The REAL Punisher is back! WAR JOURNAL returns [Archive]

Ivan Isaacs

03-19-2006, 05:36 AM

I hope you're not talking about the avenging angel with the magic trench coat.

The Zombisher? Hell no! GAAH! But thanks for reminding me. ;)

With the real Punisher I mean the Punisher that is tied to continuity, that is teaming-up with other heroes and is a little bit more then repeating stories of "Generic Killing-machine running around".
It's not that Ennis' MAX Punisher is badly written but for me it got pretty redundant basically reading the same stories over and over again and paying mucho dinero for 6 issues that could've been told in 2 (Kitchen Irish).
So I dropped it after "Up is down..." and spent my money on stuff like "Daredevil Vs. Punisher" that I liked much more.

Starkicker

03-19-2006, 07:27 AM

I'm glad the Punisher will get appearances that are tied to the rest of the Marvel U. But I'm not sure we need another series to be the "super hero" version of the Punisher. The set up seems more like a mini series or a story that could be told within another ongoing series.

lonesomefool

03-19-2006, 07:27 AM

See, I'm in the opposite corner as I feel the Punisher works best when he is outside the hero universe personally. That said I might give this a couple issues, Fraction has written some very good independent comics and I'm interested how he will translate to a mainstream comic.

lonesomefool

03-19-2006, 07:43 AM

The thing I worry about is if Punisher has enough selling power for TWO monthly books. During the 90's he had it, but I wonder if he can still sell two books a month.

Tony Starkz

03-19-2006, 08:10 AM

Crash-Man

03-19-2006, 08:20 AM

Neolucifer

03-19-2006, 10:12 AM

Hell yes! Finally a regular Punisher book I can read again! That is really good news!

Seconded . Not bashing the Ennis version , but the Punsiher taken out of the MU , pretty much become one of those genric vigilante or noir , and gritty shows and books .
While i sure dont want stupid stuff like Punisher taking on Dr Doom and Magneto , i do want to see him against interract with the heroes and villains .
Hell i even think that they missed a great oportunity to bring him back , with HoM and Post HoM .
Frank should have been taking the great chance , given by the M day , to hunt down a few Depowered villains .
Though , maybe that kind of story will be used in the future ongoing .

Anyway give me nameless mass killing of hydra and AIM agent anyday , over nameless mafioso thugs .

Steffen

03-19-2006, 11:20 AM

Well, as a HUGE Punisher fan, I'll be picking this up. But I'm not certain I like the idea of him taking on costumed super-villains - I just hope they're not heading down the 90s road all over again. The first series (drawn by Janson, and I'm glad to see Fraction will be acknowledging it) started based on the same premise - Frank takes on street-level criminals, with minimal appearances by other costumed characters. We all know what happened afterwards. But for me, Ennis's take on the character is the best.

Hell, now I have to find more $ to shell out for 3 great new titles coming up: War Journal, Moon Knight & Ghost Rider.

lonewolf23k

03-19-2006, 11:29 AM

Alot of fans who don't read the MAX books will definitely pick this up,including myself.Punisher hasn't had that "superhero" vibe in years and it's about damn time someone injected it back into the character.I'd rather see big Pun taking down super-villains than gangsters,rapists,and killers.

Same here.. I got bored with Ennis' Punisher after the first two 12-issue storylines. This sound like something I might find more interesting.

The Master Meglomaniac

03-19-2006, 11:39 AM

Seconded . Not bashing the Ennis version , but the Punsiher taken out of the MU , pretty much become one of those genric vigilante or noir , and gritty shows and books .
While i sure dont want stupid stuff like Punisher taking on Dr Doom and Magneto , i do want to see him against interract with the heroes and villains .
Hell i even think that they missed a great oportunity to bring him back , with HoM and Post HoM .
Frank should have been taking the great chance , given by the M day , to hunt down a few Depowered villains .
Though , maybe that kind of story will be used in the future ongoing .

Anyway give me nameless mass killing of hydra and AIM agent anyday , over nameless mafioso thugs .

Punisher works best killing mobsters and rapists, but him against super villains and he becomes another cliched 90s anti hero, who can't kill anyone with a character shield. Punisher will look like a total loser if he can't kill any of his enemies.

The Master Meglomaniac

03-19-2006, 11:44 AM

Same here.. I got bored with Ennis' Punisher after the first two 12-issue storylines. This sound like something I might find more interesting.

