Am I the only one disgusted...

[Silvermane]

by the portrayals of E-2 Superman, Superboy Prime and Alex Luthor in Infinite Crisis? I was really anticipating this series, but with each issue, my interest wanes and I think it is the lack of respect being shown to these characters. The only reason that the current DCU exists is because these three, along with others, sacrificed and fought courageously against impossible odds to save existence itself. And their reward was an eternity in some antiseptic bubble where they could do nothing but watch life go on without them. These people lost family, friends and whole worlds! It is understandable to me why they may be pissed or upset or sad or grief stricken. But what I hear on these boards is how they are just whiny and need to have their butts kicked. Worse than that is the treatment given these characters by the architects of Infinite Crisis.

Sure, the characters of the story may not know the real history and motivations of E-2 Superman, Superboy Prime and Alex Luthor, but the writers do. Where is the love? Where is the heroism that we all know resides inside SBP and Alex Luthor. I don't want to hear that SBP is just a whiny brat who is infatuated with his cape (because he was never that before IC #4). What he was was a young boy, suddenly blessed with great power who was quickly thrust into a war for the fate of the universe and he handled himself like a hero, even at the cost of his own parents and his own world. The same can be said of Alex Luthor. Someone once said that every character is someone's favorite character. To me, that means that you don't go crapping on one character (SBP or E-2 Superman) to make the other character (Superboy or Superman) look better.

I'm not saying that you can never make a character into a villain. All I'm saying is that if you have to completely ignore what came before and write the character completely out of character to do it, then it will ring hollow and seem forced. And that is what I get out of Infinite Crisis. It is a crisis that seems as much manufactured by DC editorial as it is by SBP and Alex Luthor. The stakes just don't seem that high and the suspense is not that great. I feel like someone's putting one over on us almost. It's as if the writer said "I need someone for the heroes to beat up in issue 6 or 7. But it has to be someone powerful, Superman powerful. Hey, these characters aren't being used. I will just make them say and do things that go completely against their previous incarnations so that they can be the villains of the piece."

I was happy to hear that DC was honoring its past by bringing these characters out of the mothballs, even if I knew they wouldn't be sticking around. But if this is all they were going to be used for, to advance an artificial crisis plot and to be stripped of their heroism, then I would rather that DC had just left them alone with the respect they had earned.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

[Kid Kamikaze10]

by the portrayals of E-2 Superman, Superboy Prime and Alex Luthor in Infinite Crisis? I was really anticipating this series, but with each issue, my interest wanes and I think it is the lack of respect being shown to these characters. The only reason that the current DCU exists is because these three, along with others, sacrificed and fought courageously against impossible odds to save existence itself. And their reward was an eternity in some antiseptic bubble where they could do nothing but watch life go on without them. These people lost family, friends and whole worlds! It is understandable to me why they may be pissed or upset or sad or grief stricken. But what I hear on these boards is how they are just whiny and need to have their butts kicked. Worse than that is the treatment given these characters by the architects of Infinite Crisis.

Sure, the characters of the story may not know the real history and motivations of E-2 Superman, Superboy Prime and Alex Luthor, but the writers do. Where is the love? Where is the heroism that we all know resides inside SBP and Alex Luthor. I don't want to hear that SBP is just a whiny brat who is infatuated with his cape (because he was never that before IC #4). What he was was a young boy, suddenly blessed with great power who was quickly thrust into a war for the fate of the universe and he handled himself like a hero, even at the cost of his own parents and his own world. The same can be said of Alex Luthor. Someone once said that every character is someone's favorite character. To me, that means that you don't go crapping on one character (SBP or E-2 Superman) to make the other character (Superboy or Superman) look better.

I'm not saying that you can never make a character into a villain. All I'm saying is that if you have to completely ignore what came before and write the character completely out of character to do it, then it will ring hollow and seem forced. And that is what I get out of Infinite Crisis. It is a crisis that seems as much manufactured by DC editorial as it is by SBP and Alex Luthor. The stakes just don't seem that high and the suspense is not that great. I feel like someone's putting one over on us almost. It's as if the writer said "I need someone for the heroes to beat up in issue 6 or 7. But it has to be someone powerful, Superman powerful. Hey, these characters aren't being used. I will just make them say and do things that go completely against their previous incarnations so that they can be the villains of the piece."

