Black Superheroes

[maczero]

Is it me, or do many of Marvel's most prominent Black superheroes have shady pasts?

Off the top of my head:
Luke Cage
Storm
Falcon
Rocket Racer
Prowler

All these guys and probably several others have all been on the wrong side of the law before becoming heroes. I'm not saying it's blatant racism, but with so few black heroes it's got me wondering why Marvel gave these characters criminal pasts.

[Gaz]

Wasn't Cage falsely imprisoned?
And I'm not sure if Storm's really counts, seeing as it was a "steal or starve" thing.

[Chiasm]

Bishop
Black Panther
Jim Rhodes (War Machine)

Three off the top of my head that don't have shady pasts.

[maczero]

Wasn't Cage falsely imprisoned?
And I'm not sure if Storm's really counts, seeing as it was a "steal or starve" thing.I know he was falsely imprisoned, but prior to that wasn't he a gang member.

[Tommy]

The main thing is that virtually all of Marvel's characters have shady pasts any more.

Here is a list of some X-men who were on the wrong side of the law:

Banshee (Terrorist)
Dazzler (Fugitive)
Gambit (Thief)
Jubilee (Thief)
Juggernaut (Thief and property destruction)
Marrow (Murderer)
Rouge (Terrorist)


Oddly enough Emma Frost has always been on the right side of the law.

[maczero]

The main thing is that virtually all of Marvel's characters have shady pasts any more.I'd be willing to bet the ratio of black superheroes with criminal pasts is a lot higher than the ratio for white heroes.

And what is Marrow's ethnicity?

[Crash-Man]

Marrow is white.

And Maczero, are you honestly wondering why this situation exists, or are you raising a rhetorical question to start a discussion?

[CaptainAwesome]

What about Monica Rambeau? Did she have a shady past? I know she was one time head of the avengers. Thats pretty good.

[maczero]

Marrow is white.

And Maczero, are you honestly wondering why this situation exists, or are you raising a rhetorical question to start a discussion?I'm wondering why this situation exists. I was thumbing through a Capt. America trade today and learned that the Falcon had a criminal past. I just started thinking that Sam, Luke and Storm are probably among Marvel's most well known black heroes and they all have criminal pasts. Just makes me wonder why Marvel went this route with their origins.

[Capt USA]

I think shady past for black characters is kinda a hook for the writers use to make their characters not trust or be 'more realistic' but there are tons of non shady past characters

I mean Rage(he was just a kid, never in a gang), Black Panther, probably brother voodoo(don't know his origin) and even some of the spider characters who aren't good guys don't really have a shady past, such as slyde and cardiac. add in black goliath(who I think doesn't have a shady past) Battlestar, and there are still several handfuls of black characters who don't have shady past, but I agree with the sentiment that the percentage is a lot higher than it is for white characters.


a lot of it exists because many of these characters were created in the 70's and that was the height of blackploitation characterization.

[ednemo]

Originally Falcon was a social worker. Then he was retconned. I think they give the characters like this the background because it promotes the idea that you can come from a harsh background and redeem yourself. Of course if you want a black superhero that comes from a privileged background you can always read Quantum and Woody. Or Black Panther...though I would suggest waiting for a new writer that cares a bit about continuity to come back. Or even better, read Priest's run. His stuff was pretty top notch.

[DDM]

I'd be willing to bet the ratio of black superheroes with criminal pasts is a lot higher than the ratio for white heroes.

And what is Marrow's ethnicity?

Hawkeye, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver all have criminal records before they reformed to become champions as beloved Avengers. Likewise, Rogue reformed to become a member of the X-Men.

All of these characters are white.

Misty Knight does not have a criminal past, but she remains a hero as one-half of the Daughters of the Dragon. Knight also dated Daniel Rand (Iron Fist).

I think you're reaching to say the writers must be "racist" to give all of their black characters shady pasts. It just screams of victimazation from your part. The victimization thing gets old real quick.

[Izsak Loudon]

I think shady past for black characters is kinda a hook for the writers use to make their characters not trust or be 'more realistic' but there are tons of non shady past characters...

...a lot of it exists because many of these characters were created in the 70's and that was the height of blackploitation characterization.Right.

Christopher Priest (http://phonogram.us/comics/frames/powerfist.htm) talked about this (of which, I wholeheartedly agree with)... I can't speak to the motives of the white writers who've handled Cage in the heady blaxploitation days of the early 1970's, but, as a reader, most of that work seemed disingenuous, having not much in the way of anything that was true to my experience as a black youth in America. The larger body of work in mainstream super-hero comics is written by whites, and the larger body of African or African-American characters bear not much resemblance to any real black culture. A great deal of it is an appropriation of black culture and voice; it seems to be what white people think black people are. It's more amusing than offensive, but, taken at face value, black society in comic books seems an almost invented culture, as made up as Smallville or the Legion of Super-Heroes' headquarters, sewn together by glimpses of television shows or movies. Black culture as represented by Sherman Helmsley or Jimmy Walker or Richard Roundtree. It's an RPG universe subset Black People, with a list of rules and hair styles and speech patterns, invented for the game, but bearing little resemblance to any actual culture.

I think what truly annoys me is that this still goes on. Before I write Ultron, I ask half a dozen people for as much info as I can get on the character, so I can be as accurate as I can about it. But, when many white writers attempt to write black culture, something I would imagine carries a bit more social risk than, say, Ultron, it seems as if few inquiries are made, and the research may begin and end with glimpses of BET.

I certainly believe white writers can write black characters. I think it works much better when they stop writing black characters, and just write characters, imbuing them with as much energy and verve as they do white characters, and don't worry about appropriating a "black voice" or the RPG universe subset of attributes. Just relax and have fun and don't worry about that other stuff.And ultimately, for me at least, and there is much truth in this, from his essay: "The Last Time Priest Discussed The Viability of Black Characters (http://phonogram.us/comics/adventures/frames/chips3.htm)"...Comic books have traditionally had a limited appeal to minorities because we see so little truth in them, so very little of who we are. Inaccurate and transparently indifferent approaches, exploitative rip-offs and, at best, well-meaning cluelessness.That's the clincher right there for me!

Most white writers mean well, but ultimately, most don't have a clue. And worse, some don't even care.

Case in point, from "Papa Midnite," that I was talking about in the other thread (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=2715918#post2715918)..."I'm a 'Hellblazer' fan, too, and I'm black, and I was always disappointed with Midnite, particularly his original incarnation," admitted Johnson. "I have an immense amount of respect for Alan Moore and the 'Hellblazer' writers come and gone, but to me Midnite was this two dimensional archaic black stereotype- the Noble Savage. Wearing a grass skirt like out of a 1930s Tarzan movie, with a top hat and tails over his naked body just to emphasize through contrast how primitive he was, how uncivilized, how less than human. I love the series so I wanted him to be a fuller character, not just a racist fantasy.

"I tried to make this character more human, give him motivation that, while not always benevolent, are understandable," continued Johnson. "And I tried to add to the idea of his power as well. In comics, Voodoo, or Voodon, is often dismissed as an evil, inferior religion/magic. I want to reveal more about what it is: an amalgamation of ancient West African religion, particular from the Yoruba and Akan peoples. What we see today is still a leftover of the idea that if something is African, or black, it is corrupt and inferior.And not to suggest that the Great Alan Moore doesn't care, but... well, just saying...

Heh...Or even better, read Priest's run. His stuff was pretty top notch. And yeah, no matter how good people say it was, still no one bought it. Heh. Kinda sad, huh.

Heh...I think you're reaching to say the writers must be "racist" to give all of their black characters shady pasts. It just screams of victimazation from your part. The victimization thing gets old real quick....yeah, if you agree with Christopher Priest, and myself, most are just well-meaning, but ultimately clueless... then, and today.

And I say, some just flat-out don't really care.

Stan Lee cared though, I feel.

