Frank Miller outright said All-Star Batman is a parody

[literally exaggerated]

Or, at least that part of his intention with the comic was to commentate on what he percieves as excessive darkness in the industry, including through parody. This was at NYC Con last week.

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that its good. Parody can be bad (DKSA, for instance), and even I have some problems with ASB&R (3 issues in and they're not even out of the batmobile, for one), but it does at least explain things a bit further. Batman is so ridiculously over the top grim/crazy/hyperviolent, and Robin's there to basically say "this is the stupidest shit I have ever seen" and to get Batman to return to his true self.

[OverMaster]

Or, at least that part of his intention with the comic was to commentate on what he percieves as excessive darkness in the industry, including through parody. This was at NYC Con last week.

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that its good. Parody can be bad (DKSA, for instance), and even I have some problems with ASB&R (3 issues in and they're not even out of the batmobile, for one), but it does at least explain things a bit further. Batman is so ridiculously over the top grim/crazy/hyperviolent, and Robin's there to basically say "this is the stupidest shit I have ever seen" and to get Batman to return to his true self.

Then I'd have placed it in other line instead of All-Star. Maybe a new line for parody/humor comics: Lobo could find a new good home there...

[Mister Intensity]

Something that a lot of people don't get is that The Dark Knight Returns was also a parody. In fact, the only Batman story that Frank Miller has ever written that isn't a parody is Batman: Year One.

Mister Intensity

[Maleficentogre]

the problem with all star is that its not fun to read so much. I think everyone realized it wasn't a real story around the time of ". . . I'm the goddamn batman."

[Marc Spector]

Something that a lot of people don't get is that The Dark Knight Returns was also a parody. In fact, the only Batman story that Frank Miller has ever written that isn't a parody is Batman: Year One.

Mister Intensity

Year One was definitely more 'real'.

Dark Knight exaggerates the characters and situations, while at the same time being 'gritty'...but I don't think that makes it a parody. My impression is that Miller was being intensely serious on Dark Knight, while on All-Star he's just having fun.

Can you expand on your ideas about this?

[cactusmaac]

DKR was being parodic in some instances such as the depiction of the psychologist, Reagan etc. but not as a work in whole.

[Mister Intensity]

Year One was definitely more 'real'.

Dark Knight exaggerates the characters and situations, while at the same time being 'gritty'...but I don't think that makes it a parody. My impression is that Miller was being intensely serious on Dark Knight, while on All-Star he's just having fun.

Can you expand on your ideas about this?

I didn't say it was primarily a parody of Batman, although Batman is the point of view character who is commenting on the absurd society around him and by exagerating some of the "Dark Knight" aspects of the character there is some commentary of the absurdity of the concept.

Then again, maybe Frank Miller only cares about what he finds funny.

Mister Intensity

[tomasej]

(3 issues in and they're not even out of the batmobile, for one)

so he's parodying this lengthen the story out as much as possible trend; sort of the ultimate decompression except with snappy diologue.

There were a lot of bits of parody in DKR. I've always thought of it as kind of a Judge Dredd-type Batman story. Deadly serious guy trying to do his job in an insane world that is a parody of the real world. Not as over the top as Dredd and a bit more serious in tone, but still similar.

[Error_2.0]

Well it all makes sense now and makes it not bad...BUT it should not have been the All-Star Batman title. This should've been something else and it should have been advertised as a parody of how ridiculously dark Batman books have become. The All-Star line should've been treated with respect and given a real story.

[AlistairCrane]

Something that a lot of people don't get is that The Dark Knight Returns was also a parody. In fact, the only Batman story that Frank Miller has ever written that isn't a parody is Batman: Year One.

Mister Intensity

Interestingly enough, Y1 happens to be the only Miller Bat story I like.

[mohammedali]

I think Miller has a 'tongue in cheek' nature to his writings, and hence part of his story uses parodys, but DKR overall was anything but a parody. It was an interesting story that looked at the Batverse if time didn't stand still like it usually does. As cactusmaac said, DKR may show parodys or stereotypes of certian characters, but it is by no means a parody itself as there was nothing like DKR before it. Hence there is nothing it could have been a parody of.
As for Miller recently, I'm losing respect for his work. I'm not as against his ASBR as some people, but I think he's being too lazy, and relying more on shock and awe than on actual content. Often when Miller does some good work, people focus on the areas that shocked them. It seems he's now just relying on the shock, and not the story. Miller, if you're reading this, it's time to fix up :D

Mohammed Ali

[SamuelCollins]

If you recall at the time, there were no serious Batman stories. In fact, Batman was often being written as a sort of Sherlock Holmes with a cape. There was intrigue, humor, and often romance. There was, however, no darkness. This was what made Frank's ideas so unusual and rebellious.

Frank Miller wrote The Dark Knight Returns to show everyone that the 80's sensibilities, and similarly the 80's interpretation of Batman as naive and unrealistic. Frank Miller transported us into the future, with crime and homelessness running rampant, to show Reaganism's inadequacy. The only parody was that of the character of Superman--his slavish attitude towards the government. In fact, if you'll recall, there was a panel depicting Supes in glorius sunshine, long, windblown hair, and butterflies landing on his leg. In the background, grim and grizzled by reality, was Bruce Wayne. Understandably, these ideas, and others like it, spawned a slew of people who agreed with Miller.

As far as the All-Star Batman is concerned, I find its interesting that Frank is helming the comic; he is, after all, the man who drove home the idea of a Dark Knight with the power of a nuclear missile (literally).

