Ms. Marvel

[lonesomefool]

I bought #1, and read it first as I wasnt really expecting much (I still have 13 new comics to read). And I have to say, it was really good. It isnt going to change the world, but it's a pretty fun read and accessible. The writing by Reed, who is new to me, was good, the perfect mix of characterization and action, the pacing brisk, and the dialogue a nice mix of old fashioned and new age dialouge. The art by De la Torre, who is new to me, was pretty good. Didnt blow me away art wise, but it did a good job storytelling wise and did a great job on the last page.

I think anybody who like Birds of Prey should check it out, it came out a couple weeks ago, but my shop still had a ton of copies.

One complaint about it though: Who was the IDIOT who put the Letter page before the last page? It totally gave away the last page. If your gonna do story related covers, which I like, at least have the LETTER's page NOT spoil the suprise.

[TCJohnson]

I disagree. I thought the writing was ameturish at best. The plot structure was a mess.

Not saying it won't get better but I thought the first issue was just not well written.

[lonesomefool]

Really? I can understand not liking it and everything, that's your right, but I dont think it was ameturish at all. This isnt "The Draco" that we are talking about ;)

[TCJohnson]

You have flash backs within flashbacks, you have ending action scenes with expositions, the only character without interchangeable dialogue is a complete cliche...

This is stuff that I have seen in my writing classes, not a professional publication.

This review mirrors my feelings about the book: http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/reviews/114192196484232.htm

[lonesomefool]

I guess I dont think about story structure and all that when I'm reading a comic. I'm a reader, and I had no problem following the story and thought it made complete sense. You have your opinion and I respect it, but it seems to me like your problem is less with the story and plot of the book, and more with the way it was structured. That's cool though, I'm not really trying to get into at thing over it or anything, I just thought some people here might like the book.

[TCJohnson]

I guess I dont think about story structure and all that when I'm reading a comic. I'm a reader, and I had no problem following the story and thought it made complete sense. You have your opinion and I respect it, but it seems to me like your problem is less with the story and plot of the book, and more with the way it was structured. That's cool though, I'm not really trying to get into at thing over it or anything, I just thought some people here might like the book.

Rediting to sound friendlier.

You like the book, I don't. That is all there really is to it, nobody is trying to start a "thing".

ANd structure is part of the plot and story.

[lonesomefool]

I wasnt trying to imply that you were trying to start a thing at all, just saying I dont want to get into a big thing about it.

And again, I had no problems with the structure of the story. But see, you and I have different views on this. I have never written a "script" before and really dont write stories, at least fictional ones. So stuff like flashbacks in a flashback dont bother me, I actually didnt notice it. But you are a write yourself, who admits to taking classes and practicing a lot, etc. So your view and expertise on this is VERY different than mine.

[Gaz]

You have flash backs within flashbacks, you have ending action scenes with expositions, the only character without interchangeable dialogue is a complete cliche...

I didn't see and don't recall any of those. Now there was the whole "which Jessica is it?" thing, but I definitely don't remember multiple flashbacks...or any, for that matter. I remember the lunch, but I thought that was transitioned via bled-over thought dialogue?
Action-adventure often has action scenes followed by exposition. "We smashed the robot, now, who made it? Well, the metal is phelbotinumite...."
And Cap, Jessica and Carol all sounded distinct to me...

[bfrank]

Rediting to sound friendlier.

You like the book, I don't. That is all there really is to it, nobody is trying to start a "thing".

ANd structure is part of the plot and story.


relax....

My problem was with the Jessica's as well....In the classic sense, it makes sense that it's spider woman, however, it seems that it should have been Ms. Jones.....

Carol vs the Brood....always a good time......

[kid_mash]

Why are flash backs within flashbacks considered a bad thing?

[Tommy]

Why are flash backs within flashbacks considered a bad thing?
Monkey Joe says so.

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6255/mj0163zd.jpg

[Corrina]

No narrative flow, no pacing.

Meaning the issue, if I take TC's meaning, is the setup for a story rather than the beginning of a story. A prologue. Some people like them, some don't. I don't. I want a story to start, dammit.

I haven't read this issue of Ms. Marvel. I didn't like the cover art.

[kid_mash]

Monkey Joe makes everything simpler :D

[kid_mash]

The movie "Memento" is awesome.
The movie "Memento" is all flash backs within flashbacks.
Discuss :p

[Corrina]

The movie "Memento" is awesome.
The movie "Memento" is all flash backs within flashbacks.
Discuss :p

Because it works, because his emotional journey goes forward as the movie goes backward. In that sense, it's not a flashback at all.

