Batgirl/Cassandra's future

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm just curious, has anyone heard what Cass will be doing OYL? I know she's supposed to show up in Robin as a possible villain, has anyone heard anything more concrete?

Also, does anyone know why she got the shaft like she did? She's got the strongest internal dynamics of the entire Batclan outside of Batman and they brush her to the side. WTF?

[fuaak]

I'm just curious, has anyone heard what Cass will be doing OYL? I know she's supposed to show up in Robin as a possible villain, has anyone heard anything more concrete?
Nope.

Also, does anyone know why she got the shaft like she did? She's got the strongest internal dynamics of the entire Batclan outside of Batman and they brush her to the side. WTF?
Sales that were steadily dwindling, even if the mag was still profitable, methinks.

Cass has gotten screwed in a lot of ways over the six years she's been around. Right from the start DC completely messed up her introduction - they spend dozens of issues in NML introducing an unknown new Batgirl, then they reveal she's Huntress and replace her with Cass in two issues? WTF? Then she was the only Bat character who got no teamup book and almost no guest appearances, and after the original Puckett/Scott team left she got shafted by a parade of mediocre/awful or just wrong artists and whole creative teams... She also got f'ed by the status quo changes that separated her from her best supporting characters, Oracle* and Spoiler. Batgirl's ongoing was once one of DC's top ten sellers, but it almost seems the DC editorial has done everything they could to push her down.


*) I'm of the opinion that wherever Babs is, Cass should be there and the other way around. The implications of your mentor being a wheelchair-bound former wearer of the same costume that stands as a permanent reminder of what happens if you slip are too good to miss.

[Brack360]

Her "final fate" is supposed to be revealed in Robin #150.

DC is today being controlled by writers and editors who grew up during the Silver Age and are bringing back characters from that period. Nearly every new character that has been introduced in the 90's or early 2000's is either being killed off, put in comic book limbo, or otherwise giving up their super-hero moniker. This includes Azrael, Spoiler, the Linda Danvers Supergirl, Connor Hawke, Kyle Raynor (now Ion), and others. At the same time, we have seen the returns of Kara Zor-El, Oliver Queen, and Hal Jordan. I don't think Dan Didio really liked Cassandra; I still don't understand why she was never added to Teen Titans or The Outsiders, where she would have been a perfect fit and gotten more exposure.

[Gingold]

I don't think the character ever really clicked with fans in a big way. It sold well initially because it was a new Batman-related book. People lost interest quickly. The character wasn't all that interesting. She didn't fill any niche that wasn't already filled by Robin, Spoiler, Huntress or Oracle. And the costume was ugly.

[fuaak]

I don't think the character ever really clicked with fans in a big way.
How could she, when she never got a fair break?

The character wasn't all that interesting. She didn't fill any niche that wasn't already filled by Robin, Spoiler, Huntress or Oracle.
A grievous misconception that DC allowed to get all too common. She's nothing like any of those characters, and just about the only DC character I'd describe as having a unique and well-defined personality.

[Gingold]

How could she, when she never got a fair break?

Her series ran about 75 issues. That's a better break than most new characters or series get.

She just never seemed to have a well-defined place within the already crowded Bat-family. Though to be honest, I've been biased against her from the start. The adventures of Cassandra Cain: ninja with a heart, might very well be interesting, but it's not Batgirl to me. I had the same problem with the often well-written stories of Linda Danvers: protoplasm angel. It's cute, but it's not Supergirl.

[jadrax]

I think its a shame Batgirl has been canceled, 75 issues is a long run for a solo staring female book and I think it showed that the charicter did have a fan base that could have been built upon.

I'm still holding out insane hope she becomes Batwoman.

[fuaak]

Her series ran about 75 issues. That's a better break than most new characters or series get.
I'm surprised it lasted that long with the way she almost never appeared outside it. She was the only Bat character without a team book, made a tiny fraction of the guest appearances of either Nightwing or Robin (let alone the big Bat himself), and was reduced to a trivial, cameo-like role in the big crossovers. DC didn't support her.