Heh. That's why he's "The Man." :D

[CaptainAwesome]

Y'know its funny. Yes you can say that a lot of black characters have shady pasts, but just think about popular culture nowadays. In the music industry rappers all claim to be criminals. Most songs have to be about being a "gangsta" or some other criminal activity. Even your avatar, maczero, is Reily from the Boondocks. He constantly has fantasies about being a crime boss. Its not some sort of latent racism in comics, just that its very common for black people in popular cultre to be represented in a criminal light, by all races. Its not actually true but thats what sells.

[Expletive Deleted]

Talk about comic books, not about each other.

Thanks.

Your Mod,

ED

[zeraze1]

Or Black Panther...though I would suggest waiting for a new writer that cares a bit about continuity to come back.

I wouldn't: Hudlin's run is pretty cool simply because he gets the essence of the character, which reels in readers far more than continuity minutiae

Beside, a Priest Panther fan, comic writer Brandon Thomas, keeps it all in perspective as shown by his critique of the current Hudlin story line:

A few things to consider, chief among them, an army of ninjas that have attacked Panther and Luke Cage, for some unknown purpose. But as clever as the actual rationale is, all you really need to know is verbalized by two amazed onlookers, after the brawl spills out of Cage’s safe house, and into the street-

“Yo, dude is nice against those ninjas.”
“For real, though.”

That sentiment propels Hudlin’s latest installment in the front end, with a guest appearance by Shang Chi and his villainous father, who wants to make T’Challa an incredible offer, closing things out. There are a host of cool bits throughout, like Cage complaining about the ninjas trashing the couch that holds a fond memory, or Panther insinuating that Iron Fist is hatin’ on Shang Chi, and his “master of kung fu” ranking. Hudlin is really finding his voice in recent months, blending the attitude, with the humor, and ultimately smoothing out the characterizations so they vibe with what’s come before, while standing on their own merits. End of the day, despite my initial hesitation at the scope of this revamp, Hudlin has a respect for the title character that’s clearly undeniable, and that’s the most important aspect of any potentially successful run. And it’s something he shared with Priest, who many fans, including yours truly, insists on comparing his work to. Work that’s gradually increasing in strength, and should lead to a very interesting summer event, a royal wedding in the middle of civil war. Can’t wait.


Read the rest of the review here:

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/ambi/113637109794603.htm

Or even better, read Priest's run. His stuff was pretty top notch.

The sad irony is that Priest's brilliant, more "continuity obedient" run was still ignored by comic fans and retailers.

Say much about the industry, huh? Clearly, race and popularity matter far more that how knowledgable a creator is of continuity.

zeraze

[Izsak Loudon]

Y'know its funny. Yes you can say that a lot of black characters have shady pasts, but just think about popular culture nowadays. In the music industry rappers all claim to be criminals. Most songs have to be about being a "gangsta" or some other criminal activity. Even your avatar, maczero, is Reily from the Boondocks. He constantly has fantasies about being a crime boss. Its not some sort of latent racism in comics, just that its very common for black people in popular cultre to be represented in a criminal light, by all races. Its not actually true but thats what sells.And yeah, like ED said, this is off-topic, and it might be best served in a thread on the Music board... but (rhetorically, if you like) why do you think that the most negative aspects of black culture is what sells?

Positive Hip-Hop is classed as, of all things, "alternative" Hip-Hop?

Something that's positive, and has a positive message is classed as "alternative." Not mainstream.

Mainstream is "bustin' caps and flippin' switches, and big booty b*tches."

That's what sells. And who is the biggest audience for gangsta rap? Who buys most of this stuff? Who is this most entertaining to? :(

But yeah, this is probably best served on the Music board.

Heh. Of course, with that said, I love the hell out of "The Boondocks (http://www.sonypictures.com/tv/shows/boondocks/)!" :D

That's by far the funniest show on TV to me (and new episode tonight at 11:00, I guess). But it's laugh-out-loud funny to me. Most comedies are kind of chuckle-worthy, or "Oh, yeah, I get it." "Boondocks" is funny as hell to me, though. :D

And I love the comic strip too... better even, because it's more topical.

Anyway, back on topic...

EDIT: Oh, and "The Boondocks" comic strip (which was first), and show, is created by Aaron McGruder, a black person. So the distinction there, as opposed to most comics is... he's knows what's going on when it comes to black people.

And with that, back to the topic at hand...

[abyss]

I cant think of:

Ageis
Alex Wilder
Bishop
Black Goliath
Black Panther
Blade
The Blur
Brother Voodoo
Luke Cage
Pulsar (Monica Rambeau)
Clock
Deathlock (Michael Collins)
Falcon
Hybrid
M
Maggott
Night Thrasher
Nighthawk
Nightwatch
Prodigy
Prowler
Rage
Rocket Racer
Silhouette (bi-racaial)
Storm
Synch
Triathlon
War Machine
Sunspot
Gateway
Shard
Greystone
G.W. Bridge
Chord
Sproket
Justice
Patriot
Misty Knight
Windshear
Tag
Suicide Man
White Tiger (bi-racial)
St. Croix Twins
Aransnist
Charcoal
Angel
Threnody
Hub
Cecillia Reyers
Thunderbird III
Midnights Fire (bi-racial)
Hollowpoint Ninja

And im sure im missing quite a few still.

[Izsak Loudon]

And im sure im missing quite a few still.I think he's talking about prominent black super heroes...Is it me, or do many of Marvel's most prominent Black superheroes have shady pasts? Heh. Yeah, prominent ones. :D

Not "every single black Marvel super hero that you can think of, dead or alive, A-list, B-list, C-List and D-list, little and/or no past, and having to have an encyclopedic knowledge of The Official Handbook of The Marvel Universe: Black Super Hero Edition" ones. :D

Prominent ones... ones that most people can name off the top of their head without having to wonder or not whether they should try and get a research grant first... ones. Heh.

[Maleficentogre]

My sig actually has a list of the majority of black comic book heroes. totally unofficial and totally fan made but it's pretty accurate as far as I can tell. I'm not arguing the topic because I yell about black heroes all the time.

[maczero]

a lot of it exists because many of these characters were created in the 70's and that was the height of blackploitation characterization.I thought this might be the reason with some of the older characters.

I don't really read a lot of mainstream Marvel anymore, but I'm wondering if this trend has continued. I feel we're sort of going through a second blaxploitation era (the current state of Hip-Hop) and I want to know if it's affecting the newest generation of black superheroes?

[Maleficentogre]

the newest greatest marvel black hero is shady but not because it's black, it's more of him trying to live up to his family's legacy. There aren't as many new black felon turned heroes out there now.

[Chocolove]

I don't really read a lot of mainstream Marvel anymore, but I'm wondering if this trend has continued. I feel we're sort of going through a second blaxploitation era (the current state of Hip-Hop) and I want to know if it's affecting the newest generation of black superheroes?

To be fair there aren't /that/ many 'new generation' heroes, but I can't think of any that would fall within the blaxploitation sphere. This is one of the reasons I found Alex Wilder refreshing as there was little 'black' about him, but that's what he is. As far as popular black heroes having shady pasts, well, to be fair, the most popular heroes in general are the senior characters with many being products of their time. Sure, there are always retcons, but changing a character's origin (not just an event in the past), is a pretty tall order.

[Reginald Hudlin]

I wouldn't: Hudlin's run is pretty cool simply because he gets the essence of the character, which reels in readers far more than continuity minutiae

Beside, a Priest Panther fan, comic writer Brandon Thomas, keeps it all in perspective as shown by his critique of the current Hudlin story line:

A few things to consider, chief among them, an army of ninjas that have attacked Panther and Luke Cage, for some unknown purpose. But as clever as the actual rationale is, all you really need to know is verbalized by two amazed onlookers, after the brawl spills out of Cage’s safe house, and into the street-

“Yo, dude is nice against those ninjas.”
“For real, though.”