[kid_mash]

Because it works, because his emotional journey goes forward as the movie goes backward. In that sense, it's not a flashback at all.


Good point. I guess whenever I see "rules" (even perfectly valid ones) in regard to anything creative I just want to brake them.......because I'm a bad ass. ;)






And also a sucky writer :D

[TCJohnson]

No narrative flow, no pacing.

Meaning the issue, if I take TC's meaning, is the setup for a story rather than the beginning of a story. A prologue. Some people like them, some don't. I don't. I want a story to start, dammit.

I haven't read this issue of Ms. Marvel. I didn't like the cover art.


No, that's not what I mean. I am cool with setups if they are done well. Runaways #14 was a setup and I loved it.

This is a review of the book I wrote that states my case: http://www.comixtreme.com/forums//showthread.php?t=25570 Sorry for the length.

[TCJohnson]

The movie "Memento" is awesome.
The movie "Memento" is all flash backs within flashbacks.
Discuss :p


I don't see Memento is a flashback within a flashback. It was a story being told in reverse. I can kind of see what you mean though.

There are times when artists break the rules to achieve a particular effect. It's risky because it frequently doesn't work, but when it does work it works really well. ANd if it doesn't work, I would still give them credit for trying something new.

It only works, however, when the artists understands the rules in the first place. In the case of Ms. Marvel, it didn't come across that he was breaking the rules for a certain affect, it seems like he didn't understand the rules to begin with. As Monkey Joe says, it is sloppy storytelling.

[lonesomefool]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why's it sloppy storytelling? I'm just wondering cause I'm not a writer by any stretch of the imagination.

[Corrina]

Good point. I guess whenever I see "rules" (even perfectly valid ones) in regard to anything creative I just want to brake them.......because I'm a bad ass. ;)




Look at it this way. Suppose you're a scientist. Suppose you disagree with Einstein's theory of relativity.

Before you can prove it doesn't work, you have to know what it means in the first place. If you don't understand the theory being proposed, you can't prove what you want.

Or say you're an architect and want to build a home in a completely different design. Before you do that, you have to understand load-bearing, etc. Once you take that into account, you can get creative.

Similarly, there are a lot of writing rules, though I like to refer to them as guidelines. You can fool around with them a lot but it really helps to know the initial structure and the reasons for it, because that helps guide your choices.

Good writers can morph those guidelines, but my point is they need to start in a certain place.

Usually. Every now and then someone comes along talented enough that when they break rules, it doesn't matter because they're doing something else so well, readers don't notice.

Alot of writer, btw, have an instinctive grasp of story structure, from reading all their lives.

[Michael P]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why's it sloppy storytelling? I'm just wondering cause I'm not a writer by any stretch of the imagination.
When was the last time you remembered a time when you remembered a time when you did something?

That's what a character having a flashback within a flashback does.

[TCJohnson]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why's it sloppy storytelling? I'm just wondering cause I'm not a writer by any stretch of the imagination.


Ok, have you ever told somebody something that happened to you, or have somebody tell you a story and they say, "Wait, wait! I forgot something. Let me back up!" That is essentially a flashback within a flashback. Doesn't it kinda ruin the flow of the story? Or make it harder to follow.

The Simpsons recently did an episode which was Marge telling a story Lisa told her that was told to Lisa from Mr. Burns who heard it from Moe the bartender. That is a flashback within a flashback within a flashback within....can't keep track. They did it for comic effect. But the humor came from how awkward the whole thing was.

In the case of Ms. Marvel, it really messed with point of view as well as the narritive. The first scene was with Ms. Marvel narrating about her days in the air force. Then it jumps to a fight with stiltman...but it turns out this is a flashback in a conversation she is having with Jessica Drew. So who was she talking to in the first part of the story. The audience? Why didn't that Character PoV transfer to the rest of the story? Why did it jump around like that? If it was all in her telling of the story to Jessica...picture somebody telling you a story about one thing and then jumps to something completely unrelated. Would you be able to follow that?

[lonesomefool]

Well the first page or so was the character talking to herself, it's been used in comics for ages so I had no problem with that. And I guess in this case I had no problem following the story, hell I didnt even notice it until you mentioned it. I had an easier time following this book than some of the stuff Warren Ellis and Grant Morrison have put out through Vertigo lol.

