For God's Sake, WiR.

[Gail Simone]

First, if you didn't read it, or don't understand it, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE QUIT TALKING ABOUT IT. It gives me a massive headache!

Two statements keep coming up, often from idiots of the Static-Pulse stripe, guys who look for things to be upset about, and both are so far off the mark you might as well say it's a Curious George fansite.

1) "Yeah, but bad things happen to men, too!"

No doy. The question Yabs asked was if the PERCENTAGE and NATURE of the career-stopping violence to characters was different based on gender.

Is this REALLY so impossible to get? I mean, I look at that and don't have a clue why that's beyond some people. If the answer is no, then fine. If yes, then you have to wonder why. Why (and don't forget WiR was very time-specific...it was about a certain perceived trend in comics, one I still believe was very valid) would female characters be killed, maimed, and depowered with a greater percentage and duration than male characters.

The difference isn't subtle. Dumb remark #1 flatly ignores what the site was about.

2) "How come Gail, who did WiR, has female characters get beaten up?"

ARRRRRRRRRGH.

I said it on the site then, and I repeat it for the eleventieth million time. This was never, EVER about the standard tropes of adventure comics. If Black Canary got beat up, that would NEVER have gotten her put on the list. She was put on the list for being depowered (and I think raped, although Grell clarified that she wasn't...so a bit of a blooper there, if I remember).

Get it? One is a transitory story element, one is meant to be a permenent defanging. Why? Why did so many female characters get depowered during this time?

And then section b, why did so many get permanently maimed or killed? That's what our site asked, and I didn't provide the answers...I asked people more qualified. Those who have tried to turn WiR into a man-hating site are simply too dense to talk to.

The goal should be having female characters who are neither mere appendages to male characters, nor so Ororo perfect that they really only serve as an ideal, in my opinion. If you have a martial artist female and she wins every time, you're committing a different sin from misogyny, you're committing the crime of dull storytelling.

No one's on the wir list for getting beaten up. That should be simple enough, right?

Sorry, but I wanted to have this where I could refer to it the next time someone who didn't really read the site wanted to use it to call me a hypocrite.

Gail

[kingdom2000]

a) What set off this tirade, post a linky. Might as well feed the beast for that that will come in to do the back-pats and the rah-rahs.

b) ug why bring it up. Everyone is going to jump in now for the next five days to show how much they support Wir, how horrible is it that writers do it (cause they subconsciencely have a hatred of women) and well the rest can write itself or pick a random WiR thread at random.

I am so sick of it being brought up by every tom, dick and butch (rarely do the women start the thread) who seem to mostly want to show off how sensitive they are, that frankly your whole point about WiR has gotten diluted and made irrelevant.

[Gail Simone]

Some of the dumbest comments ever made by humans have been made about Wir, exactly. I'm sick of explaining it, but sometimes very nice people misunderstand and I feel bad about it and end up blah blah blah BLAH.

I just wish people would read it before they get the EUREKA! brilliant idea to claim I'm a hypocrite, because GOOD LORD I'm sick of it.

Gail

[Sabrinaset]

Uhm, Kingdon, I think I was the one who started this. I brought up the fact that Gail, who had done the WiR, has not dealt with Dr. Light, known rapist who is still flying around out there. Gail is being polite in not naming me, but I'm the one who screwed up here, I guess. I'm sorry, all.

[Gail Simone]

You are mistaken, Sabrina. The person who started it is not a bad person at all, it's just a topic I'm tired of explaining.

Gail

[kingdom2000]

Uhm, Kingdon, I think I was the one who started this. I brought up the fact that Gail, who had done the WiR, has not dealt with Dr. Light, known rapist who is still flying around out there. Gail is being polite in not naming me, but I'm the one who screwed up here, I guess. I'm sorry, all.

I not sure what your talking about. I am referring to WiR centric threads started here for oh the last year or so. All of em play out the same, all of em are mostly guys falling over themselves trying to show how sensitive they are to the "plight" of women in comics and the world in general. Do a search to see what I mean. Usually the occur anytime something bad has to a female character. Doesn't matter what the bad is, just something, anything and suddenly "ooh ooh WiR!!?!?!?!"

[Sabrinaset]

Maybe these guys you refer to should start caring LESS about what is happening to the women in the comics and MORE about what is happening to women in the reality they live and breathe in! Somehow, I think these guys have it the other way around.