I was happy to hear that DC was honoring its past by bringing these characters out of the mothballs, even if I knew they wouldn't be sticking around. But if this is all they were going to be used for, to advance an artificial crisis plot and to be stripped of their heroism, then I would rather that DC had just left them alone with the respect they had earned.

Am I the only one who feels this way?


Read the IC Secret Files special. There the creator of COIE himself explains the decline of Alex and SBP.

E-2 Supes isn't evil, he was manipulated by Alex. Now he's back as a "good guy".

And seriously, Alex was made in COIE, and SBP was only in one other story before COIE. They didn't have much of a history.

[Silvermane]

Read the IC Secret Files special. There the creator of COIE himself explains the decline of Alex and SBP.

E-2 Supes isn't evil, he was manipulated by Alex. Now he's back as a "good guy".

And seriously, Alex was made in COIE, and SBP was only in one other story before COIE. They didn't have much of a history.

I read it, and it was the best thing to come out of IC so far, IMHO. But just because you give a reason for Hal Jordan to go all Parallax, that doesn't mean it was any less a disrespectful bastardization of the character. If you can't think of anything to do with a character other than completely change him, then just leave that character alone and create a new one.

And they didn't have much history is right ... except that time they sacrificed themselves to save the universe. I mean, if you do that, how much more history do you need? Twenty more years of pulling kittens out of trees? No, I think that saving the universe at your own expense pretty much covers what kind of character you have.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I read it, and it was the best thing to come out of IC so far, IMHO. But just because you give a reason for Hal Jordan to go all Parallax, that doesn't mean it was any less a disrespectful bastardization of the character. If you can't think of anything to do with a character other than completely change him, then just leave that character alone and create a new one.

And they didn't have much history is right ... except that time they sacrificed themselves to save the universe. I mean, if you do that, how much more history do you need? Twenty more years of pulling kittens out of trees? No, I think that saving the universe at your own expense pretty much covers what kind of character you have.

No, it doesn't, except for E-2 Supes. Yeah, they saved the universe and such, but Alex and SBP sacrificed their homeland and parents for it. I don't believe that this is a 180 flip on Alex and SBP, at all. Heck, everybody wanted the universe saved, even badguys. It was a case of "bigger fishes to fry".

When you think about it, they still have their core personality (well not exactly SBP right now, but earlier), but the thing is that they want a perfect earth. They think their the good guys.

[Knightoftomorrow]

When you think about it, they still have their core personality (well not exactly SBP right now, but earlier), but the thing is that they want a perfect earth. They think their the good guys.

Exactly. Everything that these characters are doing revolves around that idea. They believe they are doing the right thing. They believe they are the heroes. I wouldn't say anyone is crapping on them. Besides, I imagine sitting in a bubble watching stuff happen and knowing you can't do anything to help might effect one's attitude.

[Silvermane]

Exactly. Everything that these characters are doing revolves around that idea. They believe they are doing the right thing. They believe they are the heroes. I wouldn't say anyone is crapping on them. Besides, I imagine sitting in a bubble watching stuff happen and knowing you can't do anything to help might effect one's attitude.

That's my whole point. I think that someone in the story has to acknowledge that or the whole thing just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. There should be some acknowlegdement of the fact that these were heroes. Whatever they are now, they deserve more than just being "taken down" like they were the Legion of Doom or something.

Look at the expressions on Alex Luthor's face throughout the Secret Files issue. He looks like a cartoonish villain twirling his moustache. Why? SBP is jonesing to go beat up Superboy? Why? He's a teenager. He's not five years old. It just doesn't ring true for me.

Personally, I think that Alex and SBP are right to an extent. If my universe and planet were wiped out by a monster and replaced with a world full of comic book characters or something, I would do everything in my power to set things right. So would you. So would DCU Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Nightwing, Teen Titans, etc. They wouldn't be evil for doing so. They would be the good guys saving us all. Now I'm not saying that I don't understand the perspective of the DCU heroes who don't remember the crisis. All they see is a couple of extra-dimensional villains trying to wipe out their world and they should, of course, try to stop them. But the writers have the metatextual advantage of seeing the whole board. They know the truth. I think that for the story to be successful, someone has to speak for Alex and SBP. Someone has to acknowledge the validity of their position as well.

