Geoff Johns: Making DC characters unlikable?

[CaptainAwesome]

Is it just me, or do John's characters seem unlikable? From Teen titans to Flash to Green Lantern, I am progressively starting to dread reading these characters. Most of them seem to be very angry. Wally, Hal, Tim, Connor all have this major chip on their shoulder under Johns. In fact, even though I started reading The Flash during Johns run, I dint start to like him till I read Waid's trades.

And it doesnt stop with making certain characters unlikable. The ones that he cant seem to make angry he pushes into the background. Kid Flash, Beast Boy, Jay Garrick take the back seat to Wally and Connor's angst.

What do you guys think? And BTW I dont mean this to be a "bash the writer" thread, I just want to know if anyone else feels this way.

[EZMOHR]

It's just you.

[mohammedali]

I like Johns writing a lot of the time. Sure he shows some powerful emotions, but you're just concentration on one of them rather than looking at the other emotions. Green Lantern #9 is a great example. Here we see Batman seemingly cold and perhaps angry at the start of the issue, but by the end he's as far from Batjerk as he's been in a while. i like the writing.

Mohammed Ali

[Damo]

"Chip on his shoulder".

Yes.

Yes, that's exactly it. I've been trying to figure out what it is about his Hal that's been making me hate the character, and I just haven't been able to put my finger on it. But that's exactly the right phrase.

So you're not alone.

[JulianPerez]

I can't believe of all the writers that this could be said of, that it is said of the "character doctor" himself, Geoff Johns, who has an amazing ability to make characters likeable that previously had no personality or an irritating personality before.

It was Geoff Johns that had the previously annoying, pizza-eating slackers in Young Justice behave in a very mature fashoin - he made them "grow up" and change with time. Bart Allen went from a skateboarding, obnoxious cliche better suited to telling kids to buy "X-TREME SPORTS YOGURT!" and to "always recycle...TO THE EXTREME!" to a character with dignity and worth. He took the previously whiny, histrionic Superboy, known for his immaturity and idiocy, and forced the Superman name on him, making him develop into a character that takes himself and who he is seriously. And the Superman/Lex clone move was absolutely inspired; previously, who he was cloned from before was a murky afterthought...was it the director of Cadmus or some other no-account? I mean, who cares?

Geoff Johns took Power Girl, previously a redundancy that should have died in Crisis that was never given a personality except shrill feminism, and made her a "Type A."

Geoff Johns took the original female Red Tornado, a character whose most famous trait is mannishness and crossdressing, and instead of making her a goofy joke the way an inferior writer like Giffen would have, he treated her with respect and dignity as the JLA's matron.

And Geoff Johns gave us back a real Doctor Fate instead of that whiny wank with the leather jacket and tattoos, restored to the DC Universe a Hawkman that made sense, and gave us back the gift of the return of one of the greatest characters in comics history, Hal Jordan, while simultaneously writing Kyle Rayner as a worthy hero, no longer a rookie - the first writer to actually make me not hate Kyle as a scheming usurper. Johns deserves real props for making even a die-hard Kyle hater like me actually LIKE him.

Geoff Johns made loveable the Freedom Fighters before he killed them. If it had been anyone else, the response would have been "meh, death." But all that flavor text about Uncle Sam made him a truly larger than life figure who wrestled Paul Bunyan and taught Johnny Appleseed to plant, and I breathed a sigh of relief when it is revealed Uncle Sam survived.

So, in conclusion, yeah, it is just you.

[Static-Pulse]

Is it just me, or do John's characters seem unlikable?It's not just you, believe me.

(And that's all I'll say, but do invite me back if we ever have a "Bash the Writer Thread" -- I rather like those. *eg*)

[CaptainAwesome]

IMO, he didnt improve much with the teen titans. He just made them from "fun" to "broody and mopey". Just because a character is pissed most of the time doesnt mean he/she is more mature, just that he/she is pissed all the time. Putting the Lex-clone thing on superboy just gave him something to whine about. I think "character doctor" is a bit of an over statement.