That sentiment propels Hudlin’s latest installment in the front end, with a guest appearance by Shang Chi and his villainous father, who wants to make T’Challa an incredible offer, closing things out. There are a host of cool bits throughout, like Cage complaining about the ninjas trashing the couch that holds a fond memory, or Panther insinuating that Iron Fist is hatin’ on Shang Chi, and his “master of kung fu” ranking. Hudlin is really finding his voice in recent months, blending the attitude, with the humor, and ultimately smoothing out the characterizations so they vibe with what’s come before, while standing on their own merits. End of the day, despite my initial hesitation at the scope of this revamp, Hudlin has a respect for the title character that’s clearly undeniable, and that’s the most important aspect of any potentially successful run. And it’s something he shared with Priest, who many fans, including yours truly, insists on comparing his work to. Work that’s gradually increasing in strength, and should lead to a very interesting summer event, a royal wedding in the middle of civil war. Can’t wait.


Read the rest of the review here:

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/ambi/113637109794603.htm



The sad irony is that Priest's brilliant, more "continuity obedient" run was still ignored by comic fans and retailers.

Say much about the industry, huh? Clearly, race and popularity matter far more that how knowledgable a creator is of continuity.

zeraze

Wow, I had never read that Brandon Thomas article. Thanks for pointing that out!

www.hudlinentertainment.com

[Novaya Havoc]

The main thing is that virtually all of Marvel's characters have shady pasts any more.

Here is a list of some X-men who were on the wrong side of the law:

Dazzler (Fugitive)



She was also accused of murder, but acquitted. ;)

[Hi-Fi]

She was also accused of murder, but acquitted. ;)

How could you possible know they mentioned Dazzler in this thread??? :eek:



:D

[Nyssane]

How could you possible know they mentioned Dazzler in this thread??? :eek:



:D

It's his sixth sense.

[riotgear]

What about Monica Rambeau? Did she have a shady past? I know she was one time head of the avengers. Thats pretty good.

Monica Rambeau was a cop. She is currently a captain in the New Orleans Harbor Patrol.

Someone else mentioned Misty Knight. She was an officer in the Bomb Squad, which is how she lost her arm, if I recall.

Oh, and Abyss, I don't know if you can technically call Hollowpoint Ninja African-American, since he is/was an android/LMD.

[Dermie]

Monica Rambeau was a cop. She is currently a captain in the New Orleans Harbor Patrol.

When did that happen? Monica was a lieutenant in the Harbor Patrol, and she quit once she became Captain Marvel. For the last few years she has been running her own charter boating business.

[riotgear]

When did that happen? Monica was a lieutenant in the Harbor Patrol, and she quit once she became Captain Marvel. For the last few years she has been running her own charter boating business.

I don't remember exactly when it happened, but the first appearances as I can recall as a return to the Harbor Patrol since having her own business were in Avengers (vol.3) #16-18.

[Dermie]

I don't remember exactly when it happened, but the first appearances as I can recall as a return to the Harbor Patrol since having her own business were in Avengers (vol.3) #16-18.

You are mistaken--she was not in the Harbor Patrol in those issues; she was on her charter boat. She was thinking back to her days in the harbor partol, and in the Avengers, which is probably what mixed you up. :)

[Gargus]

Because isnt that the black americans dream of coming from a troubled past and rising up to be a positive icon to other blacks?

HOnestly though if you havent noticed thats how it goes in everything from tv shows, movies, comics and games to. Some black guy who becomes a hero has a bad background.

Oh wait...plenty of white people in these types of things have a troubled past also! So it isnt just black people in comics who have had a jail record.

Seriously though, its not a conspiracy or anything like that. Just one of those things people try and look way to hard into. And for the record cage is a crummy charcter "Hey look at me, Im black and have a bad disposistion towards authority and I hate racsim but am still able to make the occasional half hearted racist comment. Oh and my skin is bullet proof and Im strong......yay?"

[CAPWOLF]

I agree 100% I made this point a while ago.

If being honest there is no comparison...There are no DC characters that hold the staus level of the Black Panther or Storm. This could definitely be argued but I would submit that the respect T'challa receives in comics is almost on par with that given to Captain America. I would equate it to the amount or respect Jonn J'onnz receives in relation to Superman.But in spite of this, I am a black man who has been reading comics for 25 years and I feel I have the standing to attest that comics are no where near as diverse as they should be Blacks are severely underepresented and when they are(with few exceptions) they are characterized as more angry more sexually aggresive more violent and more criminal than their white counterparts. I stated a while ago in a Luke Cage thread that TOO many black superheroes had some sort of criminal origin or shady leanings. I pointed out that Luke Cage was a con, Prowler a thief, Falcon a thief,Cardiac a thief, Rocket Racer a thief, Storm was a thief,Battlestar a criminal the Savage Dragons girlfriend Rapture was a reformed prostitute, Shadowhawk had Aids even Black Panther began as an FF villain.Lets not forget that there was a Black avenger named RAGE!! of all things.
Night Thrasher, the aforementioned Rage, Bishop and the new Patriot are all depicted as the angry Black Man. John Stewart dates two women simultaneously in the Justice League cartoon. Luke Cage even had anal sex with Jessica Jones in Alias anal sex?. I challenge you to dispute that they would never allow a mainstream white super hero to be depicted in that fashion. Rights or wrongs of the act arent important at all. The point is, picture Spidey or Cap or Batman even someone as fringe as booster gold or Gilgamesh the forgotten one, being depicted in that fashion. IT AINT HAPPENING. I realize that this post has gone on longer that I intended but this is an issue that is near and dear to me. I hope that this post can shine a spotlight on situation for my friends who have never noticesd or cared. It is really depressing to see my people depicted in this way in my medium of choice. Things might change in the future but I dont see much of a difference from the 60's till now so I doubt it.

[Izsak Loudon]

Because isnt that the black americans dream of coming from a troubled past and rising up to be a positive icon to other blacks?Heh. No!

And no, not necessarily. And that's a stereotype. And a corny one. And, probably, one that people who don't know or care about black people would think is acceptable or appropriate.

And that's the problem.

What's wrong with a Huxtable background, like from "The Cosby Show?" And not to brag, but that's my background -- I'm a "Cosby Kid," I'm a "Huxtable." My parents have a little bit of money.

So why does it, or seem, and more often than not, that a black character has to have a troubled background? Why is that?HOnestly though if you havent noticed thats how it goes in everything from tv shows, movies, comics and games to. Some black guy who becomes a hero has a bad background.Right. And that's the problem.

Why is this negative aspect the norm. Why is it the "accepted," or "the what's expected?"Oh wait...plenty of white people in these types of things have a troubled past also! So it isnt just black people in comics who have had a jail record.True. But most of the prominent... white, super heroes aren't like that.

So why does it seem like that's the case with some/most of the most prominent black ones? Which was the subject of the thread.Seriously though, its not a conspiracy or anything like that. Just one of those things people try and look way to hard into.I doubt it's a conspiracy, either. Most... or some, writers just don't care when it comes to black characters, is what I (and others) say (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=2716642#post2716642). And of which, is, in a way, the topic of the thread. And for the record cage is a crummy charcter "Hey look at me, Im black and have a bad disposistion towards authority and I hate racsim but am still able to make the occasional half hearted racist comment. Oh and my skin is bullet proof and Im strong......yay?"And yeah, I think Cage is a bit of a joke too. :D

But, of course, that goes back to what I just said...

And yeah, you probably don't really see any problems with any of it, do you? And if not, it's fine. But at the same time, y'know, and not saying that you are, but you can't really try and belittle or diminish it just because you don't see it as a problem.

Some people see it, and step back and say "hey, what's this? What about this?" And industry professionals (Christopher Priest being one) see it? So, something's there, right?

After Stan Lee created the Black Panther and Joe "Robbie" Robertson (in Spider-Man)... it's kind of fallen off a little when it comes to black characters. Sure, there's been some over the years, but not many, if any, better than those two.

Hence, the thread.

EDIT: And just to add to what I said earlier about the prominent white super heroes:

Superman? Yeah, his planet blew-up. Heh. But it was a future world, and his father was a prominent scientist. And, of course, when he got to earth, he was raised by a kindly old couple, and had a wonderful childhood.

Batman? Yeah, his parents were killed. Heh. But then he got his inheritance and became a millionaire (or billionaire, depending on a retcon or whatever). So... y'know. :D

Wonder Woman? She comes from an island of goddesses, and she's a goddess herself, so...

