Batman Annual spoilers

[stillanerd]

Anyone what to know how Jason Todd came back? It was:

Superboy Prime.

EDIT: As it was pointed out by Nick Kal, I got the details wrong. Turns out it wasn't what happened as a result of Infinite Crisis #4 and him being trapped in the Speed Force. Apparently, it occured when Superboy Prime was still in the paradise world when he tried to escape from the "paradise world". I recieved this information from another source and I should have posted it before hand. Here it is: http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21619&page=1&pp=16
and because it was part of the same thread, I jumped to conclusions. I am deeply sorry if I unintentionally mislead anyone and it won't happen again.

(But I still think it's lame that Superboy Prime brought Jason Todd back from the dead as a result of a temper tantrum.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I swear, I was about to type up the exact same thing!

...And how disappointing is that reveal? Looks like this is the nastiest bit of fallout from Infinite Crisis so far.

[Buried Alien]

Of course, that still doesn't explain how Jason has obtained financing and training for his new life as the Red Hood. The Red Hood Jason is much more capable than Robin Jason once was.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Guts/Batman]

This only makes continuity worse...

This is crazy. I am going to be pikcing this up for the laughs. This oughta be good. My reaction when I saw this "What. The. ****."

[mohammedali]

I'm really tempted to read this, but I won't. I can't. I've waited so long.

Mohammed Ali

[Indefatigable]

I knew it, haha. I wonder what else they're gonna explain using this.

[Maleficentogre]

oh weaksauce. I'm not sure I even want to pick up annual now. I know I'm going to, but I don't want to.

[jwd]

This only makes continuity worse...



I get the feeling IC has nothing to do with "fixing continuity" . If anything its going to make it even more loose and flexible. I think mainly they're just going to focus on new stories and while most of the continuity will remain intack they're not going to fret over possibly contradicting things from early in the heroes careers. They'll just use the multiverse/weird time occurences/crisis stuff to say "that's no longer in continuity" or something.

I personally don't have a big problem with it as long as they keep the characters consistant and don't write them in some oddball way so they can force a story that doesn't really fit that character.

[Hellstormer]

Wait Jason appeared way before IC so how th heck did the flashes attack Superboy and mess with him to bring back Jason after Jason was already back, he did afterall say that it was him in HUSH but he switched with Clayface.

[Guts/Batman]

The "when" of this is what gets me. When the Hell did Superboy do this? How does this happen Pre-Hush?

[Sabrinaset]

Hmm, half-expecting that "Earth-8" explanation to be a part of it...!

[Guts/Batman]

*clip*

Can you spoil bracket this? Mohammedali said he hasn't highlighted it. I know this says spoilers on the top but out of respect for that, might I suggest putting spoiler brackets around your post?

[Young Avenger]

Judd Winick, I hate you. That is all I have to say.

[Generic Eric]

You have got to be shitting me. That just reaks of bad fan fiction. :rolleyes: Time Travel, What the hellOh whell. Maybe it will read better in the actual comic than it does in the spoiler tags.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

As I said in the death spiral thread, this just shows how much of a hack some people can be.


Winnick saw an opportunity in IC to bring back Jason Todd (though he's probably the only one who wanted that to happen). I think he even said that in an interview about the Annual. That punk......


Wow! I can't believe I'm ranting about how bad an issue is. Normally I don't do that. :confused:

[Guts/Batman]

Judd Winick, I hate you. That is all I have to say.

Indeed. That said, I'm still gonna buy it. I am really looking forward to this Annual now. :evilsmile

Ignore what I said about Judd and Geoff not being on the same page...

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Judd Winick, I hate you. That is all I have to say.

I agree! :mad:

[Sabrinaset]

Well, look at the bright side. If this is true, at least ASB&R will finally have some competition for Worst Comic of 2006...

[Guts/Batman]

Well, look at the bright side. If this is true, at least ASB&R will finally have some competition for Worst Comic of 2006...

nahhh...

This doesn't sound as bad as WW #226 was. Which is kind of sad.

[Young Avenger]

Indeed. That said, I'm still gonna buy it. I am really looking forward to this Annual now. :evilsmile

Ignore what I said about Judd and Geoff not being on the same page...

I'm going to read it at the shop. I need to know what would possess the higher ups at DC to go along with such a terrible idea. Winnick will only get that much out of me.

[Choppa]

So it doesn't explain how he can suddenly stand up to Batman in a fight? Or why he chose to call himself the Red Hood? Or why he is older? Or why he carries that bent dagger? Or where he was all this time? Or where his body is?

[AlistairCrane]

LMFAO! This is so ridiculous. DC, could ya be anymore retarded?!

[Guts/Batman]

I'm going to read it at the shop. I need to know what would possess the higher ups at DC to go along with such a terrible idea. Winnick will only get that much out of me.

If it would have been set up better, it wouldn't be so bad but now it just comes out of nowhere. I'm sure there is some explanation that is in the comic itself but this idea just sounds bad.

The idea is not inherently bad but it's just that the timing of this Annual is just plain horrible.

[Be Stiff]

Superboy Prime's speedforce trip is the new hypertime?

[AlistairCrane]

So he was dead, but now he's not thanks to some hocus pocus? :rolleyes:

[Maleficentogre]

The more I think of this the sicker I get.

[Be Stiff]

I just realised something. Judd Winick is biting the Invisibles' nuts with this one. Superboy totally went John O' Dreams when he was trapped in the SF.

[Guts/Batman]

I would have said just toss him in a modified Lazarus Pit. Why did we need this elaborate of an explanation?

[the goddamn batman]

Well, look at the bright side. If this is true, at least ASB&R will finally have some competition for Worst Comic of 2006...


No way, this wins worst comic by a long shot. All-Star might not be awesome, or very good by Miller standards, but it isn't re writing continuity, and making it worse.

this just sucks.

[Maleficentogre]

there is absolutely no correct timeframe possible for this scenario. unless batman happens in the future. I was thinking this had something to do with raven and brother blood or something (I know that happened after jason came back too, but I could accept that cop-out easier than this one). Arrrgh. superboy's a joke and so is this story.
guys I suck at the internet I'm sorry.

[Guts/Batman]

I can't wait to get my comics now. Purely for this issue...

Winick...you devil.

[Choppa]

If it would have been set up better, it wouldn't be so bad but now it just comes out of nowhere. I'm sure there is some explanation that is in the comic itself but this idea just sounds bad.

The idea is not inherently bad but it's just that the timing of this Annual is just plain horrible.

I totally agree with that. There's been nothing that points to the events of IC having anything to do with what's been going on in the Batman books and all of a sudden it plays a huge role? F that.

[Guts/Batman]

Yep...

Winick had just written Chemo dropping on Bludhaven into his Red Hood story right out of nowhere...

[Indefatigable]

It gives me the feeling they had Jason return before they thought about how.

[Violently Apathetic]

Winnick saw an opportunity in IC to bring back Jason Todd (though he's probably the only one who wanted that to happen). I think he even said that in an interview about the Annual. That punk......



Not the only one, dude, Jim Lee* wanted him back, Hell I wanted him back.

Honestly, what were you expecting? This wasn't Bucky with a missing corpse, you KNEW there was little to no chance the explanation was going to be solid...Is this what I wanted? No, not really, but I honestly can't think of anything more plausible.

That said, why Did Superboy want Jason back? Was he hot for him or something? I mean, sure, he looks NICE in those tight pants, but I didn't think Superboy went in for that sort of thing...

* I think it was Jim Lee, or the person giving the commentary in the Jim Lee art collection, I don't remember.

[jetter_cheeze]

This makes perfect sense. Think about it, Superboy doesn't like the darkness of the DCU. One of the things that went totally dark in Batman's world was the death of Todd. so maybe Superboy was nieve enough to think that bringing Todd back would help batman. Turns out he was wrong, but isn't superboy wrong about a lot of things lately?

Todd's return is the result of bringing a very powerful nonspeedster into the speedforce. How does that not make sense? (and seriously, if you can accept multiple earths, why not accept this as well?)

[Maleficentogre]

that sounds like his kind of logic. (I still suck at the internet)

[Sabrinaset]

The thing is, Jetter-Cheeze's explanation actually makes a great deal of sense, and I could actually sort of accept that, IF it was written correctly.


This being DC, I'm not going to have high hopes for that, though...

[Sharcque]

Ok, so, "event x", that happened in I.C. 4, brought someone back to life before that event ever happened? Huh? :confused: Am I getting this right?

[AlistairCrane]

Being in the speed force, SBP was surrounded by shards of things that happened in the past (or throughout time). So when he hit the shard, he changed time so that Jason was resurrected. So that means he's been alive all this time after all. He was just dead for a tiny bit. Maybe his soul is still in heaven, which explains his appearances in the past as a ghost. And if he has no soul, that would explain why he's evil now.

Ok, so this isn't that bad anymore...

[Sharcque]

Being in the speed force, SBP was surrounded by shards of things that happened in the past (or throughout time). So when he hit the shard, he changed time so that Jason was resurrected. So that means he's been alive all this time after all. He was just dead for a tiny bit. Maybe his soul is still in heaven, which explains his appearances in the past as a ghost. And if he has no soul, that would explain why he's evil now.

Ok, so this isn't that bad anymore...
So, if he was just dead for a tiny bit, where's he been all this time? And didn't Batman discover that there was never a body in the coffin? This story directly contradicts that.

[AlistairCrane]

So, if he was just dead for a tiny bit, where's he been all this time? And didn't Batman discover that there was never a body in the coffin? This story directly contradicts that.
Apparently Jason dug his way out of the coffin and replaced it with a new empty one. Ra's al Ghul and Talia had Jason in their care.