I don't see how putting Punsiher against some super villains he is not allowed kill isn't interesting, makes him seem like a another useless 90s anti hero, talks tough, but doesn't get kill anyone besides really lame villains. Punisher blowing away the Matador isn't that interesting, it just makes me feel sorry for the Matador.

Neolucifer

03-19-2006, 12:17 PM

NathanielEssex

03-19-2006, 12:32 PM

While the Ennis series was damn good, it did start to get boring during the Up is Down arc. And Kitchen Irish wasn't that good. But "Mother Russia" is awesome, and "The Slavers" was really good. It's too early to tell whether or not "Barracuda" will be any good, but I hope it is.

The only problem I have with Punisher being in the 616 is that there are too many good villains that inept writers are going to have him waste, because they don't "feel like" doing anything with them. For example, (because the two have a history), they'd better not have him kill Nitro. If there's a way the Punisher could kill him that is. :evilangry

Edit: I posted without reading the article, like some ignoramus. They are still going to publish Ennis' Punisher, so I apologize.

NathanielEssex

03-19-2006, 12:33 PM

Oh, yeah. If they're newly created villains, or the really, really lame ones, then I wouldn't mind them becoming cannon fodder. ;)

Crash-Man

03-19-2006, 01:08 PM

Reading this thread, I'm beginning to wonder if people read Punisher primarily for the quality of the storytelling, or for the spectacle of who he kills.

Ennis' Punisher works because he writes each character, even the obviously doomed ones, uniquely and well. And for the most part, his stories are deep, and deal with a diverse range of issues. Frank's invulnerability aside, I enjoy the realism of the series, and I honestly don't see much of a similarity between Ennis' work and vigilante movies.

I get the idea from some of these comments that it's more important to see Punisher blasting away (like in that pic) third-rate villains, *almost* killing second-rate villains, and playing My Justice/Your Justice with superheroes. There's a ton of narrative and characterization going on between each gunfight that some of you may be missing.

Ennis wrote a good story with Daredevil in the Welcome Back Frank arc that did a good job of explaining why a character like Punisher belongs away from the superhero limelight.

Neolucifer

03-19-2006, 01:25 PM

i dunno what do you expect us to say . You mentioned your gripes about setting him up in the MU ... i voiced mine about him taken away from it , and even mentioned that i like a mix of both the mobster and regular marvel world .
And now you're kinda categorizing us , by telling us that we dont care about the story and chracter depth and want to see mindless brawl about super powered folks ...
Please... his latest forray into regular MU ,in the mini with bullseye and Daredevil are nothing to be ashamed of , and devoid of depth ... so imo its only snobism and disdain toward the super hero world .
Outside of the R rating stuff and tone , there is pretty much nothing that couldnt make it through the MU .

Anyway at the very least , some people werent happy with the character kidnapped so others could indulge their snobism toward powered people , and now will be , with a book that aim to please them .
I again feel that there is more to the Punisher ,and should be more to the Punisher than its realist vigilante aspect .
Actually its quie fine that people get a MU-less Punisher , and another one .. actually it should have been like that from the start .

Gargus

03-19-2006, 01:40 PM

Ill be glad to have something other than ennis's version of the punisher.

I liked it at first but he has turned the punisher into a soulless and emotionless killing machine that bores me to tears. All his punisher does is walk around with a scowl on his face while mowing down mob guys by the dozens and hardly ever talks or think really. He is just a robot. I liked the punisher that had friends and went other places than just new york, he was more like a real person.

And I dont like ennis's shock values either. They dont bother me but to keep his books going he has to outdo himself with shocking content that just dumbs down the whole book. Seeing the F word 12 times per page doesnt add to the book any, or that crap where that little bog guy had a flash back of commiting incest with his aunt and while he was doing her she was yelling "F%@$ AUNTY MO!" and it went on for like 14 panels, it was a waste of the punisher. The comic is just a excuse for violence, there is nothing of what the punisher is anymore. It used to have decent art (till it hit the 90's issues), good stories, interesting charcters, different parts of the world and so on. Now they just use new york aside from like 2 arcs and its all that bullcrud darkly draw "gritty" urban realistic style that adds nothing. Hell I liked the marvel edge version of the punisher more than I do now, but everything pre-war zone is pure gold.

