Holy Terror Batman? (Frank Miller, Al Qaeda Batman Comic)

[manicman]

Wow. I really thought it was a joke when I first read about this. Since DC hasn't made any statement about it, I'm kind of hoping it still might be. I have to give Frank Miller credit, at least he came right out and called it "a propaganda piece", because that's really all it is: hijacking Batman and using him to further the agenda of the U.S. government and it's "war on terror".
Comparing Hitler and the threat posed by Nazi Germany to that of Bin Laden and al-Qaeda seems kind of ridiculous to me. Totally different animals, in my opinion anyway. Opinions?

[MicroZone]

my opinion of anything Miller does these days is that I eant to see it before I drop a single penny on it. my opinion on your grasp of world politics is that you are hopeless naive if you think this is the government's war on terror. maybe a few more cartoon riots will clear the head. or another Dane filmaker getting his throat slashed.

[Expletive Deleted]

Err . . . got a link?

[jerrymcl89]

I'm always interested to see what Miller has to say, because it tends to be entertaining even if I don't agree with it. But if this is as political as it sounds, I'm kind of surprised DC would let him do it.

[Grant]

Err . . . got a link?

I guess he talked about it a Wondercon. I read it here (http://www.aintitcoolnews.com/display.cgi?id=22455). Personally I think it sounds kind of neat.

[Sabrinaset]

Wizard presents a preview of "Holy Terror, Batman!" ... by Frank Miller.

The time is the near future. The place, the deserts of Afghanistan. Two hours ago, al-Zarqari picked up a milk carton with Osama bin-Laden's face on it. Suddenly, a huge screeching sound fills the air! Everyone in the hidden terrorist camp falls down unconscious, covering their ears but finding this action unable to stop the bat-sonics from penetrating their skull.

The Batman scrambles out of the Batmobile, quickly scoops up Osama, and makes his way out of the camp!

FIFTEEN HOURS LATER...

OSAMA: What is...What is this? Who are you, infidel who dresses like a bat?

BATMAN: What are you, dense? Some kinda retard? I'm the Goddamn Batman!

OSAMA: Oh? And this, this vehicle...what is it you call it?

BATMAN: I call it the Batmobile.

OSAMA: That's queer.

[manicman]

my opinion of anything Miller does these days is that I eant to see it before I drop a single penny on it. my opinion on your grasp of world politics is that you are hopeless naive if you think this is the government's war on terror. maybe a few more cartoon riots will clear the head. or another Dane filmaker getting his throat slashed.

I think my naïve grasp of world politics is probably a little stronger than your grasp of world events, as I assume you where referring to the murder of DUTCH filmmaker Theo van Gogh. I know there both small european countries, but get your facts straight. I agree that the violent protests against Denmark are totaly unjustified. A few danish newspapers publishing a cartoon does not mean an entire country should be faulted. However, many Muslims in many other nations (including mine, Canada) have conducted peacful protests and they have every right to be offended and angry.

My grasp of world politics aside, I still think Batman vs. Al Qaeda is a surreally ridiculous concept for a graphic novel.

[Kevin Street]

It's really about Batman vs. Al Qaeda?

Hm. Going by that description, my only problem with the concept is that Al Qaeda will still exist when the story is over, no matter how much of a whippin' Batman gives them in his book. Using Superheroes to attack real life people seems kind of...well, futile. Wish fulfillment of a shallow sort.

Now, if Frank Miller decided to do a story where Batman attacked a fictional terrorist group (or vice versa), he could make it clear that the terrorists are stand-ins for Al Qaeda and still keep enough distance from reality to make an artistic point. There would be room to make the story about something, without the meaning being overshadowed by the plot.

[Grant]

I wonder if he'll have Batman fight MS-13 next.

[Grant]

Comparing Hitler and the threat posed by Nazi Germany to that of Bin Laden and al-Qaeda seems kind of ridiculous to me. Totally different animals, in my opinion anyway. Opinions?

Well I know both of them aren't that crazy about Jews.

It's not like Al-Qaeda really has noble intentions. No rational person wants to live in Osama Bin Laden's world.

[xowainx]

I thought this was going to be a thread about the Elseworlds book Batman:Holy Terror. Ah well

[manicman]

It's really about Batman vs. Al Qaeda?

Hm. Going by that description, my only problem with the concept is that Al Qaeda will still exist when the story is over, no matter how much of a whippin' Batman gives them in his book. Using Superheroes to attack real life people seems kind of...well, futile. Wish fulfillment of a shallow sort.

Now, if Frank Miller decided to do a story where Batman attacked a fictional terrorist group (or vice versa), he could make it clear that the terrorists are stand-ins for Al Qaeda and still keep enough distance from reality to make an artistic point. There would be room to make the story about something, without the meaning being overshadowed by the plot.

That's a really good point, I'm surprised Miller didn't come to the same conclusion.

[infoghost]

Wizard presents a preview of "Holy Terror, Batman!" ... by Frank Miller.

The time is the near future. The place, the deserts of Afghanistan. Two hours ago, al-Zarqari picked up a milk carton with Osama bin-Laden's face on it. Suddenly, a huge screeching sound fills the air! Everyone in the hidden terrorist camp falls down unconscious, covering their ears but finding this action unable to stop the bat-sonics from penetrating their skull.

The Batman scrambles out of the Batmobile, quickly scoops up Osama, and makes his way out of the camp!

FIFTEEN HOURS LATER...

OSAMA: What is...What is this? Who are you, infidel who dresses like a bat?

BATMAN: What are you, dense? Some kinda retard? I'm the Goddamn Batman!

OSAMA: Oh? And this, this vehicle...what is it you call it?

BATMAN: I call it the Batmobile.

OSAMA: That's queer.


Perfect. :D

[mohammedali]

lol @ Sabrinaset. I wouldn't put it past Milller to do that.
Seriously though, I find I'm losing respect for what Miller's doing these days, particularly in the Batbooks. I was one of the defenders of ASB&R, but some of the work just seemed rushed and poorly written. With B:HT, I'm losing respect for Miller as an artist as well. It seems more like he's sold out. I could expect this from many writers, but not Milller. I just hope he does it tastefully, and doesn't kiss up too much.

Mohammed Ali

[Ryan Day]

Two things to remember:

First, Miller's always been big on satire, and he's really been cranking it up lately. I doubt "Batman vs. Bin Laden" is going to be a 100% serious work.

Second, superheroes used to beat up real world leaders all the time just look at all old covers of Batman, Superman, and Captain America beating up Hitler. You know, like this (http://superdickery.com/propaganda/3.html).

[mohammedali]

Two things to remember:

First, Miller's always been big on satire, and he's really been cranking it up lately. I doubt "Batman vs. Bin Laden" is going to be a 100% serious work.

Second, superheroes used to beat up real world leaders all the time just look at all old covers of Batman, Superman, and Captain America beating up Hitler. You know, like this (http://superdickery.com/propaganda/3.html).
Yes, and we even had Superman actively printing a paper saying "It's OK to slap a jap", whilst beating up a cartoon Japanese soldier. Doesn't mean it's a good thing to do. Personally, I very strongly believe that politics should be left out of comicbooks that are going to be read by kids. That's the reason I don't read a lot of Marvel. If it was primerally for adults, like "V for Vendetta" or "Palestine", then I could understand. However, this just doesn't seem like a good idea IMO, and as I said before, it's a shame Miller is selling out. BTW, the book is actually supposed to be quite serious, which is worrying.