[SamuelCollins]

I happen to be pro Reagan, including his policies, and yet even I understand what Miller was trying to say. Anyone who thinks Miller's Batman was anything but a counter-cultural statement simply was not of voting age at the time.

[atoningunifex]

Well it all makes sense now and makes it not bad...BUT it should not have been the All-Star Batman title. This should've been something else and it should have been advertised as a parody of how ridiculously dark Batman books have become. The All-Star line should've been treated with respect and given a real story.

The All-Star line is a creator driven line. It isn't about the characters- it's about the writers and artists, the All-Stars of the industry. That's the gimmick of the All Star Line. There is no promise that the stories will be respectful or serious, simply that they will be stories told by the stars of the industry. Miller and Lee are both All-Stars. If they choose to do a satiric version of the grim-n-gritty Batman then that fits the requirements of the All-Star line.

And parody is a legitimate storytelling tool. Parody and satire have been around as long as literature has. Just because something is a parody or satire doesn't make it a "fake" story- it just makes it a story with a different purpose. Occasionally the Emperor needs to be informed that he's wearing no clothes.

[Forefinger]

Miller just had to say something in response to everyone else saying that Assbat sucks.

[CaptainAwesome]

You guys keep saying ASB&R wasnt an "All-Star" story. But wasnt it the first "All-Star" story? So doesnt it have the right to make up its own rules as to what an "all-Star" story is? It just seems like you guys were hoping for one thing, but when it turned out differently you were dissapointed and you call it a bad story. That doesnt seem fair to the book, or the creative team.

[lordlad]

it's a parody alright.......that wasn't even funny or at least amusing.....

where's the frank miller that wrong DKR and DD Born Again ?

[stillanerd]

Or, at least that part of his intention with the comic was to commentate on what he percieves as excessive darkness in the industry, including through parody. This was at NYC Con last week.

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that its good. Parody can be bad (DKSA, for instance), and even I have some problems with ASB&R (3 issues in and they're not even out of the batmobile, for one), but it does at least explain things a bit further. Batman is so ridiculously over the top grim/crazy/hyperviolent, and Robin's there to basically say "this is the stupidest shit I have ever seen" and to get Batman to return to his true self.

Oh, NOW you tell us, Frank. :rolleyes: I mean, I suspected as much and I'll admit we probably should've figured it out sooner what with the Vicki in her undies, Bruce acting like a stalker to Dick Grayson, and the "What are you retarded? I'm the goddamn Batman" comment among others. Unfortunately, satire isn't exactly his storng suit because nobody seems to get the joke. Same thing happened with DK2. And if the industry is excessively dark, then I'm afraid Miller himself shares some of the responsibility for that.

[the goddamn batman]

Unfortunately, satire isn't exactly his storng suit because nobody seems to get the joke. Same thing happened with DK2. And if the industry is excessively dark, then I'm afraid Miller himself shares some of the responsibility for that.


Wow, you guys didn't see the parody? WOW :eek:

First, if you don't get Millers humor, that does not mean HE needs to get with it, it means you need to get with it.

Second, Miller isn't to blame for the darker tone in comics. Sure he was one of the first guys to play with the darker tone, but it's not like he was hangin around comic offices holding guns to heads forcing others to copy what he did. All Miller did was do something original, and others followed, Miller isn't to blame for those who copied him. The copy cats are to blame. Blaming Miller is only shifting the blame. You can't blame the original influence, for unoriginality.

I'm working, no time to spell check, sorry.

[Maleficentogre]

some of his stuff just isn't funny.

[Grant]

some of his stuff just isn't funny.

It was pretty funny when he smacked Robin.

[the goddamn batman]

it's very funny. All-Star has been quite funny after issue 2 made the parody apparent. issue 3 was kinda boring, lateness is killing my interest, but aside from that, it's been a great ride. Thats all I ever expected.

[Wheel Of Fate]

Wow, you guys didn't see the parody? WOW :eek:

First, if you don't get Millers humor, that does not mean HE needs to get with it, it means you need to get with it.

Second, Miller isn't to blame for the darker tone in comics. Sure he was one of the first guys to play with the darker tone, but it's not like he was hangin around comic offices holding guns to heads forcing others to copy what he did. All Miller did was do something original, and others followed, Miller isn't to blame for those who copied him. The copy cats are to blame. Blaming Miller is only shifting the blame. You can't blame the original influence, for unoriginality.

True. Miller's not to blame for the darker tone in comics: the audience that thought DKR was absolutely awesome when it first came out - myself included - is to blame for creating a market for it. Increased demand led to an increase in supply by any comic company that wanted to keep its fanbase happy.

(This is what happens when an artform geared towards little kids like comics gets co-opted by an older fanbase. Unfortunate; having gone this route, does the comics industry alienate its new older fanbase by toning down the presentation to pre-DKR levels, or do the kids get treated to a "Johnny DC" version of the Sue Dibny rape scene just to break them in for The Hard Stuff? Yeah, I know, another thread for another time...)

And having read (and - cringe - bought) the first two issues of ASB&R, I can't see how ANYone could have thought "parody". Rather my thought was "writer called 'Genius' one time too many given too much free reign". I leafed through the Black Canary issue and decided my money was better spent elsewhere. (Would that I'd reached this same conclusion when faced with the possibility of buying the execrable DK2...)

