Talk, talk, talk that's all you do.

[Gilda Dent]

The reading coach was supposed to come by today and do some training on how to set up the learning centers in my room so that they fit into the district guidelines. She steps in, and says she doesn't have time for the training today. That's fine with me, as I have a therapy appointment at 4:00, and need to leave right at the bell to get home, take my afternoon meds, and get to the appointment on time.

She doesn't have time to train me, but she starts talking about centers. Nothing useful, just theory. And continues to talk non-stop from 2:30 to 3:25. I mean that literally, nonstop. She would ask a question and continue talking without pausing to let me answer. She was talking in circles, returning to the same points again, and again, and again, some six or seven times, all the time giving me no real information. Which wasn't expected, of course, given that she didn't have time to train me.

I keep waiting for an opening, and none come. She keeps talking. No opening, no pause long enough for me to say something. I keep glancing over at the clock. I'm making a point of obviously glancing at the clock. Over and over. She doesn't get it.

Finally she stops for long enough for me to say, "I don't mean to be rude, but I really should have left half an hour ago. I have a therapy appointment, and I have to pay for it whether I go or not."

"Oh, I'm sorry, you should have said something. If you have an appointment all you have to do is say something . . ." followed by two minutes of apologizing and disclaimers about not being the kind of person who keeps people waiting, with each of her three points repeated three times. She asks me what kind of therapy, her husband goes to physical therapy, too, and she takes him there and she'd never want to keep someone from their appointment.

"It's psychotherapy."

"Oh, well you know that's covered by your insurance . . ." followed by another two minutes of disclaimers and explanations of how she's not the kind of person to keep people when they have an appointment. I think she was waiting for my to acknowledge that she wasn't the kind of person to keep people waiting, but she wouldn't stop talking about being the kind of person to keep people from their appointments long enough for me to tell her that I appreciate her not being the kind of person who keeps people from getting to their appointments.

"I really need to get going . . ."

"Oh, well I didn't mean to keep you, and next time say something!"

I was ten minutes late. I paid $30 for that ten minutes, and didn't get to use it. I then spent the next ten minutes griping about the woman who talked at me for an hour despite not having time to train me for 30 minutes, so she actually cost me 20 minutes of my session, which amounts to $60.


Discussion questions:

Should I send her a bill?
If so, should it be for $30 or $60?
Do you know anyone who talks without pausing for responses, or repeats the same things over and over, and doesn't seem to realize it?

Gilda

PS: A gold star for whoever recognizes the song I'm referencing in the thread title.

[howyadoin]

Should I send her a bill?
If so, should it be for $30 or $60?Yes, and it should be for $60. You probably won't get a cent from her, but hopefully it'll at least teach the self-absorbed bitch a lesson.
Do you know anyone who talks without pausing for responses, or repeats the same things over and over, and doesn't seem to realize it?All I can say is, you shoulda been to some of the CBR meet-ups last summer.
A gold star for whoever recognizes the song I'm referencing in the thread title.I keep thinking it's Foreigner, but I don't think that's right.

[howyadoin]

Either there's two songs with those lyrics, or you've heard of a Canadian hair-metal band called Coney Hatch.

I'm guessing it's the former.

[Sabrinaset]

Talk, Talk...by the Band Talk Talk....All you do is Talk, Talk....!

[Rachel Grey]

Should I send her a bill?
If so, should it be for $30 or $60?

Hit her with the 60.

Also next time she's schedualed to make an appearace have a rolled up sock on easy reach. Or a ball gag if you really want to get the message across ;)

[howyadoin]

Also next time she's schedualed to make an appearace have a rolled up sock on easy reach.A rolled-up sock with 60 bucks worth of quarters in it.

[Rachel Grey]

A rolled-up sock with 60 bucks worth of quarters in it.

Heh! I was thinking more of a sock gag thing, but your idea works too :p

[Cotton]

That woman is smoking the pot I tell ya! The Pot!

I wonder if anyone has pointed that out to her that she repeats herself and wastes people's time? If not then someone should.

[Spike-X]

That woman is smoking the pot I tell ya! The Pot!

I wonder if anyone has pointed that out to her that she repeats herself and wastes people's time? If not then someone should.
And they should take an hour and a half to tell her that, repeatedly, not stopping to let her get a word in.

Just to really drive the point home.

[Iangould]

Also next time she's schedualed to make an appearace have a rolled up sock on easy reach.

Nah, just an egg-timer.

[hulahulk]

Why did you not hold up your hand in gesture and say, "Pardon me...?"

I realize you did not want to be rude; but even in my line of work of high-end hospitality, there are limits to what people can tolerate. You certainly did not have to stand there for a half-hour or more.

And I recognized the thread title and song info immediately!! But SabrinaSet beat me to it.

[Solaris]

Count it as a $60 lesson, Gilda: Next time when she or someone else holds you up, Be ASSERTIVE. Interrupt. Tell them you have an appointment. If you need to lock up the room before you go, gather your things while they continue to talk, and walk them out of the room by their elbow when you leave. Lock the door, and start heading down the hallway.

The person may or may not follow you out to your car, still talking... but at that point you get in, start it up, roll down the window and say, "I'm sorry, but I'm going to be late to my doctor's appointment, and I have to pay whether I'm there or not. I'll catch you later on all this," and drive off.

What held you there? Her talking... or your reluctance to be assertive when it was called for? Who got inconvenienced, you, or her?

Honey, I know where you're coming from. I was raised in the "be polite, or you'll be thought of as a bitch, even if it's costing you something" South. Trust me---the only thing that REALLY kept you in that room with that woman was an overwhelming reluctance to act in a way you perceived as rude.

Why?

Because you put too much value on her, and other people's opinions, and not enough on your own concerns and your own life. Dammit, girl, it cost you $60 to stand there. You DO have the option to move those feet and leave. Learn to do it. Trust me. No one with half a lick of sense would fault you for walking out on a clingy chatterbox when you're late to the doctor. Most of your co-workers, if they heard about what happened, would probably share similar stories about the woman.

Next time, move. Walk. Go. There's nothing wrong, or rude, and everything RIGHT, in doing so.

[hulahulk]

Count it as a $60 lesson, Gilda: Next time when she or someone else holds you up, Be ASSERTIVE. Interrupt. Tell them you have an appointment. If you need to lock up the room before you go, gather your things while they continue to talk, and walk them out of the room by their elbow when you leave. Lock the door, and start heading down the hallway.

The person may or may not follow you out to your car, still talking... but at that point you get in, start it up, roll down the window and say, "I'm sorry, but I'm going to be late to my doctor's appointment, and I have to pay whether I'm there or not. I'll catch you later on all this," and drive off.

What held you there? Her talking... or your reluctance to be assertive when it was called for? Who got inconvenienced, you, or her?

Honey, I know where you're coming from. I was raised in the "be polite, or you'll be thought of as a bitch, even if it's costing you something" South. Trust me---the only thing that REALLY kept you in that room with that woman was an overwhelming reluctance to act in a way you perceived as rude.

Why?

Because you put too much value on her, and other people's opinions, and not enough on your own concerns and your own life. Dammit, girl, it cost you $60 to stand there. You DO have the option to move those feet and leave. Learn to do it. Trust me. No one with half a lick of sense would fault you for walking out on a clingy chatterbox when you're late to the doctor. Most of your co-workers, if they heard about what happened, would probably share similar stories about the woman.

Next time, move. Walk. Go. There's nothing wrong, or rude, and everything RIGHT, in doing so.

Beautifully put, Beautiful!

There is a huge difference in being assertive and being intrusive/rude. GD, I respect you enough to know automatically that you would easily be able to see the difference.

[Solaris]

Beautifully put, Beautiful!

There is a huge difference in being assertive and being intrusive/rude. GD, I respect you enough to know automatically that you would easily be able to see the difference.


Thank you. :) I've been in Gilda's boat... er, let me rephrase that: I've been in similar circumstances many times myself, and after my husband and some friends hit me over the head with a 2x4 a few times, I finally started to get the novel and ingenious idea (being a born and raised Southern girl, that board had a lot of early conditioning to break through) that I worried too much about what other people thought, would think, *might* think, of me, if I showed more assertiveness than a limp dishrag.

*grumph* It's one of my biggest beef on how women are raised down here. I know it happens everywhere to an extent... but it seems endemic (or should I say "epidemic") to the Southern U.S. Once the idea sank in, and I started applying it... I found that I was happier, more self-confident, and flat out enjoyed my life and being me a whole lot more, when I worried about "what will other people say/think" a whole lot less. :D I learned the difference between truly "being rude" and "taking care of me and my business, and my life." Too often, whatever it is IS none of their business, anyway. Gilda, trust me: you AREN'T going to cross a line from "assertive" into "rude." It's probably nearly impossible for you to do so, given your mindset. And if someone says you *were* rude, instead of knee-jerk justifying it, stop and think about it. You probably *weren't*, and you don't have to accept their saying that you *were*.