I just get tired of him killing off the same goons over and over and over again only to do it again. The people he goes after have the same lame stories and youd never heard of, they are just the medium for ennis to try and top his last violent act and the punisher is just his tool for doing. Id swear he doesnt even really like the punisher, he just likes the idea of the punisher.

I wish they would cancel the max punisher line and cancel ennis and start over with this new series and let that be that.

And just for added measure I hope they dont let tim bradstreet near another punisher cover. I got sick of the "generic punisher gun holding pose #1893" along time ago.

Crash-Man

03-19-2006, 01:44 PM

so imo its only snobism and disdain toward the super hero world .

I've heard that this is the case with Ennis himself, but it's definitely not an attitude I hold. I count Punisher as a superhero, but I think that different characters work best in different contexts.

Punisher vs superhumans is like Spider-Man vs cosmic characters. Sure, a good writer can write a great story from that scenario once in a while, but on a consistent basis? I'm not very confident.

Then again, you're right. It's not like I'm losing the book I read.

Neolucifer

03-19-2006, 01:58 PM

Punisher vs superhumans is like Spider-Man vs cosmic characters. Sure, a good writer can write a great story from that scenario once in a while, but on a consistent basis? I'm not very confident.

True and fair enough , however (and i know it might sounds as a Ennis bashing but..) not even trying is damn too easy , imo .
What would be easier ? Offing in a gruesome way a mobster you will replace quite easily , or writing a good story with a known villain and the punisher ?
And that's a shame , with his talent , and the whole appeal of the R rating , Ennis could have done marvelous things with "full" Punisher .

Thats even more a gripe with the MAx line , than the Eniis take in fact ... in the end MAX is even wimpier than the 616 . because it mostly seclude the characters in small worlds , where they can do everything , alone .

Crash-Man

03-19-2006, 02:16 PM

not even trying is damn too easy

In Ennis' defense, he did feature Daredevil, Spider-Man, Wolverine, and Hulk (individually, and together) in his first three years on the series. And the Russian.

What would be easier ? Offing in a gruesome way a mobster you will replace quite easily , or writing a good story with a known villain and the punisher ?

How about writing a good story with a mobster?
I think that's always been the whole point of Punisher. The character exists to kill very bad people who do very bad things. The writer's responsibility is to make sure that the very bad person, the very bad thing, the hunt, and the eventual punishment, are all entertaining and satisfying. Ennis does this, and his work is quite thought-provoking as well.
I appreciate the finality of a well-written mobster's death (see Nicky Cavella in "Up is Down...") more than seeing Frank *almost* kill some supervillain who has to survive to guest star in Marvel's next X-crossover.

As for Max being "secluded" or "wimpy"...I don't really see how it's different from the mainstream Marvel U. Magneto destroyed part of New York during Planet X, and we didn't see any real repercussions in any other Marvel comic during or after the incident. Spider-Man fights to the death in the middle of Manhattan without the assistance of a single other NY-based hero. All titles exist in their own little world unless editorial dictates otherwise.

It's more believable that Punisher could wage a war on low-level crime without much interference from other heroes. His separation is by editorial mandate (Marvel understandably doesn't want Spidey and Aunty Mo in the same series) than by continuity.

NickThompson

03-19-2006, 02:21 PM

I love Punisher MAX, but I can see a hole for a MU Punisher.

Neolucifer

03-19-2006, 02:48 PM

In Ennis' defense, he did feature Daredevil, Spider-Man, Wolverine, and Hulk (individually, and together) in his first three years on the series. And the Russian.

Good then ..
I'll admit that everything i've seen so far was devoid of Mu chars , since i didnt follow his take on a regular basis . I'll try hunting down those issues .

It's more believable that Punisher could wage a war on low-level crime without much interference from other heroes. His separation is by editorial mandate (Marvel understandably doesn't want Spidey and Aunty Mo in the same series) than by continuity.

I know it a mandate , and thats what i was criticizing . MArvel doesnt seems to have the gut to feature on a regular basis , more than a few gritty characters in a Max Book .
While i of course dont want a Swaering spidey tearing down limbs and stealing eyeballs , while Aunt May get it on in a graphical way with Jarvis :p , there is enough room to feature some more mature stories ..
But we all know how its being played , instead book like Supreme Power get removed from the imprint for a more mainstream one .