[Sharcque]

ok, **mumble/grumble** I still don't like it, but I'll accept it. :mad:

[The Shadow]

Judd Winick, I hate you. That is all I have to say.
... BWAHAHAhaHAHAhHAhAhHAhAH

Welcome to my world! :D

[AlistairCrane]

ok, **mumble/grumble** I still don't like it, but I'll accept it. :mad:

I personally would have preferred it if his death was faked somehow. I don't like the whole magical resurrection aspect.

[The Shadow]

I couldn't resis reading the spoiler...

Worst.
Reveal.
Ever.

[Violently Apathetic]

Shadow, qualify that or risk being proved wrong in two words:

Goblin. Babies.
I personally would have preferred it if his death was faked somehow. I don't like the whole magical resurrection aspect.
I don't know, faking his death would mean that he outsmarted Batman, 'magical intervention' takes a lot of the pressure off Bruce. I doubt he was expecting someone to come flying out of the time stream and bring the boy back to life.

[Maleficentogre]

okay, help me out. Jason's been alive. His ghost has been around. His body is not there. He's not dead.
I got it. I got it. It's really simple actually. Whenever the time continuum is messed up it ripples out for a while to feel for the disruption. There are times when Jason is alive and well and that's when he's training with whoever to get better and become the red hood. There are other times whenever the ripples hit that he's very much dead, but since he's alive he's made into a ghost during these rippled periods. The ripples have calmed down by the time batman finds him and so he's fully alive now. That's it.

[The Shadow]

Shadow, qualify that or risk being proved wrong in two words:

Goblin. Babies.
LMAO :D :D

I think this was worse! ;)

[Sharcque]

mmmmmmmmgoblinbabiesmmmmmmmmmm.....

[Murrocko]

Wow, saved me five dollars.

[Violently Apathetic]

I think this was worse! ;)

Blasphemy! Nothing trumps the Goblin Babies in sheer 'WTF'ness! That’s their superpower. *waggles fingers* Fear the Goblin Babies, they eat continuity like it was popcorn.

[Nick Kal]

Quite frankly you guys are all acting like idiots. You didn't read this issue and you don't know what you're talking about.

First of all, that spoiler is incorrect. Super Boy Prime did not cause Todd's resurgence during the Flash battle in IC #4... It happened when he was with Alexander, Superman and Lois in their little gem world before IC began... way before Hush even happened.

Secondly, the issue explains everything. The coffin, who financed him, how he was saved, etc.

You guys really need to know that you really can't have a valid opinion before you actually know what you're talking about so your jumping to conclusions just makes you all looks so dumb.

Thanks.

P.S. Judd Winnick did a hell of a job on this annual and it was well worth my money.

[Phoney Bone]

I don't understand how is it not possible for the this to happen?

Wally West has been trapped in the Speed Force before and has zip-zapped through time. Unless I imagined Mark Waid's story where Wally was trapped in the Speed Force and went back in time and caused the accident that lead to him gaining his powers in the first place. According to Speed Force time dynamics, why wouldn't Superboy Prime be able to go back in time via Speed Force and save Jason Todd?

The arguments that this couldn't have happened before "Hush" don't hold any water.


Although I'm not a fan of Winnick, the spoilers have made up my mind to actually buy the comic now. Very nice nugget of continuity to throw in! And so what if it seems hokey? To paraphrase Mark Waid: I could walk into a comic book shop, throw a stick over my shoulder at the Batman back issues, and the chances of hitting a comic book with a worse plot are pretty high.

[Nick Kal]

Read my post above. That's not what happens. The first poster was mistaken.

[Murrocko]

So what happened?

[Phoney Bone]

First of all, that spoiler is incorrect. Super Boy Prime did not cause Todd's resurgence during the Flash battle in IC #4... It happened when he was with Alexander, Superman and Lois in their little gem world before IC began... way before Hush even happened.


Thanks for clearing that up.

But, it is still possible for the "Speed Force" scenario to happen... as any regular reader of The Flash should've known.

And I'm still gonna buy it!

Quite frankly you guys are all acting like idiots. You didn't read this issue and you don't know what you're talking about.

Although I completly agree with the gist of what your saying (my grandmother used to say that commenting on a something you haven't seen with your own eyes or heard with your own ears makes you look like a jackass), you could have phrased the opening in a nicer way. because... really... since when does someone have to actually read a comic before complaining about it on the 'Net? :D

[Nick Kal]

Thanks for clearing that up.

But, it is still possible for the "Speed Force" scenario to happen... as any regular reader of The Flash should've known.

And I'm still gonna buy it!



Although I completly agree with the gist of what your saying (my grandmother used to say that commenting on a something you haven't seen with your own eyes or heard with your own ears makes you look like a jackass), you could have phrased the opening in a nicer way. because... really... since when does someone have to actually read a comic before complaining about it on the 'Net? :D

I agree. I could have phrased it nicer but it's irritating when the same 2 - 3 posters complain about Winnick's work, keep picking it up just to complain,
and then start to complain before they even read it already making conclusions that are untrue.

[Nick Kal]

So what happened?

Well, why should you care? You've saved 5 dollars, right?

[Phoney Bone]

Well, why should you care? You've saved 5 dollars, right?


Urge... to post one of those "OWNED!" images... overwhelming... must... resist....

[Murrocko]

I also save money by not buying a bunch of other comics doesn't mean I'm not interested especially when I was fed false information.

[stillanerd]

Quite frankly you guys are all acting like idiots. You didn't read this issue and you don't know what you're talking about.

First of all, that spoiler is incorrect. Super Boy Prime did not cause Todd's resurgence during the Flash battle in IC #4... It happened when he was with Alexander, Superman and Lois in their little gem world before IC began... way before Hush even happened.

Secondly, the issue explains everything. The coffin, who financed him, how he was saved, etc.

You guys really need to know that you really can't have a valid opinion before you actually know what you're talking about so your jumping to conclusions just makes you all looks so dumb.

Thanks.

P.S. Judd Winnick did a hell of a job on this annual and it was well worth my money.

Okay, thanks for the correction and I apologize for getting the specifics wrong. I recieved this information from another source. Here it is: http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21619&page=1&pp=16

Naturally, I assumed that it had to do with what transpired in Infinite Crisis #4 when Superboy Prime got pulled into the Speed Force since the source sort of lumped everything together. However, it WAS still Superboy Prime that unintentionally brought Jason Todd back and his "temper tantrum" DID apparently mess with the space-time continum (when he was pounding away on the prism perhaps?) so at least I got SOMETHING right. Once again, I apologize for jumping to conclusions and next time I'll look before I leap (but I still think it's lame that it was Superboy Prime that brought Jason Todd back.)

[Nick Kal]

Haha. Because I'm nice...

Superboy Prime shattered several pieces of history by hitting the diamond that surrounded the four... he was alone, though. This sent a shockwave in which Jason Todd came back to life because he was supposed to have lived in another reality or on another earth. Jason dug himself out of the grave... it wasn't easy and one of the panels grossed me out...

Then Jason ends up in a hospital after he's discovered by a couple, they try to found out who he is but he has no fingerprints since he was Robin... we find out he's pretty much brain dead cause of the beating and explosion... however, his instinct has retained some of his abilities and will to live...

Someone recognizes him and Talia and Ra's Al Ghul take him into their care.. Talia wants to help him and Ra's isn't very keen on the idea.. and when Ra's goes to his private Lazarus Pit, which is in his mansion, Talia throws Jason in and it allows him to remember what happened and heal...

Then Talia says, "there was no revenge", im paraphrasing, and she sends Jason off with files on what happened, his death certificate,e tc... he gets pissed at Bruce and he ends up striking a deal with someone, I'm not sure who.,.. over his computer and they mention Hush being a new guy who's good at what he does... Jason helps Hush out and in turn Jason meets Batman/ switches places with Clayface... and later eventually decides to become The Red Hood.

[literally exaggerated]

I knew friggin Lazarus Pits would be involved somehow

[Jack Roberts]

Haha. Because I'm nice...

Superboy Prime shattered several pieces of history by hitting the diamond that surrounded the four... he was alone, though. This sent a shockwave in which Jason Todd came back to life because he was supposed to have lived in another reality or on another earth. Jason dug himself out of the grave... it wasn't easy and one of the panels grossed me out...

Then Jason ends up in a hospital after he's discovered by a couple, they try to found out who he is but he has no fingerprints since he was Robin... we find out he's pretty much brain dead cause of the beating and explosion... however, his instinct has retained some of his abilities and will to live...

Someone recognizes him and Talia and Ra's Al Ghul take him into their care.. Talia wants to help him and Ra's isn't very keen on the idea.. and when Ra's goes to his private Lazarus Pit, which is in his mansion, Talia throws Jason in and it allows him to remember what happened and heal...

Then Talia says, "there was no revenge", im paraphrasing, and she sends Jason off with files on what happened, his death certificate,e tc... he gets pissed at Bruce and he ends up striking a deal with someone, I'm not sure who.,.. over his computer and they mention Hush being a new guy who's good at what he does... Jason helps Hush out and in turn Jason meets Batman/ switches places with Clayface... and later eventually decides to become The Red Hood.

From your synopsis and my reading of the "Under the Hood" arc, I would be quite happier with Jason dead and the aforementioned comics not existing.

[Nick Kal]

From your synopsis and my reading of the "Under the Hood" arc, I would be quite happier with Jason dead and the aforementioned comics not existing.

Thanks. It exists though, so?

[Ian J.N.]

Superboy Prime shattered several pieces of history by hitting the diamond that surrounded the four... he was alone, though. This sent a shockwave in which Jason Todd came back to life because he was supposed to have lived in another reality or on another earth.
Seems like this is alluding to A Death in the Family's other ending. Kinda clever. It's like Superboy jostled the readers' vote.

