew the most basic of sketches and the colorists added everything else.



People blame Milligan for EVERYthing. If you're going to complain about the Art blame Larroca. And I actually really liked the art outside of the way bobby was drawn. I LOVED the cover, even though it had nothing to do with the story. I liked the image of the fallen sentinel and the mutants climbing on it's head. They weren't detailed but I think that was to make them look more off in the distance, the Sentinel was very detailed so I don't think it was lazyness. I liked all the pictures of Apocalypse and Ozymandus, especially the image of Poccy smashing Ozy. I liked how big and menacing War looked, I love how Colossus was drawn. I'm not sure how I feel about Gambit's new costume but I like the drawing of him in it on the last page.

I'm a little curious as to what Apocalypse did to make his hair grow.
I'm also wondering what bodily funcions he has to relearn and why he will have to relearn them, and presumably he's going to go fight the X-Men in the next issue. He can't even perform bodily functions yet Apocalypse is sending him in to fight? Odd.

Why does Poccy keep picking X-Men to be horsemen? Why does he always choose for them to be death? He really should wise up and kill Gambit when Gambit inevitably turns on him. Some failsafes should be built in like a bomb in his skull or something.

[Affinity]

Well, he already had the indignity of a litter box. May as well go even more demeaning. :p
That was a litter box in New X-Men, wasn't it?

Anyway, I didn't like this issue at all. I want another chat with Mike Carey.

[Kal]

How many more issues before the bad man goes away and Carey takes over? :(

I was crying in pain by the time this issue was done.

The worst run ever. And people say Austen's run was bad :rolleyes:

[Neolucifer]

lets just drain one's cup to the dregs .

What? That's sounds cool but what did you say, err type???

Bah i googled for a translation of one of our french sayings (boire le calice jusqu'a la lie) and found this :s ... its was supposed to mean something like , let see it till the bitter end .

[Beast]

That was a litter box in New X-Men, wasn't it?
Yes there was. Cassandra Nova specifically points it out and calls it a litter tray during her torture and humilation of Beast. Beast even later knocks Cassandra/Xavier into it. :(

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/MasterSplinter/beast9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/MasterSplinter/beast10.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/MasterSplinter/beast11.jpg

[Affinity]

Graaaah, that's retarded. Litter box.

Do you like "feral Beast" in Astonishing? When he loses it?

[Beast]

Graaaah, that's retarded. Litter box.

Do you like "feral Beast" in Astonishing? When he loses it?
I like the concept, since it's not really him losing it, but shunting off his intellect and going on pure instinct. It gives him an advantage, especially against someone like Danger that knows his fighting style and tactics. But he didn't need to turn into a giant Pussy Cat to have that development. Way back in X-Men: The Hidden Years, Beast found he had a feral side even in human form, when Kraven made it come out. Claremont was even going to develop the whole 'More of a Beast than a Man' thing in X-Treme, during the planned Savage Land storyline before Beast was grabbed by Morrison. We later saw some of it during the SL mini, but it was different than planned. :)

[Hi-Fi]

We later saw some of it during the SL mini, but it was different than planned. :)

Ugh. And Thank the Lord it was just a mini!

[Beast]

Ugh. And Thank the Lord it was just a mini!
I liked that storyline. But I liked the original plans for it better. :)

[Sentinel K]

I love lamp.

[Stagier]

I don't understand what the heck is going on. Alex talks about his squad handeling the situation. But half the team is gone, logan, lorna and remy. so what do they do? take one of his students in. Why did they send bling! into the pyramid?
"C'mon Bling!!, Rev. Stryker will be back any moment, you'll be safer playing with poccy!"
While all the rest of the x men stand around and talk to val about the sentinels.

what was the point of pulse and mystique? What is up with ozymandias? is he just a running gag?

Gambit's reason for being turned also makes no sense. Skids being with apocolypse makes no sense either. You would have thought she would have learned her lesson by siding with mags, and then falling out of the sky.

next writer please....

[TinMan]

The military does not wear canvas. Their materials are special produced, specifically to take into account the situations and climates they will be used in.

Oh dear god... I thought I was nitpicking, but complaining about specific climates is a bit much. I think my point was understood when I posted the picture, meaning, "military combat garb makes more sense than leather".

[Will.S]

I don't understand what the heck is going on. Alex talks about his squad handeling the situation. But half the team is gone, logan, lorna and remy. so what do they do? take one of his students in. Why did they send bling! into the pyramid?
"C'mon Bling!!, Rev. Stryker will be back any moment, you'll be safer playing with poccy!"
While all the rest of the x men stand around and talk to val about the sentinels.
They were just using who they had on-hand. The X-Men roster is pretty stretched thin now with Logan on his own, Lorna somewhere captured and Iceman not using his powers as much. It's cool that they try to get everyone involved even if it's a danger to their safety but when isn't there a danger to their safety?

what was the point of pulse and mystique? What is up with ozymandias? is he just a running gag?

