Secret Wars And Crisis

[Tommy]

I have heard it said several times that Secret Wars was some sort of Crisis On the Infinite Earths rip-off despite it coming out a full year ahead.

Could some one please provide some sort of ACTUAL evidence to support this claim, or can we please officially conclude it is an unfounded Internet speculation.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Well, your first paragraph pretty much nailed it...

[marshal99]

I think it's more to do with Secret Wars II , when the baby beyonder died , it destroyed countless universes , one of the comic panels shows of the cosmic effects looked like those when the crisis first started with the white wave of oblivion. I think that was one of the so-called theory that Secret wars is linked to crisis. :)

[StoneGold]

There is no actual evidence of it, but I'm pretty sure the claims predate the Internet. Basically, the story goes that Crisis was in the works for over a year before it actually came out, whereas Secret Wars was put together more or less on the fly.

[DDM]

Secret Wars was Marvel's trying to take on DC's Crisis On Infinite Earths; however, both stories are very different. Furthermore, Marvel used Secret Wars as a advertisment for the toyline that came out at the same time.

Read the forward in the Secret Wars TPB.

[Gargus]

Secret wars was a different story alltogether and have barely if anything at all in common with eachother.

Secret wars. The beyonder takes heroes and villians from earth and creates a planet for them to fight to the death on so he can learn about what it is to be a human and such and why they do what they do. The winning side gets a wish granted of whatever they want.

Infinite earths. Is a ancient being trying to destroy all the alternate universes. Some of the universes combining in the chaos. A mirror image of the anti monitor (bad guy) is trying to gather heros to stop him from destroying everything who is monitor (the good guy).

Infinite earths had a better indepth story (even if confusing often times) but secret wars was a more fun read as it had good action and such in it.

[Tommy]

Infinite earths had a better indepth story (even if confusing often times) but secret wars was a more fun read as it had good action and such in it.
I really wish Wolfman had sat down and figured out what the hell anti-matter was prior to writing about it. The whole thing makes no sense at all. First Anti-Matter destroys everything, but then the heroes can wonder around in it, but then when a matter universe is destroyed the anti-matter universe fills it (fills it with what?)…

[Capt USA]

I really wish Wolfman had sat down and figured out what the hell anti-matter was prior to writing about it. The whole thing makes no sense at all. First Anti-Matter destroys everything, but then the heroes can wonder around in it, but then when a matter universe is destroyed the anti-matter universe fills it (fills it with what?)…


wolfman didn't create the anti-matter universe, it had existed for years before crisis, he just exploited it for the story.

[Tommy]

wolfman didn't create the anti-matter universe, it had existed for years before crisis, he just exploited it for the story.
Well he should have figured out how to make it work in some sort of sensable way. Rather than leaving people scratching their heads wondering why Earth can be distroyed by it in one issue and then harmlessly exisit in it in anouther.

[DDM]

Well he should have figured out how to make it work in some sort of sensable way. Rather than leaving people scratching their heads wondering why Earth can be distroyed by it in one issue and then harmlessly exisit in it in anouther.

The Anti-Monitor turned anti-matter into pure energy to consume the positive matter universes; hence no explaination needed (see Crisis On Infinite Earths #10).

Sinestro was exiled on Qward after he was corrupted by his power as a Green Lantern. Therefore, precedence does exist for positive matter beings to exist in anti-matter (vice-versa).

[Citizen V]

Secret Wars was Marvel's trying to take on DC's Crisis On Infinite Earths; however, both stories are very different. Furthermore, Marvel used Secret Wars as a advertisment for the toyline that came out at the same time.

Read the forward in the Secret Wars TPB.

I had heard about this,but not often.The exact years im not really sure..i belive that the original COIE was 1984 or 1986,and the Secret Wars were sometime later.Years and dates would be welcome.

But i think that the COIE was a bigger success.But i may be wrong.

[Capt USA]

I had heard about this,but not often.The exact years im not really sure..i belive that the original COIE was 1984 or 1986,and the Secret Wars were sometime later.Years and dates would be welcome.

But i think that the COIE was a bigger success.But i may be wrong.

secret wars was before coie, 1984-1985, crisis came out in 1985. They really weren't similar at all, as one was self contained limited series which had effects on a couple of titles (most notably ff--she-hulk taking over for thing, spidey-introduction of venom, x-men-colossus/kitty break up, addition of lockheed the dragon) but nothing like crisis which basically rebooted most of their major titles and erased from continuity up to 40 years of stories.

[DDM]

I had heard about this,but not often.The exact years im not really sure..i belive that the original COIE was 1984 or 1986,and the Secret Wars were sometime later.Years and dates would be welcome.

But i think that the COIE was a bigger success.But i may be wrong.

Crisis On Infinite Earths has been in working stages since 1981. Marvel had heard about DC's upcoming Crisis On Infinite Earths which was released in time for DC's 50th Anniversary in 1985-1986; therefore, Marvel tried to upstage DC by releasing Secret Wars #1-12 a year earlier in 1984.

Yes, Crisis On Infinite Earths had more drastic effects than Marvel's Secret Wars ever did.

