CBR's NYCC Photo Parade. [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Kid Omega

03-03-2006, 06:24 AM

You know, maybe it's me, but is every mention of women on this one of a sexual nature? (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6812)

Isn't that immature?

It's like that after every con. I'm always disappointed with the wizard-esque captions under eevry photo. But whatcha gonna do?

More disturbing to me was the unsolicited pimping of Midtown Comics.

"Check out these con photos! And also, take a look at these convenient advert-style photos of a comic shop!"

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 06:25 AM

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 06:25 AM

You know, maybe it's me, but is every mention of women on this one of a sexual nature? (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6812)

Isn't that immature?

Not everyone, but a few--four out of twelve in the costumed peoples category (the percentage lessens if you take the female comics professionals into account).

So it's not entirely pervasive, but it's still enough to give me pause.

Rae Rodriguez

03-03-2006, 06:27 AM

You know, maybe it's me, but is every mention of women on this one of a sexual nature? (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6812)

Isn't that immature?No no no, only the ones that were pretty and had huge knockers had that sort of mention.

That's pretty typical. :(

west3man

03-03-2006, 06:27 AM

Let's go from ugly to damned hot:

http://images.comicbookresources.com/cons/nycc2006/photos/IMG_6448.jpg

Jesus God! Pope and Cassaday that close to each other? It's painful! And signing for such a shit-astic store, too.
I can't get that pic to load for shit.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 06:29 AM

Not everyone, but a few--four out of twelve in the costumed peoples category (the percentage lessens if you take the female comics professionals into account).

So it's not entirely pervasive, but it's still enough to give me pause.

You know what's sad?

I saw this one as an improvement. I lowered my expectations.

I hate doing that.

cactusmaac

03-03-2006, 06:29 AM

Is . . .uh, that a guy?

Yeah, looks like one of Alex Ross's models.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 06:30 AM

You know what's sad?

I saw this one as an improvement. I lowered my expectations.

I hate doing that.

If you didn't lower your expecations, though, we'd have never become friends.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 06:31 AM

If you didn't lower your expecations, though, we'd have never become friends.

See? See what lowered expectations gets me?

Mac Danny

03-03-2006, 06:32 AM

Doubt it.

If WEIRD SCIENCE taught us anything, it's that if a guy's gonna make breasts from scratch, he's not gonna undercook'em.

That is Funny...

Funny funny funny and TRUE!

Boobies!

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 06:34 AM

It has to be a guy.

west3man

03-03-2006, 06:35 AM

It has to be a guy.
That almost convinced me, but you didn't put "has" in bold type.

But yeah, those arms ain't helpin'.

Winslow

03-03-2006, 06:36 AM

That almost convinced me, but you didn't put "has" in bold type.

But yeah, those arms ain't helpin'.

Facial features and chest cavity are pretty masculine too.

Still - cool costumes.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 06:37 AM

Lone Ranger

03-03-2006, 06:41 AM

I honestly believe that, more than anything else, this kind of frat boy attitude keeps many women away from the funnybook world.

It's a fucking embarrassment.

If I was omnipotent, one of the first things I'd do is strike all Power Girl references from the record.

west3man

03-03-2006, 06:45 AM

Facial featuresno doubt.

and chest cavity are pretty masculine too.

Still - cool costumes.no doubt.

Anyway, Mark Marvel isn't the point here. The point is the juvenile woman-degrading humor.I didn't think it was all that bad. I'll have another look.

Now, sure, this is the sort of attention most of those girls were aiming for. That doesn't mean you have to give it to them.I'd think that'd move it an increment or two further from "degrading," though.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 06:47 AM

It's degrading to women in general. Just because some girls want to play the game doesn't mean men should join in.

Lone Ranger

03-03-2006, 06:50 AM

I didn't think it was all that bad. I'll have another look.

I'd think that'd move it an increment or two further from "degrading," though.

How about the joke about the size (or lack thereof) of the woman dressed as Power Girl's breasts?

If that's not bottom of the barrel humor, I don't know what is.

west3man

03-03-2006, 06:50 AM

I took another look.
It seems to go there now and again, but I didn't feel it dominated the column or was terribly inappropriate.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 06:50 AM

I took another look.
It seems to go there now and again, but I didn't feel it dominated the column or was terribly inappropriate.

You've got a higher tolerance for "huh huh her boobies" jokes than I, then.

Winslow

03-03-2006, 06:51 AM

Anyway, Mark Marvel isn't the point here. The point is the juvenile woman-degrading humor. Now, sure, this is the sort of attention most of those girls were aiming for. That doesn't mean you have to give it to them.

The mainstream superhero market displays women in similar ways on the panels of the product (body type and sexual posing)

Is it really all the surprising the the purveyors of such product have a "frat-boy" attitude?

Not defending it - just sayin' . . . .

west3man

03-03-2006, 06:53 AM

How about the joke about the size (or lack thereof) of the woman dressed as Power Girl's breasts?

If that's not bottom of the barrel humor, I don't know what is.
Power Girl is the Dolly Parton of comic-dom.
In both cases, the breast-focus is intentional.

I had a similar complaint a couple of months, ago, but an older fan kinda schooled me on the character.

Lone Ranger

03-03-2006, 06:54 AM

I took another look.
It seems to go there now and again, but I didn't feel it dominated the column or was terribly inappropriate.

The point is, we should be encouraging women to show an interest in comic books.

I know for a fact that many women dont' stay away from comics because of DC's post-Crisis continuity, it's this kind of shit that intimidates them.

Sure, some of these women dressed like this for some attention, but it's all in good fun. There are making fun of themselves too - there is no need for amateur comedy writers to get involved.

As a point of comparison - how many photos of males talk about the size of the guy's package?

Lone Ranger

03-03-2006, 06:55 AM

Power Girl is the Dolly Parton of comic-dom.
In both cases, the breast-focus is intentional.

I had a similar complaint a couple of months, ago, but an older fan kinda schooled me on the character.

I have no idea what you mean by this post.

What does 'breast-focus' mean?

Do you think that woman wanted some mouth breather to comment on the size of here breasts on a website? I doubt it.

thomas_catbiscuit

03-03-2006, 06:56 AM

do you not think y'all are over reacting a tad here ( ala jackson flash superbowl). i thought it was funny and not degrading to women. As my g/f says '' if you've got big boobs use em''......

personally i dont see this as a problem in fact i'd say it added humor to the article.

Tom

03-03-2006, 06:56 AM

Let's go from ugly to damned hot:

http://images.comicbookresources.com/cons/nycc2006/photos/IMG_6388.jpg

Jesus God! Pope and Cassaday that close to each other? It's painful! And signing for such a shit-astic store, too.In my perfect world, after the signing, they would invite a select few to go behind the screen and watch them make out.

Did I just say that out loud?

west3man

03-03-2006, 06:58 AM

The point is, we should be encouraging women to show an interest in comic books.

I know for a fact that many women dont' stay away from comics because of DC's post-Crisis continuity, it's this kind of shit that intimidates them.

Sure, some of these women dressed like this for some attention, but it's all in good fun. There are making fun of themselves too - there is no need for amateur comedy writers to get involved.

As a point of comparison - how many photos of males talk about the size of the guy's package?
I'm not sure a tit-to-tackle comparison's the best way to go, but I recognize there's no drooling over the males... in the article, anyway.

That doesn't bug me, though. If a gay male wrote an article and made a comment or three similar to Joe Rice's earlier statements, it wouldn't bug me, either... especially if those males were in skin-tight outfits.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 07:01 AM

In my perfect world, after the signing, they would invite a select few to go behind the screen and watch them make out.

Did I just say that out loud?

I don't know. Philadelphia is out of my range of hearing.

Just to balance the whole objectification thing a bit, I hear drawing isn't Cassady's only god-given talent.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 07:02 AM

As a point of comparison - how many photos of males talk about the size of the guy's package?

To be fair, I'm noticing a lot more artists detailing a bit more down there. Quitley's euperman opbviously likes Lois quite a bit.

Then there's this guy:

http://www.luchins.com/dickery/MTUV2015-bulge.jpg

Someone has a happy boner!

west3man

03-03-2006, 07:02 AM

I have no idea what you mean by this post.

What does 'breast-focus' mean?"Breast focus" means "focus on the breasts."

In other words, in both cases, the person or designer intends for the viewer to make note of the exaggerated bosom.

*No* idea? Really?

Do you think that woman wanted some mouth breather to comment on the size of here breasts on a website? I doubt it.I think a woman who shows cleavage means for people to notice it.
I think a woman who does this in a comic book costume at a comic book convention, allowing a comic book website photographer to take photos isn't likely to be too shook-up over it.

Lone Ranger

03-03-2006, 07:02 AM

I'm not sure a tit-to-tackle comparison's the best way to go, but I recognize there's no drooling over the males... in the article, anyway.

That doesn't bug me, though. If a gay male wrote an article and made a comment or three similar to Joe Rice's earlier statements, it wouldn't bug me, either... especially if those males were in skin-tight outfits.

That's just my point.

Those comments are never there.

Comic book and comic book fandom has a very male-dominated worldview.