One thing Troy still chides me on is that I still explain too much, when it isn't necessary (i.e. to bill collectors). I can see that working in Gilda's case here---at most, all the woman needed to know was "I have a doctor's appointment, and I have to leave now or I'll be late." She *didn't* need to know anything about what *kind* of appt. it was... and if she'd asked, a simple "I'm sorry, I don't have time to talk about right now, or I'll be late," would do as an answer.

Given the kind of woman she sounds to be, this woman was fishing when she mentioned "physical therapy," and hit paydirt with "psychotherapy" as an answer. Don't be surprised, Gilda, if you find out later that she's been gossiping about you with other workers, speculating on what *kind* of psychotherapy you're in need of. (Hate to throw that sour note out there, but she sounds like the type, and it's a very good lesson in "don't give more than the bare info, if it really *IS* none of their business.")

Since she likely *will* gossip, unless you want to share your details with coworkers, a simple response to questions about it might be anything from "none of your business" (which can be seen as rude) or the much nicer, "I believe maintaining mental health is as important as physical health; therefore, I go to a therapist from time to time, to sort things out BEFORE they become a problem for me." They may think it's a little strange, but they'll look at it more like your a vegetarian or you do yoga, rather than "what's 'wrong' with her?" :) Everything in that statement is true, it requires absolutely nothing to be said about your past or traumas, and it satisfies curiosity without being "rude" or engendering further "suspicion" on their part. If they question further, tell them "I take a proactive approach to all my heath care---what do YOU do?" and turn the tables. Ask them if they get a yearly physical, etc., and from there you can easily branch the conversation into areas of good doctors/bad doctors, OB/GYNs (if it's a woman), funny stories about doctors, etc. You can probably pick up on something else in the conversation at that point and branch it further... like, if they mention their kids' pediatrician, then ask them something about their kids.

Diversion is a great conversational tactic, especially when it's coupled with a question about the other person and their life. As Troy once told me, "Most people love to talk about themselves. Ask a few questions, listen well, and they'll like you." Heh. Turn the tables and get them talking about themselves, and you can lead most people away from subjects you don't wish to discuss with them.

[west3man]

That's what I was looking for. I thought I'd be the only one to touch on it (and be "the bad guy").

Gilda, I don't think you can bill her for anything. You were there because you chose politeness or promptness. You were more considerate to the speaker than to yourself.

Those can be noble traits, but sometimes you've got to start walking away, interrupt, write a note, sing a song, do a dance, or kick'em in the nuts and say, "Gotta run."

[Gilda Dent]

The "send her a bill" part was a joke, in case that wasn't clear.

The song is a really old novelty song my stepfather used to listen to, "Golf, Golf, Golf".

Golf, golf, golf that's all you do
And you act likea little boy
When you lose (lose has three syllables here loo-ooo-ooze)
Seems like our life is in a rut
All you wanna do is putt, putt, putt
Golf, golf, golf that's all you do

I have no idea who the artist is. Haven't heard the song in some twenty years.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll respond later when I've had time to think about them. Off to work.

Gilda

[west3man]

Do you know anyone who talks without pausing for responses, or repeats the same things over and over, and doesn't seem to realize it?Yep. I've had people in my professional and personal life who do this.

Professional situations can be tricky, but the first time Mr. Garrulous or Ms. Loquacious interrupts ME or walks away from ME because my statement is taking too long, I feel I've got carte blanche to scream, "CUT!" in the middle of THEIR lines, too.

Ultimately, we choose which is more important to us, though - freedom or politeness.

PS: A gold star for whoever recognizes the song I'm referencing in the thread title.
No gold star, for me.

[Winslow]

I admire your patience. I would have cut the person off after 5 or maybe 10 minutes. Talkative self absorbed people drive me nuts.

It went too far though - and I can't really improve upon Solaris' post.

[Forefinger]

The reading coach was supposed to come by today and do some training on how to set up the learning centers in my room so that they fit into the district guidelines. She steps in, and says she doesn't have time for the training today. That's fine with me, as I have a therapy appointment at 4:00, and need to leave right at the bell to get home, take my afternoon meds, and get to the appointment on time.

She doesn't have time to train me, but she starts talking about centers. Nothing useful, just theory. And continues to talk non-stop from 2:30 to 3:25. I mean that literally, nonstop. She would ask a question and continue talking without pausing to let me answer. She was talking in circles, returning to the same points again, and again, and again, some six or seven times, all the time giving me no real information. Which wasn't expected, of course, given that she didn't have time to train me.

I keep waiting for an opening, and none come. She keeps talking. No opening, no pause long enough for me to say something. I keep glancing over at the clock. I'm making a point of obviously glancing at the clock. Over and over. She doesn't get it.

Finally she stops for long enough for me to say, "I don't mean to be rude, but I really should have left half an hour ago. I have a therapy appointment, and I have to pay for it whether I go or not."

"Oh, I'm sorry, you should have said something. If you have an appointment all you have to do is say something . . ." followed by two minutes of apologizing and disclaimers about not being the kind of person who keeps people waiting, with each of her three points repeated three times. She asks me what kind of therapy, her husband goes to physical therapy, too, and she takes him there and she'd never want to keep someone from their appointment.

"It's psychotherapy."

"Oh, well you know that's covered by your insurance . . ." followed by another two minutes of disclaimers and explanations of how she's not the kind of person to keep people when they have an appointment. I think she was waiting for my to acknowledge that she wasn't the kind of person to keep people waiting, but she wouldn't stop talking about being the kind of person to keep people from their appointments long enough for me to tell her that I appreciate her not being the kind of person who keeps people from getting to their appointments.

"I really need to get going . . ."

"Oh, well I didn't mean to keep you, and next time say something!"

I was ten minutes late. I paid $30 for that ten minutes, and didn't get to use it. I then spent the next ten minutes griping about the woman who talked at me for an hour despite not having time to train me for 30 minutes, so she actually cost me 20 minutes of my session, which amounts to $60.


Discussion questions:

Should I send her a bill?
If so, should it be for $30 or $60?
Do you know anyone who talks without pausing for responses, or repeats the same things over and over, and doesn't seem to realize it?

Gilda

PS: A gold star for whoever recognizes the song I'm referencing in the thread title.
My wife does this, not the talking part, but the indulging people who talk too much part. I always just tell her "tell the person you have to go, even if you come across as being a bit rude, you still get out of there and they don't end up messing up your schedule". I've gotten really upset with her because I've been at home waiting on her to go to the gym and she's stuck at work listening to one of her fellow teachers talk about bullshit.

I was proud of my wife recently, she was stuck there with the same woman who was talking about some crap. My wife told her that she wanted to make it home in time to see me before I had to go to class. The woman then started talking about how she had the same situation blah blah blah...my wife cut in and told her "I HAVE TO GO NOW, so I can see my husband" and then left.

That was great to hear her stand up for herself like that. I also enjoyed getting to see her before my class because sometimes it gets out late and I'll get home after she's asleep and go a whole day without seeing her.

You need to stand up to these people and tell them "I have an appointment, I have to go now, sorry." or something like that.

I'd just say that you soak up the $ 60 and just use it to fuel your inner rage that will allow you to go off on rude people who are inconsiderate of others and talk constantly.

[hulahulk]

The "send her a bill" part was a joke, in case that wasn't clear.

The song is a really old novelty song my stepfather used to listen to, "Golf, Golf, Golf".

Golf, golf, golf that's all you do
And you act likea little boy
When you lose (lose has three syllables here loo-ooo-ooze)
Seems like our life is in a rut
All you wanna do is putt, putt, putt
Golf, golf, golf that's all you do

I have no idea who the artist is. Haven't heard the song in some twenty years.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll respond later when I've had time to think about them. Off to work.

Gilda

SabrinaSet gets the gold star because the band's name was Talk, Talk. Their only song that I know of is also titled "Talk, Talk". It was on the album "Talk, Talk". I remember that because the whole song/album/band name being the same reminded me of Big Country, who had the same lapse in originality.
Have a nice day at work, GD.

[west3man]

My wife does this, not the talking part, but the indulging people who talk too much part. I always just tell her "tell the person you have to go, even if you come across as being a bit rude, you still get out of there and they don't end up messing up your schedule". I've gotten really upset with her because I've been at home waiting on her to go to the gym and she's stuck at work listening to one of her fellow teachers talk about bullshit.

I was proud of my wife recently, she was stuck there with the same woman who was talking about some crap. My wife told her that she wanted to make it home in time to see me before I had to go to class. The woman then started talking about how she had the same situation blah blah blah...my wife cut in and told her "I HAVE TO GO NOW, so I can see my husband" and then left.

That was great to hear her stand up for herself like that. I also enjoyed getting to see her before my class because sometimes it gets out late and I'll get home after she's asleep and go a whole day without seeing her.

You need to stand up to these people and tell them "I have an appointment, I have to go now, sorry." or something like that.

I'd just say that you soak up the $ 60 and just use it to fuel your inner rage that will allow you to go off on rude people who are inconsiderate of others and talk constantly.My girlfriend has been late for similar reasons.