Green Lantern? Jet pilot. Test pilot, whatever. He's cool. He's Paul Newman. He's "Top Gun."

The Fantastic Four? No problems there. Johnny's normal. Sue's normal. Ben's normal -- maybe rough background with the Yancy Street thing or whatever, but he flies space ships. And Reed's a genius.

Iron Man? Tony Starks' a genius, millionaire (or yeah, again, billionaire, depending on a retcon or whatever) and playboy... Heh. Okay, with a bad heart.

The Hulk? Dr. Bruce Banner was/is a genius.

Cap? Okay, you might have something there. But he wasn't a crook.

Spider-Man? He was nerd. But he wasn't a crook or a thief. He was just a nerd.

So... there you go.

And Cage... yeah, he's a reformed crook. It's like, what the hell? And he's the first black character to get his own solo title, and he's a reformed crook? The f*ck? :D

[Crash-Man]

Because isnt that the black americans dream of coming from a troubled past and rising up to be a positive icon to other blacks?

No.

It's generally accepted (by all races) as a noble journey, but that isn't some universal African-American dream.

And even if it were, these examples would all be simplistic, myopic metaphors anyway. A "troubled past" doesn't only mean "a rap sheet". It could be a struggle against poverty, parental abuse, social discrimination, disability etc. And crime isn't the only result of these challenges.

Neither is it an ideal metaphor for the "troubled past" of the African-American experience, since a criminal reaps the harvest of his personal choices, while marginalisation was never an option for African-Americans.

It's simply a result of stereotypical views of urban African-Americans. An unfortunate reality across all media, and not difficult to grasp, but one that's changing for the better, in my opinion.

[Izsak Loudon]

No.

It's generally accepted (by all races) as a noble journey, but that isn't some universal African-American dream.

And even if it were, these examples would all be simplistic, myopic metaphors anyway. A "troubled past" doesn't only mean "a rap sheet". It could be a struggle against poverty, parental abuse, social discrimination, disability etc. And crime isn't the only result of these challenges.

Neither is it an ideal metaphor for the "troubled past" of the African-American experience, since a criminal reaps the harvest of his personal choices, while marginalisation was never an option for African-Americans.

It's simply a result of stereotypical views of urban African-Americans. An unfortunate reality across all media, and not difficult to grasp, but one that's changing for the better, in my opinion.And we agree on something?

Heh. Get out.

And yours is worded more succinctly than mine, but still, we agree on something. :D

[32Cage]

There have been some excellent observations made on this thread. Certainly with the prevalence of message boards there is an effective vehicle for those disturbed by stereotypical images of minority characters to call it to the writers and publishers attention to seek redress. There are without question problems with the way many characters are portrayed. However i am pleased that progress is being made and it is up to us as readers to ensure that it continues. As consumers our silence will only be viewed as a sign of contentment. At the end of the day you usually get what you ask and pay for. :rolleyes:

[Wannabe]

Heh. No!

The Fantastic Four? No problems there. Johnny's normal. Sue's normal. Ben's normal -- maybe rough background with the Yancy Street thing or whatever, but he flies space ships. And Reed's a genius.




Ben was a little more than a little rough around the edges. He was a gang member. I'd have to say that's as bad as anything that Luke Cage has ever done.

Marvels most recognized black hero is Blade anyway, who, while commonly seen as a criminal in the eyes of the law, is not. He's a pure hero, fighting for what he thinks is right.

[Maleficentogre]

The reason all black heroes have the exact same origins is because writers write what they know, and seeing as how all these writers were white at the time their view of black people was probably that of thieves and drug dealers and prostitutes. yes some white character have bad backgrounds but look at the big name heroes. Captain America, Spidey, the fantastic four, Angel, Iceman, Cyclops, Marvel girl, beast, (<--those are the original x-men if you're confused), those are the guys marvel is made on. a bunch of upstanding white people with upstanding backgrounds. so that argument is null and void.

[StoneGold]

Originally Falcon was a social worker. Then he was retconned.
Not quite. First he was a mercenary turned island revolutionary. Then he was a social worker.

[zeraze1]

I agree 100% I made this point a while ago.

Cardiac a thief,

Cardiac is not a thief. He is a doctor and CEO who moonlights as a vigilante who exacts vengeance against white collar criminals who think they’re above the law. That's a pretty original motivation for a vigilante.

In an age plagued by Worldcom, Enron, and other corporate scandals, don’t you wish Cardiac was real?

Shadowhawk had Aids

I can’t believe you’re this ignorant. AIDS is a DISEASE not a indication of one’s morality.

Next, you’ll be demanding that diabetics be locked up.

even Black Panther began as an FF villain.

Panther was hardly a villain. He fought the FF to test his skills and determine if they were the honorable heroes as depicted in the media. The Panther/FF battle was basically a variation on the "superhero misunderstanding fight," a proud tradition in the genre.

Lets not forget that there was a Black avenger named RAGE!! of all things.
Night Thrasher, the aforementioned Rage, Bishop and the new Patriot are all depicted as the angry Black Man.

Though I agree with the other examples, Patriot’s anger was justified. He is upset that his grandfather, the original Captain America, doesn’t get as much respect from the U.S. government and its people as Steve Rogers has. Rogers agrees completely. Since meeting Rogers, Patriot doesn't have that chip on his shoulder.

The real issue is that some Black people are so self-conscious about the “angry Black man” stereotype that they forget that anger against injustice is a good thing. It’s anger beyond reason (e.g., gangbanging) that’s evil.

John Stewart dates two women simultaneously in the Justice League cartoon.

Though still having some feelings for Hawkgirl, John Stewart dates Vixen exclusively. Hawkgirl respects John’s decision.

So, Stewart is NOT a two-timer.

[quote] Luke Cage even had anal sex with Jessica Jones in Alias anal sex?.

Anal sex is more common among heterosexuals of every race than you think and thus wouldn’t be consider by modern American society to be that big a deal.

Now, by any major religion, premarital sex (fornication) is a sin so you can condemn Luke and Jessica on that point. But there are plenty of White superheroes guilty of fornication: Professor X, Wolverine, Green Arrow, Nightwing (Robin 1), Daredevil, etc.

The biggest shocker is SUPERMAN, who has engaged in premarital sex on film (Superman 2) and TV (Smallville).

So, I guess White superhero icons can engage in immoral behavior.

zeraze

[Capt USA]

I think the comment about cage is that it's actually being mentioned in the book, and you don't really see it mentioned in other books with white heroes.(with the exception of Electro who is a villain)

I mean with spiderman the sex was usually behind closed doors(who knows anymore, just going by the past) but we have a black character so lets make him more about sex or something to that affect.


I'm glad you brought up the misconception that was presented with Cardiac, yes he is on the wrong side of the law because of his methods, but he didn't have an evil past, he was driven bad because a company doesn't want to invest in developing a cure for a disease that killed his wife(?)(actually can't remember who it was that died)


I agree that on the whole there are a lot less noble backgrounds with white heroes than there are with black heroes(percentage wise) Give it time though as more black creators are coming into the industry they are getting the chance to make characters that more resemble their experiences instead of a caricatures based upon tv depiction of a black person. And once they start to make them with better backgrounds it will still take 10-15 years or so before they gain enough steam to be mainstream popular (with the exception of Spawn I guess)

[zeraze1]

The reason all black heroes have the exact same origins is because writers write what they know, and seeing as how all these writers were white at the time their view of black people was probably that of thieves and drug dealers and prostitutes.

No argument there. That's why you need not only more sensitive writers, Black or White, but also a greater number of Black superheroes who represent the diversity in the Black community.

On that note, Brandon Thomas wrote a column on this very issue. Here is an excerpt:

Read that one of the main reasons for Milestone’s eventual creation was an attempt to diffuse the “one size fits all” paradigm, that’s often applied to minority characters. Their relative scarcity prevents them from actually functioning as well-developed characters, instead positioning them as a sort of racial representative, their existence approximating an entire culture, for the lack of any alternative. With no contrast, it’s too easy for him to become all black men, for her to become all Asian women. The very obvious remedy for this is to consistently introduce more minority personalities into the respective universes, so there isn’t such a dependency on the treatment of one or two characters. The other possibility is that both company and creator approach what few examples of diversity they have with a bit more… caution is probably the best word. And yes, I realize exactly how that sounds, that character development should be in some way sacrificed for a presiding notion that because of their infrequency, certain characters can only function as shining beacons of morality and purity. Even I’m uncomfortable with an edict like that, but let’s speak in hypotheticals for just a few moments.

