Liberals, Progressives, and Democrats Only, Please... [Archive]

f. chong rutherford

03-21-2006, 08:10 PM

Do you think Bush has accomplished anything worthwhile or admirable in his tenure?

Nothing backhanded, please. I'm looking for things he did that you felt were wise or good decisions.

Gail

The Dubai port deal was close. Despite all the claims of, "putting foxes in charge of the henhouse," in terms of economic security (and continuing to ensure that at least $10 billion/week in U.S. capital floating outside the nation pours back in) it was the right thing to do. Bad enough that the Democrats managed to derail it on reasons that were, whether most cared to admit it or not, largely based on racism and nationalism. Worse yet, Republicans doing the same thing. The Democrats unwittingly painted themselves into a corner; no national Democrat could point the underlying racism of it all, lest the hyporcrisy of the whole thing come tumbling out.

I am not a big fan of globalization. The Clinton-era was the only real chance to alter the balance. Now, with entrenched electronic transactions, globalization is a very dangerous reality for the U.S.. Bush ALMOST did the right thing with that port deal, given the current economic climate. Of course, since his administration didn't even really TRY to get the deal pushed through, that ALMOST isn't worth much in the end.

That's about it.

TCJohnson

03-21-2006, 08:12 PM

The Dubai port deal was close. Despite all the claims of, "putting foxes in charge of the henhouse," in terms of economic security (and continuing to ensure that at least $10 billion/week in U.S. capital floating outside the nation pours back in) it was the right thing to do. Bad enough that the Democrats managed to derail it on reasons that were, whether most cared to admit it or not, largely based on racism and nationalism. Worse yet, Republicans doing the same thing. The Democrats unwittingly painted themselves into a corner; no national Democrat could point the underlying racism of it all, lest the hyporcrisy of the whole thing came to fruition.

I agree with this. Bush impressed me during this.

Vesper

03-21-2006, 08:13 PM

Invoking the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" clause, I'd say that he meant well with his No Child Left Behind Act. It's simply shortsighted and poorly implemented (like everything else).

f. chong rutherford

03-21-2006, 08:14 PM

I agree with this. Bush impressed me during this.

Ah, you caught all my bad linguiagal skizills with that quote!

I'd have to add 'deposing the Taliban' to the list, too--good call Crocker. Although, man, it sure took long enough. Imagine if he would've come into 2000 with that in mind.

Noah Johnson

03-21-2006, 08:20 PM

Invoking the "road to hell is paved with good intentions" clause, I'd say that he meant well with his No Child Left Behind Act. It's simply shortsighted and poorly implemented (like everything else).
Actually, no. If you look at how NCLB is structured, it's designed to create artificial, ever-increasing "standards" that schools can't meet. That provides an excuse for cutting their funding, and eventually claiming that the entire concept of public education has failed.

EdContradictory

03-21-2006, 08:23 PM

I'll give him removing the Taliban.

Some of his domestic ideas weren't awful, but then he'd never follow through. Like NCLB. Properly funded, I don't think it's an awful initiative. But he didn't properly fund it.

And he has a cute dog.

Crowley

03-21-2006, 08:27 PM

after 9/11 for about 5 months he seemed to be legitimately willing to take on World terror and to utilize the oppurtunity to go after OBL.

I liked him saying "Dead or Alive." I liked his admiministration going after the Taliban.

those were good starts... but he failed to follow thru.

Vesper

03-21-2006, 08:29 PM

Actually, no. If you look at how NCLB is structured, it's designed to create artificial, ever-increasing "standards" that schools can't meet. That provides an excuse for cutting their funding, and eventually claiming that the entire concept of public education has failed.

What, "poorly implemented" didn't cover that? I meant the principle behind it was ostensibly well-meaning. Emphasizing literacy, improving teacher quality, improving math and science instruction, promoting educational choices, maintaining safe school environments, integrating technology, and increasing ESL resources are all things that I can get behind in principle. It's the execution, and abuse, of these principles to further murky agendas that I disagree with.

Gingold

03-21-2006, 08:30 PM

Agree with the chorus of deposing the Taliban.

I think appointing two African American Secretaries of State is a good thing.

I like the baseball field he put in back of the White House.

I think his guest worker program/amnesty for illegal immigrants is a well-meaning idea.

Crinos

03-21-2006, 08:32 PM

xakko

03-21-2006, 08:47 PM

i agree with the Taliban thing. i remember wanting to bomb the bejeezus out of them when they destroyed the giant Buddhas, and then i found out more about their society...

of all the tax cuts, i do agree in trying to reduce/eliminate the marriage penalty.