I never blame her friends. They didn't twist her arm or hold a gun to her head. They just don't know when to shut up. :p (That includes times we go to movies together... as you might guess, it's become a rarity.)


Anyway, I'm sure we've all been on both sides of this situation at one time or another. It's just how life is sometimes. As always, we try to do better the next time.

[Boldido]

I have to deal with this everyday. Whenever you meet someone for a criminal case or a family law case (family law especially) they want to tell you anything and everything. Often times, they get on tangents that have nothing to do with the situation and getting them on track without hurting their feelings can be difficult. I have had training in active listening and have learned to direct people without being rude. Surprisingly, I can even be rude sometimes and as long as it is done with the right inflection and a big ol' smile on my face, I always get away with it. I have told more than one person that they have a mouth like a duck's ass, it just keeps going and going and going and have always gotten a laugh out of them when I have. Most talkers know they are talkers and there is nothing wrong with asserting yourself. As Chris said, if they continue then get up and leave. Go about your business as you normally would.

[Solaris]

My girlfriend has been late for similar reasons.

I never blame her friends. They didn't twist her arm or hold a gun to her head. They just don't know when to shut up. :p (That includes times we go to movies together... as you might guess, it's become a rarity.)


Anyway, I'm sure we've all been on both sides of this situation at one time or another. It's just how life is sometimes. As always, we try to do better the next time.


Yes. I've tied people up a time or two, because I'm enjoying their company. I try not to do that, and it usually happens when they *don't* tell me "I've got to be somewhere NOW!" and I feel kinda bad when it happens, even though I know they needed to tell me. (I do it most often with my family, btw, heh, and they know emphasis is sometimes required.) If they urgently need to go, for whatever reason, I really want to know that, because I don't want to be rude to *them* or tie them up.

And yep, I've been on the other end of that, and *not* been as assertive as I need to. And you're absolutely right: the important thing is to try better next time, on either side of the situation.

***

Gilda hon, I know it can be a bit of a shock when you go somewhere to complain and expect support... and instead, get a verbal "wake up!" smack, like I gave you above. When you're a sensitive person (as you are), I know it can even hurt a bit. I hope you know several things:

1. I think you are one of the dearest people on the board, and I respect you immensely, because you're such a super person.

2. I empathize strongly with the situation you described, and I know the frustration you felt.

3. Standing on the outside, and having been there, I could see your blind spot---and I care enough to point it out to you in a "good friend who loves you" kind of way... because I can see that you are doing *yourself* an injustice, by believing it's not socially-acceptable or right for you to stand up for yourself. You weren't treating my friend Gilda with the respect she deserves... so I gave you a good-natured verbal spank for it. :D And the reason it was a "spank" and not just a simple comment is, I know the mindset you're in, having been there. I know how *very* strong it is. A comment often isn't strong enough to get through the conditioning. A "spank" is (like cold water on a sleeper), because of the unanticipated shock value. It wakes you up and makes you really *look* at what's being said, rather than letting the conditioning water it down.

If we'd been in person, I would've followed it up with a hug and the smiling statement "SILLY YOU!", so since I neglected that in the above post...

*HUGS!!* "SILLY YOU!"

It's okay to be assertive, dear one. You *don't* have to be polite at cost to yourself, in order to be liked, or loved, or respected. You get all that by just being you. Don't let conditioning hold you back in taking genuine care of yourself... it's not fair to YOU, causes you additional worry, and generates unhappiness. It's also not fair to those who love you, like Emily, because when you hurt, they hurt.

Think about it. :)

[Gaz]

This is why I missed you, Sol...:)
You're like everyone's best buddy, strict teacher, cool mom and Mrs Robinson all at once.
(Meaning you can spank me anytime;))

It's probably not what you expected, Gilda, but she's right.

Mostly. This woman was still in the wrong after you did tell her and she still kept talking. A similar gentle, but firm, word to her to pay more attention and realise that not everyone has time to listen to her always might be good.

[Solaris]

This is why I missed you, Sol...:)
You're like everyone's best buddy, strict teacher, cool mom and Mrs Robinson all at once.
(Meaning you can spank me anytime;))

It's probably not what you expected, Gilda, but she's right.

Mostly. This woman was still in the wrong after you did tell her and she still kept talking. A similar gentle, but firm, word to her to pay more attention and realise that not everyone has time to listen to her always might be good.


Ahah, you're right, sir! ;) I neglected to address the other woman's fault (which isn't a very nice one), because others had already touched on it and because I was focused on Gilda.

And thank you. The line for spankings forms over there. :D Bare hand, or fur-lined paddle?

(Sorry for thread drift, Gilda---my sense of humor decided to take Gaz's bait, hee hee.)

[Nate C.]

I admire your patience. I would have cut the person off after 5 or maybe 10 minutes. Talkative self absorbed people drive me nuts.

It went too far though - and I can't really improve upon Solaris' post.

ditto every word.

[Gaz]

Ahah, you're right, sir! ;) I neglected to address the other woman's fault (which isn't a very nice one), because others had already touched on it and because I was focused on Gilda.

And thank you. The line for spankings forms over there. :D Bare hand, or fur-lined paddle?

(Sorry for thread drift, Gilda---my sense of humor decided to take Gaz's bait, hee hee.)
Thank you. And whichever you prefer, ma'am.

[Spike-X]

Yes. I've tied people up a time or two...

Was this before you spanked them?

[Gaz]

Was this before you spanked them?
Hey, she's holdin' out on me!

[YoursTruly]

Discussion questions:

Should I send her a bill?
Yes

If so, should it be for $30 or $60?
$60 - Money doesn't grow on trees and the fact that she was still flapping her trap after you told her you had to pay whether you went or not let's me know she has trouble thinking of anyone but herself.

Do you know anyone who talks without pausing for responses, or repeats the same things over and over, and doesn't seem to realize it?
Unfortunately, I tend to be one of these people when I'm angry. That's about the only time I do it though.

No clue about the song title...

[howyadoin]

Professional situations can be tricky, but the first time Mr. Garrulous or Ms. Loquacious interrupts ME or walks away from ME because my statement is taking too long, I feel I've got carte blanche to scream, "CUT!" in the middle of THEIR lines, too.Y'know, I honestly never thought of that solution.

But I like it.

[Gilda Dent]

Coincidentally (not ironically; an interesting coincidence is not irony), one of the things I'm working on in therapy is assertiveness.

I have two problems going in here. The first is her status. She's older than I am and a superior. Though not a supervisor, she is in a higher rank in the school district, which, for purposes of etiquette, is the same thing. I had it drilled into me as a young 'un that you are not rude to elders and/or superiors. This caused problems earlier in the year when I was assigned an aide who was older than I am, and very assertive, and quite a bit larger but that's another issue that's since been resolved.

The second is how I speak in coversation. I always wait until the other person pauses to indicate that it's my turn to speak, and when speaking will always stop when any other adult in the conversation begins speaking.

This is how I was taught to have a conversatiion. Person A speaks until he or she is finished, then pauses for person B to speak and waits for B to finish. That's just how polite conversation works, unless it's a clear case of a superior/subordinate, in which case the superior gets deference at all times. This one wasn't technically superior/subordinate, as she is my superior, but I'm not her subordinate, so it's not quite clear to me whether the rules of peer-peer conversation or superior/subordinate apply. I operate on superior/subordinate rules just as a precaution.

The only way out of this situation would have been to interrupt a person who is a superior/elder, thus being very rude to her.

Please note, I'm not trying to lay blame here, and I'm not irritated in the least by all the people here telling me that the primary problem here was my lack of assertiveness. I didn't realize that at the time, but my therapist and Emily both told me in no uncertain terms that I was in charge of when I left there. There are circumstances beyond you control that can prevent your being somewhere on time, but this wasn't one of them. I know that, but it doesn't help a lot.

I'm going to go through the individual responses and see if there's anything I didn't cover in this general response.

All of the advice and suggestions were welcome, by the way, thank you. I needed to vent my frustration, and was able to do that.

Gilda

[Winslow]

Wow. You're a cultural asian Gilda, but I'm probably not telling you anything.

Most Americans prefer that people let them know when they are busy or bugging them It's not considered rude to tell someone that. Even if they are a supervisor.

[Nate C.]

Gilda,

I don't want you to feel like you "failed" this encounter. If anything, the world needs more polite people in the world.

Assertiveness, like everything else, is a balancing act. You'll find the fulcrum, I'm sure.

[Michael P]

She doesn't have time to train me, but she starts talking about centers. Nothing useful, just theory. And continues to talk non-stop from 2:30 to 3:25. I mean that literally, nonstop. She would ask a question and continue talking without pausing to let me answer. She was talking in circles, returning to the same points again, and again, and again, some six or seven times, all the time giving me no real information. Which wasn't expected, of course, given that she didn't have time to train me.

My EIC at the magazine does this. I have to rein him in at meetings.