Read the full column here:

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/ambi/113087615979065.htm

yes some white character have bad backgrounds but look at the big name heroes. Captain America, Spidey, the fantastic four, Angel, Iceman, Cyclops, Marvel girl, beast, (<--those are the original x-men if you're confused), those are the guys marvel is made on. a bunch of upstanding white people with upstanding backgrounds. so that argument is null and void.

I hate break this to you but Thing was a gangmember and thus has a criminal past. No one wants to bring it up because Ben Grimm is an icon, but that doesn't make it less true.

BTW, you could make a great argument that Peter Parker is an accompice to murder. Think how Pete's Uncle Ben died and why.

zeraze

[zeraze1]

The reason all black heroes have the exact same origins is because writers write what they know, and seeing as how all these writers were white at the time their view of black people was probably that of thieves and drug dealers and prostitutes.

Actually, there are Black superheroes who don't fit the above stereotypes, but I agree that too many do because of White writers who've never been around many Black people. That's why you need not only more sensitive writers, Black or White, but also a greater number of Black superheroes who represent the diversity in the Black community.

On that note, Brandon Thomas wrote a column on this very issue. Here is an excerpt:

Read that one of the main reasons for Milestone’s eventual creation was an attempt to diffuse the “one size fits all” paradigm, that’s often applied to minority characters. Their relative scarcity prevents them from actually functioning as well-developed characters, instead positioning them as a sort of racial representative, their existence approximating an entire culture, for the lack of any alternative. With no contrast, it’s too easy for him to become all black men, for her to become all Asian women. The very obvious remedy for this is to consistently introduce more minority personalities into the respective universes, so there isn’t such a dependency on the treatment of one or two characters. The other possibility is that both company and creator approach what few examples of diversity they have with a bit more… caution is probably the best word. And yes, I realize exactly how that sounds, that character development should be in some way sacrificed for a presiding notion that because of their infrequency, certain characters can only function as shining beacons of morality and purity. Even I’m uncomfortable with an edict like that.

Read the full column here:

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/ambi/113087615979065.htm

yes some white character have bad backgrounds but look at the big name heroes. Captain America, Spidey, the fantastic four, Angel, Iceman, Cyclops, Marvel girl, beast, (<--those are the original x-men if you're confused), those are the guys marvel is made on. a bunch of upstanding white people with upstanding backgrounds. so that argument is null and void.

I hate break this to you but Thing was a gangmember and thus has a criminal past. No one wants to bring it up because Ben Grimm is an icon, but that doesn't make it less true.

BTW, you could make a great argument that Peter Parker is an accompice to murder. Think how Pete's Uncle Ben died and why.

zeraze

[Crash-Man]

I hate break this to you but Thing was a gangmember and thus has a criminal past. No one wants to bring it up because Ben Grimm is an icon, but that doesn't make it less true.

My opinions in this post are confined to this point, and not anything else you've said.

I think this "Ben Grimm was a gang member and thus has just as bad a past as Luke Cage" reasoning is ridiculous.

Did Ben Grimm do time? Are his gang days and non-existent criminal record as prominent a part of his character and origin as Cage's?

And does being a gang member automatically mean you have a criminal past?

[Capt USA]

My opinions in this post are confined to this point, and not anything else you've said.

I think this "Ben Grimm was a gang member and thus has just as bad a past as Luke Cage" reasoning is ridiculous.

Did Ben Grimm do time? Are his gang days and non-existent criminal record as prominent a part of his character and origin as Cage's?

And does being a gang member automatically mean you have a criminal past?

grimms gang member days, unless it's been retconned, ended when he graduated from high school and went off to college. So it was basically kids being kids. it never prevented him from being successful, which is what gangs usually are shown to do.


Some of these 'shady' pasts are being retconned away (Falcons and Cage both have been cleaned up so that their origins aren't quite as racially insensitive as the were in the past)

[StoneGold]

I hate break this to you but Thing was a gangmember and thus has a criminal past. No one wants to bring it up because Ben Grimm is an icon, but that doesn't make it less true.

Yeah, but Grimm was Yancy Street, which has always seemed about as dangerous as Our Gang.

OK, truth is, the gangs that Yancy were based on ended up being feeder gangs for assassins for the Outfit, but we're still talking about stuff more like shoplifting and petty vandalism, as opposed to the whole hustler/pimp thing Cage seemed to have going for him. We're talking about gangs from Stan and Jack's youth vs. gangs based on movies Archie Goodwin saw. And while there's no doubt that Brooklyn gangs were hardcore (read books like Murder Inc. or Tough Jews for details), stuff like what Yancy was based on were a couple steps below that.

[Crash-Man]

I just want to know how Grimm's gang days are in anyway comparable to Luke Cage's gang days that put him in prison.

*answered by the post above*

[StoneGold]

Some of these 'shady' pasts are being retconned away (Falcons and Cage both have been cleaned up so that their origins aren't quite as racially insensitive as the were in the past)
Actually, Priest made Sam's thug past even more prominent, and removed all ambiguity as to the nature of his crimes. In that now he was definitely a pimp.

[Maleficentogre]

I love how ben is the only guy you people can pull out of that list and his background is about as vanilla as it gets. gang member my ass. he was a in a high school shoplifting club. Please leave that weaksauce at home.

[zeraze1]

Yeah, but Grimm was Yancy Street, which has always seemed about as dangerous as Our Gang.

OK, truth is, the gangs that Yancy were based on ended up being feeder gangs for assassins for the Outfit, but we're still talking about stuff more like shoplifting and petty vandalism, as opposed to the whole hustler/pimp thing Cage seemed to have going for him. We're talking about gangs from Stan and Jack's youth vs. gangs based on movies Archie Goodwin saw. And while there's no doubt that Brooklyn gangs were hardcore (read books like Murder Inc. or Tough Jews for details), stuff like what Yancy was based on were a couple steps below that.

But thiefs and vandals are still criminals. Is there a double standard here?

zeraze

[zeraze1]

I love how ben is the only guy you people can pull out of that list and his background is about as vanilla as it gets. gang member my ass. he was a in a high school shoplifting club. Please leave that weaksauce at home.

I did mention that Peter Parker is an accomplice to murder. Peter could have stopped a common thief, decided to let petty revenge stop his hand, and thus caused his uncle's death. Even though he was not arrested, that doesn't make Peter's inaction less "shady."

So, Thing's a former thief and Spidey's is a former selfish jerk who caused someone's murders. That's two White icons with shady backgrounds.

zeraze

[StoneGold]

But thiefs and vandals are still criminals. Is there a double standard here?

zeraze
Only if you count misdemeanors and felonies as the exact same things. Stealing candy bars and tagging "Yancy Street Wuz Here" on walls isn't quite the same thing as pimping and jewel thievery, like Sam Wilson did.

[StoneGold]

I did mention that Peter Parker is an accomplice to murder.
Only in Parker's eyes. Not stopping a theft at a theater means you are implicated in any further crimes that thief might commit? I don't think so. Sure, Parker feels guilty about it, but you'd never convict him in a court. Hell, the charge would automatically be dismissed.

[zeraze1]

I think the comment about cage is that it's actually being mentioned in the book, and you don't really see it mentioned in other books with white heroes.(with the exception of Electro who is a villain)

I mean with spiderman the sex was usually behind closed doors(who knows anymore, just going by the past) but we have a black character so lets make him more about sex or something to that affect.

That was a MAX title so the sex would be more explicit. The Fury series was also more graphic when showing the aftermath of Fury's orgy with a bunch of Asian prostitutes. So, I can't say Cage is being singled out in this case.