Whenever I've try to justify the Triple D bust size on most heroines, by pointing out that the male heroes have unrealistic bodies too, most women I know counter with 'but they don't give them two-foot dicks!.

This is just male dominated infantile humour. I think it's stupid. Some people may like it and those people are known as Wizard subscribers.

I've got a meeting now - back later.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 07:02 AM

Lone Ranger

03-03-2006, 07:03 AM

"Breast focus" means "focus on the breasts."

In other words, in both cases, the person or designer intends for the viewer to make note of the exaggerated bosom.

*No* idea? Really?

I think a woman who shows cleavage means for people to notice it.
I think a woman who does this in a comic book costume at a comic book convention, allowing a comic book photographer to take photos isn't likely to be too shook-up over it.

It's not the photo west, it's the caption.

Sure - she wants the attention, but she probably doesn't want a joke to be made at her expense.

Do you think that it will encourage her to attend more cons?

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 07:04 AM

Just because most of your audience is white doesn't mean telling Mexican jokes is a great, nice thing to do.

What?

Tears paper.

Great. Now I need to write a whole new act for open mike nite at "Stand-Up Hartford".

Seriously though, did these girls know this was going on a web site?

west3man

03-03-2006, 07:06 AM

Just because most of your audience is white doesn't mean telling Mexican jokes is a great, nice thing to do.
I agree.
But I've not supported my position by saying that straight fanboys dig it, so it must be okay.

I've not said that and I don't feel that way.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 07:08 AM

What?

Tears paper.

Great. Now I need to write a whole new act for open mike nite at "Stand-Up Hartford".

Seriously though, did these girls know this was going on a web site?

I'm not just concerned about these specific girls. It's the general atmosphere of "locker room talk." We can do better.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 07:09 AM

I agree.
But I've not supported my position by saying that straight fanboys dig it, so it must be okay.

I've not said that and I don't feel that way.

Then why is it OK to make sexist jokes here?

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 07:11 AM

It's not the photo west, it's the caption.

Sure - she wants the attention, but she probably doesn't want a joke to be made at her expense.

Do you think that it will encourage her to attend more cons?

Damn good point.

I bet she felt really good that someone was taking her phot... then she logs in and sees that they're mocking her chestage.

west3man

03-03-2006, 07:16 AM

It's not the photo west, it's the caption.

Sure - she wants the attention, but she probably doesn't want a joke to be made at her expense.My point was that I'm sure she expects attention and comments about what she's highlighting.

But anyway, I thought it was the very mentioning of these assets, not the fact that in one case the caption mentioned the fact that they were smaller.

With that in-mind, I'll take another look at what was said in that specific case.

She's grinning so damned hard, it's hard NOT to feel for her, noting the great difference between the vibe of the photo and the vibe from the caption. I agree that this comment was best left off the "official" page, but I also think it'd have easily been made in a thread and that little would've been thought of it.

Do you think that it will encourage her to attend more cons?Dressed as Power Girl? Hell, no.

I hear you. Trust. But I still think it's like coming to a costume party dressed as Dolly Parton with "Willow's" bustline. If you don't want people to note how off it seems, you oughta pick a different costume.

To be clear, I think the comments were best left unsaid... but mostly because of how sweet she looks and the fact that it's on the main page of the website (though it seems to be an artificial distinction between the main page and a thread, somewhere).

Jaye

03-03-2006, 07:18 AM

You know, maybe it's me, but is every mention of women on this one of a sexual nature? (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6812)

Isn't that immature?

Hm. I only thought a couple were of a sexual nature.
The stuff in Wizard is way stupider and far more degrading.

west3man

03-03-2006, 07:19 AM

Seriously though, did these girls know this was going on a web site?
Fair question. I'd have thought this'd be a slam-dunk "Yes," but after telling a somewhat popular Batgirl, last weekend, that she was pretty familiar because she'd been online quite a bit... she seemed surprised.

But this being a photo from a CBR representative, I'd be inclined to think the photog's intentions were disclosed from the start. Maybe that's an incorrect assumption.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 07:19 AM

She's grinning so damned hard, it's hard NOT to feel for her, noting the great difference between the vibe of the photo and the vibe from the caption. I agree that this comment was best left off the "official" page, but I also think it'd have easily been made in a thread and that little would've been thought of it.

...

To be clear, I think the comments were best left unsaid... but mostly because of how sweet she looks and the fact that it's on the main page of the website (though it seems to be an artificial distinction between the main page and a thread, somewhere).

I agree, sort of--I don't think the distinction is artificial, though. There's definitely a difference in venue there, much as there's "workplace appropriate" and "pub appropriate" conversations and whatnot.

west3man

03-03-2006, 07:20 AM

I agree, sort of--I don't think the distinction is artificial, though. There's definitely a difference in venue there, much as there's "workplace appropriate" and "pub appropriate" conversations and whatnot.
I sort of agree, too. I feel the way I described, but have a bit of a time articulating (internally or externally) the reason for the distinction.

Dreadstar

03-03-2006, 07:21 AM

Has anyone seen the fan fic movie about Power Girl looking for a job? That gal, now SHE'S Power Girl. Not just looks but attitude.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 07:23 AM

I sort of agree, too. I feel the way I described, but have a bit of a time articulating (internally or externally) the reason for the distinction.

Different things for different sites, too. This site sets itself off as an actual internet publication, rather than a "by fans for fans" site. To be honest, the actual content doesn't bother me as content; while I'm not offended by the material, I don't think having that kind of thing is a "best foot forward" situation.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 07:23 AM

My point was that I'm sure she expects attention and comments about what she's highlighting.

She was askin' for it!

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 07:24 AM

Slam_Bradley

03-03-2006, 07:26 AM

Different things for different sites, too. This site sets itself off as an actual internet publication, rather than a "by fans for fans" site. To be honest, the actual content doesn't bother me as content; while I'm not offended by the material, I don't think having that kind of thing is a "best foot forward" situation.

I think you just hit my point of view on this, Ed. Frankly, there is very little that offends me, at least when it comes to this sort of thing. But I think that the offending captions reflect badly on CBR as an entity.

Oh, and Morts, send me your Mexican joke list. There may be one or two on it that I haven't heard.

west3man

03-03-2006, 07:28 AM

Has anyone seen the fan fic movie about Power Girl looking for a job? That gal, now SHE'S Power Girl. Not just looks but attitude.
SOMEbody around here posted it, at some point. I kinda dug what I saw, but I never did turn up the audio enough to get a more accurate feel for the entire piece.

She looked great, though.

west3man

03-03-2006, 07:28 AM

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 07:28 AM

west, I never got a sufficient answer as to why it's OK to make sexist comments here.

west3man

03-03-2006, 07:30 AM

She was askin' for it!
Big difference between rape and a comment about a woman with her breasts popping out of the hole she cut in the middle of a skin-tight comic book character costume.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 07:30 AM

Agreed.
I'd add, though, that the "best foot forward" to-do list is loooooonger than a mugggg.

I don't know what that means (not the stretching out bit, but "mug." Mug?).

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 07:31 AM

Big difference between rape and a comment about a woman with her breasts popping out of the hole she cut in the middle of a skin-tight comic book character costume.

But "she was askin' for it" is equally appropriate as an excuse for both, disparate as the two offenses are.

Guapo Méndez

03-03-2006, 07:31 AM

But the majority of fans of superhero material already are male. So of course demeaning comments don't bother many of them. Just because most of your audience is white doesn't mean telling Mexican jokes is a great, nice thing to do.

Quick comment:
In Mexican jokes the mexican *always* wins.

west3man

03-03-2006, 07:39 AM

west, I never got a sufficient answer as to why it's OK to make sexist comments here.If some boney dude wore a Mr. T costume, I'm pretty sure there'd be comments about his body not matching that of the character.

Sexist would be ignoring the cases with one gender, but highlighting those of the other. Show me where they've done that and I'll address it as best I can.

west3man

03-03-2006, 07:40 AM

I don't know what that means (not the stretching out bit, but "mug." Mug?).
Ed, did you let your soul brutha pass expire, again?!

"mug" is used to substitute for "mother" - as in "mother fucker."

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 07:41 AM

If some boney dude wore a Mr. T costume, I'm pretty sure there'd be comments about his body not matching that of the character.

Sexist would be ignoring the cases with one gender, but highlighting those of the other. Show me where they've done that and I'll address it as best I can.

Show me one photo/caption in which a man's sexual attractiveness is discussed.

We've SEEN the inappropriate materal about women. I've proved my part. Where is this equal footing?

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 07:43 AM

Ed, did you let your soul brutha pass expire, again?!

You should have seen the lines at the DSB.

west3man

03-03-2006, 07:45 AM

But "she was askin' for it" is equally appropriate as an excuse for both, disparate as the two offenses are.
I disagree.
The difference between the propriety of the comments is about as great as the difference between the situations.

The results of comments about a skin-tight comic book costume greatly differ from those of sexual assault.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 07:47 AM

If some boney dude wore a Mr. T costume, I'm pretty sure there'd be comments about his body not matching that of the character.