[Gilda Dent]

Count it as a $60 lesson, Gilda: Next time when she or someone else holds you up, Be ASSERTIVE. Interrupt. Tell them you have an appointment. If you need to lock up the room before you go, gather your things while they continue to talk, and walk them out of the room by their elbow when you leave. Lock the door, and start heading down the hallway.

The person may or may not follow you out to your car, still talking... but at that point you get in, start it up, roll down the window and say, "I'm sorry, but I'm going to be late to my doctor's appointment, and I have to pay whether I'm there or not. I'll catch you later on all this," and drive off.

Mmmmm. I'll consider it. We don't lock up, the custodians do that, but I do need time at the end of the day to prepare for the following day, distribute morning work, write out the "follow the directions" excercise, update the calendar, etc. I had to do that this morning, which I hate, but it was that or miss my appointment.

What held you there? Her talking... or your reluctance to be assertive when it was called for?

Both. Either of us could have ended the situation at any time.

Who got inconvenienced, you, or her?

Both, actually. She had a lot of work to do to get ready for a meeting the next day, which was why she stopped by to cancel our training session. By talking at me for an hour, she put herself an hour behind, too.

Honey, I know where you're coming from. I was raised in the "be polite, or you'll be thought of as a bitch, even if it's costing you something" South. Trust me---the only thing that REALLY kept you in that room with that woman was an overwhelming reluctance to act in a way you perceived as rude.

That's true. I'd rather be inconvenienced than be rude to another person.

Why?

Because you put too much value on her, and other people's opinions, and not enough on your own concerns and your own life. Dammit, girl, it cost you $60 to stand there. You DO have the option to move those feet and leave. Learn to do it. Trust me. No one with half a lick of sense would fault you for walking out on a clingy chatterbox when you're late to the doctor. Most of your co-workers, if they heard about what happened, would probably share similar stories about the woman.

Possibly. Nobody likes her, so far as I can tell, but most of my coworkers feel the same about me. I have a reputation for being a cold, stuck up bitch, but I'm not sure why other than that I speak very little with them.

Also, it's not as if it was a medical doctor. If I'm late there, I might not get seen or might get bumped, but wouldn't get charged for a full visit. The fifty minutes from 4:00-4:50 on most Tuesdays with my psychologist are mine and mine alone, so there's less urgency, though more cost in the long run. It's a confusing thing to balance.

Next time, move. Walk. Go. There's nothing wrong, or rude, and everything RIGHT, in doing so.

While I agree that I am in control there, and I may be better off leaving in the middle of the conversation, I do disagree slightly about it being rude. It is, at least a little bit.

Supper time here, I'll get back later.

Gilda

[Winslow]

My EIC at the magazine does this. I have to rein him in at meetings.

Actually, I think we all can talk excitedly about stuff from time to time. Some of us clue in by body language when the enthusiasm is not shared. I know this because I talk to my wife about comics. :D

But I can't talk non-stop for an hour and 15 though . . .

[Spike-X]

I have a reputation for being a cold, stuck up bitch, but I'm not sure why other than that I speak very little with them.


That's pretty much all it takes. "She doesn't talk to us, she must think she's better than us!"

[Gaz]

That's pretty much all it takes. "She doesn't talk to us, she must think she's better than us!"
God forbid anyone think "Maybe she's shy!"

Why does stuff like this automatically regress people to being 12?

[Solaris]

Mmmmm. I'll consider it. We don't lock up, the custodians do that, but I do need time at the end of the day to prepare for the following day, distribute morning work, write out the "follow the directions" excercise, update the calendar, etc. I had to do that this morning, which I hate, but it was that or miss my appointment.



Both. Either of us could have ended the situation at any time.



Both, actually. She had a lot of work to do to get ready for a meeting the next day, which was why she stopped by to cancel our training session. By talking at me for an hour, she put herself an hour behind, too.



That's true. I'd rather be inconvenienced than be rude to another person.

But honey, it's not rude if you have to leave, to interrupt and/or to leave when you need to... even if it *is* a superior.

Possibly. Nobody likes her, so far as I can tell, but most of my coworkers feel the same about me. I have a reputation for being a cold, stuck up bitch, but I'm not sure why other than that I speak very little with them.

Quite likely that's it. You're shy, not an extrovert, and thus don't talk much.

Want a way around it?

Show a bit of interest in *their* lives. Ask them questions (polite one, not intrusive, but I'm sure you've already got a handle on that) with a friendly smile. Then just be a good listener, with the appropriate comment from time to time. I promise, it'll go a long way toward improving your co-workers opinion of you. "Sweet but shy" they can relate to, and that's how they'll come to see you.

Have you considered that, given your circumstances, you may well be giving them a "leave me alone" body language? You have an awful lot in your life that you're either going to be uncomfortable talking about casually, or not need to talk about, or things that you fear will bring criticism, ridicule, harm, and/or potential loss of employment if they become public knowledge. In that kind of situation, it's easy to see why you'd feel uncomfortable in casual conversations with co-workers, and seek to avoid situations where you might be faced with questions about your life you don't want to discuss with them. You may be unconsiously showing that discomfort, and putting out a "don't talk to me, don't ask me" vibe.

There are ways around that---mainly the one I mentioned above: showing an interest in *their* lives, and being a good listener. Out of various conversations, I'm sure you can find a *few* things from your personal life that you'd be willing to share... stuff like your interests in music, literature, comics, etc., or that you like basketball---that kind of thing.

How about this? Make a written list of parts of your life that you *don't* want to discuss with your co-workers. Sit down with Emily or another close friend and practice "mock" conversations, with the other person posing questions to you that fall within those areas. Keep a pen and pad handy. Have them write down the question, and you write down what your spur of the moment response was. Go through about 5-10 of these... then look at what you've written, and go over with the friend *other* ways you could've responded that were friendly yet avoided having to reveal anything you don't want to reveal. Write THESE down, too. Practice saying them.

Do this at least once a week, for about 6 weeks. As you practice (think of it as being something like practice for a play you're in), you'll find that you start *thinking* in answering the questions in the way you want them handled.

Also, try to have your friend throw in a question at times that you won't expect---something that takes you by surprise and throws you for a loop. Write down how you responded to it, and work on that "surprise" response. Over time, you'll get a good grasp on handling the surprise questions with composure and grace, in such a fashion that you aren't revealing anything, but they feel like you *did* answer (rather than *avoided* answering).

Another thing: have your friend take some notes on your body language, as you respond to the questions. When you go over the questions and answers later, go over that as well. I know it's going to be different, responding to someone like Emily, versus a co-worker... but that's part of the exercise: do your best to PRETEND that it's not Emily sitting there, but someone you work with.

I have absolutely NO doubt that, given your natural sensitivity, grace, and your inner warmth, that after you've gone through the exercises a while, and also worked on the "ask questions and listen" thing, your co-workers will figure out that they've grossly misjudged you. I also have NO doubt that you can do this. You've got all the right internal components (the things I mentioned above)---you just need to practice and hone your skills with it. Roleplaying can be a wonderful training device, especially when you've got someone good to give you feedback. From what you've said of Emily, I'm sure she'd be good at it. Talk this idea over with your therapist, as well.

Also, it's not as if it was a medical doctor. If I'm late there, I might not get seen or might get bumped, but wouldn't get charged for a full visit. The fifty minutes from 4:00-4:50 on most Tuesdays with my psychologist are mine and mine alone, so there's less urgency, though more cost in the long run. It's a confusing thing to balance.

Doesn't matter. The very fact that someone has a doctor's appointment is enough to break off a conversation, to make the appointment on time. She has no need to know if it's a gp, an OB/GYN, a chiropractor, or a therapist. The phrase "Doctor's Appointment" covers them all, generically, and that's all that's necessary to say. It's like how many people will say "I want a Coke" when they actually want a different kind of soda, because they use the word "coke" for "soda." Where I grew up, if you said "I want a Coke" people would then ask "what kind?" Heh. Think of it as a conversational short-hand... which, it is. There's nothing dishonest in calling a therapist's appointment a "doctor's appointment," because "doctor's appointment" is commonly used to cover all kinds of medical care, including all the ones I mentioned above. So don't feel guilty using the phrase, and limiting it TO that phrase. :) You AREN'T LYING. You're just speaking with a colloquialism that's commonly accepted in our culture. Roll with it.

While I agree that I am in control there, and I may be better off leaving in the middle of the conversation, I do disagree slightly about it being rude. It is, at least a little bit.

It's only rude if you think the overriding purpose in your life is to be at the beck and call of other people's time, schedules, and concerns. :)

Look at it this way:

You are a very honest person... yet I would bet that you have no problem telling little white lies, if they keep you from hurting someone's feelings. For instance, a lady shows up at work in a hideous new dress that she's proud of... and she asks your opinion on it. I KNOW you aren't going to say "Frankly, I think it looks terrible on you." I would BET you'd say something like "Hmmm... yes it *is* a nice style... but I really like you in "_____" colors, because they bring out the shine in your eyes" or some such like that. Heck, you might even just say "Yes, it's lovely."