It's more believable that Punisher could wage a war on low-level crime without much interference from other heroes.
I belive that it add more not only in action , but also in character depth , to keep the Heroes factor .
Especially the way he has been handling in Darevil VS Punisher , when confronted about his mistakes , and how he dragged into conflicts a few civilians . And i'm not fo course asking for a flying hero to get right in from of his gun , every time he goes out :) .But again we are getting for now what we both want , so its all cool .

The Master Meglomaniac

03-19-2006, 02:54 PM

the same could be advanced about him killing the same faceless mafiosi , and their godfather ... nothing exciting there , except maybe how he kills them , given the MAX label .

Might be fun at your first mobster hanged by his bowels , and Swaer word throw around , but quickly becomes boring and a gimmick , a parody of so many gritty movies and series ...
I never started following the Punisher to see him becomes a Hardcore Charles bronson .

My ideal Punisher titler would mix it all , and thats what i'm expecting so far from the new ongoing ...
Not only MU frank will kick mobster asses , yet will also deal with super-powered crime , and i cant see any flaw with that ...
ganstas will be welcomed interludes so frank wont be cosntantly succeding at killing known characters , or constatnly failing .
Besides we all know that to avoid killing potentially good chars , or knwon ones , we will have a huge amount of newly created supervillains , whose purpose for the majority will be to become cannon fodders , wich will be good enough .

At least the Max Punisher is effective and actually gets to kill his enemies and when Punsiher kills these hardcore gangsters and rapists you can feel good that he's delivering punishment on those who deseve it. Compare that to the MU Punisher who always came across as an ineffective dork, look at the recent DD/ Punisher mini, where he couldn't even take out a third rate crime boss like Hammerhead.

Going back even more, MU Punisher never succeed in killing Jigsaw, despite the fact that Jigsaw was involved with the mob that killed his family, Jigsaw isn't that bright, Jigsaw isn't really powerful and it is almost impossible to hide with Jigsaw's appearance. Despite all that Punisher always failed kill Jigsaw over the span of decade of Punisher comics. Punisher always comes across as a loser in regular MU.

The Master Meglomaniac

03-19-2006, 03:05 PM

Oh, yeah. If they're newly created villains, or the really, really lame ones, then I wouldn't mind them becoming cannon fodder. ;)

Yeah, because Punisher killing a really lame villains like Matador would be so kewl. :rolleyes:

Crash-Man

03-19-2006, 03:10 PM

I belive that it add more not only in action , but also in character depth , to keep the Heroes factor .

I agree. That Daredevil story I talked about was one of my favorite Ennis Punisher stories so far.

It's the story that made me realise how skilled the man is at writing different voices, and making each character unique. There wasn't a bit of condescension or disdain in the way he wrote DD's anti-Punisher dialogue. He made a convincing argument in support of traditional superhero values when he could have easily made Daredevil look like a naive fool. Yet, in the end, Punisher's method seemed "reasonable" for the world he lived in.

Which is why the story stands out for me as an explanation of why Punisher works best in his own context.

Still, if this new guy can pull off stories like that regularly...well he'll have my money.

DOVETAILS

03-19-2006, 03:49 PM

I don't know much about this writer.. But the artist is going to rule. His "X-Man" work was top of the line. I have a feeling it'll be a good series, but i'll wait and see, I suppose. I mean frank will have a damn good reason for going for the super-villans, i'm sure. A reasonsable impetus. I'm sure it will eventually go a different way anyway..
But it's good, you know? A totally different tone than the Ennis book keeps it fresh. :cool:

Volk1

03-19-2006, 04:58 PM

The character exists to kill very bad people who do very bad things. The writer's responsibility is to make sure that the very bad person, the very bad thing, the hunt, and the eventual punishment, are all entertaining and satisfying. Ennis does this, and his work is quite thought-provoking as well.
I appreciate the finality of a well-written mobster's death (see Nicky Cavella in "Up is Down...") more than seeing Frank *almost* kill some supervillain who has to survive to guest star in Marvel's next X-crossover.

This is so true. Punisher is a killer. A murderer. From day 1. Just the fact alone puts him in direct contrast with the 616. Punisher and Max belong to each other as smoothly as pb &j.

I don't get why someone said Max is wimpy. That's like saying 616 is "the best example of real-life issues starring real-life people." In Max, Frank deals with the real world. And its an engaging read. People are fk'd up, and it makes me feel good when I see Frank do away with these monstrous people. Because in our world, most of the time, these people get away with what they do.

