Which Marvel Character should have stayed dead?

[spaz]

I vote Green Goblin. I thought it was stupid to bring him back after almost 20 years later and then have him kidnap Spiderman's kid(which has been erased from Marvel continuity) and then getting Gwen Stacy pregnant. Ridiculous!

[Cash Lone]

All of them, except Hawkeye.

[Neolucifer]

Doop !!!


I vote Green Goblin. I thought it was stupid to bring him back after almost 20 years later and then have him kidnap Spiderman's kid(which has been erased from Marvel continuity) and then getting Gwen Stacy pregnant. Ridiculous!
Er it wouldnt change sins past , to have him still dead , it was all in flashbacks .
And well sure it might have been better to keep HArry around as a green Goblin .

[agrich]

I vote Green Goblin.

Second. In fact, I choose to believe he did stay dead, and any issues in recent years featuring him since he was skewered on his own goblin glider back in Spider-man 122 simply didn't happen.

Some will call this denial, but I choose to call it respecting the original story and creators over the idiots who decided to bring him back.

[davros42]

Green Goblin and Jean Grey.

Runners-up: Professor X and/or Magneto

[Shellhead]

Bucky
Green Goblin
Aunt May
Fu Manchu (Marvel didn't have the right to use the character, but they brought him back anyway and referred to him indirectly.)

[Young Avenger]

Norman Osborn

[DDM]

Green Goblin I
Phoenix I (Jean Grey)
Gwen Stacey
Bucky

[Young Avenger]

Green Goblin I
Phoenix I (Jean Grey)
Gwen Stacey
Bucky

You didn't like the Winter Soldier arc?

[DDM]

You didn't like the Winter Soldier arc?

Bucky, like Uncle Ben, are characters who should remain dead under any circumstance.

[Violently Apathetic]

Bah, I'll accept Bucky simply because the story is well written and the explanation for his return is plausible. I actually don’t mind Norman Osborn’s return either. I like the dynamic between him and Peter. That said I hate the Goblin babies. Hate them, hate them, HATE THEM...and I really hope they don't bring back Harry Osborn. I love Harry, but he's better a victim of his father's poisoned legacy than a zombie Green Goblin.

I want Jean to stay dead.

Hate them....

[Smarty Jones]

The Green Goblin. It seemed like the quality of Spider-Man's books went down with the resurrection of Norman Osborn. Subsequently, he became as overused as The Joker -- complete with some bad storylines (Peter and Mary Jane's daughter, "Sins Past").

Jean Grey. The mother of all resurrections that dimimished death in comic books. In the 15-plus years of her resurrection, save her marriage to Cyclops I cannot think of a major storyline of importance starring her that could not have been resolved by keeping Madelyne Pryor.

Bucky. Like Ben Parker, there are some deaths that never should be undone -- and Bucky's is one of them.

Aunt May. A central character to the Spider-Man mythos, but her ridiculously lame resurrection is a textbook example of how this plot device has made a mockery of dramatic storytelling.

Colossus. He died a poignant death, which was invalidated by a story where he runs out of a prison cell yelling "Where am I?"

[Young Avenger]

Bucky, like Uncle Ben, are characters who should remain dead under any circumstance.

I don't think that Bucky is in the same league as Uncle Ben. Bucky's death wasn't the reason why Steve Rogers became Captain America. Also add to the fact that Bucky's death was a retcon by Stan Lee and that his body was never recovered. Not actually a death I would hold sacred.

[Citizen V]

The Green Goblin-He had one of the most memorable deaths in Marvel history,why write that off and say he was still alive all these years?I dont like what writers have done to him.

Colossus-I have not heard anything from him since he was reserected in Astonishing X-Men.He should have stayed dead.

Jean Grey-Jean should be brought back from the dead,Emma Frost dies.

[abyss]

Hellcat although I ahve nothign agaisnt her character her death was one of the tragic ones. They brought her back for what to appear in a 3 issue mini and never been heard from again.

[thik_3rd]

Hellcat although I ahve nothign agaisnt her character her death was one of the tragic ones. They brought her back for what to appear in a 3 issue mini and never been heard from again.
she was in defenders volume 2, the order, and an avengers annual after that.

[venomslash]

they should have saved hawkeye.

[Drifter]

Doop !!!