Vesper

03-21-2006, 08:52 PM

I dunno, the War on Terrorism has always made as much logistic sense to me as the War on Drugs. ;/

kingdom2000

03-21-2006, 09:01 PM

Well dang since not allowed back handed comments pretty much leaves everything out since the few good ideas ("road to hell...") welll I'm stumped.

timmfan

03-21-2006, 09:15 PM

Do you think Bush has accomplished anything worthwhile or admirable in his tenure?

No.

Worse than Buchanan. (The President who did nothing when the Civil War started, not the "pundit", although he's not any better)

Noah Johnson

03-21-2006, 09:33 PM

What, "poorly implemented" didn't cover that?
It really doesn't. We're talking here about a policy that's actually DESIGNED TO FAIL. The INTENT of the policy is to make schools worse as an excuse to close them down. There's some window dressing, but actually built into the structure of NCLB are deliberately unworkable standards and agendas.

Poor implementation of this policy would be to NOT damage our school system.

Lubichev

03-21-2006, 09:36 PM

Do you want me to be honest or tactful?

howyadoin

03-21-2006, 09:39 PM

Do you want me to be honest or tactful?I have to ask people that question all the damn time.

Ogdred

03-21-2006, 09:44 PM

In principle, I was not opposed to the overthrow of Saddam. I never bought any of the rationales offered by the administration and wish they'd managed to make their case without all the lying and fear-mongering, but for me, as a progressive, overthrowing brutal tyrants seems like an appropriate use of our military power.

The timing was bad, of course, since we were already in Afghanistan and Saddam probably could have waited. Once it was obvious we were going in, I hoped something good would come of it.... Who knew they could fuck things up this badly?

I honestly wish the neo-cons were right about this and that a peaceful, liberal democracy would actually take hold in the Middle-East....and that the Iraqis could enjoy Coca-Cola and that Americans could enjoy falafels and that all the world's nations could work together to eradicate poverty and hunger, etc, etc, and all that hippie free-love bullshit.

But it ain't gonna happen with an incompetent, corrupt fuck-up like Bush at the helm.

matterconsumer

03-21-2006, 09:45 PM

The pursuit of democracy around the world is a worthwhile goal.

Granted it still remains a goal...

Jeff Brady

03-21-2006, 09:51 PM

i agree with the Taliban thing. i remember wanting to bomb the bejeezus out of them when they destroyed the giant Buddhas, and then i found out more about their society...

I remember seeing that on the Daily Show and realized that we'd have to take them out. I knew from that moment that the Taliban was trouble.

Oracle_0128

03-21-2006, 09:57 PM

I think Bush had some potential. Wait...no boos, hisses, or four-letter words til I'm done!

Except that he spend most of his presidency on VACATION.

What do we really know about his stances and policies when he's busy chopping wood? I mean seriously. He's from Texas. I get it. But don't they have Lumberjacks for hire? (And if they do...can I move there?)

Can anyone honestly watch this man deliver a speech without laughing hysterically? That ever-present smirk on his face is a dead giveaway that he is picturing that last episode of Gumby and Pokey he just watched in the Oval office.

I don't think he was well prepared for the job. His "National Guard" enlistment was a bit of a joke. His time in Texas was a bigger joke. And that's not even talking about driving a BASEBALL team into the ground.

Could there be anyone less qualified? If you ruin America's passtime...won't you ruin America?

The economy is in the toilet. The world hates us. Iraq...is a mess! Terrorrism is at an all time high. His vice-president shoots a guy. And this guy....goes on vacation.

Actually...in all seriousness....I think the difference between George W. Bush and the other presidents in my lifetime is that most of them surrounded themselves with an intelligent cabinet. And George didn't.

Were those comments backhanded????

timmfan

03-21-2006, 10:12 PM

Wait, wait, wait. Bush was born in Connecticut. CONNECTICUT.

....although he was raised here, and Texas did elect him governor to start off with....aw, great, I'm depressed again.....

Cam63

03-21-2006, 10:25 PM

I'll agree he did good in Afghanistan.

It's all gone downhill since then.

Crowley

03-21-2006, 10:35 PM

I'd like to add that had he found OBL and brought him in first I think I might have supported them going after Saddam as the next step.

Magneto_X

03-22-2006, 12:12 AM

The war in Afghanistan. That's the only thing that he's done right (leaving aside letting Osama escape from Tora Bora, of course).

