Wolverine: Bone claws(??) & origin

[Paul Kersey]

I was reading up on the thread about Spiderman having spikes in his arms and it was mentioned that Wolverine's bone claws were a retcon and that originally the claws were not part of his body.

Can anyone explain this to me? I always thought his mutant power was the ability to pop out claws and also the healing factor and that the adamantium was given to him by the professor.

[twilight]

Wolverine originally had bone claws and the healing factor.

It was the healing factor that let him survive having the adamantium bonded to his bones.

[Jake V]

Well, originally, the claws were supposed to be in the gloves only. Then they were revealed to be inside his arms. The Weapon X story revealed how they bonded adamantium to his skeleton. It was implied at that point that the claws were implanted in him by Weapon X and pure adamantium. Of course, in that story, everyone was pretty surprised when the claws popped, so it was sort of left up in the air. Later, after Magneto ripped the adamantium off his skeleton, it was revealed that the claws were made of bone and were always a part of his body. After that him always having bone claws were the official story. The Origin miniseries cemented this by showing him pop the claws when he was like 14.

[Wagner Time]

Well, originally, the claws were supposed to be in the gloves only. Then they were revealed to be inside his arms. The Weapon X story revealed how they bonded adamantium to his skeleton. It was implied at that point that the claws were implanted in him by Weapon X and pure adamantium. Of course, in that story, everyone was pretty surprised when the claws popped, so it was sort of left up in the air. Later, after Magneto ripped the adamantium off his skeleton, it was revealed that the claws were made of bone and were always a part of his body. After that him always having bone claws were the official story. The Origin miniseries cemented this by showing him pop the claws when he was like 14.

Which was wrong.

The entire point was that when Wolverine first re-entered the danger room, after fatal attractions, and instintively tried to pop his claws the bone claws that appeared were a total shock to both him and the reader.

That was heavy. Up to that point he'd always believed that the claws were metal appendages added to him by the Weapon X project.

[Jake V]

Which was wrong.

The entire point was that when Wolverine first re-entered the danger room, after fatal attractions, and instintively tried to pop his claws the bone claws that appeared were a total shock to both him and the reader.

That was heavy. Up to that point he'd always believed that the claws were metal appendages added to him by the Weapon X project.
Yeah, well the whole Weapon X program has ways of erasing memories and implanting fake ones. It was also implied in Origin that his healing abilities may also "heal over" traumatic memories as a way of repairing his psyche.

But I would have figured the fact that even in the 90's, Wolverine didn't remember his origin would have still allowed the reveal of the bone claws to be a surprise to him and the reader, even if he did pop them at a much earlier time.

Both stories can exist. Neither has to be wrong.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Yeah, well the whole Weapon X program has ways of erasing memories and implanting fake ones. It was also implied in Origin that his healing abilities may also "heal over" traumatic memories as a way of repairing his psyche.

But I would have figured the fact that even in the 90's, Wolverine didn't remember his origin would have still allowed the reveal of the bone claws to be a surprise to him and the reader, even if he did pop them at a much earlier time.

Both stories can exist. Neither has to be wrong.

While I kind of agree with you that maybe 'Wrong' is a bit of an extreme word to use I do largely agree with Wagner Time, here.

Origin, like most wolverine 'revelation' stories of the past few years, has done very little to improve upon his backstory.

The kid wolverine popping his claws in particular annoyed me, too. That moment after Fatal Attractions was a bold, dramatic, canon moment in Wolverine's history. It certainly shocked me, when I read it. Perhaps moreso than actually seeing Magneto tear the metal through his body in the first place.

Scenes like that in Origin, I feel, dilute the dramatic effect of more important stories, which have come before.

[Jake V]

While I kind of agree with you that maybe 'Wrong' is a bit of an extreme word to use I do largely agree with Wagner Time, here.

Origin, like most wolverine 'revelation' stories of the past few years, has done very little to improve upon his backstory.