On a related note, there was an issue of Avengers in which Hank Pym and Wasp were engaged in oral sex. That sequence was almost MAX level in terms of explictness of dialogue and art. Naturally, there were plenty of fans and especially retailers who were really upset with Marvel over that one. (If you get the trade of containing the issue, said sex scene is removed completely.)

I'm glad you brought up the misconception that was presented with Cardiac, yes he is on the wrong side of the law because of his methods, but he didn't have an evil past, he was driven bad because a company doesn't want to invest in developing a cure for a disease that killed his wife(?)(actually can't remember who it was that died)

Actually, Cardiac become a vigilante because of the death of his brother due to corporate greed.

As for his vigilantism being wrong, I question that. Why is a superhero who catches muggers considered moral, but is deemed immoral if he did the same to a CEO who stole his employees' pensions?

Cardiac definitely needs to be revived simply for the ethical and legal discussions.

I agree that on the whole there are a lot less noble backgrounds with white heroes than there are with black heroes(percentage wise) Give it time though as more black creators are coming into the industry they are getting the chance to make characters that more resemble their experiences instead of a caricatures based upon tv depiction of a black person. And once they start to make them with better backgrounds it will still take 10-15 years or so before they gain enough steam to be mainstream popular (with the exception of Spawn I guess)

I don't know if I'd call Spawn a positive Black superhero inasmuch as his creator credits Al Simmons' initial success to being "skinned" of his Blackness. That doesn't sound like a great way for a Black hero to become a hit.

As for the decade timeframe, the irony is that purely heroic Black characters like John Stewart and Static are already mainstream thanks to hit cartoons, JLU and Static Shock, respectively. So, there is definitely an audience for fully developed Black heroes, but publishers have to be really serious in tapping into the audience.

zeraze

[zeraze1]

Only in Parker's eyes. Not stopping a theft at a theater means you are implicated in any further crimes that thief might commit? I don't think so. Sure, Parker feels guilty about it, but you'd never convict him in a court. Hell, the charge would automatically be dismissed.

I said Peter's inaction gave him a shady past. His actions are hardly illegal.

zeraze

[zeraze1]

Only if you count misdemeanors and felonies as the exact same things. Stealing candy bars and tagging "Yancy Street Wuz Here" on walls isn't quite the same thing as pimping and jewel thievery, like Sam Wilson did.

There are politicians who'd disagree with you on that point. I recall some politicians claiming a new tagging video game would cause criminal behavior. I guess the reasoning would go that taggers are associated with violent street gangs.

zeraze

[zeraze1]

Wow, I had never read that Brandon Thomas article. Thanks for pointing that out!

www.hudlinentertainment.com

You're welcome.

By the way, here is Brandon Thomas' latest praise of Black Panther:

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/ambi/114106039624366.htm

I really loved this part:

I have to suppress this urge I’m feelin’ right now…actually, it’s probably something I’ll be fighting for the next couple weeks, but this entire storyline of Black Panther has done nothing but give me the most wonderful ideas. Past four months have essentially amounted to an incredibly inspiring team-up of Marvel’s premier black superheroes, which of course, there aren’t THAT many of, but for once I’mma leave that alone. Only once now, so don’t get too excited. Point is, that seeing Panther, Cage, Blade, and even Brother Voodoo in the same story was far more personally important than I’d originally thought it’d be. Hudlin put the idea out there when he first got the gig, and even I feared it would ultimately come off as somewhat artificial. Like the only relevant connection between the dudes was that they’re black, and that couldn’t possibly be enough to craft a decent story around. Well, you know what, shame on me, because after reading it, not only do I not give a shit about anything like that…but I’ll have this really powerful image stuck in my head for days.

No apology, little explanation, cause I figure if no one is willing to apologize for loving crossovers, and variant covers, ain’t no way that’s going down here. Seeing a group of black superheroes takin’ out dozens of redneck vampires has me smiling a Kool-Aid grin, and thinking…man, what if stuff like this could happen on a more regular basis? What if someone figured out a really clever reason for these guys to team-up every once in a while, for the express purpose of delivering grins to the entire comic industry? Are people ready for a high-profile super team book, with a predominantly black cast?


zeraze

[StoneGold]

There are politicians who'd disagree with you on that point. I recall some politicians claiming a new tagging video game would cause criminal behavior. I guess the reasoning would go that taggers are associated with violent street gangs.

zeraze
There are politicians who shoot people in the face, too. That doesn't change the law. And while not stopping Uncle Ben's killer gives Pete feet of clay, it hardly gives him a shady past. Hawkeye has a shady past. Moon Knight has a shady past. Wolverine has a shady past. The Thunderbolts all have shady pasts. Pete had his one moment ever of selfishness bite him in the ass.

[Loki]

Did Ben Grimm do time? Are his gang days and non-existent criminal record as prominent a part of his character and origin as Cage's?

We don't know - possibly (probably even), but only as a juvenile. I would say they are as much a part of his character as Cage's, but no, not part of his origin - though that's partially down to the Thing being created in 1961, when the comics code was much stricter about not depiciting realistic crime, not just down to ethnicity. In the 1960s heroes had to be goody-two shoes and youth gangs were "Our Gang"; in the 1970s things started to get darker.

grimms gang member days, unless it's been retconned, ended when he graduated from high school and went off to college. So it was basically kids being kids. it never prevented him from being successful, which is what gangs usually are shown to do.


Ben's brother Dan was the leader of the Yancy Street Gang, until he was killed in a gang fight. That's hardly "kids being kids". Ben joined the gang, and eventually became its leader - that's on a par with Luke becoming leader of his gang. He only left the gang because his parents were killed, and he was taken in by his uncle and aunt who lived uptown. So for the period that he was in the gang, his criminality matched anything Luke did at the same age. Luke quit the gangs because he realised of his own volition that it was a dead-end - he didn't want to spend his entire life fighting and running. Ben quit the gangs only because his two new guardians removed him geographically and then worked hard to get through to the hardened thug he'd become.

I just want to know how Grimm's gang days are in anyway comparable to Luke Cage's gang days that put him in prison.

Luke's gang days didn't put him in prison. He'd quit the gangs and gone straight when he was framed by his former gang partner, Willis Stryker.

I'm not arguing that Luke's gang past didn't play a larger role in his origin than Ben's, or that there is an imbalance between how black and white characters and their origins that's only slowly being addressed, but it isn't as one-sided as some seem to feel. You can find counter-examples on both sides. Looking purely at their pre-hero days:

Bishop, a prominent black X-Man - cop, no shady past.
Ant-Man (Scott Lang), Avenger, white - burglar, criminal record
Misty Knight, black - cop, no shady past
Hawkeye, prominent Avenger, white - criminal record
Synch, Generation X - no shady past (and yes, I know, they killed him, which is where I'd argue Marvel is unthinkingly more guilty of doing black heroes down)
Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, prominent Avengers, white - both former criminals
Blade, black - no criminal past
Wonder Man, prominent Avenger, white - former embezzler, linked to the Maggia
Cloak, black - no criminal past
Elektra, white - an assassin before she (mostly) reformed
Pulsar (formerly Captain Marvel), black - no criminal record, cop
Moon Knight, white - mercenary with criminal record
Rage, black - deliberately played on the "angry young black man" stereotype when he first appeared, only to quickly show he was just a young kid - and no criminal record
Northstar, white - former terrorist
War Machine, black - no criminal record
Gambit, white - thief
Thunderbolt, black - no criminal record
Banshee, white - former criminal
M, black (Algerian) - no criminal record
Sunspot, black (or mixed race, to be more precise) - no criminal record
Kasper Cole, mixed race - cop, no criminal record
Brother Voodoo, black - no criminal record
Aegis, black - no criminal record
Anarchist, black - no criminal record
Night Thrasher, black - no criminal record
Black Panther, black - no criminal record
Prodigy, black - no criminal record
Sasquatch (Exiles), black - no criminal record
Giant-Man (Foster), black - no criminal record

Is there an imbalance, a disproportionate number of black characters with criminal or shady pasts? Yes. Is it all one sided? No, far from it, and gradually it's getting balanced out - newer black characters are showing a more balanced mix. What is more problematic is that the range of black heroes available isn't used more (I left out several black heroes who were first introduced as super-villains, but have since reformed, such as Rocket Racer, the first Chemistro, etc); Black Panther has just teamed up with Brother Voodoo and Luke Cage AGAIN. Nice to see them getting some screen time, but why can't we have more than just the same half dozen black heroes (Panther, Cage, Voodoo, Pulsar, Blade, Falcon) hogging all the limelight? Lets see the others getting some use.