[Thaddy-Boy]

I guess Batman will find him?
I always thought Superman was the american icon. Wouldn't it mean more for Superman to fight him rather than a "creature of the shadows" ?

I think Bill O'Reilly is gonna write a small story in the back of the book illustrated by Ann Coulter called "Ragheads gotta die"

[ultramandingo]

Frank Miller, who changed the way people looked at comics with his noirish 1980s Batman graphic novel "The Dark Knight Returns" and his "Sin City" series, says he's started work on a book where the caped crusader will "kick a lot of al Qaeda butt."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/02/14/DDG33H7MSO9.DTL


Miller said he would have editorial control over the Batman series. A spokesman for DC Comics, which publishes Batman, declined to comment on "Holy Terror, Batman."

[ultramandingo]

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bad signal
WARREN ELLIS

So the US Pentagon has revealed
plans for The Long War, which
appears to be a multi-decade
transformation of the American
military into a global "surge" force
that is everywhere at once, both
visibly and secretly, speaking four
languages and watching everyone
from space in a kind of Homeworld
Security doctrine. Guardianunlimited
.co.uk has a good piece on it today.

But it's okay: because Frank Miller's
going to draw pictures of Batman
beating up Osama Bin Laden. 9/11
really drove that poor guy out of
his mind. Amused to note that it
made mainstream news everywhere.
Doesn't matter if the book's half as
brain-damaged as it sounds, it'll
sell a million copies.

According to links I was sent
yesterday, though, this isn't what's
set the message boards alight. Oh
no. Brian Bendis has written an issue
of a comic called THE NEW AVENGERS
wherein a group of Canadian
superheroes called Alpha Flight all
get killed. Once again, that little
bald guy with the funny eye has
raped the childhoods of forty-year-
olds who should know better
everywhere. And he wore a helmet
with a fin on top when he did it.

Over at DC, grim fin-headed Dan
Didio is feeding those same
childhoods into a woodchipper,
massively overheating the superhero
market -- but he gets away with it
because all those readers know
there's a big smack of the Reset
Button to come. It's interesting to
watch Marvel and DC's different
strategies for growing the market
for their superhero comics. Marvel
wants new readers. DC wants the
old readers back. Neither is going
to work effectively without more
comics stores.

[Thaddy-Boy]

bad signal
WARREN ELLIS
<snip>

But it's okay: because Frank Miller's
going to draw pictures of Batman
beating up Osama Bin Laden. 9/11
really drove that poor guy out of
his mind. Amused to note that it
made mainstream news everywhere.
Doesn't matter if the book's half as
brain-damaged as it sounds, it'll
sell a million copies.
</snip>



glad to see one of the best writers in comics weighing in on this. It's a stupid idea, Frank. Just incredibly stupid.

[tymac]

One can hope that it will be better than ASB&RTBW. I wouldn't bank on that, and I expect that there will a big controversy about a poorly executed book.

[David Walton]

I have to give Frank Miller credit, at least he came right out and called it "a propaganda piece", because that's really all it is: hijacking Batman and using him to further the agenda of the U.S. government and it's "war on terror".

Well, propaganda isn't necessarily a bad thing. There was a Batman comic book about ten years ago that was aimed at raising public awareness about land mines. There's nothing inherently wrong with propaganda itself, but the term seems to be used almost exclusively as implying a thoughtless agenda. Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" was propaganda.

I probably need to read the remarks by Miller, but I seriously doubt this is in any way a love song to the Bush administration's approach to terrorism. Miller satirized Reagan in DKR and Bush in DKSA, so I'm pretty sure that Batman isn't being sent there by the State Department.

It sounds more like a way to vent frustration about al-Quaeda's continued presence in the world, and I wouldn't be surprised if Miller takes a few shots at President Bush. It's probably along the lines of Batman saying, "Everyone is screwing this up, now it's my turn."

Comparing Hitler and the threat posed by Nazi Germany to that of Bin Laden and al-Qaeda seems kind of ridiculous to me. Totally different animals, in my opinion anyway. Opinions?

When you say threat, do you mean magnitude? I'd say that because of nuclear weapons and man's increasing capacity to cause greater destruction with less effort, al-Qaeda is a threat that is equal to Hitler's Germany. If we don't treat them as such, we're a party to our own extinction. Now that doesn't mean it has to fall along Republican/Democrat lines. Both parties acknowledge how dangerous al-Qaeda is.

As for different animals, it's always dangerous to make too much of a comparison in approach. Al-Quaeda isn't a sovereign nation, so we obviously can't deal with them in the same way as Hitler's Germany. But as a threat, I'd say they are on par with Hitler.

[David Walton]

But if this is as political as it sounds, I'm kind of surprised DC would let him do it.

I doubt it's especially political. Democrats and Republicans alike are pretty keen on the idea of al-Qaeda getting kicked around. Sounds like a safe way to draw attention back to comic books.

[David Walton]

Hm. Going by that description, my only problem with the concept is that Al Qaeda will still exist when the story is over, no matter how much of a whippin' Batman gives them in his book. Using Superheroes to attack real life people seems kind of...well, futile. Wish fulfillment of a shallow sort.

Well, burglars and gangsters still exist when Batman stories are over. I don't think wish fulfillment is futile.

Now, if Frank Miller decided to do a story where Batman attacked a fictional terrorist group (or vice versa), he could make it clear that the terrorists are stand-ins for Al Qaeda and still keep enough distance from reality to make an artistic point. There would be room to make the story about something, without the meaning being overshadowed by the plot.

That's a great point. But it wouldn't get this kind of attention. And there's something very satisfying about putting a name and a face on this enemy.

[David Walton]

Yes, and we even had Superman actively printing a paper saying "It's OK to slap a jap", whilst beating up a cartoon Japanese soldier. Doesn't mean it's a good thing to do.

But it doesn't mean it's a bad thing, either. As long as this specifically aimed at al-Quaeda, and not Muslims in general or Arabs, I don't see why propaganda like this would be a problem. We can all agree that al-Quaeda needs a hurtin'. Our heroes represent our values, and seeing Batman kick the snot out them makes sense.

Personally, I very strongly believe that politics should be left out of comicbooks that are going to be read by kids. That's the reason I don't read a lot of Marvel. If it was primerally for adults, like "V for Vendetta" or "Palestine", then I could understand. However, this just doesn't seem like a good idea IMO, and as I said before, it's a shame Miller is selling out. BTW, the book is actually supposed to be quite serious, which is worrying.

As much as comic writers inject politics into comics, this seems refreshing. It's common ground--we all hate al-Quaeda. No debates about executive powers here. Just good old fashioned butt kicking. I don't see this as politics at all.

[cactusmaac]

http://www.brokenfrontier.com/ektron-content/american%20power_0711.jpg

Somebody needs to Photoshop some Bat-ears here.

What with Miller's extended primitive phase, this has the potential to be the most hilarious comic in years.