Otherwise, we end up with what we've got: a generic good guys versus bad guys story that does very little to speak to what it means to be a hero. We end up with two complex characters being written like they are Cobra Commander and Destro.

And I'm not talking about the Secret Files issue which, as I've said, is the best IC book so far. I'm talking about the main story.

[Silvermane]

No, it doesn't, except for E-2 Supes. Yeah, they saved the universe and such, but Alex and SBP sacrificed their homeland and parents for it. I don't believe that this is a 180 flip on Alex and SBP, at all. Heck, everybody wanted the universe saved, even badguys. It was a case of "bigger fishes to fry".

Good point, but I think it is unfair to equate them to the bad guys. At the end of the conflict, do you really see Sinestro or Lex Luthor agreeing to take themselves out of play and go into self-imposed exile for the good of the universe? I don't. When I talk about the sacrifice that defines them as heroes, I'm not just talking about the fight against the A-M. I'm talking about what they did after as well. It's easy to be cynical about it, but even in the worst of circumstances, even when sacrifice of oneself for the good of the many is the only logical option, it still takes a hero to rise above the fear and grief and bite the bullet and do it.

These were heroes and nothing can convince me otherwise. As heroes, I just think they deserve a better epitaph.

[Maleficentogre]

their portrayals are right to me. A bunch of poozer's from a simpler time not being able to understand the fact that things change and even if they were here things wouldn't be any better and proably worse because of it. Their a warped group of kidnappers and murderers. They have no sense of reality and deserve the beatdown coming their way. SBP is a punk teenager that just wants to be something he's not. Alex is an evil jerk plotting destrcution. he was manipulative and cocky in COIE. Kal-L is just dumb as a brick and can't look at things for himself he'll just blindly follow anything.

[ShaggyB]

So basically, silvermane, you feel that the ignoring of / changing of a characters past is wrong?

Retcons = bad, right?

other questions, Superboy prime.... what story was he in before COIE?

and side note Alex never gave up his world in COIE, he was blast out of that reality by his father and thus saved from the anti-matter wall. He fought to save reality not his reality, it was gone long before he could fight back.

[Silvermane]

So basically, silvermane, you feel that the ignoring of / changing of a characters past is wrong?

Retcons = bad, right?

other questions, Superboy prime.... what story was he in before COIE?

and side note Alex never gave up his world in COIE, he was blast out of that reality by his father and thus saved from the anti-matter wall. He fought to save reality not his reality, it was gone long before he could fight back.

I didn't say anything against changing a character's past. I argue against changing a character himself to the point that he is unrecognizable from where you started. You can have a retcon without changing the whole character fundamentally. They are not the same thing. Let me ask you a question. How much of Batman can you change before he is no longer Batman, but a completely new character with the same name? What if I retconned him to be junkie, a child abuser, a woman, from another planet, a racist, a crybaby? Is he still Batman? No. So don't pretend that every change just adds layers to a character. Some of them destroy the character. All I'm saying is that if a story calls for a junkie, racist, crybaby, child abusing woman from another planet, create a junkie, racist, crybaby, child abusing woman from another planet. Don't just shoehorn an existing character into that role.

And I don't know if you were implying that the creation of SBP was a retcon or not, but it isn't. That would be like saying that every time a new hero or villain turned up it was a retcon. Or, for my fellow children of the 80s, every time a smurf turned up that wasn't in last week's episode, there was a retcon.

I don't believe that I ever said Alex sacrificed his own world. If I did, then I misspoke. But that just further illustrates my point. He fought to save all worlds, not his own. That's altruism no matter how you look at it. He was a hero.

[Yoda]

I don't have a problem with it because before Secret Files i thought there was a way to logically progress the characters to this point. And in Secret Files they explained to progression fairly well. Especially Superboy-Prime, Alex twisted that poor kid into becoming the mess we see in IC #4.

[Silvermane]

their portrayals are right to me. A bunch of poozer's from a simpler time not being able to understand the fact that things change and even if they were here things wouldn't be any better and proably worse because of it. Their a warped group of kidnappers and murderers. They have no sense of reality and deserve the beatdown coming their way. SBP is a punk teenager that just wants to be something he's not. Alex is an evil jerk plotting destrcution. he was manipulative and cocky in COIE. Kal-L is just dumb as a brick and can't look at things for himself he'll just blindly follow anything.