The kid wolverine popping his claws in particular annoyed me, too. That moment after Fatal Attractions was a bold, dramatic, canon moment in Wolverine's history. It certainly shocked me, when I read it. Perhaps moreso than actually seeing Magneto tear the metal through his body in the first place.

Scenes like that in Origin, I feel, dilute the dramatic effect of more important stories, which have come before.
Dilutes the effect? What are you, reading wolverine stories in chronological order or something?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Dilutes the effect? What are you, reading wolverine stories in chronological order or something?

No, but Origin is backstory, written later.

Fatal Attractions was a big moment in X-Men history, and I believe if you're writing new material of any kind, which effects something already out there it should complement rather than contradict existing information.

And trying to explain it away with the whole "His head's been messed up anyway, he could forget it" concept is lame, in my opinion.

[bat2supe]

Personally, I always though that the bone Claws were a lame attend to minimize the effect of Magneto ripping the adamantium off Logan's skeleton.

Wolverine was supposed to have pure adamantium claws & so, as a consequence of Fatal Attraction, Wolverine was supposed to have lost his claws & when everybody know that it wouldn't be permanent, that would open to great & new stories.
At least, showing that Wolverine can be a hero & can work without them.

Now, we have a lot of annoying & convoluted stories that make a simple concept more complicated unnecessarily (his healing factor taking care of his psyche: come on).

IIRC, all Wolverine powers & origin weren't approached before a certain amount of Uncanny's issues. Especially the healing factor which appeared in Uncanny X-Men 142 when Pyro burned him.
BUT: I can be wrong on that one.

Plus, in a lot of issues where the X-men were depowered by some devices, Wolverine always kept the control of his claws.

In Uncanny 150, Cyclops made a listing of the X-Men habilities when they were depowered by Magneto & cited Wolverine Claws when even his senses were a mutant power.
In Uncanny 179, Wolvie depowered by the Leech said that his claws were mecanics.

[TinMan]

No, but Origin is backstory, written later.

Fatal Attractions was a big moment in X-Men history, and I believe if you're writing new material of any kind, which effects something already out there it should complement rather than contradict existing information.

And trying to explain it away with the whole "His head's been messed up anyway, he could forget it" concept is lame, in my opinion.

I agree and disagree here. I really don't think it dilutes FA's implications at all, because BWS obviously wasn't thinking to hard when he wrote Weapon X.

Think about it, considering that the Weapon X program had such advanced technology, don't you think they would have x-rayed his ass before they bonded the adamantium to his skeleton? They would have known that he had bone claws in his arms from that point, but it was never told as such. So how could these "scientists" screw the pooch that bad and not have any idea they were there? To contradict that though, they were surprised that he had them after he popped them, so that means they didn't INTEND to put them in him. Which leads us to one of two conclusions: the guy that ran the x-ray machine was sick that day or BWS just didn't pay that much attention to his story to get the details right.

Wolverines "claw origin" is just as convoluted as his whole past, so I don't see the reason of nitpicking. Considering the problems with BWS's "Weapon X" I can buy the fact that the elimination of his memories is why he can't remember having them before that point.

[TinMan]

Personally, I always though that the bone Claws were a lame attend to minimize the effect of Magneto ripping the adamantium off Logan's skeleton.

Wolverine was supposed to have pure adamantium claws & so, as a consequence of Fatal Attraction, Wolverine was supposed to have lost his claws & when everybody know that it wouldn't be permanent, that would open to great & new stories.
At least, showing that Wolverine can be a hero & can work without them.

Now, we have a lot of annoying & convoluted stories that make a simple concept more complicated unnecessarily (his healing factor taking care of his psyche: come on).

IIRC, all Wolverine powers & origin weren't approached before a certain amount of Uncanny's issues. Especially the healing factor which appeared in Uncanny X-Men 142 when Pyro burned him.
BUT: I can be wrong on that one.