I am looking forward to this new series though, because the writer seems genuine in his goal to not steer Frank from who he is, but only adapt him back into the 616. This way the reader who doesn't like the dark Max version gets their wish. And for the Punsher fan in all of us, we get more Frank and that is never a bad thing!

Jack Roberts

03-19-2006, 05:13 PM

I love Punisher MAX, but I can see a hole for a MU Punisher.

I don't. After what Ennis has done with him over the past 6 years, an MU Punisher will be nothing more than a homogenized saturday morning cartoon version of him, which after perusing this thread again, is what many of you want.

Maybe this'll start a trend and DC'll put the Sandman back in the DCU so he can fight Darkseid and Alexander Luthor. All it'll take is one retcon punch to make it happen.

Jack Roberts

03-19-2006, 05:16 PM

I don't get why someone said Max is wimpy.

'Cuz he doesn't fight super-villains, of course.

Young Avenger

03-19-2006, 05:32 PM

I'm not excited for this new Punisher. I'll stick with the Ennis's MAX series.

Tony Starkz

03-19-2006, 05:33 PM

I'm not excited for this new Punisher. I'll stick with the Ennis's MAX series.

Wow,the one thing we don't agree on!

Young Avenger

03-19-2006, 05:54 PM

Wow,the one thing we don't agree on!

The idea of Punisher fighting super-villains doesn't seem right to me. I see Frank as the guy who will fight and kill the street criminals like the mob, rapists, drug dealers, thugs, pick packets. He is definitely not someone I wanna see do battle with guys like Doctor Doom and Taskmaster. He's out of his element with those guys.

Jagernaut

03-19-2006, 06:49 PM

Ennis' Punisher is as real for me as the character may ever be.

I never saw Ennis' title as "not tied to continuity". It just doesn't feature superheroes every month. Which works for the better in my opinion.
My exact thoughts. Give this man a cookie.

Although, the situation that happened in a recent issue of MTU was perfect. He wasn't involved in a super hero situation, but he just happened to be near it, and had a sniper rifle. ;)

Neolucifer

03-19-2006, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Volk1
I don't get why someone said Max is wimpy.

'Cuz he doesn't fight super-villains, of course.

you both deserve cookies for actually catching the wimpy part , yet completely missing the small word around it :)

lonewolf23k

03-19-2006, 09:38 PM

The Master Meglomaniac

03-20-2006, 12:57 AM

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Punisher take out some more "costumed-class" adversaries while still focusing mainly on common street thugs and the like. Maybe they could take a MGS-like approach and pit Punisher up against hired professional mercenaries, in the style of Revolver Ocelot and Decoy Octopus.. Foes which would make an impact on the reader and be memorable, even if they get brutally killed by the end of the story..

Perhaps but if Punisher is in the regular Marvel universe certain questions start arise, like why hasn't he at least taken care of some of the more low rent crime bosses like Owl and Hammerhead. It would take a lot of skill not to make a Punisher look like an ineffective dork in the regular MU.

abyss

03-20-2006, 08:27 AM

I think I will give this title a try. I do enjoy the MAX series immensely. As long as they don't through over the top villans at him like Mageneto or Dr. Doom...and just stick to street level villians than I'll be happy. His recent mini Bullseye VS Punisher and Daredevil VS Punisher. Where very enjoyable. I just don't want a super hero showing up in every issue. The occasional guest appearances are cool. But not every issue.

NathanielEssex

03-20-2006, 09:12 AM

joeybdot

03-20-2006, 09:34 AM

hm..? I wonder about this title. I read the original War Journal from 1-30. I really enjoyed that series, but never passed issue 30 for I had gotten into other reads.

I will be in a way stubborn to read it, but im sure ill cave in and do so.

Joe Rice

03-20-2006, 09:55 AM

Punisher as a generic superhero vigilante I can do without. As long as I get my real Punisher by Ennis I wish this book all the luck in the world. I just won't be bothering with it.

Ivan Isaacs

03-20-2006, 01:32 PM

It would take a lot of skill not to make a Punisher look like an ineffective dork in the regular MU.

Yeah. Right. The Punisher hasn't been as part of the MU for what - 24 issues (what's the current issue of Punisher MAX)?
It's not like he didn't have like 200-250 issues of his own titles plus a gazillion guest appearance were he was far from being a "dork".
The Punisher works in the MU just fine. It's not like he HAS to go against super-villains all the time - he didn't in his previous issues. There were also normal gangster, the mob, the Yakuza et al).
The only thing missing will be the "WOOHOO! Shock value!" violence and the swear words. I'm not bothered by that ("Deadwood" is one of my favorite TV series) but I can live without it.