True, if we just use that one Power Girl example. In the other Power Girl reference, the girl was in an all-black costume, but they still made a Power Girl comment strictly because of her cleavage.

CBR is probably like ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY in terms of approach, but that kind of humor tends to make me think MAXIM. It just doesn't seem to fit.

Indigo Al

03-03-2006, 07:53 AM

It's degrading to women in general. Just because some girls want to play the game doesn't mean men should join in.

Yet, you have no problem tossing out bitchy, cruel comments at these girls who are just having fun with their hobby and trying to make the con more of a carnival atmosphere?

Mac Danny

03-03-2006, 07:59 AM

It's degrading to women in general. Just because some girls want to play the game doesn't mean men should join in.

No But we are happy when they let us join in..

Sorry, i had too.

No one who wears the big boobie shirt is thinking "gee Whiz!! Why is everyone staring at me??"

Tehy want attention, we give it them. It's a sick cycle, but it beats everyone dressing in bags and cassocks.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:04 AM

I disagree.
The difference between the propriety of the comments is about as great as the difference between the situations.

The results of comments about a skin-tight comic book costume greatly differ from those of sexual assault.

"She was askin' for it" doesn't excuse the wrongdoer in either case. That's what I'm saying. OF COURSE assault is worse. But they're both inappropriate and the excuse doesn't work for either.

west3man

03-03-2006, 08:06 AM

Show me one photo/caption in which a man's sexual attractiveness is discussed.Apparently we're not talking about the single example, anymore.

In case you've never* been in this situation before, it's quite a challenge when you're talking about a general situation, then someone disagrees within the context of a specific statement... then while you're talking about that, someone disagrees within the greater context, again.

Just so it's clear, I'm not moving any goal posts. I'm just doing my best to keep up... while sticking to my context until someone makes it clear that they're talking about a somewhat different one. (And there IS a difference between comments about attractiveness and comments about how well a person fits into a character role.)

We've SEEN the inappropriate materal about women. I've proved my part. Where is this equal footing?Assuming you're saying that it's inappropriate to talk about how attractive someone is, I must disagree.

If you're saying that only talking about the attractiveness of one gender is problematic, I could see that. I just think the general tone of the piece matters more than whether there are a few examples of "wow. HOT!" comments within the piece.

I don't know how to access the other photo parade pages, so I don't know how often the attractiveness of males is mentioned. Assuming it's rare, I'm not sure the answer is to remove ALL references to attractiveness or to demand that Jonah comment on how hot Cassaday is or isn't.

Maybe the answer is to have a more diverse group of people commenting on the photos so that both genders are similarly "rated."

* EDITED to add "never"

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 08:07 AM

Yet, you have no problem tossing out bitchy, cruel comments at these girls who are just having fun with their hobby and trying to make the con more of a carnival atmosphere?

Again, though, it's the difference between Random Internet Jerk #329, and Site That Wants To Be Professional. It'd have been just as bad if the front page said "Wow, this chick? Ug-lee."

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:07 AM

Yet, you have no problem tossing out bitchy, cruel comments at these girls who are just having fun with their hobby and trying to make the con more of a carnival atmosphere?

Last I heard, "carnival atmosphere" was something to avoid in most situations.

I don't think I've been that cruel. I've not mentioned their appearance or their personality or whatever. I've said, "Yes, maybe they wanted this attention. That doesn't mean on a professional website, comments should be made like the ones that were made.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 08:11 AM

Assuming you're saying that it's inappropriate to talk about how attractive someone is, I must disagree.

It is unprofessional, especially when done selectivly. then it's sexist. Plus when it's done disparagingly (the small boobs crack) it's even worse.

Maybe the answer is to have a more diverse group of people commenting on the photos so that both genders are similarly "rated."

Or maybe the answer is to not treat people like objects regardless of gender.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 08:11 AM

I don't think I've been that cruel. I've not mentioned their appearance or their personality or whatever. I've said, "Yes, maybe they wanted this attention. That doesn't mean on a professional website, comments should be made like the ones that were made.

Well, you did say the one looked like a man.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:13 AM

I can't make heads or tails of a lot of what you're saying west, so I'll stick to the part I understand.

I think an official site like this one should not be commenting on the physical attractiveness of anyone. It's unprofessional and not becoming a site of this nature.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:14 AM

Well, you did say the one looked like a man.

No, I said he WAS a man. Er, is still. I don't think that's cruel or bitchy, I was just pointing out the facts.

west3man

03-03-2006, 08:15 AM

Again, though, it's the difference between Random Internet Jerk #329, and Site That Wants To Be Professional. It'd have been just as bad if the front page said "Wow, this chick? Ug-lee."This isn't a question of professionalism so much as it is one of propriety. Maybe those kinda go hand-in-hand, but I really have a tough time with the idea that Jonah saying a couple of women were attractive is worse than the fact that...
Last I heard, "carnival atmosphere" was something to avoid in most situations.

I don't think I've been that cruel. I've not mentioned their appearance[...]
...some of your [Joe's] earliest comments in this thread were precisely that, including "It's just . . .if not . . .that's a really ugly woman."

Huh?

03-03-2006, 08:16 AM

Since when is CBR a "professional" website? People don't subscribe to it, or even pay for it. It is a fanzine and a messageboard, no?

tricksterpup

03-03-2006, 08:17 AM

No, I said he WAS a man. Er, is still. I don't think that's cruel or bitchy, I was just pointing out the facts.
Yeah, wasn't Mary Marvel Morts in that picture?

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 08:18 AM

Since when is CBR a "professional" website? People don't subscribe to it, or even pay for it. It is a fanzine and a messageboard, no?

Well, it has advertisers.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think this is the worst example of dodgy content on the internerd.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:18 AM

This isn't a question of professionalism so much as it is one of propriety. Maybe those kinda go hand-in-hand, but I really have a tough time with the idea that Jonah saying a couple of women were attractive is worse than the fact that...

...some of your [Joe's] earliest comments in this thread were precisely that, including "It's just . . .if not . . .that's a really ugly woman."

My comments were unprofessional and inappropriate, I freely admit to it. The fact that I was right and it IS a guy doesn't change that.

As Ed points out, there's a difference between jackass poster 374 saying it and it being on an official CBR page.

Huh?: Jonah does make money from this page. People are paid to do columns, advertisers pay to get banners here.

west3man

03-03-2006, 08:19 AM

I think an official site like this one should not be commenting on the physical attractiveness of anyone. It's unprofessional and not becoming a site of this nature.You've been talking about sexist behavior, not just unprofessionalism. If you only meant sexist behavior from professionals, that was unclear to quite a few of us.

You and others suggest that it's inappropriate to talk about someone's attractiveness, but that's one of the first things you did.

I can kinda feel that there's a difference between the front page and the message board pages, but if it's the act that's sexist, then the distinction hardly matters.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:19 AM

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think this is the worst example of dodgy content on the internerd.

Precisely. I just expect better of the place that, for better or worse, has been my home on the internet for about ten years.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 08:20 AM

This isn't a question of professionalism so much as it is one of propriety. Maybe those kinda go hand-in-hand, but I really have a tough time with the idea that Jonah saying a couple of women were attractive is worse than the fact that...

They kind of dovetail, sure, but there's a difference between... a radio shock jock saying something that gets people twitchy, and fans of his or her message board saying similarly sketchy things.

And it wasn't saying "hey, pretty!" that got people riled--at least, I don't think so. It's just how the tone of things doesn't seem to "fit" with everything else, and how it's particularly weighted towards one gender.

Charles RB

03-03-2006, 08:21 AM

I can't help but think "gee, isn't that girl in the Civilian Justice photo going to get really cold?".

Huh?

03-03-2006, 08:21 AM

Well, it has advertisers.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think this is the worst example of dodgy content on the internerd.That's true, but I wouldn't lump CBR in with the likes of Comic Buyer's Guide, Comics Journal, Wizard etc.

Comments like the one we are discussing in those publications would have me more convinced that they were inappropriate.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:22 AM

You've been talking about sexist behavior, not just unprofessionalism. If you only meant sexist behavior from professionals, that was unclear to quite a few of us.

You and others suggest that it's inappropriate to talk about someone's attractiveness, but that's one of the first things you did.

I can kinda feel that there's a difference between the front page and the message board pages, but if it's the act that's sexist, then the distinction hardly matters.

If "Mary Marvel" was a woman, it would have been a gross, sexist comment.

He wasn't. I pointed out a fact. Not the most appropriate of facts, but a fact nonetheless.

Slam_Bradley

03-03-2006, 08:22 AM

This isn't a question of professionalism so much as it is one of propriety. Maybe those kinda go hand-in-hand, but I really have a tough time with the idea that Jonah saying a couple of women were attractive is worse than the fact that...

...some of your [Joe's] earliest comments in this thread were precisely that, including "It's just . . .if not . . .that's a really ugly woman."

It's absolutely a question of professionalism. CBR holds itself out as THE one-stop shop for comics information. The Comics Wire is a comic book news site/service. It is, by most appearances, striving for a professional niche in this market.

