Alexander DID make a mistake!

[Joe Acro]

There was a thread started not that long ago discussing that Alexander Luther hadn't represented all of the major Earths in his machine. Well, I want to prove that he didn't. The Ray is not from Earth X. He is a secod generation character introduced after the first Crisis. There once was a Ray that had been from Earth X, but I cannot recall what became of him. More than likely, he simply stopped being a superhero. So, if the device needed to function off representatives of each planet, Alexander failed. Every other member on the contraption was, at one time, on a different planet. So, instead of being a representative of Earth X, The Ray represents the current DC Earth...something else not accounted for if The Ray is supposed to be considered Earth X. If the device didn't need someone strictly from the current universe, which it presumably didn't, then we still lack one person. What Alexander should have needed was either Uncle Sam (doubtful, considering he could just stranded the host body to force the machine to not work) or, more likely, The Human Bomb, those two having been the only two current members of the Freedom Fighters that had visited Earth X.

[lazykarateguy]

I'm pretty sure theres a throw away line in either the third or forth issue stating that somehow the Ray had managed to genetically pass on the correct vibrational frequency to his son (the current Ray that was in the first issue of Crisis)

[Choppa]

Yeah there is, sorry to burst your bubble.

[jadegiant77]

That's true. Geoff Johns also stated in Wizard that if the universes hadn't been merged, Ray would have been born on Earth X(wait, he said Breach would have been born on Earth -8....um...). But yeah, he has some Earth X energy signature from his pops.

[Joe Acro]

Well, he can't say for certain that the current Ray would have been born on Earth X. The original Freedom Fighters (Pre-Crisis) were from Earth-2. So, the original Ray could have raised a family there. Also, wouldn't The Human Bomb or Uncle Sam have given a stronger signature? If so, why not use them? What advantage is there for using The Ray? (Although, I'm not even sure having a trace of something that never existed within the timeline is possible unless you travel through a different timeline.

[jadegiant77]

Johns used the Ray cuz he really liked the character and wanted to spare him from the Freedom Fighters massacre in IC#1.

[Joe Acro]

Wow. That's one of the worst ideas for using a character for something so important that I've ever heard. "I didn't want him to die." Well, why kill the Freedom Fighters at all? I could easily have seen Black Adam and Sinestro doing a scoop of The Ray, by scoop, I mean just flying by and grabbing him. So far, the Society hadn't done anything openly violent or ruthless. Why the change? Does it just boil down to Johns wanting them to die? It isn't like their deaths have had much impact. Ooo, a brief mention in issue two and a riling of Perry White, the latter of which isn't that hard to do. If you can't tell, I'm bitter. The Human Bomb was one of my favorite characters in the DCU.

[Sabrinaset]

If you're really looking for logic, IC may not be the best place for you right now...! :)

[Wannabe]

Wow. That's one of the worst ideas for using a character for something so important that I've ever heard. "I didn't want him to die." Well, why kill the Freedom Fighters at all? I could easily have seen Black Adam and Sinestro doing a scoop of The Ray, by scoop, I mean just flying by and grabbing him. So far, the Society hadn't done anything openly violent or ruthless. Why the change? Does it just boil down to Johns wanting them to die? It isn't like their deaths have had much impact. Ooo, a brief mention in issue two and a riling of Perry White, the latter of which isn't that hard to do. If you can't tell, I'm bitter. The Human Bomb was one of my favorite characters in the DCU.


I totally agree with you there. All the Freedom Fighters had a huge amount of potential, and having them killed like that was a horrible decision.

[mohammedali]

Don't worry. I imaine they will be back in some form or another. DC never *really* kills anyone.

[Choppa]

Don't worry. I imaine they will be back in some form or another. DC never *really* kills anyone.

They dont!?! But I just threw out all of my Azrael comics!! Damnit!!

[joint venture]

Azrael - Jean Paul Valley, that one, hes dead too? crap!

I liked the Human Bomb a lot too.

IC isn't over so don't be bitter over somethin that has no definite resolution yet.

[PatrickG]

I think the real issue is that there were no Earth-X natives established so Johns (and Alexander) had to settle for "close enough".

Though I would have prefered to see Happy Terrill take that role.

[joint venture]

world war hero and star-reporter Langford "Happy" Terril? The first Ray is around? and what about Spitfire? is this character 'available' too? he's the current Ray's half-brother right?

i guess there are some other options too, johns just wanted the Ray to be the chosen one. i guess it's the most known.

[PatrickG]

I can't remember Happy showing up since his house blew up towards the end of Ray's old book. I can't imagine that would kill him and I've never heard anyone say he's dead. But I don't think he's been seen either.