Where was she supposed to get her new readers when she was cornered into her own little world like that? People don't just pick up solo books to try them out (and with all the artist/writer problems her series had, even that wouldn't have helped that much).

If anything, her solo mag staying profitable for 75 issues despite being ostracized like that and through all the difficulties is indicative of the strength of the character. All she needs is good creators and some editorial love.

[Choppa]

At the same time, we have seen the returns of Kara Zor-El

Return? I thought that she never existed in Post Crisis continuity until she appeared in that recent S/B arc?

[Choppa]

Oh, and Azrael and Batgirl are very simliar.

[fuaak]

Return? I thought that she never existed in Post Crisis continuity until she appeared in that recent S/B arc?
No she didn't, but that's just a technicality. Kara isn't what you'd call a "new" character. More of a remix of a precrisis one.

[fuaak]

Oh, and Azrael and Batgirl are very simliar.
Only on the surface. Azrael resembled her the most out of the pre-existing characters at the time, what with his background story and all, but they still appeared different when seen next to each other, had different abilities and Az couldn't have really filled Cass's role - he wasn't vulnerable the way Cass was.

(And it's a moot point anyway since Azrael has been MIA for years and is expected to never return.)

[Choppa]

No she didn't, but that's just a technicality. Kara isn't what you'd call a "new" character. More of a remix of a precrisis one.

Okay I just wanted to make sure b/c I finally thought I had figured out which Supergirl was who and that threw me for a loop. And as for my Azrael comment, it's not really related to anything, I just wanted to say it because I strongly believe it.

[Young Avenger]

Maybe Cassandra will be the mysterious new member of Birds of Prey in OYL.

[EZMOHR]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again....it's a shame this Batgirl series is being cancelled because people seemed to sure love her. But, I never liked the character. People loved her for the same reasons they hate Echo in Daredevil/New Avengers. It's just freaky. Just my opinion.

[mohammedali]

I'm thinking she'll turn up in BoP, but not as a member. I'm going to make a thread about this in a bit.

Mohammed Ali

[The_DUKE_inc]

Never really clicked with Cass mostly because I didn't see how her character related to the rest of the Batfamily(besides Oracle) I can't think of a single scene or moment between her and Nightwing or Robin or Alfred that defines their relationship. She felt very much one-note.

Not to mention her few rabid fans seemed to hype her up to uber status to the point where I really could care less for her. Just do a search in rumbles forum and you'll know what I mean.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Never really clicked with Cass mostly because I didn't see how her character related to the rest of the Batfamily(besides Oracle) I can't think of a single scene or moment between her and Nightwing or Robin or Alfred that defines their relationship. She felt very much one-note.

Not to mention her few rabid fans seemed to hype her up to uber status to the point where I really could care less for her. Just do a search in rumbles forum and you'll know what I mean.

The reason why she seemed one note in relation to the other Batclan members is because writers never took the time to have her properly interact with them.

I enjoyed the character because she in a very real way had the strongest origin of the Batclan. Oracle was grandfathered in (starting her career because of a crush and for kicks to eventually becoming Oracle), Nightwing's origin and character is defined by him not being Batman, and Robin was just a kid genius who decided to be Batman.

Cass, on the other hand, had a far more compelling and tragic reason for being a hero. Abused all her life until her first and only kill, struggling to redeem herself. In many ways, it's the reverse of Batman (whereas his life was defined by a crime committed against him, Cass' life was defined by a crime she committed).

And personality wise, there's loads of material. She can outfight Shiva, but can't read the newspaper. Everything we take for granted is new and strange to her. In many ways, she's an innocent child in the worst city in the world fighting the worst kind of scum.

She's a study in contrast. Raised on violence, she's fairly passive. In No Man's Land, it wasn't until her father showed up that anyone had any real idea of her combat abilities. She took down Two-Face painlessly. She'd rather be Batgirl than Cassandra Cain and while she is probably the world's greatest martial artist, she's emotionally stunted (following Batman unquestionably, for starters).