[XPac]

Secret Wars was certainly not a rip-off of COIE. Aside from being a crossover with lots of heroes they really have almost NOTHING in common.

Was COIE more sucessful? Depends on how you guage sucess I suppose. It certainly had a more lasting effect in DC. Personally, it's my belief that because DC didn't do it right the first time with so many different writers not on the same page they irrevicobly screwed up DCU's continuity for decades and decades to come.

[Will.S]

Secret Wars was certainly not a rip-off of COIE. Aside from being a crossover with lots of heroes they really have almost NOTHING in common.

Was COIE more sucessful? Depends on how you guage sucess I suppose. It certainly had a more lasting effect in DC. Personally, it's my belief that because DC didn't do it right the first time with so many different writers not on the same page they irrevicobly screwed up DCU's continuity for decades and decades to come.
Yeah, which leaded to Infinite Crisis and OYL while Marvel is pretty much chugging along fine after all those years barring some of the X-stuff and Black Panther.

[josh straightedge]

I had heard about this,but not often.The exact years im not really sure..i belive that the original COIE was 1984 or 1986,and the Secret Wars were sometime later.Years and dates would be welcome.

But i think that the COIE was a bigger success.But i may be wrong.

I may be wrong, but on a financial level, Secret Wars was huge. Especially with the toy line and the fact they put an issue with the toys.(I still may be wrong.)

But COIE had a more long-term effect and has still been a major influence on DC storytelling while all you really got out of SW was the symbiote costume that became Venom, not that I'm complaining...

[Giant Guy]

My understanding is that Secret Wars was created to go along with the toy line and that was the main reason for it. Mattel lost the Super Powers bid to Kenner and decided to do a Marvel line of action figures. Working with Marvel they decided it was a good idea to have a cross promotion Secret Wars Comic Book where all the characters from the toy line could be found in one place. Shooter then took it upon himself to make it count and wrote what we know as Secret Wars.

Crisis was a different beast - it was originally supposed to be the History fo the DC Universe but then with Wolfman working on it turned it into a housecleaning for the DC universe. Totally different.

The History fo the DC Universe was int he works for a long time prior to Crisis. Crisis however was not.

Of the 2 series Secret Wars is the most fan friendly. I read both right when I started collecting and despite knowing way more about the DC characters I was totally lost. Secret Wars had me right from the start.

[Tommy]

Crisis On Infinite Earths has been in working stages since 1981. Marvel had heard about DC's upcoming Crisis On Infinite Earths which was released in time for DC's 50th Anniversary in 1985-1986; therefore, Marvel tried to upstage DC by releasing Secret Wars #1-12 a year earlier in 1984.

Yes, Crisis On Infinite Earths had more drastic effects than Marvel's Secret Wars ever did.
Once more I would like evidence of any of this.

[Capt USA]

Once more I would like evidence of any of this.

evidence of what?

that crisis had more impact, that is unquestionable, crisis impact was huge secret wars was basically small things. I mean crisi re-launched re-did supermans origin, he was less powerful, his parents were alive, he was never superboy, mr mzxylicz powers were changed, lex luthor was completly revamped etc.

or are you doubting that crisis was in the works longer? as mentioned the monitor was introduced in 1982

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitor_%28comics%29

and he was always intended to be the catalyst for crisis.

[Tommy]

evidence of what? as mentioned the monitor was introduced in 1982

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitor_%28comics%29

and he was always intended to be the catalyst for crisis.
No, he wasn't. His first appearances, according to Marv Wolfman himself, were basically because Wolfman had created the character for a Crisis style event, but he didn't think he would be allowed to do it. So he used the character as a villain in Teen Titans.

The evidence I am looking for is actual EVIDANCE that Crisis had something to do with Secret Wars besides speculation.

[Capt USA]

No, he wasn't. His first appearances, according to Marv Wolfman himself, were basically because Wolfman had created the character for a Crisis style event, but he didn't think he would be allowed to do it. So he used the character as a villain in Teen Titans.

The evidence I am looking for is actual EVIDANCE that Crisis had something to do with Secret Wars besides speculation.

I really doubt there is going to be true evidence, I mean would shooter actually say "dc had announced crisis so we decided to beat them to the punch and come out with our own crossover"

of course not.

[xakko]

IIRC, the three major results of Secrets Wars on continuity was Ben Grimm leaving the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man getting the black costume (and the resulting Venom storyline), and Colossus breaking up with Kitty Pryde.

If Marvel were to kill off Venom, they will have completely erased all long term effects.

[Tommy]

I really doubt there is going to be true evidence, I mean would shooter actually say "dc had announced crisis so we decided to beat them to the punch and come out with our own crossover"

of course not.
On the other hand he has come out and said "DC launched a successful toy line. We were attempting to copy that with our own toy line. And Secret Wars was a vehicle to do that."

[StoneGold]

Here is the real question though... because DC is doing a crossover, Marvel is not allowed? Shouldn't DC not be allowed to do a crossover then, since the whole genre basically started either with the Avengers/Defenders War or Contest of Champions? Or if you really want to get snarky, Sub-Mariner and the Human Torch tearing it up back in Marvel Mystery Comics 8-9? Since that was the original, original comics crossover.