[heystacy]

Don't worry. I imaine they will be back in some form or another. DC never *really* kills anyone.


I liked Phantom Lady. I'm glad Black Canary popped Deathstroke in the eye for that. The bastard.

[Apathy Boy]

Well, he can't say for certain that the current Ray would have been born on Earth X. The original Freedom Fighters (Pre-Crisis) were from Earth-2. So, the original Ray could have raised a family there. Also, wouldn't The Human Bomb or Uncle Sam have given a stronger signature? If so, why not use them? What advantage is there for using The Ray? (Although, I'm not even sure having a trace of something that never existed within the timeline is possible unless you travel through a different timeline.I'm assuming it's because Ray's a greater source of potential energy. After all, there's a reason why J'onn J'onzz was chosen as Earth-1 representative instead of, say, Jimmy Olsen.

[jadrax]

Don't worry. I imaine they will be back in some form or another. DC never *really* kills anyone.

As i understand it, the Freedom Fighters that were killed are Public Domain charicters, (The copyright has expired upon them,) allowing anyone to legaly use them, so DC may decide to leave them dead.

[xnef1025]

Nah, I doubt the Freedom Fighters are going to stay dead. They'll find a way to bring him back. The only people who stay dead in comics are Uncle Ben and Azrael(he's the new Bucky :p ).

[gorosaurus]

Well, he can't say for certain that the current Ray would have been born on Earth X. The original Freedom Fighters (Pre-Crisis) were from Earth-2. So, the original Ray could have raised a family there. Also, wouldn't The Human Bomb or Uncle Sam have given a stronger signature? If so, why not use them? What advantage is there for using The Ray? (Although, I'm not even sure having a trace of something that never existed within the timeline is possible unless you travel through a different timeline.
Actually, the Freedom Fighters were from Earth-X Before Crisis ( JLA 107-108, original series) Their Earth had Nazis winning WWII, and the JLA and JSA helped them overthrow the Nazis. The FF were retconned as current DC Earth 1940's heroes after Crisis, while certain heroes who had modern-day counterparts like Batman, Green Arrow, etc, were wiped out of continuity. This happened in the pages of All-Star Squadron.

[TommyV]

I liked Phantom Lady. I'm glad Black Canary popped Deathstroke in the eye for that. The bastard.

Did this really happen? I can't recall it - and boy would that scene make me happy. Was it in IC, or BoP, or JLA? Black Canary gets around! :)

Also, aren't the Freedom Fighters getting a mini after IC? Perhaps they will be new guys rallying around Uncle Sam and the Ray (although I have a feeling the Ray may show up in a different team book).

[Joker2503]

I liked the Human Bomb a lot too.

I did to, but you can't deny that his death at the hands of Bizarro was pretty damn well done.

[heystacy]

Did this really happen? I can't recall it - and boy would that scene make me happy. Was it in IC, or BoP, or JLA? Black Canary gets around! :)

Also, aren't the Freedom Fighters getting a mini after IC? Perhaps they will be new guys rallying around Uncle Sam and the Ray (although I have a feeling the Ray may show up in a different team book).


Bop # 90. Canary got him good and told him that was for Phantom Lady.

[titanfan]

BOP #90 was really good. A solid Deathstroke vs. the Birds battle--that did a good job of making 'Stroke seem like the badass he was, but at the same time didn't make the heroes look stupid like in IC.

New heroes could easily take up the mantle of Phantom Lady and Human Bomb. Phantom Lady came from a women's spy school being run by Sandra Knight. Those "Human Bomb" rings were being used in Seven Soldiers, right? (What if one of them works?) And Uncle Sam can't be killed as long as America is around.

[Joe Acro]

Actually, the Freedom Fighters were from Earth-X Before Crisis ( JLA 107-108, original series) Their Earth had Nazis winning WWII, and the JLA and JSA helped them overthrow the Nazis. The FF were retconned as current DC Earth 1940's heroes after Crisis, while certain heroes who had modern-day counterparts like Batman, Green Arrow, etc, were wiped out of continuity. This happened in the pages of All-Star Squadron.

I think you need to check your facts. I will quote from page 26 of the Oct. 85 (Fatal Five-Garguax) Who's Who. "The Freedom Fighters are a team of super-heroes originally organized by a mysterious figure called Uncle Sam to help battl the Axis powers on Earth-X, a parallel world with no native super-heroes. In the summer of 1941, Uncle Sam discovered he could mentally create an interdimensional vortex through which he could travel to Earth-X. Learning that the warring Axis powers were achieving greater success on Earth-X than on his own Earth, Uncle Sam recruited other mystery men to accompany him to Earth-X... In February 1942, Uncle Sam took Mid-night and Doll Man back to Earth-2."