[CaptainAwesome]

It's not just you, believe me.

(And that's all I'll say, but do invite me back if we ever have a "Bash the Writer Thread" -- I rather like those. *eg*)
Feel free to bash, I just dont want to get blamed for it.

[CURSD BLADE]

I am of two minds for your argument.

Johns writes some incredibly likeable characters. Wally West was such a humble, decent everyman under Johns pen.

Tim Drake, while angry and brooding, is a loyal friend in Teen Titans.

Batman's recent appearance in Green Lantern was the most human the character has been under the script of any other "big" DC writers.

All the JSA members feel like a likeable, functional, family.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, his persona of Hal Jordan is more arrogant, and his playboy persona is obnoxious.

[Sabrinaset]

Well, he actually made the Rogues likeable, especially Captain Cold, so...

[Citizen V]

I think he is rather doing a good job,but i have heard..more than a few people that are not happy with his work.Still a small group,but more than just the single unhappy fan.

[Static-Pulse]

Feel free to bash, I just dont want to get blamed for it.Okay! First, my complete disclaimer when approaching this subject: I like Stargirl. Stargirl is one of my favorite DC characters, and while I realize Johns did create her, I'd argue that was the best thing he ever did with the character. Okay? Okay.

Geoff Johns's biggest problem is that he's boring. People have labeled him as something of a "blue collar" comic writer -- that may be wrong, but it was something very, very close to that. I've nothing against "blue collars," but when I'm reading about people who traverse the stars, come from beyong the stars, etc. I don't want them to read like Buck the Mechanic down the street -- unless, of course, Buck is secretly a robot hiding out. I want them to be phenomenal, genius, and awesome. I've never gotten that from Johns, nearly all of his characters have a kind of "aw shucks" feel to them.

"Aw shucks, I was never a whiz with computers..." "Aw shucks, I'm just a blind doctor..." "Aw shucks, Hal Jordan's here, I want his autograph!" "Aw shucks, I'm just a machine colony from the 853rd century..."

His characters read (to me) like they're almost ashamed of their abilities. They lack the manic drive that writers like Warren Ellis, Joe Casey, Joe Kelly, Dan Abnett, James Robinson, and (as I hear it) Grant Morrison give their characters. They lack the edge that people who've been in the hero business for fifty years should have, they lack the alien mindset that people who juggle the powers of gods need to stay sane, and they typically lack the brains that people in their business would need to have.

Most all of his heroes read like people I deal with everyday, which I believe people praise him for, his realism; if I wanted realism, I'd hang out with the people I have to deal with everyday. I wouldn't be reading comic books. With the odd exception of Stargirl -- and even I don't grok that, so feel free to mock me mercilessly -- almost everything Johns has done grates on my nerves because it's so mundane.

Yeah, he matured the Teen Titans, but why? They were doing okay and saving the world even when they were goofy and a bit immature. So he gave Power Girl a history? I kind of liked her back when she was a programmer-magician-Atlantean-Kryptonian without a past -- Giffen and DeMattis didn't give her a background in ICBINTJL, and she was a fun and happy character there. They're superheroes, they're supposed to immature with mysterious backgrounds, that's part of the fun...

Other people love him, and he makes DC buckets of money, so it's not like anything I say matters, but... He's boring, and most every character he writes becomes just as boring by extension.

That's not my entire treatise for disliking Johns, and I'm trying not to be overly vulgar to prevent the thread from being deleted. (I'm not sure how the moderators respond to things like, "He wants to touch Hal Jordan in the no-no area.") That, though, in broad strokes is why I dislike Johns.

His stuff is just plain boring.

