Batgirl Issue 73 (spoilers)

[Lester C.]

On the one hand I’m ecstatic that such a wonderful character hasn’t been killed off which is a surprise give DC current propensity for killing strong heroines and villainesses. I own all the issues of this book and I’m a tremendous fan of Cass. On the other hand one of the themes of this book is Cassandra finding redemption after killing a man when she child and becoming worthy of succeeding Batman. I find it dishearten that in killing Shiva, for good apparently, she has failed in both missions and has chosen to walk away for the role of Batgirl.

[Indefatigable]

On the one hand I’m ecstatic that such a wonderful character hasn’t been killed off which is a surprise give DC current propensity for killing strong heroines and villainesses. I own all the issues of this book and I’m a tremendous fan of Cass. On the other hand one of the themes of this book is Cassandra finding redemption after killing a man when she child and becoming worthy of succeeding Batman. I find it dishearten that in killing Shiva, for good apparently, she has failed in both missions and has chosen to walk away for the role of Batgirl.So uh...is Shiva her mother?

[Young Avenger]

Issue summary please.

[Hex77]

Shiva died? NO! Damn... I wanted her to become more prominent.

[GoKid]

I dont think Shiva is dead. I dont want to give away how things happen in #73. but after reading it i came away with the idea that Shiva is not dead.


I do belive Shiva will be the new member of the BoP

[Leon Thomas]

I dont think Shiva is dead. I dont want to give away how things happen in #73. but after reading it i came away with the idea that Shiva is not dead.


I do belive Shiva will be the new member of the BoP

Feel free to give it away. It's a spoilers thread. I'm curious.

[Batgrrl]

On the one hand I’m ecstatic that such a wonderful character hasn’t been killed off which is a surprise give DC current propensity for killing strong heroines and villainesses. I own all the issues of this book and I’m a tremendous fan of Cass. On the other hand one of the themes of this book is Cassandra finding redemption after killing a man when she child and becoming worthy of succeeding Batman. I find it dishearten that in killing Shiva, for good apparently, she has failed in both missions and has chosen to walk away for the role of Batgirl.

How were you able to read this already? I just got #72!

[Static-Pulse]

I find it dishearten that in killing Shiva, for good apparently, she has failed in both missions and has chosen to walk away for the role of Batgirl.Motto.

I sure don't mind heroes who murder -- television heroes, ala Stargate, do it all the time -- but when the core of a heroine, one of her strongest traits is against murder... It's just dumb. Much as I like Cass, I think killing her would have been a more respectful end to the series.

[IamtheRock3]

man Cant you guys READ BETWEEN THE LINES

she hanging over the lazurus Pit

The coat about the snap it look like

And batgirl gave a wry knowing smile like she know what she doing

Shiva will be reborn..and maybe get rid of the Crazy

[Guts/Batman]

I'm glad that Cassandra is alive and well but I don't know something happens to her OYL.

But anyways, Rock brings up something I missed. Lady Shiva, existing only after Cassandra's birth, gets killed by Cassandra to hangs her over a Lazarus pit to create a new woman...

Nice subtle message sent.

And yet I feel sad, death becomes more and more and more of a joke.

[IamtheRock3]

I'm glad that Cassandra is alive and well but I don't know something happens to her OYL.

But anyways, Rock brings up something I missed. Lady Shiva, existing only after Cassandra's birth, gets killed by Cassandra to hangs her over a Lazarus pit to create a new woman...

Nice subtle message sent.

And yet I feel sad, death becomes more and more and more of a joke.


in fairness it not like the plan it to be permant or even suggest it permanent and brough her back

Lazrus pit whole deal is to bring people back from the Dead. I am GUESSING..purely guessing the 1 year plays into this. Seem DC writer taking advanatage of the year Jump

Shiva will have a year to get her mess together to decide what team she playing on. She probally be on birds of Prey

[Guts/Batman]

in fairness it not like the plan it to be permant or even suggest it permanent and brough her back

Lazrus pit whole deal is to bring people back from the Dead.

That's fine by the Lazarus Pits have become joke plot devices. I'm glad that Batman destroyed all the ones he could...

[Watery Tart]

I did find the ending a bit confusing/ambiguous. Basically, Cass left Shiva hanging on a hook above the Lazarus pit. On the one hand, there was a close-up panel of the hook which I thought was supposed to imply that the hook would soon tear through and she'd drop into the pit. But on the other hand, that hook looked in way too deep to tear through. The ambiguity left me feeling kind of "eh," which is not the ending I would've liked for this character. I'm glad she's alive, and it would be nice if she got to stick around as a supporting character in the Batbooks, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

But y'all are right, probably the implication was that she would eventually drop into the pit; the art could've conveyed that a little better.

[GoKid]

I dont think Batgirl kill Shiva, she only Broke her neck.

[Guts/Batman]

I dont think Batgirl kill Shiva, she only Broke her neck.

Don't you die when you break your neck?

Also, she just hangs on the hook and manages to survive...? How? My SoD-o-meter would be broken by that point.

"It's comics" isn't sufficient a explanation.

[Static-Pulse]

"It's comics" isn't sufficient a explanation.It's bad comics?

[jerrymcl89]

Cass certainly acted with intent to kill, and when she accepted Shiva's request not to go into the pit, she walked away considering that she had killed her. So morally, it doesn't much matter whether Shiva somehow winds up in the pit and survives. I think the key thing that happened is that Cass rejected Batman's morality with regard to killing.

The key line was the one about the destruction of Bludhaven. "They kill and kill and we just... I could've - I was born to do it, and I didn't.... I'm no hero"

[Static-Pulse]

The key line was the one about the destruction of Bludhaven. "They kill and kill and we just... I could've - I was born to do it, and I didn't.... I'm no hero"I guess she missed the memo that explained that 'Haven was blown up by one of those killing-types of heroes...