I just want the guilty to be punished. Preferably horribly, like something out of an old EC comic. If I were a super-hero, I'd probably be someone like Rorshach. Or a "good" version of the Crime Doctor, but mutilating super-villains.

Of course, I'm just some dumb blonde, so what do I know...

[kingdom2000]

Of course, I'm just some dumb blonde, so what do I know...

Always good to be able to identify your limitations... :evilsmile

[Spike-X]

You are mistaken, Sabrina. The person who started it is not a bad person at all, it's just a topic I'm tired of explaining.

Gail
So you're saying Sabrina is a bad person?

[kingdom2000]

So you're saying Sabrina is a bad person?

I thought that was just common knowledge?*

*in a mood and these pop flys are hard to resist

[Gaz]

Maybe these guys you refer to should start caring LESS about what is happening to the women in the comics and MORE about what is happening to women in the reality they live and breathe in! Somehow, I think these guys have it the other way around.

I just want the guilty to be punished. Preferably horribly, like something out of an old EC comic. If I were a super-hero, I'd probably be someone like Rorshach. Or a "good" version of the Crime Doctor, but mutilating super-villains.

Of course, I'm just some dumb blonde, so what do I know...
So, the Punisher, but with boobs?
Because you're not supposed to go "Hey, that's a good idea!" when you read that stuff...

My slight quibble with WiR is when the line is blurry. Pretty much my favorite comic is Alias, and there's some pretty deplorable stuff done to female characters in that, especially Jessica herself. But without that, the character wouldn't be half as complex. Now a case could be made that those are gratuitous and amount to the same thing. (At least two characters aren't superhero-ing afterwards)
You can make a similar, albeit much weaker argument for Young Avengers...

[Brian Cronin]

Really, you would think that WiR was the Rule Against Perpetuities, the way that it is so difficult to grasp by so many.

Anyhow, I'm totally with Gail on the fact that, if you don't know what WiR is, DON'T USE IT in your discussion!! Really, that should be the case for anything (if you don't understand what you're talking about, don't talk about it), but it seems to come up with WiR all the damn time.

-Brian

[Ogdred]

I think I will use WiR in all my discussions from now on, especially those that have nothing to do with comics. Someone asks me how my day is going, I'll say, "it's women in refrigerators, man. Women in refrigerators."

[Lester C.]

Here is a link to WIR as furnished by Gail’s chronicler SK 716.

http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/

After you check out WIR check out SK 716 website The Simone index which is all about Gail. Sk’s site contains a list and description of Gail’s entire body of work as well links to where you can purchase Gail’s stuff not available at your local LCS. This site is truly a must for YABS members and you can find it here.

http://simoneindex.oddduck.net/

[west3man]

For one thing, people who don't understand things often think they do. There goes choosing not to talk about things you don't understand. That's the fan.

A lot of people don't even grasp the concept of fairness or correcting unfair situations**. That's the shit*.


This is one of the causes of knee-jerk reaction that's so common when issues of racism or sexism are discussed.





* - and not in the good way.
** - and/or aren't interested in fairness

[blackcanary_416]

I don't know where they would get the idea that the list was for "women who have been beaten up." It clearly states on almost every name that they have been "depowered" or "dead".

Taking classes to be a Journalist, fact checking is very important and it just makes you sound dumb and annoys other people.

[Lester C.]

A double post but its important to this tread because it contains link that will clarify WIR because readers can experience the site thus becoming knowledgeable about what WIR is so I'm posting it on the new page.


Here is a link to WIR as furnished by Gail’s chronicler SK 716.

http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/

After you check out WIR check out SK 716 website The Simone index which is all about Gail. Sk’s site contains a list and description of Gail’s entire body of work as well links to where you can purchase Gail’s stuff not available at your local LCS. This site is truly a must for YABS members and you can find it here.

http://simoneindex.oddduck.net/

[Super Sonic]

Women in Refridgerators?

That's my kinda eatin'!

...sorry, I had to.

Continue.

[Charles RB]

No doy. The question Yabs asked was if the PERCENTAGE and NATURE of the career-stopping violence to characters was different based on gender.

Has anyone done a comparitive list of the same thing being done to men? On the face of it, hideously violent and career-stopping nastiness does seem to happen a lot to men, at least in the comics I end up reading (alas, Judge Giant, getting shot dead in the back and nobody being shown mourning you despite your long service...).

[Noah Johnson]

First, if you didn't read it, or don't understand it, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE QUIT TALKING ABOUT IT. It gives me a massive headache!
Gail, do what I do with lunatic fanboy criticisms. Just say to yourself, "Well, on the one hand, he has a perfect right to his opinion. On the other hand, I've actually had sex with a woman."

