JLA/AVENGERS and INFINITE CRISIS

[Buried Alien]

Kurt Busiek once remarked that unlike most previous DC/Marvel crossovers, JLA/AVENGERS is part of the continuity of both universes. Indeed, at least in one or two DC stories published after JLA/AVENGERS, DCU characters obliquely referred the events of the crossover.

In terms of cosmic threat, JLA/AVENGERS was comparable to any multiversal menace that has ever affected the time-space continuum of either the DC or Marvel universes. Shifting timelines and continuities as well as the forcible merging and dividing of universes were as much a part of JLA/AVENGERS as they were of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS or INFINITE CRISIS.

Query: did the events of JLA/AVENGERS have any impact on the build up to INFINITE CRISIS? Were the events of JLA/AVENGERS among those viewed by Kal-L, Earth-Two Lois Lane, Superboy Prime, and Alexander Luthor? Were any of the events of JLA/AVENGERS also partially attributable to Superboy Prime's "retcon punches?"

It's interesting to note that Superman's JLA/AVENGERS criticisms of the Marvel Universe and the "failure" of its heroes echo the criticisms that Kal-L makes of the Post-COIE DC Universe in INFINITE CRISIS. As Kal-El listens to Kal-L's criticisms in INFINITE CRISIS, one can only wonder if Kal-El is thinking back with some sense of irony to things he said to Captain America during JLA/AVENGERS.

It'd be kind of cool if somewhere in the final two issues of INFINITE CRISIS, the two Supermen get to talk things over and Kal-El briefly mentions (without getting into trademark and copyright issues, of course) to Kal-L his discussions with Captain America and what those discussions taught him.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[converge241]

maybe the re-starting of the anti-matter world in busiek's crime syndicate run is somehow tied into one of the ret-con punches?

[Devil May Care]

It's interesting to remember that, since JLA/A is in canon, that the Marvel U is just another facet of the Multiverse, or Infinite Earths if you prefer (presumably the Ultimate Marvel universe is, too). How interesting would it have been to have the Anti-Monitor threatening the MU on his path to CoIE?

Maybe sometime down the road the two companies will produce a joint Crisis, creating a world populated by heroes of both companies (non-Amalgamated, of course).

I know that ranks up there with the snowball in hell, but it's still a fun thought.

[Buried Alien]

It's interesting to remember that, since JLA/A is in canon, that the Marvel U is just another facet of the Multiverse, or Infinite Earths if you prefer (presumably the Ultimate Marvel universe is, too). How interesting would it have been to have the Anti-Monitor threatening the MU on his path to CoIE?

Maybe sometime down the road the two companies will produce a joint Crisis, creating a world populated by heroes of both companies (non-Amalgamated, of course).

I know that ranks up there with the snowball in hell, but it's still a fun thought.

The idea almost has a built-in name ready to go: ULTIMATE CRISIS. :)

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[DrthTater]

even better..


CRISIS WAR

:p

[Paul Newell]

Secret Crisis? :)

[Buried Alien]

SECRET CRISIS WARS ON INFINITE EARTHS. :D

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[UniqueFrequency]

House of Crises

[90'sCartoonMan]

It's interesting to note that Superman's JLA/AVENGERS criticisms of the Marvel Universe and the "failure" of its heroes echo the criticisms that Kal-L makes of the Post-COIE DC Universe in INFINITE CRISIS. As Kal-El listens to Kal-L's criticisms in INFINITE CRISIS, one can only wonder if Kal-El is thinking back with some sense of irony to things he said to Captain America during JLA/AVENGERS.

That thought crossed my mind, actually. The Superman/Captain America clash brought up the question of what real heroes who lead the world should act like, and in IC, two Supermen are debating what the true Superman, the greatest hero, should act like.

It'd be kind of cool if somewhere in the final two issues of INFINITE CRISIS, the two Supermen get to talk things over and Kal-El briefly mentions (without getting into trademark and copyright issues, of course) to Kal-L his discussions with Captain America and what those discussions taught him.

There's got to be some legal way they can do that. Does anyone remember in Avengers Forever when they actually SHOWED Lex Luthor (teamed up with Dr. Octopus in a Spider-Man/Superman crossover)? I wonder what Infinite Crisis would be allowed to do.

Maybe sometime down the road the two companies will produce a joint Crisis, creating a world populated by heroes of both companies (non-Amalgamated, of course).

That's about as likely as Hawkman joining the Avengers. Although people thought that was going to happen. It's nice to speculate.