Or maybe she just couldn't read the memo.

[GoKid]

How i saw it was, Batgirl broke Shivas neck, Shiva is dieing, so Cass is going to dump Shiva into the Laz pit, Shiva tells her, please dont. So, at her mom's request does not throw her in, instead hangs her by her shirt (or some flesh) knowing that the shirt (or flesh) will give way and she will fall in the Laz Pit BEFORE she dies from the broken neck.

I just dont think Cass would be Cold enough to taunt her mother by Hanging her over the Laz pit to die. She would have just left her on the floor or somthing like that.

[GoKid]

Cass certainly acted with intent to kill, and when she accepted Shiva's request not to go into the pit, she walked away considering that she had killed her. Posted by jerrymcl89

Yes, but...let me get my comic.... 8)

After Cass hangs Shiva over the Pit, Shiva tells Cass "th-thank you"
I see this as Shiva thinking Cass has put here there to die

Then Cass tells Shiva "Sorry Mom" and walks away.
I see this as Cass knowing that she will fall into the pit and will not die

[Indefatigable]

So Shiva is her mother.

[GoKid]

So Shiva is her mother
posted by Indefatigable

yep

[Hex77]

It would seem that way.

[Watchman]

Don't you die when you break your neck?

Also, she just hangs on the hook and manages to survive...? How? My SoD-o-meter would be broken by that point.

"It's comics" isn't sufficient a explanation.
I dunno, I was watching the news and I believe they said there was a hockey player who broke his neck but he's recovered/ing now.

BTW, what's SoD?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Don't you die when you break your neck?

Also, she just hangs on the hook and manages to survive...? How? My SoD-o-meter would be broken by that point.

"It's comics" isn't sufficient a explanation.

Plenty of people have survived having their necks broken. It's not automatically fatal, though it is without quick treatment

[jerrymcl89]

Plenty of people have survived having their necks broken. It's not automatically fatal, though it is without quick treatment

I think when you twist someone's neck far enough to produce a loud cracking noise, they are unlikely to still be able to talk, but that's the real world.

In the book, it's certain that Shiva will die. The out is that she seems pretty likely to fall into the Lazarus Pit,

[Guts/Batman]

I think when you twist someone's neck far enough to produce a loud cracking noise, they are unlikely to still be able to talk, but that's the real world.

In the book, it's certain that Shiva will die. The out is that she seems pretty likely to fall into the Lazarus Pit,

Yea...

Wouldn't Shiva have just had not only her neck broken but also her connection to her brain?

[Lester C.]

It also confirmed that Stephanie is a dead ghost and not a figment of Batgirl imagination as I know a lot of you was hoping that Step would somehow be alive and apart of the bat books after one year later. Stephanie knew things that Batgirl could not like Batgirl’s origin and what happened to Bludhaven. Also it looks the Bludhaven cast of characters we got to know and love before “Destruction Daughter” are dead. Shame as I really liked the Bartista character.

I have a question. Why wasn’t Cass insane after exiting the pitts? She was naturally angry at Shiva but her mind was lucid.

[bert]

posted by Indefatigable

yep


GOOD to see you finally posting, Joe.

I swear, it was like pulling TEETH to get you to join CBR :)

welcome to the CBR family.

(oh, and you should "pimp" where you work. . I talk the place up all the time here)

[Lester C.]

For the record I loved the final writer of Gabreyrich and the rotating art team of Pop Mahn and Al Garza. (Yes I know I am butchering writers and artist names hereand I’m sorry for that) Even Horracks wasn’t that bad once he got rid of the artist they paired him with. Sadly this book was never the same once they got rid of Puckket and Scott. People don’t think fondly of Scott due to his Robin run but during his tenure on Batgirl he was scary good.

[fuaak]

Batgirl breaks Shiva's neck, paralyzing her. When Shiva tells her to finish it, Cass grabs her and tosses her into a giant meathook. Shiva mutters "thank you" and goes limp. They spend several panels studying her motionless carcass, and BG leaves with a smug grin on her lips.

Then there's one last splash page of her walking the streets of some unindentified city in street clothes.

Seems pretty clear to me what happened. The only confusing part is that the hook seems to have gone through Shiva's shoulder rather than any vitals, but I'm going to attribute that to an artist's error.

Oh, and Shiva is definitely Cass's mother.

[xnef1025]

Shiva is(was?) her mother? Well, they're retconning the most important part of 'A Death in the Family', may as well retcon the little stuff too :p

[Static-Pulse]

I finally got my hands on #73...

(4$$ 1$ 73h $h17, d00d!!!1! $h3 1$ k3wl |\|0\/\/ th47 $h3 1$ 4 k1ll3r!!!1! $h3 1$ 73h b0mb, j0! 4 h4\/\/7 b0mb 2! LMAO! w00t!

[Amethyst Rose]

I dunno, I was watching the news and I believe they said there was a hockey player who broke his neck but he's recovered/ing now.

BTW, what's SoD?


Suspension of Disbelief. Something you need a lot of nowadays. Related to PIS- Plot Induced Stupidity.

[Chris Daley]

I agree with the folks that think Shiva will fall into the pit and be reborn. I think this was Cassandra's goal.

I'm just not sure it was one with which I agree (in terms of the role that Shiva plays in the DCU, not in terms of what it means for Cass's character). I fear this, like what was done to Catwoman, is short cut to redeeming the character (realizing of course that the Catwoman's short cut was a ret-con that seems to have put into question the more genuine redemption that Brubaker put her through). I guess I like my Shiva deadly and principal-challenged. I fear that she is going to move solidly into the anti-hero category after she drops into the pit.