Plus, in a lot of issues where the X-men were depowered by some devices, Wolverine always kept the control of his claws.

In Uncanny 150, Cyclops made a listing of the X-Men habilities when they were depowered by Magneto & cited Wolverine Claws when even his senses were a mutant power.
In Uncanny 179, Wolvie depowered by the Leech said that his claws were mecanics.

Ya, but I don't think nitpicking that hard is going to accomplish anything. Look at some of the more current stories when he has lost his powers, he started to suffer from "adamantium poisoning" because his healing facter wasn't fighting it off anymore. Thats way more realistic than what happened early in his career when his powers were shut off. Even if his claws were in the gloves, were originally bone, all adamantium, whatever, he still would have suffered effects of having like 100+ lbs of metal in his body w/o his healing facter. Not to mention that w/ his powers shut off he would have blead to death if he popped them.

Its simply history that has been piece mealed together, it just shows a real lack of thought on his creators part to actually flesh him out and give him a history and definites before he first appeared. I can take it all w/ a grain of salt considering how several creators have messed w/ him over the years and had to develop a history that his original creator never did. It just goes to show how little some creators cared about having believable characters back then.

[bat2supe]

But how can one plate steal in fusion on a skeleton?

That's the true question.

I've read that Byrne though that the adamantium was supposed to be each bone replaced by a pure adamantium prosthesis (at least, that was more realistic).

i agree with TinMan when he points the fact that Weapon X scientist didn't know about the claws & were surprised by their appearance.

[Neolucifer]

I agree with TinMan here ... back then they didnt clearly choose one way or another anf left it unclear ... then each following writers did what they wants .

[TinMan]

But how can one plate steal in fusion on a skeleton?

That's the true question.

I've read that Byrne though that the adamantium was supposed to be each bone replaced by a pure adamantium prosthesis (at least, that was more realistic).

I agree here. It just doesn't make sense; for his bone claws to be as strong as they would have to be to keep from breaking they would have to be pretty thick, but when they were bonded w/ adamantium they all of a sudden got really thin? WTF?

I do like Byrne's idea there and it would have been much better had they pursued that route, but unfortunately its to late for that.

i agree with TinMan when he points the fact that Weapon X scientist didn't know about the claws & were surprised by their appearance.

Yep, BWS got a lot of praise for many years about how good that story was and I agree in some respects, but he didn't pay enough attention to his own details to make it accurate. There are just to many loopholes that don't make sense.

[MythicBrawn]

Fleshing out a character's origin before they are introduced would have prevented all of this. Wolverine was supposed to be another plain hero when he was introduced. His popularity lead to his current state. Claremont has stated that he wasn't sure what Wolverine's powers were when he first joined the X-Men. It wasn't until later in the series that he started demonstrating a healing factor. It's the same with the claws. At first, they were supposed to be part of the gloves. But, Claremont declared that they should be a part of his body or anyone that got the gloves could be Wolverine.

Wolverine is similar to Cable. Since both were introduced without having a real origin, writers made it up as they went along. Unfortunately, what one writer may have tried to establish as canon conflicted with some other history point. So, another writer would try to fix it and make it worse. I like Wolverine but he's a little overrated. Cable could disappear and never return. That character has ALWAYS sucked, IMO.

[Neolucifer]

I agree here. It just doesn't make sense; for his bone claws to be as strong as they would have to be to keep from breaking they would have to be pretty thick, but when they were bonded w/ adamantium they all of a sudden got really thin? WTF?

And it shouldnt need to make sense ... hardly any super powers of the MU makes senses in a scientific way ... all that matter is that it respects to some extent Marvel's own approach of sciences , physics and magic .

Wolverine is similar to Cable. Since both were introduced without having a real origin, writers made it up as they went along. Unfortunately, what one writer may have tried to establish as canon conflicted with some other history point. So, another writer would try to fix it and make it worse. I like Wolverine but he's a little overrated. Cable could disappear and never return. That character has ALWAYS sucked, IMO.