[mohammedali]

But it doesn't mean it's a bad thing, either. As long as this specifically aimed at al-Quaeda, and not Muslims in general or Arabs, I don't see why propaganda like this would be a problem. We can all agree that al-Quaeda needs a hurtin'. Our heroes represent our values, and seeing Batman kick the snot out them makes sense.
Unfortunately it's not that simple. Firstly, the propaganda in politically influenced comics tends to be towards completely villainising an entire nation. That's why all Japanese, Germans and Russians were seen as completely evil a few decades ago even though this was not the case.
In this particular case, I agree that so long as it is singling out and attacking only Al-Quida members, then in theory what Miller is doing is fine. However, the reality is that it becomes very difficult to illustrate the distiction. Someone reading the comic might think that all men that wear or say the same things that these Al-Quida villains do are necessarily villains. It is likely they will see peaceful Muslims as terrorists. This is true for many people reading a comic, but imagine what happens when children too young to know better start to read it.
As I said before, bringing politics into comics is either full of unacceptable properganda that demeans a nation, or poorly explained so as to create bad misconceptions. Unless the comic is for a mature audience, or handled very very carefully, I don't think biased politics should enter what is essentially a childs storybook.

[David Walton]

If you can't publish a comic that depcits members of al Quaeda as villains, then you might as well stop publishing Joker stories to avoid stereotypes about clowns.

[The Batman]

this should, if nothing else, be interesting when/if it ever comes out.

i am curious as to the reasons behind DC's lack of comment.

[mohammedali]

Theophilus. Did you read what you just posted? Seriously. No offence, but if you can't see the difference then there really isn't much point discussing this.

[Origami]

Frank Miller's Batman Has New Enemy: Osama bin Laden
February 15, 2006
By Kimberly Maul

Comic-book writer and illustrator Frank Miller has announced that his next Batman graphic novel will pit the Caped Crusader against al-Qaeda international terrorist Osama bin Laden.

“Superman punched out Hitler. So did Captain America,” Miller said at the WonderCon 2006 convention in San Francisco. “It just seems silly to chase around the Riddler when you’ve got al-Qaeda out there.”


Holy Terror, Batman! is scheduled for release by DC Comics sometime this year. In it, Miller said, “Batman kicks al-Qaeda’s ass.”

Miller, who revived the Batman Brand in 1987, helped launch the Batman film-adaptation franchise that began with Tim Burton’s Batman in 1989, starring Michael Keaton and Jack Nicholson. The most recent, last year’s Batman Begins, directed by Christopher Nolan, starred Christian Bale, Michael Caine and Liam Neeson.

Miller co-directed with Robert Rodriguez last year’s adaptation of his second installment in the Sin City series of graphic novels. It starred Jessica Alba, Brittany Murphy, Michael Madsen, Josh Hartnett, Clive Owen, Bruce Willis and Elijah Wood.

http://www.thebookstandard.com/bookstandard/news/author/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002033502


http://news.google.com/news?hs=cAq&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tab=wn&ie=ISO-8859-1&ncl=http://www.thebookstandard.com/bookstandard/news/author/article_display.jsp%3Fvnu_content_id%3D1002033502

[Kevin Street]

cactusmaac wins. :p

Well, burglars and gangsters still exist when Batman stories are over. I don't think wish fulfillment is futile.

Oh, I'm not saying that wish fulfillment in general is futile. Heck, comics are built on it! It's just that certain kinds of wish fulfillment (imo) seem a little more futile than others, and using superheroes to beat up someone's real life enemies (again imo) falls into that category. I mean, what is Miller trying to say with this story? We already know that Al Qaeda is bad. The ideal audience for this comic might be a young comic fan in Jordan or Palestine who could receive a little counterpropaganda to go against their daily diet of hate - but it's extremely unlikely that they will ever read it.

If you can't publish a comic that depcits members of al Quaeda as villains, then you might as well stop publishing Joker stories to avoid stereotypes about clowns.

Darn clowns. Why do they hate America? :confused: :mad: ;)

[David Walton]

Theophilus. Did you read what you just posted?

I not only read, I wrote it!

Seriously.

As a heart attack.

No offence

None taken.

but if you can't see the difference then there really isn't much point discussing this.

Well, don't give up on me like that. If I really couldn't see the difference, this would be your opportunity to make it clear.

It's a hyperbolic statement meant to reflect what an incredible leap in logic it is from "propaganda can be malicious" to "American kids won't be able to distinguish between al-Quaeda and Apu from the Simpsons once Batman gets involved". I have a little more confidence in kids. So when you say, "I don't think biased politics should enter what is essentially a childs storybook," I'm a little confused as to how depicting al-Quaeda in a negative light is "biased politics". Is there a pro al-Quaeda ticket I should know about? Cause I'll vote the jerks down.

I don't have a problem with this kind of "propaganda". It's good old fashioned fun if it's done right. I'm not sure what comic shops you frequent, but I haven't seen any kids in a while (unfortunately). But I don't see what's wrong with the catharsis of seeing bin Laden get his teeth knocked out by the Dark Knight. This idea that kids are going to mistake your average Arab for al-Quaeda because of a Batman comic is, well, comical. But *sigh* this is the age of "coffee is very hot" and "bucket filled with water may cause drowning" labels.

The comic book is about al-Quaeda. Kids get that. You're not going to get a smiling Batman with a cover that reads, "It's okay to kick a Muslim". But if we could drop the overt racism and retain that sense of community toward a common enemy, I don't have a problem with it. Kids are well aware that Muslim terrorists exist--there's no getting around that. There were Muslim extremists on 24 last season, and no one was killed for it.

This is a no-brainer. Every depiction, according to your description, has the potential to incite racism or all sorts of "ism"s. That's the human condition.

If we can't call al-Quaeda a bunch of thugs who need killin', I don't want to be right.

I knew Apu couldn't be trusted...

[mohammedali]

It's a hyperbolic statement meant to reflect what an incredible leap in logic it is from "propaganda can be malicious" to "American kids won't be able to distinguish between al-Quaeda and Apu from the Simpsons once Batman gets involved". I have a little more confidence in kids. So when you say, "I don't think biased politics should enter what is essentially a childs storybook," I'm a little confused as to how depicting al-Quaeda in a negative light is "biased politics". Is there a pro al-Quaeda ticket I should know about? Cause I'll vote the jerks down.
Again, there is no 'pro al-Quida ticket'. Yet the situation needs to be handled delicately. Going back to Superman telling children it's OK to 'Slap a Jap' is not acceptable. I know this is very different to what Miller will probably do, but if the comic essentially says the same thing in a round about way, then it's not much better.

I don't have a problem with this kind of "propaganda". It's good old fashioned fun if it's done right. I'm not sure what comic shops you frequent, but I haven't seen any kids in a while (unfortunately). But I don't see what's wrong with the catharsis of seeing bin Laden get his teeth knocked out by the Dark Knight. This idea that kids are going to mistake your average Arab for al-Quaeda because of a Batman comic is, well, comical. But *sigh* this is the age of "coffee is very hot" and "bucket filled with water may cause drowning" labels.
Suprise suprise, but I see a lot of kids buy comics. I've seen this sort of thing done in New Avengers, and so I didn't pick up the book. Part of the reason I read DC is that it is not pushing a heavy agenda unlike Marvel.

snip
Once again, if they do it - fine. I personally don't like the idea, but so long as they handle it carefully, I won't have any major issues. I don't mind them kicking Al-Quidas ass, just as long as it's not causing negative implications to actual muslims. Funny reply BTW.

[ultramandingo]

how come bush never thought to light up the bat-signal ? millers nuts , those guys will be burning their all star batmans in the streets , come to think of it , i might too... "death to the american cartoon devil "!!!!!!!

