Comic Scanning - the pros and cons

[lukecage21]

I just had to register on this site so I could get something off my chest. I have been reading various message boards discussing the "morality" of scanning and downloading comic books. I've read post upon post stating that scanning and distributing comics is killing the industry. You've got to be kidding me! I've seen people say its the same as downloading music - the only thing they have in common is that they are both forms of copyright infringement. People who download music (a lot of them...not all of them) only want a song or two from a particular artist and NEVER intend to make a ligit purchase. Collectors are a different breed altogether - whether its comics, coins, baseball cards, or beenie babies...we could look all day long for free, but its not the same as owning it. We want to possess things - its what we do. I downloaded Marvel Zombies the other day and I loved it! I loved it so much, I went out and bought it (along with my usual $100-$150 a month donation to the comic gods). Have I read other things for free that I didn't purchase? Yes - but I didn't buy them because I thought they were crap. I've read every issue of Amazing Spiderman on illegal downloads, but do I still troll the local shops for back issues - of course I do - I'm a collector. Another example - a friend of mine was telling me how he hadn't purchased a comic in over a decade. I told him he really needed to check out some of the stuff they were doing these days...and I gave him a disk with a few samples...the next Wed we were BOTH at the comic chop dolling out our hard earned money on stuff we just read for free.

Now if you're still reading this - here's my point. The comic industry shot itself in the foot back in the late 80's and all through out the 90s by flooding the market with tons of crap dressed up in metallic covers and stamped with #1 FIRST ISSUE! Not only was it bad writing and way too much of a good thing in some instances (X-men, X-Force, X-Factor, X-Midgets, etc), but they continued to rehash old failures by creatung a false speculators market with a ton of #1's. Now everythings a $2.99 and up and that alone is enough to sacre off the kiddies. Ask any kid if they want to buy 10 comics or the latest Sonic video game...I'll give you 3 guesses what his answer would be!

I think the comic industry is missing the point when it comes to what hurts them and what helps them. Put out good comics at a reasonable price and people will continue to come back. If anything pirated comics is like free advertising....if you build it...they will come. Like I said before, even though my digital comic collection is huge - it can never replace the real thing - plus reading four comics in a row on my computer screen is enough to make my eyes twitch for a few days! Is copyright infringement wrong - YES. Do I do it? YES. Does it stop me from buying comics? HECK NO! Does it expose me to even more titles I'm willing to plop down $3 for? HECK YES!

Again - I'm not saying that its right - I'm just saying that its not having the negative impact on the industry like they'd like to make you think. They've got no one to blame but themselves for that! Next thing you know, they'll be trying to keep us from selling collector to collector on ebay! Now that's got to be hitting some of the retailers in the pocketbook!

And just so we're clear on this....this isn't just pirates vs publishers...there are plenty of people within the industry on BOTH sides of this fence.

Anyways...just had to get that off my chest. Thanks for hanging in there!

[DrewTheXenocide]

Somebody said something to me about pirated video games, and I think it counts towards everything else too. He said that the compaines aren't actually losing any profit because the type of person who downloads stuff probably wouldn't buy it either way. But, if they do download it, there's that off chance that that person would like it so much, that they'd shell out money for it, as apparently both you and I have done.

[Chevan]

Somebody said something to me about pirated video games, and I think it counts towards everything else too. He said that the compaines aren't actually losing any profit because the type of person who downloads stuff probably wouldn't buy it either way. But, if they do download it, there's that off chance that that person would like it so much, that they'd shell out money for it, as apparently both you and I have done.

That's a valid point, but what the video game/music companies are after isn't just an end to pirating. The ideal state for the music/gaming industry would be one where buying the material is your only option, not just the legal one.

[Matt Algren]

You sure do like your exclamation mark!

To get to the point of your post:

So because you think the comic companies are to blame for their poor sales, you're okay with doing something that you acknowledge as wrong? Weird. Could it be that you'd be doing it either way and that this is just a barely-there rationalization?

[Pól Rua]

Yeah?
Well I had no problems with telling someone who came into my store to get the hell out and never come back when they said they only wanted a copy of an issue of "Blue Monday" so they could scan it and post it online.
Fucking with people's livelihoods here.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Yeah?
Well I had no problems with telling someone who came into my store to get the hell out and never come back when they said they only wanted a copy of an issue of "Blue Monday" so they could scan it and post it online.
Fucking with people's livelihoods here.

People we've met or spoken to online, no less.

[Typo Lad]

My name is Mordechai and I download comics.

Nothing new, just old stuff for my blog. Which I still seek out.

[Cephus]

That's a valid point, but what the video game/music companies are after isn't just an end to pirating. The ideal state for the music/gaming industry would be one where buying the material is your only option, not just the legal one.

They want to be a monopoly where they make the rules and everyone follows them like sheep. I have no problem paying for something that is worth the money they're charging, but if you look at groups like the RIAA whose ultimate goal is to get you to pay them every time you listen to a song, or the MPAA who wants the same with movies and TV shows, it's certainly understandable why people would want to thumb their noses at these groups.

Intellectual property laws are completely out of control and need to be seriously rethought.

[thik_3rd]

i dl comics. old stuff mainly, ocasionally something new.

[Chevan]

They want to be a monopoly where they make the rules and everyone follows them like sheep. I have no problem paying for something that is worth the money they're charging, but if you look at groups like the RIAA whose ultimate goal is to get you to pay them every time you listen to a song, or the MPAA who wants the same with movies and TV shows, it's certainly understandable why people would want to thumb their noses at these groups.

Intellectual property laws are completely out of control and need to be seriously rethought.

Oh, I completely agree. Copyright laws especially need to be re-worked. They've been perverted far from their intended purpose.

All I'm trying to say is that the "downloading isn't a lost sale because I never intended to buy anyway" defense isn't going to be a valid excuse in the industry's eyes.

[Kid Omega]

Downloading music is hardly and apt comparison; artists make most of their maoney touring, so to a certain degree it's almost beneficial to have their music available in as many sources as possible.

Not to mention how radio throws the curve of what constitutes "free'.

Downloading comics is criminal. To read a comic, first you purchase it. Everyone involved in making that comic is counting on sales, and if you want to read it, and you download it, you are stealing from the creators, the publishers, the distributors, and the stores that sell it.

It's wrong, it's illegal, and it's an asshole move.

[Erebus]

Paragraphs, dude.

[Michael P]

He used paragraphs. Now he just needs to learn how to structure them.

[Winslow]

I have downloaded Scanlations - Manga that is not available in the U.S., translated into English and posted online by fans in the hopes of getting the work exposed to a broader audience.

I started a thread in the manga forum to discuss the ethics of it here. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=47981&highlight=scanlations)

[thik_3rd]

It's wrong, it's illegal, and it's an asshole move.
it's illegal, but like so many other illegal things, far from wrong. the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

[Kid Omega]

it's illegal, but like so many other illegal things, far from wrong. the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

It's wrong. You're stealing. You want to read something that you don't want to pay for.

What benefits are there? Who does it benefit? People who want things for free?

The negatives are that lots of people are staking their livelihoods on the sales of these comics, and people are reading them for free.

I'm not sure that there's a grey area here.

[elheffe]

Downloading comics is criminal. To read a comic, first you purchase it. Everyone involved in making that comic is counting on sales, and if you want to read it, and you download it, you are stealing from the creators, the publishers, the distributors, and the stores that sell it.

It's wrong, it's illegal, and it's an asshole move.
I disagree. From the latest issues standpoint, yeah, it's probably stealing. But older stuff, not so much. If I download the Jack Kirby comic The Demon, who's missing out on the profits? The corporate hulk Time-Warner? Jack's not gonna see any profits. The comic book stores who hike up the price of back issues? Screw that.
Who knows if the comics companies will even get around to putting out trades of some of that real obscure stuff that I download anyway. Like the old Gold Key comics. That company doesn't even exist! No one's gonna put out trades of that.
In fact, if the comic book companies were smart, they jump on the downloading revolution right now. It's another revenue steam, with little overhead to think about.

[Kid Omega]

I disagree. From the latest issues standpoint, yeah, it's probably stealing. But older stuff, not so much. If I download the Jack Kirby comic The Demon, who's missing out on the profits? The corporate hulk Time-Warner? Jack's not gonna see any profits. The comic book stores who hike up the price of back issues? Screw that.
Who knows if the comics companies will even get around to putting out trades of some of that real obscure stuff that I download anyway. Like the old Gold Key comics. That company doesn't even exist! No one's gonna put out trades of that.
In fact, if the comic book companies were smart, they jump on the downloading revolution right now. It's another revenue steam, with little overhead to think about.

I don't disagree with you.... older stuff should be available. I mean, it's still illegal, but if the artists aren't losing money, it doesn't irk me.

Most of that material is available in such cheap reprints (Showcase or Essentials or Pure Imagination) that the profit margin is slim to nil to start with.

What sticks in my craw is when Wednesday New Books are available that very night, free for all the folks who want to save a few bucks but still keep up with the Rann Thanagar War... or whatever.

(BTW- I'm sure you know that Dark Horse is archiving alot of Gold Key books... as well as Checker. Magnus, Solar, Star Trek, and Lulu are all available in nice collections. I'm still wainting on Boris karloff Presents)

-a

[thik_3rd]

It's wrong. You're stealing. You want to read something that you don't want to pay for.

What benefits are there? Who does it benefit? People who want things for free?

The negatives are that lots of people are staking their livelihoods on the sales of these comics, and people are reading them for free.