[CaptainAwesome]

His characters read (to me) like they're almost ashamed of their abilities. They lack the manic drive that writers like Warren Ellis, Joe Casey, Joe Kelly, Dan Abnett, James Robinson, and (as I hear it) Grant Morrison give their characters. They lack the edge that people who've been in the hero business for fifty years should have, they lack the alien mindset that people who juggle the powers of gods need to stay sane, and they typically lack the brains that people in their business would need to have.


Bingo! Thats it! Thats why I dont like these characters as much as I should. In fact I agree with most of what you said, except the whole Stargirl thing (frankly I dont know), but this part really sums it up for me.

[Indefatigable]

I can't believe of all the writers that this could be said of, that it is said of the "character doctor" himself, Geoff Johns, who has an amazing ability to make characters likeable that previously had no personality or an irritating personality before.

It was Geoff Johns that had the previously annoying, pizza-eating slackers in Young Justice behave in a very mature fashoin - he made them "grow up" and change with time. Bart Allen went from a skateboarding, obnoxious cliche better suited to telling kids to buy "X-TREME SPORTS YOGURT!" and to "always recycle...TO THE EXTREME!" to a character with dignity and worth. He took the previously whiny, histrionic Superboy, known for his immaturity and idiocy, and forced the Superman name on him, making him develop into a character that takes himself and who he is seriously. And the Superman/Lex clone move was absolutely inspired; previously, who he was cloned from before was a murky afterthought...was it the director of Cadmus or some other no-account? I mean, who cares?

Geoff Johns took Power Girl, previously a redundancy that should have died in Crisis that was never given a personality except shrill feminism, and made her a "Type A."

Geoff Johns took the original female Red Tornado, a character whose most famous trait is mannishness and crossdressing, and instead of making her a goofy joke the way an inferior writer like Giffen would have, he treated her with respect and dignity as the JLA's matron.

And Geoff Johns gave us back a real Doctor Fate instead of that whiny wank with the leather jacket and tattoos, restored to the DC Universe a Hawkman that made sense, and gave us back the gift of the return of one of the greatest characters in comics history, Hal Jordan, while simultaneously writing Kyle Rayner as a worthy hero, no longer a rookie - the first writer to actually make me not hate Kyle as a scheming usurper. Johns deserves real props for making even a die-hard Kyle hater like me actually LIKE him.

Geoff Johns made loveable the Freedom Fighters before he killed them. If it had been anyone else, the response would have been "meh, death." But all that flavor text about Uncle Sam made him a truly larger than life figure who wrestled Paul Bunyan and taught Johnny Appleseed to plant, and I breathed a sigh of relief when it is revealed Uncle Sam survived.

So, in conclusion, yeah, it is just you.I don't agree with EVERYTHING you said, but it's very close to what I think.

I like my characters "aw shucks" relatable. The more human they are, the more I can believe they can be real, the more I like them. It's been said than whenver Johns discusses characters, he speaks as if they were real, and that translates very often to his writing. The heroes and villans can have god-like powers, but if they're totally emotionally dead and come off as inhuman, even if they aren't human, then I tend to find them very dull (hi Supergirl). But that's just me.

[Bat-Mite]

Is it just me, or do John's characters seem unlikable?

I wouldn't say that all the characters Geoff Johns touches become unlikable, but... you do have a bit of a point somewhere in there.

Geoff John's Impulse is downright boring. He took Road Runner and turned him into LAMEASSO, the encyclopedia that walks like a man!

Hal Jordan, as Geoff writes him is downright a punch-trigger happy butt-hat.

But other than these two, I can't recall any characters he has actually made unlikeable. I agree with Static-Pulse that Geoff Johns' writing can be... er... boring, but not that he makes all his characters unlikeable; just those two I mentioned.

[hitokiri_]

is this one of those "damn you geoff for being writer of the year instead of (insert marvel writer here)!!!" thread?

[Nick Kal]

Geoff Johns' writing is impecabble. His stories always have me interested and his characterizations are great.

For me, he took Bart as an irritating joke in Impulse and made him a hero who was deserving of the legacy that the Flash holds in Kid Flash.