[Economist]

If writers can often use the US govt as villians in comics without actually being against the actual country then why is it so difficult to have Al-Quida be a villian? Is any comic that has rouge govt agency or courrupt US president/military/CIA a propaganda piece? If you beleive the US is wrong, then isn't that just as shallow fish fullfillment? Maybe writers should use a fictional country's govt. Warren Ellis can write stories like Transmetropolitan about a single journalist against evil US Presidents but a comic with al-Quaeda as a villian is stupid and tasteless?

[ultramandingo]

was'nt superman about "a single journalist against evil US Presidents"? at least luthor wasnt funding terrorist aholes , hes not that much of a dick

[Nighthawk]

I know, settle down brotha:), this is still exciting news, I love Frank Miller's Bat-universe(except for what happens to Dick Grayson), it should be pretty cool.

[Kevin Street]

If writers can often use the US govt as villians in comics without actually being against the actual country then why is it so difficult to have Al-Quida be a villian? Is any comic that has rouge govt agency or courrupt US president/military/CIA a propaganda piece? If you beleive the US is wrong, then isn't that just as shallow fish fullfillment? Maybe writers should use a fictional country's govt. Warren Ellis can write stories like Transmetropolitan about a single journalist against evil US Presidents but a comic with al-Quaeda as a villian is stupid and tasteless?

Let's not read more into these responses than what's already there. I know I never said that using Al Qaeda as a villain in a story is stupid or tasteless, just kind of futile.

When someone uses the US government as a villain in their story (or any other government or organization like big business) they're usually using it as a large, faceless group, like the conspiracy in X-Files. There's no identification with any specific administration or company in the real world - the institution itself is the villain. And when you do see a person leading the faceless government troops it's almost always a made up character like the Cigarette Smoking Man, or the fictional Presidents in Frank Miller's "Give Me Liberty" stories.

But when someone uses a specific, real-life company or president or whoever as the villain, then yes, their story is a kind of propaganda by definition. Whether it's wish fulfillment or not depends upon whether the heroes vanquish the big bad, or are squished under its heel.

[Apathy Boy]

I hate the whole "this was done 60 years ago so we should be able to do it now" argument. And I understand what an emotionally charged figure Bin Laden is.

But for some reason, I can't get outraged about Bin Laden being used in this context. If I thought Miller was attempting this as a serious piece of fiction, sure. But Miller has been in full satire mode for several years now, and I can't see this being any different. It's not like Miller has ever been shy of satirizing real people in his work before. After a certain point, the characterization becomes so silly that any connections to real life disappear. So if this turns out to be an over-the-top pop art piece, I'll expect it to be a damn fun read.

Or, to use Warren Ellis' words, this sounds so freaking brain-damaged I've gotta pick it up. (Ellis' comments are kind of weird, as he seems to be the type who'd appreciate brain-damaged stuff. Then again, I take his words with a grain of salt, since Mr. RUINS/AUTHORITY is also being awfully hypocritical in complaining about how grim Didio and Quesada's superhero comics are. But I digress.)

If you can't publish a comic that depcits members of al Quaeda as villains, then you might as well stop publishing Joker stories to avoid stereotypes about clowns.But... but... when you stop stereotyping clowns, the terrorists WIN.

[Apathy Boy]

I thought this was going to be a thread about the Elseworlds book Batman:Holy Terror. Ah wellHeh. You too, huh?

For the record, BATMAN: HOLY TERROR was the only Alan Brennert story that I've found to be mediocre. But then, I was pretty young when I read it, so maybe I couldn't fully appreciate it.

[Zeta]

Frank Miller needs to retire - now. He's rapidly losing it and becoming more "stupid campy" by the day, as opposed to his old "ultra hip violent campy" that he was so famous for.

[botch]

Yes, and we even had Superman actively printing a paper saying "It's OK to slap a jap", whilst beating up a cartoon Japanese soldier. Doesn't mean it's a good thing to do. Personally, I very strongly believe that politics should be left out of comicbooks that are going to be read by kids. That's the reason I don't read a lot of Marvel. If it was primerally for adults, like "V for Vendetta" or "Palestine", then I could understand. However, this just doesn't seem like a good idea IMO, and as I said before, it's a shame Miller is selling out. BTW, the book is actually supposed to be quite serious, which is worrying.

This makes no sense, what's wrong with marvel talkign about political issues, rather be smart and know about politics than be ignorant. I rather kids learn about politics so we don't get apathetic people like yourself. Plus kids don't read comic books anymore, they're too busy with their video games.

[mohammedali]

This makes no sense, what's wrong with marvel talkign about political issues, rather be smart and know about politics than be ignorant. I rather kids learn about politics so we don't get apathetic people like yourself. Plus kids don't read comic books anymore, they're too busy with their video games.
Being smart about politics means not falling for biased propaganda. Having read Marvel, a lot of the time we are shown Russians are evil and that the French are cowards and so on. This is not being smart about politics. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise. It doesn't teach anything constructive.
There is nothing apathetic about my attitude on the matter. It makes sence not to subject children to a biased view of politics as they are very impressionable at the moment. Given the about of info around them at the moment, it makes more sence to teach them about the world instead of telling them who it's OK to slap. I prefer stories about superheroes from other cultures that teach children about people different to them, rather than a comic that villainises an entire nation. I'd rather kids were oblivious to racist stereotypes and closer to becoming open minded individuals. Perhaps that's just me though.

[pennywisdom]

This is off-topic, so apologies in advance.

Then again, I take his words with a grain of salt, since Mr. RUINS/AUTHORITY is also being awfully hypocritical in complaining about how grim Didio and Quesada's superhero comics are. But I digress.
I'm a big fan of Ellis, so I don't want to be disrespectful or uncouth, but I've also found some of his quotes to appear hypocritical. Do you remember the Ellis quote that JeffreyWKramer had in his sig? Something about how DC is the new home of "grim, fin-headed arse-rape"?

I can't believe Warren Ellis would take that tone and approach, especially since he was, at the time, writing a DC comic, published under the DC banner, featuring a main character who interrogated informants by blowing off their digits with a handgun and then taunting their recent inability to satisfy their lover (Jack Cross).

Then again, I mean no disrespect to Ellis himself... I'm just hoping his quotes were taken out of context because they make no sense to me, given his predilection for shocking and controversial material.

[Joker2503]

Here is the million dollar question: When Batman finds Bin Laden, will he kill him? This is Miller's Batman, after all.

[David Walton]

Again, there is no 'pro al-Quida ticket'.

That's why my "stop the pro-al-Quaeda ticket" rally didn't go over so well. How embarrassing. Now if I actually have to spend time concentrating as much on what I'm for as what I'm against, I'm going to be a better man or have a stroke.

Yet the situation needs to be handled delicately.

I agree...to an extent. It's hard to reconcile my position that we need a good old-fashioned ass' kickin' comic and then say...but a gentle one. It makes me feel like I'm trying to edit Die Hard so it can air on "Lifetime"..."Let's focus more on the romance, less on the explosions." But...I like explosions! I don't want the scene where John McClain goes to marriage counseling. "She's always getting hijacked by terrorists and expecting me to bail her out...and then as soon as the terrorists are gone, she dumps me!" It kind of kills the effect, and that's part of my problem with political correctness. When they aired that insane "24" public service announcement, I wanted to cry. It was a sin against the medium, an awkward interruption that didn't serve any real purpose but to tell us what we already knew. I love Ronald Reagan, but I'd hate to see a little message at the bottom of DKR that says, "Of course, Ronald Reagan didn't really want to incite nuclear warfare..." It'd just hurt the story with nothing positive to show for it. Everyone would walk away feeling pretty much the same, except the story would suffer.