Also, I just couldn't tell if Andersen was intentionally leaving things open for both Cass and Shiva so that a future writer could take either of them in many directions (including declaring Shiva dead). Or, if he really thought that the ending was clear due to the dialogue and sly smile. If the former, okay. If the latter, I think we was just trying too hard to be obtuse and I would have preferred a more clear resolution.

My one beef was the disclosure that Shive grew up in Detroit. Maybe that has been her continuity all along and I just missed it, but it seems like a retcon. I always thought she had been born and grew up outside the US (Hong Kong, maybe). However, this story seems to place her childhood in Detroit.

Best,

Chris

[Sharpandpointies]

Less-than-impressed, myself.

Either my favourite character dies, and stays dead.

Or my favourite character dies, and is cheesily reborn.

Plus my second-favourite character ends up betraying the entire point behind her existance (as I see it) - to prove that you can make something better of yourself, no matter what your beginnings. That you can be redeemed, that you can transcend your past. So much for that.

And why didn't Cass go nuts? Did the pit magically fix itself?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Less-than-impressed, myself.

Either my favourite character dies, and stays dead.

Or my favourite character dies, and is cheesily reborn.

Plus my second-favourite character ends up betraying the entire point behind her existance (as I see it) - to prove that you can make something better of yourself, no matter what your beginnings. That you can be redeemed, that you can transcend your past. So much for that.

And why didn't Cass go nuts? Did the pit magically fix itself?

With any luck, that may be an out. 'The Pit' made her do it is a crappy recon, but at least it could be used as a tool to restore the character

[Brack360]

Shiva is(was?) her mother? Well, they're retconning the most important part of 'A Death in the Family', may as well retcon the little stuff too :p

No, they're not. Shiva is one of the most disciplined individuals on the planet. It is entirely plausible that she was able to resist the effects of Batman's truth serum and still be able to lie.

[Brack360]

My one beef was the disclosure that Shiva grew up in Detroit. Maybe that has been her continuity all along and I just missed it, but it seems like a retcon. I always thought she had been born and grew up outside the US (Hong Kong, maybe). However, this story seems to place her childhood in Detroit.

As far as I know, it has been a part of Shiva's backstory that she grew up in Detroit since she first appeared in the 1970's.

[Tequilamokinbrd]

Don't you die when you break your neck?



Nope.


Kurt Angle and Christopher Reeve are two people off the top of my head that didn't.




And not only did Kurt not die, he wrestled with that neck and won a gold medal in the 1996 olympics. This example is also a testament to the fact that death is less likely in a neck breaking if the person who breaks their neck is in top physical condition, which Lady Shiva would of course clearly be in.





You only die if your neck is broken in a certain way and certain conditions are met, don't get me wrong, if you break your neck you're probably screwed and will die, but it's not certain.

[Chris Daley]

As far as I know, it has been a part of Shiva's backstory that she grew up in Detroit since she first appeared in the 1970's.

Brack -

thanks for the info.

Now I have no beef. :-)

Best,


Chris

[Sharpandpointies]

With any luck, that may be an out. 'The Pit' made her do it is a crappy recon, but at least it could be used as a tool to restore the character

Truth.

It occured to me, driving home today, that there is one way they can pull this off semi-gracefully.

Cass, taking a page from Shiva's own book, gets Shiva to let go of whatever guilt she has (certainly guilt has to be a part of what drives her) by killing her, then ressurecting her (allowing her to fall into the pit, that is).

Not the best idea in the world, but it's better than 'It just happens'.

[fuaak]

And why didn't Cass go nuts? Did the pit magically fix itself?
She did, for a while. Shiva imprisoned her with a net gun from her own utility belt until it wore off (it's temporary, remember).

[Static-Pulse]

It occured to me, driving home today, that there is one way they can pull this off semi-gracefully.They already did that.

[fuaak]

I agree with the folks that think Shiva will fall into the pit and be reborn. I think this was Cassandra's goal.
The question is, why is Shiva - who begged her not to resurrect her - satisfied when she dies, if Cass just set her up so that she'll be risen anyway? It's a pretty confusing scene.

[Guts/Batman]

Oh, and Shiva is definitely Cass's mother.

The writing's been on the wall for at least the last few issues. It was just a matter of how they would officially let the Cassandra take the news.

[fuaak]

BG 73:

Let's get the meta-parts relevant to the character's future out of the way first.

Good news: Cass's alive and at large.

Bad news: Other than that, her status at the end of the ish makes it extremely difficult for anybody to use her as Batgirl again, and what are the chances of her having a solo title as a civilian? The most important question in this mess, "will she have a solo title", is a negative - off to the supporting character land with her. If you like her like me, too bad - her appearances per month are about to drop from one title to some tiny fraction.


The issue itself is actually quite well-crafted, far superior to the lead-in issues - see how much focusing on what's important helps? Mhan puts on a fairly good show for his last. His martial arts still look more like breakdancing than fighting, but he draws a smoldering hot Cass and Shiva.

As for the writing, there are no tricks here, no impromptu lame villains and no Mr. Freezes jumping from bushes. The mother is decisively revealed, and promptly slain by Cass, and I don't have a problem with either move. Shiva (oh, yeah, spoiler warning) was always the one character who was destined to end up either being killed by Cassandra, or paralyzed for life and tauntingly left alive by her, even if the main principle of life being sacred to her would remain intact (remember, Shiva wants to die, so it's more akin to assisted suicide). The short fight scene between them doesn't compare to the original, but Mhan gives it a fair try.