His handling of Conner thoughout the Insiders arc and Crisis has been spot on.

His Tim Drake is always someone I like to read.

Hal Jordan is probably one of my faves of his. Hal has that edginess that really draws you to him.

And his Crisis work is just blowing me away.

[handOFfate]

Yes, he writes a lot of characters as if they have a chip on their shoulder, but that doesn't necessarily make them unlikable. Wally West is a very likeable hero. His earlier JSA work was fantastic. I can honestly say I didn't dislike a single character, which is a first. His earlier work on Teen Titans was great, especially the Titans Tomorrow arc. And he gave Superboy some badly-needed characterization. If I have one true complaint of Johns, it's that Wondergirl and especially Kid Flash are underwritten.

[LoneWolf21]

It was Geoff Johns that had the previously annoying, pizza-eating slackers in Young Justice behave in a very mature fashoin - he made them "grow up" and change with time. Bart Allen went from a skateboarding, obnoxious cliche better suited to telling kids to buy "X-TREME SPORTS YOGURT!" and to "always recycle...TO THE EXTREME!" to a character with dignity and worth. He took the previously whiny, histrionic Superboy, known for his immaturity and idiocy, and forced the Superman name on him, making him develop into a character that takes himself and who he is seriously. And the Superman/Lex clone move was absolutely inspired; previously, who he was cloned from before was a murky afterthought...was it the director of Cadmus or some other no-account? I mean, who cares?

You never read much Young Justice, did you?

Bart is nothing more than a boring Wally West clone, no longer a fun and unique character, he's just a shadow of another character.

Wonder Girl, once a tomboy with spunk and a remarkable leader, is now just Superboy's girlfriend.

Superboy? He's not only retreading arcs done before in the Superboy solo series ("Oh no, I'm cloned from a jerk!" and "I might be evil!"), but now Conner/Kon is being written as a wimp. When something bad happened before, he would mourn, but still fight the good fight, no he just retreats to into his shell and sulks.

Admittedly Tim hasn't changed much, but that's because he's really outside of Johns's writing influence because of his solo series and role in the Batbooks.

The charm of Young Justice was that these kids acted like actual teenagers. They didn't need some giant introductionary arc to give a reason to form. They were of similiar age, and they were friends with similiar interests, it was as simple as that.

[Apathy Boy]

Johns' characters sometimes get too angtsy, but his Wally West was wonderful (at least during the Kolins run). I still get a kick out of time slowing to a crawl for Wally during a visit with the in-laws.

I like his Robin a lot too. And he pretty much turned Captain Cold into a fan-favourite anti-hero (which is weird, because Lenny's still acting like a villain).

[geordiesteve]

I like the fact that he writes characters as real people not cliches. Yes they may be wonderful and amazing with the costume on, and they do gon such adventures with him writing, but I also like to see what they do on their downtime. Who they are, where they go, and of course their emotions and how their 'day job' affects the rest of their life and their behaviour. I think he just writes more realistic characters than we've seen before.

I really like that they've finally done something with Power Girl too. I enjoy his writing.

[Ian J.N.]

The number of DC characters Johns has handled is HUGE, and, law of averages, there's going to be interpretations you don't like. It's unfair to single out a few examples and then make the blanket statement that Johns screws up characters. If we're making generalizations, I would claim just the opposite: Johns is DC's premier character fixer. He has that ability to seize on what makes a character cool, and then flesh it out, spin it in new directions. Characterization is one of his strongest skills as a writer.

[TCJohnson]

Is it just me, or do John's characters seem unlikable? From Teen titans to Flash to Green Lantern, I am progressively starting to dread reading these characters. Most of them seem to be very angry. Wally, Hal, Tim, Connor all have this major chip on their shoulder under Johns. In fact, even though I started reading The Flash during Johns run, I dint start to like him till I read Waid's trades.