Going back to Superman telling children it's OK to 'Slap a Jap' is not acceptable.

I agree. Given the current political climate, I don't see that as a possibility in the near future...at least not with DC. It's just good business to keep Superman and Batman as apolitical as possible, and keep in touch with the largely American public whom they "represent" as icons. Remember, it wasn't just "It's okay to slap a Jap" in Superman comics--it was him going overseas and blowing up German tanks with his heat vision. I'm not sure how much of the propaganda shaped opinion as much as it was a reflection of a pretty strong consensus. We all like it when Indiana Jones says, "I hate Nazis!" because there's a broad consesus that Nazism is bad, a sentiment felt more strongly in Germany than anywhere else (so it's not really a race issue).

I try to make a habit of imagining what could happen even if it doesn't seem likely, and I think your point is an important one, maybe the most important one. I just don't think it follows that any comic that approaches the subject must break down along those lines.

I know this is very different to what Miller will probably do, but if the comic essentially says the same thing in a round about way, then it's not much better.

I've got to admit, I don't share your apprehension about where this comic is going. Honestly, I think the majority of American and British sentiment is inclined toward the opposite extreme. You can't so much as mention any terrorist here without qualifying it with, "But the majority of Muslims are peaceful." It's actually doing a lot to hinder productive conversation. You've got to admit, the Western world is anxious about Islamic teachings now, but most people are scared out of their wits to suggest that the problem might be much larger than we'd originally thought. And anxiety about this comic, in my opinion, is a symptom of how afraid we are to open up a legitimate dialogue. A lot of us aren't so sure where we stand in relation to mainstream and radical Islamic thought, and if we weren't so skittish about it, I think we'd end up relieving some of the tension but also to acknowledge that we are facing a tremendous challenge to Western civilization.

When I was a kid, the girls never seemed to understand the psychology of conflict between guys. When guys would constantly threaten or suppress their restentment, they'd be enemies for a long time. But when they actually just got to it and beat the snot out of each other, they'd usually end up as friends. They just needed to let off some steam, and they ended up respecting each other.

I'm a firm believer in Martin Luther's remark that humanity is very much like a drunken man who falls off his horse to the left only to get back on it and fall to the right. We're never going to get it perfect. I don't want to see comics that say "It's okay to slap a Jap". But now we seem poised on the opposite extreme. If we're not willing to target a specific organization dedicated to inflicting massive casualties, it's problematic. We lambaste our leaders on a daily basis, and enjoy it. Why wouldn't we have a little fun with our acknowledged enemies?

Suprise suprise, but I see a lot of kids buy comics. I've seen this sort of thing done in New Avengers, and so I didn't pick up the book. Part of the reason I read DC is that it is not pushing a heavy agenda unlike Marvel.

I haven't read New Avengers, so I'd appreciate some specifics. But I agree that politics generally make bad superhero comics. I just happen to think that liberals, conservatives, moderates alike hate al-Quaeda. So it's pretty apolitical. People who have different ideas about, say, ethical treatment of prisoners seem to agree that it's fun to see Batman dangle a crook over a ledge regardless.


Once again, if they do it - fine. I personally don't like the idea, but so long as they handle it carefully, I won't have any major issues. I don't mind them kicking Al-Quidas ass, just as long as it's not causing negative implications to actual muslims.

True 'nuff.

Funny reply BTW.

Thanks. I was a little nervous about sending that post. I wanted to make it very clear that I understood your opinion, and not only respected it, but think it's essential to a healthy balance.

And I must admit that I've done something very foolish. It was late, I was tired, I just meant to stop by the Quicky Mart for a Squishy and some natured ribbing at Apu about his nationality...

It all happened so fast. I didn't realize that a single, well-placed blow from a Squishy could cause that much damage. But that wasn't the worst of it. As he lay dying...

He called on Khali the Destroyer to avenge his death!

Not only did I mischaracterize all Muslims as violent when that simply isn't the case, I forgot that Apu is Hindu!

Stinkin' caste system.

[David Walton]

Here is the million dollar question: When Batman finds Bin Laden, will he kill him? This is Miller's Batman, after all.

I don't think Miller is working within his original artistic constraints. Given that I hear he's recently had Batman gleefully set a police car on fire (or something like that) and verbally abuse his thirteen year old ward, I say that Bin Laden will die...

And he's gonna cry like a little girl.

[David Walton]

This is off-topic, so apologies in advance.


I'm a big fan of Ellis, so I don't want to be disrespectful or uncouth, but I've also found some of his quotes to appear hypocritical. Do you remember the Ellis quote that JeffreyWKramer had in his sig? Something about how DC is the new home of "grim, fin-headed arse-rape"?

I can't believe Warren Ellis would take that tone and approach, especially since he was, at the time, writing a DC comic, published under the DC banner, featuring a main character who interrogated informants by blowing off their digits with a handgun and then taunting their recent inability to satisfy their lover (Jack Cross).

Then again, I mean no disrespect to Ellis himself... I'm just hoping his quotes were taken out of context because they make no sense to me, given his predilection for shocking and controversial material.

I don't read Ellis, but my only guess is that his real problem is that DC is now handling this kind of subject matter with is mainstream heroes (in IC) instead of using the mature label.

There's a certain wisdom to the idea that readers should be able to have their cake and eat it, too...

That characters resembling DC icons can be used to address controversial subjects or just serve as parody, but at the end of the day...

You don't tug on Superman's cape.

[David Walton]

If writers can often use the US govt as villians in comics without actually being against the actual country then why is it so difficult to have Al-Quida be a villian? Is any comic that has rouge govt agency or courrupt US president/military/CIA a propaganda piece? If you beleive the US is wrong, then isn't that just as shallow fish fullfillment? Maybe writers should use a fictional country's govt. Warren Ellis can write stories like Transmetropolitan about a single journalist against evil US Presidents but a comic with al-Quaeda as a villian is stupid and tasteless?

There was a Captain America comic in the seventies (I never read it, on account of I wasn't born yet) that actually depicted one of Cap's arch enemies as an alternate universe version of Gerald Ford...

And during the original Gulf War, Frank Castle went to the Middle East and confronted an evil regime...The dictator in question actually shot a dissident in the crotch and let him bleed out. Poor guy died knowing that even if he lived, Valentine's Day would never hold the same possibilities...

I agree with you, Economist. S.H.I.E.L.D. has been used as a vehicle for making the US government look horrible for a while now. It's not that I don't know that dirty dealings go on in spy agencies. It's just that I miss the old fashioned, James Bond-ish action where you're not asking, "Is Bond being forced to compromise his moral values to accomplish goals for the greater good?" Nah. He's just taking out the bad guys in a very cool fashion.

[cactusmaac]

This is off-topic, so apologies in advance.


I'm a big fan of Ellis, so I don't want to be disrespectful or uncouth, but I've also found some of his quotes to appear hypocritical. Do you remember the Ellis quote that JeffreyWKramer had in his sig? Something about how DC is the new home of "grim, fin-headed arse-rape"?

I can't believe Warren Ellis would take that tone and approach, especially since he was, at the time, writing a DC comic, published under the DC banner, featuring a main character who interrogated informants by blowing off their digits with a handgun and then taunting their recent inability to satisfy their lover (Jack Cross).

Then again, I mean no disrespect to Ellis himself... I'm just hoping his quotes were taken out of context because they make no sense to me, given his predilection for shocking and controversial material.