And a normal guy against super-villains... Scourge? Bar-without-a-name? Anyone? No?

Jack Roberts

03-20-2006, 03:44 PM

Yeah. Right. The Punisher hasn't been as part of the MU for what - 24 issues (what's the current issue of Punisher MAX)?

I love how you continue to tear down a series that you obviously don't bother to read or even keep up with.

It's not like he didn't have like 200-250 issues of his own titles plus a gazillion guest appearance were he was far from being a "dork".

From your point of view.

The majority of Punisher titles prevailed in the big gun anti-hero 90s, and once that trend faded, so did that incarnation of the Punisher.

The Punisher works in the MU just fine. It's not like he HAS to go against super-villains all the time - he didn't in his previous issues. There were also normal gangster, the mob, the Yakuza et al).

I thought that's why you (among others) didn't like the MAX series.

The only thing missing will be the "WOOHOO! Shock value!" violence and the swear words. I'm not bothered by that ("Deadwood" is one of my favorite TV series) but I can live without it.

Yes, the one thing we definitely don't need is for comics to shock us.

And a normal guy against super-villains... Scourge? Bar-without-a-name? Anyone? No?

Hmmmmm.

Jack Roberts

03-20-2006, 03:50 PM

you both deserve cookies for actually catching the wimpy part , yet completely missing the small word around it :)

Are you referring to when you posted "in the end the MAX Punisher is wimpier than the 616?"

The Master Meglomaniac

03-20-2006, 08:19 PM

Yeah. Right. The Punisher hasn't been as part of the MU for what - 24 issues (what's the current issue of Punisher MAX)?
It's not like he didn't have like 200-250 issues of his own titles plus a gazillion guest appearance were he was far from being a "dork".
The Punisher works in the MU just fine. It's not like he HAS to go against super-villains all the time - he didn't in his previous issues. There were also normal gangster, the mob, the Yakuza et al).
The only thing missing will be the "WOOHOO! Shock value!" violence and the swear words. I'm not bothered by that ("Deadwood" is one of my favorite TV series) but I can live without it.

And a normal guy against super-villains... Scourge? Bar-without-a-name? Anyone? No?

Yeah the Bar With No Name, how could I forgot, blowing away lame villains is really kewl. :rolleyes: I don't think I would respect Punisher if all he does is blow away misguided fools like Matador.

Yeah he three series, but all of them were cancelled in 1995 when the hype wore off and people realized that all 90s anti heroes are not all kewl. Those three series were often filled with stupid stories were Punisher fought cyborgs or didn't kill Jigsaw for some stupid reason. If Punisher worked so well in MU, why were all three of titles cancelled?

StoneGold

03-20-2006, 08:26 PM

Yeah the Bar With No Name, how could I forgot, blowing away lame villains is really kewl. :rolleyes:
Yes. Because if there was ever a writer guilty of "kewlness," it's Mark Gruenwald.

Michael P

03-20-2006, 08:33 PM

I don't think I would respect Punisher if all he does is blow away misguided fools like Matador.
I'm puzzled as to why you respect the Punisher in the first place.

lonewolf23k

03-20-2006, 08:39 PM

Perhaps but if Punisher is in the regular Marvel universe certain questions start arise, like why hasn't he at least taken care of some of the more low rent crime bosses like Owl and Hammerhead. It would take a lot of skill not to make a Punisher look like an ineffective dork in the regular MU.

Punisher doesn't have to be inneffectual for that.. You can get away with it by saying those guys are tougher then the average mobster, or even occasionally have close shaves with the Punisher..

...Or even occasionally have one die at the Punisher's hand at the end of a long storyline, after Frank's gone through the numerous layers of defenses those crimebosses placed around themselves...

...The end result being a lot of jokeying around by the other crimebosses to take over the fallen one's territory, creating dangerous crime wars..

...I'm only seeing potential stories here, not obstacles, folks.

The Master Meglomaniac

03-20-2006, 08:50 PM

Yes. Because if there was ever a writer guilty of "kewlness," it's Mark Gruenwald.

Mark said he later regreted the Bar With No name storyline.

StoneGold

03-20-2006, 08:55 PM

Mark said he later regreted the Bar With No name storyline.
Yes. He also later wrote CapWolf.