What does confuse me is the flip-flopping with the ending. Cass snaps Shiva's neck and throws her into a meathook hanging above the lazpit. The art shows the hook going through a small bit of flesh in the shoulder area, of which more than one reader has deduced that Cass simply set Shiva up for a time-triggered resurrection, yet Shiva - who begged Cass not to resurrect her - appeared satisfied with the setup when she died. So which way is it?

The rest of what happens in the issue is the Dramatic Transformation - in the beginning, Steph's Ghost tips her hand and shows Cass something Cass couldn't possibly know even subconsciously, specifically the destruction of Bludhaven*. This is enough to make Cass apparently throw her life-defining ideology out of the window. She decides on the spot that having killed the society-related people she's met recently would have prevented the whole deal, basically repeating Nyssa's argument from a couple issues back; a full 180 degree turn.

No, I didn't find it particularly convincing.

More interesting was the bit of backstory of how Shiva held back because of her love for her kindly sister, Carolyn, and how David Cain killing Carolyn set Shiva free - and how it mirrors Cassandra's own ultimate decision that Batman holds her back, and she's got to leave him.

This all seems to be setup for a colder Cass who's willing to kill in order to stop deaths. I've got to admit that I like how it counteracts the annoying "kiddying up" of what I think is inherently one of the darkest characters in the DCU. However, the development doesn't strike me as very natural - Cass's refusal to kill wasn't out of convenience or some high-and-mighty moral principle, but rather her personal, character-defining trauma; she was scared to death of the thought of people dying, because she understood so well what it meant. That's not something you just throw away when the going gets tough. Plus, it diminishes another one of the traits that separate Cass from standard Tough Chicks, her empathy: cold-hearted killers are a dime in a dozen, genuinely empathic ones not so much.

That said, I would be interested in seeing where a good writer would go with this, but as long as she's relegated into the supporting characters' limbo, it's not going to matter.


The next we'll see of Cass is apparently going to be the 1YL arc in Robin. After that, who knows. As I'm really not interested in anything published by DC that isn't directly related to Cassandra Cain, and am frankly quite ticked off by how her enormous potential has been wasted and how she's being swept under the rug, I imagine I'll be posting here rarely if at all. This wasn't such a bad place; ta ta for now.


A random note: Assuming Shiva stays as maggot food, I wonder what happens to her massive cult? You know, the Thuggees who already live in mortal fear and reverence of Cass? Do I smell a hostile takeover?


*) Aside: Notice how EVERY damn Bludhaven-related story in the past couple months acts as if it was always only Nightwing's turf? Nobody expresses any concern for BG or Robin when Chemo goes off. So much for War Games doing anything to the status quo. Other than killing Steph, I mean.


Oh, and one more thing: One final Cassandra sketch by Pop Mhan.
http://www.popmhan.com/bb/viewthread.php?tid=570

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/455/cassie2ev.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Hot.

[Guts/Batman]

The question is, why is Shiva - who begged her not to resurrect her - satisfied when she dies, if Cass just set her up so that she'll be risen anyway? It's a pretty confusing scene.

It's a good way for DC to get around Cassandra killing someone. But that's the non-in story reason.

I think the writers tried to pull of a big metaphor in this issue. When Cassandra was born, the girl that Cain saw died. Born was "the Lady Shiva".

When Cassandra killed her, and brings her back, "the Lady Shiva" will be dead. And another person will be born.

Now, that took some reflection to get that so I could be reading stuff into it.

[Nate Palm]

Well the most I can say is at least they didn't rape then kill Cass. So what does this leave for Lil' Cain? It sounds like she's gonna go around killing super-villians now.

[Sharpandpointies]

The question is, why is Shiva - who begged her not to resurrect her - satisfied when she dies, if Cass just set her up so that she'll be risen anyway? It's a pretty confusing scene.

Glad I'm not the only one who thought that....

VERY nice picture.

[Lester C.]

I think Batgirl always wanted to have a normal life that was, since her birth, denied her. Her book has a happy ending and she is off riding in the sunset. I was afraid that they were going to end this book the way the ended Azrael or even Xero.

[Violently Apathetic]

I've gotten to the point that I'm very easy to please. All I want was for Cass not to die and I got my wish. Upon pondering it for a while I'm satisfied with the ending, though not ecstatic...though who would be thrilled with a good series ending? Besides that though, I have a lot of the same questions that fuaak was mulling over.

[Indefatigable]

Seriously, what was the point of War Games.

And well, I guess I'm also glad she's still alive.

[Guts/Batman]

Seriously, what was the point of War Games.

You're not the only one asking that question...

[Maleficentogre]

Seriously, what was the point of War Games.


to make a new trade event.

[heretic]

The question is, why is Shiva - who begged her not to resurrect her - satisfied when she dies, if Cass just set her up so that she'll be risen anyway? It's a pretty confusing scene.
Not when you consider Cassandra has bigger issues with Killing than Bruce does.

HTG

[Agentum]

Not when you consider Cassandra has bigger issues with Killing than Bruce does.

HTG
well, lets compete in who is the most dangerous and grim but would never ever kill :D

[Lester C.]

Seriously, what was the point of War Games.



Wargames would have had a much bigger impact in it hadn''t for Infinite Crisis making all the storyline changes moot.

[fuaak]

Not when you consider Cassandra has bigger issues with Killing than Bruce does.

HTG
You miss the point. Shiva was apparently convinced that she would die for good. She begged Cass not to rez her, and was relieved when she tossed her into the hook instead of the lazpit.

So, unless Shiva is a complete idiot, the implication of the scene cannot have been that she'd eventually fall into the pit.

[Static-Pulse]

Aren't Lazarus Pits a one-shot deal?