[TCJohnson]

Well the first page or so was the character talking to herself, it's been used in comics for ages so I had no problem with that.

And I don't have a problem with that. It was the switch to the next thing that was jarring.

And I guess in this case I had no problem following the story, hell I didnt even notice it until you mentioned it. I had an easier time following this book than some of the stuff Warren Ellis and Grant Morrison have put out through Vertigo lol.


It is not a matter of not being able to follow the story, it just screamed ameture.

[Gaz]

When was the last time you remembered a time when you remembered a time when you did something?

That's what a character having a flashback within a flashback does.
What about starting in the flashback within the flashback, but it's not necessarily a character remembering? (See Whedon, Joss; Serenity)

[lonesomefool]

So you didnt like the book because the writer chose a storytelling device that you dont think is professional? For me, personally I could care less how a writer does it, all I want is a good story. Now you didnt find Ms. marvel to be very good, I did, but my point is that this is where our viewpoints are so different. You seem, and I apologize if this isnt correct, but you seem to examine storytelling devices and the such a lot heavier than myself.

[kid_mash]

It is not a matter of not being able to follow the story, it just screamed ameture.


This to me, (no ofence) seems elitist. The manager of my LCS studied art for years and that gives him a unique insight on the state of comic book art, but one of the things he'll do that bugs the hell out of me is, say I'm having a convesashon with someone in the shop on new book day about a artist we both like, Mark Bagley for instance, he'll take gleefull joy in telling us why exactly we are wrong for likeing that artist. He'll say the composition is all wrong or stuff is out of proposition ect.ect.
Now I know this guy knows a hell of a lot more than me about art but I know what I like and if this stuff had not been pointed out to me I woudent have known that it's "Bad". If knowing more about a art form leeds to not liking somthing because you have been told why you shouldn like it, well sign me up for blissful ignorance. ;)

[TCJohnson]

If you didn't mean any offense then why start with insults?

Where have I said that anybody is wrong in their opinion or that anybody else in here is wrong? Somebody brought up their opinion of the book. I brought up my opinion which was different (oh the horror!). I was questioned on my opinion and I backed it up.

How exactly is that elitist? Where did I say my opinion was worth more than yours? Why do you think it is ok to insult me just because I have a different opinion than yours?

But apparently because I do have an opposing opinion it threatens yours....which I guess implies that your opinion is more important than mine and I shouldn't be giving mine.

Fine. I won't give my opinion again unless it is in complete agreement with Kid Smash so he can have his only with people who agree with him.

[TCJohnson]

So you didnt like the book because the writer chose a storytelling device that you dont think is professional? For me, personally I could care less how a writer does it, all I want is a good story. Now you didnt find Ms. marvel to be very good, I did, but my point is that this is where our viewpoints are so different. You seem, and I apologize if this isnt correct, but you seem to examine storytelling devices and the such a lot heavier than myself.


No, the pacing and the story structure were horrible, the opening action sequence was ended with exposition instead of action, and none of the characters had unque voices except for the one of the publicist which was completely cliched.

I don't mind that you have a different opinion and absolutely no reason to apologize. And I didn't even examine it that hard....I just didin't enjoy it and these things just jumped out at me at first meeting.

If you enjoyed it, that's cool! You give your opinion, I give mine and it's ok to disagree. That is what this board is about.

[bfrank]

If you didn't mean any offense then why start with insults?

"sounds elitist" is insulting and "screamed ameture." isn't?

[TCJohnson]

"sounds elitist" is insulting and "screamed ameture." isn't?

I thought the writers story came off like an ameture wrote it. Who in this thread did I insult?


Gail Simone loves Rob Liefeld's work? Does that mean everybody who says they hate Liefeld's work is insulting Gail Simone?

[bfrank]

I thought the writers story came off like an ameture wrote it. Who in this thread did I insult?


no one, just as he insulted no one when he said it sounded elitist.....

[TCJohnson]

I said the book was amaturish. He said I was elitist.

But I got it...nobody is allowed to disagree with Kid Smash. Got it, I am not allowed to state an opinion without starting a flame war. Got it, won't do that again.

[Gaz]

I said the book was amaturish. He said I was elitist.