[stealthwise]

I like the idea of calling it Zero Clone Bloodlines Crusade.

[Buried Alien]

There's got to be some legal way they can do that. Does anyone remember in Avengers Forever when they actually SHOWED Lex Luthor (teamed up with Dr. Octopus in a Spider-Man/Superman crossover)?

Really? I can see how Marvel could finesse it by just showing a generic bald mad scientist (can't trademark that, after all) who looks like Luthor, but is never referred to by name...especially if he doesn't wear any paraphernelia (i.e. the purple and green jumpsuit or powered armor) that positively identifies him as Lex Luthor.

It'd be harder for DC to get away with that with Captain America, however.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Darkoth]

I think we will see another Marvel /DC event in the not too distant future.Its like a 10 or 20 year cycle.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Really? I can see how Marvel could finesse it by just showing a generic bald mad scientist (can't trademark that, after all) who looks like Luthor, but is never referred to by name...especially if he doesn't wear any paraphernelia (i.e. the purple and green jumpsuit or powered armor) that positively identifies him as Lex Luthor.

It'd be harder for DC to get away with that with Captain America, however.

Yeah, I guess he could've been a generic bald scientist, but in the Avengers Forever letters pages, they identified each and every reference, identifying Lex Luthor by name and referring to the Superman/Spider-Man story where he and Doc Ock appeared.

I guess you can't really put a "generic-looking" Marvel hero in. I was just thinking that using Lex Luthor like that was okay since Marvel and DC co-published Superman/Spider-Man. And since they also went in together on JLA/Avengers, maybe somehow DC could make use of that.

[Sabrinaset]

CRISIS DISSASEMBLED.... By Bendis.

[Kurt Busiek]

Yeah, I guess he could've been a generic bald scientist, but in the Avengers Forever letters pages, they identified each and every reference, identifying Lex Luthor by name --

No, we didn't. Look again.

kdb

[90'sCartoonMan]

No, we didn't. Look again.

kdb

Whoops, my mistake. That's what I get for relying on memory.

So is that how you got away with having him there? Since I know I can't trust what I remember, I must ask, was the picture new art or taken from the original story?

[Kurt Busiek]

So is that how you got away with having him there? Since I know I can't trust what I remember, I must ask, was the picture new art or taken from the original story?

New art. And he's a bald guy in a prison uniform -- no identifiable trademark elements to constitute infringement.

Admittedly, if we'd done it at DC with, say, Professor X, they'd have made us change it -- but Marvel is looser about such things, and Carlos is a nut.

kdb

[Buried Alien]

While you're here, Kurt, care to weigh in on the possible connections between JLA/AVENGERS and INFINITE CRISIS? :)

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Sabrinaset]

New art. And he's a bald guy in a prison uniform -- no identifiable trademark elements to constitute infringement.

Admittedly, if we'd done it at DC with, say, Professor X, they'd have made us change it -- but Marvel is looser about such things, and Carlos is a nut.

kdb

Yeah, but if DC had decided to do something about it, I think any jury would have been able to put two and two together and say, yeah, that was Luthor...just as in the first What If?, everyone KNEW that was Superman's fist attacking Spidey.

[BYC]

Operation Ultimate Galactic Secret Crisis

or

Age of Infinite Clone Crisis

or, an actual good one that just could work...

Infinity Crisis

[Leebenhouse]

Well I could see this, if DC ever buys out Marvel. The other way around would be unlikely, as DC is owned by a Mega-corp, and Marvel is part of its own entertainment group.

[Kurt Busiek]

While you're here, Kurt, care to weigh in on the possible connections between JLA/AVENGERS and INFINITE CRISIS? :)

Not really, though I'm entertained by seeing readers point them out.

The possible connections between JLA/AVENGERS and HOUSE OF M are even more fun.

kdb

[Kurt Busiek]

Yeah, but if DC had decided to do something about it, I think any jury would have been able to put two and two together and say, yeah, that was Luthor.

Wouldn't get that far. And if it did, Marvel would countersue over, say Hank Henshaw's origin, or the Impossible Man's cameo in a Mxyzptlk story, and so on. When both companies play, they're not gonna shout "unfair" unless it's more than just fun.

As indeed, DC has, from time to time, regarding the Squadron Supreme.

kdb

[Sabrinaset]

Not really, though I'm entertained by seeing readers point them out.