Joe, on the other hand, is an individual. He is posting on a message board attached to the site, but isn't affiliated with CBR in any official capacity. If he says something derogatory it reflects only on Joe Rice, not on CBR.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 08:25 AM

Yeah, wasn't Mary Marvel Morts in that picture?

Hey!

How'd you know that was me?

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 08:25 AM

That's true, but I wouldn't lump CBR in with the likes of Comic Buyer's Guide, Comics Journal, Wizard etc.

Comments like the one we are discussing in those publications would have me more convinced that they were inappropriate.

See, seeing them on sites that present themselves as professional strikes me as just as bad--I don't think print has any more weight inherent in it, as a medium, than a publication that publishes only on-line. If it was one of the smaller "by fans, for fans" sites, I wouldn't have as much of an issue with it.

CBR isn't my site, but it's one of the few that I respect overall, regardless of how much I enjoy the content or approach on any given day. Again, this isn't the most egregious thing I've seen in the online comics world, but if I didn't think CBR was "better than that" to begin with, it wouldn't stick in my craw.

Dreadstar

03-03-2006, 08:26 AM

Last I heard, "carnival atmosphere" was something to avoid in most situations.

Yeah? Then how am I going to get the footage to sell to those "Girls Gone Wild" sites?

"Hey, Mary Marvel! Show us your tits!"

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:26 AM

That's true, but I wouldn't lump CBR in with the likes of Comic Buyer's Guide, Comics Journal, Wizard etc.

Comments like the one we are discussing in those publications would have me more convinced that they were inappropriate.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thing CBR is up there with newsarama, Wizard, etc. when it comes to internet, uh, status?

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 08:27 AM

If "Mary Marvel" was a woman, it would have been a gross, sexist comment.

He wasn't. I pointed out a fact. Not the most appropriate of facts, but a fact nonetheless.

Actually, I'm fairly convinced it is a woman, judging by the bone structure of the pelvis/hip region.

Because, you know, since I watch Bones sometimes, I'm now an expert on skeletal anatomy.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 08:28 AM

CBR is "professional" enough that running it earned Jonah a spot as an Eisner judge a few years ago.

west3man

03-03-2006, 08:28 AM

They kind of dovetail, sure, but there's a difference between... a radio shock jock saying something that gets people twitchy, and fans of his or her message board saying similarly sketchy things.To be fair, a closer example would be a radio professional, not just a shock jock, "saying something that gets people twitchy" and his or her callers doing the same thing... on the air, in the "Chime-in" segment of the show.

And it wasn't saying "hey, pretty!" that got people riled--at least, I don't think so. It's just how the tone of things doesn't seem to "fit" with everything else, and how it's particularly weighted towards one gender.
I think the first thing to note is that different people are talking about different things. "Hey pretty" IS what got some peopled riled-up, if sexism is the point of contention.

A few of us thought the tone was fine. Different strokes, I guess.

I don't think that a world primarily made of heterosexual males and heterosexual females (we assume :p ) ought to have much of a problem with the idea that a male broadcaster is going to be far more likely to comment on the attractiveness of females than other males.

And, like I said before, I don't think talking about someone's attractiveness is a problem. Those that disagree with that are likely to disagree with every other statement built upon it... so this is probably about as good as it'll get.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:29 AM

Actually, I'm fairly convinced it is a woman, judging by the bone structure of the pelvis/hip region.

Because, you know, since I watch Bones sometimes, I'm now an expert on skeletal anatomy.

If so, I'd be very surprised and very ashamed.

The comment was always inappropriate. But at least I used to be sure it was right.

Slam_Bradley

03-03-2006, 08:29 AM

Yeah? Then how am I going to get the footage to sell to those "Girls Gone Wild" sites?

"Hey, Mary Marvel! Show us your tits!"

"Girls Gone Wild - Comic-con." That'll sell.

I think we need to talk financing for this project.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:30 AM

It's fine for regular joes to talk about attractiveness, even if it is rather tacky.

For someone representing a business, it is stupid and unprofessional.

Dreadstar

03-03-2006, 08:31 AM

What if your business is "Girls Gone Wild" videos?

Slam and I need a cinematographer.

cactusmaac

03-03-2006, 08:31 AM

Uhh,"locker-talk"?

The captions are gently mocking and have a spirit of fun about them. There is nothing harsh, insulting or degrading about them.

In other words, totally unlike locker-talk.

Somebody dressing up in a Power Girl costume is naturally going to get remarks about their cleavage since the two things most known about the character are her confusing background and her massive breasts.

There are more important things to get morally indignant about.

As for a "professional" appearance, CBR is a fan site, run and used by fans, not a corporate outpost of some grey Fortune 500 company. The captions felt lke they were written by a fan i.e. genuine and warmhearted.

Better that then "professionalism", prissiness and no sense of humour.

Huh?

03-03-2006, 08:34 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thing CBR is up there with newsarama, Wizard, etc. when it comes to internet, uh, status?Well, newsarama is almost identical to CBR, so their status I would still not consider "professional." Wizard is a professional publication by definition. However, many people (like myself) will not read it because of stupid stuff like sexism and pandering.

I understand what you guys are trying to say, I just don't lump CBR into my list of "professional" publications.

west3man

03-03-2006, 08:35 AM

We'll never know if it was a man or a woman, but...

If it was a woman, calling her ugly was an insult.
If it was a man trying to "be" Mary Marvel, it was an insult.

I'm less concerned with the professionalism aspect than I am with the "be nice" aspect. I know others disagree and that's just life. Oh well.

No wars will be fought over this issue. I can live with disagreeing about it.

Spackling Compound

03-03-2006, 08:36 AM

You know, maybe it's me, but is every mention of women on this one of a sexual nature? (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6812)

Isn't that immature?
I don't think every mention of a woman is sexual. Only a few.

There's also the jokes about guys and girls.

It's immature? Maybe. But how "mature" is being over 10 and dressing up as Catwoman or BurgerKing the Stormtrooper?

I also wonder how mature or sensitive you guys have been to the Mary Marvel person? What if that person is transgender? Isn't that judgemental?

For shame...

Slam_Bradley

03-03-2006, 08:42 AM

I also wonder how mature or sensitive you guys have been to the Mary Marvel person? What if that person is transgender? Isn't that judgemental?

For shame...

Not that I actually said anything about Miss/Mr. Marvel, but I'm very comfortable with being judgmental.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 08:43 AM

It's immature? Maybe. But how "mature" is being over 10 and dressing up as Catwoman or BurgerKing the Stormtrooper?

And yet, those people are considered unfair targets, because we're all nerds here. Or something.

Again, though, my whole point is the tone and all. Cactusmaac disagrees--he likes it. I don't like or dislike it--I just don't think it fits. To each their own.

I also wonder how mature or sensitive you guys have been to the Mary Marvel person? What if that person is transgender? Isn't that judgemental?

For shame...

How funny that you would bring this up...

Again, Random Internet Jerks #329 - #374 vs. Site That Is Advertiser Supported and Pays Some of Its Staff. Saying it doesn't make it right or nice, as West points out, but it also doesn't mean that just because the Peanut Gallery acts goofy, then its ok to have that stuff as part of the published product, especially if that product is supposed to be taken seriously.

Lone Ranger

03-03-2006, 08:44 AM

Better that then "professionalism", prissiness and no sense of humour.

I don't think that if someone doesn't find this stuff funny, it doesn't mean they lack a sense of humour.

This is infantile, frat boy, LCD humour.

I don't find it funny. Others might and good for them.

To me, going for the most obvious joke is lazy humour and it doesn't get the laugh from me. It's pretty pathetic that CBR is stealing material from the Wizard Joke Book.

I just think this kind of shit reflects poorly on comic book culture. Throw all of the awards you want at Art Spiegelman, but all of these pseudo-Jimmy Kimmel commentators will ensure that many people will continue to view comic books as something for children, or at least those who behave like children.

Spackling Compound

03-03-2006, 08:46 AM

How funny that you would bring this up...

Again, Random Internet Jerks #329 - #374 vs. Site That Is Advertiser Supported and Pays Some of Its Staff. Saying it doesn't make it right or nice, as West points out, but it also doesn't mean that just because the Peanut Gallery acts goofy, then its ok to have that stuff as part of the published product, especially if that product is supposed to be taken seriously.
I was talking about people posting on this thread and not CBR.

K'Nort

03-03-2006, 08:47 AM

Okay, I didn't think most of the comments on the women were sexual. Then again, I was specifically looking for them to be because of the initial post, so there's that expectations factor. And the thing about the captions that did get drooly of course is that these women dressed that way specifically to get that reaction and hopefully be on the internet, and you just get used to it, so no biggie there. But insulting or making fun of any of them isn't right. It was a mean thing to do to the PowerGirl and a mean thing to do to the Wolverine. They thought they looked good. If you don't agree, just do a neutral caption. Think about how they will feel reading it, versus everyone else who does. It's not like snark is a novelty or something. Take the high road.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:49 AM

We'll never know if it was a man or a woman, but...

If it was a woman, calling her ugly was an insult.
If it was a man trying to "be" Mary Marvel, it was an insult.

Christ, west, I admitted it was inappropriate. Freely and without duress. I said a bad thing, as people are wont to do.