But I got it...nobody is allowed to disagree with Kid Smash. Got it, I am not allowed to state an opinion without starting a flame war. Got it, won't do that again.
Actually, he said the review sounded elitist. Which has some merit, although he put it indelicately. If one is trained to analyse something, they'll see flaws that the layman won't. Maybe because they're not aware that they are considered flaws, maybe because they're minute, maybe because they're not looking. Now, I'm not saying that this is the case here, obviously more than one person had a problem with that structure. (Although, I think Corinna might be more right than she thought, it's not a double flashback, it's a prologue, into a flashback...) Other people didn't.

[TCJohnson]

whatever. I don't see how I can be compared to somebody who tells people why their opinion is wrong....I haven't done that. But whatever.

[bfrank]

I said the book was amaturish. He said I was elitist.

But I got it...nobody is allowed to disagree with Kid Smash. Got it, I am not allowed to state an opinion without starting a flame war. Got it, won't do that again.
did he, I missed that when he said this seems elitist....

and it seems as though, based upon your knee jerk reactions, that disagrements with Kid Smash are not the issue (nice deflection....), disagrements with the great tcjohnson seem to be frowned upon, in your world....I refer you to my first response you to in this thread...."relax"....

[TCJohnson]

did he, I missed that when he said this seems elitist....

and it seems as though, based upon your knee jerk reactions, that disagrements with Kid Smash are not the issue (nice deflection....), disagrements with the great tcjohnson seem to be frowned upon, in your world....I refer you to my first response you to in this thread...."relax"....


Have you seen me say anything to anybody who did not call me elitist? Did you seem me treat Lonesomefool with anything but the respect he has shown my opinion? Or Gaz?

I was relaxed when you said that, I was really puzzled why you did. Although I see now that you see any disagreement as somebody attacking you.

[Tommy]

I can't BELIVE people would argue with Monkey Joe!

[TCJohnson]

I can't BELIVE people would argue with Monkey Joe!

Hey now, saying we have to agree with the squirrel is elitist. :p

[Night Swordsman]

Good Comic.

For me,its up there in Thing territory(ie,i AWAIT the next issue QUICKLY!).
Wished Marvel would make more like this.

[bfrank]

Have you seen me say anything to anybody who did not call me elitist? Did you seem me treat Lonesomefool with anything but the respect he has shown my opinion? Or Gaz?

I've yet to see someone say that tcjohnson is elitist......

I was relaxed when you said that, I was really puzzled why you did. Although I see now that you see any disagreement as somebody attacking you.
wait, I'm the one flying off the handle because someone said my review seems elitist? and weren't you the one who just got their panties in a knot becasue you thought someone was attacking your opinion? No buddy, unless you think I'm a mirror, you're the one who thinks some one is attacking them...I just want to know why you are allowed to voice an opinion and he wasn't, mr. hypocrite.....

[Justin D.]

Monkey Joe (or B, C, D-List Heroes)
by me

Monkey Joe washes her hands over the whole affair
As Ch’P got taken down to the ground
By a big yellow truck
Nothing left but a smear of red and brown

The little guys of the universe
Never get cut a break
Like the Atom’s wife who turned into a killer
Because Dr. Light may have retroactively raped her

Zatanna is doing reality TV
And Green Arrow probably has caught VD

Hank Pym hit his wife,
But that’s okay
Because he can get tiny and go deep inside
To apologize.

Monkey Joe washes her hands over the whole affair
As Ch’P got taken down to the ground
By a big yellow truck
Nothing left but a smear of red and brown

That's a song I started writing a while back and never got around to finishing. What does it have to do with anything? Nothing. I just saw a picture of Monkey Joe and thought I'd put it up.

[TCJohnson]

and weren't you the one who just got their panties in a knot becasue you thought someone was attacking your opinion?

Show me where? I don't care as long as they don't start throwing personal insults. Calling somebody a elitist is an insult.


I just want to know why you are allowed to voice an opinion and he wasn't, mr. hypocrite.....

Sorry, but just because I have a different opinion than you doesn't mean I am attacking other people's opinions. I know it hurts your feelings.

But now that you have started throwing around insults (unless you count me saying a book you like is ameturish...yes, I know, it wounded you terribly) I am done. You are going to need to find someplace else to start fights.

[Gaz]

Justin? Monkey Joe's a he. Tippy Toe (Squirrel Girl's current sidekick) is female. She wears a pink bow and everything!

[kid_mash]

Jeepers :eek: I didn't expect that sort of reacshon. I wasnt trying to insult anyone and i'm sorry if that's how it came across but I stand by what I said. The statment "It is not a matter of not being able to follow the story, it just screamed ameture." does seem elitist. TCJohnson is jugeing some thing harsly not because it doesn't work but because it doesn't folow a certan set of rules.