Yeah i agree with most of that part . But now both characters have been fleshed out , especially Cable .
Have you tried Cable Deadpool ? while the first arc imo really sux , the book gives Cable a new whole dimension , and makes him a great character , beyond the gun totting , power-crippled moronic time warrior .

[TinMan]

And it shouldnt need to make sense ... hardly any super powers of the MU makes senses in a scientific way ... all that matter is that it respects to some extent Marvel's own approach of sciences , physics and magic.

I disagree. Some things can be left to the suspension of disbelief, but this is such a simple one that it really shouldn't be. I mean are we to believe that the human skeleton is much stronger in the Marvel universe that it is in our own? Sure in some cases it would seem that way because of the way characters get beat around, but bystanders get messed up really easy, so it doesn't make sense in that respect. In this specific case it would make more sense to explain it as the orinial bone claws were removed and new adamantium ones put in their place, thus removing the unneccassary mass of the bones.

Then it could have been explained later that when his adamantium was removed his body regrew his natural bone claws because the adamantium ones were no longer taking up that space. Thats just more feasible to me.

[streator]

it's been mentioned that wolverine's own healing factor suppresses bad memories. so not even counting weapon x interference, he could have forgotten about the events of origin/having bone claws all along.
i think more so in recent times a problem has been where the claws come out of his hands. in the movie and by some artists, they come out kind of in-between his fingers. older depictions (and some recent ones as well) still have the claws coming out the back of his hands. it's not that big of a deal, but i wish marvel would settle on one or the other.

[TinMan]

it's been mentioned that wolverine's own healing factor suppresses bad memories. so not even counting weapon x interference, he could have forgotten about the events of origin/having bone claws all along.
i think more so in recent times a problem has been where the claws come out of his hands. in the movie and by some artists, they come out kind of in-between his fingers. older depictions (and some recent ones as well) still have the claws coming out his palms or so. it's not that big of a deal, but i wish marvel would settle on one or the other.

Which I think the whole "healing factor heals bad memories" thing is friggin stupid! A bad memory doesn't leave physical damage that needs to be healed, therefore it makes no sense at all.

I think you need to change that about his claws though. Up until the movie his claws came out the BACK of his hands, not the palms. After that they've bounced between the backside and between the fingers, honestly I don't care how its depicted, its more up to the artist than anything.

[SlightlyMad]

I agree and disagree here. I really don't think it dilutes FA's implications at all, because BWS obviously wasn't thinking to hard when he wrote Weapon X.

Think about it, considering that the Weapon X program had such advanced technology, don't you think they would have x-rayed his ass before they bonded the adamantium to his skeleton? They would have known that he had bone claws in his arms from that point, but it was never told as such. So how could these "scientists" screw the pooch that bad and not have any idea they were there? To contradict that though, they were surprised that he had them after he popped them, so that means they didn't INTEND to put them in him. Which leads us to one of two conclusions: the guy that ran the x-ray machine was sick that day or BWS just didn't pay that much attention to his story to get the details right.

Wolverines "claw origin" is just as convoluted as his whole past, so I don't see the reason of nitpicking. Considering the problems with BWS's "Weapon X" I can buy the fact that the elimination of his memories is why he can't remember having them before that point.

Wasn't the BWS Weapon X book written before the bones claws retcon? I believe it was (but will stand corrected if someone can prove otherwise), so I think we can cut him some slack.

[TinMan]

Wasn't the BWS Weapon X book written before the bones claws retcon? I believe it was (but will stand corrected if someone can prove otherwise), so I think we can cut him some slack.

Oh yeah, it was written in the early to mid 80's as I recall, the bone claws didn't show up til like 93 or 94.

But the fact of the matter is that the X-Ray plot hole exists, the fact that he neglected to even address that X-rays existed and it shows bone structure leaves that plothole. I wouldn't be surprised if that was left out, but I find it a poor choice because its now coming back to bite them in the ass.