[Captain Jim]

Just wondering some things.

It appears at this point, from upcoming solicitations, that Robin is somehow getting blamed for Batgirl's apparent death. I wonder what that's all about?

Also, I wonder if Batman may think that too? Bruce and Tim are supposed to be on the outs OYL, I wonder if that could be why?

Finally, I'm wondering if Cassandra might resurface in Birds of Prey?

It now seems pretty unlikely that Shiva will be the new Batwoman, as some have suggested. I think it's unlikely that Cassie will either.

[Starba]

Finally, I'm wondering if Cassandra might resurface in Birds of Prey?

It now seems pretty unlikely that Shiva will be the new Batwoman, as some have suggested. I think it's unlikely that Cassie will either.

As much as I was also wishing that Cass would jump over to BoP, solicitations tell us that the final fate of Batgirl isn't clarified until issue 3 of Robin OYL, and the increased roster of BoP starts, I'm assuming, from the cover of issue #1 OYL. We can always hope, though!

As far as Shiva, why do you think it's unlikely that she'll go on to be Batwoman? Being reborn after seeing the heroism of her daughter as Batgirl seems a pretty good excuse to me.

[Guts/Batman]

Aren't Lazarus Pits a one-shot deal?

Heh.

Not Nyssa's...

[Guts/Batman]

Wargames would have had a much bigger impact in it hadn''t for Infinite Crisis making all the storyline changes moot.

War Games did have a big impact. It had many conclusions that drive Batman stories right now.

Stephanie dying. Why do you think Robin and Batgirl now are/were the protectors of Bludhaven?

IT had a ton of impact. Especially when you consider the fact that DC needed Batman a specific way for IC to work. And War Games was the final nail in the coffin to get him that way.

[Sean Whitmore]

Fantastic analysis fuaak. I don't think I agree with all of your conclusions, but I just wanted to say you thought them out extremely well.


SEAN

[Lester C.]

War Games did have a big impact. It had many conclusions that drive Batman stories right now.

Stephanie dying. Why do you think Robin and Batgirl now are/were the protectors of Bludhaven?

IT had a ton of impact. Especially when you consider the fact that DC needed Batman a specific way for IC to work. And War Games was the final nail in the coffin to get him that way.

With Bludahaven gone, Batgirl cancalled, the rumors about Robin new direction, all of those changes are now moot. As for Batman being a certain way it looks like Infinite Crises is going to change all that. I'm not saying that these changes are bad and I loved Wargames so I'm not slaming the bat books. I'm just saying that all of the impacts that Wargames had is mostly gone.

[VietN]

Guts is saying that War Games is a PART of what Batman is going through in IC. If you actually feel that Batman IS making a transition then it did have an impact.

[heretic]

You miss the point. Shiva was apparently convinced that she would die for good. She begged Cass not to rez her, and was relieved when she tossed her into the hook instead of the lazpit.

So, unless Shiva is a complete idiot, the implication of the scene cannot have been that she'd eventually fall into the pit.
Actually, she was expecting to be tossed in and in too much shock to recognise the hook at a mere delaying tactic.

Very few think at thier best with a broken neck.

HTG

[marshal99]

I think it's fair to say that the book ending is leaving it open as a way to some other writer to resurrect Lady Shiva if they so chooses.

[milly3cat]

Does this mean that Cass has new powers now, Is she batwoman or what ???

[Sharpandpointies]

New powers? What?

No. Don't know about Batwoman, but I didn't see any (more) evidence of metahumanhood from Cass.

[Guts/Batman]

Guts is saying that War Games is a PART of what Batman is going through in IC. If you actually feel that Batman IS making a transition then it did have an impact.

Exactly.

The changes were not permanant of course. Some of them are now moot but we can't deny that War Games doesn't have any impact on what Batman is going through in IC.

And for the record, I think War Games was an absolute disaster. Just all around bad.

[fuaak]

The changes were not permanant of course. Some of them are now moot but we can't deny that War Games doesn't have any impact on what Batman is going through in IC.
Yes we can. What part of WG has played any part in InfC? Other than the general "bad things happen" theme? All of InfC follows from the retcons in IdC.

War Games was hyped as setting a brave new status quo for years to come. That was its whole point, to set up a new status quo, and for a tiny while, it did. All the satellite Bat titles changed settings, started new long-term plotlines (many of which ended up being left permanently unresolved) with new supporting characters, there was bold talk about new beginnings and all that, but when Inf Crisis was announced (something that had been planned for years and years, they said - doesn't sound too likely), they all entered a crunch mode where everything they had barely had time to set up had to be tied up as fast as possible.

It's pretty obvious that at least on the writer level, probably on the editor level as well, when these people were picking up the pieces of WG, they had no idea that a reset button was about to be pushed a few short months later. War Games' one and only point was to set up a "status quo" that ended up lasting about an eyeblink, robbing WG out of any justification it had for its existance, and the readers of all the affected series out of various potentially good stories that ended up being untold.

[Nodrog]

I'm wondering what the future holds for David Cain... :confused:

Is he going to continue to stay low in the cells? When is he gonna bust out?

[Damo]

That depends entirely on his cell's minibar, now doesn't it?

All joking aside, this was one heck of a dissapointment. Maybe I've been spoiled with Japanese fodder like Lone Wolf and cub and Blade of the Immortal, but that fight scene was decidedly unimpressive, especially as the swan song of such an interesting character. I do like the "post crisis origin" of Shiva, but it's a pity it had to come at the end of a lousy arc that gave us a particularly sorry assed League of Assassins (it used to have Merlyn and Bronze Tiger. The most well known guy in this incarnation was Shrike), the near criminal act of making the tragic Nora Fries into the lame Lazarra, and the downright pathetic introduction of Mad Dog and his Gollum-like speach pattern.

