Batman 650 thoughts ** SPOILERS ** [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

jwd

02-22-2006, 03:00 PM

Batman 650

Um.. I think Bruce, Jason and the Joker just died.

First of all a little discrepancy here with IC #4. Batman shows up to talk with Nightwing in IC #4 but based on the events in this issue I don't see how he managed it. Oh well.

The story starts right where it left off. They witness the Bludhaven explosion. Bruce runs to go but Jason stops him and they fight some more. Eventually Bruce knocks/kicks the sh!t out of him. (Yay!) We get to the Joker. I really enjoyed the conversation between the 2 of them here. Bruce's reasons for why he can't kill him. It made sense. Basically Bruce is afraid if he does what he wishes (torture and kill the Joker) he'll start down a path he'll never return from.

So anyway. Confronation ends with Jason unconcious and the Joker managing to get a gun and some explosions. He shoots the explosions and it shows the outside of the buiilding - KABOOM!

Right after that though we get a page of multiple Batman's - A lot of books have been doing that this month.

So my guess is there's going to be a partial reset because I seriously doubt they were ever considering killing Bruce, Jason and the Joker.

Now we just have the annual left to find out how he came back.

Guts/Batman

02-22-2006, 03:10 PM

Yea...

I wonder how the Bat-editors will be able to wiggle Jason, Joker and Batman out of death this time. I know these are comics but this one just about breaks my Suspension of Disbelief...

Especially Joker. Dude was right at the center of the explosion. Batman running toward it when it goes off. Jason about to bleed to death. I mean...wow. My SoD cannot take this much longer.

I will say this is about a 5/10. It's not terrible but it's not good either. The dialogue to me was sketchy at best. Some good lines. Some terrible lines.

The dialogue between Batman and Jason was okay. Batman explaining why he can't kill. It's pretty sad that Jason doesn't understand it when you think about it.

Also, when he said that he would have killed in a heartbeat if aDitF would have resulted in Bruce dying instead of Jason, and asking why Bruce couldn't do the same...

Didn't Bruce, in fact, try and kill Joker when Joker shoots the driver of the chopper in aDitF? Just using the weak excuse that he did in Batman Begins...

Jason Todd, sir, you are an idiot. If it makes you feel any better, Bruce is just big an idiot as you...

jwd

02-22-2006, 03:18 PM

I wonder how the Bat-editors will be able to wiggle Jason, Joker and Batman out of death this time. I know these are comics but this one just about breaks my Suspension of Disbelief...

That's one of the reasons I think there's going to be a partial reset of sorts. I don't think anything major will change but I wouldn't be suprised if after all the IC stuff is over that explosion never happened.

Didn't Bruce, in fact, try and kill Joker when Joker shoots the driver of the chopper in aDitF?

Yeah. That was right after Jason's death though and Batman was enraged and running on pure vengeance. Even if he had told Jason "I tried to kill him but Superman got in the way" - the fact is he didn't kill him and that's what made Jason angry.

Guts/Batman

02-22-2006, 03:21 PM

That's one of the reasons I think there's going to be a partial reset of sorts. I don't think anything major will change but I wouldn't be suprised if after all the IC stuff is over that explosion never happened.

This is the best way out of the bad situation that they put themselves in by ending this issue this way.

This was the first non-filler issue of this arc. Took long enough, Mr. Winick...

AlistairCrane

02-22-2006, 05:43 PM

There was really nothing new in this issue. They didn't really need to publish the last 6 issues--the annual would have sufficed.

divinebrown

02-22-2006, 06:03 PM

My main complaint is with the art. I loved how Joker looked when Jason beat him with the crowbar. Where's Mahnke?

SuperSince92

02-22-2006, 06:19 PM

Batman didn't die due to the explosion. You see his sillouette sifting through the wreckage similar to how he did in A Death in the Family when he found Jason.

What I was expecting as a full page panel on the last page was a take on Bruce with Jason in his arms once again, dead from the blast.

Hence this "history repeating itself" theme Rucka was looking for. I thought this was a solid part of the story. I'm dying to find out what happens in the aftermath...Batman seemed alright since after this he goes and finds Dick in IC #4. Interesting....

Guts/Batman

02-22-2006, 06:44 PM

There was really nothing new in this issue. They didn't really need to publish the last 6 issues--the annual would have sufficed.

Exactly.

What Winick has done was just a practice in writing bad filler and call it a cohesive story when it isn't. And no, if this was mandated by DC, I still hold Winick responsible for the teribbleness of this "arc."

Personally, the first half of it was "Have Jason blow shit up" and the second half was "Make sure to tie this into OYL and IC"...

I also had issues with the art but forgot to post in my first post on this thread. If Mahnke was doing the art, this issue would have been much easier to swallow. The art wasn't bad but the art alone is worth buying.

Why I bought this arc had almost nothing to do with Winick's writing but more to do with Mahnke's arc. Mahnke is friggin sweet.

Guts/Batman

02-22-2006, 06:45 PM

Where's Mahnke?

Probably working on Frankenstein...

Nick Kal

02-22-2006, 08:54 PM

This was a great issue. I loved it the whole way through.. also did nobody see the multiple Batmen on the last page? Those ripples... Obviously somethign happened to affect time and cause the 1 year later shift, which I'm sure will be explored even further in IC #5. ;)

Choppa

02-22-2006, 09:10 PM

What I was expecting as a full page panel on the last page was a take on Bruce with Jason in his arms once again, dead from the blast.

What? Like this (http://www.dccomics.com/comics/?cm=4930)?

It sounds like we add this story to the list of unfinished ones.

Leon Thomas

02-22-2006, 09:17 PM

I loved the standoff. As far as who is and isn't dead, I can only assume that will be sorted out in Infinite Crisis based on the ending. What happened with the explosion may be "cancelled out" by the universe shifting and changing everyone's fates.

xnef1025

02-22-2006, 09:19 PM

I don't know if these last "multiple" pages really mean anything literal story wise in any of the books they are occuring in. They are doing them to almost all of the books that are jumping OYL. One of the Superman books got a Lois page, the other got Jimmy Olsen. BoP got a Huntress page(should have been a Black Canary one too I think). Nightwing didn't get one, but that book has gotten royally shat upon during the entire lead up and through IC so far so that doesn't surprise me. Besides, the final page on that one was better anyway.

They seem to be just a thematic device to kind of clue the reader into the books that are continuing on into the OYL jump. Cancelled books like Batgirl don't get the special pages :(

Maleficentogre

02-22-2006, 09:25 PM

The outsiders one was my favorite.

seaflower

02-22-2006, 10:03 PM

Didn't Bruce, in fact, try and kill Joker when Joker shoots the driver of the chopper in aDitF? Just using the weak excuse that he did in Batman Begins...

Jason Todd, sir, you are an idiot. If it makes you feel any better, Bruce is just big an idiot as you...

You do realize that Jason might not know that Batman almost let Joker die...We aren't sure how much information Jason knows about what has happen since his death or how Jason is alive to begin with. Maybe all he knows is that the man who "killed" him is still alive.

Guts/Batman

02-22-2006, 10:13 PM

You do realize that Jason might not know that Batman almost let Joker die...We aren't sure how much information Jason knows about what has happen since his death or how Jason is alive to begin with.

If Jason doesn't know it, he is an idiot who hasn't done his homework...

Nick Kal

02-22-2006, 10:17 PM

If Jason doesn't know it, he is an idiot who hasn't done his homework...

Jason's emotions have obviously gotten the best of him. He doesn't care if Batman has almost killed Joker... as he said. What he wanted was for the Joker to die, period.

Guts/Batman

02-22-2006, 10:23 PM

Static-Pulse

02-22-2006, 10:27 PM

I haven't read this issue, and I won't, but... Given what Batman said to Dick in Nightwing #117 -- about the difference in failing to step in front of a bullet and pulling the trigger -- why did he even bother throwing the Batarang? I mean, wouldn't the pragmatic tack, given his philosophy, be to see what Jason did, then bring him down for murder if he followed through?

Or am I off-base here?

Nick Kal

02-22-2006, 10:39 PM

That's fine and all but if DC wants me to take Jason seriously as a character, he's going to have to do a lot better than what he has been doing during Winick's run...

...and accept that fact that Batman can't and won't kill Joker.

Because you say so? That's a major reason why Jason is angry with Batman. He can't accept it and why should he? He's like a son to Bruce and when he gets killed then Bruce doesn't kill that man? This is devastating to him.

