With Black Canary not being in BoP OYL...

[synthetikdemon]

and her playing tonsil hockey with Bruce, and Batwoman coming back...is Dinah the new Batwoman?

Would DC have such a shift, has there been any word on Black Canary OYL ?

[mohammedali]

Or is Dinah a new villain. Who knows...

Mohammed Ali

[Rollo_Tomasi]

or maybe she dies during IC.

she hasn't been mentioned at all when it comes to Green Arrow OYL...

[GeorgeG]

Checkmate perhaps?

[milly3cat]

I am a big fan of black canary. I would buy any book with her in.

[mohammedali]

I doubt she's dead. Oracle seems a little pissed off with her rather than sad about her. See the BoP preview and it suggests either she's left BoP, or the superhero gig altogether.

Mohammed Ali

[Static-Pulse]

See the BoP preview and it suggests either she's left BoP, or the superhero gig altogether.Where is that? The #92 preview? (http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/OYLpreviews/day3.html)

[Sharpandpointies]

I suspect Canary has gone the way she thought she might if she had fully accepted Shiva's teaching - refer to her little Witch Canary' dream in Sensei and Student. I'm betting the person in the last panel of the preview is her.

Although the 'sent her to kill me' is a little off. I can't see her working for the bad guys directly.

But look at the silhouette. The gloves. The cuffs. The coat.

[Damo]

T______T

You know, I deliberately try not to look at BOP threads so that nothing is spoiled for me.

So hey, great big honking THANKS for having a spoiler right in your thread title. Very thoughtful of you.

[fuaak]

I suspect Canary has gone the way she thought she might if she had fully accepted Shiva's teaching - refer to her little Witch Canary' dream in Sensei and Student.
An obvious question: why and how would that happen, since as of the end of BG, Shiva's influence is no longer a factor?

[synthetikdemon]

An obvious question: why and how would that happen, since as of the end of BG, Shiva's influence is no longer a factor?


Or is it Selena under the cowl, now there is a new catwoman in town ?

[mohammedali]

Oracles reation to hearing the name Canary suggests she doesn't care too much for her. Had she died, I don't think she'd be so blunt. She would be more remorseful. It's obvious she's left BoP.

Mohammed Ali

[fuaak]

Or is it Selena under the cowl, now there is a new catwoman in town ?
Isn't Selina busy with her kid?

[Trusty Mutsi]

I second the thanks for NO SPOILER TAG!

But it's too late now, isn't it?

So Dinah is romantically involved with Bruce? When'd that happen? How?

I am sticking to TPBs and am very far behind, so I'm pretty out of the loop.

[milly3cat]

I second the thanks for NO SPOILER TAG!

But it's too late now, isn't it?

So Dinah is romantically involved with Bruce? When'd that happen? How?

I am sticking to TPBs and am very far behind, so I'm pretty out of the loop.

I think it is in BOP 90 where she kissed him at the end. For no reason

[Death's Head, yes?]

There was -SORT- of a reason. She gave Bruce an ultimatum a few issues earlier to let up on Huntress (Which I'm sure she never really thought he'd do. I mean, Batman---take advice???) and to say something nice to her. And in the end he looked at the work Huntress just did compling the mob bible and complimented Helena big-time.

I think Dinah was stunned/flattered as hell Batman actually listened to her and took her advice. The kiss did seem like a throwback to 70's characterization though, which would have been fine by itself if not made worse by her comments about it. Then it was like WTH???

[Sharpandpointies]

An obvious question: why and how would that happen, since as of the end of BG, Shiva's influence is no longer a factor?

Well, first of all there's every clue in the book that Shiva isn't going to remain dead.

But let's not talk about maybe-ressurections.

Beyond that, Canary is doing a lot of stuff that Shiva showed her. She's obviously very, very taken with Shiva, despite Shiva being a killer. She has respect for Shiva, oddly enough. Lots of it. And, more importantly, she could easily picture herself going down the vigilante road.

In fact, she has already started down that road, at least in the way she pictured it (becoming Shiva's student, then becoming a killer). She willfully accepts Shiva's knowledge (in the form of instructions on paper, but still). She takes her reccomendations. She didn't become a disciple of Shiva because she was worried about what it might do to her, and yet here she is, a disciple in all but name.

A lot of bad things have happened to Canary. She's had a tough time. She's been under a lot of pressure, from in the team and out. And she has started to do things some might consider questionable.