Myself, I'm waiting for "All-Star Sugar 'N Spike"... or "All-Star Monster Society of Evil"...

[the goddamn batman]

I don't know, I think its kinda brilliant to throw s#!t back in peoples faces. More so when they don't get that you're doing it.

[The_DUKE_inc]

OH I GET IT NOW!! Thanks Frank! I forgot whata genius you are...you know we're just a bunch of stupid comic fans....our bad...we just couldn't get past your plodding story, lack of focus, inane dialogue, and absurd plot, but hell at least Jim Lee can sure draw a damn good looking Viki Vale! ;)

[the goddamn batman]

you know we're just a bunch of stupid comic fans....


calm down dude, nobody said you were stupid, obviously Frank thought we comic fans would get it. If you didn't/don't get it, remember YOU called yourself stupid, it wasn't Frank. Frank had faith you would get it. However, you not getting something, doesn't mean it's calling you stupid.

Your attempt at furthering the silly stigma that creators are giant boogeymen out to make fun of their fan base/readership IS stupid.

[Trey Krimsin]

Maybe it's a parody, but Frank Miller's pacing sure stinks. How does a photo of Dick Grayson end up on a milk carton while he's still in the process of being kidnapped? Explain that to me, and maybe I'll understand this story. Maybe...

[the goddamn batman]

well now, I know this is going to sound crazy, but bare with me here as I venture in to uncharted territory.

If you keep reading... I'm sure it will all be explained in future issues.

It's called a mystery. They hand you pieces out of order, and bring it all together at the end.

I know it sounds obsurd that sequential story telling requires you to keep reading to understand whats happening.

and to think comic fans say they don't like to be spoon fed stories :rolleyes:

[Totoro Man]

yeah, Miller's obviously decided to move in the opposite direction of "the Dark Knight Returns". it took a second or third reading of tDKSA before I realized where Miller was going with that. the first time was basically "WTF?!?"

Batman has a long history of camp and goofiness... I never bothered reading the All-Star Batman and Robin title because I figured Miller probably couldn't do the parody any better than he already did with DKSA.

[enediol]

Wow, you guys didn't see the parody? WOW :eek:

First, if you don't get Millers humor, that does not mean HE needs to get with it, it means you need to get with it.


At this point - the only thing I'm getting with is not buying his book. How's that? I don't get the parody because I don't get the book therefore DC doesn't get my sales and somehow think this shit is passable.

As far as I'm concerned Miller is over rated and what's actually happening is he's wiping his ass and then submitting the used toilet paper to DC for All Star Batman & Robin.

Excellent art though - I've never seen shit look so good. Even with peanuts for texture.

[IamtheRock3]

I dont know

I like the book..but he changes explanations like the wind

Think he just like making himself laugh

Also a differnce between satarie and Parody.

[Sabrinaset]

I think he HAS to call it satire to the fan base because no one can take it seriously at this point. If he'd written it better, he wouldn't be saying it.

[the goddamn batman]

At this point - the only thing I'm getting with is not buying his book. How's that?


you address that to me like I care if you get it, buy it, or use it as toilet paper.

Listen dude, I don't care one single ounce what you do. Where it is that you came up with this half cocked notion that I give two flying fish about what you buy or don't buy, baffles me to no end. My point was that Frank is not the comic fan boogeyman. Nothing else.

[Sabrinaset]

you address that to me like I care if you get it, buy it, or use it as toilet paper.

Listen Betty, I don't care one single ounce what you do. Where it is that you came up with this half cocked notion that I give two flying fish about what you buy or don't buy, baffles me to no end. My point was that Frank is not the comic fan boogeyman. Nothing else.

Uhm, he's addressing it to you because you're the one defending what Frank does.

I know that you and I have disagreed in the past ourselves, but I kinda think name calling is beneath you. Unless the posters name IS Betty. Just be careful, 'kay?

He's not slamming you, he's slamming the book.

[stillanerd]

Wow, you guys didn't see the parody? WOW :eek:

First, if you don't get Millers humor, that does not mean HE needs to get with it, it means you need to get with it.

I never said I didn't SEE the parody, I just wasn't sure WHAT he was paroding. For all I knew, he could've been poking fun at the campy 60s TV series or Mickey Spaline books or even himself. If you can't understand what the parody is supposed to be of, then it's not an effective parody. And again, because Miller has previously built his reputation for noirish-like comics such as Daredevil, Ronin, The Dark Knight Return, Sin City, etc. it's pretty hard to associate him with parody, which is why Dark Knight Strikes Again, which was marketed as a sequel to DK2 wasn't that well received critically. (There were some satirical jabs in Give Me Liberty, but overall, the tone was still pretty serious). Plus, All-Star Batman and Robin was not originally marketed as one but rather as a modern retelling of a classic dynamic duo story.


Second, Miller isn't to blame for the darker tone in comics. Sure he was one of the first guys to play with the darker tone, but it's not like he was hangin around comic offices holding guns to heads forcing others to copy what he did. All Miller did was do something original, and others followed, Miller isn't to blame for those who copied him. The copy cats are to blame. Blaming Miller is only shifting the blame. You can't blame the original influence, for unoriginality.