And it doesnt stop with making certain characters unlikable. The ones that he cant seem to make angry he pushes into the background. Kid Flash, Beast Boy, Jay Garrick take the back seat to Wally and Connor's angst.

What do you guys think? And BTW I dont mean this to be a "bash the writer" thread, I just want to know if anyone else feels this way.

It is not jsut you. I don't really like Geoff Johns characterizations either. But this is to be expected. There is no writer that everybody likes. I think Terry Pratchett is the best writer of the past several decades, and I know there are a lot of people who disagree with me.

[Tennoarashi]

I wouldn't say he makes all characters unlikable. Far from it.

It just ends up that he tends to make my favourite characters look not so hot, sometimes.

[glennsim]

It appears this falls into the same category as other discussions, which is should DC super-hero comics be more "real" or more "fun". I'm not trying to build positive or negative into either one - I myself can't make up my mind which I prefer. I suppose I'm on the line, leaning more towards "real".

On the "fun" side, it's hard to discuss dudes in spandex beating on each other as being anything realistic. Comics can certainly be an escape.

On the "real" side, it's also hard to dispute that when New Teen Titans came out, bringing much more "real" characterization than other DC books had at the time, it became a huge seller. It could be said that comics are more of an escape when there's a more relatable door to escape through.

From what I can tell, there are fans of both approaches.

Geoff Johns tends to lean towards the "real" side, which makes him appeal more to the "real" fans (which looks like I'm being sarcastic - please refer to previous paragraphs for clarification). But others will see him as "dragging down" the heroes to a level they aren't meant to be on.

Just some editorial about the discussion. Carry on.

[Damo]

Maybe I'm talking out of my hat here... but looking at his runs, I strongly get the feeling that what Johns excells at is threats.

Aside from the Dini-Timm team and Gail Simone, I can't think of anyone DC-related that's got Johns' knack for taking a kind-of lame villain and turning them into a legitimate threat. And when it comes to having the characters react to crap being flung at them, he's often top notch (Not always - his Superboy is a whiny sulking 16 year old, but fairly often).

But when his heroes are off the clock, it's like he's a different writer. This works to an extent on JSA, but not so well elsewhere.

Now that I think of it, I think I'd love to give him a good run on Superman. I probably wouldn't like his take on Big Blue, but looking at what he's done to Hal's tired old Rogue's Gallery, I get the feeling he'd give Supes' rogues the makeover they desperately need.

[shrike]

IMO Johns work is hit or miss.

I loved a fair percentage of his JSA, I think Infinite Crisis is, seriously, a big ol' heap of messy, thrown about doo doo.

Haven't noticed the chip on the shoulder thing, really. At times however he has written some characters poorly (his WW, for the most part, is hugely not in character in her appearances before IC which he wrote).

Johns also has a tendency for his plots to be rather anti climatic.

He still is far better than a number of writers in the DC stable, such as Winnick and Meltzer.

[Zero Hunter]

You want unlikable go read the Legion of Super Heroes. Waid has made nearly 3/4 of the team unlikable assholes.

[CaptainAwesome]

For the record I would just like to say i dont think of Johns as a bad writer, infact he has some great ideas. I just mean that IMO his characterization really stinks. So dont think I started this thread because i have a huge vendetta against Johns. ;)

[DCKar2nist]

How can you say that? I loved his Flash run, I hated to see him leave that title. He was the first one to really focus on the Flash family- Jay Garrick and Bart Allen.

[CaptainAwesome]

How can you say that? I loved his Flash run, I hated to see him leave that title. He was the first one to really focus on the Flash family- Jay Garrick and Bart Allen.
Like I said, hes not a bad writer.

On the other hand, like one poster (too lazy to check who) said before, his wally seemed like he was ashamed of being the flash. In waids run, not that it was perfect either, but Wally really came to terms with who he was, taking Barry's place as part of the Flash legacy. John's wally constantly complained about the flash museum and the way people praised him. He tried too hard to be the everyman when he should have been "the fastest man alive".