I'm not sure that there's a grey area here.
lets look at it this way.

people who only download comics are people that will probably, never buy a comic. if someone who will never buy a comic downloads a comic, the people who will potentially be making money off the sale of that comic won't lose any money because that person probably would never have bought that comic in the first place.

let's pretend you own a comic store (for some reason, i think you do, i coulda sworn i saw some posts where people said you ran one). and then lets take some guy, jack. jack will never buy a comic. he's never read them, never had an interest in them, whatever. one of jack's friends recommends something he's been reading, a comic book. jack is still not very interested in it. he finds out he can dl it though, instead of spending a few bucks on it, so he does. so, you as a comic shop owner are not losing money on a sale, because jack would never have bought a comic other wise. neither are the writer, artist, other creators, or publisher of the comic losing any money. there is no negative in this situation.

now for the potential benefits.

lets say jack really likes the comic he bought. he maybe dl's a few more issues, and likes them as well. then he decides to start buying the comics. lets say he goes into your shop, and buys a few back issues/trades/hcs of the comic he was previously dling. and then starts buying the monthly issues or trades as they come out. this way, you the comic shop ower profits, as do the creators and publishers of the comic. benefits for all.

now of course that won't always happen, but the chance that it will happens exists, so do the benefits as well then. and if the person only continues to dl the comic, and not buy it, they probably would never have bought the comic in the first place. that might be sad, but it isn't really detrimental to anyone who would otherwise profit/benefit off having one more book sold.

[Winslow]

Ethics aren't hypothetical.

They're real life.

[Kid Omega]

lets look at it this way.

people who only download comics are people that will probably, never buy a comic. if someone who will never buy a comic downloads a comic, the people who will potentially be making money off the sale of that comic won't lose any money because that person probably would never have bought that comic in the first place.

let's pretend you own a comic store (for some reason, i think you do, i coulda sworn i saw some posts where people said you ran one). and then lets take some guy, jack. jack will never buy a comic. he's never read them, never had an interest in them, whatever. one of jack's friends recommends something he's been reading, a comic book. jack is still not very interested in it. he finds out he can dl it though, instead of spending a few bucks on it, so he does. so, you as a comic shop owner are not losing money on a sale, because jack would never have bought a comic other wise. neither are the writer, artist, other creators, or publisher of the comic losing any money. there is no negative in this situation.

now for the potential benefits.

lets say jack really likes the comic he bought. he maybe dl's a few more issues, and likes them as well. then he decides to start buying the comics. lets say he goes into your shop, and buys a few back issues/trades/hcs of the comic he was previously dling. and then starts buying the monthly issues or trades as they come out. this way, you the comic shop ower profits, as do the creators and publishers of the comic. benefits for all.

now of course that won't always happen, but the chance that it will happens exists, so do the benefits as well then. and if the person only continues to dl the comic, and not buy it, they probably would never have bought the comic in the first place. that might be sad, but it isn't really detrimental to anyone who would otherwise profit/benefit off having one more book sold.

You're operating on the assumption that people who dl books would otherwise not buy them.

First of all, I don't think that's the case. I think most people who dl comics are fans who are looking for ways to spend less money. Most (if not all) of the people who I know that have admitted to downloading fall into that category.

Secondly, if by some chance, some random jack who doesn't read comics, finds a dl of a random comic and loves it... he will probably continue to dl it. The idea that he will suddenly march into a comic shop and start shelling out cash for something he could otherwise get for free is absurd. It doesn't happen that way.

Making things available for free that would other wise *not* be free is wrong. Cartoonists are not making free web-comics. If they wanted their stuff available for free on line, they would do it that way. That is a viable option. If someone chooses not to have their comics available in that format, there's no rationalizing it- it's wrong.

Your example above hinges on lots of hypotheticals, none of them grounded in a free market reality, and they do not convince me there are any benefits to illegal downloads.

[thik_3rd]

You're operating on the assumption that people who dl books would otherwise not buy them.

First of all, I don't think that's the case. I think most people who dl comics are fans who are looking for ways to spend less money. Most (if not all) of the people who I know that have admitted to downloading fall into that category.

Secondly, if by some chance, some random jack who doesn't read comics, finds a dl of a random comic and loves it... he will probably continue to dl it. The idea that he will suddenly march into a comic shop and start shelling out cash for something he could otherwise get for free is absurd. It doesn't happen that way.

Making things available for free that would other wise *not* be free is wrong. Cartoonists are not making free web-comics. If they wanted their stuff available for free on line, they would do it that way. That is a viable option. If someone chooses not to have their comics available in that format, there's no rationalizing it- it's wrong.

Your example above hinges on lots of hypotheticals, none of them grounded in a free market reality, and they do not convince me there are any benefits to illegal downloads.
so basically this comes down to me believing that they would otherwise not buy the comics if they didn't dl them versus you believing they would.

i personally have put 3 (and maybe 2 more) people on to buying comics in the past 6 months since i first started dling them after i showed those people a few good comics to dl. 2 of the 3 were people who never bought a comic before, and since started buying comics after they read a few they dled. the third was already buying comics and i put him on to buying a specific series after he dled a few issues of it.

i realize that's just anecdotal evidence but then again so is yours when you said the handful of people that you knew who dl comics would otherwise buy them if they couldn't dl them.

[Kid Omega]

so basically this comes down to me believing that they would otherwise not buy the comics if they didn't dl them versus you believing they would.

i personally have put 3 (and maybe 2 more) people on to buying comics in the past 6 months since i first started dling them after i showed those people a few good comics to dl. 2 of the 3 were people who never bought a comic before, and since started buying comics after they read a few they dled. the third was already buying comics and i put him on to buying a specific series after he dled a few issues of it.

i realize that's just anecdotal evidence but then again so is yours when you said the handful of people that you knew who dl comics would otherwise buy them if they couldn't dl them.

Here's the thing- you could have just as easily bought them the books. That's what I do when i want to turn my friends onto comics.

Either way, it doesn't matter. It's illegal, and even if it means a few people are buying books, until a publisher or creator puts the material out their as a promo item, it is not meant to be read online for free, and for every one person who buys a book after reading it from dl, there are dozens who simply read it for free.

[thik_3rd]

yeah but i'm not about to either spend my money on other people like that, or loan them the comics i already have.

and i know it's illegal, it's just that no one can convince me it's wrong.

and even if it were hundreds, or thousands of people still reading ir for free instead of dozens, that one person who starts buying it is still one more person buying it than was otherwise.

and was i right about you owning a comic store? or is that something i dreamed up?

[Matt Algren]

I don't know what all the hubbub is about. Sure I stole a few comics last time I was in the store. But I gave some of them to my friends, and a couple of them started buying comics on their own. Isn't that awesome?

I mean, the net effect is that more comics were sold, so what's the harm? Besides, those comics that I stole would've probably just sat on the shelf if I hadn't stolen them, and the store owner would have eventually had to rent space to store all of these non-stolen comics.

There's nothing wrong with what I'm doing. I'm helping. Right?




(This is starting to sound like an After School Special. I always thought they were heavy-handed, but maybe they were onto something.)

[Kid Omega]

and i know it's illegal, it's just that no one can convince me it's wrong.

Aside from the legality, do the words "Thou shalt not steal" mean anything?

And if judeo-christian values have no bearing, how about simple respect for the artists who would rather you pay for their work?

[thik_3rd]

Aside from the legality, do the words "Thou shalt not steal" mean anything?

And if judeo-christian values have no bearing, how about simple respect for the artists who would rather you pay for their work?
stealing is only wrong to me if someone is adversely affected by it. i don't believe anyone is adversely affected by it in this case, and in this case there exists the possibility that there will be positive effects for the creators, publishers, and store owners. there's nothing wrong with that.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Downloading comics is criminal. To read a comic, first you purchase it. Everyone involved in making that comic is counting on sales, and if you want to read it, and you download it, you are stealing from the creators, the publishers, the distributors, and the stores that sell it.

It's wrong, it's illegal, and it's an asshole move.

I both agree and disagree with you.

First, I've never really done it - don't have the time, and couldn't be arsed. Sounds like to much hassle, and reading off a computer monitor is for chumps.

The only time/s I have done anything similar is when a comic book comapny has put up an issue.
Oni did it with Geisha - I was glad. I didn't like the book, so I saved money, but I did like Andi Watsons style, so I picked up some other stuff he did.

Marvel did it with the ultimate line - decided I didn't like a book because of it, read the Ultimate Spiderman issue where he told MJ about his powers (even though I wasn't reading it at the time, I did eventually start getting trades of the series).

The best reason for it though was with Ultimate X-men, and this is back before I went exclusive with trades (it's cheaper, more conveniant and I don't lose them).
I missed the 2nd last issue of the first arc when it came out at the comic shop. At the time though, Newstands would get the issues as well - only 3 months later.
Lucliky marvel had it on it's website, so I read it for free, and was able to pick up the issue without being confused or having to wait (good thing to, as newstands stopped getting them).

Of course this is different, because it was legal.

As I only read trades, and can't really think of a book I'd miss if I dropped, I couldn't see myself downloading illegally, but if it was so I could follow the next issue, I'd do it.

(On pirated games, I've never played one that I would have brought - even those I did enjoy, I either had no money, or it wouldn't have appealed to me on the shelf - now I work though I don't pirate them, borrow occasionally, but I've no problem with that.
On Music, as long as a song costs a buck to download legally, pay for it. If they start charging outrageously, bugger them, download it).

[Kid Omega]

stealing is only wrong to me if someone is adversely affected by it. i don't believe anyone is adversely affected by it in this case, and in this case there exists the possibility that there will be positive effects for the creators, publishers, and store owners. there's nothing wrong with that.

So the possibility that there might maybe be more sales outweighs the reality that people are taking things for free, illegally and against the will of artists and publishers?

wow.

[thik_3rd]

So the possibility that there might maybe be more sales outweighs the reality that people are taking things for free, illegally and against the will of artists and publishers?

wow.
yes. by far. nothing wow about it. especially considering that most people who dl comics wouldn't buy them otherwise. no one loses, there's a chance people will win. this isn't a shade of gray to me.

[Kid Omega]

Of course this is different, because it was legal.


Yes indeed.

[StoneGold]

So the possibility that there might maybe be more sales outweighs the reality that people are taking things for free, illegally and against the will of artists and publishers?

wow.
The only thing I'm adding, the will of the artists has nothing to do with it. They have no legal recourse in this thing whatsoever. Unless they actually own the properties, but that don't seem to happen so often.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Yes indeed.

I would have done it if I'd been at a site that had illegal downloads though.

I think if you missed the issue, or have every intent of still picking it up*, go for it.
But only then.
Don't be tempted by the dark side!


*I picked that issue up again so I could re-read it as a whole, not because I feared 'holes' in my 'collection' fanboys.