[Crash-Man]

Is there an imbalance, a disproportionate number of black characters with criminal or shady pasts? Yes. Is it all one sided? No, far from it, and gradually it's getting balanced out - newer black characters are showing a more balanced mix.

That's always been my opinion.

What gets to me in this thread is stuff like comparing Ben Grimm's Yancy Street days to Luke Cage's gangster/prisoner background. Or citing Peter Parker's past as "shady" because he let the Burglar run past him. That's ridiculous.

Also, I don't think it's tough to see why Luke Cage was used/controversial in the first issue of Alias. They used the interracial sex scene (specifically black man, white woman) to create a controversy, just as they made "F*ck* the first word in the series. They played on those fears and fed into the blacks-on-blondes stigma, regardless of which of the two initiated the tryst. Ant Man, who got it on with Jessica with lengthier, more "graphic" scenes later on, did that during some sort of relationship. With Luke, Jessica was drunk and depressed.

I get the feeling that Bendis did it to add some depth to their transition from f*ck buddies to buddies to what they are now, and it worked for me from that perspective. But let's not act as if Cage's sex scene was typical.

[Loki]

That's always been my opinion.

What gets to me in this thread is stuff like comparing Ben Grimm's Yancy Street days to Luke Cage's gangster/prisoner background.

Depends on what bit of the comparison to me. Ben and Luke probably got up to the same level of criminal activity at similar ages. However Ben got out earlier (though not by choice, which makes Luke the smarter man to me, because he chose to go straight without outside influence, and indeed, against the bad influence of his peers); in some ways you could see Ben as the kind of guy who Luke might have been if Luke had gotten the same breaks instead of the shaft (no blaxploitation pun intended). Both good men of indominitable will who got handed a bad start in life; Ben got helped to turn it round, Luke had to do it all on his own. Is Ben's criminal past as important to his superhero origins as Luke's? Nope, Ben's is far less vital to that, though it does remain an important facet of his character. The Yancy Street Gang have been shown to be a serious youth gang when we've seen them outside of playing pranks on Ben (and remember that the Human Torch has copped to being the real culprit on most of the pranks, and the gang themselves go easy on Ben, because while they viewed him as a bit of a sell-out, they also see him as local boy done good).

I can see a genuine parallel between both Ben and Luke's early gang days; however that doesn't extend to its importance to their origins, the general public perception of either character (if asked to sum up either one, most people wouldn't use "former gang member" to describe Ben, even though he was, but they probably would mention Luke being in prison), and of course, Ben never went to prison for what he did (mind you, neither did Luke - he got away with his actual crimes and framed for something else).

Or citing Peter Parker's past as "shady" because he let the Burglar run past him. That's ridiculous.

I agree with you there.

Also, I don't think it's tough to see why Luke Cage was used/controversial in the first issue of Alias. They used the interracial sex scene (specifically black man, white woman) to create a controversy, just as they made "F*ck* the first word in the series. They played on those fears and fed into the blacks-on-blondes stigma, regardless of which of the two initiated the tryst. Ant Man, who got it on with Jessica with lengthier, more "graphic" scenes later on, did that during some sort of relationship. With Luke, Jessica was drunk and depressed.

I get the feeling that Bendis did it to add some depth to their transition from f*ck buddies to buddies to what they are now, and it worked for me from that perspective. But let's not act as if Cage's sex scene was typical.

No, I agree. Lets also remember that Cage was drunk himself (iirc) and that his culpability in "taking advantage" of Jess was partly down to the book being presented from her pov. She transferred a lot of anger at herself onto him and for a while made him more of the bad guy in what happened than he actually was.

[StoneGold]

Depends on what bit of the comparison to me. Ben and Luke probably got up to the same level of criminal activity at similar ages.
I'll I'm saying is Ben was never shown as taking part in violent robberies. And yeah, it was Stryker actually comitting the violence, but Cage was taking money out of the register while Stryker was knocking the guy unconscious.

[Izsak Loudon]

I agree that on the whole there are a lot less noble backgrounds with white heroes than there are with black heroes(percentage wise) Give it time though as more black creators are coming into the industry they are getting the chance to make characters that more resemble their experiences instead of a caricatures based upon tv depiction of a black person. And once they start to make them with better backgrounds it will still take 10-15 years or so before they gain enough steam to be mainstream popular (with the exception of Spawn I guess)Right.

And quoting Christopher Priest again, and from his "Crew (http://phonogram.us/comics/crew/start.htm)" essay this time...The first issue hadn't even shipped yet. Not having seen even one page of THE CREW, the vultures were already circling overhead. "I am all ghettoed out," one poster wrote on my weblog. "I'm tired of the grim, dark streets of Bad Town and all of that," or words to that effect. News of Black Panther's cancellation and the development of a new book, THE CREW, just kind of hit him the wrong way. These days, in these tough times, comics are an increasingly hard sell. We're not writing to two and a half million largely silent eight year-olds, but to a highly vocal and highly volatile group of somewhere around fifty thousand. Now, we can stay up all night pointing fingers and figuring out who's to blame for that, but the fact is here we are, constantly trying to reinvent ourselves for essentially the same audience when a more informed marketing strategy might be to refresh the audience itself. So, these days, we launch most everything with our backs against the wall. In marketing, I was taught to never advertise something by saying what it isn't. But out-running perception, especially in this business, is more or less the order of the day. And entertaining a loyal but frustrated and shrinking fan base who wants exactly this but not that way and not by him is, increasingly, a shot in the dark. So I find myself having to say, more that what THE CREW is, what THE CREW is not. THE CREW is not The Black Avengers. The Crew is not A Ghetto Book. THE CREW is not even remotely about race. Race is never even mentioned in THE CREW. It is a complete non-issue.

THE CREW is not about the ghetto. Little Mogadishu, the principal location for the series, is exactly one half of the creative environment for this series. In the 1970's, the brilliant Jack Kirby created a ying and yang of Apokolips and New Genesis. THE CREW takes place within the ying and yang of Little Mogadishu and Princeton Walk. An exclusive, Bill Cosby-esque gated community, Princeton Walk was developed by multi-million dollar investments and tax incentives to Grace & Tumbalt, a largely black-owned corporation, who cleaned up a section of Brooklyn and moved the criminal element (and the poverty-line residents) out in favor of gentrified quarter million-dollar townhomes. Little Mogadishu, or The Mog as the locals call it, is a side effect of that gentrification process, the displaced criminal and poverty elements now concentrating in a zone beyond the safety of Princeton Walk's electric fence. THE CREW is not about the ghetto but about the cause and effect of the politics involved in elevating one class over another. But, more importantly, THE CREW is not about a street or a skin color or Huggy Bear or any of that. THE CREW is, first and most importantly, about family.

Yes, in a way, THE CREW is a warm and fuzzy family book about four guys who have all, to one extent or another, lost their family. Drawn together initially out of self interest, the four CREW-mates soon discover their commonality of loss. They are all, in one way or another, orphans. Cut off from parents and siblings and birthdays and Thanksgiving turkey. These are four men intensely dedicated to their rerspective professional goals, but who each has a hole in the center where family and love belong. It takes some time, but eventually this Crew becomes a band of brothers. THE CREW is about that evolution.

Nobody at Marvel asked me to write a "ghetto" book. Or a "black" book. Nonetheless, this is the weight THE CREW struggles with as we launch this summer, the painful whiplash of negative spin from a vocal minority eager to not like anything Marvel has to offer. That the first phase of development of THE CREW had Quicksilver (Pietro) as our Crew leader and the telekinetic (and Caucasian) Justice as a team player will make little difference to people shopping for a reason to not like us. The idea behind THE CREW was not to push an agenda but to write a good buddy book. To channel some of the best aspects of Quantum & Woody and Power Man & Iron Fist along with a little more edge. A little more brain and a little more machismo. To which I responded, ladies and gentlemen— Three Kings.