[The Shadow]

it's irritating when the same 2 - 3 posters complain about Winnick's work, keep picking it up just to complain
Surely you aren't talking about moi! :D

I suffered through Winick's run because I have 22 years and counting (and working my way back now) on Batman... that's worth more to me as a complete run than not getting the craptacular stories of the past year.

And if no one complained it would be pretty boring with everyone agreeing ;)

[Nick Kal]

Seems like this is alluding to A Death in the Family's other ending. Kinda clever. It's like Superboy jostled the readers' vote.

That's something I hadn't thought about. This is absolutely true.

[The Shadow]

Haha. Because I'm nice...

Superboy Prime shattered several pieces of history by hitting the diamond that surrounded the four... he was alone, though. This sent a shockwave in which Jason Todd came back to life because he was supposed to have lived in another reality or on another earth. Jason dug himself out of the grave... it wasn't easy and one of the panels grossed me out...

Then Jason ends up in a hospital after he's discovered by a couple, they try to found out who he is but he has no fingerprints since he was Robin... we find out he's pretty much brain dead cause of the beating and explosion... however, his instinct has retained some of his abilities and will to live...

Someone recognizes him and Talia and Ra's Al Ghul take him into their care.. Talia wants to help him and Ra's isn't very keen on the idea.. and when Ra's goes to his private Lazarus Pit, which is in his mansion, Talia throws Jason in and it allows him to remember what happened and heal...

Then Talia says, "there was no revenge", im paraphrasing, and she sends Jason off with files on what happened, his death certificate,e tc... he gets pissed at Bruce and he ends up striking a deal with someone, I'm not sure who.,.. over his computer and they mention Hush being a new guy who's good at what he does... Jason helps Hush out and in turn Jason meets Batman/ switches places with Clayface... and later eventually decides to become The Red Hood.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Worst.
Reveal.
Ever.

Winick got PAID for this??
:rolleyes:

[Jack Roberts]

Thanks. It exists though, so?

The oft-cited rationale for bringing a character back from the dead is the strength of the story. In my opinion, the story was not worth the ressurection.

[Nick Kal]

Surely you aren't talking about moi! :D

I suffered through Winick's run because I have 22 years and counting (and working my way back now) on Batman... that's worth more to me as a complete run than not getting the craptacular stories of the past year.

And if no one complained it would be pretty boring with everyone agreeing ;)

But you know what, you don't even critique the comic. You just bash it, or more likely Winnick, a human being, who writes comics.

Also, I agree you have the right to complain, but disagreeing and shitting on something you haven't read is not cool... you can only do that with Marvel titles. :p

[stillanerd]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Worst.
Reveal.
Ever.

Winick go PAID for this??

How do you think I feel? I ended up gettng half the details wrong by jumping to conclusions and what really happened STILL involved Superboy Prime having a hissy fit (just in the wrong place at the wrong time) :o

Oh well, at least a Lazarus Pit WAS used.

But you know what, you don't even critique the comic. You just bash it, or more likely Winnick, a human being, who writes comics.

Also, I agree you have the right to complain, but disagreeing and shitting on something you haven't read is not cool... you can only do that with Marvel titles. :p

Better not tell that to Peter David. He didn't react so well when someone posted a synopsis of Part 10 of "The Other: Evolve or Die" in Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #4. :)

[Buried Alien]

I think it's OK. Not what I was expecting, but makes a certain amount of sense (in comic book story terms, anyway).

There's still something funky going on with the timeline, however. Jason's death is undone, but not the memory of it. That's never happened before in the history of COIE-related timeline shakeups.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Nick Kal]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Worst.
Reveal.
Ever.

Winick got PAID for this??
:rolleyes:

WORST MOST REPETITIVE POST EVER. :cool:

[jetter_cheeze]

The oft-cited rationale for bringing a character back from the dead is the strength of the story. In my opinion, the story was not worth the ressurection.


Tying the story into Infinite Crisis is not worth the resurrection nearly as much as making the story exist only in the bat titles. Having the doorway between life and death open (as explained in teen titans) was a much better idea for bringing todd back. In a story like that, he simply had to walk through the door at any time since superman's death and start training.

However, this explanation and how it stands is still logical and do-able. Not in my opinion the best it could be done, but still well thought out with tying the bat-mythos into it.

[The Shadow]

But you know what, you don't even critique the comic.
I usually get my comics a few days later than most of the people that post reviews and by the time I get around to reading it it's usually nearly a week old... so most of what I would say has been covered... so I quote some people and add any thoughts I missed.

You just bash it
Not at all... look at what I said about the last 2 issues of Detective Comics... of Captain America, or Daredevil or JSA and so on.

or more likely Winnick, a human being, who writes comics.
He's a professional that puts his work out into the public. As the old cliche goes if he can't handle the heat he should get outa the kitchen... and I liked Barry Ween and Pedro & Me... just not his mainstream DC work and I say DC because I liked his Exiles a lot.

I agree you have the right to complain, but disagreeing and shitting on something you haven't read is not cool... you can only do that with Marvel titles. :p
How can you bash Captain America, Daredevil, Young Avengers, Exiles, Runaways, She-Hulk, Thing or Astonishing X-Men?? :confused:

:D

[Nick Kal]

I usually get my comics a few days later than most of the people that post reviews and by the time I get around to reading it it's usually nearly a week old... so most of what I would say has been covered... so I quote some people and add any thoughts I missed.

Which trasnlates to, Bold Letter spaced out by line, detesting Winnick. :rolleyes:


Not at all... look at what I said about the last 2 issues of Detective Comics... of Captain America, or Daredevil or JSA and so on.

I'm talking about Batman...


He's a professional that puts his work out into the public. As the old cliche goes if he can't handle the heat he should get outa the kitchen... and I liked Barry Ween and Pedro & Me... just not his mainstream DC work and I say DC because I liked his Exiles a lot.

That's bs. You need to realize that his writing a comic doesn't give you the right to talk about him. The work doesn't belong to him once it's out there. It becomes ours. You need help if you seriously hate a guy who writes comics...


How can you bash Captain America, Daredevil, Young Avengers, Exiles, Runaways, She-Hulk, Thing or Astonishing X-Men?? :confused:

:D

The same way you can bash Green Lantern, Teen Titans, Batman, Infinite Crisis, The Flash, JSA, Wonder Woman or Superman.

[Jack Roberts]

Tying the story into Infinite Crisis is not worth the resurrection nearly as much as making the story exist only in the bat titles. Having the doorway between life and death open (as explained in teen titans) was a much better idea for bringing todd back. In a story like that, he simply had to walk through the door at any time since superman's death and start training.

However, this explanation and how it stands is still logical and do-able. Not in my opinion the best it could be done, but still well thought out with tying the bat-mythos into it.

Ultimately, I think Jason's ressurection and how it was done hurts the Bat-mythos. The idea of bringing him back has always been an interesting one, but the actual execution of it fell well below my expectations of such a story. It may "make sense" but it wasn't worth it.

[The Shadow]

I'm talking about Batman...
Last I checked Batman is in Detective Comics.

That's bs. You need to realize that his writing a comic doesn't give you the right to talk about him.
DAMN straight it does. It gives ME the CONSUMER the right to praise or criticize any service or product I am not happy with.

And from that I have the right to complain or praise what I do or do NOT like. In this case... Winick.

Consumer Rights (http://www.consumer.gov.tt/brochures/consumerrights.htm)
- The RIGHT to be heard – to complain to a retailer if one is dissatisfied about a product or service... and CBR is my voice.

If you can't criticize is praising him be just as bad?

The work doesn't belong to him once it's out there. It becomes ours.
That's right... MINE to rip, burn, read, bag, board (or not), file (or not) and lastly TALK ABOUT! From the editors to the letterer to the writer and artist... it's all fair game.

You need help if you seriously hate a guy who writes comics...
Did you miss the ENTIRE part about liking his non-DC work?

The same way you can bash ... JSA, Wonder Woman...
If you are bashing either of these titles you should re-evaluate your choice of harping on me bashing a book that MANY people regard as sub-standard... when you yourself are bashing two critically acclaimed books. :rolleyes:

[Nick Kal]

Last I checked Batman is in Detective Comics.

The actual title, Batman, which Judd Winnick was writing...


DAMN straight it does. It gives ME the CONSUMER the right to praise or criticize any service or product I am not happy with.

And from that I have the right to complain or praise what I do or do NOT like. In this case... Winick.

You're not distinguishing between the man and the book. Judd Winnick is not a comic. Your opinion of him is irrelevant.

Did you miss the ENTIRE part about liking his non-DC work?

No. However, your constant bashing of him overshadows that statement.


If you are bashing either of these titles you should re-evaluate your choice of harping on me bashing a book that MANY people regard as sub-standard... when you yourself are bashing two critically acclaimed books. :rolleyes:

I'm not bashing them... those titles can be beashed though like all the titles you mentioned.... :rolleyes:

[Sharcque]

If I buy a comic and don't like it, I'm gonna say it, and if I can't stand the direction a writer is taking said comic, then I'm gonna say that too. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[Violently Apathetic]

Ultimately, I think Jason's ressurection and how it was done hurts the Bat-mythos. The idea of bringing him back has always been an interesting one, but the actual execution of it fell well below my expectations of such a story. It may "make sense" but it wasn't worth it.

How does it hurt the mythos? Jason didn't fake his death, there was no body switch. This does not undo The Joker's crimes in 'A Death in the Family,' nor does it make Batman any less responsible. Batman still failed to save his son from a painful death and still failed to bring his killer to Justice. The boy Batman loved is dead and has been replaced by something much more effective than that useless costume in a case (which considering Batman failed to take any lesson from it, was nothing but a useless icon) when it comes to reminding him of that failure.