Companies and official websites, if they're trying to be "the one-stop etc." should have a bit more decorum than talking about women's boobs.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:51 AM

Somebody dressing up in a Power Girl costume is naturally going to get remarks about their cleavage since the two things most known about the character are her confusing background and her massive breasts.

"She was askin' for it!"

Hm, no, still doesn't work.

Lone Ranger handed the rest of this post succinctly.

Slam_Bradley

03-03-2006, 08:51 AM

I don't find it funny. Others might and good for them.

To me, going for the most obvious joke is lazy humour and it doesn't get the laugh from me. It's pretty pathetic that CBR is stealing material from the Wizard Joke Book.

Of course we have to keep in mind that you're Canadian and thus have the "nice gene" imbedded in your DNA.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:52 AM

and you just get used to it, so no biggie there.

That's the bad part.

We shouldn't be used to this.

cactusmaac

03-03-2006, 08:52 AM

I don't think that if someone doesn't find this stuff funny, it doesn't mean they lack a sense of humour.

This is infantile, frat boy, LCD humour.

I don't find it funny. Others might and good for them.

To me, going for the most obvious joke is lazy humour and it doesn't get the laugh from me. It's pretty pathetic that CBR is stealing material from the Wizard Joke Book.

I just think this kind of shit reflects poorly on comic book culture. Throw all of the awards you want at Art Spiegleman, but all of these pseudo-Jimmy Kimmel commentators will ensure that many people will continue to view comics book as something for children, or at least those who behave like children.

I wouldn't say humour tastes in the non-comic reading mainstream public are especially elevated or that they'd see the captions as being noticeabley coarse compared to what they're used to in private or public.

Lone Ranger

03-03-2006, 08:53 AM

Of course we have to keep in mind that you're Canadian and thus have the "nice gene" imbedded in your DNA.

No, it's just that Canadians know funny from not funny.

That's why you continue to woo all of our finest comedians.

*hopes no one will mention Howie Mandel*

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 08:53 AM

We shouldn't be used to this.

Bing-fricking-o.

Now I owe Alex and you drinks.

if you two ever come to another CBRNY I'm gonna go bankrupt, aren't I?

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:54 AM

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:55 AM

if you two ever come to another CBRNY I'm gonna go bankrupt, aren't I?

We'll try to keep away from the single-malts or the aged bourbons.

K'Nort

03-03-2006, 08:55 AM

I wouldn't say humour tastes in the non-comic reading mainstream public are especially elevated or that they'd see the captions as being noticeabley coarse compared to what they're used to in private or public.

I do agree there. There won't be a lot of other special interest forums that involve costumes, specifically, but pretty much any site that involves posting photos is going to say snarky, juvenile things about its subjects. It doesn't make comic fans in particular look bad in that respect. But it would be nice to start moving away from that general trend.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 08:56 AM

The fact that people hear worse is an excuse for sexist comments?

It's called "Defining Deviancy Down". You teach grade school, don't you see it all the time?

"Timmy, stop talking."

"But Janie peaked at a test once!"

"That's nice. We're talking about you, and what you did, right now. That's it. Not what Janie did."

Sadly, people seem fixated at this level at times.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:57 AM

I do agree there. There won't be a lot of other special interest forums that involve costumes, specifically, but pretty much any site that involves posting photos is going to say snarky, juvenile things about its subjects. It doesn't make comic fans in particular look bad in that respect. But it would be nice to start moving away from that general trend.

Yeah. "They do it too!" doesn't work in my class, and it shouldn't work in life.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 08:58 AM

It's called "Defining Deviancy Down". You teach grade school, don't you see it all the time?

"Timmy, stop talking."

"But Janie peaked at a test once!"

"That's nice. We're talking about you, and what you did, right now. That's it. Not what Janie did."

Sadly, people seem fixated at this level at times.

Hm. It doesn't fly in my room. After the first try, they know better.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 08:58 AM

We'll try to keep away from the single-malts or the aged bourbons.

I guess I could stop at my folks or something and swipe a bottle of something really, really good. His bar is Single-Malt Central right now.

Of course, Purim is two weeks away, so a restocking will be needed.

K'Nort

03-03-2006, 08:59 AM

That's the bad part.

We shouldn't be used to this.

And I agree.

It's just that in terms of all the ways that things could be improved for women in our culture, men drooling over someone attractive is really low on my priority list. And although comic fans have the stereotype of taking that to a higher level (more blatant and lower standards), they don't have anything near a monopoly.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 09:00 AM

I guess I could stop at my folks or something and swipe a bottle of something really, really good. His bar is Single-Malt Central right now.

Of course, Purim is two weeks away, so a restocking will be needed.

Heh. My teacher buddy Mr. Wright (the convert to Judaism) always takes the day after St. Patrick's off, and then he's gone for Purim. March is a very boozed up month for him.

Lone Ranger

03-03-2006, 09:00 AM

I wouldn't say humour tastes in the non-comic reading mainstream public are especially elevated or that they'd see the captions as being noticeabley coarse compared to what they're used to in private or public.

One of the points I am trying to make is that many of the people whose tastes run a little more Waiting for Guffman than Van Wilder, will continue to look down upon the funnybook world if they are continualy exposed to boob jokes.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 09:00 AM

Well K'nort, I'm not much of a "prioritizing" person I guess. If I percieve sexism, racism, and other nastyness, I'm going to comment on it. Even if it's "minor".

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 09:02 AM

And I agree.

It's just that in terms of all the ways that things could be improved for women in our culture, men drooling over someone attractive is really low on my priority list. And although comic fans have the stereotype of taking that to a higher level (more blatant and lower standards), they don't have anything near a monopoly.

No doubt. But if we've any influence, it's right here. Affect what you can, then build on what you can affect.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 09:03 AM

In retrospect Joe, you lose your drink for the Mary Marvel crack. Sorry.

cactusmaac

03-03-2006, 09:03 AM

The fact that people hear worse is an excuse for sexist comments?

Caption: An almost perfect Power Girl, except in one area.

Power Girl has large breasts.

Somebody with non-large breasts dressing up as PG would not be an exact visual match for the character.

Sexist remark or statement of fact?

Caption:Power Girl? No, but one part is accurate at least.

Power Girl has a distinctive mid-shirt cut displaying her cleavage as does the con attendee.

Sexist remark or statement of fact?

Caption: I'm not quite sure what book she was there to promote, but does it really matter?

Was this particularly objectionable?

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 09:04 AM

In retrospect Joe, you lose your drink for the Mary Marvel crack. Sorry.

Dangit! Well, it's what I get.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 09:05 AM

Caption: I'm not quite sure what book she was there to promote, but does it really matter?

Was this particularly objectionable?

The more I think about it, that's probably the worst from a comics entertainment news perspective. If the focus is comics, then I'd say it does matter what book she was promoting.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 09:05 AM

Tadhg Adams

03-03-2006, 09:06 AM

Sexist remark or statement of fact?

They're not mutually exclusive.

Slam_Bradley

03-03-2006, 09:07 AM

If I wanted to read someone's comments about random women's breasts, I'd . . .I dunno, I'd be a completely different person. I wouldn't be looking for them here, I imagine.

I'm sure that there are several people here that could direct you to the appropriate breast sites.

And the bourbon is on me next time you're on the left coast.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 09:08 AM

I'm sure that there are several people here that could direct you to the appropriate breast sites.

And the bourbon is on me next time you're on the left coast.

I thought you were in Idaho . . .

Jaye

03-03-2006, 09:08 AM

Davideaux

03-03-2006, 09:09 AM

Much ado about nothing... The remarks seem harmless to me, mild teasing at the most.

cactusmaac

03-03-2006, 09:10 AM

One of the points I am trying to make is that many of the people whose tastes run a little more Waiting for Guffman than Van Wilder, will continue to look down upon the funnybook world if they are continualy exposed to boob jokes.

Perhaps they should learn that the funnybook world is a large and varied one, where the coarse, puerile and lowbrow coexist with the refined, highminded and aesthetically sensitive.

Just like every other field of art, entertainment or literature.

Slam_Bradley

03-03-2006, 09:11 AM

I thought you were in Idaho . . .

I am. But most people think it's Iowa or Ohio. We're only one state away from the coast, be it Oregon or Washington. Just a lil stretch of the legs.

K'Nort

03-03-2006, 09:12 AM

Well K'nort, I'm not much of a "prioritizing" person I guess. If I percieve sexism, racism, and other nastyness, I'm going to comment on it. Even if it's "minor".

I'm not coming close to saying it is not worth commenting on.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 09:13 AM

Perhaps they should learn that the funnybook world is a large and varied one, where the coarse, puerile and lowbrow coexist with the refined, highminded and aesthetically sensitive.

Just like every other field of art, entertainment or literature.

That might be fine, if there was anything but the coarse, puerile, and lowbrow in the example.

Publically degrading women . . .I'm not really going to be behind that in any form at any time, though.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 09:14 AM

I am. But most people think it's Iowa or Ohio. We're only one state away from the coast, be it Oregon or Washington. Just a lil stretch of the legs.