[Michael P]

Gail, do what I do with lunatic fanboy criticisms. Just say to yourself, "Well, on the one hand, he has a perfect right to his opinion. On the other hand, I've actually had sex with a woman."
Gail's had sex with a woman?

[Sharpandpointies]

Gail, do what I do with lunatic fanboy criticisms. Just say to yourself, "Well, on the one hand, he has a perfect right to his opinion. On the other hand, I've actually had sex with a woman."

I thought Gail was just a Lebian....

[sk716]

Here is a link to WIR as furnished by Gail’s chronicler SK 716.

http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/

After you check out WIR check out SK 716 website The Simone index which is all about Gail. Sk’s site contains a list and description of Gail’s entire body of work as well links to where you can purchase Gail’s stuff not available at your local LCS. This site is truly a must for YABS members and you can find it here.

http://simoneindex.oddduck.net/


Hmm, apparently, Lester is my new publicist.

[MacQuarrie]

Has anyone done a comparitive list of the same thing being done to men? On the face of it, hideously violent and career-stopping nastiness does seem to happen a lot to men, at least in the comics I end up reading (alas, Judge Giant, getting shot dead in the back and nobody being shown mourning you despite your long service...).
See the section of WiR entitled "Dead Men Defrosting."

[MacQuarrie]

As for me, I always thought WiR was more a screed against lazy cliche-ridden writing than specifically about sexism in comics.

[matterconsumer]

Well I haven't called Gail a hypocrite.

So I guess I should.

Wheels in Reverse.

I'm not in the mood to call Gail a hypocrite either. No controversy here...

[sk716]

If Gail was going about randomly killing off established male characters to further a female character, then she would be a hypocrite.

YoGo doesn't count.

[Vesper]

Wait, so you're saying that all male writers thoroughly detest, and consequently transmogrify, female characters? Especially the thongs?

I think I get it now!

[matterconsumer]

Does that result in bigger or smaller thongs?

And do they require refrigeration?

[Lester C.]

Hmm, apparently, Lester is my new publicist.
There are times in life when you need a shower. This would be one.

[Sabrinaset]

Gail's had sex with a woman?


Haven't we all?


Well, except for Super-Sonic...

[Ed Cunard]

At the very least, people who misunderstood WiR or never read it did one good thing.

They prompted Gail to type "no doy." I just had a total 6th grade flashback. It was a pleasant trip down memory lane--I'm going to have to start saying or thinking "no doy" more often.

[TCJohnson]

I originally thought that WiR was about that women in comics should never be touched. At this point I have never heard of Gail Simone or WiR, but somebody came on the DC boards yelling that is what WiR is about, and any writer who writes a woman having something bad to them in comics is a mysoginist (excuse my spelling) and if I disagreed with WiR I was a mysonginist too.

That is actually why I first came to YABs, to find out exactly what Gail has been saying and I did my own research...and I have been here ever since.

But there are people on both sides, supporters and detractors, who has been spreading misinformation about WiR.

[Noah Johnson]

Haven't we all?


Well, except for Super-Sonic...
...and Blair, if we're to believe his claims. :)

That actually gives me an idea for a thread.

[Crowley]

isn't the equation:

Gwen Stacy= WiR
Carrie Stetko= not a WiR

[ThatTalkingGuy1]

"No doy. The question Yabs asked was if the PERCENTAGE and NATURE of the career-stopping violence to characters was different based on gender."

I think the problem is that in order to do a comparitive analyisis, you need to investigate both sides. If WiR were fleshed out to the point where you could actually make conclusions about the percentage and nature of the career-stopping violence I would be very interested in the results.

And I don't mean this as an insult or to decry the work or the point or Gail herself. I just think it is massively incomplete and cannot really be used to make a statement one way or the other.

[f. chong rutherford]

The trouble is, the site is kind of like 'The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn' in this sense. Most people have an opinion, sometimes strong, on the subject at hand. Whether they've actually read the material is another matter all together.

Seriously, just go read the damn site!

[stealthwise]

It is just me, or would the funniest interview ever be Gail trying to explain WiR to Ali G?

[Gaz]

It is just me, or would the funniest interview ever be Gail trying to explain WiR to Ali G?
"So, it is like when da bitches get shot in da head, but only if it's cos they is had it comin' to dem?" :p