TCJohnson you are of course entitled to your opinion and I have never sead otherwise but you should be able to back that opinion up when it's challenged just like lonesomefool did. If I say somthing you have said seems (take note of the word seems) elitist, tell me why you think that isnt so.

[bfrank]

Show me where? I don't care as long as they don't start throwing personal insults. Calling somebody a elitist is an insult.

Right after you show me where anyone said "TCJohnson is elitist"....You have not been personally insulted...




Sorry, but just because I have a different opinion than you doesn't mean I am attacking other people's opinions. I know it hurts your feelings.

That's the point we are trying to get across to you, kiddo....and I'm, sorry, you are the only person's who's feelings got hurt, in that you are the one, who's flying off the handle because some one disagrees with your opinion....again Mr. Hypocrite, why is it that your opinions can not be questioned, yet his can?

But now that you have started throwing around insults (unless you count me saying a book you like is ameturish...yes, I know, it wounded you terribly) I am done. You are going to need to find someplace else to start fights.

sorry, but you are being a hypocrite...

[bfrank]

I wasnt trying to insult anyone and i'm sorry if that's how it came across but I stand by what I said.
don't worry about it, you have a right to voice your opinion as does every one...a rational person would understand that...

[TCJohnson]

TCJohnson is jugeing some thing harsly not because it doesn't work but because it doesn't folow a certan set of rules.


But that does not true. I didn't like it because it doesn't work for me. for many reasons. The flashback in the flashback is the one people asked me about so that is the one I talked about the most.


The dialogue was very bland. It was like he was trying to make it sex in the city but didn't have any of the wit. And Jessica Drew's speach patterns and Carol Danvers speech patters were exactly the same. The only person who did have a different voice was the agent who was a cliche.

I thought the scene with Captain America was really dumb. I mean, would Captain America leave his ringer on when fighting in a dark jungle with a bunch of hydra agents? "What's that ringing?" "I don't know but fire in it's direction!"

And it is really a let down when you set up a fight scene but then finish it with exposition. That is cheap.

I thought the issue sucked. I will say again, THE ISSUE DID NOT WORK FOR ME I am sorry that bothers you so much.

If I was being elitist I would be saying my opinion has more value than yours, and I would be trying to put down your opinion, which I have not

As for backing up my opion, what about this: This is a review of the book I wrote that states my case: http://www.comixtreme.com/forums//s...ead.php?t=25570 Sorry for the length.

I already posted that and I think it backs up my opion very well. If you didn't read it, that's not my problem but don't tell me I didn't back it up.

And finally, if I said your posts seem, no offense, moronic, how would you take that exactly? (I don't think your posts are moronic, incidentally.)

[Gaz]

But that does not true. I didn't like it because it doesn't work for me. for many reasons. The flashback in the flashback is the one people asked me about so that is the one I talked about the most.


The dialogue was very bland. It was like he was trying to make it sex in the city but didn't have any of the wit. And Jessica Drew's speach patterns and Carol Danvers speech patters were exactly the same. The only person who did have a different voice was the agent who was a cliche.

The agent, I admit, is a little stereotypical.
But Jessica and Carol are friends, friends tend to have similar personalities and speak similarly. Plus, I could tell the difference, enough to think that Jessica sounded more like Jones than Drew.


I thought the scene with Captain America was really dumb. I mean, would Captain America leave his ringer on when fighting in a dark jungle with a bunch of hydra agents? "What's that ringing?" "I don't know but fire in it's direction!"
And what if Tony Stark needed the Avengers to meet immediately? No-one said it was an ordinary phone that either person had.

And it is really a let down when you set up a fight scene but then finish it with exposition. That is cheap.
Mystery, assuming you mean the crash. I didn't expect a fight, I wanted to know what crashed.

[TCJohnson]

By the way kid_smash, I dare you to find a place where I have said you weren't entitled to your opinion and where your opinion wasn't valid. Please show me one place where I have said any of that, or that you weren't allowed your opinion? I am not the one who started calling people elitist based on thier opinions, or attack people based on their opinions.

[Justin D.]

Justin? Monkey Joe's a he. Tippy Toe (Squirrel Girl's current sidekick) is female. She wears a pink bow and everything!

Damn.

This is Monkey Joe, right?

http://www.greatlakesavengers.com/mj008.jpg

And he died in GLAvengers?