[Bat-Mite]

He was the first one to really focus on the Flash family- Jay Garrick and Bart Allen.


Er... from what I remember of the Waid run, they were all over the place there. Heck, they were all over the place in the Morrison/Millar run too. I don't see what you are talking about.

[DCKar2nist]

Bart Allen was all over the run post #99 but Jay Garrick was only in a handful of issues, Grant Morrison only recently took the time to develop the bond. I didn't say they didn't guest star in other's runs but they didn't share the spotlight and make it really feel like a team book until recently... agreed?

[DCKar2nist]

Morrison/Millar run

which issues were those?

[Bat-Mite]

agreed?

Not really. I can't recall any exact scene from the Waid run, but Jay Garrick, Bart and Max Mercury were all over the place in the Morrison/Millar issues. The three of them helped out Wally fight the haunted costume, Jay got an issue for himself there, they helped Wally win the human race and then they all fought together the dark Flash.

It's not like they weren't a team before Johns. In fact, I haven't seen them as much as I saw them back then.

which issues were those?

From 130 to... ah... 142 if I am not mistaken.

[Babylon23]

I don't see Johns characters as unlikable at all. Quite the opposite, actually. In Titans, he's actually gotten me interested in both Robin and Superboy, which is a first.

I think he's worked wonders with the JSA, making Mr. Terrific, Stargirl and Dr. Mid-Nite into 3 of DC's best new characters, and working wonders with Atom-Smasher, Black Adam, and Hourman.

I thought his Flash was one of the most down to earth characters I've seen in recent comics. I never thought he was ashamed of being the Falsh. Also, he's really developed the Rogue's Gallery into some of the best villains in comics.

I love his take on Hal Jordan. He's a little hot headed and arrogant, but there's a real depth to his personality as well (the latest issue with Batman is a good example).

He also produced one of the best character moments I've seen in years during IC #4, the scene with Batman and Nightwing.

[Bat-Mite]

Oh, speaking of Waid.

http://ublib.buffalo.edu/lml/comics/pages/images/flashterminal.jpg

That's the whole gang. I really don't see what you mean.

[Static-Pulse]

Oh, speaking of Waid.I read Waid's Flash back before I discovered the "pull list" so I didn't get all the issues I could have... I do remember "Terminal Velocity" and the stories after that, when John Fox showed up and Wally was tripping through the time stream... Jay, Bart, Jessie, Max, Johnny Quick, and the gang were there for at least -- what? -- "Teminal Velocity" and the Savitar arc. I know they were there for more than that, though.

You want to talk speedsters, let's not forget that it was James Robinson and David Goyer -- not Elle Geef -- who bolstered Jay Garrick's character in JSA and Johnny Quick's in The Golden Age mini. It was Geoff Johns, if memory serves, who pointed out that Johnny Quick's formula was bunk and that Jesse Quick would best serve as a whipping girl for Alan Scott(1).

(1. I stopped reading JSA Real Soon after Jesse came onboard as the museum administrator -- I guess the real world of business was too much for her pretty, lil' head -- and promptly got yelled at by Alan Scott for being a quitter(?) and, I believe, all-but felt-up by Sandy.)

[Gargus]

I dont know him well enough but I do know I dont like his takes on green lantern. Ive enjoyed GL many times but his versions just seem flat and bit lifeless.

But then again he writes good stories but I dont like his portrayls of charcters. His plotlines are good but just the way she does the actual charcters dont agree with me. I know I repeated myself but I cant quite explain what it is I dont like, its on the tip of my tounge.

[Ontir]

Johns has always seemed to have something of a chip on his own shoulder, each time I've spoken to him, so perhaps he just assumes everyone does.

[stealthwise]

Both Waid's and Johns' runs on the Flash have their own advantages and disadvantages, but I think that they each did a tremendous job, respectively.