People are given a viable, sensible (given the current goings on) and workable solution and they STILL crap all over it, MOST without even reading it. I guess everyone would have been happier with aliens, voodoo priests or Parallax rearranging particles...

[Lubichev]

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=66077
I've been calling it since day one. Uggh!!

So have a lot of others, apparently.

[Violently Apathetic]

Sometimes certain fanboys here make me want to spork out my eyes and ears in frustration almost as much as Dr. Light's dialogue in Green Arrow, and that's saying something.

'It stinks, it stinks, it stinks!'
'Have you read it?'
'No, but I'm sure it stinks'
'Ah, thanks for the input, I'll be over here, hitting myself in the head with this brick'

[Maleficentogre]

i skipped a few pages but did anyone say the book stunk itself? or are they just like me and saying that the spoiler we were revealed with was a silly idea.

[Lubichev]

The only thing Winnick has been able to do successfully during his run on Batman has been to ruin my favorite character.

[Violently Apathetic]

My reply appears to be gone, did I do wrong again? If so I'd like to know (so I know not to do whatever it was I did again), otherwise I'll just assume I hallucinated and didn't actually post anything...so many unaccounted for gaps in my memory *twitches*

Anyway, all I said was that it seemed a lot of people were suggesting that book wasn't worth the paper it was printed on, regardless of how the 'silly idea' was executed and the strength or weaknesses of the rest of the story, which rather frustrates me.

Then I mentioned to Lubichev that I feel that comic characters can rarely be ruined by a writer, considering all that is needed to remedy it is for a new writer to come along and get some characterization back on track...

[Lubichev]

Your "drama queen" comment I could have done without.
Anyway, I think that Winnick has ruined Batman during his tenure. HOWEVER, I don't think that he has ruined the character forever. I don't think anybody can do that.

Sorry if I gave that impression.

Cool?
Cool.

[Violently Apathetic]

The Drama Queen thing was supposed to be good natured, I thought the smile would indicate that, since that was Gut's suggestion and I rarely use smilies (frankly I think they're evil incarnate, I don't trust their shifty little eyes) but yeah, I guess it was easy to misinterpret, sorry.

Yeah, I understand what you mean, we're cool. Frankly I want to see a new writer's take on the Red Hood (like Hell he's dead again...) although not for a while, he needs some time in limbo. Plus I want to see more classic baddies...

My Riddler love needs to be fed.

[Thaddy-Boy]

... I feel that comic characters can rarely be ruined by a writer, considering all that is needed to remedy it is for a new writer to come along and get some characterization back on track...

In this age of the short attention span, a writer can ruin a character. A readership will only stay with a character as long as the other one is written poorly or doesn't appeal. This is a tight marketplace.

I agree with Lubichev that Winnick (or any writer) can ruin a character, and spoil any potential new readers. Had this been an upstart character on a relatively new comic, it might have ruined it for any potential new readers. However, Batman is firmly established in the lore of the american psychey.

Take Image's Sam & Twitch characters. When Bendis left and MacFarlaine took over, that ruined those characters for me. Andreyko is trying to bring them back, but dude, that's gonna be tough.

oh, and Lubichev isn't a Drama Queen, he's a Drama King!!!

[Violently Apathetic]

If we're talking about new readers, sure, coming into a poor arc penned by a poor writer CAN turn them away, but that's not ruining the character, IMHO, that's ruining someone's chance to enjoy what is generally a good series. Ruining a character suggests long term or irreparable damage to me, not a temporary dip in quality. The character isn't ruined by a bad arc, the reader's experience is. If it can be fixed by the next writer I just don’t consider it ruined, but I can see where others may disagree. I don't deny it's possible to ruin a character (that's why I said rarely, rather than NEVER) but it's difficult and I don't believe it can occur with a long running character like Batman just because of a poor arc. Someone's patience may be shot and they could say its 'ruined for them' but they're still talking about their experience, not the character. Maybe I’m just abusing semantics though…

Oh, and I like to think Drama Queen can apply to both genders, IMHO, just like 'Bit*h' or primadonna.

[The Shadow]

The actual title, Batman, which Judd Winnick was writing...
I guess there was a misunderstanding... I thought you were saying ALL I do is bash comics... OVERALL...while you were talking JUST about Batman. Sorry. Hell yeah I bash a comic I don't like!

You're not distinguishing between the man and the book. Judd Winnick is not a comic. Your opinion of him is irrelevant.
Sure I am... Judd Winick the writer has ruined my favorite book (IMO anyway) and I dislike his DC writing.

My opinion of him as a WRITER is QUITE relevant to the discussion of his writing abilities and how he has handled my favorite chatacter.

I'm sure he's a helluva nice guy... fun at parties and I bet he's the type of guy that helps old ladies cross the street safely. I don't care about that though... I am talking about Winick the WRITER. NOTHING I have said is personal ("I hate the guy" or "I hope he dies for what he did") but I will not hesitate to comment on Winick the writer of Batman.

No. However, your constant bashing of him overshadows that statement.
Not at all... if you want to talk his Exiles lets go to the Marvel forum. If you want to talk Barry Ween lets go Indy... if you want to talk 9/10's of his DC work though (which also happens to be his most recent stuff) I don't have a lot of nice things to say.

[Lubichev]

Oh, and I like to think Drama Queen can apply to both genders.....
I think he may mean because I am an actor. And therefore the KING of drama.

[Violently Apathetic]

Ah, disregard then and please excuse my ignorance. King of Drama™ it is.

[Lubichev]

I dig the trademark addition. Maybe I should start getting royalties.

[The Shadow]

Ruining a character suggests long term or irreparable damage to me, not a temporary dip in quality. The character isn't ruined by a bad arc, the reader's experience is. If it can be fixed by the next writer I just don’t consider it ruined, but I can see where others may disagree.
I agree with that... Cable and Venom are characters that were ruined. They were literally remade and moved too quickly from what made them popular in an attempt to make them more commercial.

I don't deny it's possible to ruin a character (that's why I said rarely, rather than NEVER) but it's difficult and I don't believe it can occur with a long running character like Batman just because of a poor arc.
While I don't think it can occur because of an arc constantly bad stories (and if you look objectivly at Batman since Hush the stories are not as good as what preceeded it) that's 2+ YEARS of bad or mediocre stories... THAT can be harmful.

I’m just abusing semantics though…
I'm always up for some antics! :p

[literally exaggerated]

Batman survived the 50's and the CCA. A bs resurrection isn't gonna break him.

[Nick Kal]

Violently Apathetic, I feel you. We can just enjoy our Batman comics together!

[Violently Apathetic]

Awesome, sounds like a plan, Nick. Sometimes I feel like I must truly be a philistine for all the time I spend attempting to defend books that the majority of other people seem to think suck (or maybe they're a vocal minority, who knows?). I feel somewhat vindicated when others stick up for a book and apparently see there are some strengths along with the weaknesses.

...Or we could just have poor taste in comics, either way, at least we’re having fun with the books. :D

[Nick Kal]

Awesome, sounds like a plan, Nick. Sometimes I feel like I must truly be a philistine for all the time I spend attempting to defend books that the majority of other people seem to think suck (or maybe they're a vocal minority, who knows?). I feel somewhat vindicated when others stick up for a book and apparently see there are some strengths along with the weaknesses.

...Or we could just have poor taste in comics, either way, at least we’re having fun with the books. :D

Indeed. Generally, people who buy comics enjoy them. Then there are those who use internet message boards....

[Lubichev]

well that is a pretty shitty thing to say.

[Nick Kal]

The truth is shitty. :)

[The Shadow]

Then there are those who use internet message boards....
You're right... we should all engage in one giant love fest and not give any kind of negative response! Let's not have an opinion unless it's... a HAPPY ONE!

Let's ONLY discuss the PROS of a creative team, company or character and never again discuss the cons of a book!

Let me be the first to say I don't think Judd Winick has written ANYTHING bad.

Ever.






... and now I'm going to go vomit.

[Nick Kal]

You're right... we should all engage in one giant love fest and not give any kind of negative response! Let's not have an opinion unless it's... a HAPPY ONE!

Let's ONLY discuss the PROS of a creative team, company or character and never again discuss the cons of a book!

Let me be the first to say I don't think Judd Winick has written ANYTHING bad.

Ever.






... and now I'm going to go vomit.

Haha. Exactly my point.

[Lubichev]

Haha. Exactly my point.
What the hell are you talking about again?

[Nick Kal]

You act like you care. I really just want to discuss the annual, not debate with people who haven't read it how bad it is.

[Leon Thomas]

I don't know. I thought it was okay. I liked the part where Winnick allowed for various theories as to why Todd is a different person post-resurrection so that the character can be molded by future writers.

[matrix]

You act like you care. I really just want to discuss the annual, not debate with people who haven't read it how bad it is. so what about debating with people who didn't like it ;)

[Lubichev]

You act like you care. I really just want to discuss the annual, not debate with people who haven't read it how bad it is.
Oh, I do care, sir. Let's discuss it. Can I take the position that I thought it was bad and that I'm not a fan of Judd Winnicks work on Batman? Because that is what I'm doing.

[Nick Kal]

Okay, but did you two read it?

[Violently Apathetic]

Well, I have to admit, since I'm fairly new to the fandom (I've only been reading Batman since October) the venom I see some people spew occasionally catches me off guard. I've been a member of various fandoms over the years and it seems to me sometimes that many comic fans seem to be the only ones who do not enjoy their own fandom half the time. A lot seem too busy critiquing and bemoaning the current state affairs that I have to wonder if they're even having fun anymore.