Pulse is their ace up their sleeve, I liked the scene where he admits that he's not a tough guy. Ozymandias continues his betrayal of Apocalypse and I think after this arc he'll separate from Apocalypse from her on in. It's interesting, their frustrations with each other have never come to a head like this even when Ozymandias helped purge Apoc from Cyclops.

[Faded]

I don't understand what the heck is going on. Alex talks about his squad handeling the situation. But half the team is gone, logan, lorna and remy. so what do they do? take one of his students in. Why did they send bling! into the pyramid?
"C'mon Bling!!, Rev. Stryker will be back any moment, you'll be safer playing with poccy!

Well they are giving the X-Men treatment to the students in New X-Men as well, so actually this is one of the more consistent moves.

[rilokyle]

I was thinking, and I wonder why Karma would let Skids join with Apocalypse, seeing as she seemingly prevented her from drinking the blood shat in the last issue. If I was Karma I would have possessed Skids and get her out of there. So much for friendship.

[Stagier]

They were just using who they had on-hand. The X-Men roster is pretty stretched thin now with Logan on his own, Lorna somewhere captured and Iceman not using his powers as much. It's cool that they try to get everyone involved even if it's a danger to their safety but when isn't there a danger to their safety?




But scott, peter, shan and betsy were all just standing there!

[cable guy]

just finished reading this issue... and I liked it. Obviously I'm in the minority here. But I'm surprised at how critical alot of people are.

While I can understand alot of peoples complaints, I still think this it is a decent and entertaining story.

Maybe it's due to laziness, or just no care for the characters personality, I admit this arc, Milligans run for that matter, is lacking something.

This arc could have been alot more epic, but at the same time I have to give him some credit to putting together a pretty good 5 issue story.

[The Fury]

Skids is doing well for herself huh? siding with the bad guys....

An okay read, and shockingly imporved art...it actually looked good.

Although the last page didn't look that great.

[Bard]

"My reason for joining you, 'Pocalypse, is 'cause I want te join de Death Club Fo X-Men along with Logan and Warren."

Dang, my hubby's been reading my mind again! :eek:

[Neolucifer]

Oh what the heck !! Everyone should just drop the remaining Milligan issues , read it at a friend or a store to get the rest of the story , and just buy instead books that really deserve it .. like The Thing and She hulk (and of course Cable Deadpool)

[The Sword Is Drawn]

This really was a low point in this arc, in my opinion. Thus so far Blood of Apocalypse had been one of Milligan's better attempts at mainstream X-Writing, and in fact the previous two issues were actually quite readable. The central premise wasn't all bad, and the character interaction was better than most of his run...

But this issue? Am I the only one who thought that the dialogue, in all quarters, was abyssmal? I mean really really bad? Cliched, simple and totally lacking in any dramatic weight or clarity bad!? :eek:

The artwork, as with the previous two issues, was quite interesting, but it seemed to e trying - almost - to overcompensate for the lack of gravitas supplied by the words.

This reminded me so badly of all those cobbled together early 90s filler titles, that every brand was guilty of at the time. Whereby the quality flatlined, with a writer rushing out any old crap because they were being spread far too thinly across the board. But other than the Dead Girl mini what's Milligan actually working on.

This felt rushed, and left a sour taste in my mouth. Just when I thought Milliganm was finally starting to turn things around. :(

[TJ Shoun]

But this issue? Am I the only one who thought that the dialogue, in all quarters, was abyssmal? I mean really really bad? Cliched, simple and totally lacking in any dramatic weight or clarity bad!?


Yup, I thought the same thing. Dialogue was horribly awkward in places.

But what really pisses me off is the ho-hum vibe I get from the entire damn arc.

"Huh? Oh, Apocalypse is here. *yawn* Well hell, I guess we better suit up guys."

Please.

This shit should be rife with a sense of uber-dread and epic grandeur, but it's not. Apocalypse is getting villain-of-the-month treatment and I don't like that precedent. This guy is a premier Marvel U badguy, right up there with Doom, Magneto, Thanos, and the Red Skull.

Jeeez, he is kinda of big deal considering 10 years ago, the X-Office completey flipped the X-World into an alternate reality that was ran by him.

But whatever.

Anyway, if nothing else Salva's art was nice.

btw, I'd love to see the Gambit origin mentioned in The End officially become canon, but Apocalypse was rather ambiguous. He didn't mention Cyke or Sinister specifically, just something about his lineage in general. You know how Marvel doesn't like to commit to things too early when it comes to stuff like this -- so don't look for it the Handbook just yet.