I could almost forgive that stuff though, because Shiva's new origin is quite good (if you skip over the scene with her kicking Cain's ass while apparently 8 months pregnant...). But the super-ambiguous bit with Shiva hanging over the pit (apparently put in to drive fans nuts) is enugh to cancel that coolness out. And having Cass abruptly betray what's been driving her for all the years we've known her, that moves this ending into "bad" territory for me. She's gone from being heir apparent to the bat mantle to being another "I killed someone, so now I can never get the Bat-prefix again" character. You need only look at Azrael to see how well that turns out in the long run.

Looking back on the entire series' run, there were some decidedly cool moments, and Cass has been a great character. But for every good plot there's been two or three that were just phoned in, and Cass' potential was barely touched upon. I gotta say, when all is said and done my overall reaction to the series is probably "what a shame". =|

[Captain Jim]

War Games was hyped as setting a brave new status quo for years to come. That was its whole point, to set up a new status quo, and for a tiny while, it did. All the satellite Bat titles changed settings, started new long-term plotlines (many of which ended up being left permanently unresolved) with new supporting characters, there was bold talk about new beginnings and all that, but when Inf Crisis was announced (something that had been planned for years and years, they said - doesn't sound too likely), they all entered a crunch mode where everything they had barely had time to set up had to be tied up as fast as possible.

It's pretty obvious that at least on the writer level, probably on the editor level as well, when these people were picking up the pieces of WG, they had no idea that a reset button was about to be pushed a few short months later. War Games' one and only point was to set up a "status quo" that ended up lasting about an eyeblink, robbing WG out of any justification it had for its existance, and the readers of all the affected series out of various potentially good stories that ended up being untold.

I think you make a very good point. It's impossible for me to believe, for instance, that the new Robin & BG in Bludhaven storylines were intended to be so short lived. Perhaps some people were planning IC for years and years, but it sure doesn't look like the Batman team was in on the plan.

[Starba]

Looking at this interview with Anderson Gabrych, it's pretty clear that at the very least what happened to Bludhaven (not to mention the cancellation of Batgirl) were relatively last-minute editorial mandates:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=4907

It's a shame, really, because I feel that Gabrych was one of the very few people to actually "get" Cass as a character, even if some of the plotlines have been kind of goofy as of late.

As far as War Games, I think editorial mandate may have had a lot to do with its tone, since IC's been somewhat of a redemption game for Batman, but I still blame Bill Willingham for it being so bitter and, well, bad. All you have to do is look at last year's Robin to see just how much he doesn't even try to understand younger characters or even make the stories clever and entertaining. Also, since he's been the scribe on virtually all the titles that would have resolved emotional issues related to the death of Spoiler, that resigned her to permanent Woman in Refrigerator territory, since it doesn't feel to me like any editorial mandate had to do with her demise.

[Captain Jim]

Is Gabrych going to be writing any DC titles OYL?

[Guts/Batman]

Perhaps some people were planning IC for years and years, but it sure doesn't look like the Batman team was in on the plan.

This seems to be the case for Batman in general and Judd Winick is particular. Judd's stories seem to be at odds of what is happening in Infinite Crisis. Perhaps by editor mandate, perhaps not.

His current Red Hood arc went from "Red Hood blowing shit up" that was seemingly set in pre-IC #1 time frame then #648 hit and the OMAC showed up, then in #649 Chemo dropped on Bludhaven at the end of the issue and threw everything off.

Both the OMAC (that looks like a friggin robot underneath, but I'm willing to write that off as an artist mistake, for now...) and Chemo dropping reallllyyyyyyyy threw things off.

It doesn't make any sense. Makes me wonder exactly how much Johns and Winick are on the same page, if at all.

[Damo]

It's a shame, really, because I feel that Gabrych was one of the very few people to actually "get" Cass as a character, even if some of the plotlines have been kind of goofy as of late.

Having her kill Shiva then walk away smirking shows he gets the character? *Shakes head.*

[Maleficentogre]

I think rucka had a damn good feel for cass. I think Gabrych dropped the ball on the shiva thing.

[Starba]

Having her kill Shiva then walk away smirking shows he gets the character? *Shakes head.*

I'll admit, that was a bad move, but maybe that was just a big F U to the call to cancel the title. But then again, we don't know that she killed Shiva. No finishing blow; Cass just put Shiva on the hook and she closed her eyes. Cass wanted to put her into the L Pit to heal her, not to resurrect her, right? Maybe that's what the smirk's about: "my way comes out on top." Shiva said it herself that even though Cass wore the Batsuit the decision not to take a life or let anyone be killed was her own.

Besides that, according to the interview above Cass was supposed to continue being Batgirl after the battle with Shiva, had the title not been canceled. If she was supposed to have killed Shiva that would have been rather complicated.

Aside from all of that, you can't tell me that Gabrych didn't write good internal dialogue for Cassandra, even if she was put in some pretty ludicrous situations with some pretty ludicrous antagonists.

[Static-Pulse]

Having her kill Shiva then walk away smirking shows he gets the character? *Shakes head.*I very much doubt Anderson Gabrych had a real say in that decision.

[Rich L]

I thought it was pretty obvious what had happened with Shiva and why Cass was almost smiling at the end; she hung Shiva on the hook as she died, knowing that the fabric of Shiva's top would rip, dropping her into the Lazarus Pit (hence the close-up on the hook and Cass' 'Sorry Mom'). Shiva will return even though it isn't what she wanted.

As for Cass smiling...she's finally got closure; she knows her father, she knows her mother. And she's better than both of them - they take life, as she has done - but she has also given it back to Shiva.