[Giant Guy]

BWS did the Weapon X storyline in Marvel Comics Presents around 1991 and 1992. The Fatal Attractions Storyline was a crossover around 1993 and 1994.

The fact that Wolverine pops the claws in Wolverine #75 is not ruined by Origin. Wolverine did not remember anything from before the Adamantium bonding process. So he would not have known if he had claws or did not have claws. After he popped the bone claws in #75 he even said he suspected they were already there. A good friend of mine at the time had called out this plot point long before the issue was released.

As far as the X-rays went just because they did not discuss it does not mean they did not know. I know it is not in continuity but in the Animated Series when they showed the adamantium bonding process it was clear they knew the bone claws were there because they had 3 adamantium bars on top of each of Wolverine's wrists.

[TinMan]

BWS did the Weapon X storyline in Marvel Comics Presents around 1991 and 1992. The Fatal Attractions Storyline was a crossover around 1993 and 1994.

The fact that Wolverine pops the claws in Wolverine #75 is not ruined by Origin. Wolverine did not remember anything from before the Adamantium bonding process. So he would not have known if he had claws or did not have claws. After he popped the bone claws in #75 he even said he suspected they were already there. A good friend of mine at the time had called out this plot point long before the issue was released.

As far as the X-rays went just because they did not discuss it does not mean they did not know. I know it is not in continuity but in the Animated Series when they showed the adamantium bonding process it was clear they knew the bone claws were there because they had 3 adamantium bars on top of each of Wolverine's wrists.

Agreed, but that is a hole they filled in for the cartoon. In BWS's Weapon X, Cornelius and "the docter" are both surprised he had them because they never intended it. Thus they never knew they were there until he popped them for the first time after the adamantium bonding process. It was only shown in subsequent issues that they had the three independent sticks of adamantium on his hands, at least as I recall it.

[bat2supe]

For me, they only put the bone claws after Fatal Attraction because they were too scared to have a Wolverine without claws for several issues & because I'm pretty sure they didn't know how they will manage to put the adamantium back & more important where that "new" statu-quo were supposed to go.

Personally, I think that having a wolverine with mechanical claws is more interesting but that's only my thoughts.

[streator]

I think you need to change that about his claws though. Up until the movie his claws came out the BACK of his hands, not the palms. After that they've bounced between the backside and between the fingers, honestly I don't care how its depicted, its more up to the artist than anything.
yeah, i meant the back of his hands. not sure why i said palms. i'll edit.

[Stix]

Moving away from the claws debate which is really flawed, I remember in one of the early issues of Wolverine v2 he fought a "god" who had fought him in the 1000's. Origin completely ruins this. According to Origin he was born in the 1800/1900's.

My memory is a bit fuzzy about the exact details. I'll have to go hunt for it. Does anyone wlse remember this?

[Valen]

Moving away from the claws debate which is really flawed, I remember in one of the early issues of Wolverine v2 he fought a "god" who had fought him in the 1000's. Origin completely ruins this. According to Origin he was born in the 1800/1900's.

My memory is a bit fuzzy about the exact details. I'll have to go hunt for it. Does anyone wlse remember this?
I've never heard of that before, but I wasn't reading Wolverine back then either. That sounds a little lame. I imagine it is just one of those stories that everyone has agreed never took place.

[Paul Kersey]

@bout Byrne thinking that Wolverine had had every bone in his body replaced with an admantium copy sounds interesting. That might explain an image I saw in either the Weapon X story or Wolverine #50 where there is a brain with needles sticking out of it along with a pair of eyeballs floating in a large liquid filled chamber. No wonder he can't remember anything before that, that traumatization of being reduced to that state, and having to heal back. But then again, thats a little too much, can Wolverine regenerate from that state? I saw in a Punisher issue where his lower half was disintigrated but he healed back.