I like the character of Hawkman, but not the title much itself, from Johns.

Re-Birth was excellent for what it was, and although it took a while for me to get into, I'm really digging his run on Green Lantern so far.

[DCKar2nist]

Okay, I did enjoy the terminal velocity arc, I believe thats when impulse was introduced right? Anyway I guess I need to re-read my Flash collection, it's been awhile so I concede, point taken, my apologies Bat-Mite.

[Bat-Mite]

Okay, I did enjoy the terminal velocity arc, I believe thats when impulse was introduced right?

Not sure. I think that was before.

my apologies Bat-Mite.


What for?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I wonder how some can say that about Geoff Johns work. I really come away with the feeling that Johns loves these charactors. Like the JSA and Wally. He seems to have a great love for them.

Heroes question themselves a lot. I always liked when a hero wasn't so sure because it made them human to me. I know others hate that...but not me.

My only problem with Johns is his Green Lantern , which I'm slowly starting to get with now. But his Flash,JSA,Teen Titans rocks baby. ;)

[NathanielEssex]

I think he made the JSA infinitely more likeable.

As far as the Flash. I know many will disagree with me, but I saw some arrogance in Geoff's Flash. If there was somebody that acted like that around me, I wouldn't want to hurt him, but I also wouldn't want to be around him, either (I know a couple of people like this). It made me dislike the Flash, but not enough to stop collecting issues featuring his rogues (I love what Geoff did to the villains, though! ). Personally, I'd like it a little if they decided to off Wally.

Hal Jordan: I hate this character. He's so obnoxious and arrogant, that if somebody acted like that in real life, I would be sorely tempted to knock his ass out.

So, I agree that Geoff makes characters unlikeable, Hal used to be my second favorite DC hero. (Grey-temples Hal)

But he also makes characters really likeable. It was mostly because of Johns that the JSA are my favorite DC team.

[josh straightedge]

I can't stand his Hal Jordan. On the same subject, I can't stand his GL monthly book either.

[titanfan]

Weird...He's the first writer ever that has made Hal interesting and likeable for me.

For me, I really like his takes on: Hal, Impulse, Batman, Starfire, Power Girl, Deathstroke, Flash

I think he misses the mark on: Superboy, Raven, Dove, Wonder Woman

[THE OG GL]

I can't believe of all the writers that this could be said of, that it is said of the "character doctor" himself, Geoff Johns, who has an amazing ability to make characters likeable that previously had no personality or an irritating personality before.

It was Geoff Johns that had the previously annoying, pizza-eating slackers in Young Justice behave in a very mature fashoin - he made them "grow up" and change with time. Bart Allen went from a skateboarding, obnoxious cliche better suited to telling kids to buy "X-TREME SPORTS YOGURT!" and to "always recycle...TO THE EXTREME!" to a character with dignity and worth. He took the previously whiny, histrionic Superboy, known for his immaturity and idiocy, and forced the Superman name on him, making him develop into a character that takes himself and who he is seriously. And the Superman/Lex clone move was absolutely inspired; previously, who he was cloned from before was a murky afterthought...was it the director of Cadmus or some other no-account? I mean, who cares?

Geoff Johns took Power Girl, previously a redundancy that should have died in Crisis that was never given a personality except shrill feminism, and made her a "Type A."

Geoff Johns took the original female Red Tornado, a character whose most famous trait is mannishness and crossdressing, and instead of making her a goofy joke the way an inferior writer like Giffen would have, he treated her with respect and dignity as the JLA's matron.

And Geoff Johns gave us back a real Doctor Fate instead of that whiny wank with the leather jacket and tattoos, restored to the DC Universe a Hawkman that made sense, and gave us back the gift of the return of one of the greatest characters in comics history, Hal Jordan, while simultaneously writing Kyle Rayner as a worthy hero, no longer a rookie - the first writer to actually make me not hate Kyle as a scheming usurper. Johns deserves real props for making even a die-hard Kyle hater like me actually LIKE him.