Vesper

03-22-2006, 06:50 AM

It really doesn't. We're talking here about a policy that's actually DESIGNED TO FAIL. The INTENT of the policy is to make schools worse as an excuse to close them down. There's some window dressing, but actually built into the structure of NCLB are deliberately unworkable standards and agendas.

Poor implementation of this policy would be to NOT damage our school system.

All right. I think we're mostly just disagreeing over a matter of semantics. Let me reiterate that I don't agree with the policy itself, nor the actual agendas that drive it. I agree with the abstract principles that the Act claims to address. Obviously, there's a huge disconnect between the two.

I picked it out because it's one of the few policies of the Bush administration that I can actually say I agree with in principle (again, NOT the Act itself, but what it claims to address). I can't even begin to comprehend most of the shit this administration comes up with. The Patriot Act? Bypassing the U.N. to invade Iraq? Spying on Americans without (at the very least) getting permission from another branch of gov't? Appointing a commissioner from the International Arabian Horse Association as the head of FEMA (among other rotten appointments)? What the hell!

At least the rationale of "let's improve the quality of our schools" actually makes sense. That's more than I can say for...just about everything else.

west3man

03-22-2006, 06:54 AM

Do you think Bush has accomplished anything worthwhile or admirable in his tenure?

Nothing backhanded, please. I'm looking for things he did that you felt were wise or good decisions.

Gail
I just heard, last night, that Bush charged some agency with the task of increasing the number of minority home-owners within a certain period of time. I only heard part of the NPR segment, but the goal was impressive and the representative for the organization said they were half-way there.

I considered starting a thread about it, but I'd need more info.

Nick Soapdish

03-22-2006, 06:56 AM

1 - Afghanistan.

It's not a complete accomplishment and could have been done a lot better if we didn't invade Iraq, but it's tough to manage a complete victory and there's always going to be some outside interfering factor. He just beat that factor to the punch and introduced his own interference.

2 - I was very skeptical about the Dubai ports deal at first, but I think that he was right there. But that didn't actually go through.

3 - Aid to Africa. We've boosted our aid to Africa (and other third world countries?), although I don't like some of the strings that are attached.

Adam Crocker

03-22-2006, 07:02 AM

The pursuit of democracy around the world is a worthwhile goal.

Granted it still remains a goal...

Y'know, that opens up an entirely different discussion altogether, so much that I could start a whole new thread with it.

lucasb

03-22-2006, 07:19 AM

In his SOTU speech, Bush spoke about our "addiction" to foreign oil, and the necessity of decreasing our dependence on fossil fuels.

I wholeheartedly agree. We need to do this both to reduce our involvement in the middle east, and to improve the environment. Not to mention long-term technology; basing our industries on non-renewable energy sources is clearly a dead-end street.

Not, unfortunately, that I expect anything to actually be done, with an administration wholly owned and operated by Big Oil. It's sort of like the neighborhood drug dealer saying people need to cut down on their addiction to crack.

Sorry, I guess that ended up being backhanded...

Arilou

03-22-2006, 07:35 AM

I'm probably at heart a social-democrat, though I belong in the right-wing of the party, does that count?

Do you think Bush has accomplished anything worthwhile or admirable in his tenure?

The invasions in Afghanistan and Iraq were carried out with great skill (most of the cred goes to his military advisors of course, but anyway) It's the post-war that's been a mess.

I'm not convinced that Bush is *that* bad, not because he hasn't done bad things, but because I (unfortunately) don't think a different president would have made much of a difference (though iraq is actually arguable, Afghanistan would still have ended up a mess, and there would still have been a very complicated and useless "war on Terror" being prosecuted under a democratic president: The structures in american society bears the blame more than the President personally I'd say)

Crinos

03-22-2006, 09:48 AM

Expletive Deleted

03-22-2006, 09:58 AM

Didnt he also say he wanted to oppose the creation of "Human-animal Hybrids?"He did.

I have to say, I do admire his principled stand against the ongoing threat of the Mole Men insurgency. Ever since George Reeves died, no one else has had the guts to stand up to those subterranean terrorists.

Rik Levins

03-22-2006, 07:55 PM

Don't know if I really qualify as a liberal. I'm registered as an independent.

I do think finding alternative fuel sources would be a good idea. I also agree with Bush on nuclear energy (or is that nuculer?) and expanding the space program.

Crinos

03-22-2006, 08:38 PM

He did.