Oh. So, there is nothing to be learned by the heroes of the current DCU from those that came before? Then why are we having this story at all? Just so they can beat up the old timers and everything goes back to how it was before? Seems like kind of a waste of a major crossover event to me.

See, I think the current Superboy is just a "too kewl" punk created to be the whiny teenager ("don't call me Superboy! Stop it!) that people are complaining SBP is. From his leather jacket and shades to his t-shirt and jeans for a costume, Superboy just strikes me as a punk character who could disappear forever and it wouldn't bother me a bit. A clone, for God's sake! I could say the same for the current Superman who, outside of ASS, hasn't done anything Superman-like in a very long time.

We could go around like this all day. I guess it just depends on your perspective. My only point is that they went out like heroes and stayed that way for twenty years. It would have been better to leave them alone than to change them into something else.

Then again, I also wish Jordan would not have come back with the Wizards and I think Elway did it exactly right. :D

[Maleficentogre]

at least connor isn't a blind murdering idiot. and him being a clone doesn't make him any less valuable a character. that's hogwash.

[Silvermane]

at least connor isn't a blind murdering idiot.

At least SBP didn't get the cloned snot beat out of his cloned butt in front of the whole non-cloned world. See we can do this all day. :D

and him being a clone doesn't make him any less valuable a character. that's hogwash.

Yes it does. No it isn't. :D

[Calybos]

I'm not too worried about the treatment of Superboy Prime, since I haven't seen much of him.

But having Alex Luthor turn bad simply "because he's a Luthor"? That's basically a lame excuse.

And Superman of Earth-2? Well, he's right. That's part of his established character: by definition, he's ALWAYS right. He's the essence of heroism, period. Turning him into a brainless dupe who "can't deal with reality" is the sort of whiny crap I'd expect from posturing teenage fanfic authors, not skilled comics professionals.

Here's a quick tip, folks: If Earth-2 Superman doesn't like your reality, it's probably because your reality truly is bad. If he thinks your world is wrong, IT IS. And if he's going to make things better, you either help him or get out of his way. Because he's freakin' Kal-L, fer pity's sake.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I'm not too worried about the treatment of Superboy Prime, since I haven't seen much of him.

But having Alex Luthor turn bad simply "because he's a Luthor"? That's basically a lame excuse.

And Superman of Earth-2? Well, he's right. That's part of his established character: by definition, he's ALWAYS right. He's the essence of heroism, period. Turning him into a brainless dupe who "can't deal with reality" is the sort of whiny crap I'd expect from posturing teenage fanfic authors, not skilled comics professionals.

Here's a quick tip, folks: If Earth-2 Superman doesn't like your reality, it's probably because your reality truly is bad. If he thinks your world is wrong, IT IS. And if he's going to make things better, you either help him or get out of his way. Because he's freakin' Kal-L, fer pity's sake.

Remember, Alex does have some anti-matter in him. Now if that makes a difference, I don't know, but the point is that he has some of the Anti-Monitor's energy, so it could have corrupted him a bit.


That, and being a Luthor.
:p

[ShaggyB]

I didn't say anything against changing a character's past. I argue against changing a character himself to the point that he is unrecognizable from where you started. You can have a retcon without changing the whole character fundamentally. They are not the same thing. Let me ask you a question. How much of Batman can you change before he is no longer Batman, but a completely new character with the same name? What if I retconned him to be junkie, a child abuser, a woman, from another planet, a racist, a crybaby? Is he still Batman? No. So don't pretend that every change just adds layers to a character. Some of them destroy the character. All I'm saying is that if a story calls for a junkie, racist, crybaby, child abusing woman from another planet, create a junkie, racist, crybaby, child abusing woman from another planet. Don't just shoehorn an existing character into that role.

And I don't know if you were implying that the creation of SBP was a retcon or not, but it isn't. That would be like saying that every time a new hero or villain turned up it was a retcon. Or, for my fellow children of the 80s, every time a smurf turned up that wasn't in last week's episode, there was a retcon.