Wow. I'm one of those people finally. I got the Iowa confusion. As much as I hate Kansas/Kentucky confusion, I did it myself.

Lone Ranger

03-03-2006, 09:15 AM

Ok

Here's a test. Granted, it's the worst case scenario - but it could easily happen.

Let's say the girl who is Power Girl is your s/o

You take her to the con, maybe it's even your idea to get dressed in costume. She picks Power Girl and maybe you got as Wildcat (it doesn't really matter).

You are at the con, she is getting some looks and some people ask (hoefully) to take her picture. She is a little nervous at first because the attention is a bit weird, but in the end she starts to feel confident and really starts to enjoy herself and feels great about the way she looks.

Show ends - you go home and move on with your lives.

OK - two days later you get an email from a pal who says some pics from the show are up on CBR. She doesn't really fully understand why you spend all day on that site, but is interested to see what it's all about.

You find the pics, see her and then read the caption.

How does she feel?
How do you feel?
How much of your evening will be spent trying to convince her that she's perfect the way she is?

Is all of that really worth it for some cheap one-liner from some internet dork?

Doubt it.

The lesson: If you don't want to hear that kind of joke about your woman, don't encourage it about other women.

K'Nort

03-03-2006, 09:16 AM

Publically degrading women . . .I'm not really going to be behind that in any form at any time, though.

What about mocking the Wolverine guy, though? I'm not sure the fact it wasn't breast-related makes it less objectionable. And if it was a woman's website, the crack could be seen as sexist instead of just snarky. Just like their commenting on the women would be seen in a different light. I'd like folks to be civil in general. Chivalry gets tricky.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 09:18 AM

What about mocking the Wolverine guy, though? I'm not sure the fact it wasn't breast-related makes it less objectionable. And if it was a woman's website, the crack could be seen as sexist instead of just snarky. Just like their commenting on the women would be seen in a different light. I'd like folks to be civil in general. Chivalry gets tricky.

Good point, K. My own brand of sexism got in the way there. Didn't even notice the Wolverine comment.

cactusmaac

03-03-2006, 09:18 AM

Cactus, even if they are factual, those are sexist remarks. They are demeaning remarks. And they're most certainly unprofessional remarks.

If I wanted to read someone's comments about random women's breasts, I'd . . .I dunno, I'd be a completely different person. I wouldn't be looking for them here, I imagine.

Personally I see them being made in the spirit of playful fun.

Like: "I am giant Lego thing! I will eat con goers! Beware my eyes and all their redness! RAWR!"

And really, there are about 50-odd captioned photos on the page, only a few of which could be seen as being objectionable.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 09:20 AM

Personally I see them being made in the spirit of playful fun.

Like: "I am giant Lego thing! I will eat con goers! Beware my eyes and all their redness! RAWR!"

And really, there are about 50-odd captioned photos on the page, only a few of which could be seen as being objectionable.

We're not discussing the non-objectionable ones. The presence of ANY "ha ha look at her boobs" captions cheapens it all. The fact that they exist is the problem. Their number is irrelevant.

Lone Ranger

03-03-2006, 09:20 AM

Perhaps they should learn that the funnybook world is a large and varied one, where the coarse, puerile and lowbrow coexist with the refined, highminded and aesthetically sensitive.

Just like every other field of art, entertainment or literature.

Fine, but shit like this makes it more difficult to convince people that there is a refined, highminded and aesthetically sensitive portion of the the funnybook world.

cactusmaac

03-03-2006, 09:26 AM

Ok

Let's say the girl who is Power Girl is your s/o

You take her to the con, maybe it's even your idea to get dressed in costume. She picks Power Girl and maybe you got as Wildcat (it doesn't really matter).

You are at the con, she is getting some looks and some people ask (hoefully) to take her picture. She is a little nervous at first because the attention is a bit weird, but in the end she starts to feel confident and really starts to enjoy herself and feels great about the way she looks.

Show ends - you go home and move on with your lives.

OK - two days later you get an email from a pal who says some pics from the show are up on CBR. She doesn't really fully understand why you spend all day on that site, but is interested to see what it's all about.

You find the pics, see her and then read the caption.

How does she feel?
How do you feel?
How much of your evening will be spent trying to convince her that she's perfect the way she is?

Is all of that really worth it for some cheap one-liner from some internet dork?

Doubt it.

The lesson: If you don't want to hear that kind of joke about your woman, don't encourage it about other women.

I'd say she (and myself) would be pretty naive if we didn't expect some sort of reaction to her going out in public in a cleavage-exposing, superhero costume.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 09:34 AM

I'd say she (and myself) would be pretty naive if we didn't expect some sort of reaction to her going out in public in a cleavage-exposing, superhero costume.

Again, you're saying "she asked for it"

And even if she did it to show off her chest, then that doesn't mnean seeing said chest dissed is going to make her feel better.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 09:35 AM

Good point, K. My own brand of sexism got in the way there. Didn't even notice the Wolverine comment.

Same here--also, not cool. I was only looking at the ones with the boo--I mean, the ones Morts talked about in the first post. It weighted how I looked at things (although I did e-mail Jonah to identify a small presser in one of the pictures, as I recognized him).

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 09:36 AM

Fine, but shit like this makes it more difficult to convince people that there is a refined, highminded and aesthetically sensitive portion of the the funnybook world.

In that regard, though, I don't think the segment of the public that might need convincing is reading Comic Book Resources, nor would that be the best place to convince them.

Spackling Compound

03-03-2006, 09:42 AM

In that regard, though, I don't think the segment of the public that might need convincing is reading Comic Book Resources, nor would that be the best place to convince them.
I like the "smart ads" on these pages. When Ed is the only one posting, it advertises "Cunard Cruises"....gotta love it.

K'Nort

03-03-2006, 09:43 AM

I like the "smart ads" on these pages. When Ed is the only one posting, it advertises "Cunard Cruises"....gotta love it.

Hey Ed! Can you get us a discount?

cactusmaac

03-03-2006, 09:45 AM

Again, you're saying "she asked for it"

And even if she did it to show off her chest, then that doesn't mnean seeing said chest dissed is going to make her feel better.

Actions have consequences.

If my S\O were to go out and about in a PG costume, she'd get a reaction, the same as if she went shopping in lingerie or with panties on her head.

The same as if I went to a con dressed in a loincloth.

She and I would have asked for it, the same as if we left the house unlocked and came back to see we had been robbed while at the con.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 09:48 AM

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 09:49 AM

Hey Ed! Can you get us a discount?

The Cunard family sold the line a long time ago, and I'm not even sure we were related to those Cunards within the past 150 years--my side split off to Ireland a long time before the family got into the naval game.

Although I have to say that I'm tempted to sign up just to see if I get a free upgrade.

Michael P

03-03-2006, 10:03 AM

I have no idea what you mean by this post.

What does 'breast-focus' mean?

Do you think that woman wanted some mouth breather to comment on the size of here breasts on a website? I doubt it.
Yeah, that was just a crass and stupid comment. I mean, she obviously put a lot of work into the costume (I saw it in person as well, and it was a great job), and this bozo goes "Har, her tits are too small!" I'd be insulted if it were me.

In happier news, I got to pet Krypto the Helper-Dog at one point.

tricksterpup

03-03-2006, 10:06 AM

Hey!

How'd you know that was me?
Those pretty legs gave it away.

Slam_Bradley

03-03-2006, 10:07 AM

In happier news, I got to pet Krypto the Helper-Dog at one point.

Now that would be a cool pic.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 10:09 AM

In happier news, I got to pet Krypto the Helper-Dog at one point.

I just clicked back over to see what you were talking about--I thought I saw a dog picture before. After reading the caption, that's a cool-ass story. Superdog, indeed.

west3man

03-03-2006, 10:11 AM

The lesson: If you don't want to hear that kind of joke about your woman, don't encourage it about other women.
That still comes down to "be nice to people, gender be-damned."

west3man

03-03-2006, 10:13 AM

Immediate actions have immediate consequences, yes. If someone had said something rude to her at the con, then yes, I see your argument.

I mean, it's a week later.

Also, fifty bucks says that the guy who wrote that caption would ever say that to her face.
There's a lot of things a lot of people say on the internet or on late night talk shows that they'd never say to someone's face. This one doesn't make the short list.

tricksterpup

03-03-2006, 10:14 AM

In happier news, I got to pet Krypto the Helper-Dog at one point.
You'll pet anything wont you..

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 10:15 AM

Actions have consequences.

If my S\O were to go out and about in a PG costume, she'd get a reaction, the same as if she went shopping in lingerie or with panties on her head.

The same as if I went to a con dressed in a loincloth.

She and I would have asked for it, the same as if we left the house unlocked and came back to see we had been robbed while at the con.

Just because "she asked for it" and made it easier to do, doesn't mean you should do it.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 10:16 AM

There's a lot of things a lot of people say on the internet or on late night talk shows that they'd never say to someone's face. This one doesn't make the short list.

Really?

I'm sorry man, but I don't agree.

Making fun of someone's chest on a heavy traffic comic site? Remember, they weren't mocking the costume, they were talking about her secondary sexual characteristics.

You don't think that's bad?