I have to say, I do admire his principled stand against the ongoing threat of the Mole Men insurgency. Ever since George Reeves died, no one else has had the guts to stand up to those subterranean terrorists.

Well, he's lost the furry vote at any rate. :p

LibrarianThorne

03-22-2006, 09:33 PM

Do you think Bush has accomplished anything worthwhile or admirable in his tenure?

Nothing backhanded, please. I'm looking for things he did that you felt were wise or good decisions.

Gail

1. Afghanistan. This was the "right" war, and the destruction of the Taliban was long past due. I will not comment on recent events, as you want positive stuff.

2. Oh man, is this going to get me in to trouble. Iraq, I think in retrospect, was a good move. Kicking Saddam Hussein out of power and letting the Iraqi people, for better or worse, choose their fate was a noble endeavor. Yes, it's a mess and a terrible quagmire, and yes the administration lied about the reasons we went to war, but if the goal was taking Saddam out then that's something I can support.

3. He came to my high school (Hamilton High School) to sign the No Child Left Behind Act. I was there, and it was pretty cool to see the President live and in person.

And that's pretty much it.

Justin D.

03-22-2006, 10:55 PM

Forgetting that that he's surpassed any level of public cronyism ever seen before, Bush's cabinet and administration is and has been quite ethnically diverse compared to other presidents.

Noah Johnson

03-23-2006, 01:26 AM

Forgetting that that he's surpassed any level of public cronyism ever seen before, Bush's cabinet and administration is and has been quite ethnically diverse compared to other presidents.
You know, that's a decent point. Yes, they're all evil corporate pricks, but at least they're not all old white male evil corporate pricks. I guess that's progress.

spoon_jenkins

04-07-2006, 11:30 PM

I think public remarks in the short-term after 9/11 were generally confidence-building and unifying.

The decision to go to war in Afghanistan (and aspects of the execution of that mission) were well done.

the4thpip

04-08-2006, 03:32 AM

Ah, I finally thought of one:
The way the Bush administration worked with the UN in removing Charles Tayler from power in Liberia. Done by the book, done successfully and with a minimum of chaos.

the4thpip

04-08-2006, 03:41 AM

Ah, I finally thought of one:
The way the Bush administration worked with the UN in removing Charles Tayler from power in Liberia. Done by the book, done successfully and with a minimum of chaos.

Red Berens

04-08-2006, 03:51 PM

His administration funded grants to police departments to add a police officer as a full time school resource officer to the jurisdictions high school. I thought that was pretty cool, and my department took advantage of it and added one.

At first, I was leary about the war in Iraq, but after seeing whats going on in Iran, I have to wonder if it was simply to establish a foothold to fight a future, and far worse war. I have to remind myself that the President doesn't tell us everything for a reason. Sometimes because we probably couldn't handle the real reason, or the possible threats looming over us.

estee

04-09-2006, 10:29 AM

The trouble with Bush is that he has no style, no flair. It hurts to hear him speak. You can't look at him without smiling. Its not his fault really.

A politician can get away with anything if he or she just does it style.

As for his policies...eh...I see history being actually quite kind to him. Just the way the world works.

Personally, I believe Afghanistan was a good move. The Taliban just had to be squashed, they were just too lame and stuck in the stone age to be allowed to continue.

Chris Daley

04-09-2006, 05:36 PM

In terms of him being a Republican, I think the dialogue he has begun around immigration reform has been incredbly helpful. In many ways, it was a "no win" conversation for him to begin (some in his own party would hate it, some would find financial benefit in it), yet he did so anyway.

Thankfully, others (primarily, but not exclusively Democrats) have broadened his proposal to include a real possibility of allowing folks to work towards long-term legal status.

I think in many ways this was a conversation that he could have easily avoided (as Cliniton largely did) and while it may help the Republicans in 15 - 20 years (i.e. fewer immigrants will feel alienated from the party) it is a short term loser for them.

For those reasons, I'm impressed that he pushed forward.

Arrjay

04-09-2006, 05:39 PM

Well, he almost died from choking on a pretzel.

Sure, he didn't succeed but it was a good effort.

the4thpip

04-10-2006, 12:48 AM

At first, I was leary about the war in Iraq, but after seeing whats going on in Iran, I have to wonder if it was simply to establish a foothold to fight a future, and far worse war. I have to remind myself that the President doesn't tell us everything for a reason. Sometimes because we probably couldn't handle the real reason, or the possible threats looming over us.
Or you could say that the war destabilized the entire region and reversed the slow trend towards secularization that had been building in Iran for years.