I don't believe that I ever said Alex sacrificed his own world. If I did, then I misspoke. But that just further illustrates my point. He fought to save all worlds, not his own. That's altruism no matter how you look at it. He was a hero.


no no, I am agree'n with you to a point. And I agree, changing a character at his fundamental core, ruins a character. haha smurfs, right after the snorks every afternoon.

Alex went bad in the secret files thing, but you are correct in seeing him as a hero before, hopefully the change is explained to all through the tale in secret file but i think that might have been needed in /or before IC got too deep, like say in between issue 1 & 2.

and am seriously asking about Prime, for me back in the 80s he just appeared, i dont know where he came from before i read him in COIE. Im asking if you know please share the story, I want to know.

[Silvermane]

no no, I am agree'n with you to a point. And I agree, changing a character at his fundamental core, ruins a character. haha smurfs, right after the snorks every afternoon.

Alex went bad in the secret files thing, but you are correct in seeing him as a hero before, hopefully the change is explained to all through the tale in secret file but i think that might have been needed in /or before IC got too deep, like say in between issue 1 & 2.

and am seriously asking about Prime, for me back in the 80s he just appeared, i dont know where he came from before i read him in COIE. Im asking if you know please share the story, I want to know.

I LOVE the Snorks! Of course, that probably says something about me that I wish it hadn't. :D

I do think you are right that the Secret Files went a long way toward telling us what we needed to know. I agree that it should have happened much sooner in the storyline so that some of us didn't feel like we got whiplash from the 180 turn.

SBP, unless I am mistaken, first showed up in a DC Comics Presents right before the COIE started. If you go over to geoffjohns.com, someone has created a thread with a link to the actual full story scan of his origin as well as his first adventure with E-1 Supes. I would post it here, but I don't know how.

p.s.

I know you don't remember the Shirt Tales and the Cowboys of Moo Mesa, do you? Huh? Do ya?

[Silvermane]

If Earth-2 Superman doesn't like your reality, it's probably because your reality truly is bad. If he thinks your world is wrong, IT IS. And if he's going to make things better, you either help him or get out of his way. Because he's freakin' Kal-L, fer pity's sake.

Dude, I love that line!

[ShaggyB]

I agree that it should have happened much sooner in the storyline so that some of us didn't feel like we got whiplash from the 180 turn.


Yeah really, Its like ok they broke out to set things right.... wait why are they destroying reality....


SBP, unless I am mistaken, first showed up in a DC Comics Presents right before the COIE started. If you go over to geoffjohns.com, someone has created a thread with a link to the actual full story scan of his origin as well as his first adventure with E-1 Supes. I would post it here, but I don't know how.

p.s.

I know you don't remember the Shirt Tales and the Cowboys of Moo Mesa, do you? Huh? Do ya?

thanks ill check it out. And yes i do. Anyone old enough to remember Captain N? with his nintendo belt and light zapper gun? Oh yeah and dont forget Mask.

[stealthwise]

I don't get all the hubbub. IC Secret Files addresses the personality changes in Alex and SBP, and the event isn't even over yet. There's no way to know how deep Anti-Monitor may be involved, or exactly what Alex and SBP will end up doing in the finale.

[trickster]

And Superman of Earth-2? Well, he's right. That's part of his established character: by definition, he's ALWAYS right.
Here's a quick tip, folks: If Earth-2 Superman doesn't like your reality, it's probably because your reality truly is bad. If he thinks your world is wrong, IT IS. And if he's going to make things better, you either help him or get out of his way. Because he's freakin' Kal-L, fer pity's sake.

Well, he is an old timer. And for every point he makes, there is an opposite point to be made. And since he was ready to wipe out a planet because it didn't exactly conform to his ideas, doesn't make him a hero, more like a Muslim fanatic.


But having Alex Luthor turn bad simply "because he's a Luthor"? That's basically a lame excuse.

If that's all you can understand. He wasn't exactly a good guy. He was a kid with no childhood who was forced to do good, without being able to choose what was best for himself.

[Buried Alien]

I agree that Kal-L has been mischaracterized in INFINITE CRISIS. Yes, Lois is important to him, but he would never sacrifice innocent lives to save her. Nor would he be self-righteous or judgmental. That's not the Kal-L I remember.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Choppa]

Why do you call Hal Jordon turning into Parallex a bastardization of the character? He didn't do some kind of 180 there, it was right in line with his character.