Er it wouldnt change sins past , to have him still dead , it was all in flashbacks .
And well sure it might have been better to keep HArry around as a green Goblin .

How did Doop bite it in the first place?

[Knightosis]

All of them. Really, resurrections only cheapen the deep or dramatic story
telling of the character's death.

Jean Grey? Tragic. Now? A joke.

Green Goblin? Excellent. Now? A HORRIBLE joke.

etc.

Any character who was killed off in a lackluster way, (in other words, they got
killed based off of retarded story-telling) need to be brought back.

[Faded]

All the ones that I think should stay dead are still dead.

But there are plenty I wish would come back. :(

[Den]

I enjoyed X-Factor when it came out, so was willing to forgive Jean's return. In retrospect though, I think resurrecting her was indeed a mistake.

And yeah, I wish Norman had stayed dead.

[darkhawk76]

I agree with with Green Goblin & Bucky choices

how old is the Winter Soldier?

I dropped Cap after HoM story (very good) for money reasons, so I don't know exactly how they got round the fact that Bucky should be in his 70/80's now

I'm sure the whole story arc turned out great, it's just I couldn't see the point in bringing back Bucky after 60 plus years dead (going by current continuity)

as for the GG, I mostly dislike his ressurrection as he suddenly became responsible for practically every crap thing that's happened to Spidey in recent years (parents returning, baby kidnapped, ex-girlfriend pregnant with twins etc)

[WoodenDummy]

Aunt May. A central character to the Spider-Man mythos, but her ridiculously lame resurrection is a textbook example of how this plot device has made a mockery of dramatic storytelling.

I really was moved when May died, when they dragged her back like they did it put me off Marvel for some time.

[The Joker]

The Green Goblin. It seemed like the quality of Spider-Man's books went down with the resurrection of Norman Osborn. Subsequently, he became as overused as The Joker -- complete with some bad storylines (Peter and Mary Jane's daughter, "Sins Past").

Jean Grey. The mother of all resurrections that dimimished death in comic books. In the 15-plus years of her resurrection, save her marriage to Cyclops I cannot think of a major storyline of importance starring her that could not have been resolved by keeping Madelyne Pryor.

Bucky. Like Ben Parker, there are some deaths that never should be undone -- and Bucky's is one of them.

Aunt May. A central character to the Spider-Man mythos, but her ridiculously lame resurrection is a textbook example of how this plot device has made a mockery of dramatic storytelling.

Colossus. He died a poignant death, which was invalidated by a story where he runs out of a prison cell yelling "Where am I?"

Agreed on all accounts.

Any character who was killed off in a lackluster way, (in other words, they got
killed based off of retarded story-telling) need to be brought back.

Doc Ock falls under this catagory. And he was one of the few I was very happy with seeing resurrected.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Here's my problem, out of all the people who people posted about about, I only agree with three. And those three are Magneto, Hellcat, and Green Goblin.

I'm only going to state the reasons why Jean and Bucky should not have stayed dead.

Jean - She the Phoenix. The Phoenix rises from the ashes. She's bound to come back to life. You don't think of her as a joke when you understand how she works. Frankily, I don't like the fact she has never had the chance to truly establish herself as a character without Cyclops and death, and that's not fair. Writers and fans should give her a chance.

Bucky - Read the interviews from Brubaker, he has clearly shown why bringing back Bucky would work, unlike Winnick and that Jason Todd situation. I also kinda like Winter Soldier.

[steven]

i agree with aunt may it was an awful decision to bring her back!!

i liked it when the norman osbourne first came back, but now i could take him or leave him!!


i am very pleased that jean came back, in the 90's she was great, but i havnt liked her so much recently though!! :rolleyes:

[Agentum]

Bucky, no point in bringing back a charcter that "died" that long ago, who here was around and read comics with that character?

[The Fury]

how old is the Winter Soldier?

I dropped Cap after HoM story (very good) for money reasons, so I don't know exactly how they got round the fact that Bucky should be in his 70/80's now

It was told in the Cap A book that Winter Soldier was frozen and then revived when ever he was needed.



Colossus is a big one that should have stayed dead. Especially now I've seen what has been done with him since his ressurection. Absolutly squat. Waste of a ressurection if therer ever was one.

[darkhawk76]

It was told in the Cap A book that Winter Soldier was frozen and then revived when ever he was needed.


wow that's convenient :p

[geordiesteve]

Bucky, like Uncle Ben, are characters who should remain dead under any circumstance.