Could I just say, "Monkey Joe washes his hands over the whole affair" and still have it be just as ridiculous?

[bfrank]

By the way kid_smash, I dare you to find a place where I have said you weren't entitled to your opinion and where your opinion wasn't valid. Please show me one place where I have said any of that, or that you weren't allowed your opinion? I am not the one who started calling people elitist based on thier opinions, or attack people based on their opinions.
Please show us all where kid smash said "TCJohnson is eltisit"....

We've been waiting for a while now....

[TCJohnson]

The agent, I admit, is a little stereotypical.
But Jessica and Carol are friends, friends tend to have similar personalities and speak similarly. Plus, I could tell the difference, enough to think that Jessica sounded more like Jones than Drew.


But in writng that makes for bland dialogue. Gail Simone did a similiar scene very recently, and it was much more interesting because each character had a different voice. Writing a dialogue with two characters with the same voice is very boring to me (notice I said to me. You are entitled to your opinion). If they sounded different to you, ok, cool. They really didn't sound like it to me. It came across, again, like Sex in the City without the humor.


And what if Tony Stark needed the Avengers to meet immediately? No-one said it was an ordinary phone that either person had.

Then he would put it on vibrate so that nobody else could hear it? Or if he was on a mission he would maintain radio silence? I mean, this was a shield mission he was on (with shield agents.)


Mystery, assuming you mean the crash. I didn't expect a fight, I wanted to know what crashed.

No, I mean with the Stiltman, which was the only full fight scene in there. Right before the climax of that fight they go back to Carol and Jessica talking over salad, with Carol describing the climax. I hate it when people do it like that. It felt cheap.

By the way, I thought the last five or so pages were very good, leading up to the climax. I have no problem with those. It was everything that came before the past five pages that I thought was horrible.

[TCJohnson]

Damn.

This is Monkey Joe, right?

http://www.greatlakesavengers.com/mj008.jpg

And he died in GLAvengers?

Could I just say, "Monkey Joe washes his hands over the whole affair" and still have it be just as ridiculous?

Yeah, Monkey Joe was male (notice the Joe) and replaced by Tippy Toe, who was female.

ANd washes his hands is just as good.

[Gaz]

Damn.

This is Monkey Joe, right?

http://www.greatlakesavengers.com/mj008.jpg

And he died in GLAvengers?

Could I just say, "Monkey Joe washes his hands over the whole affair" and still have it be just as ridiculous?
Yes. The only character who died in that who stayed dead. :p

[TCJohnson]

Yes. The only character who died in that who stayed dead. :p


Well....so far. What do you want to bet thre is a resurrection scene and a fight between Monkey Joe and Tippy Toe?

[kid_mash]

I already posted that and I think it backs up my opion very well. If you didn't read it, that's not my problem but don't tell me I didn't back it up.

I have read it and I think it's a good review but when I was talking about backing opinions up I was referring to your opinion that the statment " It is not a matter of not being able to follow the story, it just screamed ameture." dose not seem (damn theres that word agen) elitist. I'm assuming of course that you dont think it seems(there it is again, it's like the Wolverine of Kid_mash posts) elitist, otherwise you probably would not have gotten so mad.



And finally, if I said your posts seem, no offense, moronic, how would you take that exactly? (I don't think your posts are moronic, incidentally.)

Hmm..It's tuff to say since you never said or even implied that my posts seem, no offense, moronic, witch i'm grateful for by the way. I gess I woud try to explain why I think my posts are not, no offense, moronic and try to do it in a way that didnt make it seem(my god its a epidemic!) like I was having a hissyfit because someone pointed out somting to me that showed me in a less than flatering light.



By the way kid_smash, I dare you to find a place where I have said you weren't entitled to your opinion and where your opinion wasn't valid. Please show me one place where I have said any of that, or that you weren't allowed your opinion? I am not the one who started calling people elitist based on thier opinions, or attack people based on their opinions.

Very true. At no point did you say thai I was not entitled to my opinion. You did however say that that is what I was saying to you, witch is less true.

EDIT: P.S I think bfrank is still waiting for a anser to his question......whenever you get a mo.....no rush.

[TCJohnson]

I gess I woud try to explain why I think my posts are not, no offense, moronic and try to do it in a way that didnt make it seem(my god its a epidemic!) like I was having a hissyfit because someone pointed out somting to me that showed me in a less than flatering light.