Take, for example, beating the crap out of Savant when he was working with them. Canary decides that in order to feel better about herself, about working with him, she has to lure him into a trap, cut off his chances to escape, and then beat him to the point of death (yep, she had him where she could have killed him). HUNTRESS is getting nervous and worried by how she's acting.

They then leave him there, bloodied and broken, on the floor.

It's a beautifully written issue in a lot of ways, but it isn't particularly heroic or compassionate. She brutalizes a man so she can feel better about herself - a man who has already 'given up his parole' to them, and is now working on their team. A man for whom the Birds hold responsibility. Not cool.

Oddly enough, I'm viewing the tough, nasty Helena as the conscience of the Birds these days.

The Sensei and Student arc seemed to spark some kind of change in Dinah. I could be completely wrong, here, but I think that One Year Later it's possible she isn't working for the same team as Oracle.

Maybe not for the Bad Guys - that wouldn't make sense, either. But as a vigilante?

*shrugs* If I'm way off base on this, I'm way off base.

[suprmn1982]

I DOUBT THEY'D PUT HER ON THE COVER IF SHE WASN'T GOING TO BE IN THE BOOK ANY MORE http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Mar06/DCU/BirdsOfPreyCv92.jpg

[Sharpandpointies]

I DOUBT THEY'D PUT HER ON THE COVER IF SHE WASN'T GOING TO BE IN THE BOOK ANY MORE http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Mar06/DCU/BirdsOfPreyCv92.jpg

Gail Simone herself has said that the cover is misleading.

Oracle has stated that Canary doesn't work for her any more, OYL (something like "Nobody by that name works for me").

Canary will likely, in the future, return to BoP. But as of the first issue of OYL, it would seem she isn't part of the team.

[Corrina]

It's a beautifully written issue in a lot of ways, but it isn't particularly heroic or compassionate. She brutalizes a man so she can feel better about herself - a man who has already 'given up his parole' to them, and is now working on their team. A man for whom the Birds hold responsibility. Not cool.



A man who broke both her legs, her arm, and choked her and damaged her throat enough so she couldn't talk. Not to mention the plan to kill her.

[Lubichev]

Gail Simone herself has said that the cover is misleading.


And I will say that this cover looks terrible. Ick.

[Captain Jim]

Okay, I flipped through the first-look copy at my retailer's yesterday. Anybody game for some spoilers? Don't panic; I'm making it your choice. ;)

First of all, about Dinah...

Now, mind you, I only breezed through the book quickly. But it appeared that, though Dinah wasn't with the rest of the team, she was seen elsewhere in the book, in a sub-plot of her own.

What about the new member? Anybody want to know that? This one really shocked me.

The newest member of BOP is Shiva. Wow, this has got to be one of the shortest deaths on record.

Now, PLEASE, if you're going to comment on any of this in the remainder of the thread, make sure you cover your remarks as I did: [spoil ] [/spoil ].

[Sharpandpointies]

A man who broke both her legs, her arm, and choked her and damaged her throat enough so she couldn't talk. Not to mention the plan to kill her.

Villains do this to heroes all the time. The fact that heroes don't do this in return is what sets them apart from villains.

Yes, it's understandable. Yes, I can empathize with her plight.

But taking a time out to deliver a personal, brutal beating to someone who hurt you in the past, who has been given the chance to try to redeem themselves...this is not heroic. It's self-gratification through the pain of another. It's going beyond what is necessary, and into the realm of 'I caused pain because it would make me feel a little better.'

I understand Dinah's plight. I comprehend why she did it. And it was written well.

But it wasn't a high point for the character. She trapped someone who was working on her side. She beat him bloody. She threatened him with death. It wasn't a heroic moment.

Which is fine, in a comic. These are human beings, and for them to be perfect would be boring. My favourite character is Shiva - I'm not arguing that Dinah has to be perfect to be interesting.

I'm just saying that she wasn't standing on any moral high ground when she did that. She was wrong, pure and simple.

Your milage may vary. :)

[Sharpandpointies]

The newest member of BOP is Shiva. Wow, this has got to be one of the shortest deaths on record.
.

Okay. On the one hand, obviously I'm dead wrong with one of my thoughts on BoP OYL. On the other, I'm cursed happy that something I've been predicting for a long time has come true (partly).

:D

I can even forgive the rapid rebirth if my favourite woman is back and looking for some redemption!