[Kid Omega]

yes. by far. nothing wow about it. especially considering that most people who dl comics wouldn't buy them otherwise.

Where are you getting this statistic? Please explain this to me.

So far, in this thread, you are the only person to admit to downloading. You are a fan. A fan that would potentially buy those books otherwise.

no one loses, there's a chance people will win. this isn't a shade of gray to me.

It's STEALING. You are rationalizing this all over the place, but you're stealing from artists, publishers, and retailers whose livelihoods depend on sales.

Even if your example is true (which it most likely isn't), and people are buying books because they got hooked from illegal downloads, it's still STEALING. The people who produce and sell these books, want you to pay for them. They are adversely affected when people steal them.

[Kid Omega]

The only thing I'm adding, the will of the artists has nothing to do with it. They have no legal recourse in this thing whatsoever. Unless they actually own the properties, but that don't seem to happen so often.

Or make royalties from the sales, which happens alot.

Or live off of a page rate that they only get when a book is published, and books are only published when they sell a certain amount.

If a book is teetering at the cancel mark, and a thousand people decide to dl it instead of buying it, that creator loses money. It's an extreme example, but it's not unrealistic.

-a

[thik_3rd]

Where are you getting this statistic? Please explain this to me.

So far, in this thread, you are the only person to admit to downloading. You are a fan. A fan that would potentially buy those books otherwise.
i didn't give any statistics. i just said that i doubt the people who dl comics would otherwise buy them if they couldn't. you say the opposite and haven't provided any statistics on it either. i doubt there are any stats on the subject.

typo lad also said he dl's comics, just going from what i remember reading in this thread before we got into this.

that said, i usually only dl older out of print/hard to find stuff, which you said doesn't irk you (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=2625413&postcount=18). i have on occasion dled a few new comics. i dled y, the last man, and the goon...i loved them and started buying them and bought the back issues i dled. i would've never buyed those issues had i never got them for free. i dled the first issue of dmz, a comic i would've never bought otherwise, and didn't like it. i don't like, i don't buy it, i haven't dled another issue. no one lost any money on that. well i guess my comic shop lost a couple bucks off me not buying 1 issue...but oh well.

edit - i also dl digitals so i can easily reference them without digging through my older comics looking for an issue or two.


It's STEALING. You are rationalizing this all over the place, but you're stealing from artists, publishers, and retailers whose livelihoods depend on sales.

Even if your example is true (which it most likely isn't), and people are buying books because they got hooked from illegal downloads, it's still STEALING. The people who produce and sell these books, want you to pay for them. They are adversely affected when people steal them.
yes. i agree it's stealing. it's not wrong though.
why is my example most likely untrue? this isn't music, or movies, or even books...people in general are out there living without comics. a pretty fringe entertainment media. i really doubt that the dlers will be buying otherwise if they couldn't dl. they probably weren't reading comics before you could dl them, and if they couldn't dl comics tomorrow i doubt they'd start buying them.
therefore, they aren't adversely affecting the sellers, publishers, and creators, while they are potentially benefitting them (no matter how small that possibility is).

[StoneGold]

Or make royalties from the sales, which happens alot.

Or live off of a page rate that they only get when a book is published, and books are only published when they sell a certain amount.

If a book is teetering at the cancel mark, and a thousand people decide to dl it instead of buying it, that creator loses money. It's an extreme example, but it's not unrealistic.

-a
On new books, yes. Or stuff that's traded. And made after the point where royalties were handed out. Which isn't always the case.

[lukecage21]

Here's the thing- you could have just as easily bought them the books. That's what I do when i want to turn my friends onto comics.

Either way, it doesn't matter. It's illegal, and even if it means a few people are buying books, until a publisher or creator puts the material out their as a promo item, it is not meant to be read online for free, and for every one person who buys a book after reading it from dl, there are dozens who simply read it for free.

So maybe we should be burning down Barnes and Noble for allowing people to sit around reading books for free. Oh- I forgot, they're the largest book retailer in the nation. Maybe they're on to something.

Yes - there are people who will download to save money, but this industry has always been driven by its faithful collectors/fans. And as I said before, I could read something a thousand times for free, but I'm still gonna want to own it. I'm a collector.

As far as personal experience - everyone I've exposed or reintroduced to the comic world with scanned comics has climbed aboard for the regular Wed trips to the local shop.

God bless all the "asshole" downloaders who finally forced the record companies to "allow" me to purchase just the songs I like instead of paying $15 for one good song and a disc full of crap!

[bida]

okay im confessing that i dl comics, i started dling them about this summer. My view points on comics really change, back then i would never even think about buying a comic book now im planning on buying Daredevil trades cause i love it so much

i also might buy the ultimate trades and many more other trades

edit: im not saying its right to dl comics but it sure did help me get into it

[Sir Tim Drake]

So maybe we should be burning down Barnes and Noble for allowing people to sit around reading books for free. Oh- I forgot, they're the largest book retailer in the nation. Maybe they're on to something.

Your condescending tone is rather annoying.

But that aside, I don't think this situation is analogous. If you sit in Barnes & Noble and read a book for free, you probably will not be able to read the entire book, because you can't take it out of the store. You can only read it during the time you're within the physical confines of the store, and that time is limited by both the store's hours and the fact that you likely have better things to do. When you download a comic, you essentially own it and can read it whenever you like.

So there goes that analogy.

Yes - there are people who will download to save money, but this industry has always been driven by its faithful collectors/fans. And as I said before, I could read something a thousand times for free, but I'm still gonna want to own it. I'm a collector.

I don't think it's safe to assume this, until it's proven with empirical data rather than anecdotal evidence.

As far as personal experience - everyone I've exposed or reintroduced to the comic world with scanned comics has climbed aboard for the regular Wed trips to the local shop.

Again this is just anecdotal evidence. A few examples of people who have downloaded comics and then started buying them regularly, do not prove that this is a general trend.

Furthermore, even if downloading does have some potential, hypothetical benefits, I think they are entirely outweighed by the harms.

God bless all the "asshole" downloaders who finally forced the record companies to "allow" me to purchase just the songs I like instead of paying $15 for one good song and a disc full of crap!

Again, how is this analogous to comics? Comic books don't cost $15 and they typically have only one or two stories apiece.

[thik_3rd]

But that aside, I don't think this situation is analogous. If you sit in Barnes & Noble and read a book for free, you probably will not be able to read the entire book, because you can't take it out of the store. You can only read it during the time you're within the physical confines of the store, and that time is limited by both the store's hours and the fact that you likely have better things to do. When you download a comic, you essentially own it and can read it whenever you like.

So there goes that analogy.
how about this analogy. someone who reads a comic in a comic shop right off the rack without paying for it? i see someone doing that nearly everytime i'm in my shop.
if it's harmful to anyone, why would the owners/workers at the shop permit it
they realize that if the guy reading it likes it, he may buy it. if he doesm't he won't buy it. if he didn't get to read it first, he also probably wouldn't have bought it. and what's the difference between that and dling one?

[elheffe]

Again this is just anecdotal evidence. A few examples of people who have downloaded comics and then started buying them regularly, do not prove that this is a general trend.

Furthermore, even if downloading does have some potential, hypothetical benefits, I think they are entirely outweighed by the harms.

Yes, but how is the industry gonna stop people from downloading comics? I don't think they really can; at least no better than the Music or Movie industries have. I'm gonna echo what I said earlier: the comics industry need to jump on this and start offering digital downloads.

[founder81]

Yes, but how is the industry gonna stop people from downloading comics? I don't think they really can; at least no better than the Music or Movie industries have. I'm gonna echo what I said earlier: the comics industry need to jump on this and start offering digital downloads.

Even comic companies offer downloads, and let's say they are cheaper ($2 ie), downloading for free will still be prevelant.

Downloading comics isn't exaclty like CDs. If you want Avengers #34 you buy Avengers #34. If you like Song3, you have to buy the album. Given the option of just buying the download of song #3 works for music. Unless you only want page 16 of Avengers #34, i can't see the similarity.

[lukecage21]

Your condescending tone is rather annoying.

But that aside, I don't think this situation is analogous. If you sit in Barnes & Noble and read a book for free, you probably will not be able to read the entire book, because you can't take it out of the store. You can only read it during the time you're within the physical confines of the store, and that time is limited by both the store's hours and the fact that you likely have better things to do. When you download a comic, you essentially own it and can read it whenever you like.

So there goes that analogy.

My Response: Perhaps I should run my posts by you first to see if you like them before I put them up? My coments are not inflamatory nor are they judgemental. They are simply my opinions. Besides - its an analogy - not concrete. I'd also like to offer that the same person could go to B&N on their lunch break or on weekends if they wanted to read the book for free. What's more, they could read half of it and decide they don't like it and walk away without having spent a cent.

And if you would read my original and subsequent posts you would know that I spend more a month on comics than I do on health insurance. That doesn't even include the money I spend on back issues.

Tim Drake: I don't think it's safe to assume this, until it's proven with empirical data rather than anecdotal evidence.

My response: Just making my case for me - their is no empirical data to back up either side of this case. To say that any of this is taking money out of anyone's pockets is just as pressumptious as to say its not. My views are simply an extenstion of my personal experience...nothing more.

Tim Drake:Again this is just anecdotal evidence. A few examples of people who have downloaded comics and then started buying them regularly, do not prove that this is a general trend.

My Repsonse: Again - people who download and never buy - they are out there, but it does not prove that it is a general trend. More to the point - I would think that this would be more of a problem with games, movies, and music. Once you have it it - that's it. You can watch, play or listen. Comcis will always be the exception to the rule when it comes to downloading vs purchasing because we're collectors. We want to own the physical copies. We like to bag and board them, compare collections, etc.

Tim Drake:Furthermore, even if downloading does have some potential, hypothetical benefits, I think they are entirely outweighed by the harms.

My repsonse: So where is the empirical data to back this statement up? Never mind - its your opinion and I respect that.

Tim Drake:Again, how is this analogous to comics? Comic books don't cost $15 and they typically have only one or two stories apiece.