I agree.

And Jean Grey, I mean since we now have Rachel, I think the character is called.

[Perry Holley]

The Green Goblin. It seemed like the quality of Spider-Man's books went down with the resurrection of Norman Osborn. Subsequently, he became as overused as The Joker -- complete with some bad storylines (Peter and Mary Jane's daughter, "Sins Past").

Jean Grey. The mother of all resurrections that dimimished death in comic books. In the 15-plus years of her resurrection, save her marriage to Cyclops I cannot think of a major storyline of importance starring her that could not have been resolved by keeping Madelyne Pryor.

Bucky. Like Ben Parker, there are some deaths that never should be undone -- and Bucky's is one of them.

Aunt May. A central character to the Spider-Man mythos, but her ridiculously lame resurrection is a textbook example of how this plot device has made a mockery of dramatic storytelling.

Colossus. He died a poignant death, which was invalidated by a story where he runs out of a prison cell yelling "Where am I?"Pretty much in total agreement here.

[Morw]

Everybody that died should stay dead. the only exception is Jean Grey, she is the Phonix. The whole point of the phonix is to ressurect from the ashes of its onw death pyre.

I hate it when they bring back somebody who died. People who die stay dead. The death is the end.

That said, people who pretend to die should be able to be brought back.

The rules should be corpse means no return.

[Sandy Hausler]

I vote Green Goblin. I thought it was stupid to bring him back after almost 20 years later and then have him kidnap Spiderman's kid(which has been erased from Marvel continuity) and then getting Gwen Stacy pregnant. Ridiculous!

Uh, Bucky.

Sandy Hausler

[Smarty Jones]

"Jean - She the Phoenix. The Phoenix rises from the ashes. She's bound to come back to life. You don't think of her as a joke when you understand how she works. Frankily, I don't like the fact she has never had the chance to truly establish herself as a character without Cyclops and death, and that's not fair. Writers and fans should give her a chance."

You can play it literal with her name, but what did resurrecting Jean Grey accomplish that it required compromising one of Marvel's greatest stories? OK, she married Cyclops, but that was a proxy role first done by Madelyne Pryor. Basically, she was brought back to play the roles that Cyclops' first wife could or should have played.

"Bucky - Read the interviews from Brubaker, he has clearly shown why bringing back Bucky would work, unlike Winnick and that Jason Todd situation. I also kinda like Winter Soldier.

I feel the more accurate term is you like the storyline itself, not necessarily the character starring in the role. If you substituted another character, you would have had the same result -- I don't think it's anything intrinsic Bucky himself brought to the table.

Not only that, at least characters like Grey and Hal Jordan had a fan base that wanted them back -- I can't recall any "Bring Back Bucky!" campaigns.

[Pookienick]

Not only that, at least characters like Grey and Hal Jordan had a fan base that wanted them back -- I can't recall any "Bring Back Bucky!" campaigns.

I tend to think that a characters return is better if it isn't done because of the demands of the fans. The return of Bucky wasn't demanded or expected which made the story that much better. It does help it was written by one of the best comic writers around. Whenever Jean Grey comes back it's expected so it has no impact at all.

Also, stories driven 'because the fans demanded it' are rarely very good.

[Smarty Jones]

"I tend to think that a characters return is better if it isn't done because of the demands of the fans. The return of Bucky wasn't demanded or expected which made the story that much better. It does help it was written by one of the best comic writers around. Whenever Jean Grey comes back it's expected so it has no impact at all.

Also, stories driven 'because the fans demanded it' are rarely very good."

You're missing the points:

1.) The Winter Soldier story would have been the same no matter what character was used. The story wasn't dependent on bringing back Bucky; you could have used any World War II-era character and gotten the same result.

2.) Now that the story seems to be over -- what now? You've compromised a key death in Marvel's history and a key aspect of one of your top characters. What stories can you hope will be relevant having a resurrected Bucky?

3.) It's not an issue of "back by popular demand" as much as does the Marvel Universe gain by having Bucky resurrected. How does bringing back Bucky from the dead make Marvel a better universe? What does it mean to the other characters in Captain America's book and across the Marvel Universe?