[Captain Jim]

Nobody else read my spoilers? :(

[Maleficentogre]

I read them, but I don't know what to say. I'm excited for it though. any clue as to what dinah is doing?

[ChthonicSpirit]

Nobody else read my spoilers? :(

I'm forcing myself not to . . . I have the strength to wait for the issue itself. ;)

I do.

I DO!

*headdesk*

[ChthonicSpirit]

A man who broke both her legs, her arm, and choked her and damaged her throat enough so she couldn't talk. Not to mention the plan to kill her.

A few minor details . . .
-Creote damaged her throat
-she broke the hand herself, when she was escaping the handcuffs
-According to Savant, killing her was not part of the plan

But yeah, point taken. I think it was the thing with her legs that she was the most angry about.

I too was troubled by her threats to kill or cripple Savant, but the fight itself was necessary. She couldn't forget until she'd had the chance to face him on equal terms. I think he himself understood that.

[Sharpandpointies]

I too was troubled by her threats to kill or cripple Savant, but the fight itself was necessary. She couldn't forget until she'd had the chance to face him on equal terms. I think he himself understood that.

Again, your milage may vary. :)

I didn't see the need for it. And she could have ASKED him if all she wanted was to prove she could beat him. I seriously doubt Savant would have refused, and if he did that might have been enough.

But giving him no choice but to fight? And I don't see the fact that Savant understands as making it any more heroic - look who Savant is.

To reiterate - I understand why she did what she did. It's a very human thing to do. It makes sense, and it's a dramatic scene to boot. It's just that from any angle I view it, it isn't heroic. And it isn't morally justifiable.

[fuaak]

Nobody else read my spoilers? :(
I did, and my verdict is that it's an example of disappointing backpedaling that robs the final issue of Batgirl of whatever significance it had.

It doesn't even make sense unless we assume that Shiva is an idiot who can't recognize that she'll fall into the pit in a short while, and that Cassandra's motives for abandoning her mantle belong to the UFO territory.

[Wormella]

as misleading as that cover may or may not be - there's more then one extra person climbing out of that helicopter....

[Mon-el]

Nobody else read my spoilers? :(

I did, but then again I own and read the Issue before doing so.

My only question is to who exactly the mysterious invisible character that was revealed with Huntress and Shiva at the Hospital? after she appeared you could hardly make out to who it was in the background. And in the back of the Issue you see the cover with the mysterious figure revealed on the cover blurb, but it's still kinda too small to make it out.

[20yrslater]

I thought maybe Zatanna? , but if Oracle is now hiring assasins, maybe it's Chesire.

[fuaak]

I thought maybe Zantanna? , but if Oraclae is now hiring assasins, maybe it's Chesire.

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zatanna071md.jpg

[Mon-el]

I thought maybe Zantanna? , but if Oraclae is now hiring assasins, maybe it's Chesire.

I was hoping you would reply 20yrslater.

I seen that you read the Issue the same day last week that I did in the OYL thread on DC Universe board.

I do not think that it's either of those 2, I'm not saying that it couldn't be, it is possible. Like I said the only appearance of her is in the cover blurb at the end of the Issue. Where it says "the new birds stealth agent is revealed for #93."

I have heard rumours that it could be Gypsy.

Whoever it is, has black hair, wearing a necklace as the one seen from Batman Son of the Demon(only red) a torqouise low cut shirt, with a black jacket on with pink sleeve edges at the forearm, and what appears to be 3 small bracelets on her right arm, Also she appears to have a jewelery type of belt on. and wears pants, and she can turn invisible.

[Static-Pulse]

June solicits make it pretty clear... Or at the very least intimate very heavily.

[fuaak]

The June solicits also imply what happened to Cassandra...

Apparently she and Shiva pulled a little switcheroo. Now Shiva works with Oracle and Cass is the leader of the LoA.

[Sharpandpointies]

The June solicits also imply what happened to Cassandra...

Apparently she and Shiva pulled a little switcheroo. Now Shiva works with Oracle and Cass is the leader of the LoA.

The hell? Now this I do NOT like. -_-

Then again, it might actually mean that Shiva WINS a fight against Cass at some point in the future...nah, probably not.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by fuaak

The June solicits also imply what happened to Cassandra...

Apparently she and Shiva pulled a little switcheroo. Now Shiva works with Oracle and Cass is the leader of the LoA.

Or maybe the switcheroo means they also switched minds like some bad 80's movie. That'd explain everything.