This is true to an extent. Miller was one of the originators of the "dark and gritty" movement, which he has been reported as saying it's a label he has grown sick of. And yes, you are also right in that because Miller, and also Alan Moore, took original approaches in terms of creating a darker, more adult tone in comics that every comic book writer started imitating them and usually came up with shallow and empty results, which is what usually happens with copycats. Everyone cited The Dark Knight Returns as THE seminal portrayl of Batman (and I happen to think it's one of the best graphic novels ever made) but it was Miller's Year:One that was supposed to portray the quintesential Batman. Problem is that DKR was so much more successful than Year One that instead of the Caped Crusader/Dark Knight Detective modeled after heroes like Robin Hood and Zorro that was prevalent in that story, everyone saw the embittered warrior who wanted to go out with the last harrah in DKR and assumed that was the real Batman, and thus for 20 years, we ended up with "Batdick." So yes, writers who came after Miller and attempted to copy his tone (which they still do to this day) do share most of the lion's share of the blame.

However, Miller WAS one of the guys that got the ball rolling, and I am sure one of the reasons why he's attempting to "rectify" this with parodies of the "dark and gritty" style is that, deep down, he probably realizes just how far things have gotten. Unfortunately, he's attempting to plug a leak in the dike with his finger even though it's already burst.

[the goddamn batman]

Uhm, he's addressing it to you because you're the one defending what Frank does.

I know that you and I have disagreed in the past ourselves, but I kinda think name calling is beneath you.
He's not slamming you, he's slamming the book.


I said whatever I said about the book and Miller, but don't address me like your individual purchase matters to me in any way. Thats all

and yeah the name calling is/was beneath me. even if I'm The Goddamn Batman!

p.s. sabrina ( and that is your name:) )your hack def. wasn't wrong, I was wrong. I was thinking of it in terms of musicians and music not writers. I want you to know I got nothing against you, hope we got no beef.

[IamtheRock3]

well I like miller

But the man is Crazy

How can you make fun of comics being Dark when MOST of his career (not Just Dark knight returns)

Is Pitch Black in tone

[the goddamn batman]

stillanerd,

first, I didn't mean you. No offence meant. other than that great post.

DC did market the book poorly. concidering they knew what they were going to be putting out.

Millers recent parodies, ASB&R, DKSA are in responce to the darker tone he helped bring about. regardless of who started it, I just don't see it as Millers fault. It all goes back to do you jump off the building because your friends did?

I would because who wants to live without friends :D

You kinda said all I could say, and you said it better, without being a jerk like I would have. :rolleyes:

[the goddamn batman]

How can you make fun of comics being Dark when MOST of his career (not Just Dark knight returns)

Is Pitch Black in tone

Man read "The Big Fat Kill" that book is hilarious. Knee slapping good times. at least it was to me.

[stillanerd]

stillanerd,

first, I didn't mean you. No offence meant. other than that great post.

DC did market the book poorly. concidering they knew what they were going to be putting out.

Millers recent parodies, ASB&R, DKSA are in responce to the darker tone he helped bring about. regardless of who started it, I just don't see it as Millers fault. It all goes back to do you jump off the building because your friends did?

I would because who wants to live without friends :D

You kinda said all I could say, and you said it better, without being a jerk like I would have. :rolleyes:

No offense taken, and thanks.

[the goddamn batman]

No offense taken, and thanks.


No problem. :)

[IamtheRock3]

Man read "The Big Fat Kill" that book is hilarious. Knee slapping good times. at least it was to me.


Oh I know

Wasnt exactly what I call light in tone. Dont think Miller EVER did that. When he Humor it DAR..deep in the gallows Humor

When it Drama it DARK drama

When it Super heroics..it grim and gritty super heroics.

[Mister Intensity]

What he's parodying is us and the ways of the comic book subculture. After peeking at the first issue at the store I decided not to buy the book because I realized he was having fun at our expense. In other words, he's making fun of us.

Something that became clear over the past few years is that Frank Miller doesn't think much of us and the culture that made him what he is today. The same things he decries (remember the tearing up of Wizard) are the same things he's using to sell us his joke. We're just proving his point by buying ASBARTBW. He knows he's putting out junk because he knows we're buying, thus he's laughing all the way to the bank, literally.

I know this is not going to help things but the best thing we can do is to stop buying the book. Maybe then he will see that we are not a bunch of fools.

Mister Intensity

[The Foreigner]

"The Dark Knight Returns" is a satire, not a parody. They're different, in case you didn't know...

And in my opinion, I don't care what Miller calls "All Star Batman"-- I still think it sucks. A lot of people seem to be getting mad, and that it's OUR fault if we don't "get with it" or there's something wrong with us because we don't understand the humour.

Leslie Nielson's "2001: A Space Travesty" was also a parody, but that doesn't make it a good movie.

Naming it a parody doesn't excuse bad writing.

[Dustin Griffin]

Leslie Nielson's "2001: A Space Travesty" was also a parody, but that doesn't make it a good movie.

Agreed. A lot of people are going way out of their way to defend ASBAR here and It seems more like theyre just defending Frank Miller. I agree with what someone said earlier about it not being marketed as a parody. Nothing can ruin a movie more than when the commercials portray it as a comedy and it turns out to be something else (a la Ice Harvest).

If FM wants to do parodies that is just fine with me, but what exactly about the Black Canary issue was parody? that was one of the single most go-nowhere issues of a comic I've ever read. The only attempt at attempt at humor in that issue was the "gay" joke, and by this time you think writers would have stopped using the word gay as a derogarory term. Unless that was just a parody of Robin being an American in which case Frank is being more heavy-handed than Hostel.

This may sound harsh but, if this is the case then I'm sorry that Jim Lee's talents are being wasted on a parody.