TJEscobar

02-23-2006, 08:23 AM

I thought it was a great issue. A lot of things happened, but of course, the Joker comes away with some measure of success. We'll see what happened to Jason after being blown up....again. The dialoguw with the Joker was niiiiiiice. Batman sure had a good month with Nightwing, IC, his own book, and GL.

Max_Dillon

02-23-2006, 09:52 AM

I feel sorry for any unsuspecting bloke that decides to cop the trade of this arc in a few months.

Interesting conversation between Jason and Bruce though.

DrthTater

02-23-2006, 09:57 AM

not to sound like a total moron, but could someone explain the last panel?

Max_Dillon

02-23-2006, 10:02 AM

It has to do with the events of Infinite Crisis. If you don't know, I won't spoil.

sixstringguild

02-23-2006, 10:05 AM

So did Bats mean to wound Jason or did he miss his hand?

I hope Jason isn't dead. He would make a great foil for Batman, who needs another new enemy...

jetter_cheeze

02-23-2006, 10:11 AM

So did Bats mean to wound Jason or did he miss his hand?

See, the way i look at it was that If Joker hadn't moved the batarang would have hit his head, thus knowcking him out or doing some serious damage to Joker. Since joker ducked, it bounced off the wall and hit Jason which Bruce didn't mean to do.

cmndob

02-23-2006, 11:10 AM

I really enjoyed this issue but I was conflicted. I think the "opening up" of Batman to shed his dickitude is a good move, and I have really enjoyed how Jason plays into that. What I don't enjoy is a story that is in Batman's premiere book that matches up in NO way with Crisis. G/B, you'd have to agre that even Nightwing matches up better than this title. Dick could have gone through Return of Donna, then Outsiders, then 107-114 or whenever he was "Renegade," then had his scene in IC 1 happen, then 4, and that makes sense. Somehow Batman is everywhere in the DCU at once, they SHOULD have let this story lead into the OMAC attack on Themescria, then the breakdown, then Nightwing. Instead he's meeting Kal-L, going to Bludhaven, finishing his fight with Jason, and having the ripple effect happen all at once. Never mind that the Joker's best appearance in years in IC3 makes no sense. And yet Winnick is supposed to be a "Ground floor" guy with this whole Crisis. I dunno at least Devin Grayson has an excuse.

sixstringguild

02-23-2006, 11:20 AM

See, the way i look at it was that If Joker hadn't moved the batarang would have hit his head, thus knowcking him out or doing some serious damage to Joker. Since joker ducked, it bounced off the wall and hit Jason which Bruce didn't mean to do.

I guess this is where my problems lay w/ this ending:
1. Joker was able to duck a Batman-thrown batarang
2. Batman would throw a batarang in such a way that Joker could dodge it.
3. Batman wouldn't know that if he missed he had an opportunity to hurt Jason
4. Jason appears dead.

I know I sound like a nit-picky fanboy, but I was really pulling for this storyline to be awesome all the way through.

jetter_cheeze

02-23-2006, 11:40 AM

I guess this is where my problems lay w/ this ending:
1. Joker was able to duck a Batman-thrown batarang
2. Batman would throw a batarang in such a way that Joker could dodge it.
3. Batman wouldn't know that if he missed he had an opportunity to hurt Jason
4. Jason appears dead.

I know I sound like a nit-picky fanboy, but I was really pulling for this storyline to be awesome all the way through.

But if you think to yourself while reading it that Batman obviously is emotionally distressed and may not be at the top of his game while this moment is happening then everything above makes sense.

Jason appears to be dead. Appearances can be deceiving. Honestly, if he beat death once, who's to say he can't again? The fact that death's door is still open, as alluded to in Teen Titans, means he could still come back the same way he did before.

And aren't you wondering just who is the second Nightwing come OYL? It does have the appearance to be Jason...

Static-Pulse

02-23-2006, 01:27 PM

But if you think to yourself while reading it that Batman obviously is emotionally distressed and may not be at the top of his game while this moment is happening then everything above makes sense.See. If you accept that Batman is a woman, everything makes sense. :D

Jake V

02-23-2006, 01:51 PM

I found the ending to this very similar to the ending of Wolverine #90.

Big climactic fight, where the hero does something over the edge and makes it seem as though he killed the villain, but before anything can be confirmed, some universe-changing event somewhere else alters reality and possibly presses a reset button.

Not that I'm complaining, I liked both stories, I just found them to be pretty similar. It's really the only way to put a punctuation mark on the end of the story, while leaving the option open to invalidate everything.

Too bad Mahnke didn't do the art.

Jack Roberts

02-23-2006, 03:55 PM

After reading in an interview over at Newsurama that Judd's inspiration for this arc was the Jason/Clayface issue during "Hush," I am not surprised by the conclusion.

Guts/Batman

02-23-2006, 03:58 PM

Holy s***!!!

Jason was a Clayface!!! :eek:

Violently Apathetic

02-23-2006, 04:03 PM

It all makes sense now!

Anyway, I enjoyed the issue a lot, but I really think it would have been more effective with less lead up, but that's just me repeating what has already been said by others. Not that I didn't have fun with the Red Hood blowing things up (what can I say, I'm easily amused) but all that stuff with the Black Mask seemed really out of place considering he was just left standing there to be killed by another hero in a different book.

mohammedali

02-23-2006, 04:06 PM

I guess this is where my problems lay w/ this ending:
1. Joker was able to duck a Batman-thrown batarang
2. Batman would throw a batarang in such a way that Joker could dodge it.
3. Batman wouldn't know that if he missed he had an opportunity to hurt Jason
4. Jason appears dead.

I know I sound like a nit-picky fanboy, but I was really pulling for this storyline to be awesome all the way through.
Joker didn't duck. We only see him escaping Todds grasp after he's been hit by a 'rang.

In terms of the issue itself... I enjoyed it. It's not how I would have hoped for things to happen, but sometimes reading a story that doesn't end the way you want is what makes it more special. Some of the dialog was great. I found Jokers comments to be slightly forced, but Wayne and Todd really made did it for me. However, I felt it still relies too much on cliches. Batman doesn't give Jason adequate answers IMO.
I also wasn't too keen on the way Todd was drawn, though I thought Batman was looking cool (though more like a crow than a bat). It could have been better, but overall, a good issue.

Mohammed Ali

Guts/Batman

02-23-2006, 04:09 PM

but all that stuff with the Black Mask seemed really out of place considering he was just left standing there to be killed by another hero in a different book.

The funny thing is that we still don't know where Catwoman fits into all of this...

jetter_cheeze

02-23-2006, 07:32 PM

Joker didn't duck. We only see him escaping Todds grasp after he's been hit by a 'rang.

Well, if you look at the preceding panel, joker was to Todd's right with jason right behind joker but a little to the side to see Bruce. The batarang went to todd's right. Joker had to have moved before the batarang hit jason in order for it to miss him and hit todd's neck.

Guts/Batman

02-23-2006, 08:21 PM

Come to think of it...

This arc in Batman and the recent arcs in Catwoman couldn't have worse timining between them...

stillanerd

02-23-2006, 08:32 PM

One question: does issue take place BEFORE or AFTER Infinite Crisis #2? Because if it's before, then we know that not only does Batman survive but so does the Joker...again. :) So that means the only one who hasn't been confirmed is Jason Todd (although I'm sure anyone who is aware of the March issue of Nightwing have a pretty good idea.) Hmm, maybe just answered my own question. :o

Guts/Batman

02-23-2006, 08:38 PM

One question: does issue take place BEFORE or AFTER Infinite Crisis #2?

After...We know this happened between DoV IC Special and /Nightwing #117/IC #4 because Chemo drops at the beginning of IC #4.

Believe me, figuring this out hurts my brain...

ShaggyB

02-23-2006, 08:58 PM

That's fine and all but if DC wants me to take Jason seriously as a character, he's going to have to do a lot better than what he has been doing during Winick's run...

...and accept that fact that Batman can't and won't kill Joker.

Dude, 2 things

1. Joker KILLED HIM, no matter what the answer is, jason wont accept it. The value a person puts on themselves is always greater than what others would apply to them. Meaning bats didnt kill joker because jasons life wasnt heavier than bats sence of justice and duty, thus not making him kill joker. Jason cant accept that, its not something he or any other rational person could do.

2. nothing personal by this but given your posting record you are never going to take jason seriously, nor will you ever find an issue of batman good that has a character you dislike in it. Hush & Red Hood seem to be your top two guys to post negatively towards no matter how good or bad the issue they are featured in.