In that kind of situation, you're using your discretion to determine what to say that *won't* hurt their feelings, but *will* allow you to express at least *some* honesty in the answer you give. You have two principles in direct conflict: "being an honest person" and "being a person considerate of other people's feelings." And I'll BET you find a compromise between them, don't you? :D

In the case of Ms. Talker, it's the same kind of thing. You CAN find polite, but firm ways to interrupt, and to leave if necessary, that reconcile the conflict between "I have to go" and "I don't want to seem rude."

Supper time here, I'll get back later.

Gilda

Me too---gotta walk the pooch, and then go pick up Troy from the MARTA and get dinner. Catch you later, hon!

[Spike-X]

Supper time here, I'll get back later.


But we weren't done talking to you!

[west3man]

Y'know, I honestly never thought of that solution.

But I like it.
I've got a co-worker who seems to have a masters in smooth-ass exits. She'll laugh right along with you as she leaves the room. You know it's happening yet are powerless to act. You almost have to admire her WHILE she's doing it.

This annoyed me til I figured 1) I could bite her style (hopefully, using her powers for good instead of evil) when I encounter others and 2) I could definitely use it on her, because I'd be speaking her language.

If nothing else, it eliminates all feelings of guilt b/c I know she'd damn-well do it to me. It's like a new level of mutual, unspoken respect.

[west3man]

That's pretty much all it takes. "She doesn't talk to us, she must think she's better than us!"
My personal fave is "Hmph. She [/That Bitch] must think she's CUTE!"

Irrelevant. The problem is YOU think she's cute. Jealousy's the real bitch.

[Gilda Dent]

Wow. You're a cultural asian Gilda, but I'm probably not telling you anything.

Most Americans prefer that people let them know when they are busy or bugging them It's not considered rude to tell someone that. Even if they are a supervisor.

Were the rules I described for having a conversation not the standard ones? A Japanese conversation works a lot differently from the A-B-A-B type I described.

Gilda

[Winslow]

Were the rules I described for having a conversation not the standard ones? A Japanese conversation works a lot differently from the A-B-A-B type I described.

Gilda
The following parts of your post, emboldened below, look to me like Japanese Caste (for lack of a better term) formality.

This is how I was taught to have a conversation. Person A speaks until he or she is finished, then pauses for person B to speak and waits for B to finish. That's just how polite conversation works, unless it's a clear case of a superior/subordinate, in which case the superior gets deference at all times. This one wasn't technically superior/subordinate, as she is my superior, but I'm not her subordinate, so it's not quite clear to me whether the rules of peer-peer conversation or superior/subordinate apply. I operate on superior/subordinate rules just as a precaution.

The only way out of this situation would have been to interrupt a person who is a superior/elder, thus being very rude to her.

Your last sentence is not true in my experience as an American. If your boss is holding you up, you have every right to tell them you have to go. The only time you have to sit and listen is during a review, or meeting, or some formal setting. If it is not part of your job, you do not have to defer to your boss. And most American bosses understand this, unless they are jerks.

[DarkBlade]

Were the rules I described for having a conversation not the standard ones? A Japanese conversation works a lot differently from the A-B-A-B type I described.

Gilda
Gilda, what you described is closer to japanese conversations than how many people behave now. (Mind you, my understanding of japanese conversations comes from limited japanese language/culture classes and transported pop-culture.) Particularly the superior-elder type.

[K'Nort]

Possibly. Nobody likes her, so far as I can tell, but most of my coworkers feel the same about me. I have a reputation for being a cold, stuck up bitch, but I'm not sure why other than that I speak very little with them.

As others have said, that really is all it takes. Even shy people are expected to make an attempt -- ie, they get a pass for not initiating conversations but are still supposed to respond fully when the other party starts it. I decided long ago to just accept the label. Getting sucked into some of those inter-office soap operas can be even worse.

While I agree that I am in control there, and I may be better off leaving in the middle of the conversation, I do disagree slightly about it being rude. It is, at least a little bit.

It is if you leave without explanation or curtly, but if you smile and give an explanation (over your shoulder, in motion), then it really isn't rude at all.

And if she's in a supervisory position, then she is totally abusing her authority by digging for details on the nature of your appointment. Very inappropriate.

[Sabrinaset]

SabrinaSet gets the gold star because the band's name was Talk, Talk. Their only song that I know of is also titled "Talk, Talk". It was on the album "Talk, Talk". I remember that because the whole song/album/band name being the same reminded me of Big Country, who had the same lapse in originality.
Have a nice day at work, GD.

Gilda is not giving out my gold star. I think she's a gold star tease. I'm gunna talk to my Daddy and Uncle, both of them teachers themselves, to talk to her Principal about this.

[hulahulk]

Gilda is not giving out my gold star. I think she's a gold star tease. I'm gunna talk to my Daddy and Uncle, both of them teachers themselves, to talk to her Principal about this.

No more shiny red apples for the prof, either?

[Sabrinaset]

No more shiny red apples for the prof, either?

That's the funny thing about Gilda, she never asks for apples. She does want us to bring her shoes though. No more of those for her any more! She's gunna haveta buy them herself from now on.

[Solaris]

Gilda, what you described is closer to japanese conversations than how many people behave now. (Mind you, my understanding of japanese conversations comes from limited japanese language/culture classes and transported pop-culture.) Particularly the superior-elder type.


Then apparently Japanese culture and American Southern culture have some aspects in common... at least, in how I was raised! :D Hopefully, I balanced it out a bit more with you guys.

[Nate C.]

Then apparently Japanese culture and American Southern culture have some aspects in common... at least, in how I was raised! :D Hopefully, I balanced it out a bit more with you guys.

I've always thought Asian culture and Southern United States culture had a lot in common.

I remember watching The Joy Luck Club thinking, "Man, these Chinese ladies remind me of my mom, my aunts, my sister, my church, my...."

[Gilda Dent]

Gilda, what you described is closer to japanese conversations than how many people behave now. (Mind you, my understanding of japanese conversations comes from limited japanese language/culture classes and transported pop-culture.) Particularly the superior-elder type.

Ok. Leaving out the rules of respect for elders and superiors, and the automatic deference shown in a conversation there, aren't the basic rules of a peer conversation as I outlined?

I mean, A speaks, making her point. B waits for a pause indicating it is her turn to speak, then takes her turn. Back to A or C if there are others.

Basically, you're supposed to take turns and let the speaker finish their thought before you begin yours, and iterrupting is generally considered rude. Is this not the basic structure of how a conversation is supposed to work?

Gilda

[Solaris]

More on the Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense
by Suzette Haden Elgin (Hardcover - January 1983)

The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense at Work
by Suzette Haden Elgin (Paperback - January 19, 2000)


Look this lady up on Amazon. Check out her books (she has 4 listed on Amazon)---they have some cheap used copies for sale, and the first one *is* available in PB as well.

I've read the first one I listed... and found it INVALUABLE. I think the second one might help you as well. I cannot stress enough how helpful the first book was for me, in helping me to understand modes of communication, and ways to deal with them. (I really need to buy her other three books!) (It was funny---many of the things Meg's therapist told her in how to deal with her verbally-abusive father were the same kind of strategems detailed in the book.)

This book was a major key for me in recognizing and understanding the problems in my first marriage and in some other relationships, and further, how to deal with those things in a polite, but firm, manner. I can't recommend it strongly enough---buy and read it.

[Gilda Dent]

But honey, it's not rude if you have to leave, to interrupt and/or to leave when you need to... even if it *is* a superior.

If feels rude to me. I'll accept your assertion that it isn't actually rude by societal standards, but that doesn't change how it feels.

Quite likely that's it. You're shy, not an extrovert, and thus don't talk much.

I think there may be a bit of homophobia here, but the evidence is too flimsy to base anything on it other than a gut reaction, and those tend to be quite unreliable.

Want a way around it?

Show a bit of interest in *their* lives. Ask them questions (polite one, not intrusive, but I'm sure you've already got a handle on that) with a friendly smile. Then just be a good listener, with the appropriate comment from time to time. I promise, it'll go a long way toward improving your co-workers opinion of you. "Sweet but shy" they can relate to, and that's how they'll come to see you.

Mmm. And declining four offers to sit with other teachers at the Christmas banquet so that I can sit by myself instead probably didn't help much.

Casual conversations are hard for me, so I avoid them because they make me uncomfortable.

Have you considered that, given your circumstances, you may well be giving them a "leave me alone" body language? You have an awful lot in your life that you're either going to be uncomfortable talking about casually, or not need to talk about, or things that you fear will bring criticism, ridicule, harm, and/or potential loss of employment if they become public knowledge. In that kind of situation, it's easy to see why you'd feel uncomfortable in casual conversations with co-workers, and seek to avoid situations where you might be faced with questions about your life you don't want to discuss with them. You may be unconsiously showing that discomfort, and putting out a "don't talk to me, don't ask me" vibe.

Yep. It's not entirely an unconscious thing, though. There's safety in anonymity.