My response: No they don't cost $15, but then I don't usually by 10-20 CDs in a trip to Best Buy. For my $15 on a CD I have at least 8 -10 chances to find something I like. With comics I'd have to spend $24 -$30 for the same shots at finding something I like. That's generally not the case with me because I know what I like, but I do like to sample smaller publishers and independently owned characters ( the ones where the creators actually see some of the profits).

To sum it all up - I download comics. I spend a lot of money on new comics and back issue. I believe that any comic worth the paper its printed on will be successful on its own merits ( don't see illgal downloading as the reason Quasar didn't make it) whether people could download it for free or not (see X-Men and its 198 spin-offs). I believe that the comic industry ( especially the comic stores) need to focus on quality rather than quantity. Quantity may pay the rent this month, but quality will keep them coming back indefinitely. And finally - no matter how much I download or how much I may gripe - I will continue to pump more than my fair of dough into the comic machine because I love comics. Deadbeat downloaders ( who never buy), bad marketing ploys, and speculators will all come and go. I'll still be here.

Thank you to everyone for their responses -especially Tim Drake, Kid Omega and thik 3rd for making this a wothwhile discussion. I would like to remind everyone that if you like it, buy it and while I'm on the downloaders side - for God's sake - please don't sell them - now that upsets me.

[cactusmaac]

I downloaded a lot in 2003 when I was seriously getting into comics for the first time.

It helped me get up to speed on a lot of different series, stories and creators to a degree that would have been impossible without it.

I barely download anything nowadays since I'm very certain about what my tastes are and I've bought most of the back-issues and trades I want.

It's been extremely helpful in avoiding bad purchases.

[elheffe]

Even comic companies offer downloads, and let's say they are cheaper ($2 ie), downloading for free will still be prevelant.
Yeah, there's always going to be freeloaders. It just a fact of life.
But downloading comics is no picnic, at least in my experience. If comic companies got on board with digital downloads, at least the product would be easy to download; it would no doubt be a superior scan and thus, better quality than anything free.

Downloading comics isn't exaclty like CDs. If you want Avengers #34 you buy Avengers #34. If you like Song3, you have to buy the album. Given the option of just buying the download of song #3 works for music. Unless you only want page 16 of Avengers #34, i can't see the similarity.
No, downloading comics is like downloading movies, or TV shows. If you want a episode of Lost you get an episode of Lost. If you want Avengers #34, you'll get Avengers #34.

[lukecage21]

I downloaded Avengers # 34 after I had already purchased the real thing.

I downloaded Marvel Zombies #1 then went out and paid $8.00 for it one month after it came out - after having downladed and read it for free.

Point being - if I want it I'm gonna buy it whether I downloaded it or not.

[PatrickG]

Oy.

I've downloaded comics that I owned physical copies of:

A) when my scanner was broken (ie. I was planning to use scans for a webpage)

B) when they were being stored over an hour's drive away.

And y'know what? I wasn't that big on the quality of the scans to begin with.

Now... I have serious issues with IP law. I think we need to resurrect the 28 year public domain, forcibly if necessary. This is the one and only case in which I think imminent domain is necessary; I genuinely believe that the government should begin seizing ideas and forcing them into the public domain when it is in the interests of society at large to do so. I think trademark law is broken and patents have become absurd. I'm not even sure I agree that ideas should be ownable or if we should devise an alternative societal means of cmpensating great thinkers and artisans.

That said, even if you only use downloading to avoid "bad purchases", you're still quite possibly causing someone to default on the mortgage on their house. We all owe $3.00 for the worst crap on the market if we want to read it and if you don't feel that obligation, quite frankly, I'd rather not be discussing comics with people who aren'y as serious about it as I am. No wonder the internet reaction to comics is so NEGATIVE if hundreds of people are reading comics that they'd never be willing to pay for...!

*sigh*

[DrewTheXenocide]

I disagree. From the latest issues standpoint, yeah, it's probably stealing. But older stuff, not so much. If I download the Jack Kirby comic The Demon, who's missing out on the profits? The corporate hulk Time-Warner? Jack's not gonna see any profits. The comic book stores who hike up the price of back issues? Screw that.
Who knows if the comics companies will even get around to putting out trades of some of that real obscure stuff that I download anyway. Like the old Gold Key comics. That company doesn't even exist! No one's gonna put out trades of that.
In fact, if the comic book companies were smart, they jump on the downloading revolution right now. It's another revenue steam, with little overhead to think about.

Didn't Marvel do that, though? That's why I first got into Ultimate Spidey. Because Marvel offered the first couple issues or so online, for free. After reading it, and loving it, I went to my comic book store and put Ultimate Spidey on my pull list. Marvel doesn't do that anymore?

[lukecage21]

I guess I'm just plain crazy, but it's seems to me that if you were really serious about comics, you would be interested in culling the industry of the "crap" that makes people feel like they got ripped off (which in turn drives some people away).

Shouldn't it be the industry's obligation to provide us with quality products? Is it moral to dress up bad writing with a slicked up cover and say it'll cost you $3.00 bucks to find out that its crap? I'm not obligated to Todd McFarlane (who has millions to spend on baseballs because of collectors like me) - if anything, they're obligated to us. If illegal downloads kill off bad books and drive out bad writers - KUDOS. People stealing Chrysler LeBaron's din't kill Chrysler back in the day - putting out crap cars killed Chrysler. They were forced to address how they were doing things and the eventual results were innovative new cars like The Prowler, PT Cruiser, and a revamped 300.

No - I'm not saying that stealing cars forced the change. I was saying that it was not the reason they floundered for a decade+

[Cephus]

All I'm trying to say is that the "downloading isn't a lost sale because I never intended to buy anyway" defense isn't going to be a valid excuse in the industry's eyes.

Of course not because the industry doesn't function in the same reality that the rest of us do. Unfortunately for them, the more they try to crack down on people who wouldn't buy their products to begin with, the more people get fed up with their tactics and refuse to buy their products and the cycle escalates. The world has changed, they need to change as well, but they're desperately clinging to their old sales and distribution models and fighting against anyone who might seek to change the way the system works.

Eventually, they'll go the way of the dinosaur.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I guess I'm just plain crazy, but it's seems to me that if you were really serious about comics, you would be interested in culling the industry of the "crap" that makes people feel like they got ripped off (which in turn drives some people away).

Shouldn't it be the industry's obligation to provide us with quality products? Is it moral to dress up bad writing with a slicked up cover and say it'll cost you $3.00 bucks to find out that its crap? I'm not obligated to Todd McFarlane (who has millions to spend on baseballs because of collectors like me) - if anything, they're obligated to us. If illegal downloads kill off bad books and drive out bad writers - KUDOS. People stealing Chrysler LeBaron's din't kill Chrysler back in the day - putting out crap cars killed Chrysler. They were forced to address how they were doing things and the eventual results were innovative new cars like The Prowler, PT Cruiser, and a revamped 300.

No - I'm not saying that stealing cars forced the change. I was saying that it was not the reason they floundered for a decade+

You're justifying yourself by claiming to be doing the industry a favour?

Lame.

[Cephus]

First of all, I don't think that's the case. I think most people who dl comics are fans who are looking for ways to spend less money. Most (if not all) of the people who I know that have admitted to downloading fall into that category.

Going back to the original Napster, studies clearly showed that people who downloaded music also bought more music, on average, than people who didn't download music. For people who were apt to buy, downloading served as a means to try it out and see if they liked it before they went out and spent money on it. There are people who aren't going to buy it, but they wouldn't buy it at all, even if that was their only way to see it. They're not harming or helping the system in any way whatsoever.

Secondly, if by some chance, some random jack who doesn't read comics, finds a dl of a random comic and loves it... he will probably continue to dl it. The idea that he will suddenly march into a comic shop and start shelling out cash for something he could otherwise get for free is absurd. It doesn't happen that way.

Some people don't have comic shops, you know? Some people *CAN'T* buy it, even if they wanted to.

Making things available for free that would other wise *not* be free is wrong. Cartoonists are not making free web-comics. If they wanted their stuff available for free on line, they would do it that way. That is a viable option. If someone chooses not to have their comics available in that format, there's no rationalizing it- it's wrong.

Right and wrong are subjective concepts. Let's also remember that artists are not always permitted to do what they want. Let's not forget the case of The Offspring, who put their entire album up on their own website for free download, but were forced by their label to remove it because it might "hurt sales".

Then again, at the time, The Offspring was the #1 pirated group on the planet. They were also the #1 best selling group. Yup, all that piracy hurt them a lot, didn't it?

[Tadhg Adams]

You're justifying yourself by claiming to be doing the industry a favour?

Lame.

I agree. That's the lamest rationalization I've ever heard. They're not obligated to us. Not one bit. You get product for your money. Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't like it, don't buy it. But don't illegally download shit and then try to pass yourself off as some kind of hero.

[Cephus]

But that aside, I don't think this situation is analogous. If you sit in Barnes & Noble and read a book for free, you probably will not be able to read the entire book, because you can't take it out of the store. You can only read it during the time you're within the physical confines of the store, and that time is limited by both the store's hours and the fact that you likely have better things to do. When you download a comic, you essentially own it and can read it whenever you like.

Actually, at B&N, people can and *DO* read entire books. If you just limit this to manga and graphic novels, there are people who spend all day, every day, sitting there reading to their heart's content. Not only that, but they bend covers and damage books so they are unsaleable and are returned for credit. That costs Marvel (or whoever produces it) *ACTUAL MONEY*.

Reading a scan costs nobody anything. Marvel never produced the comic, nothing is stopping them from selling all the physical comics they printed, etc.

[lukecage21]

I'm not justifying myself to anyone. I'm just saying that's how the world works. Bad workers get fired, bad singers to get record deals - why should it be any differnet in the comic world? Here's a hint - its not. Bad books die. I just think people are pointing their fingers at the wrong reasons as to to the "why"

Earlier someone wrote that they got hooked on Ultimate Spiderman because Marvel put it on their website for free. THAT'S WHAT I'M GETTING AT. It's start, but its not enough. If they would take control of the situation and regulate, the people who loved comics would still be there, the free loaders would jump ship, but they continue to ignore this potent medium. Time for changes that's all I'm saying.