My opinion of this issue was it concluded a series solidly, if you liked the series it satisfied you, if you didnt why did you continue to buy it till the end? Bring on the Annual so we can find out how he came back.

Strider119

02-23-2006, 08:59 PM

Yeah the continuity got all sorts of screwed up with this issue ... how did batman save dick in Nigthwings book and then have talks with dick in IC4, but in his own book he never gets a chance to set foot in Bluddhaven?

I liked the interaction between jason and bruse in the showdown though. and i thought Jasons motivations and explination for wanting to kill joker were right on. Made you feel bad for the guy, and gave him another personality layer.

Also when he starts crying when he has the gun to jokers head.

I dunno, ya kinda start to relate to him and see past his "im a tough gun toting anti-hero" exterior. This was the first real example I saw of them taking his character outside of their "badass" box.

slight of hand:
strider119

Calculator

02-23-2006, 09:10 PM

My opinion of this issue was it concluded a series solidly, if you liked the series it satisfied you, if you didnt why did you continue to buy it till the end?

Because to stop buying it makes too much f***ing sense. You can't reason with fan boys. It's best to just move on.

ShaggyB

02-23-2006, 09:11 PM

I liked the interaction between jason and bruse in the showdown though. and i thought Jasons motivations and explination for wanting to kill joker were right on. Made you feel bad for the guy, and gave him another personality layer.

Also when he starts crying when he has the gun to jokers head.

I dunno, ya kinda start to relate to him

This is exactly what a good book is suppose to make you do. 5 outta 5, great story good finish to the arc.

DCKar2nist

02-23-2006, 10:54 PM

I LOVED it! 5 out of 5, great way to end the arc!

But just becuase we enjoyed the issue and someone else didn't, doesnt give us the right to say their wrong or riducle them for their opinion.

DCKar2nist

02-23-2006, 11:04 PM

What I don't enjoy is a story that is in Batman's premiere book that matches up in NO way with Crisis.

Isn't there enough crisis events in other books? I'm glad Winnick had the chance to end his arc without any forced IC tie-ins.

Guts/Batman

02-23-2006, 11:09 PM

Isn't there enough crisis events in other books? I'm glad Winnick had the chance to end his arc without any forced IC tie-ins.

No forced tie-ins?

The last two issues have been full of forced tie-in. The Chemo event makes no sense whatsoever...

DCKar2nist

02-23-2006, 11:18 PM

I just went back to be sure, and I didn't notice any IC tie-ins in Batman 648 or 649.

And why didn't the Chemo event make any sense?

Jake V

02-23-2006, 11:25 PM

I think the second to last page with the wreckage of the building suddenly not on fire anymore in the later panels was meant to convey that some time had past. You can see Batman in the last panel, so maybe he's returning to the scene of the crime, so to speak, to look for clues. I think this allows Batman to do all those other things in Nightwing and IC.

I dunno what the deal was with the last page though.

And it really was a shame that Mahnke couldn't finish out the story. No offense to Battle meant.

Guts/Batman

02-23-2006, 11:30 PM

I just went back to be sure, and I didn't notice any IC tie-ins in Batman 648 or 649.

And why didn't the Chemo event make any sense?

Just because it doesn't say "Infiniter Crisis Crossover" at the top of the cover doesn't mean it isn't a crossover. It is a clear crossover.

It throws the timeline completely off. The "OMAC" in #648 didn't really hurt my brain but Chemo blew my mind. It was looking like this arc was clearly Pre-IC #1 because the RoE hadn't exploded.

Now, we know why it didn't explode. It had already exploded...but didn't show ANY effects of it nor any mentions of it. Doesn't really make any sense, and I am getting less and less lenient of this screwing up of details.

Catwoman has the same problem.

The way the Bat-verse has corresponded to IC is irresponsible writing and editting clearly to anyone trying to figure it out.

Maleficentogre

02-23-2006, 11:58 PM

I think it's a huge improvement over the last issue.

Guts/Batman

02-24-2006, 12:01 AM

I think it's a huge improvement over the last issue.

Oh definitely.

Last issue is as bad as it gets. This month it doesn't get my nomination DS comic of the month. That nomination goes to Catwoman #52.

DCKar2nist

02-24-2006, 12:18 AM

The "OMAC" in #648 didn't really hurt my brain but Chemo blew my mind. It was looking like this arc was clearly #1 because the RoE hadn't exploded.

Guts, I just flipped through the issue again and the OMAC got a panel, a panel!! I'd hardly call that a tie-in, and what do you mean by "It was looking like this arc was clearly #1 because the RoE hadn't exploded"?

Guts/Batman

02-24-2006, 12:46 AM

what do you mean by "It was looking like this arc was clearly #1 because the RoE hadn't exploded"?

This arc was clearly Pre-IC #1 before #649, because as we know the RoE explodes in DoV #6 and into IC #1. Before #649, this arc was clearly in the Pre-IC #1 camp because we haven't seen the RoE* explode yet in a Batman comic outside of GC #37 and because there is no mention of it ANYWHERE in Winick's run.

The only logical thing to think is that it hasn't happened yet, thus making it definitely pre-IC #1 (Hell, pre-later DoV). That's why the dropping of Chemo being in Batman #649 is...utterly preposterous.

Oh, that OMAC is a robot, too. *Mind explodes* Seriously, if DC can't keep track of it's own continuity, why am I even bothering? Oh, that's right I like my comics to maintain some semblence of internal consistency. Which is not happening in the continuity Bat-Titles.

It's like the DC editors told Winick to "make sure it connects somehow to IC, no matter how little sense it makes". This arc (if you can call it that) is half "Well, just have Jason blow some shit up to blow some time" and half "make sure it fits into IC, somehow oh and make sure you finish that Jason/Batman/Joker story that is mandated you have based on what happened in aDitF".

The sheer amount of Batman's appearance make this all the more confusing. We can reason that Batman and the JLA was "fighting" Despero in Crisis of Conscience when the RoE explodes over Gotham City because of the confirmed timeline of that event but there is NO mention of that either in Winick's arc.

There is also no damage taken from that fight in the mansion and Batcave.

And this isn't even taking Superman/Batman into the equation. That adds a whole nother level of insanity to this.

*RoE refers to Rock of Eternity, if you didn't know

jadrax

02-24-2006, 01:53 AM

I don't know if these last "multiple" pages really mean anything literal story wise in any of the books they are occuring in. They are doing them to almost all of the books that are jumping OYL. One of the Superman books got a Lois page, the other got Jimmy Olsen. BoP got a Huntress page(should have been a Black Canary one too I think). Nightwing didn't get one,(

Nightwing kinda got one, but they played about with it a bit, you just got a past version of dick (Robin) and babs (Batgirl) snogging above the prsent day event.

Guts/Batman

02-24-2006, 01:54 AM

Nightwing kinda got one, but they played about with it a bit, you just got a past version of dick (Robin) and babs (Batgirl) snogging above the prsent day event.

This was in this month's Birds of Prey, IIRC, just to add to this.

mohammedali

02-24-2006, 09:22 AM

I think the Bat continuity isn't as bad as you're making out Guts. It's just that they didn't mention everything that happened in other books, and in effect, why should they? I'd prefer to have some sence of consistancy rather than random throw ins about other stories. You've pointed out how random IC throw ins have been bad enough, so I can't see why you'd want things like Crisis of Concience being alluded to, or RoE being shown blown up if it doesn't effect the story. "Batman" isn't supposed to be a book that shows every single Bat moment, or even every important Bat moment. If it happened in JLA, it doesn't need to be shown again. If it happened in Gotham and Batman wasn't involved, it doesn't need to be mentioned. The timeline works, it just doesn't tell you all the IC related events - and considering this is a Batbook, that's probably best.

Guts/Batman

02-24-2006, 02:44 PM

I don't need it to happen again. I just need a reference. I know I'm being hard on DC for it's nonsensicalness but I'm not going to say "Oh, this is when this happened. Cool." I've seen too much of the crappy storytelling to let it pass.

Catwoman #52 had some good references so it helped the timeline. Spoonfeeding the stuff is one thing, not giving enough information by not referencing events (by art or word) is something else.

And we haven't gotten enough information during IC...

IamtheRock3

02-24-2006, 08:08 PM

thought it was great

Love batman response to Jason question

and love Jason response to the response.