BTW I can't wait for that four page "parody" of the bat-cave.

[Corrina]

I thought it was possible this was a parody from the moment Vicki Vale flounced around in her lingerie. Then Bruce said of young Grayson "I've had my eye on him for a while" and, again, I thought this is Miller having some sick fun.

The goddam Batman bit sealed it for me. I actually do find it funny but then, I'm really tired of Batdick and seeing it go over the top amuses me.

[Jack Roberts]

And in my opinion, I don't care what Miller calls "All Star Batman"-- I still think it sucks. A lot of people seem to be getting mad, and that it's OUR fault if we don't "get with it" or there's something wrong with us because we don't understand the humour.

I would actually like to read were Miller said this and from perusing this topic I did not see where anyone provided a link.

Leslie Nielson's "2001: A Space Travesty" was also a parody, but that doesn't make it a good movie.

Naming it a parody doesn't excuse bad writing.

Very good point, fortunately bad movies are over and done with in about two hours. Bad late comics seem to go on forever.

[SamuelCollins]

Is anyone else sick of Miller's entire Bat stint? Oh sure, I understand the depth of DKR, but frankly speaking, Miller's latest bat projects, including the rumored Batman v. Al Qaeda, are riding the coat tails of his past efforts.

Defending against charges of bad, overbloated writing, Miller says his new work is a parody. In other words, we the readers, the poor dunderheaded oafs of America, are simply too stupid to grasp his deeper and obviously more complicated meaning. He is in fact, critiquing the modern industry(which he helped engender).

Someone needs to tell him that this isn't depth--its sarcasm . And I for one am bored to tears with it.

[King Krypton]

First, if you don't get Millers humor, that does not mean HE needs to get with it, it means you need to get with it.

I get Miller's "humor" just fine. It's just not funny, or intelligent, or entertaining. And he's never understood what makes Batman a good character. He blames the '60s TV show for things that were done during the Golden Age in the comics, for God's sake (and did so on the Batman special edition DVD)! To me, that shows a massive ignorance of the character and the material. His Batman work has always struck me as being about self-promotion above all else. Even his so-called "spoofing" of what he started doesn't do anything to deflate what he did, it only augments it.

I don't care of Miller thinks pointless T&A and a Batman who acts worse than the Joker is high comedy. I don't care if he thinks running over cops and smacking grieving kids around is funny. All I know is that it's not funny, it's offensive, and it does nothing but degrade the characters even further. What Miller considers humor, I see as self-indulgence and "hey, look at me" attention-grabbing. Maybe he needs to reconsider his idea of humor.

[Panman]

I think Miller's doing a parody of himself. I can't wait to see what the Batvillians are like in ASB.

[Hellcow]

I think the upcoming batcave thing is just to give more of the work to JL and act as a distraction from the lack of substance.

I would love to see a completely different take on the batcave, without the stupid giant coins, dinosaurs and other large scale crap. Show me something NEW guys. Not some slight twist on the same old shit. The lack of imagination is truely amazing.

[IamtheRock3]

I always saw the tounge and cheek Humor

1 and 2 was pretty good and funny

3 SUCKED..that was a Pardody of TO MUCH FLASH pages..and a waste of money

if it was..then he a GENIUS..because he got it down perfectly.

[Sharcque]

I think Miller's doing a parody of himself. I can't wait to see what the Batvillians are like in ASB.
If we ever see any....

[BeastieRunner]

I can't wait to see what the Batvillians are like in ASB.

The Goddamn Batman has to get out of the Goddamn Batmobile before we can get any Goddamn Bat villains.

[mohammedali]

Don't worry, I heard they'll be out of the batmobile by the end of issue #14, tops :D

Mohammed Ali

[Roads]

When I first heard of ALL STAR BM OR SM I was told it was DC's Ultimates.

I didn't get them because the regular Batman's booksis hard enough to follow.


But are you all saying that BOTH ALL STARS are not like the Ultimates but more like SATURDAY NITE LIVE????

Is this true?

[Guts/Batman]

the problem with all star is that its not fun to read so much. I think everyone realized it wasn't a real story around the time of ". . . I'm the goddamn batman."

AS Batman is like reading Spawn/Batman II. It's so over the top that it is entertaining.

Spawn/Batman II is one of the worst comics I have ever read but it is so freakin stupid that it is just so entertaining. We all have our exceptions. And as much as I hate stupid fiction, AS Batman and Robin and Spawn/Batman II are my exceptions.

I mean to say, how many times can you say "punk" in a comic and get away with it? Find out in Batman/Spawn II. And he said "twit" in that book. And verbally pwned Superman in that book. It doesn't get much better. Spawn/Batman II is worth it's weight in gold if you like stupid fiction like AS Batman and Robin.

I want to hate this book because of its crappy writing but Miller makes it so I can't...and won't. Miller is magic.

[the goddamn batman]

So here we go again, everyone gets all mad, because this being a "parody" or "satire" must mean we are all stupid, and Franks making fun of us.

"Oh no, Franks being mean to me, I'm telling my mommy" :(

Then we all prove how stupid we really are, by taking personal offence, when none was intended.

Frank is making fun of INDUSTRY TRENDS, current comic content, the 20 plus years of DKR copy cats, and his own over-the-top "dark" work. Thats what Frank is poking fun at, NOT you.