I continue to support the comic industry with my purchases so that they can surive long enough to get with the program. I'm just hoping that its sooner rather than later.

Aside from that, they still have to work on the product - how many times can Aunt May be near death before they finally reveal that she too has a mutant healing factor to stave off death?

[lukecage21]

They don't owe us anything? That's exactly the attitude that is bringing down this house of cards. Thanks for the post.

I guess when you buy a house you don't care if its up to snuff...don't like it...live in the streets...sounds like something a slum lord would say.

[Chevan]

Of course not because the industry doesn't function in the same reality that the rest of us do. Unfortunately for them, the more they try to crack down on people who wouldn't buy their products to begin with, the more people get fed up with their tactics and refuse to buy their products and the cycle escalates. The world has changed, they need to change as well, but they're desperately clinging to their old sales and distribution models and fighting against anyone who might seek to change the way the system works.

Eventually, they'll go the way of the dinosaur.

And again, I agree. The industry is a step behind everyone else, and it desperately needs to catch up.

Whether they're a step behind doesn't matter much, though. They're the ones pressing charges within the law. They're the ones that are trying to get to an industry state that they have the legal right to try for, that being one where if you want to read a comic, watch a movie, or listen to some music, you have to pay.

Yes, they might be cracking down on people who wouldn't buy their products to begin with, but they have every right to.

Here's what I see happening: "I want to read this comic. However, I really don't feel like paying for it, so I guess I'll have to pass. Ooooh, wait! I can just download it! They didn't really lose a sale, I wasn't going to buy it anyway!"

No.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I'm not justifying myself to anyone. I'm just saying that's how the world works.

If that's really the case, you might want to stop justifying then.


Bad workers get fired, bad singers to get record deals - why should it be any differnet in the comic world? Here's a hint - its not. Bad books die. I just think people are pointing their fingers at the wrong reasons as to to the "why"

What has this to do with anything, least of all downloading.


Earlier someone wrote that they got hooked on Ultimate Spiderman because Marvel put it on their website for free. THAT'S WHAT I'M GETTING AT. It's start, but its not enough. If they would take control of the situation and regulate, the people who loved comics would still be there, the free loaders would jump ship, but they continue to ignore this potent medium. Time for changes that's all I'm saying.

They didn't make it available for download, it was on the site.
Took a bit to load up at first, but was pretty smooth after that.


I continue to support the comic industry with my purchases so that they can surive long enough to get with the program. I'm just hoping that its sooner rather than later.

Again, that really doesn't come into the download debate.


Aside from that, they still have to work on the product - how many times can Aunt May be near death before they finally reveal that she too has a mutant healing factor to stave off death?

And your downloading stops that how?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

They don't owe us anything? That's exactly the attitude that is bringing down this house of cards. Thanks for the post.

They are a business, they don't owe us anything.
Buy a book, don't like it? Don't buy it again.

That's capitalism.


I guess when you buy a house you don't care if its up to snuff...don't like it...live in the streets...sounds like something a lsum lord would say.

We're comparing comics to houses' now?

So sad.

[lukecage21]

Read all the posts, then comment.

I spend lots of money on comics.
I don't buy bad comics.
Enough people avoid bad comics - bad comics go away.

I download comics.

What does one have to do with the other?

Nothing. Whether I could or could not download comics I would still buy comics. Bad comics go away one way or another. The big boys need to start addressing one of the largest mediums in existance. Those are my points.

[Tadhg Adams]

Read all the posts, then comment.

I spend lots of money on comics.
I don't buy bad comics.
Enough people avoid bad comics - bad comics go away.

I download comics.

What does one have to do with the other?

Nothing. Whether I could or could not download comics I would still buy comics. Bad comics go away one way or another. The big boys need to start addressing one of the largest mediums in existance. Those are my points.

How does downloading comics illegally help anything, which is what you were implying. If you don't like a book, don't buy it. If you want to read a book, then you should pay for it.

[lukecage21]

So now I know two things:

1) You're not very well versed in capitalism
2) You don't work in sales or marketing

Money spent is money spent - whether on a house or a comic book. As a consumer you should demand quality. Those who don't...I belive that's where they got the saying " A fool and money are soon parted"

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I've read all the comments, and you still don't make sense.

I understood when you were trying to justify your downloading - which if you'd stuck to trying before buying you might have done okay, it was when you jumped into you were doing it for the industry that you lost me.

After that, I think you lost yourself.

[Tadhg Adams]

HAHA. I love the person who is advocating illegal downloading says we're not versed in capitalism. PRICELESS.

A company puts out a product. People who want said product, buy it. Those who don't, don't. There is no obligation anywhere in there. Comic companies arn't obligated to put out "good" comics, just like we're not obligated to buy "bad" comics.

By downloading comics, you are taking something for nothing, which is not capitalism. Again, if you want to read a book, BUY IT. If it's not worth your buying, then surely, it's not worth your reading.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

So now I know two things:

1) You're not very well versed in capitalism
2) You don't work in sales or marketing

Money spent is money spent - whether on a house or a comic book. As a consumer you should demand quality. Those who don't...I belive that's where they got the saying " A fool and money are soon parted"

Which part of capitalism am I getting wrong?
Here's the thing, I'll look at a book on the shelf.
If I like the look of it I'll buy it, if not I put it back.
If when I read the purchased book at home, I don't like it, I won't buy it again.
By not putting out a quality product to my tastes, they have lost me as a customer. By putting out a really bad product, they lose lots of customers, and go out of business.

So I'm not sure what form of capitalism you go in for (beyond the illegal downloading side), but I'm pretty sure my way is the way the system is supposed to go.

I think there's a big difference between what sort of thinking people put into purchasing a comic or a house (unless your a sad fanboy).

And by the way, as a consumer, I do demand quality, I don't buy somthing I consider bad - I just don't see how this is related to illegal downloading, except for your (now borderline surreal) justifications for your actions.

[lukecage21]

How does downloading comics illegally help anything, which is what you were implying. If you don't like a book, don't buy it. If you want to read a book, then you should pay for it.

I'm not saying that they necessarily help - I'm just saying that its presumptious to say that it is what's killing the industry ( go back to my first post).

Can then help revive the industry - yes, but not because they are illegal. I believe that they can introduce people to titles that might have gotten lost in the tide of comics unleashed in the 90's. They can make you fall in love with older comics or even new comics you might have not originally thought worth the investment. I'm just saying that the comicbook industry is ignoring a tremendous revenue stream as well as a very powerful marketing tool. Let's remember, the brick and motar stores are what drive the industry. Without them, new comics find their way back to the drugs and corner stores. Retailers only make a ceratin percentage on their new sales, but can often see increases in profit margin on back issues.

I'm only speaking for myself when I say that downloading has stirred me to reinvest myself in tracking down some of the gems from yester year as well as adding a few titles to my monthly pull list that I might have missed otherwise.

I'm not downloading illegal comics because its free - its just how it is. I would love it if Marvel, Dc and the others would tackle this medium and regulate. I'd much rather have a neatly packaged collection that I can carry with me wherever I go instead of a disk labled in magic marker, but they simply have not addressed this medium to any real extent. My hope is that they will...someday.

[Watery Tart]

No, they don't "owe" us anything, but if they insist on making it necessary to read tie-in issues of Comics B, C, and D to understand what's going on in Comic A, and don't put in the effort to make Comics B, C, and D readable, I don't feel particularly compelled to pay for it. They aren't obligated to provide good product, but neither am I obligated to financially support bad product.

I just got back into comics less than a year ago, and I downloaded a bunch of current stuff because I had no idea what was out there. What I liked, I went out and bought. You might say I should have just bought everything instead, but I'm a college student, I don't have those kinds of resources. My limited finances and overall comics philosophy combine to "voting with the dollar" buying habits, and downloading was the only way I was able to do so as a broke college student. I can honestly say without downloading I would've given up on getting back into comics. I can also point you to a significant number of posts on scans_daily where people say they've decided to buy something based on scans that were posted there.

I'm not trying to make a statement on the inherent rightness or wrongness of downloading. Most of the people arguing against it have made very compelling and valid arguments. I just think it's a mistake to construe it in such black and white terms. No, comics professionals don't technically owe me anything, but I feel justified in making sure they meet a certain standard of quality before I spend money on them.

[Matt Algren]

I'm not downloading illegal comics because its free - its just how it is. I would love it if Marvel, Dc and the others would tackle this medium and regulate. I'd much rather have a neatly packaged collection that I can carry with me wherever I go instead of a disk labled in magic marker, but they simply have not addressed this medium to any real extent. My hope is that they will...someday.
Wait a minute. You're saying that you'd love to buy these comics that you're stealing if only there were a method in place for that. WTF?

Gosh, I wonder what that would look like? Imagine a magical place where you could just open a door and have hundreds of comics there for purchase. You wouldn't even have to pull out your magic marker. No sir, these comics would be pre-marked with professional printing. They'd have logos and everything!

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Can then help revive the industry - yes, but not because they are illegal.

So they can help the industry, but it's not their illegalness that's doing it?

Intresting.


I believe that they can introduce people to titles that might have gotten lost in the tide of comics unleashed in the 90's. They can make you fall in love with older comics or even new comics you might have not originally thought worth the investment.

But why would you be checking out comics on the net if your not intrested in them already?


I'm just saying that the comicbook industry is ignoring a tremendous revenue stream as well as a very powerful marketing tool.

Can't see it myself.
I'm sure once books start making serious money off of it comics will get in on the act - hell, Rich Johnston is doing it this month, and speakeasy comics has it's online distribution plan, maybe it's just the big two who are behind on the technology, not comics as a whole.
That said, this has nothing to do with illegal downloading.


Let's remember, the brick and motar stores are what drive the industry.

Their the outlet you can get comics from, yes.


Without them, new comics find their way back to the drugs and corner stores.

So if we get rid of comic book stores, comics will go back to the places that didn't want to sell them anymore, where lot's more people used to get them from.
If newsagents and corner stores would take comics back, I'd be happy to see the end of comic shops.


I'm not downloading illegal comics because its free - its just how it is. I would love it if Marvel, Dc and the others would tackle this medium and regulate.