Watchman

02-24-2006, 08:43 PM

I don't need it to happen again. I just need a reference. I know I'm being hard on DC for it's nonsensicalness but I'm not going to say "Oh, this is when this happened. Cool." I've seen too much of the crappy storytelling to let it pass.

I'll have to agree with Guts. It may be "just a comic" or what not, but it's still a story and, to me, personally, a story has to make some sort of sense and have some sort of flow, especially when that story has to tie into the greater DCU.

As for this issue, I'm not going to say much. Certainly, I thought the dialogue was a bit better, but the ART, my god, the art was just horrible, IMO. I wanted to rip out the page when the Joker is first shown. Why is his nose so damn big? lol

BTW, let's hope Jason Todd is dead (though I highly doubt that), and that the Joker is dead (so he can take a breather and then come back big later on). Besides, I can see no WAY in the Joker surviving, as he was right on top of the frickin' dynamite.

Guts/Batman

02-24-2006, 08:52 PM

I'll have to agree with Guts. It may be "just a comic" or what not, but it's still a story and, to me, personally, a story has to make some sort of sense and have some sort of flow, especially when that story has to tie into the greater DCU.

Exactly. "Just a comic" doesn't give DC a pass to use this kind of storytelling. At least to me it doesn't. Granted I I put the same candle to Johns, Winick, Brubaker, etc as I do to King, Tolkien, etc.

Continuity only sucks when writers and editors stop using it to reference stuff and just put things in without referencing stuff, which is what the Bat-editors and writers have done.

I don't want continuity to become a stranglehold on stuff but it works and exists for a reason. Writers and editors all work together to make a continuous and free flowing story that doesn't have "WTF?!?" breaks.

Isn't it pretty sad when your ability to link stories comes mostly from interviews of writers and not the content of the issues? That screams "Not enough information!" to me.

I know I read comics differently than 90% of this board but I am not interested in poor storytelling anymore. I gave stuck with IC and all the comics I read to know when stuff has happened...

No more. Just no more.

Guts/Batman

02-24-2006, 08:54 PM

Besides, I can see no WAY in the Joker surviving, as he was right on top of the frickin' dynamite.

Winick totally killed my Suspension of Disbelief with this issue...

Maleficentogre

02-24-2006, 08:58 PM

Maybe it was one of joker's fancy robot jokers

Watchman

02-24-2006, 09:25 PM

Maybe it was one of joker's fancy robot jokers
Then Jason Todd might as well be a Clayface.

Maleficentogre

02-24-2006, 09:29 PM

There are about 12 clayfaces, might've been one of them. who knows?

Watchman

02-24-2006, 09:34 PM

There are about 12 clayfaces, might've been one of them. who knows?
Lol.

My point was that the idea was pretty ridiculous. If that's the best explanation they can come up with for the Joker coming back, then that's really pathetic. Besides, I highly doubt that it's a robot. Unless the Joker can program it to have a mind of its own, plus copius amounts of blood running through its system...

I'm not saying that I WANT the Joker dead (as he is my favorite comic character and one of my favorite fictional characters). I'm saying that the writers at DC are going to have to do a hell of a lot of good explaining to make his return sound believable.

Azrael52

02-24-2006, 11:32 PM

My main complaint is with the art. I loved how Joker looked when Jason beat him with the crowbar. Where's Mahnke?

I really liked the story, but I can't help but agree with you on this. The art wasn't bad, but it sure wasn't what I'd like. Did Joker remind you of Sideshow Bob?

trickster

02-25-2006, 03:19 PM

The Shadow

02-25-2006, 03:27 PM

trickster

02-25-2006, 03:54 PM

Worst.
Issue.
Of.
Winick's.
Run.

Period.

I am shocked that got published and I'm even more shocked they had the gaul to charge $3.50CDN for it! DC should be ashamed of themselves.

What a clusterf*ck of an issue. This makes the 5th or 6th issue in a row where nothing happened, nothing was resolved, nothing nothing nothing... NOTHING.

I feel so cheated. :evilangry

Well, what the hell do you expect? You know damn well they can't kill any major characters. Once you open the floodgates that's it. You'll have no reason to go on. All the heroes get rid of their villains in one issue and DC might as well close up shop. It's not that bull that "we don't kill cos we're better than them", it's "we don't kill cos we'd run out of characters in a week if we did". That's why prisons don't hold, that's why serial killers like the Joker don't even go to trial (in the real world Gordon would have been fired 10 times by now).

Lord Grog

02-25-2006, 06:28 PM

Nothing happened? I know you hate Winnick, but damn.

As far as the conclusion, it still doesn't feel finished. I think this is because the Batman Annual 25 isn't out yet, and we don't know how he came back. Otherwise, I enjoyed this issue. Good dialogue, good action.

I know some folks don't like Winnicks run, and that's all cool. But for those that were indifferent/enjoyed it, I think it was a good pseudo-finish (while still waiting on learning how it happened in the annual.)

LG

Aufbach

02-26-2006, 07:36 PM

Overall, I thought it was a decent issue. That said:

Disliked:

--Batman saying "it ends tonight" for what seems like the 100th time during this arc. Because we all damn well know, by now, that it ain't gonna end tonight.

--Batman wins, but ultimately (seems to) lose. When was the last time Batman actually won? I like the heroes to win every now and then.

--The ending. I know it's tying into IC and all that, but I thought this issue had lots more potential (based on the dialogue) to actual resolve something rather than (apparently) falling back on the whole multiverse thing again.

Liked:

--Dialogue between Jason and Bruce, with the Joker's sick attempts at humor intermingled in between. This is sort-of the conversation we've been waiting for, for some time. And honestly, I pretty much agreed with Jason throughout most of it. I understand Bruce's reasoning, but Jason's ultimately seems more rational. Note that Bruce doesn't directly respond to Jason's logic.

Finally, the Joker didn't dodge the Batarang. Batman ricocheted it off something behind Jason and hit him. Reminds me of back when Batman was competent. Looks like it hit Jason in the neck or shoulder. But no way it killed him. Now the large explosion . . . that's something else.

CURSD BLADE

02-26-2006, 08:54 PM

So um, I L O V E D ! ! ! this freakin' issue

I thought Winick's run on this title was amazing and this issue was the perfect ending. Jason's motivation of the past year of terror was so emotionally riveting and surprising.

The dialogue exchange between Bruce and Jason was borderline poetic and so emotional. The entire issue was so well paced, the action flowed nicely, Eric Battle's pencils were so dark and exaggerated and delicious.

I miss Mahnke, but Battle was a nice fill-in. This last year plus was a creative high for the book over the past five or so years IMHO. I am left salivating for OYL and will truly miss Winick on Batman.

Guts/Batman

02-26-2006, 11:48 PM

There are about 12 clayfaces, might've been one of them. who knows?

Actually, if continuity has this correct, there is only one Clayface. All of the rest of them are gone...

Guts/Batman

02-26-2006, 11:50 PM

Worst.
Issue.
Of.
Winick's.
Run.

Period.

I know we have the same feeling of Winick's run on Batman but I have to disagree. Last issue was the worst of the bunch, IMO.

Winick has just taken all of the fun out of reading his comics. Also, how the f*** did Joker blow that C4 up. You can't just shoot C-4 and have it blow up...

My god what a screwed up and nonsensical run.

Guts/Batman

02-26-2006, 11:54 PM

I'm saying that the writers at DC are going to have to do a hell of a lot of good explaining to make his return sound believable.

As I have said on a few threads, there is only one way out of this for DC. Undo the universe...

Batman's continuity is very screwed up. Joker's is even worse. It's scary...

The Shadow

02-27-2006, 08:55 AM

Nothing happened? I know you hate Winnick, but damn.

Well... Joker blew up (again), Batman and Red Hood talked ad nausiem (again) and Batman proved he was unable to get past Jason (again).

So yeah... I know stuff happened... but VERY unoriginal stuff that once again proves Batman in a boob because he can't get past someone he trained to try and save Dick.

For a GREAT Batman story read Detective Comics 815 and 816.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=110751

MUCH better than ANYTHING Winick has written.

Lubichev

02-27-2006, 09:08 AM

Jaye

02-27-2006, 09:10 AM

Its like everyone has different comic in front of them.

seaflower

02-27-2006, 09:25 AM

Its like everyone has different comic in front of them.

My thoughts exactly.....

Nick Kal

02-27-2006, 10:34 AM

Well... Joker blew up (again), Batman and Red Hood talked ad nausiem (again) and Batman proved he was unable to get past Jason (again).