We're not comparing it to anything. We're talking about this and only this right now Answer me straight: In-and-of-itself - do you think it is okay to post a picture of a stranger on a high traffic web site and mock her physical appearance?

Michael P

03-03-2006, 10:21 AM

There's a lot of things a lot of people say on the internet or on late night talk shows that they'd never say to someone's face. This one doesn't make the short list.
The hell it doesn't. Would you say to the woman's face, "Great power Girl costume, except your chest is too small?"

Now, maybe you wouldn't, but the guy who wrote it would. In which case, he needs to be slapped.

west3man

03-03-2006, 10:22 AM

Really?

I'm sorry man, but I don't agree.

Making fun of someone's chest on a heavy traffic comic site? Remember, they weren't mocking the costume, they were talking about her secondary sexual characteristics.

You don't think that's bad?

We're not comparing it to anything. We're talking about this and only this right now Answer me straight: In-and-of-itself - do you think it is okay to post a picture of a stranger on a high traffic web site and mock her physical appearance?Again, the comment was relative to her filling the role she was playing.

As I said before, if some guy were dressed as Mr. T., but lacked the musculature or size, he'd be mocked... and probably a helluva lot worse than "An almost perfect [...], except in one area."

If both were of the "almost perfect" variety, I'd be fine with that, for the most part.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 10:25 AM

Now, maybe you wouldn't, but the guy who wrote it would. In which case, he needs to be slapped.

You think he would? I think he wouldn't. Which makes it worse.

It's one thing to be a jerk to someone's face. But behind their backs? That's worse.

west3man

03-03-2006, 10:25 AM

The hell it doesn't. Would you say to the woman's face, "Great power Girl costume, except your chest is too small?"

Now, maybe you wouldn't, but the guy who wrote it would. In which case, he needs to be slapped.If that's the criterion then Brian's got a helluva lotta pruning to do because there's a lot of shit that gets said around here... without anyone saying a word, that'd not just rude, but that many wouldn't say to that person's face.

And even if they would, there's little reason they should.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 10:25 AM

Again, the comment was relative to her filling the role she was playing.

As I said before, if some guy were dressed as Mr. T., but lacked the musculature or size, he'd be mocked... and probably a helluva lot worse than "An almost perfect [...], except in one area."

If both were of the "almost perfect" variety, I'd be fine with that, for the most part.

If frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their ass every time they jumped.

You're hinging your argument on nonexistent hypotheticals.

On top of that, it would be unprofessional in either case and I wouldn't want to see it at CBR.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 10:27 AM

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 10:29 AM

AGAIN, west, there's a difference between internet jackasses and the official page.

Right.

I don't see why that's a hard concept to grasp.

At the end of the day west, I don't think Joe, Michael, or myself are ever going to convince you that this was, at the very least, darn tacky. Which is fine, you're free tot hink as you do just as we are to think as we do.

I'm just glad I'm not the only person who feels this way though. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Spackling Compound

03-03-2006, 10:30 AM

If that's the criterion then Brian's got a helluva lotta pruning to do because there's a lot of shit that gets said around here... without anyone saying a word, that'd not just rude, but that many wouldn't say to that person's face.

And even if they would, there's little reason they should.
True that.
I eat a lot of shit here and dish it as well.
Actually, if it came to it, I would say what I write here to someone's face.
But then again, in normal paralance, "Do you like to suck toes?" "Do you want to have sex with a gay hillbilly?" and "Would you kill Jesus?" aren't the type of conversations I get into except on this board.

west3man

03-03-2006, 10:30 AM

If frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their ass every time they jumped.

You're hinging your argument on nonexistent hypotheticals.I'm really not.

The comment was framed as I described it. I gave an example to parallel that.

That hypothetical example was not the crux of my argument. It was an illustration of my point.

On top of that, it would be unprofessional in either case and I wouldn't want to see it at CBR.For the nth time, you've got a point.

"Christ, Joe, I admitted it was inappropriate. Freely and without duress."

tricksterpup

03-03-2006, 10:30 AM

Hey why is everyone Bitching about this? It's not like he took pictures of Fat Chicks in Chainmail armour and commented on it.

west3man

03-03-2006, 10:33 AM

AGAIN, west, there's a difference between internet jackasses and the official page.I know this is close to your heart and I don't fault you for that, but let's stay on the same page.

I've agreed that there's substance to your point. When someone else raises a subpoint, it isn't necessarily of the "internet jackasses vs official page" variety. Michael may agree with your point, but that's not the point he presented.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 10:36 AM

I'm really not.

The comment was framed as I described it. I gave an example to parallel that.

That hypothetical example was not the crux of my argument. It was an illustration of my point.

"If someone described a guy like that, it wouldn't be sexist."

They did not.

For the nth time, you've got a point.

"Christ, Joe, I admitted it was inappropriate. Freely and without duress."

Then stop bringing it up. If there's a point to the difference between the site and jackasses on the interent saying something, stop comparing them as if they were equals.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 10:38 AM

I know this is close to your heart and I don't fault you for that, but let's stay on the same page.

I've agreed that there's substance to your point. When someone else raises a subpoint, it isn't necessarily of the "internet jackasses vs official page" variety. Michael may agree with your point, but that's not the point he presented.

Michael, would you agree it's one bad thing for internet jackasses to say things they wouldn't say to someone's face but worse in many ways for the official site to to do so?

Slam_Bradley

03-03-2006, 10:41 AM

Then stop bringing it up. If there's a point to the difference between the site and jackasses on the interent saying something, stop comparing them as if they were equals.

But then he couldn't do that devil's advocate, both sides of the issue, no firm stance thing that he loves so much.

west3man

03-03-2006, 10:42 AM

Right.

I don't see why that's a hard concept to grasp.

At the end of the day west, I don't think Joe, Michael, or myself are ever going to convince you that this was, at the very least, darn tacky.I've already agreed that it was best left unsaid. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=2743889&postcount=44) I don't see why that's such a hard concept to grasp.

"agree that this comment was best left off the "official" page, but I also think it'd have easily been made in a thread and that little would've been thought of it.

. . .

To be clear, I think the comments were best left unsaid... but mostly because of how sweet she looks and the fact that it's on the main page of the website (though it seems to be an artificial distinction between the main page and a thread, somewhere)."

Which is fine, you're free tot hink as you do just as we are to think as we do.

I'm just glad I'm not the only person who feels this way though. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy.I'm just glad that someone else paid attention to what I said 9 pages, ago, and multiple times since instead of acting like I'm King Clueless.

I'm only a Duke, at best. Dukey Clue i' what they call me.

west3man

03-03-2006, 10:44 AM

"If someone described a guy like that, it wouldn't be sexist."

They did not.Big difference between that and hinging my point upon a hypothetical. You're gonna judge. Fine. Just judge me by what I've actually done.

Then stop bringing it up. If there's a point to the difference between the site and jackasses on the interent saying something, stop comparing them as if they were equals.
You'll have to forgive me, Mr. Rice, for feeling that I have the right to bring up any damned thing I choose when it is relevant to someone's point. Not everyone's statement mirrors yours and not everything is in the same context.

You'd do well to remember that. Since you can't seem to...

west3man

03-03-2006, 10:46 AM

But then he couldn't do that devil's advocate, both sides of the issue, no firm stance thing that he loves so much.
Please. Learn a new tune. One that has a beat would be great.

I've taken a stance on this and did so from the very beginning. If you don't like me, Slam, or Joe, or whomever, that's unfortunate, but wholly distinct from whether or not I have proven a point or played Devil's Advocate.

It'd serve these conversations a helluva lot better if you'd allow them to remain about the topic instead of whether or not someone's taken a damned stance you happen to disagree with.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 10:46 AM

To be clear, I think the comments were best left unsaid... but mostly because of how sweet she looks and the fact that it's on the main page of the website (though it seems to be an artificial distinction between the main page and a thread, somewhere)."

Why do you see that distinction as artificial?

west3man

03-03-2006, 10:47 AM

Since it's clear that this is becoming a gripe session about something so not worth griping about, a complaint session about my hesitance to do things I've done quite often and early in this very thread, I'll be departing, for the moment.

Peace.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 10:49 AM

I've already agreed that it was best left unsaid. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=2743889&postcount=44) I don't see why that's such a hard concept to grasp.

Then why the hell are we still talking about this? What point are you trying to make. We obviously don't understand your position as it's taken nine pages to get even the slightest grasp on it.

Can you be a bit less opaque?

west3man

03-03-2006, 10:49 AM

Why do you see that distinction as artificial?
Maybe I'll talk to you in p.m. or something, Ed, but this thread is becoming a mess... as if *I've* been dissing fangirls or something.

I'm more than willing to discuss this with someone who can deal with different opinions in a civil manner.

west3man

03-03-2006, 10:50 AM

Then why the hell are we still talking about this? What point are you trying to make. We obviously don't understand your position as it's taken nine pages to get even the slightest grasp on it.

Can you be a bit less opaque?
If it took you nine pages to understand something on the first damned page, perhaps you ought to look within as critically as you look without.