So you'd pay to download then?

I'd much rather have a neatly packaged collection that I can carry with me wherever I go instead of a disk labled in magic marker, but they simply have not addressed this medium to any real extent. My hope is that they will...someday.

They have TPB's.
Which I would describe as a neatly pckaged collection of comics, so maybe they did actually address this one well over a decade ago.

[Tadhg Adams]

No, they don't "owe" us anything, but if they insist on making it necessary to read tie-in issues of Comics B, C, and D to understand what's going on in Comic A, and don't put in the effort to make Comics B, C, and D readable, I don't feel particularly compelled to pay for it.

Then maybe instead of illegally downloading B, C, and D. You should drop A?


They aren't obligated to provide good product, but neither am I obligated to financially support bad product.


Yeah, I've already said that.

[lukecage21]

Here we go again - yes I would gladly purchase them if they made them available in digital format. I have already purchased the Fantastic Four and Amazing Spiderman collections legally and have a advance order for the Avengers collection. But as far as I can tell, they don't have a collection of Astonishing Tales, What if and other titles from the past.

And just for your information I own originals of the Amazing Spiderman and Avengers dating back to issues number 10 of each title. I find it convient to have them in digital format as well and would gladly PAY for it if they made it available.

Again read all the posts - I wish they would address this medium (digital) for a multitude of reasons I won't rehash for the hundreth time. Use your back button for that.

[lukecage21]

One last thing - the reason why I started this post is because I wanted to hear from others so thanks to everyone who took the time to read and respond. Unfortuantely, I agree with just about every post on here to some extent.

Here's hoping that everyone has gotten a little food for thought regardless of which side of the fence they may be on.

[Watery Tart]

Then maybe instead of illegally downloading B, C, and D. You should drop A?Because I don't want to punish a book/creator I do like for being forced to participate in a crossover? Just as I personally find it morally repugnant to spend money on bad product, I also find it repugnant not to spend money on titles or creators I enjoy.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

But as far as I can tell, they don't have a collection of Astonishing Tales, What if and other titles from the past.


They do have it in the Essentials format though.

If you desperatly want it that is.

Because I don't want to punish a book/creator I do like for being forced to participate in a crossover? Just as I personally find it morally repugnant to spend money on bad product, I also find it repugnant not to spend money on titles or creators I enjoy.

But you could just not get those issues that tie in to this crossover.

See it less as punishing them, and more teaching them a lesson.
If sales take a dip on the crossover titles, companies will stop doing crossovers.

[lukecage21]

All good points if not somewhat overstated in some cases (including my own).

Yes I am aware that they have trades and essential collections. But they are not it digital format which is the medium I am referring to.

And for the record, most of what I download is stuff that I already own. I do sample titles I am unfamiliar with.

Again - I would pay for it if they would make it available legally. Absolutely (see post regarding Marvel Collections purchased). I'm just hoping that the illegal downloading will nudge the publishers in the direction of digital formats. I'm not saying don't print comics - I love my paper comics more, but the digital collections are more convient.

Why can't they put older collections on dvd and in read only format or whatever format would make reproducing it illegally more trouble than its worth? Then the people who want to get the digital formats can have what they want and the industry can open a whole new revenue stream for themselves?

And why are people still asking if I would pay for what I'm already downloading? I've already stated that most of what I've downloaded I already owned and I've been turned on to many new titles as well. Hell - I've even ventured into DC comics - after I read some for free.

This string has kind of gotten of the mark from the direction I was hoping for. Simply stated, digital comics has gotten me to spend even more than I might have with out the downloads. Thats just me - its not a rule or anything. All I want to know is why aren't they pursuing this more aggressively?

But thanks again for all your comments - food for thought....food for thought.

Oh...here's a link to a particularly interesting article regarding this subject - discussing the history and potential impact on the industry.

http://www.comicbookgalaxy.com/commentary_piracy_111504.html

It talks about the good, the bad, and the ugly of the scanning world plus has some comments from comic retailers on the impact on the business.

[DrewTheXenocide]

See it less as punishing them, and more teaching them a lesson.
If sales take a dip on the crossover titles, companies will stop doing crossovers.

But isn't that what he/she is actually doing by downloading the extraneous crossover titles anyway?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

But isn't that what he/she is actually doing by downloading the extraneous crossover titles anyway?

Well doing it illegally.

Quite frankly the deal is this - you pay for it if you want to read it.
If you don't pay for it, you don't get to read it.

If you still pick up book A, they still get money and go "oh look, sales stayed the same through the crossover, nobody minded that we broke up the flow of the usual story".
If people who don't like the cross over don't get the book that month and try somthing else (and even better, tell the retailer why) then crossovers will go away.

[Sir Tim Drake]

how about this analogy. someone who reads a comic in a comic shop right off the rack without paying for it? i see someone doing that nearly everytime i'm in my shop.
if it's harmful to anyone, why would the owners/workers at the shop permit it
they realize that if the guy reading it likes it, he may buy it. if he doesm't he won't buy it. if he didn't get to read it first, he also probably wouldn't have bought it. and what's the difference between that and dling one?

There is no substantial difference between this analogy and the Barnes & Noble analogy.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Yes, but how is the industry gonna stop people from downloading comics? I don't think they really can; at least no better than the Music or Movie industries have. I'm gonna echo what I said earlier: the comics industry need to jump on this and start offering digital downloads.

Well, I'm trying to do my part by publicly criticizing people who download comics. ;)

[thik_3rd]

There is no substantial difference between this analogy and the Barnes & Noble analogy.
theres a huge difference.
you can stand there and read the entire comic in 10 minutes at a comic store.
chances are, you can't read the entire book at barnes & noble.
the initial reason you gave when dismissing the b&n analogy is that someone can't read through the whole book in one sitting without buying it and walking out the store. with a comic, you can.

[thik_3rd]

Well, I'm trying to do my part by publicly criticizing people who download comics. ;)
for what exactly? potentially helping the comics industry, and all the creators and sellers who may benefit from people downloading?

[Tadhg Adams]

God bless, those people illegally downloading comics. They're doing a great service for humanity.

[thik_3rd]

God bless, those people illegally downloading comics. They're doing a great service for humanity.
why is it so hard for you to believe that the people who download comics may potentially buy some comics they wouldn't have otherwise if they never downloaded them? and that most people who only download comics wouldn't buy them if they couldn't download them?

[zilch]

Here's what i do.

there are TONS of groups on Yahoo, ect. that are fan bases for certain characters or companies.

I do Whos's Who entries and chronologies for DC, Quality and Fawcett characters for several webpages and a big fan of DC Golden Age stuff.

I find all sorts of info and images that i'd have to be Bill Gates to have access to on my own.

I don't download anything that has been archived, essentialed or showcased.

I own microfiche of GA stuff. I wish there was lots more.

I plan to put some of the stuff i own on the web so others can enjoy them, such as my Tomahawk collection (about 75% finished) and some other golden age stuff.

So when DC comes out with a Dr. Mid-Nite Archive Volume 6, or Sally O'Neil collections or a Bozo the Iron Man Showcase, i'll keep on reading a bunch of great golden age stuff.

[Watery Tart]

Well doing it illegally.

Quite frankly the deal is this - you pay for it if you want to read it.
If you don't pay for it, you don't get to read it.

If you still pick up book A, they still get money and go "oh look, sales stayed the same through the crossover, nobody minded that we broke up the flow of the usual story".
If people who don't like the cross over don't get the book that month and try somthing else (and even better, tell the retailer why) then crossovers will go away.It depends on the book, for the most part. If it's a low-seller, I'll still buy it through the crossover because my desire to support it outweighs my desire to teach the company a lesson. If it's not in any danger cancellation, I sometimes do decide not to buy it. But in those cases I may occasionally flip through in the store and/or download to see if anything happened that I'll need to know once the crossover is done. This isn't limited to crossovers; I'll occasionally apply it to certain creators, but it has to be an extreme case - like, pretty much only Liefeld.

[Tadhg Adams]

why is it so hard for you to believe that the people who download comics may potentially buy some comics they wouldn't have otherwise if they never downloaded them? and that most people who only download comics wouldn't buy them if they couldn't download them?

There's a keyword there, potentially. And you have no proof as to how high or low that potential is, and it's still illegal. I personally don't care if you want to illegally download comics, but to act like it's benefitting anyone but yourself is just silly and disingenuous

[thik_3rd]

There's a keyword there, potentially. And you have no proof as to how high or low that potential is, and it's still illegal. I personally don't care if you want to illegally download comics, but to act like it's benefitting anyone but yourself is just silly and disingenuous
it doesn't matter how high or low the potential is, the fact that the potential exists is what matters.

and i've said many times throughout this thread that i realize it's illegal, but just because it's illegal doesn't make it wrong. and i've given a few examples of how i know first hand it's benefitted others in this thread as well.

[Tadhg Adams]

Then there's also the potential for it to lower sales, hurt creators, and cancel books. If all that matters is that potential exists.

[Fireball]

I can kind of understand downloading comics for terms of reference in the case of older, out of print books, but seriously, if your are just doing it to read the book, go out buy the actual comic, support a local business, support the creative team, and if you don't like it, no one is forcing you to read it again, total cost, at the very most (not including transportation) a couple of bucks. You get a better quality of image and something you can read in a power outage (if you have some sort of light source, of course) and the warm feeling of helping make the economy a stronger place.:D

Downloading should be reserved for what it was originally intended for; music and pornograpghy.

[thik_3rd]

Then there's also the potential for it to lower sales, hurt creators, and cancel books. If all that matters is that potential exists.
so at worst, the potentials cancel each other out, so there is no net effect.

[Kid Omega]

I stopped responding to this thread pages ago, when it became clear that the people illegally downloading were going to rationalize their actions any way they could.

When it became even more clear that they were rationalizing to the point that illegally downloading was actually *helping* comics, I said "f*@# it". There's no reasoning with people who are that detached from reality or responsibility. It is very frustrating and sad to read.

Plenty of creators shop at my store (a couple who work on books mentioned in this thread), and some of them put comics on the web for free. But if they don't, it's because they want people to *buy* the book. They do not appreciate illegal downloads.