There are ways around that---mainly the one I mentioned above: showing an interest in *their* lives, and being a good listener. Out of various conversations, I'm sure you can find a *few* things from your personal life that you'd be willing to share... stuff like your interests in music, literature, comics, etc., or that you like basketball---that kind of thing.

[quote]How about this? Make a written list of parts of your life that you *don't* want to discuss with your co-workers. Sit down with Emily or another close friend and practice "mock" conversations, with the other person posing questions to you that fall within those areas. Keep a pen and pad handy. Have them write down the question, and you write down what your spur of the moment response was. Go through about 5-10 of these... then look at what you've written, and go over with the friend *other* ways you could've responded that were friendly yet avoided having to reveal anything you don't want to reveal. Write THESE down, too. Practice saying them.

I can edit out pronouns on the fly with ease--it's less difficult than you'd expect, especially when you've got practice doing it for your spouse and your own past both, but it does leave a listener with the impression that something is just a little off. If they've spent much time around gay people, they'll notice the pronoun game, but if not, it just comes off as a little bit of an off vibe that they can't quite put their finger on.

Do this at least once a week, for about 6 weeks. As you practice (think of it as being something like practice for a play you're in), you'll find that you start *thinking* in answering the questions in the way you want them handled.

Also, try to have your friend throw in a question at times that you won't expect---something that takes you by surprise and throws you for a loop. Write down how you responded to it, and work on that "surprise" response. Over time, you'll get a good grasp on handling the surprise questions with composure and grace, in such a fashion that you aren't revealing anything, but they feel like you *did* answer (rather than *avoided* answering).

Another thing: have your friend take some notes on your body language, as you respond to the questions. When you go over the questions and answers later, go over that as well. I know it's going to be different, responding to someone like Emily, versus a co-worker... but that's part of the exercise: do your best to PRETEND that it's not Emily sitting there, but someone you work with.

Thanks, I'll run it by Emily. My brother is half a continent away, and the two of them are about it when it comes to people close to me.

I have absolutely NO doubt that, given your natural sensitivity, grace, and your inner warmth, that after you've gone through the exercises a while, and also worked on the "ask questions and listen" thing, your co-workers will figure out that they've grossly misjudged you. I also have NO doubt that you can do this. You've got all the right internal components (the things I mentioned above)---you just need to practice and hone your skills with it. Roleplaying can be a wonderful training device, especially when you've got someone good to give you feedback. From what you've said of Emily, I'm sure she'd be good at it. Talk this idea over with your therapist, as well.

I'll do that. We've been mainly working on the cognitive part of it so far--recognizing and dismissing automatic negative thoughts when they occur, so that I can control them instead of letting them control me, which is much easier than it sounds, and self-acceptance, which is an absolute bitch to get a handle on.

Doesn't matter. The very fact that someone has a doctor's appointment is enough to break off a conversation, to make the appointment on time. She has no need to know if it's a gp, an OB/GYN, a chiropractor, or a therapist. The phrase "Doctor's Appointment" covers them all, generically, and that's all that's necessary to say. It's like how many people will say "I want a Coke" when they actually want a different kind of soda, because they use the word "coke" for "soda." Where I grew up, if you said "I want a Coke" people would then ask "what kind?" Heh. Think of it as a conversational short-hand... which, it is. There's nothing dishonest in calling a therapist's appointment a "doctor's appointment," because "doctor's appointment" is commonly used to cover all kinds of medical care, including all the ones I mentioned above. So don't feel guilty using the phrase, and limiting it TO that phrase. :) You AREN'T LYING. You're just speaking with a colloquialism that's commonly accepted in our culture. Roll with it.

Plus, he is a doctor. PhD. in clinical psychology.

It's only rude if you think the overriding purpose in your life is to be at the beck and call of other people's time, schedules, and concerns. :)

Well, not all the time, but being of service to others, my students and Emily, is one of the primary purposes of my life.

Look at it this way:

You are a very honest person... yet I would bet that you have no problem telling little white lies, if they keep you from hurting someone's feelings. For instance, a lady shows up at work in a hideous new dress that she's proud of... and she asks your opinion on it. I KNOW you aren't going to say "Frankly, I think it looks terrible on you." I would BET you'd say something like "Hmmm... yes it *is* a nice style... but I really like you in "_____" colors, because they bring out the shine in your eyes" or some such like that. Heck, you might even just say "Yes, it's lovely."

In that kind of situation, you're using your discretion to determine what to say that *won't* hurt their feelings, but *will* allow you to express at least *some* honesty in the answer you give. You have two principles in direct conflict: "being an honest person" and "being a person considerate of other people's feelings." And I'll BET you find a compromise between them, don't you? :D

When talking to a child, sure. It doesn't happen with adults, except once or twice with a woman commenting on another woman's outfit. My grade level chair constantly wears colors that are all wrong for her coloring, but I figure it isn't my place to judge other people's fashion sense.

I'd most likely just lie--"Iit's fine." It's harmless, the person hearing, "It's fine" generally understands that that isn't actually an opinion, but a meaningless platitude, and you've given a polite response.

I have to be careful not to compliment another woman's clothing too, because I'm openly gay, and doing so could be easily misconstrued as more than intended.

In the case of Ms. Talker, it's the same kind of thing. You CAN find polite, but firm ways to interrupt, and to leave if necessary, that reconcile the conflict between "I have to go" and "I don't want to seem rude."

I thought I had, in glancing at the clock openly, but I was mistaken. It still flabbergasts me that she had a lot of work to do and was cancelling a 30 minute training session, but was willing to talk for an hour anyway.

Thanks for the suggestions. It's been very helpful I'll run them by "the team" (Emily, Jiro, the good doctor.)

Gilda

[west3man]

Heh.
Anybody else noticed the irony of the thread title relative to some of these posts?

[Winslow]

Ok. Leaving out the rules of respect for elders and superiors, and the automatic deference shown in a conversation there, aren't the basic rules of a peer conversation as I outlined?

I'm not DB . . . but

Leaving out the rules of respect for elders and superiors, and automatic deference shown in conversation" is leaving quite a bit out.

Other than that, yeah, that's pretty much a summary of casual conversation.

However, if I am talking to someone about something I know alot about and they know little, the conversation is more one sided. I will look for eye contact, a head nod, or a verbal "uh huh" to make sure someone is still with me. If I don't get those, then I realize they're not interested and shut up. I think your peer didn't get the hints.

[Winslow]

Heh.
Anybody else noticed the irony of the thread title relative to some of these posts?

Shut up you . . .


;)

[Gaz]

***

Gilda hon, I know it can be a bit of a shock when you go somewhere to complain and expect support... and instead, get a verbal "wake up!" smack, like I gave you above. When you're a sensitive person (as you are), I know it can even hurt a bit.
*snip*
3. Standing on the outside, and having been there, I could see your blind spot---and I care enough to point it out to you in a "good friend who loves you" kind of way... because I can see that you are doing *yourself* an injustice, by believing it's not socially-acceptable or right for you to stand up for yourself. You weren't treating my friend Gilda with the respect she deserves... so I gave you a good-natured verbal spank for it. :D And the reason it was a "spank" and not just a simple comment is, I know the mindset you're in, having been there. I know how *very* strong it is. A comment often isn't strong enough to get through the conditioning. A "spank" is (like cold water on a sleeper), because of the unanticipated shock value. It wakes you up and makes you really *look* at what's being said, rather than letting the conditioning water it down.

If we'd been in person, I would've followed it up with a hug and the smiling statement "SILLY YOU!", so since I neglected that in the above post...

*HUGS!!* "SILLY YOU!"

It's okay to be assertive, dear one. You *don't* have to be polite at cost to yourself, in order to be liked, or loved, or respected. You get all that by just being you. Don't let conditioning hold you back in taking genuine care of yourself... it's not fair to YOU, causes you additional worry, and generates unhappiness. It's also not fair to those who love you, like Emily, because when you hurt, they hurt.

Think about it. :)
Simply wanted to highlight this. Mainly because the wording makes me smile even reading it a third time, and to reiterate (or maybe just iterate?) my total agreement with the feelings contained.
In short: assertive = good, Gilda = awesome :D

[K'Nort]

I think there may be a bit of homophobia here, but the evidence is too flimsy to base anything on it other than a gut reaction, and those tend to be quite unreliable.....

Mmm. And declining four offers to sit with other teachers at the Christmas banquet so that I can sit by myself instead probably didn't help much.

Casual conversations are hard for me, so I avoid them because they make me uncomfortable.

That behaviour is plenty anti-social enough for people to be turned off by you with no homophobia involved. It's kind of strange that you were willing to do that but consider breaking off a conversation with a totally valid excuse rude. For many, the declining invites and openly scorning everyone to sit somewhere else is much much more rude. If not openly hostile.

For what it's worth, in terms of how much people can be willing to accomodate the shy, frequently if you just sit there, that's all you have to do. You can just smile and nod and eat and not actually engage in the conversation. Especially if there are at least two other people and thus you're not necessary for a conversation to exist.


I thought I had, in glancing at the clock openly, but I was mistaken.