It's not about how stupid comic fans are, it's not about laughing all the way to the bank, or how we'll buy anything he poops out. It's about how the industry in general has slipped down hill into mostly crap. Hence the big DC crisis "quick lets fix all of these a-hole characters, and F'd up continuity". Or how DC had to make a new title to tell "iconic" stories, because they are not being told in the main titles where they should be told every month. Franks making fun of what he helped turn comics into, he's trying to show how ridiculous things have gotten, by doing an even more over-the-top exageration of what he sees in main stream comics.


I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, this is just how I see it.

[Paul Kersey]

Franks making fun of what he helped turn comics into, he's trying to show how ridiculous things have gotten, by doing an even more over-the-top exageration of what he sees in main stream comics.


I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, this is just how I see it.

Well insted of that, he should just make good comics and SHOW everybody how it's done, instead of just making exaggerations of whats already wrong with comics, because in the end, a great selling title with big names, great art, and crappy story is just going to make DC do the same again.

[Hellcow]

because in the end, a great selling title with big names, great art, and crappy story is just going to make DC do the same again.

Too true.

It's happening everywhere. So much low quality crappy food, products, TV, movies, etc. But it's still selling, so its produced again and again and again until there is no choice anymore for a quality product.

There have been more than a few items I've wanted to buy recently, I've looked around and found at least 10 different choices. But each choice is a crappy, low quality product, with no quality options available. But often when there is nothing to compare it to, people don't remember what quality is. They start to think that's as good as it gets, because that's all that is on the shelf.

I hope comics don't go this way....

[the goddamn batman]

Well insted of that, he should just make good comics and SHOW everybody how it's done, instead of just making exaggerations of whats already wrong with comics, because in the end, a great selling title with big names, great art, and crappy story is just going to make DC do the same again.

Don't get me wrong, that was not an endorsement, just my attempt at an explanation. I think it's a good idea in theory, but it doesn't apply well to comics. Making a crappy comic to comment on crappy comics, isn't really helping, again I never said it was actually awesome. :)

[dancj]

AS Batman is like reading Spawn/Batman II. It's so over the top that it is entertaining.


Is it called Spawn/Batman II? I thought there was just the DC abomination, Batman/Spawn: War Devil and the Image one, Spawn/Batman with no numbering on either of them.

Personally I'm waiting for the trade, but if ASB+R is as much fun as Spawn/Batman then I'll be happy

[Guts/Batman]

Is it called Spawn/Batman II? I thought there was just the DC abomination, Batman/Spawn: War Devil and the Image one, Spawn/Batman with no numbering on either of them.

Personally I'm waiting for the trade, but if ASB+R is as much fun as Spawn/Batman then I'll be happy

I refer to it as Miller/MacFarlane Batman/Spawn, I can't remember if War Devil was before or after it or not.

[ducklord]

I tend to agree with those who've labeled ASBARTBW a Miller self-parody.

Of course, the court's still out on whether it's a knowing self-parody.

Mike.

[Max_Dillon]

This piece of s*** book was never advertised as a damn parody so DC and Frank Miller can still kiss my ass for the money I wasted on that trash.

[Jaye]

This piece of s*** book was never advertised as a damn parody so DC and Frank Miller can still kiss my ass for the money I wasted on that trash.
Wow, is it really all that bad?

Relax, write a letter to DC letting them know how you feel about the misrepresetation of the all star line, and stop buying it.

Most of all, relax.

[raoulduke]

This piece of s*** book was never advertised as a damn parody so DC and Frank Miller can still kiss my ass for the money I wasted on that trash.

Now how can you not love a book that makes comic fans say stuff like this.

Buyer beware, read a preview, thumb through the issue in the store, take some responsibility.

Also, who the hell knows what Frank Miller is thinking? Is he making fun of us? Or the industry? Both?

Just buy the book if you like it and don't if you don't. This is sort of a new concept I came up with.

[mattx110]

so umm... max dillon is pissed about messing around with the characterization of some superheroes? isn't that the guy that tried to nuke new york by blowing up an underground powerstation? i mean, jeeze, you explode half of NY and you're pissed about a couple comic books... yer just jealous miller made bullseye more of a threat and didn't even write a book with you in it!




ps, i'm joking, sorry if it ain't funny, it's just, cause his name is... yknow the guy with the yellow fins on his head and green jumpsuit... i'm gonna stop talking now

and just to add some real worth to this post, wait for batman vs. osama, because even if the writing is as terrible as you feel this book is, any frank miller book with decent art can only go up in value after DK2.

maybe jim lee will read the scripts and call up frank and say "umm, for the last two scripts, every single character just repeats the words "hell of a day." and "damn." including like, 3 nuns, for 22 pages, i mean wtf, are you writing this in 20 minutes so you can order and catalog your cd collection? yeesh"

[Guts/Batman]

ps, i'm joking, sorry if it ain't funny, it's just, cause his name is... yknow the guy with the yellow fins on his head and green jumpsuit... i'm gonna stop talking now

It would be even more obvious if you used a smiley to communicate you were joking, you know.

[the goddamn batman]

This piece of s*** book was never advertised as a damn parody so DC and Frank Miller can still kiss my ass for the money I wasted on that trash.


Great, just wanted to let you know, when Frank was asked about any rules or restricions placed on the him and the All-Star line, Frank said: " if there are, nobody told me."

I'm glad you at least have the sence to hold DC partly accountable, but how is it Franks fault? Well written or not, DC told you something and neglected to inform their writers. Not to mention the "event" based on fixing 20 years of ass writing, because DC can't keep their $h!t straight. What has Frank got to do with that?