There is no evidence that downloading books actually helps sales, and for every anecdote wherein people buy books after downloading, I can can counter with an anecdote wherein people use downloading to save money.

Comic companies should probably get together a pay digital format. There is a demand, and it could be good for them. But just because they probably *should* do this, does not mean that it's okay to illegally download. They have reasons that those books are only available in print format, and until they say otherwise, if you want to read a book, you NEED TO BUY IT.

Otherwise, you are STEALING, and no matter how you rationalize it to yourself, you are a thief.

[Kid Omega]

And again, I'm talking about CURRENT COMICS.

If you're downloading older books where there are no current reprints, and the creator royalties are not an issue, then it is, actually, a victimless crime.

In other words, if you're downloading BOMBA THE JUNGLE BOY you're awesome. If you're downloading THE ULTIMATES, you're not so awesome.

[Michael P]

It depends on the book, for the most part. If it's a low-seller, I'll still buy it through the crossover because my desire to support it outweighs my desire to teach the company a lesson. If it's not in any danger cancellation, I sometimes do decide not to buy it. But in those cases I may occasionally flip through in the store and/or download to see if anything happened that I'll need to know once the crossover is done. This isn't limited to crossovers; I'll occasionally apply it to certain creators, but it has to be an extreme case - like, pretty much only Liefeld.
Well, you can get all that information without downloading. Heck, I "read" House of M entirely through spoiler threads here at CBR, God bless 'em. I'm "reading" Infinite Crisis that way too. And skirting around the various Villains United threads convinced me to buy the trade when it came out.

[Michael P]

And again, I'm talking about CURRENT COMICS.

If you're downloading older books where there are no current reprints, and the creator royalties are not an issue, then it is, actually, a victimless crime.

In other words, if you're downloading BOMBA THE JUNGLE BOY you're awesome. If you're downloading THE ULTIMATES, you're not so awesome.
Because they're directly affecting the bottom line of people working right now, or because they have awful taste?

[thik_3rd]

And again, I'm talking about CURRENT COMICS.

If you're downloading older books where there are no current reprints, and the creator royalties are not an issue, then it is, actually, a victimless crime.

In other words, if you're downloading BOMBA THE JUNGLE BOY you're awesome. If you're downloading THE ULTIMATES, you're not so awesome.
it's not a victimless crime. thevictims are comic retailers you don't buy the back issues from in the shop.
this stance you're taking that dling some comics is ok and others isn't is pretty self serving. it's either all ok, or all not ok.

[Kid Omega]

it's not a victimless crime. thevictims are comic retailers you don't buy the back issues from in the shop.
this stance you're taking that dling some comics is ok and others isn't is pretty self serving. it's either all ok, or all not ok.

So reading comics for free on-line isn't self-serving? But somehow I *am*. This conversation is amazing.

I'm saying that if someone downloads an ancient comic that they can't find anywhere else, and no one stands to lose any money, except possibly a used book dealer somewhere, it's not quite as bad as someone downloading a new book, wherein a publisher, creator, and a store stand to lose money. There is an enormous difference...

And suddenly you want to talk in moral absolutes.

Can Trix or someone pick this one up> I have to shovel snow.

-a

[StoneGold]

Something to think about though. The technology is out there, the genie is out of the bottle, and you can't shove it back in. The question is, can the comic book companies figure out a way to use the technology, which people apparently want to use, and profit off it? People have always said that the music and movie industries missed the boat by attacking the tech instead of somehow embracing it. Will the same go for comics?

[Chevan]

Can Trix or someone pick this one up> I have to shovel snow.

-a

I'm not Trix, but I'll try my hand while you're out.

it's not a victimless crime. thevictims are comic retailers you don't buy the back issues from in the shop.
this stance you're taking that dling some comics is ok and others isn't is pretty self serving. it's either all ok, or all not ok.

Let's take a random comic. Call it Comic R. Now, you've got a deep, deep passion for Comic R, but it's literally impossible to find in bookstores. It's been out of print for twenty years. No comic shop within a fifty mile radius has copies of it (and even beyond that it's sketchy), no online dealer has it available, you can't find it on eBay, you've futilely checked your local classifieds... nothing. You can't find it anywhere. So, you decide to dl it. The only person that lost out here is some used book store in, say, Nova Scotia.

Now let's look at Comic G. Comic G is still in print, and everyone has copies of it. Seriously, even your bratty neighbor collects this thing, and he's five. You could spend ten minutes driving to your local comic shop and pick the latest issue up for three bucks, but you really don't feel like it. So, you decide to dl it. The people that lost out here are your local comic shop, the creators, the publishing company, and probably a bunch of other people I'm forgetting.

Downloading Comic R is technically illegal, sure. However, it's much, much lower on the scale than downloading Comic G is.

[thik_3rd]

So reading comics for free on-line isn't self-serving? But somehow I *am*. This conversation is amazing.

i'm not saying it's not self serving, but to say one is and the other isn't is ridiculous. what amazes me is the fact that you can't admit to the possible good dling comics can bring about.


Let's take a random comic. Call it Comic R. Now, you've got a deep, deep passion for Comic R, but it's literally impossible to find in bookstores. It's been out of print for twenty years. No comic shop within a fifty mile radius has copies of it (and even beyond that it's sketchy), no online dealer has it available, you can't find it on eBay, you've futilely checked your local classifieds... nothing. You can't find it anywhere. So, you decide to dl it. The only person that lost out here is some used book store in, say, Nova Scotia.
that's an extreme case. if it were as rare as you make it out to be, it wouldn't be available for download either. regardless, in your example someone still gets hurt technically.


Now let's look at Comic G. Comic G is still in print, and everyone has copies of it. Seriously, even your bratty neighbor collects this thing, and he's five. You could spend ten minutes driving to your local comic shop and pick the latest issue up for three bucks, but you really don't feel like it. So, you decide to dl it. The people that lost out here are your local comic shop, the creators, the publishing company, and probably a bunch of other people I'm forgetting.

another extreme case. a lot of these people wouldn't be buying the comic whether it was available for download or not.

i guess a lot of the people here haven't spent much time on places like mirc, dc++, or dling forums. there are people out there that don't buy anything -- comics, music, movies, software, games. they dl things for the sake of dling things. if it wasn't available to dl, they'd go without. it seems incredible to me, and i'm someone who's witnessed it. i'd imagine for the rest of you you probably don't even believe me on this subject, but there's a whole sub culture of people like that out there. no these people are not hurting sales of whatever they dl. in terms of comics -- the comics industry isn't losing a sale to them when they dl a comic, because they wouldn't buy the comic even if they didn't dl it. no one loses from this scenario.

the critics in this thread all seem to be ignoring the fact that there are people out there who will buy a comic after downloading it. they dl a few comics, see what they like, and then start buying. this is good for everyone involved in comics. why are you ignoring this?

[Chevan]

I used extreme cases because it shows the differences between the two much better. You're right, maybe I should have used examples that better reflected normal situations, but then it would have been a much more gray issue.

the critics in this thread all seem to be ignoring the fact that there are people out there who will buy a comic after downloading it. they dl a few comics, see what they like, and then start buying. this is good for everyone involved in comics. why are you ignoring this?

It's been pointed out before, but for every person that uses the "Try before you buy" method, there's another one that downloads exclusively to save money.

no these people are not hurting sales of whatever they dl. in terms of comics -- the comics industry isn't losing a sale to them when they dl a comic, because they wouldn't buy the comic even if they didn't dl it. no one loses from this scenario.

No, they are losing sales. It comes down to this: If you want to read a comic, you buy it. Just because you wouldn't have bought it anyway doesn't give you a free lunch. I said it earlier, but here's a recap of what I'm seeing with the "I wouldn't have bought it anyway" excuse:

"I want to read this comic. However, I really don't feel like paying for it, so I guess I'll have to pass. Ooooh, wait! I can just download it! They didn't really lose a sale, I wasn't going to buy it anyway!"

[Cephus]

theres a huge difference.
you can stand there and read the entire comic in 10 minutes at a comic store.
chances are, you can't read the entire book at barnes & noble.
the initial reason you gave when dismissing the b&n analogy is that someone can't read through the whole book in one sitting without buying it and walking out the store. with a comic, you can.

Of course, it's been pointed out already that people not only can read entire books (or manga or TPBs) but they *DO*. And they do so with the blessing of Barnes & Noble. Of course, B&N is hoping you're going to go buy a latte while you're reading, but there's no obligation to do so.

[Cephus]

And again, I'm talking about CURRENT COMICS.

If you're downloading older books where there are no current reprints, and the creator royalties are not an issue, then it is, actually, a victimless crime.

In other words, if you're downloading BOMBA THE JUNGLE BOY you're awesome. If you're downloading THE ULTIMATES, you're not so awesome.

So you get mad at people for trying to justify their actions, yet you try to justify yourself with the above? Regardless of whether they have current reprints, downloading comics is technically illegal.

Make up your mind.

[Cephus]

Now let's look at Comic G. Comic G is still in print, and everyone has copies of it. Seriously, even your bratty neighbor collects this thing, and he's five. You could spend ten minutes driving to your local comic shop and pick the latest issue up for three bucks, but you really don't feel like it. So, you decide to dl it. The people that lost out here are your local comic shop, the creators, the publishing company, and probably a bunch of other people I'm forgetting.

Actually, the only person who loses out here is the local comic shop, they've already purchased the comic and it's non-returnable. The creators, the publishing company, etc. has already been paid for it, whether you buy it or it sits in the back issue bin.

[Kid Omega]

So you get mad at people for trying to justify their actions, yet you try to justify yourself with the above? Regardless of whether they have current reprints, downloading comics is technically illegal.

Make up your mind.

We've determined that it's illegal.

But a lot of people think that it isn't wrong, despite that.

I figured as long as we're playing "shades of grey" here, i'd explain why one is more of a victimless crime than the other.

And by the way, I'm not trying to justify jack-shit. I don't download comics, period.

[Kid Omega]

Actually, the only person who loses out here is the local comic shop, they've already purchased the comic and it's non-returnable. The creators, the publishing company, etc. has already been paid for it, whether you buy it or it sits in the back issue bin.