Three Kings, as I hope you know, was a Gulf War film about some very un-heroic soldiers who nevertheless made the choice to set aside their own self-interest to save Iraqi refugees who were marked for death. In the course of pursuing their own selfish agenda (stealing millions in Kuwaiti gold bullion— no, not the little cubes you use to make soup), George Clooney, Mark Wahlberg and Ice Cube come across a group of people who save the kings from an Iraqi attack. Now these people, many of them escaped Iraqi political dissidents, will certainly die if the kings don't help them get across the border into Iran. The issue of race is not a major player in Three Kings (other than the fall-down funny and brilliant interrogation scene where the Iraqi soldier demands to know why America makes Michael Jackson hate himself so much he tries to become white). The issue of race is given about that much weight in THE CREW.

Starting with the new WHITE TIGER (Kasper Cole, a Jewish man of mixed race), all we knew for certain was THE CREW would eventually be anchored by a character who evolves from Marvel's smash hit Truth: Red, White & Black. So, if you count Kasper as black (and, by law, you have to), then we've got two black guys on board, which worried me. When it looked like Pietro wouldn't work out, we kept Justice and thought briefly about Dagger, of Cloak & Dagger, before settling in on Alexander Power, GEE from the 80's series Power Pack. This was my favorite business. With Pietro and Kasper and Justice and Spin-off Character From Truth To Be Named Later, well, now you had a party. Alex would have played the role now played by JUNTA, a spoiler character out to exploit The Crew for his own reasons. It would have been a hoot, I think, to have this cute little kid grow up to be, well, Rick Schroeder's character from NYPD Blue.

Editor Tom Brevoort, spoil sport that he is, questioned how old Alex would be in Marvel Time: how much Marvel Time had passed since Power Pack. I, literally, jumped up and down, shouting, I don't care! I don't care! He's the guy! He's the one! But, in the end, reason prevailed and both Alex Power and Pietro Maximoff were booted from THE CREW. Which makes the "ghettoed out" crack all the more annoying...And he goes on to say, and something that I found interesting...I briefly wanted to call this book The Black Avengers. It's a terrible idea, but, the truth is, with this cast, race will speak the loudest. Having not said a whole lot about what this book is, the feedback I've gotten thus far has only confirmed that fear. Fans don't know what THE CREW is, but they know it's, "A black book set in the ghetto." So, I figured, why not. Race is all some fans will see anyway, let's just get to it. The book has a kind of Avengers vibe, anyway, with two archetypical AV characters in our black Iron Man (WAR MACHINE) and Black Captain America (JUSTICE). Moreover, Black Avengers really just nails What This Is in a way "The Crew" really can't.

"The Crew" may summon, for some fans, unpleasant images of an urban hip-hop culture. I'd guess most comics fans are not universally fans of 50 Cent and Eminem and Nas. Most people have very specific cultural boundaries they respond to, and the hip-hop subtext of a name like "The Crew" may be off-putting. Hip-Hop, to those of us (myself included) who are neither, well, hip nor hop, can feel like either an accusation of un-coolness or as confirmation of our own insecurity about our place in popular culture. Being a fan of Rhino Records reissues more so than of what is new on the charts, I can certainly relate to that generational separation from the cutting edge of pop culture. To people who do not hop, Hip-Hop and its nascent cultural implications (urban clothes, the predatory street look and booming, thunderous music) can be received as a kind of attack. As violence. Having not read even a single page of THE CREW, many fans were predisposed to not like it simply based on (1) the race of the characters (and, perhaps, the author) and (2) the cultural subtext of the book's title. Black Avengers would have mitigated both concerns, but would have made Marvel into a kind of minstrel show. In 1972, Marvel could have gotten away with Black Avengers. In 2003, it would be seen as a kind of unfortunate in-joke...And there's more, of course... at http://phonogram.us/comics/crew/start.htm.

Anyway, like you were saying, it can happen, but it's just seems like it's going to take forever for it to do so... And that's because it's a poor market for it. And, like you said, it almost seems like it takes a black writer to create a good black character. :(

And so I goes...

[Sharcque]

Gonna derail this thread a bit just so's I can say that my all-time favorite comic book superhero is Black Lightning. I have no idea why, either, other than when I was a little boy buyinhg it off the spinner racks, I thought his costume was cool looking. Bring back Black Lightning!!!!!!!!!!! (other than as a guest star)

[Gaz]

I think the comment about cage is that it's actually being mentioned in the book, and you don't really see it mentioned in other books with white heroes.(with the exception of Electro who is a villain)

I mean with spiderman the sex was usually behind closed doors(who knows anymore, just going by the past) but we have a black character so lets make him more about sex or something to that affect.

And it's ignoring the fact that it was A) in a labelled MAX (thusly mature) title, and B) it's nowhere near as graphic as people seem to think/remember. It's like the ear scene in Reservoir Dogs. You never see the ear getting severed, but people talk like you do. You see Luke and Jessica having sex, yes, and the expressions do lend themselves to that conclusion, but the panel is so tightly focused on her face that you can't be sure.
And it ignores how cool he is when he brings up the Purple Man trauma with her.

Now, if you want to complain about Hyperion or The Punisher not having sex on panel, then go for it, but don't take apples and say that they're different from these other apples, which happen to be oranges.

[Gaz]

No, I agree. Lets also remember that Cage was drunk himself (iirc) and that his culpability in "taking advantage" of Jess was partly down to the book being presented from her pov. She transferred a lot of anger at herself onto him and for a while made him more of the bad guy in what happened than he actually was.
It's not totally clear if he's drunk, but he's had a couple.
And they even talk about that later in the series, when they're guarding Matt Murdock. He calls her on judging his behaviour, and points out that it took two to, er, tango that night
(Yes, I'm defensive, but I like Bendis' version of Cage, and I LOVE Jessica as a character.)

[DDM]

Gonna derail this thread a bit just so's I can say that my all-time favorite comic book superhero is Black Lightning. I have no idea why, either, other than when I was a little boy buyinhg it off the spinner racks, I thought his costume was cool looking. Bring back Black Lightning!!!!!!!!!!! (other than as a guest star)

You need to e-mail DC since Black Lightning is a DC character.

[Porcelain]

Looong thread and jumping in late so only read the first couple of pages so apologies before hand
__________________________

Honestly think it's a combination of multiple factors:
> blaxploitation for some characters of certain eras (plural considering we're seeing a retro resurrgence in pop culture)
> sterotyping &/or poor characterisation (black characters aren't the only victims)
> 'cool' factor (which applies equally to all characters of the rainbow)
> coincidence (yes it really does exist too)

On the flip side think of the most prominant White 'heros': Wolverine, Spider-man, Daredevil, Captain America, Hulk, Elecktra, Punisher - only Captain America is close to lily white (& I'm guessing that's debateable as I only have a surface knowledge of the character), Spiderman next, yet he has one of the worst media reps going. Dangerous = exciting, in the same shallow way that big guns = good action.

Yes character's need some kind of realism/grounding - no one is 'all good', I just wish there wasn't such a penchant for subsituting dark histories or bandwagon jumping for character developement.

A/N: When it's done well I have no problems with it - regardless of colour.

[Sharcque]

You need to e-mail DC since Black Lightning is a DC character.
Doh!!!!! :o

[Dooby Doo!]

Y'know its funny. Yes you can say that a lot of black characters have shady pasts, but just think about popular culture nowadays. In the music industry rappers all claim to be criminals. Most songs have to be about being a "gangsta" or some other criminal activity. Even your avatar, maczero, is Reily from the Boondocks. He constantly has fantasies about being a crime boss. Its not some sort of latent racism in comics, just that its very common for black people in popular cultre to be represented in a criminal light, by all races. Its not actually true but thats what sells.


Sadly if it sales then most companies won't hesitate to capitalize on a stereptype or mysnomer even Marvel.

[Dooby Doo!]

Thing was a gangsta? crazy!