Geoff Johns made loveable the Freedom Fighters before he killed them. If it had been anyone else, the response would have been "meh, death." But all that flavor text about Uncle Sam made him a truly larger than life figure who wrestled Paul Bunyan and taught Johnny Appleseed to plant, and I breathed a sigh of relief when it is revealed Uncle Sam survived.

So, in conclusion, yeah, it is just you.


^OFT

mad props

[lonesomefool]

I dont think his characters are unlikeable, so much as sometimes they are unrelatable, they often IMO dont sound like real people. I'm bias though, I'm just not a big fan of his writing at all. It's nothing really personal, he seems like a nice guy, but everything I have bought and read from him, a handful of Green Lantern, Flash, JSA, Teen Titans and Hawkman issues, and none of them have really WOWed me. The only time I have ever really dug his work was where Flash forgot who he was, after that I didnt dig it again. I think his writing appeals more to people seeking a more "traditional" comic writer who uses continuity heavily. As someone who is a younger reader, his work just doesnt do much for me, his continuity references mean nothing to me and his characters, especially his teens, dont come off as relatable to me. I'm glad people like him and all, but I cant think of one other writer, outside of Hudlin, Byrne and Lieberman whose name makes me avoid a comic more.

[DCKar2nist]

I think most Fans of the Flash hated that arc. THat's the only arc Geoff Johns wrote that I really had a problem with, it was very "Flash", it didn't suit the character.


And the Green Lantern mini-series didn't wow you?

[CaptainAwesome]

I think most Fans of the Flash hated that arc. THat's the only arc Geoff Johns wrote that I really had a problem with, it was very "Flash", it didn't suit the character.


And the Green Lantern mini-series didn't wow you?
Actually, my 2 favorite arcs of his Flash were Blitz and Ignition. Those were the ones that really got me hooked.

Also, I loved Rebirth. That was probably the best thing hes done with Hal Jordan. Sure the space bug paralax thing was goofy, but otherwise very good.

[lonesomefool]

Nope, Rebirth didnt wow me. It had great art, but other than that I felt it just wasnt a very interesting story. Then again GL is a tough book to sell me no matter who writing it. Personally I just dont think he is very good, better than some, but IMO his dialogue often sounds like it was ripped from the 70's and his plots and stories often require the reader to have a large understanding of other DCU books or the DCU history. I think he is better than some writers, but worse than a lot of other ones. He often falls into the same category as Kurt Busiek for me, his dialogue and plots are just a little too old fashioned for me. His work appeals mainly to hardcore Super Hero fans who enjoy seeing little continuity bits from 20 years ago referenced in their comics. But for someone like me, new to the DCU, his work comes off as if your missing half the pages of the book since so much is referenced that isnt always explained.

[NathanielEssex]

Yeah, Rebirth didn't impress me, either. The art was outstanding, though.

[lonesomefool]

I mean, again I dont want to come off as some crazy guy who wishes the Johns was dead or anything, he just doesnt appeal to me. I tend to prefer writers who do more down to earth Super Hero stories and focus equally on their relationships, life in and outside the costume. Everything I have read from Geoff Johns has been REALLY good on the relationship end of things, but when it comes to the Super Hero part, I just get lost because he references so much stuff, and generally it almost comes off as fan fiction in the sense he loves the characters TOO much. I REALLY dig Johns' work when he does quieter issues, those Rogue issues for Flash were some of the best issues coming out of DC, and even Green Lantern #4 was good because it focused on Hal and Hectors relationship, it's when he does Super Hero action that I just stop caring.

I think part of my dislike of his work has been in the past year, I think Crisis is taking so much of his time that his other books have suffered from it. I worry the same thing will happen with 52 and that's why I'm avoiding his OYL stuff, the guy is at his best when he is doing 3-4 books a month IMO.