You do know that most comic shops cut their numbers on books that don't sell, yes?

[Chevan]

Actually, the only person who loses out here is the local comic shop, they've already purchased the comic and it's non-returnable. The creators, the publishing company, etc. has already been paid for it, whether you buy it or it sits in the back issue bin.

What, comics never earn royalties?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

In the last few years Marvel has taken steps to try and see where the industry is going. Thier issueing DVD-Rom and Computer collections of thier long running titles like Amazing Spiderman , Fantastic Four and X-Men. DC is rumored to be taking steps towards this as well.


The world has changed. People can turn on a computer and read an issue online at some sights are at places people have them avliable for download. Marvel and DC have let a few of thier comics come online for download.


I never really like downloading comics because its not like reading them in my hands. Its sort of the reason I'm at issue #171 of Amazing Spiderman in my DVD-Rom collection. I just don't like it.

Others do however. Are they wrong ? Well the fact is the industry is slowly losing ground due to variety of reasons so its not like theres a huge force of people downloading Superman 226# . Theres more downloading music , tv and movies at this point.

I do think that Marvel and DC will do more net-comics as time goes on and release more computer collections. This way they can be geared towards the changing market out there now.

As Stonegold said the genie is outta the bottle and its best to use it. Because people will find anything for free. Thats how the world works . ;)

[PatrickG]

What, comics never earn royalties?

Very rarely. Only the TOP books on the market earn royalties for creators.

Every download lowers the odds of a creator seeing a royalty check.

[Sir Tim Drake]

the critics in this thread all seem to be ignoring the fact that there are people out there who will buy a comic after downloading it. they dl a few comics, see what they like, and then start buying. this is good for everyone involved in comics. why are you ignoring this?

I concede that there may be some potential, speculative, anecdotal benefit to downloading comics. I just don't think it justifies the obvious, concrete harm.

[Ray R.]

I concede that there may be some potential, speculative, anecdotal benefit to downloading comics. I just don't think it justifies the obvious, concrete harm.

I concur. The anecdotal and presumptive benefit that a free sample on the Internet is going to inspire someone to a.) locate a local comic shop, however distant that might be, b.) find a similar comic or one of the same title, and c.) spend the $3.00 and get hooked on comics is a stretch.

Let's look at two other anecdotal examples, just for shits and giggles: I walk into a Whole Foods Market, and I see free samples, be it cheese, crackers, pepperoni, or the like. How many times out of ten do I decide to drop the $6.00 on the cheese, or the $3.00 on the crackers, or the $7.00 on the pepperoni after trying one or two bites of the freebies. Ummm....for me, so far, none. It was a free snack, thanks for shopping at Whole Foods. It's not that I can't afford to buy the food, it's just that after the free sample, I'm not that interested in buying the whole slab of cheese.

And of course, there's Internet porn -- the creme de la creme', the undisputed king of all crack dealers when it comes to the old Seduction of the Innocent-style enticement package -- "come on, the first taste is free." Maybe there are millions of guys and gals dropping millions upon millions of dollars on Internet porn because of it, but how many guys are using that free sample of Internet porn to start buying hard copies down at the late-night video place. "Honey, wait in the car, I'm just stopping into the "UP ALL NIGHT" store to buy some really hard core pornography, because I got some free samples on the Internet yesterday. I'm intrigued by all-Asian gangbangs thanks to the free samples"

My anecdotal evidence says that free stuff encourages the desire for more free stuff. But that's just me.

And then there's the whole royalties for the artist thing, and copyright protections, and the proper application of rule of thumb understandings of "fair use", etc., but maybe that's just standing up for "The Man."

[Kid Omega]

Let's look at two other anecdotal examples, just for shits and giggles: I walk into a Whole Foods Market, and I see free samples, be it cheese, crackers, pepperoni, or the like. How many times out of ten do I decide to drop the $6.00 on the cheese, or the $3.00 on the crackers, or the $7.00 on the pepperoni after trying one or two bites of the freebies. Ummm....for me, so far, none. It was a free snack, thanks for shopping at Whole Foods. It's not that I can't afford to buy the food, it's just that after the free sample, I'm not that interested in buying the whole slab of cheese.


Or to further the analogy, you want some cheese, and you get it for free because you it off the shelf without payting for it.

Chances are you took the cheese because you want it but you don't want to pay for it.

Chances are slim that you will say, "I'd like to buy more of that cheese I just stole."

I like these Whole Foods analogies.

[Matt Algren]

Let's look at two other anecdotal examples, just for shits and giggles: I walk into a Whole Foods Market, and I see free samples, be it cheese, crackers, pepperoni, or the like. How many times out of ten do I decide to drop the $6.00 on the cheese, or the $3.00 on the crackers, or the $7.00 on the pepperoni after trying one or two bites of the freebies. Ummm....for me, so far, none. It was a free snack, thanks for shopping at Whole Foods. It's not that I can't afford to buy the food, it's just that after the free sample, I'm not that interested in buying the whole slab of cheese.
But let's say you did decide to purchase cheese, crackers, pepperoni, or the like because of the awesomeness of the samples. That still wouldn't mean that it's okay to go into Whole Foods Market and open up a jar of mayonnaise because you want to see what it tastes like.

If the store wants to give away samples, great, but their failure to do so doesn't mean that shoppers get to start stealing stuff to see if they want to buy some.

[Ray R.]

But let's say you did decide to purchase cheese, crackers, pepperoni, or the like because of the awesomeness of the samples. That still wouldn't mean that it's okay to go into Whole Foods Market and open up a jar of mayonnaise because you want to see what it tastes like.

If the store wants to give away samples, great, but their failure to do so doesn't mean that shoppers get to start stealing stuff to see if they want to buy some.


You guys make my analogies better than I do.

Reminds me, I have to stop at Whole Foods on the way home. Try out some mayonnaise.....

[Kid Omega]

You guys make my analogies better than I do.

Reminds me, I have to stop at Whole Foods on the way home. Try out some mayonnaise.....

According to some folks on this thread, if you don't plan on buying the mayo to begin with, it's okay to eat it all in the store.

Victimless crime!

[Matt Algren]

Reminds me, I have to stop at Whole Foods on the way home. Try out some mayonnaise.....Just make sure you go late at night. That way, when the stock boys are busy in aisle three, you can taste-test at your leisure. What the heck, stop off and get a few slices of bread first while you're at it.

[Ray R.]

According to some folks on this thread, if you don't plan on buying the mayo to begin with, it's okay to eat it all in the store.

Victimless crime!

But doesn't the whole mayonnaise industry succeed when someone like me eats a whole jar in the store? (Jesus, so much for my cholesterol.....better have the paddles ready to restart my heart)

I might tell others about how good it is! Start a wave of mayonnaise mania, thanks to my eating as much as I can for free......

[Ray R.]

Just make sure you go late at night. That way, when the stock boys are busy in aisle three, you can taste-test at your leisure. What the heck, stop off and get a few slices of bread first while you're at it.

Hey, the supermarkets make enough money anyway. I'll grab a bottle of vino, some fruit and have a nice little picnic in the produce section.

One man's shoplifting is another man's taste-testing.

[thik_3rd]

the whole foods analogy is on point for a reason you're all missing. whether you ate that cheese or not you wouldn't have spent any money at whole foods.

for the majority of downlaoders, they're not going to be buying these comics whether they download them or not. no one is losing this way. therefore, it's not wrong.

[Ray R.]

the whole foods analogy is on point for a reason you're all missing. whether you ate that cheese or not you wouldn't have spent any money at whole foods.

for the majority of downlaoders, they're not going to be buying these comics whether they download them or not. no one is losing this way. therefore, it's not wrong.

Seriously, you're kidding, right?

If I'm chomping up inventory and not spending any money at Whole Foods, then noone gets hurt? Not the original seller of the product, nor the retailer, both of whom had to expend resources to put the "free product" on the shelves?

Artists, writers, comic book companies and retailers expend resources, tremendous amounts of resources, in order to produce and sell items that they expect to make some, fuck it, ANY, return on their investment. When people download the unauthorized copying of these resources without any contribution to the originators, then the artists, writers, comic book companies and retailers receive NOTHING for their resource output, zero, zilch, nada. They have EVERYTHING to lose, so maybe it's big whoop if the people grabbing downloads don't have the comics to download anymore, but they lose nothing. The originators, packagers and sellers of the content lose, because they receive NOTHING for their investment from downloaders. It's that simple.

Economics do NOT exist in a vacuum. If a product is diluted, damaged or distributed through unfair means outside the normal channels of distribution, then the negative effect on the product affects the entire distribution chain. This is basic capitalism.

And the fact remains -- it's copyright infringement, clear and simple. The company or artist can provide samples or select pieces into the public domain for critical review, advertisement or other purposes, but when you put entire works of original fiction up for download, it's patently and irredeemably illegal. Rationalize it anyway you want, it's against the law. And it HURTS the artists, writers, companies and retailers because it's clearly UNREALIZED REVENUE, whether the stealer of the material was going to ever buy a comic or not.

Are we that unprincipled a society, to think you can take a piece of fiction, put it on a scanner, and say "free lunch?" I certainly hope not, and if people are making money by doing so, that's criminal behavior, clear and simple.

It is wrong. Incredibly wrong.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Or to further the analogy, you want some cheese, and you get it for free because you it off the shelf without payting for it.

Chances are you took the cheese because you want it but you don't want to pay for it.

Chances are slim that you will say, "I'd like to buy more of that cheese I just stole."

I like these Whole Foods analogies.

As it happens, we have a poster at CBR who can testify that this is a valid analogy.

I don't think Roquefort Raider has any desire to pay good money for cheese, when he's already getting it for free.

[Matt Algren]

the whole foods analogy is on point for a reason you're all missing. whether you ate that cheese or not you wouldn't have spent any money at whole foods.

for the majority of downlaoders, they're not going to be buying these comics whether they download them or not. no one is losing this way. therefore, it's not wrong.
Did you hear that pop just now? That's the sound of my brain exploding from too much bullshit intake.

Seriously, even you don't buy that excuse. There's no way that you could say that out loud with a straight face.