If that's not character material, what is?

[The_DUKE_inc]

The reason why she seemed one note in relation to the other Batclan members is because writers never took the time to have her properly interact with them.

I enjoyed the character because she in a very real way had the strongest origin of the Batclan. Oracle was grandfathered in (starting her career because of a crush and for kicks to eventually becoming Oracle), Nightwing's origin and character is defined by him not being Batman, and Robin was just a kid genius who decided to be Batman.

Cass, on the other hand, had a far more compelling and tragic reason for being a hero. Abused all her life until her first and only kill, struggling to redeem herself. In many ways, it's the reverse of Batman (whereas his life was defined by a crime committed against him, Cass' life was defined by a crime she committed).

And personality wise, there's loads of material. She can outfight Shiva, but can't read the newspaper. Everything we take for granted is new and strange to her. In many ways, she's an innocent child in the worst city in the world fighting the worst kind of scum.

She's a study in contrast. Raised on violence, she's fairly passive. In No Man's Land, it wasn't until her father showed up that anyone had any real idea of her combat abilities. She took down Two-Face painlessly. She'd rather be Batgirl than Cassandra Cain and while she is probably the world's greatest martial artist, she's emotionally stunted (following Batman unquestionably, for starters).

If that's not character material, what is?

Nice points, I only wish we could have seen her in relation to the rest of the Batfamily more. I'm almost inclined to believe it might have served her character better if she wasn't tied with the Bat mythology and instead DC created her own distinct superheroine persona. Maybe they'll do that OYL...

[Damo]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again....it's a shame this Batgirl series is being cancelled because people seemed to sure love her. But, I never liked the character. People loved her for the same reasons they hate Echo in Daredevil/New Avengers. It's just freaky. Just my opinion.

Dude, I hate Echo in New Avengers because she was drawn like a man for several issues.

Not like a girl pretending to be a guy. Like a man. There's no way in blazes the Echo we finally see unmasked, the one we saw in Daredevil, should have the thick MAN HANDS we saw when she was disguised.

Suspension of Disbelief my ass, drawing a very obviously male man and pretending it could be the disguise of a VERY obviously female woman just lame.

As for Cass. Honestly, I'm not normally one to blame a character's lack of popularity on bad writers/artists.

But.

She just plum had a succession of bad writers and artists. Or at least bad stories. I can think of only a few genuinely good issues in the run, and most of those involved Shiva. Cass was a perfect vehicle for dusting off some forgotten martial artists as threats. Instead she got "guy with gun" then "another guy with gun" then "yet another guy with gun" followed by "very uninteresting 'love interest' villain with wind powers". She was a great character, and she was put into one story after another that just wasted her potential.

[comicfreak]

I think that Andersen Gabrych, her current writer, had some strong points during his run. It seemed to me, that after the Pucket/Scott Run Batgirl finally had a strong creative team. Gabrych must have had many plans for Batgirl but sadly with Infinite Crisis coming he had to cut them short, or so it seemed.
I will miss Batgirl, greatly. She was one of my most favourite female DC Character. And I can only hope, that she will return, hopefully alive!

[fuaak]

Gabrych must have had many plans for Batgirl but sadly with Infinite Crisis coming he had to cut them short, or so it seemed.
You can say that again. They clearly went for a fresh new start after War Games, and spent page after page building her a new supporting cast from scratch and setting little sub-plots into motion - and then some editor just waltzes in and tells Andy Gabe to throw all that into garbage. Poof, Chemo goes off, series over. They resolved almost nothing.

[Captain Jim]

I find myself agreeing with many of the previous comments. I have to admit, I was never a big Cassandra fan.

I, too, have wondered if she might show up in BOP.

As to why her book was cancelled. Well, declining sales had to be part of it, but I can't help but believe that the rumored Batwoman title was a factor as well (assuming the rumors are true). I don't think the sales were bad enough yet to do it by themselves.