The Master Meglomaniac

03-20-2006, 08:58 PM

I'm puzzled as to why you respect the Punisher in the first place.

He cleans up the scum, gives very evil people exactly what they deserve. Take the Slavers arc, when he set the slave master on fire, you conuldn't help but think Punisher was doing the world a service by killing that very evil man. You can feel about Punisher killing really evil people, but Punisher blowing away a misguide fool like Matador, that just makes him seem like a dick.

The Master Meglomaniac

03-20-2006, 09:20 PM

Punisher doesn't have to be inneffectual for that.. You can get away with it by saying those guys are tougher then the average mobster, or even occasionally have close shaves with the Punisher..

...Or even occasionally have one die at the Punisher's hand at the end of a long storyline, after Frank's gone through the numerous layers of defenses those crimebosses placed around themselves...

...The end result being a lot of jokeying around by the other crimebosses to take over the fallen one's territory, creating dangerous crime wars..

...I'm only seeing potential stories here, not obstacles, folks.

What's the point of brining Punisher into the regular MU when he isn't going make a dent in the status quo of the underworld stituation. Besides your telling me Punisher couldn't kill the Owl?! What makes Owl tougher than the Punisher? Besides if Punisher kills a few of these low rent, it may convince the others to back off, it is likely ther kind of risk the Punisher would take and let's face it he's not the sanest of individuals, he's only happy when he's killing crime bosses, he's not a superhero like DD. Besides Owl is a loose cannon even amongst NYC's costumed crime lord set, using the MGH drug to build his empire. That is very reckless, creating a bunch of super powered junkies is very foolish and dangerous. Punisher would be making things more stable by killing Owl. Is there any good reason why he wouldn't kill Owl?

Punisher in MU would have to handled really carefully, otherwise it like the 90s, Punisher fighting cyborgs and letting Jigsaw get away every month.

The Master Meglomaniac

03-20-2006, 09:25 PM

Yes. He also later wrote CapWolf.

So what? I still don't see how killing lame villains is impressive or cool. Lame villains are almost always just misguided fools rather than evil people and blowing away misguided fools is just being a dick.

Frank

03-20-2006, 10:09 PM

Mark said he later regreted the Bar With No name storyline.

I doubt that. Considering John Walker/US Agent did much worst than that under his guidance.

I think Scourge was the "vigilante in a super-hero World" concept done right. I hope Matt Fraction does something along the line as that.

However his description of The Punisher sounds too much like Ennis`. Like a mean McGuyver, super-resourceful and clever and stuff. Punisher sure has to surprise you because he`s just normal but I think somebody in his position rather thinks ahead before making a hit rather than improvise a la Ennis. Plus Punisher to me is not an emotioneless unbeatable Michael Myers-type character that is invincible and do not make mystakes. Sure he`s a vigilante and he`s scary but he`s more of an unchaved badass macho guy that dreams about his death family every day and instead of drinking his sorrows, he kills and hunts down criminals.

Jake Gallows

03-21-2006, 01:14 PM

he has turned the punisher into a soulless and emotionless killing machine that bores me to tears. All his punisher does is walk around with a scowl on his face while mowing down mob guys by the dozens and hardly ever talks or think really. He is just a robot. I liked the punisher that had friends and went other places than just new york, he was more like a real person.

Seconded.

Going back even more, MU Punisher never succeed in killing Jigsaw

... the Punisher then arrived and shot Jigsaw dead.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/jigsawpu.htm

;)

Expletive Deleted

03-21-2006, 01:16 PM

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/jigsawpu.htm

;)I think he meant permanently.

Neolucifer

03-21-2006, 04:01 PM

Are you referring to when you posted "in the end the MAX Punisher is wimpier than the 616?"

Yes especially when it was about the MAX line , not so much the punisher ... still no cookie !

Jack Roberts

03-21-2006, 05:09 PM

Yes especially when it was about the MAX line , not so much the punisher ... still no cookie !

Are you refering to the lack of a MAX line?

I think your point would be better appreciated if you would actually explain it instead of being vague. If you take the time to express your point of view don't you think it would be worth it if somebody besides you uunderstood what you had to say?

The only thing you have explained is that your point is not so much about the Punisher when the discussion topic is the Punisher. Thusly, unless you choose to clarify (and another snarky riddle doesn't count), you have no point.