[Stone Temple Pilot]

This shit should be rife with a sense of uber-dread and epic grandeur, but it's not. Apocalypse is getting villain-of-the-month treatment and I don't like that precedent. This guy is a premier Marvel U badguy, right up there with Doom, Magneto, Thanos, and the Red Skull.

Jeeez, he is kinda of big deal considering 10 years ago, the X-Office completey flipped the X-World into an alternate reality that was ran by him.

I completely agree. Apocalypse used to be my favorite villain back in those days. Now he seems more like the Mandarin on the old Iron Man cartoon in terms of threat. Well maybe that's an exaggeration, but still... His character treatment leaves something to be desired.

[Tommy]

Seriously! SKIDS WAS A MORLOCK! Even IF she was persuaded by Apocalpyse no way would she stand beside those murderers.
Apparently someone has not been reading the 198. The Morlocks and Marauders have been hanging out a lot there.

[Affinity]

That just goes to show that David Hine isn't thinking right. Emma and Kitty aren't BFF because of Decimation, and they aren't even all that dramatic.

[Tommy]

That just goes to show that David Hine isn't thinking right. Emma and Kitty aren't BFF because of Decimation, and they aren't even all that dramatic.
My crazy stab at it making sense is that post-Decimation the mutants all got together and did some sort of Fables style pact were everyone is forgiven.

[Affinity]

That could be it; makes sense.

But still, the Massacre was TERRIBLE, really violent. Side by side with the people who murdered your only friends and family?

[Haunt]

That could be it; makes sense.

But still, the Massacre was TERRIBLE, really violent. Side by side with the people who murdered your only friends and family?


Scalphunter: hey, kids. wanna hacky-sack. *kicks sack towards them*

Assembled Morlocks: no way, do0d! you're one of those nasty Marauders what killed our friends.

Scalphunter: no way do0dz! i'm innocent. it was one of Mr Sinister's clones, using my guns, who killed your friends; violently and without mercy.

Assembled Morlocks: ohhhh...ok. s'all good.

they all start a rousing game of hacky sack and live happily ever after.

[Nobbel]

So, seems no-one (including me) figured out whoo the melting woman is on the cover huh?

I liked the book. Wonder what's gonna happen with the Pulse character thou.

Also liked the fact they send Bling! with the team into the Sphinx.

Apo should kill Ozymandias now and show his old style. I think he became weaker because he once melted with Cyclops don't you?

[TJ Shoun]

I think he became weaker because he once melted with Cyclops don't you?


Hmmm... maybe.

That may have something to do with this watered-down version of Apacalypse.

At least I hope so.

But it still doesn't justify the overall ho-hum vibe of this story. Any time he rears his head (watered-down or extra sugar version), it should be an event promising heavy consequences... not just another story arc, like this one reads. :rolleyes:

[Affinity]

Lol, the melting woman reminds me of way back when the solicits for this issue FIRST came out, some die hard Polaris fans were speculating that it was Polaris with new powers, a metallic skin (=Colossus, IMO, but they were desperate for anything). This was over at Comix Fan.

I also remember looking at Wizard's list of HoM effects---I scoffed at the whole Decimation (which became true) plot line.

[Will.S]

This shit should be rife with a sense of uber-dread and epic grandeur, but it's not. Apocalypse is getting villain-of-the-month treatment and I don't like that precedent. This guy is a premier Marvel U badguy, right up there with Doom, Magneto, Thanos, and the Red Skull.

Jeeez, he is kinda of big deal considering 10 years ago, the X-Office completey flipped the X-World into an alternate reality that was ran by him.
Well that's what happens when you have one book doing both his resurrection and battle with the X-Men versus like the whole X-Line in AoA. Books like Cable & Deadpool and Apocalypse vs Dracula have also been very involved with the villain so if you want more books for an Apoc fix they are readily available.

Perhaps if Apocalypse's return was done similar to the Twelve in format it would have felt more far reaching but I like the way they are approaching it. The Uncanny team isn't really affected yet since they're sorta doing their own thing in their own title as well as some of Deadly Genesis but the other home team of the Astonishing X-Men, the New X-Men kids at the school, regular X-Men and the 198 are all crammed in the book fighting off Apocalypse and his horsemen so it's not like they are ignoring the other teams.

[streator]

i just read the issue...

it was alright. i admittedly enjoyed some of it.
i still think gambit's reasoning in becoming death is lame, but it came off better after reading the actual issue.
i liked apoc's dialogue.
i liked the art.

i liked this issue more than i thought i would and more than i probably earlier posted (i don't feel like going back through everything).