[IamtheRock3]

well her comic wasnt a BLOCKBUSTER

but it made DC a profit, heck does better then some of the DC comics still around

Think she a victim of new managment and new direction

[Static-Pulse]

If that's not character material, what is?Emo. If Cass was more emo, less confident, and less capable, her book would have soared -- look at what being turned into a simpering twit did for Stargirl's popularity! She needed to question her motives more. Lie to her allies. Then she should have been raped or stabbed. And to top it off, David Cane should have been killed. Character material is nice in theory, but she needed more emo.

By the way, I'm being sardonic! Your post explains why she's a great character with wonderful potential. My above reasons, though, are just my feelings why the book didn't sell.

[milly3cat]

Now that cass has been in the pit, does she have new powers now. Like lady Freeze.

[MythicBrawn]

She doesn't need to be Batgirl. If anything DC needs to trim the Batman family herd. This one could be the first to go. For a loner, Bruce sure has a large extended family.

[mohammedali]

Mrs Freeze had more powers because she had absorbed loads of chemicals etc after she had 'died'. The only difference Batgirl should have is she might be a little crazy.

Mohammed Ali

[jadrax]

My above reasons, though, are just my feelings why the book didn't sell.

Erm, it was hardly not selling. It pretty much stayed around the 26-28k mark, thats better than a whole host of titles that diden't get canned. (Including Catwoman and LotDK)

[The Cool Thatguy]

She doesn't need to be Batgirl. If anything DC needs to trim the Batman family herd. This one could be the first to go. For a loner, Bruce sure has a large extended family.

Why does Batman need to be a loner? He's had Robin since the 40s. Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl and Oracle. Remove Nightwing, who works best outside the Bat verse anyways, and that's only three people with each having a well defined role. I kinda liked the idea of Bruce replacing his real family with an adopted one. Batman without foils is just bland, and Cass could have been an excellent one.

[seaflower]

I think one of the reason why I am a Cassie Batgirl fan is because I love how Grayson presented her in GK. Issue #2 does an excellent job really digging into her character and I love how she was developed a bit more during Bruce Wayne Murder. I think many writers just didn't take the time to bring her further into the Batfamily.

[Max_Dillon]

Never really clicked with Cass mostly because I didn't see how her character related to the rest of the Batfamily(besides Oracle) I can't think of a single scene or moment between her and Nightwing or Robin or Alfred that defines their relationship. She felt very much one-note.


Nightwing and Cass pretty much had a nonexistent relationship(it would have been great to see them team up though). Last I remember, Alfred helped her move into her HQ in Bludhaven and he pretty much treated her as well as he treats any of Batman's pupils. Cassie and Tim's relationship was defined in both of their books as pretty much the polar opposite of Barbara and Dick's relationship when they were Batgirl and Robin(which I found very cool, it would have been corny if they rehashed the old "robin loves batgirl" stuff). They both had respect and were down to look out for each other, but Tim for some reason or another never fully warmed up to Cassandra and she pretty much knew that he didn't like her. Their relationship had a lot more room for development, HOPEFULLY that will one day be able to continue.

Hopefully she is Batwoman, I really don't see any other character that would be able to fill that role besides her. Plus, I feel fans were robbed with the way her and Batman's relationship was handled, outside of her title they hardly had any memorable interaction which was a shame.

[Damo]

Again, she just plum got hosed in terms of villains. Street thug after street thug... I can understand why it was done. But looking back it didn't work for me. The Shiva stories were gold because they were what Batgirl should have been all along.

There was a good try in the last few issues. But

1. Bringing back the tragic figure of Nora Fries as a lame supervillain... there should have been a public flogging for that.

2. When the best reputation of the martial artists in your new League of Assassins belongs to Shrike... that's a bad thing. A very very very bad thing.

3. Mad Dog talked like a bad Gollum-style character, and it was annoying, my precious.