But we shouldn't even be trying to cast each other in a less than flatering light. We were talking about the comic.

[kid_mash]

But we shouldn't even be trying to cast each other in a less than flatering light. We were talking about the comic.

Your absolutely right! Stuff like that is just silly.

But apparently because I do have an opposing opinion it threatens yours....which I guess implies that your opinion is more important than mine and I shouldn't be giving mine.

Fine. I won't give my opinion again unless it is in complete agreement with Kid Smash so he can have his only with people who agree with him.

[bfrank]

Your absolutely right! Stuff like that is just silly.
this seems to scream elitist....

[TCJohnson]

Your absolutely right! Stuff like that is just silly.

You had also said my opinions were elitist. And you also compared me to somebody who "take[s] gleefull joy in telling us why exactly we are wrong for likeing that artist."

Where have I told anybody the were wrong for their opinion?

[TCJohnson]

EDIT: P.S I think bfrank is still waiting for a anser to his question......whenever you get a mo.....no rush.

And bfrank also insults people without provication and seems to like to start fights. Sorry, not going to play his silly game.

[bfrank]

pointing out that you are being hypocritical, when you are in fact being hypocritical is not insulting you, just as saying your opinion seems eltisit is not insulting you....I'm not sure why you can't understand that....

I am sure that you can not point out where the kid called you a name or insulted you, because it has not happened....you do however, seem to have a problem with others expressing an opinion different from yours (hence: you are being a hypocrite).....

Now, I could be wrong here, but no one called you a elitist (yet), and the fact that you keep repeating it (and telling an out right lie) won't change that....

[kid_mash]

You had also said my opinions were elitist.

Nope, I seid your statement seems elitist. I'm pretty sure i've corrected you on that point before.


Where have I told anybody the were wrong for their opinion?

Nowhere, that's what you are accusing me of. I'm pretty sure i've corrected you on that point before aswell. But i'll tell you what I'll anser that question if you anser bfranks

[TCJohnson]

Nowhere, that's what you are accusing me of. I'm pretty sure i've corrected you on that point before aswell. But i'll tell you what I'll anser that question if you anser bfranks

I don't know what his question was since I am not reading his posts anymore. Why bother reading it when he is just going to insult me.

As they say, don't feed the trolls.

I was hoping to have a more civil discussion with you, but that obviously is not going to happen here I guess we are done.

[Sabrinaset]

POW!!!!!!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1a/Sup-Prime06.jpg/175px-Sup-Prime06.jpg

Following another Superboy Retcon-Punch, NO-ONE, except for Sabrinaset, third cousin to the Psycho-Pirate, remembers the previous posts!

Reality has been altered!



...so guys (says Sabrina as she walks in)...what did you think about Ms. Marvel? Just the comic...!

[bfrank]

You can't have a civil conversation with someone when you willfully misinterpert them and flat out lie about their position....but please continue to play the victim....

[Gaz]

You can't have a civil conversation with someone when you willfully misinterpert them and flat out lie about their position....but please continue to play the victim....
Yes, because you didn't gratuitously insult him WHILE claiming he wasn't being insulted. Just stop. Two people disagree. One thinks the other wasn't looking close enough, the other thinks his counterpart was nitpicking. Let's leave it at that.

[Sabrinaset]

bfranks and Gaz' posts no longer exists in the new reality. They has been retconned out of existence. In this new reality, we only post about Ms. Marvel.

[bfrank]

Following another Superboy Retcon-Punch, NO-ONE, except for Sabrinaset, third cousin to the Psycho-Pirate, remembers the previous posts!



that seems elitist! you are insulting me!



...so guys (says Sabrina as she walks in)...what did you think about Ms. Marvel?
I will not answer you until you show me where I said that you said that I said that you could have an opinion that i would say that you could not have....

[TCJohnson]

POW!!!!!!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1a/Sup-Prime06.jpg/175px-Sup-Prime06.jpg

Following another Superboy Retcon-Punch, NO-ONE, except for Sabrinaset, third cousin to the Psycho-Pirate, remembers the previous posts!

Reality has been altered!



...so guys (says Sabrina as she walks in)...what did you think about Ms. Marvel? Just the comic...!


Good idea.

I didn't like most of the comic. The writing seemed really off to me for reasons I won't get into.

I will be picking up the next two issues though. It is possible the guy just hasn't found a good voice for the comic yet.

[Gaz]

that seems elitist! you are insulting me!