[Hellcow]

I was sooo hoping that Dark Knight Strikes Again would have the same feeling as Dark Knight Returns, but reading it, you start to feel that there is something very different in Franks life. 300 has that Frank Miller feeling that I enjoy, but All Star Batman and Robin does not. Jim Lee is not helping either.

[Jaye]

It would be even more obvious if you used a smiley to communicate you were joking, you know.


No it wouldn't. Words work fine thanks.

[Max_Dillon]

Great, just wanted to let you know, when Frank was asked about any rules or restricions placed on the him and the All-Star line, Frank said: " if there are, nobody told me."

I'm glad you at least have the sence to hold DC partly accountable, but how is it Franks fault? Well written or not, DC told you something and neglected to inform their writers. Not to mention the "event" based on fixing 20 years of ass writing, because DC can't keep their $h!t straight. What has Frank got to do with that?


I'm pissed at DC because I feel that they totally misrepresented what the title was supposed to be, if it was going to be a parody or spoof written by Frank Miller advertise it as such. Don't try and pass off ASB&R as the answer to Marvel's Ultimate Line and then have it as a complete joke. I'm pissed at Miller because he was always a favorite of mine for his Daredevil and Batman: Year One work, so when I read three issues worth of crap from a man I hold in high regard when it comes to this comics stuff I have no problem bashing him for it because that book should kick 100000000x more ass than what we've seen so far and everyone knows this, even if its meant to be a parody its not very good, the story is three issues in and has gone nowhere. I know Miller is treated as a god amongst some people but that doesn't mean I'm just supposed to shut up and not criticize his crap. As for DC having to do company wide crossover events to retcon bad writing every 20 years, why would I blame Miller for that? Besides, now that we have a character that can retcon a decade's worth of sloppy writing with a single punch, Crisis/Zero Hour events will become obsolete.

I'm just very dissapointed, thats all. I was hoping to get Miller's Year 1 style interpretation of Batman and Robin's early adventures, not a waste of money. And believe me, if I knew the book was going to be a joke i wouldn't have wasted my time with it. I even gave the book a chance past issue 2 just because of Lee and Miller, but after that Black Canary crap I dropped it.

[Ryan Day]

I'm just very dissapointed, thats all. I was hoping to get Miller's Year 1 style interpretation of Batman and Robin's early adventures

But Miller wrote Year One 20 years ago. For good or bad, he's an incredibly different writer now. I'm not sure how anyone could expect a straight Year One-style tale after reading his work from the last decade.

[mattx110]

btw, im' also not pleased that this was represented as being more... friendly than it is. but with the way AS Superman is going, this isn't really as bad as it could be. plus the ultimates is all cool and violent with leather and cursing and stuff (assuming All star for dc=ultimate for marvel). and given frank's fascination with the catholic church, robin's origin could have been a loooooooooooooot worse.

it woulda been cool if it were more year oneish and jim lee did a more toned down inkwash kinda thing, but things don't always work out how they could have (wizard magazine would go nuts with "miller returns to his roots" articles and other stuff that would piss frank miller off again), and at least FM didn't offer to do the whole thing with a sharpie in one afternoon to save time. :)

ps gracias 13th :D

[tomasej]

Do you have any idea how many High School and college students actually think Swift was advocating that the Irish eat their children? People don't get satire or irony.


So here we go again, everyone gets all mad, because this being a "parody" or "satire" must mean we are all stupid, and Franks making fun of us.

"Oh no, Franks being mean to me, I'm telling my mommy" :(

Then we all prove how stupid we really are, by taking personal offence, when none was intended.

Frank is making fun of INDUSTRY TRENDS, current comic content, the 20 plus years of DKR copy cats, and his own over-the-top "dark" work. Thats what Frank is poking fun at, NOT you.

It's not about how stupid comic fans are, it's not about laughing all the way to the bank, or how we'll buy anything he poops out. It's about how the industry in general has slipped down hill into mostly crap. Hence the big DC crisis "quick lets fix all of these a-hole characters, and F'd up continuity". Or how DC had to make a new title to tell "iconic" stories, because they are not being told in the main titles where they should be told every month. Franks making fun of what he helped turn comics into, he's trying to show how ridiculous things have gotten, by doing an even more over-the-top exageration of what he sees in main stream comics.


I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, this is just how I see it.

[Guts/Batman]

No it wouldn't. Words work fine thanks.

I guess I do see your point.

Maybe I used them too much as is... :D

[Saracen Pig! Spartan Dog!]

Or, at least that part of his intention with the comic was to commentate on what he percieves as excessive darkness in the industry, including through parody. This was at NYC Con last week.


What a fucking hypocrite.

Miller himself is to blame for the darkness in the tone of comics and especially the dark tone in the various Batman titles, as he was the one who started the whole thing off with Dark Knight Returns and Year One.

[literally exaggerated]

Miller is NOT to blame. He wrote a dark, but by no means manic or insane Batman for Year One, the story which was intended to be in continuity. The Batman of Year One is a FAR cry from the so-called "Batdick".

He saved his crazy Batman for his out of contuity tale, and even then he still wrote a hero, even if he was dark. He was close to Robin, obviously cared about her and was still kind to Alfred and on fairly good terms with Jim Gordon. Hell, though he eventually came to blows with Superman (who as written in that story was a total douche, so its hard to blame him), at first he talked reasonably and cordially with him. He teamed up with Ollie Queen at the end too. Sure, he was a little nuts, very brutal and proud and obsessive, but he was out of contuity and he was human enough to care about.