[Joe Acro]

I did to, but you can't deny that his death at the hands of Bizarro was pretty damn well done.

I disagree. Superman is thrust back by explosions, unless he can cradle the bomb between his arms and his chest. Despite the fact that Bizarro is slightly more powerful, I don't see why he can ignore the same laws of inertia, momentum, and velocity that Superman is affected by.

[Joe Acro]

Those "Human Bomb" rings were being used in Seven Soldiers, right? (What if one of them works?) And Uncle Sam can't be killed as long as America is around.

Just so you know, we can't say for sure that the Seven Soldiers thing is in continuity. Also, even if it is and the rings do work, it wouldn't be the same. Roy Lincoln obtained his powers by ingesting an explosive formula called "27-QRX."

[Gingold]

Just so you know, we can't say for sure that the Seven Soldiers thing is in continuity. Also, even if it is and the rings do work, it wouldn't be the same. Roy Lincoln obtained his powers by ingesting an explosive formula called "27-QRX."

Seven Soldiers is most certainly in continuity. But those rings were TNT and Dyna-Mite rings, not Human Bomb rings. But hey, it's tough to keep track of all of DC's golden age exploding superheroes.

[Gingold]

Oh yeah, DC has already announced a new Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters miniseries coming out this summer. The preview art looks like it includes the Ray, a new(?) Human Bomb, a new Doll Man, a new Phantom Lady, and it looks like the Black Condor has been turned into a bunch of guys with guns. So the characters will survive in some capacity.

[Joe Acro]

Whatever happened to the old Doll Man? And how do we know that this "new" Phantom Lady isn't just Sandra Knight re-adopting the role? (Which I have absolutely no problem with.)

[bfrank]

I think you need to check your facts. I will quote from page 26 of the Oct. 85 (Fatal Five-Garguax) Who's Who. "The Freedom Fighters are a team of super-heroes originally organized by a mysterious figure called Uncle Sam to help battl the Axis powers on Earth-X, a parallel world with no native super-heroes. In the summer of 1941, Uncle Sam discovered he could mentally create an interdimensional vortex through which he could travel to Earth-X. Learning that the warring Axis powers were achieving greater success on Earth-X than on his own Earth, Uncle Sam recruited other mystery men to accompany him to Earth-X... In February 1942, Uncle Sam took Mid-night and Doll Man back to Earth-2."
you need to check your facts...he is correct, and you are speaking of the ret-conned version....

[DCKar2nist]

So far, the Society hadn't done anything openly violent or ruthless

Thats what I dont get, Alexander and Superboy Prime are 100x more viloent/ruthless then the Society.

Despite the fact that Bizarro is slightly more powerful

I've heard this before, is there a comic I missed explaing that fact? I was always under the assumption that he was an imperfect clone of Superman...

[Joe Acro]

you need to check your facts...he is correct, and you are speaking of the ret-conned version....

Um...why would it be ret-conned? The Who's Who were published either right after or alongside Crisis. Why would anyone change the history of something that doesn't exist anymore?

[Joe Acro]

I've heard this before, is there a comic I missed explaing that fact? I was always under the assumption that he was an imperfect clone of Superman...

I'm kind of like you, having not real knowledge on the subject. However, I'm relying on information I've seen in other threads. Someone said that there was an issue where the two switched bodies and Superman said he felt more powerful. It has also been stated that this may be due to Bizarro's origin being magic-based.

[bfrank]

Um...why would it be ret-conned? The Who's Who were published either right after or alongside Crisis. Why would anyone change the history of something that doesn't exist anymore?

uh, that's why you should check your facts, the JLA story and ASS were published before crisis....hence, ret-con....

[bfrank]

I'm kind of like you, having not real knowledge on the subject. However, I'm relying on information I've seen in other threads. .
that explains it....

[Joe Acro]

My comment about relying on information in other threads was strictly related to the Bizarro/Superman comments about power-level. Everything else I've stated I can back up. Now, back to this whole "ret-conned" thing. It says on tha very same page in the Who's Who that Harbinger (a character strictly for Crisis) "opened an interdimensional rift through which many other mystery men journeyed from Earth-2 to Earth-X, including Doll Man, the Human Bomb, Phantom Lady, Midnight, and Plastic Man." Are you going to tell me Plastic Man is from Earth-X? Hourman was in the first group of people Uncle Sam took with him to Earth-X. Is he from Earth-X as well?