People really never do notice that sort of thing, sadly. And often, people will be thinking/saying they should go, but nevertheless stay voluntarily because they're enjoying the conversation, so there's additional ambiguity there.

[Gaz]

That behaviour is plenty anti-social enough for people to be turned off by you with no homophobia involved. It's kind of strange that you were willing to do that but consider breaking off a conversation with a totally valid excuse rude. For many, the declining invites and openly scorning everyone to sit somewhere else is much much more rude. If not openly hostile.

Openly scorn? OK, that's BS. Not that that's a false, assessment, K, but that people see shyness as arrogance. How damn cynical is that? "She doesn't ltalk much, she must be a stuck up cow!"

For what it's worth, in terms of how much people can be willing to accomodate the shy, frequently if you just sit there, that's all you have to do. You can just smile and nod and eat and not actually engage in the conversation. Especially if there are at least two other people and thus you're not necessary for a conversation to exist.
Which is fine for them, but the third wheel factor comes into play, especially if you're uninterested/not knowledable about the topic of discussion. You're superfluous, so why are you there when you're not needed, and arguably, not truly wanted? Plus, there's times where some people prefer being alone.

[Winslow]

Openly scorn? OK, that's BS. Not that that's a false, assessment, K, but that people see shyness as arrogance. How damn cynical is that? "She doesn't ltalk much, she must be a stuck up cow!"

If you are at a social function, and you decline to sit with someone, and then sit down somewhere else by yourself, that's going to be offensive.

Rejection w/out apparent cause = Offense

I don't think Gilda's arrogant by a long shot, but she does need to deal with this.

[Gaz]

If you are at a social function, and you decline to sit with someone, and then sit down somewhere else by yourself, that's going to be offensive.

Rejection w/out apparent cause = Offense

I don't think Gilda's arrogant by a long shot, but she does need to deal with this.
Huh? "Not comfortable at these functions" never crosses someone's mind? That's what I mean. Why is the worst the first conclusion to be jumped to?

[K'Nort]

Openly scorn? OK, that's BS. Not that that's a false, assessment, K, but that people see shyness as arrogance. How damn cynical is that? "She doesn't ltalk much, she must be a stuck up cow!"

Office relationships/politics are not the same as general social interactions.

And it's not about simply not talking much. If they try to reach out and say 'hey come join us' and she says no, that is going to be seen as stuck up or otherwise hostile, yes.

Which is fine for them, but the third wheel factor comes into play, especially if you're uninterested/not knowledable about the topic of discussion. You're superfluous, so why are you there when you're not needed, and arguably, not truly wanted? Plus, there's times where some people prefer being alone.

She was specifically invited, so not wanted is a non-issue. It's impolite and generally self-destructive to try to imagine sinister motives in invitations (they're saying come join us but they don't really mean it). And again, in work scenarios, you're expected to learn to all socialize together. Even if you don't like it. It even impacts employment. 'Not a team player' is a good way to not get your contract renewed.

[Winslow]

Huh? "Not comfortable at these functions" never crosses someone's mind? That's what I mean. Why is the worst the first conclusion to be jumped to?

Giving peope the benefit of the doubt is noble.

But holding adults to a standard of resonable social interaction at a social gathering is not a bad thing either.

In other words, I understand the offense. But the offense shouldn't have resulted in backstabbing gossip. Someone should have told Gilda that sitting by herself after being invited to sit with someone is a snub, and not very polite.

[Gaz]

Giving peope the benefit of the doubt is noble.

But holding adults to a standard of resonable social interaction at a social gathering is not a bad thing either.

In other words, I understand the offense. But the offense shouldn't have resulted in backstabbing gossip. Someone should have told Gilda that sitting by herself after being invited to sit with someone is a snub, and not very polite.
That may have helped, but trust me, either way, if you're not a social person by nature, being thought of as stuck up or rude isn't going to make you pop out of that shell.

[K'Nort]

Huh? "Not comfortable at these functions" never crosses someone's mind? That's what I mean. Why is the worst the first conclusion to be jumped to?

I don't like this getting so long because the more posts there are, the more it looks like a pile-on attack on Gilda and that's not the intention by any stretch.

But the general idea here is that "not comfortable" is irrelevant. It's one of those things social etiquette that you're required to suck up and do regardless. Like being polite to people you can't stand. Most people hate those functions. But it's a job.

[Winslow]

I don't like this getting so long because the more posts there are, the more it looks like a pile-on attack on Gilda and that's not the intention by any stretch.

Me either.

We like you a lot Gilda - just tryin' to help.

[Spackling Compound]

Heh.
Anybody else noticed the irony of the thread title relative to some of these posts?
Type, type, type.....

[Winslow]

That may have helped, but trust me, either way, if you're not a social person by nature, being thought of as stuck up or rude isn't going to make you pop out of that shell.

Believe me - I know.

I was at a social gatheirng in January for my company up in New York City.

For 4 LONG hours all I did was small talk and smoozing for business with strangers.

The beer was good. So it wasn't a total waste.

[Gaz]

Believe me - I know.

I was at a social gatheirng in January for my company up in New York City.

For 4 LONG hours all I did was small talk and smoozing for business with strangers.

The beer was good. So it wasn't a total waste.
And I'm lousy at small talk. Feigning interest in things I don't care about, with people I don't care about is nigh impossible for me.

[Spackling Compound]

Believe me - I know.

I was at a social gatheirng in January for my company up in New York City.

For 4 LONG hours all I did was small talk and smoozing for business with strangers.

The beer was good. So it wasn't a total waste.

Most social gatherings outside of family and with friends, are awkward and contrived and superficial (for the most part).
So take it for what it is. Yeah, schmooze, drink a beer, tell golf stories, feign interest in someone's building plans or vacation stories. Make promises to call them next time you want to golf or grab a beer.

Goes a long way. And does a lot of good for those who only can operate on that level.

4 hours? Marathon timing. I can hold it up to about 2 and I'm gone. But, again, I don't drink.

[Solaris]

Me either.

We like you a lot Gilda - just tryin' to help.


Yes! If we didn't give a shit, this thread would have only one post. :D

Everyone has their own ideas of the situation, based on how Gilda described it. I'm willing to bet Gilda will take every single one of them and examine them in the mix, for whatever value they may have, because she's just that kind of person. We're serving, in a way, as a microcosm of various viewpoints on the kind of situations and interactions she's described... and in such a fashion that she's able to sit back and view/analyze it at her leisure, rather than being "in the middle of a social situation" while trying to do that.

But there's no doubt about the fact that Gilda is well-liked here... if for no other reason, than that so many of us are sticking our oars in trying to give viewpoints and help! :D

We luv ya, hon! :D *hugs!*

[Gaz]

Yes! If we didn't give a shit, this thread would have only one post. :D

Everyone has their own ideas of the situation, based on how Gilda described it. I'm willing to bet Gilda will take every single one of them and examine them in the mix, for whatever value they may have, because she's just that kind of person. We're serving, in a way, as a microcosm of various viewpoints on the kind of situations and interactions she's described... and in such a fashion that she's able to sit back and view/analyze it at her leisure, rather than being "in the middle of a social situation" while trying to do that.

But there's no doubt about the fact that Gilda is well-liked here... if for no other reason, than that so many of us are sticking our oars in trying to give viewpoints and help! :D

We luv ya, hon! :D *hugs!*

*attempts to stay mad at social conventions*

Damnit! I will not be made to feel all warm and fuzzy!

*sighs*

Yes, I will.

[Gilda Dent]

Edit: I was just getting defensive.

[Gilda Dent]

The hostage taker from last weekwas back today. My kids were filling in missing numbers in a hundred grid and finding patterns using the grid, when she decides I'm not busy and wants to talk about tomorrow's visit. I'm not sure if she understands that cirulating among the students and offering feedback as they work is just as important a part of the teaching/discipline process as initial instruction, but it doesn't seem so.

She's doing her thing, repeating the same information several times, and at first pause I tell her I really need to get back to my students. She says she understands, she'll just be another second, and continues talking. Next pause, I repeat that I need to get back to my students, who are by this time gradually finishing their initial assignments. She keeps talking. Next pause I tell her I really need to take care of my math right now, and she tells me she won't have time later on as she's going to be helping other teachers when she's done with me. I'm mentally screaming, 'So go. Leave. Help them. Leave me alone. I'm teaching math right now.'

A student walks up and waits, and I turn to look at her, and she starts to ask a question--just as she's been trained to do, well done. Hostage taker turns to her and says, "Miss Dent was talking to another adult. You need to wait your turn." Geez, is this woman completely clueless? I wasn't talking to her, she was talking at me and I was asking her to let me go back to my kids so I could, like, teach them, and here was a child asking for help, and I had signaled to the child that she could talk to me. I ask her what she needs, and she asks what she's supposed to do next. Having been distracted, I hadn't yet put out the supplemental excercise for those finishing early--kids turn in their paper to the math "finished" tray, and get the extra assignment from the tray next to it. I don't put them out until the main assignement is in progress because they're usually fun assignments and some kids will try to raid them ahead of time if given the chance.