However, let's not confuse the issue, there is a difference between someone who legitimately doesn't like something because it fails to meet their expectations and someone who is completely reactionary and seems to hate something just because they can, or they have a bias against a writer or hate when things don't go as they want them to. Most people in this thread fall into the former category rather than the latter and while I don't agree with them I understand and respect their opinions. The fact of the matter is we all judge stories based on our own personal criteria and I don't think it's right to be dismissive of others just because we don't agree with them (I'm being a bit of a hypocrite here, I know *facepalm*)

I like the Red Hood, I've enjoyed Winick's work that I've read and I look forward to more from him in the future. I want to read the Annual (but I'm stranded in an area with no comic shop for a while yet, ARRRGH) and think Winick's explanation as to how Jason returned, while not the route I would have gone, makes sense.

Edit: I'm too lazy to go upstairs and check my issues, but this is going to bug me if I don't ask, is it 'Winick' or 'Winnick'? I also thought it was the former, but I keep seeing people spell it the other way.

[matrix]

Okay, but did you two read it?
i'll read it today but i must warn you i didn't like the last two issues. :D

[Lubichev]

Annual #25. Came out today? Cost 4.99? A rather mediocre story, IN MY OPINION?
Yeah, I read it. Didn't like it.
I liked his Barry Ween stuff. I did. But really, that is about all. Maybe I am setting my standards too high BECAUSE it is Batman, but I think the majority of Winnick's run (including the current issue) has been pretty lame.

[Violently Apathetic]

What didn't you like about it, Lubichev, if you don't mind me asking?

[Nick Kal]

What didn't you like about it, Lubichev, if you don't mind me asking?

Yes, I generally like to know why people don't like it too.

Also, it's Winnick.

[Lubichev]

Well, I have been put off ever since Jason Todd was brought back. So there is a strike against it before I even read it. After reading the explination on how and why JT returned, it seemed like one of those contrived lame ass soap opera reveals that makes you go, "What? Is that all? That's it?" Maybe I set myself up for a fall expecting some great, plausable, logical explination but when I got this explination instead, I felt let down.

See, I did this with HUSH too. Eye candy, yes. Brain candy? Not so much.

different strokes.........

[jerrymcl89]

I thought it was pretty well-done, all things considered. I could feel for what Jason had been through, which makes him a bit more sympathetic. And the explanation of his return was one that does not make Batman look like an idiot and also doesn't undo the original story, both of which help.

As far as an explanation goes, I never expected something that would blow me away, so I'll settle for something that at least makes comic book sense.

[The Shadow]

Also, it's Winnick.
LOL

No it's not!

Look in the top right hand corner.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/07206180254.650.GIF

[Violently Apathetic]

Well, I have been put off ever since Jason Todd was brought back. So there is a strike against it before I even read it. After reading the explination on how and why JT returned, it seemed like one of those contrived lame ass soap opera reveals that makes you go, "What? Is that all? That's it?" Maybe I set myself up for a fall expecting some great, plausable, logical explination but when I got this explination instead, I felt let down.

See, I did this with HUSH too. Eye candy, yes. Brain candy? Not so much.

different strokes.........
Ah. Well, I haven't read the issue yet myself (My cry is a sad cry) so I certainly can't agree or disagree with you in any logical way, but I'll try anyway because I'm like that. From what I heard the explanation is painfully easy, Superboy Prime did it...! but I think that may be a good thing, I mean I personally have never read a resurrection that seems plausible because, well, bringing people back from the dead is hardly grim and gritty realism at its finest. I just think that in this case taking advantage of IC and what it’s doing to the time line was the safest bet.

I do think people's expectations going into this are going to affect how everyone views it though. My opinion is far from unbiased, since I'm an unapologetic Jason Todd fan, I probably would be defending it if Jason was resurrected by pixies who wanted him to rule over Fairy Land...actually, I'd read that in a heartbeat… Anyway, there was no way this version was going to satisfy most people.

Was the art any good? The art in the last issue made me sad (aside from the pretty way Jason’s 'eye' was drawn)

[Lubichev]

Was the art any good, the art in the last issue made me sad (aside from the pretty way Jason’s 'eye' was drawn)
Meh. Alright, I guess. Certainly better than issue 650.

[Paul Kersey]

Does this mean that since the new Jason Todd/Red Hood is a result of Infinite Crisis does this mean that he will be erased when IC is over?

I hope so.

[Big Scary]

I think in the end most people on the boards said that the Lazarus Pit would be involved, which it was to some degree. The way he actually came back from the dead was neither awful nor amazing. It just happened with no real spark to it. Besides the fact that it didnt explain anythign else about how the character got to the point that he was at (age, ability etc.).

What worries me most is what this means for any other book that changes its history due to IC events. Especially since we see how off the continuity in this Annual story is already looking.

Didnt hate it to the degree i thought i would but wasnt wowed by the explanation of why they felt they "needed" to bring back Jason.

[Guts/Batman]

What an issue! I mean it. What an issue!

Had me sides aching with too much laughter. What hilarity. The timeline he got right, I can't believe it but there are too many "WTF?!?" moments in this book. If my SoD was healthier...

And it was straight forward enough that this could have been told in Batman monthlies (seeing how he used a couple issues to just blow stuff up) but hey I'm a sucker for Shane Davis art. :D

[Violently Apathetic]

Didnt hate it to the degree i thought i would but wasnt wowed by the explanation of why they felt they "needed" to bring back Jason.

It's not a need, I'd think, but a want. Few things in a book driven by the necessity to preserve the overall status quo develop out of need.

Guts, once more your acrimonious humour is like a breath of fresh air. :p

[jetter_cheeze]

Besides the fact that it didnt explain anythign else about how the character got to the point that he was at (age, ability etc.).



So you didn't see the two panels where it said he would follow bruce's training?

Jason still seems young, heck i would put him at 18 which makes perfect sense for Dick's age and for tim's age.

He obviously had Talia financing him to get the weapons he had.

Some things you shouldn't need explained to you, do you want everything spoon-fed to you?

Remember that comics are words and pictures. The creative team is together in making this happen, part winick's words, part of the artist's pictures.

My only question about the comic now is if the begining of the book (the first couple of pages) takes place after what happened in 650 or not.

[pat44844]

thats why ra's said in hush something like "who do you know would want to come back from the dead" or something like that.

[Violently Apathetic]

Jason still seems young, heck i would put him at 18 which makes perfect sense for Dick's age and for tim's age.

That would fit into the part in 'War Drums' where Bruce was telling Batgirl that Jason would be celebrating his 18th birthday, had he lived.

He seems older.

[Guts/Batman]

He obviously had Talia financing him to get the weapons he had.

Some things you shouldn't need explained to you, do you want everything spoon-fed to you?

That's only a 50/50 shot of being the only help he had. Didn't he say way back in #641 that he had some stuff from Kord Industries...?

[jetter_cheeze]

That's only a 50/50 shot of being the only help he had. Didn't he say way back in #641 that he had some stuff from Kord Industries...?


I thought he stole some of Kord Industreis's materials...memory is a little hazy on that.

[Guts/Batman]

I thought he stole some of Kord Industreis's materials...memory is a little hazy on that.

I'll have to re-read it but I knew he had some Kord-tech. He could have stolen it but I would be very surprised if that's all the help he had.

Having Talia for help is big yes but there is just this shaky feeling that's not all the help he is receiving...

[jadegiant77]

This is so stupid. That " reality warp created when Superboy-prime tried to escape the paradise dimension" is going to be a catch-all for all the shoddy continuity in the Post-Crisis DCU. Supes has three origins? Plastic Man's retarded series? multiple versions of one character? Superman's cape miscolored pink on panel four of action 33? All Superboy-Prime's fault. :rolleyes:

I still don't buy that Bruce was fighting Jason during the Hush storyline and was switched for Clayface before the end of it. How asinine was that? I'm not buying this, I don't care if it sells out and goes to a second printing.

EDIT: jetter cheese, I am too my stupid icon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Maleficentogre]

plastic man's series is not retarted.

[The Shadow]

Nick Kal will be glad to know that I finally read the issue cover to cover and can now offer my thoughts on the story.

Worst.
Reveal.
Ever.

Winick got actually got PAID for this?? DC gave Winick money for this (DC also charrged us Canucks $6.75!!!!) and Winick STILL employed???
:rolleyes:

He needs to go back to writing Exiles where you can mess with stuff like continuity and NOT piss off legions of Bat-fans.

[Guts/Batman]

You mean we didn't need a $5 Annual to explain this? That this could have been handled in the monthlies? :eek:

[Maleficentogre]

I have finally read the issue. Wow, I can't believe I willingly paid money for this.

[stillanerd]

You mean we didn't need a $5 Annual to explain this? That this could have been handled in the monthlies? :eek:

Here's a better question: was it really worth waiting 2 YEARS before we finally learned how Jason "I'm supposed to be dead but I was brought back to life by Superboy Prime having a sexually frustrated, cabin-fever induced hissy fit" Todd
came back?

[Guts/Batman]

Here's a better question: was it really worth waiting 2 YEARS before we finally learned how Jason "I'm supposed to be dead but I was brought back to life by Superboy Prime having a sexually frustrated, cabin-fever induced hissy fit" Todd came back?

Good question...

I would say no. This is a complete letdown. Instead of just saying it, referencing in Batman #641 explaining how he did it. We had to have a $5 Annual to do it. Yes, the principal behind this is wrong...

We could have used #642 for this and not bothered with that God awful War Crimes arc for this.

[stillanerd]

Good question...

I would say no. This is a complete letdown. Instead of just saying it, referencing in Batman #641 explaining how he did it. We had to have a $5 Annual to do it. Yes, the principal behind this is wrong...

We could have used #642 for this and not bothered with that God awful War Crimes arc for this.