I'm not happy to see the book go, but I am happy with the way it's been ended.

[Damo]

Except that the hook wasn't going through fabric. It was going through Shiva.

Now, yes, eventually Shiva's body will decompose enough to fall off the hook and into the pit. But the pit only works on the dying and freshly dead, and by the time her body's decomposed enough for her to fall, she's not going to be freshly dead.

People hang meat on hooks for a reason.

I have no doubt in my mind that at some point some writer will bring Shiva back. I'm just saying it'll be bad writing - there''s no reason to think that being hung on a meathook that went right through you is a set up to fall off the hook.

[Rich L]

I'll double check, but the way the body was hung it definitely seemed that the hook was going through cloth, not Shiva - especially in the close up.

[Brack360]

Is Gabrych going to be writing any DC titles OYL?

None that have been announced yet, but he posted on the DC Message Boards that he has an upcoming project. It probably won't be a Batman-related comic though, as the creative teams of all of the Batman comics have been announced.

[Damo]

I'll double check, but the way the body was hung it definitely seemed that the hook was going through cloth, not Shiva - especially in the close up.
Page 21 ish. Shiva yells GAAIIIGH! as the hook goes right through her, with blood coming out both entry and exit wounds.

If she was being hung by cloth alone she wouldn't have stayed up long enough for Cass to walk off smirking evilly. The bits with her hanging are very poorly drawn, so I can kind of see why some people are confused. But the hook clearly went right through her.

[LooksBetterDrawn]

Allright look, Shiva was hung over the laz pit, weather or not the hook is in her or just her clothes really does not matter. Shiva is going to fall, she will be back.

Shiva will be back.

[Forsaken_One]

I think the issue is more if Batgirl, in the comic, thought "Shiva will just fall into the pit and be reborn better" or thought "I'm going to kill her." Of course Shiva will be back, that's not even an issue. It's if Batgirl betrayed the ideal she's had since issue one, that whole "I don't want to kill again" thing.

[Zip]

Was reminded of something while reading this thread. I had heard Batgirl was to be cancelled so I wrote DC (or, more accurately, cambeywest) about my mail subscription, who sent me a letter back saying "We have no information about this title ending."

What does it all mean, Bazzle?

[Denzop]

I read somewhere, maybe another forum, that Batgirl was getting dropped ... If only I could remember where I read this - Ill have a search around and let you know :)

[Maleficentogre]

Thanks to everyone who wrote, drew, colored, sold, bought, or read the many adventures of cassandra cain. It's been a blast. Your pal in the batcave, Michael Wright.
That sounds like the end to me.

[Lester C.]

Was reminded of something while reading this thread. I had heard Batgirl was to be cancelled so I wrote DC (or, more accurately, cambeywest) about my mail subscription, who sent me a letter back saying "We have no information about this title ending."

What does it all mean, Bazzle?

It means they are going to stick you with another book. Probably one you'd never collect normally.

[Max_Dillon]

Having her kill Shiva then walk away smirking shows he gets the character? *Shakes head.*

I think you completely misunderstood the ending. Cass didn't kill her in cold blood and left her hanging on a meathook. She snapped Shiva's neck and then against Shiva's own death wishes she placed her over the Lazarus Pit. Assuming the hook ripped through Shiva's flesh like it appeared too, Shiva would have fallen into the Pit soon after Cass left and Shiva would have been reborn. Similar to how Shiva brought Cassie back tol life twice during the series.

[Damo]

I think you completely misunderstood the ending. Cass didn't kill her in cold blood and left her hanging on a meathook. She snapped Shiva's neck and then against Shiva's own death wishes she placed her over the Lazarus Pit. Assuming the hook ripped through Shiva's flesh like it appeared too, Shiva would have fallen into the Pit soon after Cass left and Shiva would have been reborn. Similar to how Shiva brought Cassie back tol life twice during the series.

Completely misunderstood? Okay, kinda strong language. I think you misunderstood the ending too. I think that the ending was extremely vague and confusing. That said, I think it makes little sense to have Shiva thank Cassandra after being impaled on the hook, if she's meant to fall into the pit soon enough for it to revive her. Overall I think it was written in a needlessly complicated fashion, and drawn very unclearly (the number of people that think she's hanging from cloth and not actually impaled is frankly a very poor reflection on the art). It might very well be that she's walking away intending to bring Shiva back to life.

Maybe.

If that's her actual intent though, it still makes zero sense. That would mean that she's essentially allowing Shiva to kill again without even trying to stop her. Seeing as how everyone she'd met in Bludhaven had just been killed, that doesn't make sense either. I don't think it's in character for her to kill and trudge away smirking. I don't think it's in character for her to let Shiva free to kill again and trudge away smirking. Any way I look at it, it's not a good take on the character.

[Lester C.]

Ultimately logic doesn’t play a role one way or the other in regards to Shiva’s death. If the powers that be want her dead it’s permanate and if they want to bring her back they can exercise that option.

[Static-Pulse]

(the number of people that think she's hanging from cloth and not actually impaled is frankly a very poor reflection on the art)That 80% of my problem summed up right there. We saw the hook go into her back. We saw her hang there. We saw two panels of ripping cloth.

What are supposed to believe? Did the meat hook jammed several inches into her muscle manage to wallow through flesh and bone in a matter of seconds only to be snagged, litterally, by a thread? Is she hanging by a thread? Is she going to fall? As much as I liked the story and art up to these last two issues, the ending is completely obfuscated and rendered meaningless (in my eyes) because it's telling us two endings at once.