So yeah... I know stuff happened... but VERY unoriginal stuff that once again proves Batman in a boob because he can't get past someone he trained to try and save Dick.

For a GREAT Batman story read Detective Comics 815 and 816.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=110751

MUCH better than ANYTHING Winick has written.

Oh is that the story where Dr. Zsazs murders, again?

See I can make something that's good sound like shit too. :)

Violently Apathetic

02-27-2006, 10:52 AM

So yeah... I know stuff happened... but VERY unoriginal stuff that once again proves Batman in a boob because he can't get past someone he trained to try and save Dick.

You say 'someone he trained' as if its totally impersonal. Jason isn't some kid he trained in some weekend seminar, he's Batman's son as much as Dick is, regardless if he's deserving of such love.

*shrugs* I liked it. I have a few issues with Winick's arc/s in Batman, but I thought this was a solid end that at last managed to get the EMOTIONAL confrontation between Jason and Bruce that the two have been lacking since the get go. Sure, there have been quite a few physical confrontations that involve one-sided emoting on Bruce's side, but this is the first time we've seen an emotion from Jason that wasn't contempt or mild annoyance. Ignoring a few technical problems (Since when did C4 explode with a gunshot? Where the Hell does this issue take place? What is up with the ART?!) I still enjoyed it because I've wanted to see an emotionally distraught Jason from the time he was first re-introduced. Up until this time we've been presented with Jason's very pragmatic explanation to why he is doing what he is doing but as is usually the case there is a very raw and visceral emotional reason for what he's doing and it is only with this issue that it's made clear to see. It seems sad to me that the moment Jason drops his cool and collected facade and reverts back to emotional person he is, he loses, just as his lack of self control over his feelings in the past lead to his demise.

Anyway, even though I understand the criticism this issue is getting I think it's a little harsh to the point I have to wonder if people are really reading objectively...

The Shadow

02-27-2006, 10:52 AM

Oh is that the story where Dr. Zsazs murders, again?

See I can make something that's good sound like shit too. :)
Yeah... BUT he didn't kill Alfred and Bruce used that to his advantage by using Alfred as bait!

The "should I do it?" verses letting Zsazs remain free to kill again showed Batman is capable of OUTSMARTING his adversaries despite the personal risks and the heartwarming ending was great!

See... I can make something good sound even better ;)

Nick Kal

02-27-2006, 11:01 AM

Yeah... BUT he didn't kill Alfred and Bruce used that to his advantage by using Alfred as bait!

The "should I do it?" verses letting Zsazs remain free to kill again showed Batman is capable of OUTSMARTING his adversaries despite the personal risks and the heartwarming ending was great!

See... I can make something good sound even better ;)

Or something completely boring and useless as a story not even sound appealing at all.

Well... Joker blew up (again), Batman and Red Hood talked ad nausiem (again) and Batman proved he was unable to get past Jason (again).

You see in the comic I read Batman and Jason had a high stakes final confrontation in which it was revealed to us Jason's true feelings and why he's doing what he is.

The Shadow

02-27-2006, 12:19 PM

You see in the comic I read Batman and Jason had a high stakes final confrontation.
Huh... I thought there was STILL MORE of this story to come... in the annual.

Guts/Batman

02-27-2006, 12:39 PM

"High stakes confrontation" you say? You see this would actually mean something if the Bat-books were good and healthy. Batman didn't let Joker kill/maul Hush. Batman didn't let Cassius Clayface out of Arkham for his own selfish reasons.

Mrs. Freeze doesn't get put into a Lazarus Pit only to become the newest Bat-villain. OMAC nonsensicalness in Robin and OMAC Project. Leslie Thompson was not the murderer of Stephanie Brown. JLA 120/121 didn't happen.

It all trickles down. That's continuity for you.

And if the last 5 issues weren't bad filler.

The funny thing is that none of that will matter when IC #5 comes out and the universe gets rearranged...

...cuz that is the only way out of this for DC. They have written themselves into a corner here. And if the universe doesn't get rearranged and Joker and Jason come out of this alive, DC has just reached a new level of nonsensicalness.

And that Detective story, we finally get to see the real Batman after all this time. He was drinkin at the bar with his buddy, the real Darkseid, and all of a sudden got put into a story. Hopefully the real Darkseid gets to be in a story soon, too.

But the real Batman is back at the bar with Darkseid. Superman has been at the bar but he isn't sitting at the bar with his buddies quite yet. You know how Superman gets when he gets drunk. :D

As for the whole "arc", a series of events that are not linked together very well. And what's worse is that it made Joker's personal continuity and timeline that much WORSE to understand.

Black Mask being in this story was utterly rediculous. Why the Hell was he even in this story? And just when I thought a character couldn't become over exposed in one single book, I was wrong.

Joker was not used properly. The timeline of events in the Bat-verse is thrown wayyyyyyyyyyy off track. Even more so than it was. Way to cram as much story in one issue as possible Mr. Winick.

No references to the following events: RoE exploding, Crisis of Conscience, War Crimes, Spectre's shadow over the city. Continuity works for a reason...

Guts/Batman

02-27-2006, 12:42 PM

Its like everyone has different comic in front of them.

Indeed.

I don't read comics that way I have in the past. The way that DC has chosen to tell their stories is, I tend to look at it from a more analytical point of view. I understand why and how people just choose to let the nonsensicalness of this book in particular pass, but at this point...I can't and won't.

Fortunately, it's OYL.

agentofthebat

02-27-2006, 12:49 PM

just read it. WOW i liked it. I think joker is going to be out of the picture but i dont think jason and batman are. Plus is the endind have to do with what happen at the end of IC4?

Violently Apathetic

02-27-2006, 12:53 PM

I don't read comics that way I have in the past. The way that DC has chosen to tell their stories is, I tend to look at it from a more analytical point of view. I understand why and how people just choose to let the nonsensicalness of this book in particular pass, but at this point...I can't and won't.

I suppose that's fair. I am so much more character driven than plot driven that the payoff of FINALLY seeing Jason act like a human being allowed me to almost completely overlook some of the nonsensical plot elements. I wouldn't have cared if a giant pink plot bunny had descended from the sky, waved a magic wand and said;

'Batman has split himself into two people, that's why he seems to be in two places at once. The Batman in IC/Nightwing also happens to be the Batman with basic reasoning skills and the ability to properly throw a Batarang. This C4 explodes due to gunshot because the gun had special bullets. They all survived the explosion because I, the Pink Plot Bunny (of Death!)™ said so.'

so long as I got my character interactions. Sure, the Joker's presence seemed odd, but that's because he wasn't there as an important character, but as a tool for Jason. He wasn't stealing the show because this wasn't his story, it was Jason's story (and possibly his second Swan Song, but I doubt it)

That said, I want to see how another writer handles Jason/the Red Hood.

Guts/Batman

02-27-2006, 01:13 PM

I suppose that's fair. I am so much more character driven than plot driven that the payoff of FINALLY seeing Jason act like a human being allowed me to almost completely overlook some of the nonsensical plot elements. I wouldn't have cared if a giant pink plot bunny had descended from the sky, waved a magic wand and said;

'Batman has split himself into two people, that's why he seems to be in two places at once. The Batman in IC/Nightwing also happens to be the Batman with basic reasoning skills and the ability to properly throw a Batarang. This C4 explodes due to gunshot because the gun had special bullets. They all survived the explosion because I, the Pink Plot Bunny (of Death!)™ said so.'

I would have loved the pink bunny coming in myself. It probably would have made much more sense than what actually happened. ;)

I am much more character driven as well but it all has to fit together. There is a certain balance that must be achieved and Judd did not achieve that balance. The funny part is that with Manhke on the art, he didn't have to go that far...

The story can't be so nonsensical as to distract the reader from the characters, which Winick has done in his run. Berserk and Hellsing are my two favorite comics, both violent as hell and really f***ed up stuff happens in those series but the author makes sure not to distract the reader from the characters.

Watchman

02-27-2006, 01:14 PM

Its like everyone has different comic in front of them.
In a way, we all do. :)

The Shadow

02-27-2006, 02:03 PM

I think joker is going to be out of the picture
heheheh it's funny that the Joker "died" in issue 650 of Batman... because waaaaaaaaaaaay back in issue #1 of Batman the Joker was "killed" as well... and we all know how long people stay dead in comics... especially an iconic villain like The Joker.

agentofthebat

02-27-2006, 03:35 PM

true that but still when did he had time to be blowen up when he was beating the crap out of hush and batman had to think about saving hush? I think joker wont be around for awhile but he will show back up.