My point is Bucky is more significanct in the Marvel Universe dead than alive, just like Ben Parker is. There's more to lose with Bucky alive, because he really adds nothing to the Marvel Universe as a resurrected Cold War-created hired gun.

[Sandy Hausler]

You're missing the points:

1.) The Winter Soldier story would have been the same no matter what character was used. The story wasn't dependent on bringing back Bucky; you could have used any World War II-era character and gotten the same result.

I'm not sure you're correct, Smarty. Clearly, the effect on Cap that his WWII partner, who he believed had died, was actually alive, would not have been replicated by the substitution of say Junior Juniper (hey, maybe it IS Junior and not Bucky).

That being said, I think it was a bad idea to bring Bucky back, but, hey, what can I do about it (except complain)?

Sandy Hausler

[agrich]

[QUOTE=Smarty Jones]You can play it literal with her name, but what did resurrecting Jean Grey accomplish that it required compromising one of Marvel's greatest stories? OK, she married Cyclops, but that was a proxy role first done by Madelyne Pryor. Basically, she was brought back to play the roles that Cyclops' first wife could or should have played.

Having read it all as it happened I agree with you somewhat about the original story being compromised. HOWEVER, it's worth mentioning that the original story had already been compromised from what creators Chris Claremont and John Byrne originallly wrote/intended. In their original version of X-Men 137, Jean Grey survived, stripped of her powers by the Shi'Ar. Then Editor-in-chief Jim Shooter forced them to change the story so that she died.

So the fact that John Bryne resurrected a character that he and Claremont didn't intend to kill in the first place made it somewhat more understandable.

[DDM]

[QUOTE=Smarty Jones]You can play it literal with her name, but what did resurrecting Jean Grey accomplish that it required compromising one of Marvel's greatest stories? OK, she married Cyclops, but that was a proxy role first done by Madelyne Pryor. Basically, she was brought back to play the roles that Cyclops' first wife could or should have played.

Having read it all as it happened I agree with you somewhat about the original story being compromised. HOWEVER, it's worth mentioning that the original story had already been compromised from what creators Chris Claremont and John Byrne originallly wrote/intended. In their original version of X-Men 137, Jean Grey survived, stripped of her powers by the Shi'Ar. Then Editor-in-chief Jim Shooter forced them to change the story so that she died.

So the fact that John Bryne resurrected a character that he and Claremont didn't intend to kill in the first place made it somewhat more understandable.


Chris Claremont, years later, agreed that Jim Shooter was correct. Jean Grey, Phoenix, resonated better in the Marvel Universe dead as a tragic figure corrupted by her absolute powers of her mind. Claremont peitioned Shooter not to resurrect Jean Grey for X-Factor, but he lost the disagreement.

Claremont had even planned for the X-Factor creators to use Tessa in Jean Grey's place. Another possible idea came to use Dazzler from someone else.

Chris Claremont fully intended for Rachel Summers to be the one & only Phoenix when he created her & eventually bring her to the mainstream Marvel Universe.

Over time, Jean Grey's resurrection presented more problems in the coming years than creating more original stories.

[agrich]

[QUOTE=agrich]


Chris Claremont, years later, agreed that Jim Shooter was correct. Jean Grey, Phoenix, resonated better in the Marvel Universe dead as a tragic figure corrupted by her absolute powers of her mind. Claremont peitioned Shooter not to resurrect Jean Grey for X-Factor, but he lost the disagreement.


I knew most of that, but it doesn't change the fact that - whether Jean dying was a BETTER story than simply being depowered, which I agree it was - it was not the story the creators intended. Everything they wrote which had her turning into Dark Phoenix wasn't supposed to end with her dying, and at the time they fought Shooter on it pretty aggressively.

[Chris Lang]

I vote Green Goblin. I thought it was stupid to bring him back after almost 20 years later and then have him kidnap Spiderman's kid(which has been erased from Marvel continuity) and then getting Gwen Stacy pregnant. Ridiculous!

Of course you're talking about the original Green Goblin, Norman Osborn. He's on my list of characters who shouldn't have been brought back, too. I even wrote a satirical piece about it called 'The Future of Norman Osborn' (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=107420). If you think he shouldn't have been brought back, and think the explanation for his return (a previously unmentioned goblin formula healing factor that started healing him even when the jet glider was still embedded in his chest) stretched your ability to suspend disbelief nearly to the breaking point, read this thread.