I will not answer you until you show me where I said that you said that I said that you could have an opinion that i would say that you could not have....
You never did do that last part... Strange.

And, moving on, from stuff that didn't happen, not anymore, no ma'am... I liked it. It's an interesting concept, what with her trying to live up to the potential she had in HoM. Instead of the cliched "Woe is me, I suck but I didn't there..." whine-fest that it could've been.

[bfrank]

Yes, because you didn't gratuitously insult him WHILE claiming he wasn't being insulted.
No, you right, I didn't...what I did do was tell him he was being ahypocrite
Two people disagree. One thinks the other wasn't looking close enough, the other thinks his counterpart was nitpicking. Let's leave it at that.
I disagree. Two people are disagreeing yes, however, one is making up facts so that he can feel insulted, unless of course, you (or anyone for that matter) can show me where the kidd said "Tcjohnson is elitist"....

[Gaz]

No, you right, I didn't...what I did do was tell him he was being ahypocrite

I disagree. Two people are disagreeing yes, however, one is making up facts so that he can feel insulted, unless of course, you (or anyone for that matter) can show me where the kidd said "Tcjohnson is elitist"....
Not making up. Misinterpreting, or reading too much in, perhaps, but the wording is there and it's conceivable where that offence could come from.
And hypocrisy would require him saying that you're not allowed to disagree, which you haven't shown, and I can't see.

[bfrank]

Not making up. Misinterpreting, or reading too much in, perhaps, but the wording is there and it's conceivable where that offence could come from.

No, making up, especially when the author of said post not only never said that anyone was eltist, but then went back and explained himself....
And hypocrisy would require him saying that you're not allowed to disagree, which you haven't shown, and I can't see.
not me....kid_mash however, that's another story....

[TCJohnson]

Not making up. Misinterpreting, or reading too much in, perhaps, but the wording is there and it's conceivable where that offence could come from.
And hypocrisy would require him saying that you're not allowed to disagree, which you haven't shown, and I can't see.


Thank you Gaz, this is a misunderstanding that got out of hand.

honestly, I wasn't that mad with Kid_Smash, just really annoyed until it esculated. But you are absolutely right.

And I apologize to everybody for letting it esculate.

Now...retcon this out of existence please.

[Sabrinaset]

No problem!


POW!!!!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1a/Sup-Prime06.jpg/175px-Sup-Prime06.jpg

[kid_mash]

It's an interesting concept, what with her trying to live up to the potential she had in HoM. Instead of the cliched "Woe is me, I suck but I didn't there..." whine-fest that it could've been.

That's my thinking too. While No.1 didnt do it for me i'm still interested enough to pick up the next few and see where it goes. Those Cho covers are incentive enough :D

[TCJohnson]

Actually, I admit I love the Brood. Yeah, they are alien rip offs but they are cool ones. That is the biggest reason I will be picking up next issue.

[bfrank]

That's my thinking too. While No.1 didnt do it for me i'm still interested enough to pick up the next few and see where it goes. Those Cho covers are incentive enough :D

This cover wasn't working for me:

http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0306/MSMARV001_BURST_sm.jpg


It seems off to me....but the cover to number to looks great!

[Sabrinaset]

By the way...I read the comic and I thought, well, it's okay...not great, but pretty good. I liked the cover! I'll give it a shot. I mean, I gave the Waid LSH quite awhile before I gave up, Ms. Marvel gets the same love.

Besides, I have a soft spot in my heart for Stilt-Man. Such a goofy power. Dunno why I like him, I just do.

[lonesomefool]

Yeah, though I dont know if poor stilt-man will be able to walk for awhile after what happened to him in this comic ;)

[Night Swordsman]

Actually, I admit I love the Brood. Yeah, they are alien rip offs but they are cool ones. That is the biggest reason I will be picking up next issue.

I too like the Brood,and they were good villans,especially in the mid 80s.
Also,you should be aware,they are also in this weeks issue of Incredible Hulk(#93,part two of Planet Hulk).

Thank you all,for participating in Brood Awareness Week.

[stealthwise]

Dammit you guys.

DAMMIT!

When will you learn? You can't just go and place gender characteristics onto anthropomorphized animals anymore!

Tippy Toe, Monkey Joe, Piglet and Minnie Mouse all deserve the right to gender-self-determination!

[Citizen V]

I thought it was rather good,dont forget its a first issue.Character plot needs to be established before any real action can begin.