Til then, play this silly little game with someone else, Typo.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 10:53 AM

I'm not playing a game west. This isn't about you.

Honmest to G-d, I want to know what point you were trying to make. I obviously don't get it. Yes, I'm putting it on me. You say we're in agreement about it being tacky, so then what's the issue? After all, no-one's really arguing if she shouldn't or should have worn that costume in the first palce, are they? The point of the thread was "are these photos sexist?".

Spackling Compound

03-03-2006, 10:55 AM

The point of the thread was "are these photos sexist?".
Photos are not sexist.
The comments may be sexist. And sexist in that they came from a male, heterosexual perspective and not a LGBT/heterosexual friendly perspective.

Fabian

03-03-2006, 10:56 AM

I didn't see anything bad. I read the comment more about the ridiculousness of Power Girl's chest than on the person. They did use the Power Girl line twice and that's never good in humor

There was one comment on Wolverine too and also on Batman's nipples.

It seems odd to get up in arms over it though. Yeah yeah, it's a professional site and we must rise above such things but I saw it as a fluff piece. Some people in good humor dress up on costume and someone tried to be witty with some captions.

Fabian

03-03-2006, 10:58 AM

Photos are not sexist.
The comments may be sexist. And sexist in that they came from a male, heterosexual perspective and not a LGBT/heterosexual friendly perspective.
They could be. Like they could have been taking photos of nothing but scantily clad women dressed as the Chaos Girls and never show saw a woman dressed as Oracle.

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 10:59 AM

I'll take it upon myself, too, because I apparently do not understand west's position at all, either. If he agrees that the remarks were inappropriate, what is his point?

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 10:59 AM

Photos are not sexist.
The comments may be sexist.

Point to you, sir.

And sexist in that they came from a male, heterosexual perspective and not a LGBT/heterosexual friendly perspective.

LGBT? Izzat a kind of sammich?

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 11:01 AM

I'll take it upon myself, too, because I apparently do not understand west's position at all, either. If he agrees that the remarks were inappropriate, what is his point?

As I understand it from reading this thread, he thinks the bigger issue isn't the difference between sites and posters, but the general inappropriateness of it--that it is the content itself that is the problem, not the place from which it originates.

Fabian

03-03-2006, 11:01 AM

LGBT? Izzat a kind of sammich?
No but the salads are delicious

Expletive Deleted

03-03-2006, 11:02 AM

... for the official site to to do so?It's worth noting that as "official" as this these photos are, it was (I'm pretty sure) just Jonah wandering around taking pictures and posting them. He does that at cons.

Apologies for my repetitiveness if anyone else has already pointed this out.

EDIT: And I see that they have. Nevermind!

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 11:03 AM

As I understand it from reading this thread, he thinks the bigger issue isn't the difference between sites and posters, but the general inappropriateness of it--that it is the content itself that is the problem, not the place from which it originates.

So in other words, we're all in agreement and sniping over the small details.

Hnh.

FYI gang, I think it's wrong on the boards too. I just think it's worse on the frontpage.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 11:06 AM

So in other words, we're all in agreement and sniping over the small details.

Well, no. Again, that's not exactly it. From where I'm standing, the question isn't whether it's appropriate overall or not (where you and West likely agree), but my point is based strictly on where it is originating from. I don't find the idea of offensive material... er, offensive... I'm not even offended by it. My only horse in the race is its placement, which I find unfortunate.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 11:06 AM

And it's not a big horse. It's probably a pony. Or something else smaller, but still horse-like.

Fabian

03-03-2006, 11:09 AM

This got me wondering. . .

Since a friend of mine lost a bet and she has to come with me to WWLA one day dressed as Psylocke, would there be a comment how she's not Yuriko enough?

cactusmaac

03-03-2006, 11:09 AM

As I understand it from reading this thread, he thinks the bigger issue isn't the difference between sites and posters, but the general inappropriateness of it--that it is the content itself that is the problem, not the place from which it originates.

This is a mostly Big Two-oriented comic book site.

It discusses juvenile fluff material by definition.

I'd have the thought the comments would be weird if the photos were being hosted at tcj.com or the Comics Reporter, but CBR's always been quite more fanboyish.

Typo Lad

03-03-2006, 11:10 AM

And it's not a big horse. It's probably a pony. Or something else smaller, but still horse-like.

A pygme Cylsdale?

http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/0740750992.01._PE15_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Dreadstar

03-03-2006, 11:16 AM

This got me wondering. . .

Since a friend of mine lost a bet and she has to come with me to WWLA one day dressed as Psylocke, would there be a comment how she's not Yuriko enough?

This is fanboys we're talking about here.

Of course someone would. Only not to her face, of course.

Ed Cunard

03-03-2006, 11:21 AM

This is a mostly Big Two-oriented comic book site.

It discusses juvenile fluff material by definition.

I'd have the thought the comments would be weird if the photos were being hosted at tcj.com or the Comics Reporter, but CBR's always been quite more fanboyish.

I think we need to decide whether it's juvenile fluff or not--some people take it deadly seriously, and get cross when the TCJ crowd calls it such. That point aside, just because someone's dealing with "fluff" doesn't mean they want to be "fluffers," necessarily (please disregard the porn use of that term--I wasn't trying to pun).

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 11:26 AM

Joe Rice

03-03-2006, 11:31 AM

Well, no. Again, that's not exactly it. From where I'm standing, the question isn't whether it's appropriate overall or not (where you and West likely agree), but my point is based strictly on where it is originating from. I don't find the idea of offensive material... er, offensive... I'm not even offended by it. My only horse in the race is its placement, which I find unfortunate.

I also agree with this.

In other words: it would be better if no one said these things.

It is worse when the official face has the comments.

Michael P

03-03-2006, 11:44 AM

Michael, would you agree it's one bad thing for internet jackasses to say things they wouldn't say to someone's face but worse in many ways for the official site to to do so?
Yes. The boards here are the modern equivalent of CB radio; we're just a bunch of amateurs putzing around, and so are subject only to the basic rules of civility. The site is supposed to be professional, and thus violated both the "asshole" rule and the "professional" rules.

Spackling Compound

03-03-2006, 11:49 AM

It's worth noting that as "official" as this these photos are, it was (I'm pretty sure) just Jonah wandering around taking pictures and posting them. He does that at cons.

Apologies for my repetitiveness if anyone else has already pointed this out.

EDIT: And I see that they have. Nevermind!
The photos are ok, I think.
The comments are what has brought about most of the complaints.
Did Jonah caption the pictures?

Hoss

03-03-2006, 11:58 AM

Is anyone going to post anymore pictures of girls with big tatas dressed up as Superheroines? Those are neat.

atlcane

03-03-2006, 12:05 PM

I am probably going to get flamed for saying this but some of those pictures 1) Are the reason I don't tell many people I read comics. 2) I order my comics over the Internet. 3) I never go to comic conventions.

Triumph the Insult Dog said it best at the Star Wars: Attack of the Clones opening in New York. He told a pregnant woman, who was geeked up in Star Wars gear, that her unborn son's only interaction with a vagina would be at birth.

Ray R.

03-03-2006, 12:10 PM

Yes. The boards here are the modern equivalent of CB radio; we're just a bunch of amateurs putzing around, and so are subject only to the basic rules of civility. The site is supposed to be professional, and thus violated both the "asshole" rule and the "professional" rules.

I see the issue here, particularly with that one comment on the lack of "breastitude," in the Powergirl wannabe, but I kinda have to fall back on intent.

I think to hit the asshole or unprofessional threshhold there needs to be some sort of malicious, or at best, unintentionally derogatory, intent. If it was Jonah or some other person who wrote the captions, I think you'd be hard-pressed to infer malicious or intentional derogatory meaning into the captions.

They're an attempt at humor. Humor can amuse as well as offend. Perhaps it's inappropriate, perhaps not. But I think it depends on your own interpretation, since I don't think intent to offend is at play.

And let's look big picture here. It's a bunch of random photographs of artists, retailers and cosplay participants at the New York Con. Frankly, I think the people with the most interest in the photos are artists, retailers, and cosplay participants, plus fans of the above. For those of us who really don't care about who showed up at what com, putting a half-hearted attempt at humor into a pretty banal photo collection is, as crimes go, pretty minuscule. Again, based on your perspective, inappropriate. Or maybe not.

And I think the fanboy fratboy drooling pervert thing specifically associated with superhero comics is a little bit overplayed. I turn on Keith Olbermann's "Countdown" last night, and there's five minutes about how Lindsey Lohan's nipple fell out of her shirt at some car/fashion show, and earlier hubbub about Scarlett Johansson's ass on the cover of Vanity Fair. This society IN GENERAL, from Time Magazine to the New York Times Sunday Magazine to Wizard Toilet Paper/Magazine, acts like one of Tex Avery's bug-eyed wolf characters every time some bubble-headed actress like Tara Reid exposes one of her tits. In comparison, superhero comics aren't fluff. They're not going to rank up on the scale of world literature with Shakespeare or Uris or Fitzgerald or any thing remotely close, but I find the association with readers of superhero comics as a bunch of arrested adolescent chronic masturbators kind of off the mark. It's escapist enter