[bfrank]

My comment about relying on information in other threads was strictly related to the Bizarro/Superman comments about power-level. Everything else I've stated I can back up. Now, back to this whole "ret-conned" thing. It says on tha very same page in the Who's Who that Harbinger (a character strictly for Crisis) "opened an interdimensional rift through which many other mystery men journeyed from Earth-2 to Earth-X, including Doll Man, the Human Bomb, Phantom Lady, Midnight, and Plastic Man." Are you going to tell me Plastic Man is from Earth-X? Hourman was in the first group of people Uncle Sam took with him to Earth-X. Is he from Earth-X as well?
no, because neither plastic man nor the hourman were members of the FF prior to this RET-CON in A.S.S....

[Joe Acro]

How could there have been a ret-con and the Who's Who, which came out after it, not mention? No handbook is that flawed.

[bfrank]

How could there have been a ret-con and the Who's Who, which came out after it, not mention? No handbook is that flawed.
because regardless of what who's who said, you can not get rid of the original story in the JLA, which said that the FF were from Earth x....unless you have a.....drum roll....RET-CON....

[Paul Newell]

Before this goes any further, the Freedom Fighters that appeared in DC were retconned twice.

The original Quality Comics characters never formed the Freedom Fighters and the war ended in 1945 with the surrender of Germany and Japan.

When they appeared in JLoA they were retconned into being a team that fought on an Earth where the axis forces won....Then retconned in All-Star Squadron into coming from Earth-2 originally and travelling over to Earth-X to prevent Pearl Harbour from happening. Both retcons happened Pre-Crisis.

[Gingold]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, byt AFAIK, the Freedom Fighters, in their DC incarnations, were original established as being natives of Earth X. I believe that Roy Thomas came up with the "FFers were originallly from Earth 2" idea when Crisis originally called for the Post Crisis DCU to be left with two Earths (E1 and E2), as a way of having the characters survive. But the ultimate resolution of Crisis changed midway through, and Thomas's retconning became an exercise in futility.

Who's Who wouldn't mention a retcon having happened, because at that point, it was now the established history of the DCU that the FFers came from Earth 2. It doesn't change the fact that it was a retcon.

[Paul Newell]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, byt AFAIK, the Freedom Fighters, in their DC incarnations, were original established as being natives of Earth X. I believe that Roy Thomas came up with the "FFers were originallly from Earth 2" idea when Crisis originally called for the Post Crisis DCU to be left with two Earths (E1 and E2), as a way of having the characters survive. But the ultimate resolution of Crisis changed midway through, and Thomas's retconning became an exercise in futility.

Is that appear in the memorandums from the Absolute Crisis Compendium? I haven't read that yet. Very interesting.

[Gingold]

Is that appear in the memorandums from the Absolute Crisis Compendium? I haven't read that yet. Very interesting.

I haven't read the compendium. I have a recollection of reading this information somewhere, though I can't remember where- I could very well be wrong.

[Paul Newell]

I'll have a look...Roy Thomas really threw himself into the suggestion process and I've been slowly making my way through the memo's and haven't finished that section yet.

[jadehorde]

I disagree. Superman is thrust back by explosions, unless he can cradle the bomb between his arms and his chest. Despite the fact that Bizarro is slightly more powerful, I don't see why he can ignore the same laws of inertia, momentum, and velocity that Superman is affected by.

On the other hand, with superspeed and flight...a bomb that wasn't powerful enough to actually hurt, may not throw a Superman class being back.

[PatrickG]

no, because neither plastic man nor the hourman were members of the FF prior to this RET-CON in A.S.S....

Earth X itself is a bloody retcon.

If you accept the idea of the Freedom Fighters on a parallel earth, denying they're from Earth-2 is cherry-picking your retcons.

[PatrickG]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, byt AFAIK, the Freedom Fighters, in their DC incarnations, were original established as being natives of Earth X. I believe that Roy Thomas came up with the "FFers were originallly from Earth 2" idea when Crisis originally called for the Post Crisis DCU to be left with two Earths (E1 and E2), as a way of having the characters survive. But the ultimate resolution of Crisis changed midway through, and Thomas's retconning became an exercise in futility.

Who's Who wouldn't mention a retcon having happened, because at that point, it was now the established history of the DCU that the FFers came from Earth 2. It doesn't change the fact that it was a retcon.

How does being a retcon make it any less "true"?

[bfrank]

How does being a retcon make it any less "true"?

it doesn't...the point is that the FF were ret coned to being from earth 2...if that is a ret con, of a ret con, so be it, however, it is still the "truth"....

[Paul Newell]

it doesn't...the point is that the FF were ret coned to being from earth 2...if that is a ret con, of a ret con, so be it, however, it is still the "truth"....
A truth Pre-Crisis at least. ;)

[bfrank]

A truth Pre-Crisis at least. ;)
i know you're loking, but it is a truth post crisis as well: see Donna Troy and Garfield and the Doom Patrol....the multiverse "did" exisit.....