The possible connections between JLA/AVENGERS and HOUSE OF M are even more fun.

kdb

It was Wanda's Chaos Magik that gave Superboy his Retcon-Punch(TM) Power!

Edit to add: Yeah, I knew DC would hardly sue Marvel over Lex being there, or vice-versa when it seems like an inside joke, and neither company is making any kind of money off of a one-panel cameo. On the other hand, DC kinda has a point, despite the statute of limitations expiring here, that Marvel has made a heckuva lot of money off of the Squadron Supreme.

And I'd REALLY like to add that my top two favorite comic lines ..."Ultron. We would have words with thee." and "They're nothing but a bunch of Squadron Supreme wanna-be's!" both come from you, Mr. Busiek! So, for what it's worth coming from a dumb blonde, thanks for the good readin' stuff :)

[Bricolo]

Well I could see this, if DC ever buys out Marvel. The other way around would be unlikely, as DC is owned by a Mega-corp, and Marvel is part of its own entertainment group.

I am following this from a distance due to financial problems, but is DC including Wildstorm and Milestone in this current Infinite CRISIS? They own those but from what I can tell nothing is being done unless that Captain Atom in Wildstorm is a sign of it. If DC bought Marvel, I could see it happening or they could just say they always coexisted or just leave it alone but if they don't do it here with Milestone and Wildstorm when they have a chance then would they do it then?

I was kind of hoping DC would include all titles published by them in this, including the Looney Tunes and Scooby-Doo. Wouldn't it be neato if the pre-CRISIS, original Scooby-Doo gang met the more modern dark Batman, expecting the other?

and for Looney Tunes, something akin to Mighty Mouse's Mices on Infinite Earths"

[Dark Soul # 7]

Infinity House Of Infinite Zero Secret War Crisis On Our Identity Earths

[Predator]

Infinity House Of Infinite Zero Secret War Crisis On Our Identity Earths

LOL!!! :D

[Devil May Care]

The possible connections between JLA/AVENGERS and HOUSE OF M are even more fun.

As someone who's only a peripheral Marvel reader, what kind of tie-ins have come out there?

[Kurt Busiek]

As someone who's only a peripheral Marvel reader, what kind of tie-ins have come out there?

None I'm aware of.

kdb

[multiplexo]

Check out Twisted Toyfare Theatre or this website:

http://mysite.verizon.net/fanboyprime/

[Jim Yost]

Not really, though I'm entertained by seeing readers point them out.

The possible connections between JLA/AVENGERS and HOUSE OF M are even more fun.

kdb

You know, I for one always thought it was an ENORMOUS dropping-of-the-ball that Bendis didn't make what happened to Wanda when she went to the DCU the inciting event that sent her towards Disassambled & House of M...

[sharkerbob]

JLA/Avengers kicked ass. Its DC vs. Marvel the way it should have been.

Except for the "Dials go up to 11" quote. It might be just me, but that totally killed the moment. (God I hate Spinal Tap.)

But Superman with Thor's hammer and Cap's shield was the best.

Anyway, considering the fact that the very nature of the two worlds conflicted with each other so much, I can definitely see it having created a ripple effect which has been the cause of the ruckus happening in the worlds lately. Probably the final straw to start making Wanda go insane, and probably worsening or helping along the reality warping effects of Superboy's "Retcon Punches".

[the chosen one]

Secret Crisis on Infinite Wars

[KingEli]

Secret Crisis of The Ifinity Hour

[Green Arrow Jr.]

CRISIS DISSASEMBLED.... By Bendis.
I like that in the most disturbing way you can possibly imagine. Personally, it would be a blast if the New Avengers & reserve members help with the Infinite Crisis. Also, I would like to see the New JLA to help in the Civil War but that's the fanboy in me.

[Sean Walsh]

Infinity House Of Infinite Zero Secret War Crisis On Our Identity Earths

Funny. As I read that my mind went IHOIZSWCOOIE! before it started shutting down for a few minutes...

[Dark Soul # 7]

Funny. As I read that my mind went IHOIZSWCOOIE! before it started shutting down for a few minutes...That´s why it´s so great. Just reading the title will break your brain in half. The story itself would change the way comics are written and viewed upon FOREVER. Until it´s retconned away 1,½-2 years later.

[Joe Acro]

If JLA/Avengers was in continuity, does that mean that Starro somehow escaped from his icy prison on Manga Khan's ship and grew back to his immense size? Or were it and Terminus just physical constructs created by the Grandmaster or Krona?