That issue ended with Jack sitting on the floor of the men's room, in horror at what he'd done.

I don't think Ellis objects to violent themes as much as he thinks using superheroes like this is somewhat ridiculous.

[David Walton]

That issue ended with Jack sitting on the floor of the men's room, in horror at what he'd done.

I don't think Ellis objects to violent themes as much as he thinks using superheroes like this is somewhat ridiculous.

This seems like a pretty common sentiment among the writers who are held responsible for "deconstructing" idealized notions of superheroes.

After "Watchmen" and "Dark Knight Returns", there was this tremendous feeling like, "Where do we go from here?"

Heroes had lost their virginal purity. It's not that they were ever entirely pure, but once Miller and Moore pointed out "facist" implications in heroes (Miller is on the record as saying that DKR Batman is a terrorist, and we know Superman is a government tool) it's hard to look at them in the same light. But aggravating the problem is that inferior writers imitated the darkness but lacked the maturity or control over their subject.

I think there should be more of the traditional approach. Heroes good, villains bad. It doesn't mean they should lack depth, just that at the end of the day, we shouldn't need to take a shower when we think about what Superman was forced to do today.

And that provides a complementary relationship with the mature labels, because it's the contrast that makes both work so well. If JLA starts reading like the Authority, both suffer for it.

[Economist]

When someone uses the US government as a villain in their story (or any other government or organization like big business) they're usually using it as a large, faceless group, like the conspiracy in X-Files. There's no identification with any specific administration or company in the real world - the institution itself is the villain.

But that institution is the US govt. Just as the institution Batman will be fighting is Al-Quida. And is it any less propoganda? Any less wish fullfillment of a shallow sort?

[Joker2503]

I think there should be more of the traditional approach. Heroes good, villains bad. It doesn't mean they should lack depth, just that at the end of the day, we shouldn't need to take a shower when we think about what Superman was forced to do today.

You just perfectly described my opinion on how DC comics should be. Beautifully phrased. Bravo.

[David Walton]

You just perfectly described my opinion on how DC comics should be. Beautifully phrased. Bravo.

Thanks. I don't know why comic companies aren't getting this down. The stories like DKR are great, but only because they are out of continuity. It shouldn't have become DC's Bible for what Batman is, or what the DC universe has become.

[Agentum]

I don't think is a good move to mix to much reality with this kind of comics.

Even if Bin laden is hated a lot i don't like that american propaganda when superheroes take of to battle Hitler or other real people.
Write storys but base them on real things more than aculy use the real thing.

It's not that i like Hitler or Bin Laden, but i don't feel right to me, but then again i'm not an American.

9/11 seems a lot more personal to you i understand, but it happens so much bad things in the world.
Many people thinks that maybe US should sweep before it's own door.

In reality i hope Bin laden will get caught, but i don't want comic books with Batman about it.

I think using things from World wars or other long time ago things had been a lot more offensive if it was just last week they would have happened.

Hard to say the right words..
Hasn't Miller been somwhat against the US goverment before? this sounds like something to do just for the money and publicity and to fool some batnerds:)

[Max_Dillon]

If this was Batman vs. a fictional DCU terrorist group I would be interested, but since it's "Al Qaeda" i'm not interested in reading Frank Miller's version US Government Propaganda, especially after the crap he's doing right now in All Star B and R. I'll pass.

[The Batman]

well almost every writer injects some of their own personal beliefs/politics/buggabears into their work consciously or not. it's kind of what alot of them do so i can't really fault Miller for tossing in his own politics. as a reader and consumer i have the recourse to just not buy it if i don't like what he's got to say.

as for this being a propaganda piece . . . i don't know. it's quite possible that that phrase is just hype or might not necesarily be something that we should take 100% seriously. Miller does love his "satire" afterall. given what we can glean of Miller's politics from his various interviews, work etc it might not necessarily be pro-Bush propaganada if it is indeed propaganda. very likely it'll be propaganda for how the war on terror should be handled, at least according to Miller, if someone had the guts to handle it properly, at least according to Miller. Batman will be the person to handle it properly.

i don't really mind the injection of real world issues into comics so long as it's handled well. in other words i don't want to see a weepy Joker consoling Dr. Doom amidthe wreckage of the Twin Towers. also i hope Miller paces this alot better than ASB&RTBW because more than anything else the pacing on that is ruining it for me. all in all as i said earlier, this has got me interested.

[meethraa]

Frank Miller is writing, penciling and inking this.
What else is there to talk about, really?
This is gonna be sweet!

[Paul Kersey]

Frank Miller is writing, penciling and inking this.
What else is there to talk about, really?
This is gonna be sweet!

Didn't he also do that with DKSA? To be honest, after that, and ALL STAR BATMAN I will be avoiding this project. It seems like Miller is just trying to be edgy for the hell of it.

[sixstringguild]

1. I'm actually surprised Miller is taking a stance like this. I'm assuming his politics tend to stick to the left based on previous work, so this comes as a surprise. Usually those on the left want to coddle terrorist networks...I guess him living in New York during 9/11 has left an indeliable mark on him.
2. I wonder if he's going to get any death threats over this. He's a gutsy man and I applaud him for it.

[Sabrinaset]

1. I'm actually surprised Miller is taking a stance like this. I'm assuming his politics tend to stick to the left based on previous work, so this comes as a surprise. Usually those on the left want to coddle terrorist networks...I guess him living in New York during 9/11 has left an indeliable mark on him.
2. I wonder if he's going to get any death threats over this. He's a gutsy man and I applaud him for it.

1) IN NO WAY are you going to see ANY kind of bashing of the Left from Miller. More than likely, you'll see something along the lines of Batman taking out Osama, then blowing Bush off the map because he failed to do anything about Osama/somehow built Osama up as some kind of force to be reckoned with/something like that. I'm certain Miller will use this as a political vehicle to slam Bush as much if not more than he slams Osama. Heck, there may be so much political propoganda here that there may not even BE a story! I'm still waiting for a story in ASB&R, and that one has no politics in it! The odds that Miller will point out that a former President had the chance to kill bin-Laden but didn't are smaller than my sprouting wings and flying to Cleveland.

I'm more concerned about the overall pacing of the story, to be honest. I've read him from Daredevil and DKR, and then to DKR2 and ASB&R...and maaaan, he is NOT what he used to be. I might buy it for the art...but you know, the last artwork I saw from him sucked too. I might just pass it up completely.

2) Death Threats? From the "real" al-Quada? I'm certain Miller is PRAYING for them. You just can't buy that kinda publicity!

[meethraa]

Death Threats? From the "real" al-Quada? I'm certain Miller is PRAYING for them. You just can't buy that kinda publicity!
Yeah! Worked really well for Theo Van Gogh! I mean, who doesn't know who he is today, right?

[Sabrinaset]

Hey, dead artists sell!

...although calling Miller an "artist" is streching it nowadays. He's more of a hack, which means, Miller isn't doing this because of some artistic vision, but purely for the publicity and the bucks. Should he maaaaaybe be concerned? Perhaps, but I doubt he cares. Be rather interesting if the "real" al-Quada thinks Miller is even *worth* caring about!

[Super Monkey]

If there is non stop riots and people dying over a few harmless cartoons, I am think this comic will go over really well there... cough...

[Visitor Q]

A video interview with Miller, where he shows off some of the actual artwork:

http://www.spacecast.com/videoplayer_1696.aspx


Say what you might think about the end result, or your personal opinion about his style, but it's pretty obvious he's not hacking this out.