[ShaggyB]

Why do you call Hal Jordon turning into Parallex a bastardization of the character? He didn't do some kind of 180 there, it was right in line with his character.

that is a good point, Hal tended to push the line alot, paralax was a jealous rage step into bad-guy-ness. but who called him a bastardization?

[Choppa]

that is a good point, Hal tended to push the line alot, paralax was a jealous rage step into bad-guy-ness. but who called him a bastardization?

I read it, and it was the best thing to come out of IC so far, IMHO. But just because you give a reason for Hal Jordan to go all Parallax, that doesn't mean it was any less a disrespectful bastardization of the character. If you can't think of anything to do with a character other than completely change him, then just leave that character alone and create a new one.

It was on the first page.

[Babylon23]

I see no problem with the Superboy characterisation. I think the Secret Files and the battle in issue 4 explained a lot about his motivations. I know that I'd probably lose it a little if I were in his situation.

I can also understand the characterisation of E-2 Superman. I don't see a problem with how this is being handled.

Alex in not as sure about. His motivation and logic were fleshed out a little in the Secret Files, but not enough to fully justify his actions for my tastes.

However, Johns has said that issue 6 will tie the series together, so I'm going to reserve my comments until the series is completed.

[glennsim]

I came away from the Secret Files feeling like Alex and SBP weren't bad people, it's just that they ended up in this bad place that has driven them a little crazy and desperate to change things.

Which is ironic since they fail to realize that any shortcomings Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman etc. may have is a result of them ending up in a bad place (the "dark" post-Crisis universe).

[The Adventurer]

Honestly better for a character to change and grow rather then stick to some status quo forever. That's the one thing many of the big league DCU characters lack, they can't change, not really. Because they are Iconic.

So you need lesser heroes, like Alex Luthor, Super-Boy Prime, Blue Beetle, etc...to pick up the slack and be characters that can actualy develop as unique characters in the DCU. So it works out great. Alex and Prime changing as they have makes total sense and sets up a great epic story. I have no complaints.

[trickster]

I came away from the Secret Files feeling like Alex and SBP weren't bad people, it's just that they ended up in this bad place that has driven them a little crazy and desperate to change things.

Which is ironic since they fail to realize that any shortcomings Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman etc. may have is a result of them ending up in a bad place (the "dark" post-Crisis universe).

Um... no. People are always trying to blame things like crime, drug abuse, violence on external factors. This is human nature. And to be really honest, this is just the way it should be. Human nature doesn't work that way, it doesn't like and it rebels against harp-playing-paradise-style happiness. Orwell had a piece written about this.

And the story is actually very deep: even Alex Luthor says that it would have been better to choose hell because it is actually alive. That paradise of theirs is dead.


Honestly better for a character to change and grow rather then stick to some status quo forever. That's the one thing many of the big league DCU characters lack, they can't change, not really. Because they are Iconic.

So you need lesser heroes, like Alex Luthor, Super-Boy Prime, Blue Beetle, etc...to pick up the slack and be characters that can actualy develop as unique characters in the DCU. So it works out great. Alex and Prime changing as they have makes total sense and sets up a great epic story. I have no complaints.

You've hit the nail on the head here. Once the crossover of the moment is over, Superman will go back to being the same old boring character that last inspired people when he was dead.

[Citizen V]

I was happy to hear that DC was honoring its past by bringing these characters out of the mothballs, even if I knew they wouldn't be sticking around. But if this is all they were going to be used for, to advance an artificial crisis plot and to be stripped of their heroism, then I would rather that DC had just left them alone with the respect they had earned.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

Your not,i too..sort of feel the same way.Especially after i read IC No.3,i thought the Pre-Crisis Superman,Luthor and Prime would come out and save the DCU one last time from a super calamity.

I was sort of hoping that the Pre-Crisis Superman would actually come back to active duty in some form.

But to see everything like this...even with how things are.Luthor,Prime and Superman..im a little torn at how they are portrayed.

[glennsim]

Um... no. People are always trying to blame things like crime, drug abuse, violence on external factors.

Like yellow fear monsters.