Guts/Batman

02-27-2006, 03:56 PM

Joker will be back. But the question will be how. I can't see how he survived but the universe is about to be undone so there is a way to undo this event (which is the only out of this for DC).

Joker's personal timeline is so utterly ****ed up that we can't tell when any of these stories happened.

Nick Kal

02-27-2006, 04:07 PM

I suppose that's fair. I am so much more character driven than plot driven that the payoff of FINALLY seeing Jason act like a human being allowed me to almost completely overlook some of the nonsensical plot elements. I wouldn't have cared if a giant pink plot bunny had descended from the sky, waved a magic wand and said;

'Batman has split himself into two people, that's why he seems to be in two places at once. The Batman in IC/Nightwing also happens to be the Batman with basic reasoning skills and the ability to properly throw a Batarang. This C4 explodes due to gunshot because the gun had special bullets. They all survived the explosion because I, the Pink Plot Bunny (of Death!)™ said so.'

so long as I got my character interactions. Sure, the Joker's presence seemed odd, but that's because he wasn't there as an important character, but as a tool for Jason. He wasn't stealing the show because this wasn't his story, it was Jason's story (and possibly his second Swan Song, but I doubt it)

That said, I want to see how another writer handles Jason/the Red Hood.

Not, don't agree with that b.s dude. Basically Guts/Batman is saying... "I don't see how everything fits in thus I don't understand anything thus it sucks."

The story isn't done...

Also, High Stakes final confrontation in Batman... yes. The annual may or may not be set in the present. It could just be the story of Jason.

ShaggyB

02-27-2006, 05:23 PM

Winick has just taken all of the fun out of reading his comics. Also, how the f*** did Joker blow that C4 up. You can't just shoot C-4 and have it blow up...

Please stop reading then, you should pick up the book; see who writes it and place it back down.

He pressed the button on the detinator jason dropped by the way. he just used the gun to do it

SdotCopp

02-27-2006, 05:56 PM

Watchman

02-27-2006, 08:10 PM

Please stop reading then, you should pick up the book; see who writes it and place it back down.

Then this whole forum would be a bunch of people just agreeing with eachother on everything, and that's no fun at all, is it?

Watchman

02-27-2006, 08:14 PM

The story isn't done...

Yes it is. A new arc is starting. All we're waiting for is the Annual, which, according to the solicits, is only going to explain the Red Hood's origin (IE how he's back, where he's been, etc.). Judging by what's written in the solicits, I can almost guarantee there's going to be no more touching up on this issue, and what's happened to the characters.

Nick Kal

02-27-2006, 09:13 PM

Yes it is. A new arc is starting. All we're waiting for is the Annual, which, according to the solicits, is only going to explain the Red Hood's origin (IE how he's back, where he's been, etc.). Judging by what's written in the solicits, I can almost guarantee there's going to be no more touching up on this issue, and what's happened to the characters.

Oh man I'm sorry. We have Dan DiDio right here on the boards.

CURSD BLADE

02-27-2006, 09:18 PM

who was the colorist on the issue? Anybody know? I am in the process of reviewing it for my school paper, yet I am in my dorm and the issue is at home (1 1/2 away). Can't remember off the top of my head. I know Eric Battle penciled it and Rodney Ramos inked it.

Watchman

02-27-2006, 11:05 PM

Oh man I'm sorry. We have Dan DiDio right here on the boards.
Yes, all high and mighty Nick Kal, just tell me, what sort of source do you have that the Annual is even going to talk about what happened in this story?

Is that all you can do, insult me? Perhaps you could provide some sort of evidence to back yourself up. I got my info directly from the solicit. The Annual is dedicated to answering questions on the return of Jason Todd, not "what happened in issue #650?" and "what's happening with the story now?". The story is over. Period. The arc is over. A new arc is starting next month.

Read the solicit: http://www.dccomics.com/comics/?cm=4930

It mentions nothing of what happened in the last few issues.

EDIT: To add....

Perhaps "guarantee" was too strong a word for you. Perhaps you misunderstood me. I am highly highly highly doubting that Winick and other future writers are going to touch up on this issue. For these reasons:

1) A new arc is starting in the next issue.
2) The Annual's solicit mentions nothing, absolutely nothing, about this issue.
3) Even so, this issue has nothing to DO with the Annual.
4) The Annual is about the return of Jason Todd.
5) The story and plot for the Annual were probably set before the plot for issue #650 was made.

Now my question to you: what makes you think they are going to go back and talk about this damned issue, which is probably going to be reset later on anyway? I see absolutely no reason.

Guts/Batman

02-27-2006, 11:17 PM

Please stop reading then, you should pick up the book; see who writes it and place it back down.

He pressed the button on the detinator jason dropped by the way. he just used the gun to do it

What is one more issue. I already have every other issue in the run besides #636. I'm glad to see that your SoD can handle it. Mine can't.

I don't think this is how you push a button. Fortunately his run is at an end. I'll get the Annual for laughs, though. Does my pointing out the rather erroneoss SoD denting flaws in the story prevent you from enjoyed.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1662/batman6502a4bx.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batman6502a4bx.jpg)

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/541/batman6503c8iq.th.jpg (http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batman6503c8iq.jpg)

Mon-el

02-27-2006, 11:26 PM

Guts/Batman

02-27-2006, 11:30 PM

Basically Guts/Batman is saying... "I don't see how everything fits in thus I don't understand anything thus it sucks."

That's not what I am saying at all. What I am saying that it doesn't fit together in the least and the plot elements don't mesh within the story. Continuity is something else entirely, which this story also adds to the contininuity Hell.

The plot elements in this "arc" were "I turned my brain off when I wrote this" retarded. I expect more from a writer getting paid by a company to put this together and do it well. And Winick failed on all fronts in this arc.

That's fine if you let it pass, but I won't. Your standards are different from mine. That's fine.

What I want to hear from your is why you think this story is technically sound from a writing point of view. This Humpback Whale was so leaky a whale could fit through the plot holes.

Guts/Batman

02-27-2006, 11:34 PM

Oh man I'm sorry. We have Dan DiDio right here on the boards.

You say this like we trust Didio's words...

Indefatigable

02-28-2006, 05:27 AM

The Bat-office has been totally out of the loop it's made me crazy. Thank god Schreck is out and thank god we have Robinson coming on Wednesday. I'm glad it seems someone higher up noticed.

agentofthebat

02-28-2006, 07:09 AM

kind of sucks i wish we could have had 1 more issue do you think that in 52 any of this might be talked about?

Violently Apathetic

02-28-2006, 07:17 AM

Not, don't agree with that b.s dude. Basically Guts/Batman is saying... "I don't see how everything fits in thus I don't understand anything thus it sucks."

Oh, I'm not agreeing with assessment of the issue, I still think, despite its faults, that it was a solid, emotional issue. I am agreeing, however, that he and I are clearly judging the comic based on different criteria and I can accept his opinion based on that, even if I don't agree with it. I still enjoy the Red Hood, I thought Winick did a decent to good job (I admit he loses a lot of points for the filler-ish nature of some of the issues, but I at least considered it entertaining filler) and I'm hoping to see another writer's take on the character he created.

CURSD BLADE

02-28-2006, 09:41 AM

Colorist: Alex Sinclair
Letterer: Pat Brosseau
Ass. Editor: Brandon Monteclare
Editor: Bob Schreck

Much appreciated

zebop

02-28-2006, 11:51 AM

I've just read the entire thread and I've got to say I'm a bit surprised nobody has pointed out how this entire argument between Batman, the Joker and someone who knows Batman's identity and demands to know why Bats doesn't kill the Joker has ALREADY played out in A.J. Lieberman's final story with Bats, Hush and the Joker.

And it wasn't anymore satisfying than Judd Winnick's final story. Proving once again, he is the DC version of Brian Bendis.

I just don't buy Batman's confession that he has fantasized about torturing and killing the Joker, but can't cross the line because he won't be able to cross back. Oh, please. Batman never "defeats" the Joker. He just beats him up, puts him away for a few weeks and does the same tired old dance over and over and over.

The characterization of the Joker jumped the shark through overexposure, no sense of continuity and an unfortunate storyline in Gotham Central where the Joker was shot several times in the chest and survived wounds that should have killed him.