I say, "Excuse me for a moment and walk over to the veritical file on my desk and remove the count-by-2's dot to dot that the kids would be doing, give them to the girl who was asking and tell her to put them in the tray. Hostage taker continues unabated. Two more students come up to me with questions, and both times I turn to the student and take their question. Hostage taker continues talking, but stops telling the students they shouldn't be talking to me.

She eventually finishes with her third repetition of her main points (there's a big inspection tomorrow of the reading program and she's worried) about how my centers should look to get the best score, then packs up and leaves in a hurry, because she hasn't much time.

I honestly don't understand how she can be in a hurry and still repeat things four times.

However, several of you were right. I was downright rude to her to her face, and she didn't even seem to notice or care, and it had no effect.

Short of telling her, "Shut the hell up and leave so I can teach math," I don't think I could have been more forceful and it had no effect.

I was, however, able to get a little work done while she was talking at me, so that was an improvement.

Gilda

[howyadoin]

aren't the basic rules of a peer conversation as I outlined?

I mean, A speaks, making her point. B waits for a pause indicating it is her turn to speak, then takes her turn. Back to A or C if there are others.

Basically, you're supposed to take turns and let the speaker finish their thought before you begin yours, and iterrupting is generally considered rude. Is this not the basic structure of how a conversation is supposed to work?Yes, interrupting is rude. But so are verbal diarrhea and pathetic ego-stroking attempts to dominate the conversation.

And this is one case where "he started it" is actually a valid excuse.

[howyadoin]

And I'm lousy at small talk. Feigning interest in things I don't care about, with people I don't care about is nigh impossible for me.See, this is the part I don't think you're getting - those things are hard for lots of people. Even the people who seem good at it most likely don't enjoy it.

Social obligations are part of interacting with human beings.

The End.

[west3man]

See, this is the part I don't think you're getting - those things are hard for lots of people. Even the people who seem good at it most likely don't enjoy it.

Social obligations are part of interacting with human beings.

The End.
Somewhere between "human beings" and "The End" is "choice."
And if it's not, it should be.

[howyadoin]

Somewhere between "human beings" and "The End" is "choice."
And if it's not, it should be.Fair enough. But if you choose not to interact with human beings, then there's not much point in complaining about not having friends.

Or to put it another way, if you're in a bad situation and you won't try to change that situation, then - not unlike in the aforementioned iwarrior case - chances are pretty good that the situation will remain bad.

[west3man]

Fair enough. But if you choose not to interact with human beings, then there's not much point in complaining about not having friends.

Or to put it another way, if you're in a bad situation and you won't try to change that situation, then - not unlike in the aforementioned iwarrior case - chances are pretty good that the situation will remain bad.
That kinda assumes that choosing not to do what other people want you to do is equivalent to doing nothing, at all.

[howyadoin]

That kinda assumes that choosing not to do what other people want you to do is equivalent to doing nothing, at all.How would you categorize it, then? Not to single Gaz out, but he did define small talk as "feigning interest in things I don't care about, with people I don't care about."

If you're gonna make friends, you pretty much have to meet 'em halfway, and implying that they and their opinions are worthless just doesn't qualify.

Beyond all that, you're a social guy, west. What do you recommend as a solution to the problem at hand?

[tangentman]

Gilda, congratulations on taking an important step in your dealings with that masturbatory woman! That she kept on talking despite your assertive statements is a failure on her part--not your's. I think your choice to continue helping your students was a move in a positive direction. Lady Blabs-A-Lot apparently lacks the self-awareness and consideration to shelve her ego long enough for you to meet your own needs. However, you kept on with your business and moved your class in the necessary direction. Good for you!

I noticed from that post that you took the action necessary, regardless of Lady Blabs-A-Lot's choices in the interaction. She may NEVER choose to change her ways, but hopefully, she'll get the message that you won't tolerate her blathering when it's inappropriate. In my own experience, people like her usually don't get a clue without some type of intervention. She probably needs to be sat down at a moment of YOUR choosing and told that she's cost you money and time your students needed with her over-processing of plans, committee reviews, whatever.

From what I read in your posts, the woman seems to favor ambush tactics--she catches employees when they're not ready, but makes her lack of planning their "emergency". This is unacceptable and controlling behavior on her part. Not to mention that I seriously doubt that she's NOT aware of her "seniority" and holds a false sense of entitlement to lord it over you and others by monopolizing their time. I wish you the best in your future dealings with her--continue being consistent. Eventually, she'll figure out that "direct and succinct" is the way to go with you.

[tangentman]

To the rest of you: please keep in mind that changes don't always happen over-night. Especially when it comes to shy introverts learning to practice assertiveness. It's easier for extroverts to say what Gilda "needs to do" than it is for Gilda to instantly adopt such methods in her daily life. I'm aware that you all mean well, and don't question your sincerity. However, even well-meaning advice can come across as nagging when there's an implied expectation to "change right away".

[Sabrinaset]

I'm still waiting for my Gold Star from Gilda.

[Rachel Grey]

At this point Gilda the only thing you can do is apply a vulcan nerve pinch. She cant blab if she's unconsious.

[Gaz]

How would you categorize it, then? Not to single Gaz out, but he did define small talk as "feigning interest in things I don't care about, with people I don't care about."

Taking it out of context, I see. I was referring to these social functions that almost no-one actually wants to be at. I'm still not great at random conversation starting, but if I see a common point of interest, then I've got an in.

If you're gonna make friends, you pretty much have to meet 'em halfway, and implying that they and their opinions are worthless just doesn't qualify.

And just rude. I never said that. Never even implied that.

[Spike-X]

The hostage taker from last weekwas back today. My kids were filling in missing numbers in a hundred grid and finding patterns using the grid, when she decides I'm not busy and wants to talk about tomorrow's visit. I'm not sure if she understands that cirulating among the students and offering feedback as they work is just as important a part of the teaching/discipline process as initial instruction, but it doesn't seem so.

She's doing her thing, repeating the same information several times, and at first pause I tell her I really need to get back to my students. She says she understands, she'll just be another second, and continues talking. Next pause, I repeat that I need to get back to my students, who are by this time gradually finishing their initial assignments. She keeps talking. Next pause I tell her I really need to take care of my math right now, and she tells me she won't have time later on as she's going to be helping other teachers when she's done with me. I'm mentally screaming, 'So go. Leave. Help them. Leave me alone. I'm teaching math right now.'

A student walks up and waits, and I turn to look at her, and she starts to ask a question--just as she's been trained to do, well done. Hostage taker turns to her and says, "Miss Dent was talking to another adult. You need to wait your turn." Geez, is this woman completely clueless? I wasn't talking to her, she was talking at me and I was asking her to let me go back to my kids so I could, like, teach them, and here was a child asking for help, and I had signaled to the child that she could talk to me. I ask her what she needs, and she asks what she's supposed to do next. Having been distracted, I hadn't yet put out the supplemental excercise for those finishing early--kids turn in their paper to the math "finished" tray, and get the extra assignment from the tray next to it. I don't put them out until the main assignement is in progress because they're usually fun assignments and some kids will try to raid them ahead of time if given the chance.

I say, "Excuse me for a moment and walk over to the veritical file on my desk and remove the count-by-2's dot to dot that the kids would be doing, give them to the girl who was asking and tell her to put them in the tray. Hostage taker continues unabated. Two more students come up to me with questions, and both times I turn to the student and take their question. Hostage taker continues talking, but stops telling the students they shouldn't be talking to me.

She eventually finishes with her third repetition of her main points (there's a big inspection tomorrow of the reading program and she's worried) about how my centers should look to get the best score, then packs up and leaves in a hurry, because she hasn't much time.

I honestly don't understand how she can be in a hurry and still repeat things four times.

However, several of you were right. I was downright rude to her to her face, and she didn't even seem to notice or care, and it had no effect.

Short of telling her, "Shut the hell up and leave so I can teach math," I don't think I could have been more forceful and it had no effect.

I was, however, able to get a little work done while she was talking at me, so that was an improvement.

Gilda
Ok, I think I see the problem here.

You're reading from different scripts.

Your script acknowledges that your role is to be there for the children - they are the reason that you, the school, and Little Miss Chatterbox are there.

Her script, on the other hand, has her as the star of the show - you, the students, indeed the entire school, exist solely as a vehicle for her to implement her precious program.

[howyadoin]

Taking it out of context, I see. I was referring to these social functions that almost no-one actually wants to be at.Which, as I pointed out, is something that pretty much everybody has to deal with. It's part of everyday life for most of us, especially anybody who has a job.
I'm still not great at random conversation starting, but if I see a common point of interest, then I've got an in.Glad to hear it.

[Gilda Dent]

But so are verbal diarrhea and pathetic ego-stroking attempts to dominate the conversation.

Hee. There's actually a word for verbal diarrhea: logorrhea. It was the winning word in the Scripps national spelling be five or six years ago.

Gilda