[meethraa]

A video interview with Miller, where he shows off some of the actual artwork:

http://www.spacecast.com/videoplayer_1696.aspx


Say what you might think about the end result, or your personal opinion about his style, but it's pretty obvious he's not hacking this out.
I love the man's work, so there was never any doubt that I was getting that book, but that footage got me psyched enough...

[meethraa]

EDIT: Nevermind.

[Jack Roberts]

Frank Miller's publicist deserves a huge raise.

[ultramandingo]

Frank Miller's publicist deserves a huge raise.
Frank Miller's publicist will go in to hiding when this comes out , like a danish cartoonist

[Denzop]

I think his Franks work is fantastic :)

[Jack Roberts]

Frank Miller's publicist will go in to hiding when this comes out , like a danish cartoonist

---Plenty of time to spend the money

[The Batman]

there's an interesting interview with Miller up on Newsarama (http://www.newsarama.com/general/Miller/MillerPart1.htm)

[ultramandingo]

---Plenty of time to spend the money


.........on an a admandtium (sp?) skeleton and one of those bichin' " kill bill" swords , yea com get me bitchez!!!!!!!

[the goddamn batman]

...although calling Miller an "artist" is streching it nowadays. He's more of a hack, which means, Miller isn't doing this because of some artistic vision, but purely for the publicity and the bucks.

I don't mean to be rude, but...

How do you know that? When did Miller start telling you about his intent? And where do you get off, accusing an artist of "doing it for the bucks"? What do you know about it? Are you an illustrator working in comics, or any professional field? Are you an artist who lives on the money they make from their art? Are you an artist at all?


Maybe I'm out of line, but it seems the other way around to me. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't honest. I mean...honestly.

I think this sounds more from the heart than all-star ever did. And DKSA, if it wasn't from the heart it sure ended up there. But wait. Thats Millers main "hack" book isn't it? So in your mind, what defines "hack"? Money or suck-factor? and in your mind, what defines "suck-factor"? An actual lack of skills, or just a distaste for the content? I think the term you're looking for is "sell-out" a sell-out does what they do for money, and popularity, as opposed to what is in their heart. A hack, is someone who lacks the skills to do a job with a professional standard. And while all-star sure isn't great, it is a comic, and what is the professional standard? To write a comic book, good or bad, just make it a comic. Not to mention all the other books I don't THINK are written at a professional standard. Does that indeed make the writer a hack? No.


So, in short. A hack, is a person who lacks the skills to do the job at the level required.

&

A Sell-out is a person who, regardless of skill level, goes against what is in their heart/vision, for the sake of profit.

Those are very different things. It's ok with me if you feel Miller fits both of those catagories. I just think you should stop switching the defenitions while trying to sound like you know all about whats going on. It's quite easy to rip ____ when thats the new cool, but lets get the insults straight. Especially if we're going to be all hung up about punctuation, and proper sentance structure. Don't you think?

p.s. If we all look at Millers career, he seems to draw the stories he really feels something for. All-Star, Year One, Spawn/Batman...those were the hired gigs, the "do this, and only this" jobs. When Miller illustrates it, it's the book HE wants to write and push to DC, because HE has something HE wants to say. And he's right, Al-Queda are bad, and Batman should go punch them in their faces. Plus the art alone looks amazing.


Now then, are we really debating whether the Nazis or Al Queida is/was MORE evil?!?!? Really?!?!? :eek:


wow.

[Jack Roberts]

.........on an a admandtium (sp?) skeleton and one of those bichin' " kill bill" swords , yea com get me bitchez!!!!!!!

Uh-huh, think about present headlines and how no one has talked about this except the Miller-camp and you will see what I meant by my original post. Its PR and its great especially considering Miller has nothing of substance to offer the artform anymore except his name.

[The Batman]

after reading the Miller interviews up at Newsarama and seeing some of the artwork on Space i'm that much more excited about this. it seems that Miller is trying to do a story that's from a time rather than about a time, in this case WWIII, that is kind of like what George Lucas was doing with THX 1138 with the whole "future artifact" approach. if he pulls it off i think it could be really interesting and if nothing else the artwork i saw looked fantastic.

[Hellcow]

Wow, I really like FM, I even forgave his shoddy work on DK2, but damn this is a lame project.

Maybe next stop, Batman, the worlds greatest detective can find the WMDs, cause no one else can.

The propaganda machine is doing very well by itself. It doesn't need batman to do its dirty work.

Poor Batman.

[the goddamn batman]

The propaganda machine is doing very well by itself. It doesn't need batman to do its dirty work.


What propaganda? Terrorism IS bad.

[dancj]

What propaganda? Terrorism IS bad.

That doesn't stop it being propaganda

[the goddamn batman]

ok... so I'll ask again, What propaganda?


Maybe I'm missing it, maybe because I have not read this yet.

How you guys seem to know the content of this book, is beyond me.

Fill me with your wisdom.

[Violently Apathetic]

We can see through time, obviously.

[bannermanonemillion]

I'd like to see a serious Batman v. Al Queda story.

It's already been said that superheroes fought real bad guys like Hitler back in the day, and it would be interesting if a writer decided to do that for Batman today.

But then again, it's Miller.

*crosses fingers*

[Hellcow]

ok... so I'll ask again, What propaganda?




Read George Orwell, 1984...

[the goddamn batman]

Why, did Orwell already cover Batman vs. Al Queda? :D

[Violently Apathetic]

That's silly, of course Batman didn't make an appearence in 1984!

(He was in Animal Farm...)

[Erebus]

Apparently, Frank Miller is going to write a new arc dealing with Al Quada coming to Gotham city. In the words of Miller, "Batman is going to kick Al Quada's ass!" God, I hate Miller.
Strory found here (http://comics.ign.com/articles/688/688140p1.html)
I also read an article about this in the Rolling Stones. Apparently, Kevin Smith thinks this is a good idea. "Captain America was created to fight in WW2, Iron Man was born in the steamy jungles of South-East Asia, and the X-Men were created to reflect the civil rights issues of the 70s'. Comics have always been reflections of real world problems. Why not Batman and Al Quada?" Any opinions?

[the goddamn batman]

We did this already, search for the thread.

[Hellcow]

Its no wonder they need the worlds greatest detective on it... no one else can find them. The must be hiding behind the WMDs, cause no one can find those either.

[seaflower]

I really hope Batman doesn't have to live down Superman's "Slap a Jap" comment from the WW2 period.

I wonder if Miller is going to keep this story purely political or will negative references to ethnicity and religion going to be used as well. Shakes head.

[Dustin Griffin]

Its no wonder they need the worlds greatest detective on it... no one else can find them. The must be hiding behind the WMDs, cause no one can find those either.

ZING! Try the veal folks.

[The Foreigner]

Apparently, Frank Miller is going to write a new arc dealing with Al Quada coming to Gotham city. In the words of Miller, "Batman is going to kick Al Quada's ass!" God, I hate Miller.
Strory found here (http://comics.ign.com/articles/688/688140p1.html)
I also read an article about this in the Rolling Stones. Apparently, Kevin Smith thinks this is a good idea. "Captain America was created to fight in WW2, Iron Man was born in the steamy jungles of South-East Asia, and the X-Men were created to reflect the civil rights issues of the 70s'. Comics have always been reflections of real world problems. Why not Batman and Al Quada?" Any opinions?