On the other hand, they used to do this in old Rebuplic serials. The cliffhanger would end with the car and hero going off a cliff, both doors locked shut. Then next week the story would begin with the hero kicking a door open and getting out, showing another car falling off the cliff with an open door. Maybe the problem isn't the story, maybe the problem is some of us. We'd like an ending to the story for closure, but DC would like a cliffhanger so we'll have to buy issues of O.Y.L. Robin to find out what happens.

Personally, I choose to accept Cass as a killer and wash my hands of the canon completely. If they want to even hint that one of my favorite heroes, a character dedicated to preserving life, has gone over to the darkside, they're welcome to do it. They're welcome to redeem her six months later and return the status quo. I, however, am just as free to ignore them.

[Max_Dillon]

Completely misunderstood? Okay, kinda strong language. I think you misunderstood the ending too. I think that the ending was extremely vague and confusing. That said, I think it makes little sense to have Shiva thank Cassandra after being impaled on the hook, if she's meant to fall into the pit soon enough for it to revive her. Overall I think it was written in a needlessly complicated fashion, and drawn very unclearly (the number of people that think she's hanging from cloth and not actually impaled is frankly a very poor reflection on the art). It might very well be that she's walking away intending to bring Shiva back to life.

Maybe.

If that's her actual intent though, it still makes zero sense. That would mean that she's essentially allowing Shiva to kill again without even trying to stop her. Seeing as how everyone she'd met in Bludhaven had just been killed, that doesn't make sense either. I don't think it's in character for her to kill and trudge away smirking. I don't think it's in character for her to let Shiva free to kill again and trudge away smirking. Any way I look at it, it's not a good take on the character.


Just wanted to say I didn't mean to come off as disrespectful when I said you misunderstood the ending.

I think the ending could have been left up to the reader to decide, but IMO its clear that Cass did not intentionally leave Shiva there to die from her injuries. Although her method of defeating her is questionable since Cass is not a murderer at her current age I don't think she strayed too far from who she is characterwise by leaving shiva to be rejuvenated by the Lazarus pit. The fact that she also said "sorry mom" after Shiva clearly let it be known that she wanted Cass to kill her also leads me to believe that Cass had no intention of ending her mother's life.

As far as her leaving Shiva free to kill again, how many times has Batman encountered Lady Shiva and at the end she is still free to continue her murdering spree?

[Deathstroke]

I read the final issue this week, and I thought that the hook was about to tear through and drop Shiva into the Lazarus Pit to be reborn.

What really ticked me off was how they completely decimated Cassandra by making her kill in the first place. I'm just horrified with all the horrible things that come to mind that DC might have her doing when/if she appears OYL.

[Captain Jim]

Don't read it if you don't want to be spoiled.

Shiva is back in this week's Birds of Prey

[agentofthebat]

how do u know?

[Sharpandpointies]

how do u know?

Because he read an advance copy, or spoke to someone who did. :)

[Static-Pulse]

Shiva is back in this week's Birds of Prey*shrug*

I won't lie and say I'm wholly apathetic (otherwise, why post), but it doesn't affect how I vew Batgirl/Cass. It also doesn't change the fact that I dislike her leaving the Bat-clan for whatever reason.

It also doesn't surprise me. The only people who stay dead or crippled in comics are the engineers and scientists I actually like. Is Ted Kord awake from his nap yet?

[fuaak]

This begs the question: what the hell was the point of Batgirl #73 again? How does it even make sense now?

[Wormella]

I quite liked the end - the ambiguity of it.

Shiva seemed glad that she was finally defetaed, and that was by her daughter. I assume that it's a reborn Shiva that will reappear in anything, not just in the physical sense but in a menatlly relased sense, she can finally let go of all I'm the best in the world stuff, no one can kill me.

As for the meat hook though the shoulder - it does seem to be an artistic glitch- but I read it more as Cass leaving it up to fate if her mother was re-born, sure she gave it a helping hand, but at least it set up Shiva's possible return.

I was happy anyway.

[Sharpandpointies]

For my money, it didn't make much sense to begin with. As for the ending,

I'd say that Batgirl was doing to Shiva what Shiva did to her when she first killed her and 'helped' her with her death wish.

[fuaak]

I quite liked the end - the ambiguity of it.

Shiva seemed glad that she was finally defetaed, and that was by her daughter. I assume that it's a reborn Shiva that will reappear in anything, not just in the physical sense but in a menatlly relased sense, she can finally let go of all I'm the best in the world stuff, no one can kill me.

As for the meat hook though the shoulder - it does seem to be an artistic glitch- but I read it more as Cass leaving it up to fate if her mother was re-born, sure she gave it a helping hand, but at least it set up Shiva's possible return.

I was happy anyway.
The key question is, if Shiva wanted to avoid the pit (and she certainly did), why was she relieved when Cass set her up so that she'd fall into it? And if Cass knew Shiva would be resurrected, why did she give up the Batgirl gig? In fact, why was it such a big deal at all?

[Static-Pulse]

How does it even make sense now?Imagine DiDio flipping you the bird and laughing. That's been my standard codec for the last year or so, and it translates most everything fairly well.

[Guts/Batman]

Imagine DiDio flipping you the bird and laughing. That's been my standard codec for the last year or so, and it translates most everything fairly well.

Agreed.

Nothing he says can be trusted in any meaningful way.

[Captain Jim]

What did anyone say that was untrue?

[IamtheRock3]

Well Cass kileld and resurected her to cure her really


By killing her..Shiva face death, get her wish..no more killing. He Death wish fullfilled.

When she brought back she has a change to be reborn and get pass the obsession and madness

Really temporaraly killing her were the only way to cure shiva.

Thus the smile on Cass face

Now lets see if the cure works.