No kidding. Oh I know--let's get Superboy Prime to retcon it! Based on what we know now, he practically responsible for all the retcons in the DCU. :D

[xnef1025]

I know of a good reason(well maybe not "good") to have this story told in an annual instead of the monthly(besides $$). Should some other writer come along with a better resurrection plot, it will be easy for DC editorial to say, "OK, the reveal on how JT came back from the dead that was given in the 2006 Batman Annual is OOC. Writer X's new take is the real story." As long as this isn't directly referenced in any other book ever again, it's easily removable. Does IC #5 make a direct reference to this story at all?

[Guts/Batman]

No kidding. Oh I know--let's get Superboy Prime to retcon it! Based on what we know now, he practically responsible for all the retcons in the DCU. :D

Indeed.

I mean, DC doesn't have enough joke plot devices yet do they?

Let's go down the list, shall we?

Yellow Fear Monster
The new Supergirl
Clayface(s)
Deathstroke
Dr. Arthur Light
"Evil" Alexander Luthor

Now, "Pissed off AM/Superboy Prime hybrid" can be added to the list. God I hope, BigJay, Stretch and JCall aren't reading this last one...

[Guts/Batman]

Does IC #5 make a direct reference to this story at all?

Nope. Not even with all the talking they did in #5...

This story isn't even getting referenced in ANY IC book. It's just kind of thrown in on the Bat end.

[Maleficentogre]

It ends so flat, and it's so anticlimatic. and it feels purposeless, like it could've been covered since red hood first showed up. I like my annuals with a little more umph than this had. actually a lot more umph for my extra $2

[xnef1025]

It ends so flat, and it's so anticlimatic. and it feels purposeless, like it could've been covered since red hood first showed up. I like my annuals with a little more umph than this had. actually a lot more umph for my extra $2
See... total filler. I give it two years until another writer retcons this with the "official" resurrection of JT story.

I actually do like the explanation that Winick has given here though. It's crazy, convoluted, and highly improbable, but that kind of fits the whole Crisis idea.

[jerrymcl89]

I was surprised the annual didn't resolve the cliffhanger of Batman, Joker, and Jason from the last issue. I guess it will be addressed somewhere, but not by Winick, which is odd.

[Guts/Batman]

I was surprised the annual didn't resolve the cliffhanger of Batman, Joker, and Jason from the last issue. I guess it will be addressed somewhere, but not by Winick, which is odd.

Since Jason is the Nightwing in "Nightwing" I would assume that's where I am assuming it will be settled. But I won't be getting Nightwing OYL so I'll just have to find out from here.

[jerrymcl89]

I guess I don't really need to know, anyway. Batman is obviously not dead, nor the Joker, nor apparently Jason. So all I really need to know is there was a huge explosion exactly where they were standing, and everyone is fine now :)

[Guts/Batman]

What I'm thinking is that DC will rearrange the universe so that explosion never happened. It's the only clear way out of this. I suppose my SoD can handle Batman surviving but not Jason or the Joker.

There is no way in Hell Joker or Jason survived that explosion.

[Maleficentogre]

Maybe SBP's breakout has effected the time stream so that the explosion never happens.

[The Shadow]

See... total filler. I give it two years until another writer retcons this with the "official" resurrection of JT story.
I'm hoping for the Dallas ending... where Bruce wakes up and realizes it's all been one GIANT nightmare and that Jason is still dead.

[Guts/Batman]

I'm hoping for the Dallas ending... where Bruce wakes up and realizes it's all been one GIANT nightmare and that Jason is still dead.

I have been hoping everything Murderer-post will be retconned somehow for quite some time now...

[literally exaggerated]

I liked it well enough. This whole storyline has been mediocre, but the last two issues with Jason have been good. Too bad it took them years to get me remotely interested in him as a character. Not worth $5, not much happened, but as resurrection plots go, this was fairly good. Not that thats saying much, mind. Resurrections since Dark Pheonix on have been lamely handled.

[jetter_cheeze]

It ends so flat, and it's so anticlimatic. and it feels purposeless, like it could've been covered since red hood first showed up. I like my annuals with a little more umph than this had. actually a lot more umph for my extra $2

If it was covered when Todd first showed back up then a huge part of infinite crisis would have been ruined.

[jetter_cheeze]

EDIT: jetter cheese, I am too my stupid icon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Prove it! :D

[jetter_cheeze]

Nick Kal will be glad to know that I finally read the issue cover to cover and can now offer my thoughts on the story.

Worst.
Reveal.
Ever.

Winick got actually got PAID for this?? DC gave Winick money for this (DC also charrged us Canucks $6.75!!!!) and Winick STILL employed???
:rolleyes:

He needs to go back to writing Exiles where you can mess with stuff like continuity and NOT piss off legions of Bat-fans.

Legions of bat-fans or the very vocal minority?

[Choppa]

Im guessing that my explanation sounds a lot better now huh?

For those who don't it, basically I proposed that after Jason's death, the JLA tried to resurrect Jason because they didn't want his death to continue to cause Batman pain, but they failed at doing it and caused something worse to happen so they mindwiped Bruce from knowing that they tried to do anything and in "Behind the Red Hood" we were seeing Bruce unravel what actually happened through his eyes. It ties in well to the issue where Bruce confronts Zatanna and GA about coming back from the dead and there is all that tension between them.

[Maleficentogre]

I don't know. How many ways can you bring someone back from the dead and it not be hokey. I think literally exagerated was right about there not being a really good resurection since Phoenix. On the other hand I'll take SBP's nutty self being a nut job way over a yellow fear monster.

[Nick Kal]

Legions of bat-fans or the very vocal minority?

You are smart. :)

Also, oh dear I pressed the "N" key for too long and put Winnick instead of Winick.

LOL :rolleyes:

[Nate Grey]

This comic was sold out at EVERY COMIC STORE I WENT TO! Luckily the one I normally frequent will be getting more in on Monday.

[stillanerd]

Here some scans. All I can say is who needs a defibulator when you got...SUPERBOY PRIME!

http://i47.imagethrust.com/i/296516/batann25sbprime.jpg
http://i48.imagethrust.com/i/296512/batann25jasondigs.jpg

and a Lazarus Pit to boot:

http://i48.imagethrust.com/i/296514/batann25lazpit.jpg

[Sharcque]

Ok, who are all the people in the relections of the breaking glass/mirror? I know the Robot guy from Doom Patrol, and Donna Troy, but who are the others?

[stillanerd]

Ok, who are all the people in the relections of the breaking glass/mirror? I know the Robot guy from Doom Patrol, and Donna Troy, but who are the others?

Hawkman (his origins was something else that got screwed up after Crisis on Infinite Earths.)

[Sharcque]

Hawkman (his origins was something else that got screwed up after Crisis on Infinite Earths.)
oh, ok, I get it. so in that one panel those are all different pics of Donna Troy, and the next are all different pics of Hawkman. ok...thanks.

[Apathy Boy]

Good god almighty. This thread needs to get retconned.

Look people, we get it. Some of you think Judd Winick is the anti-christ; some of you do not. Can you turf the histrionics and do something other than yell at each other like you have for the last 11 pages? (4 of those based completely on erroneous information.) You've said your piece, now move on unless you have something productive to add to the conversation.

Anyway, about the issue: I'm torn. On the one hand, I thought it was a rather cracking read with some nice moments of drama. I like how it sets up Jason as Bruce's mirror image with the "losing his father" bit. I like how it establishes Jason's raison d'etre through his anger at his killer being alive and Bruce's complicity in it. And I LOVE the triangle between Talia, Bruce and Jason.

But a book such as this is judged on the explanation for Jason's return. And I thought it took an easy way out (though the scene was beautifully well-written). It almost felt like Winick was trying to capitulate to the raving hordes of fandom. "Oh look, everything in A Death in the Family really happened! But he magically got better after."

I think Winick would've been better off retconning Jason's death entirely. I mean, it's not like he was going to piss off the fans any more.

oh, ok, I get it. so in that one panel those are all different pics of Donna Troy, and the next are all different pics of Hawkman. ok...thanks.Yep, and the first is the multiple versions of the Doom Patrol that have existed. Basically, the three characters/teams who have had the most continuity problems in the DCU.

[Guts/Batman]

The writing wasn't horrible but nor did I feel for Jason in this issue. When you focus on him blowing stuff up the way did, I can't feel for him when he has the Punisher thing going.

He got the timeline to fit where it makes sense. But Superboy Prime punching "windows" because he was mad and cooped up and all that is hilarious. The mere idea of that is mind numbingly funny.

We're already having a field day with this over in Rumbles.

"Superboy Prime vs. continuity." "There is no continuity, there is only Superboy Prime punching things." You gotta have some fun with the comics.

What I find the most disturbing is that DC felt like they needed an $5 Annual for this story. It just feels...like...such a...money grab and that's it.

[Apathy Boy]

The writing wasn't horrible but nor did I feel for Jason in this issue. When you focus on him blowing stuff up the way did, I can't feel for him when he has the Punisher thing going.I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to feel for Jason. Understand his motivations? Sure. Agree with them? I don't think so. I thought the story made it fairly clear that we're supposed to see him as a villain, albeit one who thinks he's right.

He got the timeline to fit where it makes sense. But Superboy Prime punching "windows" because he was mad and cooped up and all that is hilarious. The mere idea of that is mind numbingly funny.It wasn't just because he was mad, though. Dunno if this is necessary, but...

INFINITE CRISIS He was punching the walls because Alexander Luthor told him to, as part of their plan to break out of "paradise." Remember that bit where Alex says Kal-L was too distracted by Lois to hear what they were doing?

[thehod]

What I find the most disturbing is that DC felt like they needed an $5 Annual for this story. It just feels...like...such a...money grab and that's it.

Please, where have you been for the last decade.

The comic industry grabbing cash by an over priced product? Fancy that.

[thehod]

INFINITE CRISIS He was punching the walls because Alexander Luthor told him to, as part of their plan to break out of "paradise." Remember that bit where Alex says Kal-L was too distracted by Lois to hear what they were doing?