The whole thing is out-of-continuity and Miller is saying it's just a goofy propaganda comic; nothing subtle about it. You're not going to see any deep political commentary-- It's Batman beating up terrorists. That's all.

And weren't the X-Men created in the 60's?

[Kirayoshi]

Its no wonder they need the worlds greatest detective on it... no one else can find them. The must be hiding behind the WMDs, cause no one can find those either.I always loved Bill Maher's line:New Rule: The President must stop saying that Osama Bin Laden "can run but he can't hide". Oh boy can he hide! We can't find him with cruise missiles, satelites or million-dollar bribes--although oddly enough he's reachable through Classmates.com."

[Nefarius]

I'm sure that it would reveal that Joker was the real creator of Al-Quada....

[Ripper]

If its purely a dig at the old propaganda comics then it sounds pretty fun. Modern day Bats really isnt the type of guy who would deal with that sort of stuff, I wonder if Miller is going to do his own take on golden age Batman. If so, that would be interesting to say the least.

[meethraa]

Apparently, Frank Miller is going to write a new arc dealing with Al Quada coming to Gotham city. In the words of Miller, "Batman is going to kick Al Quada's ass!" God, I hate Miller.
Strory found here (http://comics.ign.com/articles/688/688140p1.html)
I also read an article about this in the Rolling Stones. Apparently, Kevin Smith thinks this is a good idea. "Captain America was created to fight in WW2, Iron Man was born in the steamy jungles of South-East Asia, and the X-Men were created to reflect the civil rights issues of the 70s'. Comics have always been reflections of real world problems. Why not Batman and Al Quada?" Any opinions?
Why does that make you hate Miller?

[Nefarius]

Unfortunately it's not that simple. Firstly, the propaganda in politically influenced comics tends to be towards completely villainising an entire nation. That's why all Japanese, Germans and Russians were seen as completely evil a few decades ago even though this was not the case.
In this particular case, I agree that so long as it is singling out and attacking only Al-Quida members, then in theory what Miller is doing is fine. However, the reality is that it becomes very difficult to illustrate the distiction. Someone reading the comic might think that all men that wear or say the same things that these Al-Quida villains do are necessarily villains. It is likely they will see peaceful Muslims as terrorists. This is true for many people reading a comic, but imagine what happens when children too young to know better start to read it.
As I said before, bringing politics into comics is either full of unacceptable properganda that demeans a nation, or poorly explained so as to create bad misconceptions. Unless the comic is for a mature audience, or handled very very carefully, I don't think biased politics should enter what is essentially a childs storybook.

I agree.I don't think they must use comics as propaganda tools.Well during WW2 all countries use propaganda to increase the will to fight for victory.Even Axis powers use comics as propaganda tools(except Germany because they thoughts comics were ridiculus for and not being a part of German culture.).The bad thing is that propaganda in comics create stereotypes about other people.See germans and russians.Most of americans see them as villains and would-be conquerors.Also propaganda in comics show the world as good vs evil.("we are the good guys and the others the bad").Ok,Al-Quada was bad but it was born from islamic fundamentalism and this religious fanatism was born thanks to western interventionism to Middle East.

Of course,i don't try to justify terrorism but we must think what born terrorism.At,least,i see this story as satirical and not so serious as Spiderman 9/11(Doom's crying.Geez this guy was try to destroy the world 10,000 times).

[Ullar]

wasnt this gonna be a frank miller OGN?

[Sparda]

I would probably even buy an issue if it has batman actually killing like his first debut but doubt it. Dark knight in a desert just does'nt mix. I'd pay 2.99 on a mini of Ultimate captain america (ult version cause he's more badass) on fighting terroist's then I would spend a penny on bat's taking on terroists.

Why could'nt Miller do another creator own project like sin city and ronin for god's sake?

[the goddamn batman]

I'm certain it still is.

[Punch]

This is going to be loads of fun.

[the goddamn batman]

Everything I've seen is in Gotham, not the desert.

[CapFan]

This is gonna rock. F*ck Al Qaeda and all who support extremism and justifying the killings of innocents through religion (9/11). I'd like to see a Batarang inside Osama's eyeball socket.

(BTW "the goddamn batman" you have the best sig ever, I laughed forever at that strip)

[the goddamn batman]

thanks. I enjoyed it a lot too! ...obviously.

cheers!

[ultramandingo]

so are they droping these on pakistan or someting ? a guy in a cave fighting evil power mad pyschos to avenge the death of his family . i bet it will be a big hit at the next shoe bombing . fear our cartoon thunder!!!!!!

[Hellcow]

Yeah, this comic is gonna change the world...NOT.

You're wasting your time Frank.

[TheTen-EyedMan]

http://fauconnoux.free.fr/slapajap.jpg

Xenophobia as comic fodder...nah, that's not a cliche.

[StrikeForce Albert]

Why does that make you hate Miller?


Because it's completly un-PC to hate anybody that's not white and christian.

I have no problem with this. Batman beating the hell out of Osama is fine by me.

[Person Man]

Are you retarded? Terror will never win, because we're the Goddamn United States!

[Punch]

Yeah, this comic is gonna change the world...NOT.

You're wasting your time Frank.
or it can be a fun book to read.
Who in their right mind looks to a comic to change the world?

[Hellcow]

or it can be a fun book to read.
Who in their right mind looks to a comic to change the world?


That's a good question, but you need to ask Frank. He seems to feel very strongly about it.

[the goddamn batman]

I don't think that means he's expecting it to change the world.

Franks just making a comic book where we do go and get Bin Laden. It's called fiction.

The art is beautiful. Can't comment on the story, but it'll be beautiful, whatever it is.

[Kid Lantern]

Is it just me or is batman (normal-not-elseworld) least likely of the big names to go after a terrorist group? at least one not operating in his city. Think of his responce to the Dr light mind wipeing, completely insensed by it, and yet its exactly the sort of right wing, patriot act, cutting the corners off of civil rights to protect people thing that miller is proposing he do....

still, holy terror might be dif

[The Batman]

Well given that Gotham is sort of like DC's New York, along with Metropolis of course, it's entirely reasonable that the terrorist attack was in Gotham. I don't know that Batman going after terrorists who kill innocent people is that same as a "right wing, patriot act, cutting the corners off of civil rights to protect people thing" like a mindwipe so much as Batman going after people he sees as criminals.

Besides doesn't Batman violate people's civil rights every night?

[the goddamn batman]

I think they attack Gotham.

[The Batman]

That makes sense.

I'm really excited about this, any new info on when it's supposed to come out?

[Lanowar]

I heard that Miller actually annouced this BEFORE he had even pitched it to DC that's why DC took so long in responding in offically confirming it.

Still it just one of those things where you think. Al Queda could'nt last two seconds in the DC universe mostly because there's so many heroes on top of so many terrorist organizations fighting for control. Like Intergang and Ra's Al Gaul's league of assassins.

I dunno the idea just does'nt sound that intresting to me is all.

[mattx110]

i bet ra's and the league could find osama.
plus, at least ra's al ghul's dream planet seems a lot nicer than osamas (after the genocide of course).

anyway, i think i'll enjoy it. plus the sooner he gets done with this, the sooner we get the spirit. and after finishing a couple eisners this past week, there is definitely a huge parallel between will and frank. the amount that the city is a character. the colorful characters, the depressing as all hell morality stories. i really think it'll come out great.
between sin city 2, the spirit, and batman's war on terror, i haven't been looking forward to this much stuff from frank miller since before i was born.