Crime without punishment isn't any more satisfying in comics than it is in real life. The characterization of the Joker as a lethal killing machine that is like a force of nature has gone on so long that the Joker is probably second only to Galactus when it comes to killing.

The Joker's victims have included men, women, and even children. An issue of Hitman in 1996 stated that the Joker had once gassed an entire kindergarten class. While not stated, it is widely believed that his personal toll of victims is well into three figures. Despite having killed enough people to get the death penalty hundreds of times over, however, he is always found not guilty by reason of insanity. He is then placed in Arkham Asylum, which he appears able to escape from seemingly at will. In fact, it is hinted the Joker will deliberately allow himself to be captured so he can "unwind" at Arkham before his next scheme.

In the 1996 special issue "Devil's Advocate," the District Attorney of Gotham City used a once-in-a-lifetime loophole to have the Joker found guilty and sentenced to death. However, Batman found the fact that the Joker did not take credit for the crime in question out of character, and soon discovered the bitter irony: the Joker was about to be executed for the one series of murders he didn't commit. The Joker was in the electric chair and about to be killed when Batman managed to bring the true guilty party to justice.

There have been times when Batman has been tempted to put the Joker down once and for all, but has relented at the last minute. After capturing the Joker in one story, he threatens to kill his old foe, but then says "But that would give you the final victory, making me into a killer like yourself!" (However, in the Hush storyline, Batman was perfectly willing to kill the Joker after he had apparently murdered Bruce Wayne's childhood friend Thomas Elliot. Only Commissioner Gordon's interference stopped him.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joker_%28comics%29

If One Year Later and Grant Morrison can somehow solve the trap of the Joker being an unstoppable murderer and Batman a hapless enabler, then the whole relaunch will be well worth it. :rolleyes:

Forefinger

02-28-2006, 12:24 PM

I hated this issue. I know that Batman wouldn't knowingly let someone die, but fatally wounding Jason to save Joker? Crap. These past couple of issues have made me seriously consider dropping Batman.

The Shadow

02-28-2006, 01:10 PM

Judd Winnick's final story. Proving once again, he is the DC version of Brian Bendis.
Nah... Bendis can at least write good dialogue!

The Shadow

02-28-2006, 01:12 PM

These past couple of issues have made me seriously consider dropping Batman.
Stick it out!

Robinson is on for 4 issues and then Morrison takes over!

Hope is on the horizon!!!!!!

jetter_cheeze

02-28-2006, 01:30 PM

What I want to hear from your is why you think this story is technically sound from a writing point of view. This Humpback Whale was so leaky a whale could fit through the plot holes.

Because if you are just reading Batman and not getting into all the infinite crisis stuff, everything makes sense except for the final page.

I'm all for open discussion, but when your only arguement is that this writer sucks, which is basically what you are saying in every post you have written Guts, you're not making an arguement. Seriously, we get you don't like winnick, so why are you wasting your hard earned dollars on something that isn't satisfying you? Why not go and put it into some other comic that you might enjoy more? Are you getting it just so you can sit here and complain about it? Serisouly, that is a huge waste of time.

Guts/Batman

02-28-2006, 02:33 PM

I have made an argument. But not one based in emotion but based in fact. I am basing this on plot elements. Why was Black Mask even in this story? Why the Hell was Captain Nazi even in this arc? Why was Black Mask just left on the street? Why the Hell did that C-4 explode when shot at with a gun?

The more I think about it, the more I think Suspension of Disbelief doesn't cover this. It's just stupid fiction. And I guess, the Annual will be my last piece of stupid fiction on paper I will intentionally get.

When it boils down to it, I guess I am saying that Winick's run on Batman has sucked. But it has sucked for plot reasons and not emotion reasons. I am enjoying it but not for the reasons DC would want me to be.

As for why I am still buying it. It's still entertaining me. It's good for a laugh or two. It always provides a few "WTF?!?" moments. Almost as funny when Superman manhandled Darkseid in S/B.

It's no "The Thing" or "Birds of Prey" in entertainment value.

It's so hilariously bad that it is entertaining. Besides, it's only $2.50.

And you're right, if you aren't reading IC (like I am, and not sure why anymore) then this actually might make sense (though Black Mask is still a gigantic plot hole). But since this is in continuity Winick needs to at least make an attempt at referencing past events. I know it isn't easy to get all of that in 22 pages.

But damnit, at least try. His Green Arrow is just as bad.

So if I were to say "God, that sounds stupid." when reading what happened, what are the chances I would get a "Well, you should read it first before calling it stupid."?

Guts/Batman

02-28-2006, 02:36 PM

Guts/Batman

02-28-2006, 02:40 PM

[QUOTE=Forefinger]I know that Batman wouldn't knowingly let someone die, but fatally wounding Jason to save Joker? Crap./QUOTE]

He did in GK #74....

Violently Apathetic

02-28-2006, 02:57 PM

Guts/Batman

02-28-2006, 03:06 PM

Okay, now you're starting to sound like an typical fanboy. The fact of the matter is that we can't assume he wasn't 'trying,' simply because a story failed to 'wow' you specifically. It does not indicate a lack of effort on the writer's part. While you're certainly entitled to your opinion and aren't alone in it either, I think it's silly to say he isn't TRYING because you are not amused.

You're right. That was a bit strong. Either Winick is not in the loop at DC or something else is going wrong in the communication lines at DC because neither his Green Arrow or Batman is connecting in any meaningful way.

From the outside looking in, it really doesn't look like Johns and Winick are on the same page.

Toss in his dialogue with Doc Light in Green Arrow ("I'm more honest because I rape") and the pointless and meaningless deaths of Cap Nazi, half of Mia's high school and his whole entire city...

If his goal was to make people hate Doc Light, he succeeded in doing that.

I didn't read Firth Thunder. Mostly because of the art so I won't comment on it. I want to like every story I read, but I can't and won't turn off my brain for fiction.

jetter_cheeze

02-28-2006, 03:17 PM

I have made an argument. But not one based in emotion but based in fact. I am basing this on plot elements. Why was Black Mask even in this story? Why the Hell was Captain Nazi even in this arc? Why was Black Mask just left on the street? Why the Hell did that C-4 explode when shot at with a gun?

Black Mask was made the Crime king of Gotham, which personally i didn't think would work but i gave it a try. Why wouldn't Black Mask be included when Jason Todd is killing all his soldiers? and after Todd betrayed him?

Why Captain Nazi? Well, if the society wanted to show how much power they thought Black Mask had over Gotham and how big his problems mattered to the rest of the society, why not send him captain Nazi just to insult him?

If you could reference to which time black mask was left on the street, i'll be happy to answer that one has well. The C-4 question got answered above, which i think makes sense.

All I've seen of an arguement as been that you didn't like something or didn't understand a situation or scene in the book and therefore it must have sucked and the writer must suck for writing something you don't understand. Within the Batman title, within what Winick has written is a complete story. Reading it on its own without trying to put it into the bigger crisis event makes sense and makes it a good story. I had problems trying to fit it into the bigger crisis picture(hell, i had the same problem at first with the latest teen titans) but when i took it out of that picture and read it on its own it made sense.

Forefinger

02-28-2006, 03:26 PM

Stick it out!

Robinson is on for 4 issues and then Morrison takes over!

Hope is on the horizon!!!!!!
Allright! I forgot all about Morrison! I've been dreaming of a Morrison written Batman title since his JLA days. I'm going to stick it out! Thanks!

Forefinger

02-28-2006, 03:33 PM

[QUOTE=Forefinger]I know that Batman wouldn't knowingly let someone die, but fatally wounding Jason to save Joker? Crap./QUOTE]

He did in GK #74....
Well, Batman is the only bat title that I read, well I guess Nightwing, but anyway, I didn't read GK 74, but it doesn't surprise me. I'm one of the people that thinks that Batman's letting the Joker live is the same as Batman killing the people himself, well maybe not that bad, but Batman should do something permanent about Joker. Kill him, cripple him, lobotimize him.....something to keep him from killing his family members and people in general. These past few issues have been the only ones of Winnick's run that I haven't liked. The others were funny, action oriented, and had some good character development (something Batman is lacking in most books that he appears in). Anyway, this crap of Batman not killing Joker and choosing to mortaly wound Jason instead of letting him kill Joker, it's almost as bad as turning Leslie Thomkins into a murderer. What the hell are the Bat editors smoking?

Anyway, Morrison hurry up and get here and give me a Batman that I can stand to read!