Another character in the Spider-books who should have stayed dead is Aunt May. I've gone on and on in other threads about Aunt May, but the short version is: Amazing Spider-Man #400 gave us a moving farewell to a longtime character. The Spider-book 'relaunch' of late 1998 brought her back with an explanation which stretches my ability to suspend disbelief PAST the point of breaking. I won't even go into it here unless you ask, but really Aunt May should have stayed dead after her emotional death scene in Amazing Spider-Man #400.

Other characters who should have stayed dead the first time are Bucky and Jean Grey.

Chris Lang

[Arrjay]

Jean Grey should've stayed dead.

Green Goblin. Freakin' ridiculous. He should definitely be a corpse.

And maybe Bucky too. Though the Winter Soldier thing is kinda interesting.

[Dark Soul # 7]

I´m going to have to say aunt May. Her death was beutifull and then it was all retconned like crap. The Chameleon also had a beutifull death scene but then he was brought back without even an explination or any signed of the character development that he got before his death.

And I´m just gonna say this now. I don´t think it was a misstake to bring Norman. His restruction did not piss all over his death or any other part of the original story. He´s secured his place as Spidey´s numero uno bad guy and there´s been quite a few great stories with him since his restruction, A death in the family and MK:SM#1-12. Of course this is just my opinion and you may now tear me a new one if you want to.Second. In fact, I choose to believe he did stay dead, and any issues in recent years featuring him since he was skewered on his own goblin glider back in Spider-man 122 simply didn't happen.

Some will call this denial, but I choose to call it respecting the original story and creators over the idiots who decided to bring him back.But it´s still denial.

[agrich]

But it´s still denial.

I understand, but I can live with that.

There are great comic stories and there are lousy comic stories. You bet I'll deny the existence of lousy ones if one of their consequences is to damage a far superior original story.

[thik_3rd]

jean definitely shoulda came back.
a year ago i woulda agreed bucky should'nt have come back, but we'd be missing out on a great story if he didn't.

[Cephus]

Absolutely, positively all of them. Dead should be dead, period. There is absolutely no reason to bring back any character that has been killed.

[Capt USA]

I don't mind the bucky resurrection, He never died on screen, his death was a retcon to begin with, and he didn't have the motivating factor that bens death did for spider man. Also now Nomad is dead, at the hands of Bucky/Winter Soldier, so the same angst that Cap had due to Buckys death can be transferred over to Nomad.

the green goblins death was a good death, his replacements were also occasionally good(hobgoblin for the first couple of years was at least equal to the green goblin in quality stories) Green Goblin didn't need to come back, at least norm as green goblin wasn't necessary.

Jean Grey is almost believeable come back, but it would have been nice for her to stay dead, her death is about the only thing that made cyclops interesting(well not interesting, since that would require a miracle of monumentous proportions, but he was no longer completely and utterly boring-for a while)

[DDM]

Jean Grey is almost believeable come back, but it would have been nice for her to stay dead, her death is about the only thing that made cyclops interesting(well not interesting, since that would require a miracle of monumentous proportions, but he was no longer completely and utterly boring-for a while)

When Scott ran out on Madelyne Pryor to reunite with his resurrected girlfriend, it made Scott to be nothing more than scum of the Earth. He was openly cheating on his wife & Scott did not care. Likewise, Scott abandoned his baby when he abandoned his wife. This is another reason Jean's resurrection cheaponed Scott's character: Jean Grey served merely to be "Scott's girlfriend" rather than her own person.

Jean's original death as Dark Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #137 still resonates with most people, but her constant death & resurrection cycles has basically turned the idea of Phoenix into parody.

[Smarty Jones]

"I knew most of that, but it doesn't change the fact that - whether Jean dying was a BETTER story than simply being depowered, which I agree it was - it was not the story the creators intended. Everything they wrote which had her turning into Dark Phoenix wasn't supposed to end with her dying, and at the time they fought Shooter on it pretty aggressively."

Nor does it change what story was published -- at the end of "Uncanny X-Men 137," Jean Grey died. The story of a person corrupted by absolute power and made the ultimate sacrifice resonated a lot better than what was proposed -- which is why "The Dark Phoenix Saga" was such a landmark storyline.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I still believe to this day that Jean has story potential, if they would stop with the "I'm Dark Phoenix, I love Scott and Logan (a little), the Phoenix is a part of me, and now I die" crap. This is why I think she should get her own series, or at least be involved with the Annihilation event (being a cosmic entity and all).