If Miller is guilty of anything, its being too damn good, and accidentally timing his story to come out around the same time as Alan Moore's classic Watchmen. Obviously, it started something of a comic revolution, but you can't blame Moore or Miller for that. Its not like they tried to start a revolution, they just wrote some out of continuity stories that happened to be too damn good.

Moreover, Miller (and Moore, for that matter) has always decried darkness in comics when it was done for shock value or not written well. I remember reading an interview with him soon after A Death in the Family. He said the fact that DC actually held a vote on whether or not to kill Robin, a young boy who was also a classic character, was downright sickening.

Had people (including Miller, in my mind) copied the quality in DKR rather than the grim and gritty, we wouldn't be where we are today.

[The Foreigner]

Well insted of that, he should just make good comics and SHOW everybody how it's done, instead of just making exaggerations of whats already wrong with comics, because in the end, a great selling title with big names, great art, and crappy story is just going to make DC do the same again.

Exactly. By writing this so-called "parody" of all of the crappy aspects of the comic industry, he's just given us another example of... well; the crappy aspects of the comic industry...

[Guts/Batman]

Had people (including Miller, in my mind) copied the quality in DKR rather than the grim and gritty, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Damn straight.

Miller's work on Batman in the eighties has been constantly and consistently misinterpreted over the years by writers making his world darker and darker so that the only way Batman can believably act is like a total asshole.

Also, we need to keep in mind that Miller was not the only dark Batman writer in the 80s...

[Saracen Pig! Spartan Dog!]

Also, we need to keep in mind that Miller was not the only dark Batman writer in the 80s...


Miller was the one who started the entire dark Batman thing off. He and he alone is singularly responsible for it, and for him to turn around and castigate the comics scene as being too dark is the height of hypocrisy.

[Guts/Batman]

Miller was the one who started the entire dark Batman thing off. He and he alone is singularly responsible for it, and for him to turn around and castigate the comics scene as being too dark is the height of hypocrisy.

No it is funny. How is it hypocrisy when he sees what the 90's authors did to his work on Batman and decides to comment on it by making an over the top comic? By that I mean, misinterpreting what DKR and Year One stand for.

Also, why don't the writers after him take any responsibility for their own stuff? Why exactly is Miller singularly to blame for it?

Your argument is fundamentally flawed. You should not be making your statements in absolutes.

[Maleficentogre]

ASBAR still sucks, but you can't blame the bad writing of batman the past few years on miller. You can only blame the editors and the person writing it.

[literally exaggerated]

He and he alone is singularly responsible for it, and for him to turn around and castigate the comics scene as being too dark is the height of hypocrisy.

Is Kurt Cobain responsible for Staind? I mean, were it not he and the rest of Nirvana, alternative/grunge would probably never have become the dominant genre, which means no shitty, imitative, talentless nu-metal bands 10 years later, including atrocities like Staind.

Are the Sex Pistols to blame for Simple Plan? After all, if the Sex Pistols hadn't taken England by storm as they did, punk rock probably never would have reached the hights it did, meaning no pop-punk or emo (both of which are derived from punk), meaning no pop-emo, meaning no Simple Plan.


I don't think so. In my opinion, you cannot blame an artist for being copied by others, unless if he actively encouraged it. Miller wrote a damn good short story. Thats it. He never asked anyone to do what he did, he never said "all you other guys should stop writing the batman you have been and write him really crazy." In fact, he actively tried not do this, he argued against the darkness of the DCU from the very beginning in interviews, and when asked to write an in-continuity Batman, one who actually should have an influence on how Batman is portrayed, he wrote a dark Gotham, but Batman himself was noble, self sacrificing, friendly with Alfred and Jim Gordon, and apart from being slightly obsessive, was in all other ways a great hero.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the imitators. Miller didn't make them write what they did, in fact he argued for them not too. They were responsible adults, nobody held a gun to them and said "make Batman a dick". How is Miller in any way responsible for what they chose to write?

[Santanico]

To be totally honest, I don't buy that ASB&R was intended to be a parody right from the start; this really and truly smacks of ass-covering to me. More and more often these days, people who put out a shoddy creative product are using the irony defense as a way of deflecting criticism: yeah, it's crappy, but that's the point! It's ironically bad! Geddit? Huh? Huh?

Never mind that this approach isn't actually funny, or that it actually smacks of arrogance and superiority rather than the goodwill that genuine humor demands (that is, the notion of actually letting your audience in on the joke); you can still rest assured that a contingent of critics and readers will defend your work on the grounds that everybody else Just Doesn't Get It.

Really, I think Miller's just lost it. Yeah, sure, I liked Sin City and all, but it's probably worth remembering that those stories were written years ago (and that his most recent entry in that series, Hell and Back, displayed early symptoms of the creative rot that now seems to have set in for good). Now, between this and the upcoming Holy Terror trainwreck, I'm forced to conclude that Miller just doesn't have it in him to tell a good story any more - one that stars actual humans you can care about, rather than lockjawed macho ubermenschen or pneumatic prostitutes.

[Max_Dillon]

Its hilarious to me that people are still in this thread trying to defend shitty writing just because it comes from Frank Miller. Fall back citizens, even a man's scrotum needs room to breathe