Guts/Batman

02-28-2006, 03:34 PM

What I don't get is why Winick decided to start the Joker part when he did. And then when he did, he wasted one issue of it. As it is written, Black Mask is there and it does make sense.

I am not looking at it from "Just another Batman" arc. I don't read continuity books that way. Not after Sacrifice.

I think he should have started it earlier. Black Mask should have been doing something else. Or let Pfeiffer just handle it in Catwoman as he did. That is still the most rediculous part of this arc.

I'm still wondering why Alex didn't send Deathstroke to cut Black Mask's head off in #647. Why would Alex want such a bad loose end like Black Mask in charge of Gotham City?

The Gotham City gangs bow to anyone who shows any kind of strength these days. Why not put Deathstroke or someone like that in charge of the gangs? This doesn't say much for Alex here.

I wished that he would have used the Killer Croc-Black Mask feud that had potential in #642. Black Mask has already dealt with Batman. Some villain who had a better reason to go after him should have been pegged to do it. Killer Croc was perfect.

While Batman/Red Hood/Joker was going on we could have had Croc/Black Mask going on. That would allow the Joker/Jason/Bruce thing to more brought out and finished and prevent Jason from becoming overexposed like he was.

We also get to see how Black Mask deal with a near mindless creature who wants to snack on his brains. In turn, we get Black Mask turning to The Society from help instead of us wondering why Deathstroke didn't kill Black Mask when they met in #647.

And once again, you are right. If you look at this arc by itself, it turns out to be better than it was but when you are writing a continuity book in a middle of a massive cross-company crossover, you don't get that leeway you would if it wasn't in the middle of a massive crossover event.

There are certain things that you have to do. You have to reference events to prevent people from interrupting their reading to say "WTF?!?" so when you do bring in a changing event (like Chemo dropping on Bludhaven), it doesn't stop the reader mid issue.

DCKar2nist

02-28-2006, 03:48 PM

I think the point of all this is "it gets worse before it gets better" I'm sure there going to pull something out of their asses after IC, they've said their going to make Batman a brighter (less of a dick) character then he's been portrayed this past decade. Course I dont see that happening given the current events in throughout his books but we'll see.

DCKar2nist

02-28-2006, 03:48 PM

Or is that a rumor?

Geardaddy

03-05-2006, 01:18 PM

The Shadow

03-05-2006, 01:59 PM

I especially liked the motive we learned from Jason in this issue. It actually made me sympathetic towards Jason when he told Bruce why he was so angry. I think people tend to be pretty hard on Winick (sometimes justified, but often not, IMO), but Judd hit the ball out of the park with this issue.
What? That Jason is still a whiny little boy with a complex? Instead of going TO Bruce he decides he should ruin his life?

Instead of just going after the Joker, killing him and ending it, he goes through the whole elaborate Hush affair (what happened to the white streak in his hair?) for revenge... on the guy who tried to help him and save him and who has never gotten over his death?

That's why Judd gets the bad rap... because there was never a good reason for bringing back Jason... this coupled with the Superboy Prime "punching reality" crap serves no purpose.

Choppa

03-05-2006, 03:41 PM

Well as I believe you know, there is a lot of evidence that supports the idea that HUSH was going to be revealed as Jason Todd, so assuming that's true, Winick had to pull a lot of illogical things together to make this story work.

Violently Apathetic

03-05-2006, 04:47 PM

Instead of just going after the Joker, killing him and ending it, he goes through the whole elaborate Hush affair (what happened to the white streak in his hair?) for revenge... on the guy who tried to help him and save him and who has never gotten over his death?

Shadow, the reason for Jason's anger towards Batman is pretty heavily implied. He hates the Joker, sure, but he feels betrayed by Batman, a man whom he loved and thought of as a father, so his anger with Batman is an entirely different animal than his anger towards the Joker. He can't see the way Batman has suffered as a result of his death because all he can focus on is the fact that Batman didn't avenge him, he believes that Bruce ultimately chose his morality over his son (and Batman conformed this belief in issue 650) It's not non-sensical, in fact I think it's pretty in character that his anger would cloud his reason. He's let it become the motivating factor in his life and it's directed at the man whom he feels hurt him the most. That's not too difficult to understand, IMHO.

The Shadow

03-05-2006, 05:14 PM

because all he can focus on is the fact that Batman didn't avenge him, he believes that Bruce ultimately chose his morality over his son
I agree... and here's where shoddy storytelling comes in again... what would lead Jason to think Batman would avenge him by killing the Joker in cold blood?

And lets not forget he almost did... only Superman stopped him.

But why would Jason think that? Another check for the "bad idea" box.

Violently Apathetic

03-05-2006, 06:33 PM

I agree... and here's where shoddy storytelling comes in again... what would lead Jason to think Batman would avenge him by killing the Joker in cold blood?

And lets not forget he almost did... only Superman stopped him.

But why would Jason think that? Another check for the "bad idea" box.

Because of the way Jason views justice. I've mentioned before that Jason's all about emotion, what he said to Batman, that if it had been Batman who had been killed by the Joker, then Jason would have hunted the Joker down and ripped him to pieces, is completely true. Jason simply cannot FATHOM that someone else, even someone as analytical as Batman, would not do the same if someone they loved was murdered. He's never understood Batman's morality, but the differences between the two had never been more apparent. I figure he thought that the murder of your child would be the one thing that transcends your morality, the one thing that would motivate you to act out of anger and hatred. He just doesn't understand Batman. I don't think it's bad writing, I think it's being true to Jason's character, he's emotional, shortsighted and narrow minded, because he'd kill someone who murdered his loved one he cannot grasp that someone else would not do the same. So from that he may have concluded that Batman either did not love him, or simply loves being 'morally right' more than he loved Jason.

jaguarshark

03-05-2006, 07:00 PM

I'm torn over this issue. I loved it for the most part, especially the dialogue between Bruce and Jason. Like others have posted, it really helped me to understand Jason's character, and like him even more. It also explains why he hadn't already killed the Joker- because he wanted Bruce to do it.
Having said that, I hate important issues of story arcs that tie into some company-wide event. Maybe it's just me, but I think the resolution of a storyline that has essentially run through the Bat-books for a decade and a half deserved better than an IC tie-in. I haven't been following IC, so the last page confused the hell out of me.
All the talk about fate, combined with the last page, made me feel that Jason was destined to die by the Joker's hand one way or another, in every timeline, but I hope not, because I like the new Jason, and OYL covers seem to show him running around anyway.

GeorgeG

03-06-2006, 10:43 PM

That ending had me completely confused. Explosion. Batman walks out and Jason & the Joker don't? Then that whole echo effect thing, whatever that is. I enjoyed Winick's run on Batman, except for those last pages--not to mention the art just wasn't up to par.

With Jason's little speech mirroring Hush's in GK 74, honestly, it just seems to me that Winick didn't even write this last issue and just got the credit for it.

mohammedali

03-07-2006, 06:36 AM

Don't worry about the ending. There were a few odd endings which finish just before the different reality characters page (Batman = Batman from different earths in the same pose). Chances are, these events never happened.

Mohammed Ali

GeorgeG

03-07-2006, 09:34 AM

And that's why I disliked it so much. I enjoyed the entire Red Hood saga in this title and then I get this crap ending. And for what really? IC? There was no reason that the story couldn't have ended on its own merits and not be linked to IC.

ShaggyB

03-07-2006, 02:38 PM

ok we have all read it now, the ending is confusing considering bats was outside of haven talking to nightwing after the chemo bombing.

push that aside and it was good on its on.

As for the joker being alive why didnt bats kill being bad story telling.... read annual and learn that jasons whole memory of being killed by joker was restored to him in a laz pit, he then was haunted by the fact that joker still ran free. he blamed bats for that. In his mind had bruce been killed by joker, he would have killed joker and therefore thought the same should apply to bats. Wrong but understandable.

If you dont like this logic then you dont like the death penalty nor do you believe in the theory of an eye for an eye. If you dont understand this logic then you are just incapable of grasping concepts that dont mesh with your own personal believes, needless to say vengance is a primal emotion and should not be this difficult to understand.

Its not stupid, what jason thinks, its just selfish and a bit below the normal thought process that batman adhears himself to. It should be easy for us, the reader, to go well batman wont do this because he feels this way about death and murder, but at the same time we should be able to understand why jason is so distraught and emotional about jokers living. Its a tragedy in the very essence of the word. I left feeling bad for jason and understanding him on a new level. I applaid the dialogue in this book because it allowed for the above to be impressed upon me.