Also, Bucky is showing up in Wolverine, and after what happened in Captain America, he has plenty of story potential left.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

And yes, I do blame the writers for all these deaths and resurrections that have ruined Jean's character. If they had done some more original concepts instead of always going back to the Dark Phoenix idea, Jean would be much more popular.

Which is one reason why I enjoy the 90s. Jean's character was shown more than of the power of the Phoenix.

[dingo]

I can understand why people get annoyed at most comic book characters coming back from the dead but not Phoenix. The clue is in the name people. PHOENIX. They are meant to come back from the dead.

[Anodyne]

I can understand why people get annoyed at most comic book characters coming back from the dead but not Phoenix. The clue is in the name people. PHOENIX. They are meant to come back from the dead.
Nobody (AFAIK) expects Kurt ("Nightcrawler") Wagner literally to be a nocturnal worm, or Warren Worthington III literally to be a Heavenly messenger, which is what "Angel" means. If Jean Grey hadn't been brought back for X-Factor, "Phoenix" would simply have been Jean Grey's codename. But what really infuriates :mad: me is how they trashed Maddie to justify Scott's shabby behavior. Inferno blatantly vilified the wronged person to vindicate the wrongdoer.

[DDM]

I can understand why people get annoyed at most comic book characters coming back from the dead but not Phoenix. The clue is in the name people. PHOENIX. They are meant to come back from the dead.

Jean Grey called herself Phoenix because she died then resurrected herself with vast new omnipotent powers. When she died in Uncanny X-Men #137, Jean Grey, Phoenix, never returned from the dead again.

[Michael P]

I can understand why people get annoyed at most comic book characters coming back from the dead but not Phoenix. The clue is in the name people. PHOENIX. They are meant to come back from the dead.
Could it be because the stories themselves have been ridiculous and poorly handled?

[fireball87o]

norman osbourne -- his return 20 some years later cheaped his character, legacy, Gwen Stacy's death, Spidey's torment, and Spidey stories for that time. It was a rather pointless comeback too, since baby May hasn't been mentioned since and the thing's pretty much forgotten about (altough may be in a few years someone will right a story and launch the Spider-Girl series in 616, who knows?). Either way he shouldn't have returned, and if a writer's sole use in his return was to kidnap the baby, another Spidey villian would have worked just as well.

i know there was another character i was thinking that no one else had mentioned, but i can't think of it right now...stoopid osbourne blocking my memory! :evilangry

[dingo]

Jean Grey called herself Phoenix because she died then resurrected herself with vast new omnipotent powers. When she died in Uncanny X-Men #137, Jean Grey, Phoenix, never returned from the dead again.


Yeah but each subsequent one....

[Capt USA]

norman osbourne -- his return 20 some years later cheaped his character, legacy, Gwen Stacy's death, Spidey's torment, and Spidey stories for that time. It was a rather pointless comeback too, since baby May hasn't been mentioned since and the thing's pretty much forgotten about (altough may be in a few years someone will right a story and launch the Spider-Girl series in 616, who knows?). Either way he shouldn't have returned, and if a writer's sole use in his return was to kidnap the baby, another Spidey villian would have worked just as well.

i know there was another character i was thinking that no one else had mentioned, but i can't think of it right now...stoopid osbourne blocking my memory! :evilangry


and osbornes death didn't leave that big of a void in the spidey universe, I mean the hobgoblin, demogoblin, multiple different green goblins all showed up and about half of them were actually good. Marvel decided that Spidey needed a kingpin level bad guy that knows who spidey is (like venom) that was unreedeamable(sp) to add an extra element to the mix.


These are comics, and I have no problems with them bringing back a character, when the bring back is done right. (and it doesn't change the characters motivation--so ben has to stay dead) But as mentioned, jean grey has rarely been done right (the entire madeline storyline sucked)

I wish I would have read the Colossus return (great death, great character that I really wish would have had a larger fan following and I'm glad he is back, but I get the feeling his return was probably done poorly--but to be honest I don't know haven't read it yet)

Bucky's return is ok, because they killed Nomad in bringing him back, which leaves caps motivation in tact. And it was such a well done storyline that it's acceptable.