Wasn't it in Days of Future Past that Wolverine's claws were considered a mutant power? He has the sentinal collor around his neck which alerts sentinals if a mutant is using his/her power and he mentions that he can't pop his claws for fear of activating it.

And do I understand this right? The professor in Weapon X abducted Logan to bond adamntium to his bones but before that could happen Logan popped his claws suprsing the professor and others? So does that mean he always had bone claws?

[DDM]

@bout Byrne thinking that Wolverine had had every bone in his body replaced with an admantium copy sounds interesting. That might explain an image I saw in either the Weapon X story or Wolverine #50 where there is a brain with needles sticking out of it along with a pair of eyeballs floating in a large liquid filled chamber. No wonder he can't remember anything before that, that traumatization of being reduced to that state, and having to heal back. But then again, thats a little too much, can Wolverine regenerate from that state? I saw in a Punisher issue where his lower half was disintigrated but he healed back.

Wasn't it in Days of Future Past that Wolverine's claws were considered a mutant power? He has the sentinal collor around his neck which alerts sentinals if a mutant is using his/her power and he mentions that he can't pop his claws for fear of activating it.

And do I understand this right? The professor in Weapon X abducted Logan to bond adamntium to his bones but before that could happen Logan popped his claws suprsing the professor and others? So does that mean he always had bone claws?


No, originally Wolverine's claws are aritificial made of pure adamantium. For example, read the flashback in Uncanny X-Men #139-140 when Wolverine discovers his claws to the future Guardian, James McDonald Hudson. In another flashback to Wordl War II from Uncanny X-Men #268, Wolverine does not have his claws yet as shown throughout the story. The same holds true for Wolverine's WWII appearance in X-Men: True Friends #1-3.

The bone claws are the retcon since Marvel feared--without adamantium--he would be less effective. Personally, I believe the bones claws are a major mistake. But the bone claws could be easily rectified.

[Paul Kersey]

I guess that explains that one fight between him and Sabertooth. The one thats illustrated by Bill Scienkwiecz (sp) where his girl is killed by Sabertooth. The whole issue Wolverine never popped his claws.

[DDM]

I guess that explains that one fight between him and Sabertooth. The one thats illustrated by Bill Scienkwiecz (sp) where his girl is killed by Sabertooth. The whole issue Wolverine never popped his claws.


Yes, in the flashback of Wolverine #10, Logan had no adamantium or claws to help himself against the more massive & more powerful Sabretooth.

[Citizen V]

I once read that Wolverine`s claws might be part of his forearm bones,that can actually detach,and when sheathed,it slides back into place.There was a scene from X-Men TAS in the 90`s that actually showed this.It may not be true.

The bone claws i thought was a great idea,but Wolverine does need his Adamantium.I liked how the bone claws were used for a bit of history strengthening.But they were pretty useless.

I never liked the 'Origin' story,i dont consider that part of continuity,where Wolverine "remembers everything".I read more than once that Chris Claremont never intended to fully reveil Wolverine`s past,just give bits and pieces.Wolverine is ment to have the allure and mystery,that is what makes him great.

[DDM]

I once read that Wolverine`s claws might be part of his forearm bones,that can actually detach,and when sheathed,it slides back into place.There was a scene from X-Men TAS in the 90`s that actually showed this.It may not be true.

The bone claws i thought was a great idea,but Wolverine does need his Adamantium.I liked how the bone claws were used for a bit of history strengthening.But they were pretty useless.

I never liked the 'Origin' story,i dont consider that part of continuity,where Wolverine "remembers everything".I read more than once that Chris Claremont never intended to fully reveil Wolverine`s past,just give bits and pieces.Wolverine is ment to have the allure and mystery,that is what makes him great.

Marvel is going to ruin Wolverine by supposedly exposing everything about his origin. Once all the mystery is gone, people won't care.

This also works for Rogue.