There is also the possibility that (and although this is just my opinion, I'll keep the spoiler thing going for those not in the know)

I still think that the Anti-Monitor has something to do with this, and is causing Alex Luthors "turn to the dark side" and is influencing Superboy somewhat

[jwd]

I know I'm in the minority here but I enjoyed the issue. We found out the how and what he's been up too.

To me Superboy Prime fracturing reality is just as good or bad as a Lazarus Pit dip or any of the other explainations people have come up with

It's too bad Batman will probably never know the reasons why he's returned.

If I were planning to follow Jason Todd's story I'd be more interested in what's coming up anyway.

[tymac]

I thought the issue was Ok, but probably not worth $5.00. I do have one question, why didn't Jason keep that "Hush" Robin costume, and just add the red hood mask and leather jacket over it? I really like that design.

Oh, and I would have preferred that Superboy make the earth's rotation reverse to bring back Jason.

[bloodyarts]

Are you telling me that Superboy Prime is so strong that the power of his punches resonates through time and multiple realities?

Or does this have more to do with the paradise that he, Lois, Superman and Alex were in?

Also, Mr. Terrific says he's the third smartest person on the planet. Who're the first two?

[Nate Grey]

Also, Mr. Terrific says he's the third smartest person on the planet. Who're the first two?

Bibbo's one. Not sure about the other.

[adeathinthefamily]

I thought the issue was Ok, but probably not worth $5.00. I do have one question, why didn't Jason keep that "Hush" Robin costume, and just add the red hood mask and leather jacket over it? I really like that design.

Because, basically... how do I put this? ...

Because Judd Winnick didn't have a clue how he was really going to explain Jason Todd's return until he HAD to. That much is obvious to me.

Why? The white hair streak, dude. Jason looked completely different in Hush to how he does in the Red Hood story. He looked older. If Judd was going to use the excuse that Jason WAS in the Hush storyline, why take the white streak away for the Red Hood story? It was clearly a last-minute botch job.

Also, notice the fact 'Jason' calls Bruce "Batman" (you may recall this was how Bruce figured out that it wasn't Jason he was fighting) BEFORE the point that Todd and Clayface are supposed to have switched places.

Lame.

Lame, lame, lame. And yet I'm stoked to see what Jason does next.............

[PercussionMasta]

Some thoughts:

When I read the issue, I didn't think that Superboy was at all trapped in the Speed Force when his actions brought Todd back. I seem to remember reading somewhere else that Superboy Prime helped/destroyed the barrier between realities. I don't think he intended to bring Todd back, but it was a consequence of him punching through reality. The question, then, is when did Superboy Prime/Superman 2 start punching through the walls? I got the impression that Todd was revived pretty quickly after being placed in the ground, which would have been years ago.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but did anyone catch this? The panels where Batman is holding Todd and he's alive are the original art that would have been used in Death in the Family if the votes had gone in Todd's favor. I think this is correct, as I've seen these panels before.

I thought the explanation was decent, but I'm more fearful at the repercussions. Anytime DC wants to retcon something or explain something away, they can simply attribute it to this ripple effect from Superboy Prime. Seems kind of a lazy way to make things work. DC now has a way out of any sticky situation they create.

Also, one of my biggest critiques is how they presented Todd. Todd in the recent Batman issues has been presented as a loner, the one guy who can take on anyone else. He doesn't need Black Mask or any other crime lord to run the city. He does it by himself because his balls are that big. However, in the annual, he is completely dependent on everyone around him. Superboy brings him back, Talia saves him and heals him, Hush gives him a plan to confront Bruce, Clayface gives him a way to escape, etc. Why does he need all these people when he's been portrayed as a loner bad ass?

I think the issue really made great sense and fit really well into IC overall. HOWEVER, I'm not sure yet about if this was a good idea or not. It seems a little too convienient.

[Violently Apathetic]

Also, one of my biggest critiques is how they presented Todd. Todd in the recent Batman issues has been presented as a loner, the one guy who can take on anyone else. He doesn't need Black Mask or any other crime lord to run the city. He does it by himself because his balls are that big. However, in the annual, he is completely dependent on everyone around him. Superboy brings him back, Talia saves him and heals him, Hush gives him a plan to confront Bruce, Clayface gives him a way to escape, etc. Why does he need all these people when he's been portrayed as a loner bad ass?


I don't disagree, but you have to consider that after he was brought back he was physically, emotionally and mentally weak, he needed external forces to move him. Even after he got all sorted out mentally he was still very young, 15 when he died, about 18 now. Someone that young, no matter how precocious, and especially if they have no previous ties to the criminal underworld, is going to find it difficult (if not impossible) to move within it without strong patrons. Now that he has established himself and is more comfortable he no longer needs them and thus has discarded them, feeling he is ready to take on the world all on his own. Not a bright move on his part, but in character.

[PercussionMasta]

I don't disagree, but you have to consider that after he was brought back he was physically, emotionally and mentally weak, he needed eternal forces to move him. Even after he got all sorted out mentally he was still very young, 15 when he died, about 18 now. Someone that young, no matter how precocious, and especially if they have no previous ties to the criminal underworld, is going to find it difficult (if not impossible) to move within it without strong patrons. Now that he has established himself and is more comfortable he no longer needs them and thus has discarded them, feeling he is ready to take on the world all on his own. Not a bright move on his part, but in character. Yeah, I can identify with that. Although, he was still relying on others after his dip in the Lazarus Pit. His interactions with Hush and Clayface occured much closer to where he started appearing in Batman, so that wouldn't seem consistent with his character. I suppose him not seeing regret in Bruce's eyes could have pushed him over the edge.

[Violently Apathetic]

Right, I'm thinking that was his moment of epiphany, if even his 'dad' didn't care enough to avenge him then why bother trusting or relying on other people at all? If you can't count on your family, who can you count on? Or something like that, who knows how his mind works...

[Chris Thomas]

as noted above, the time frame here is strange. I think this problem is inherent in the whole

dc time does not = real time. and, in fact, the dc time progression since coie is 9 years I believe? please correct me

so..supes prime states he and luthor just recently busted out on the sly to change things--that would be about the time of identity crisis (or just right after.)

real time= one year approx.

but dc time:

todd buried
then about 1-2 years.. supes prime changes reality.. todd back--then one year later---discovered by talia (right?)... then about 1-2 years more.. red hood.

it just doesn't jive in dc time--unless supes prime is lying (and I am sure he is) and he and luthor 4 busted out many years ago in dc time

someone help out here?

[Maleficentogre]

I realise the poblem I have with the annual, it's that it totally changes HUSH.

[Violently Apathetic]

I realise the poblem I have with the annual, it's that it totally changes HUSH.

Actually, Hush was changed back around 641(?), that's when Jason said that the battle in the graveyard started with him and ended with Clayface. So technically the Annual was just giving us more information on what we already knew.

[trickster]

Just goes to show you can't believe anything you read on these boards. I read the Annual and I liked it. Plus the "he's alive" was a really ironic jab at all the cold-hearted jerks who killed Todd back then. But then what would you expect from people who whine that they want their money back after so many years?

[Nate Grey]

Just goes to show you can't believe anything you read on these boards. I read the Annual and I liked it. Plus the "he's alive" was a really ironic jab at all the cold-hearted jerks who killed Todd back then. But then what would you expect from people who whine that they want their money back after so many years?

With intrest, though, that's $1,000! However: I suck at math, so that MAY not be accurate

[Lubichev]

Like Nate mentioned, just imagine the interest rate for calls made back in the Mid 80's. I'd want my money back too. That is a pretty penny.

[Maleficentogre]

I guess it did. oh well.

[agentofthebat]

allright now i want to know what happens after batman 650 you just cant end it like that

[Calamas]

It was okay. And I’m surprised I liked it that much. On the whole I feel that backstory should be kept to a minimum, and when used more liberally should enhance what is happening in the present. This was *all* backstory, nothing more than “connect the dots” or “fill in the blanks.” There was nothing happening, no real story to speak of.

It was okay. But hardly worth five bucks.

[mohammedali]

Aside from the actual reason that Todds came back, I though BA25 was a good read. I loved the use of the scene that could have been part 4 of aDitF, and the issue tied up all loose ends about Todds reappearence from how he came back, who trained him, to who financed him, and how the whole Hush thing worked. It litterally spoonfed readers the answers to most of the problems people had with his return. I think if the how was a little more believable though, it would have better. Perhaps they should have had it that SBP went back to his universe and told his friends to vote against Todd dying - causing a chainreaction bringing him back... now *that* I would buy ;)

Mohammed Ali

[Damo]

Just goes to show you can't believe anything you read on these boards. I read the Annual and I liked it. Plus the "he's alive" was a really ironic jab at all the cold-hearted jerks who killed Todd back then. But then what would you expect from people who whine that they want their money back after so many years?

But... see... I'm not cold hearted. I have a very warm heart. And that's why I voted to ditch the little twerp in the only way available at the time. He was an arrogant, mean-spirited, thieving and possibly murdering jerk, and frankly,my not being cold hearted is why I didn't want that to be the Robin for a new generation. If there was a "let him live, but fire his punk ass" option I would have voted for that.

And dammit, I do want my money back. I voted not to have "training an arrogant punk killer" be part of Batman's legacy, and DC ignored my vote.

[The Shadow]

The panels where Batman is holding Todd and he's alive are the original art that would have been used in Death in the Family if the votes had gone in Todd's favor.
That was my FAVORITE part of the whole story... and really made me miss Jim Aparo on Batman.

[The Shadow]

Plus the "he's alive" was a really ironic jab at all the cold-hearted jerks who killed Todd back then. But then what would you expect from people who whine that they want their money back after so many years?
Cold hearted?

Ive been described as warm and fuzzy! Cuddly even... but also one prone to rational decisions... and offing Todd was well worth the money.

There was no irony in using the HE'S ALIVE page... in fact as I said above I thought it was great DC used it. I'd only seen it in black and white and loved seeing it fully coloured.

[Violently Apathetic]

But... see... I'm not cold hearted. I have a very warm heart. And that's why I voted to ditch the little twerp in the only way available at the time. He was an arrogant, mean-spirited, thieving and possibly murdering jerk, and frankly,my not being cold hearted is why I didn't want that to be the Robin for a new generation. If there was a "let him live, but fire his punk ass" option I would have voted for that.


Er, he was in the middle of some major character changes in 'A Death in the Family', all signs pointed that had he lived he would have

a) Not been Robin anymore due to injury
or
b) Changed to be a much more positive individual.

Edit: Nevermind the rest, I'm bringing up issues that don't belong here.

[Guts/Batman]

I'm gonna say this and I am going to be blunt. I don't hate Winick. I don't think he is the Anti-Christ and I'm pretty sure it doesn't belong here but if I don't get it out, it's gonna come out some othet time.

Hell, I'd be more than welcome him to write Batman again as my loyalty is to the character in the book and not the writer of said book. That's how it has always been and that's how it will always be. That's the main reason why I stuck on (the art didn't hurt either).

Over reading his whole entire run and specifically his last "arc", some things I have noticed and these are not singling Judd out because I see this all over the place in DC's writing.

IC is definitely getting in the way of storytelling. There is no doubt about it anymore.

From specifically the last arc of Batman and this Annual. It was incomplete storytelling that just wandered around for 4-5 issues with no real purpose and doesn't really tie into anything that is going on anywhere else in DCU.

Not even in Catwoman, which is where Black Mask should have been handled. It would have been nice to see Catwoman and Batman a little better connected in this run. Communication between the Bat-office and other offices of ther seems to be...not so good.

It had it's bright moments but it's purely assinine moments beat out it's good moments. Shoot the C-4 and having it explode, sorry Judd, you do not get a pass. Do some research or have someone get on it.

Questions of why stuff happened and how they happened. I don't need it fed to me on a sppon but there is a fine line between spoon feeding and not giving enough information. Continuity and internal cohesiveness is like connecting dots and on a number of points in this arc, you get half way to the point you're trying to get to and you have to stop.

That's no way to tell a story. The storytelling here was my main issue with the arc. Winick didn't give me a reason to care about Jason early on in this arc, yea, he's a former Robin who has come back to be a cold blooded murderer (which is what he is)...

Okay. Agree or disagree with that assessment, I don't care. Just respect it. That's all I ask.

As for DCU as a whole, storytelling through out (with a few exceptions) has been sub par. Infinite Crisis has gotten in the way of storytelling. No doubt about it.

Sacrifice was an incomplete story with poor pacing. The first two issues didn't contribute at all to the story and the last two issues were too fast paced. The scene with Max, Superman and Wonder Woman was just horribly done and the principal reason why the story was in complete.

The Countdown minis themselves as I look back at them were just wastes of time. They just kind of meandered through a weak plot base that only served to make sure to put out an "Batman Annual #25-esque" money grab.

Storytelling on the whole has been sub par since Infinite Crisis #1. Ick...

[matrix]

I'm gonna say this and I am going to be blunt. I don't hate Winick. I don't think he is the Anti-Christ and I'm pretty sure it doesn't belong here but if I don't get it out, it's gonna come out some othet time.

Hell, I'd be more than welcome him to write Batman again as my loyalty is to the character in the book and not the writer of said book. That's how it has always been and that's how it will always be. That's the main reason why I stuck on (the art didn't hurt either).

Over reading his whole entire run and specifically his last "arc", some things I have noticed and these are not singling Judd out because I see this all over the place in DC's writing.

IC is definitely getting in the way of storytelling. There is no doubt about it anymore.

From specifically the last arc of Batman and this Annual. It was incomplete storytelling that just wandered around for 4-5 issues with no real purpose and doesn't really tie into anything that is going on anywhere else in DCU.

Not even in Catwoman, which is where Black Mask should have been handled. It would have been nice to see Catwoman and Batman a little better connected in this run. Communication between the Bat-office and other offices of ther seems to be...not so good.

It had it's bright moments but it's purely assinine moments beat out it's good moments. Shoot the C-4 and having it explode, sorry Judd, you do not get a pass. Do some research or have someone get on it.

Questions of why stuff happened and how they happened. I don't need it fed to me on a sppon but there is a fine line between spoon feeding and not giving enough information. Continuity and internal cohesiveness is like connecting dots and on a number of points in this arc, you get half way to the point you're trying to get to and you have to stop.

That's no way to tell a story. The storytelling here was my main issue with the arc. Winick didn't give me a reason to care about Jason early on in this arc, yea, he's a former Robin who has come back to be a cold blooded murderer (which is what he is)...

Okay. Agree or disagree with that assessment, I don't care. Just respect it. That's all I ask.

As for DCU as a whole, storytelling through out (with a few exceptions) has been sub par. Infinite Crisis has gotten in the way of storytelling. No doubt about it.

Sacrifice was an incomplete story with poor pacing. The first two issues didn't contribute at all to the story and the last two issues were too fast paced. The scene with Max, Superman and Wonder Woman was just horribly done and the principal reason why the story was in complete.

The Countdown minis themselves as I look back at them were just wastes of time. They just kind of meandered through a weak plot base that only served to make sure to put out an "Batman Annual #25-esque" money grab.

Storytelling on the whole has been sub par since Infinite Crisis #1. Ick... i think i'll stand with you in that assestment because i'm seeing much of the same thing sadly

[Violently Apathetic]

That's no way to tell a story. The storytelling here was my main issue with the arc. Winick didn't give me a reason to care about Jason early on in this arc, yea, he's a former Robin who has come back to be a cold blooded murderer (which is what he is)...

Here's the thing, I don't think his intent was for you to feel any sort of emotional investment in the Red Hood until issue 650/The Annual. The fact is that Jason was portrayed with two basic emotions until then; Contempt and anger. I find it hard to believe that a man with as much writing experience as Winick (good or bad) would not be doing this intentionally. The Red Hood was set up to be an almost alien force in Gotham specifically so (in my opinion) it would seem as a substantially marked contrast when we finally saw him break down in 650. The fact that Jason was unmasked for the first time in this issue (albeit not completely) and had most of his toys stripped away helps strengthen this idea, to me. This was the first and only time that Jason allowed the facade to drop and addressed Batman as a hurt and angry son since he reappeared. It was meant to startle, you're supposed to contrast the calm and collected Red Hood persona that you've come to be so familiar with to the angry and hurt child that is the driving force behind it.

Now obviously the effect of this failed for the most part, judging by the responses here (though it's a bit different at some other forums where I've discussed the book) but I simply cannot believe that Winick didn't keep us distanced from the Red Hood emotionally on purpose. So, IMHO, criticism is not warrented for making the Red Hood seem one dimensional for the most part, as I THINK that was the point, but perhaps there is more room for criticism because he failed to make the contrast more striking and thus get the emotional response, or at least shaking of the heads' and 'Ah, so that's it!' he was looking for.

I think the pacing could have had a lot to do with dulling the effect and in that sense I DO agree with much of what you said.

On another note, I've been thinking about this WAY too much, I just tried to log myself in at another community under the name 'Jason Todd'...

[DCKar2nist]

Here's the thing, I don't think his intent was for you to feel any sort of emotional investment in the Red Hood until issue 650/The Annual.

That's pretty much how I feel whether it was intentional as you suggest is anybodys guess.

[SdotCopp]

That was my FAVORITE part of the whole story... and really made me miss Jim Aparo on Batman.


Yup...i came in this thread basically to make the same exact statement...i liked that portion of the story a lot

[Viking Bastard]

The two major theories were: Alternate Earth Jason and The Lazarus Pit.

And they used both.

Hah!

[Big Scary]

I have to say that for the most part I enjoyed the story. Mainly because I don’t have an emotional investment in Batman anymore. I had heard the hype about the return of Jason and began reading the Bat books to stay abreast. Personally I liked the Annual as an overall read I just felt some things were missing. For anyone who has been waiting to figure it all out will be slightly disappointed with the lack of info other than the actual way he returned from the grave.

Someone earlier on in the thread had mentioned that there were two panels of info in regards to who trained him and how old he was supposed to be. Seems like that’s not nearly enough info considering the page numbers in this annual.

Also there seems to be some continuity questions as well as some overall strange occurrences. For instance why hadn’t Jason's body decomposed at all in the coffin? Usually a body decays in approximately 2 days doesn’t it? And second of all how does the IC timeline factor into this? Lets say the IC story is happening right now. Spoiler: Essentially the escape causes the rebirth of Jason Todd. End Spoilers So what is the time frame between when he is revived and when he finishes his training. How much training time did he have? Essentially it would have been like 3 days between when he came back to life and when he started being a vigilante in Gotham, wouldn’t it? Even if it had been a year how did he get to the point where he was kicking Batman's ass? Someone help me shed some light on this idea.

But overall I actually kind of liked the idea. At least it wasn’t one of those; well he was never really dead anyway scenarios.

[Viking Bastard]

2 days?

More like two years!

[Choppa]

And second of all how does the IC timeline factor into this? Lets say the IC story is happening right now. Spoiler: Essentially the escape causes the rebirth of Jason Todd. End Spoilers

Well remember that Sup Boy Prime and Alex have been escaping for a while before E2 Supes broke the fortress and escaped, so since we don't know when he first left. For logic's sake it would have to be sometime soon after they went inside the fortress b/c in order for SBP to have fetched the AM's body, it would have had to have been soon since the sun would have burnt it up prett