[fireball87o]

It was Unus the Untouchable!

Okay, he wasn't technically dead, but with his powers gone haywire and him being unable to breathe, eat, or touch anything or anyone, and then blacking out and left for dead in 1983... he was assumed dead. Add to the fact that he hasn't been seen/used in the comics since it was safe to say he's dead.

But no, you can't write the obscure Unus (BTW a new name is in order) off just yet thanks to Morrison's 2002's New X-Men 32 in which he (un)dramatically returns as the X-Men find him in fetus position crying on the ground in Genosha. L-A-M-E. Oh, did I forget to mention Unus hasn't been seen since that issue, fading into Limbo once again. What kind of return is THAT? It served no purpose.

Also, consider Stryfe, Cable's clone, he had a good run with X-Cutioner's Song, so why did he return? For someone so powerful/evil he's barely been used since, and shoulda been left for dead.

I don't mind the character coming back if it's a good return, good plotline, w/e, but why even bother having a character come back if they're not gonna used :confused:

[agrich]

and osbornes death didn't leave that big of a void in the spidey universe, I mean the hobgoblin, demogoblin, multiple different green goblins all showed up and about half of them were actually good. Marvel decided that Spidey needed a kingpin level bad guy that knows who spidey is (like venom) that was unreedeamable(sp) to add an extra element to the mix.


I always assumed Marvel brought back Osborn because they wanted to distract attention from the debacle of the clone storyline. Hey, here's how we'll make angry fans forgive us - we'll resurrect Spider-man's greatest villain.

[Capt USA]

I always assumed Marvel brought back Osborn because they wanted to distract attention from the debacle of the clone storyline. Hey, here's how we'll make angry fans forgive us - we'll resurrect Spider-man's greatest villain.

there were elements from the clone story that I liked, unfortunately the bad elements outnumbered it about a dozen to one. (not just the clone story but that timeline of stories is what I mean...mind you I haven't read spidey in a long time--coincendently about the clone storyline is when I stopped, so I don't remember any of the stuff I did like, there were a couple of villains that I thought had potential)

[Sandy Hausler]

It was Unus the Untouchable!

Okay, he wasn't technically dead, but with his powers gone haywire and him being unable to breathe, eat, or touch anything or anyone, and then blacking out and left for dead in 1983... he was assumed dead. Add to the fact that he hasn't been seen/used in the comics since it was safe to say he's dead.

But no, you can't write the obscure Unus (BTW a new name is in order) off just yet thanks to Morrison's 2002's New X-Men 32 in which he (un)dramatically returns as the X-Men find him in fetus position crying on the ground in Genosha. L-A-M-E. Oh, did I forget to mention Unus hasn't been seen since that issue, fading into Limbo once again. What kind of return is THAT? It served no purpose.

Also, consider Stryfe, Cable's clone, he had a good run with X-Cutioner's Song, so why did he return? For someone so powerful/evil he's barely been used since, and shoulda been left for dead.

I don't mind the character coming back if it's a good return, good plotline, w/e, but why even bother having a character come back if they're not gonna used :confused:

Unus was a regular in the god-awful pre-House of M Excaliber, so he's alive. It's not clear whether he's lost his powers.

Sandy Hausler

[MythicBrawn]

Every single one of them. Maybe, Marvel would be better about choosing who dies. And, Norman Osborn definitely should have stayed dead. Bringing him back was patently ridiculous.

[Cephus]

Every single one of them. Maybe, Marvel would be better about choosing who dies. And, Norman Osborn definitely should have stayed dead. Bringing him back was patently ridiculous.

If writers knew that every character they killed could not be brought back by any means ever, then maybe they'd be a little more hesitant to pull the "In this issue, an Avenger dies!" crap. Most deaths are cheap, meaningless sales devices. There's no reason most of them die, it's just to sell comics.

Whatever happened to just telling a good story? It seems to be beyond most writers at Marvel.

[Chris Lang]

I always assumed Marvel brought back Osborn because they wanted to distract attention from the debacle of the clone storyline. Hey, here's how we'll make angry fans forgive us - we'll resurrect Spider-man's greatest villain.

Actually, Norman Osborn was brought back because the Spider-writers and editors had written themselves into a corner with the Clone Saga. They needed someone to be the master villain behind the whole Clone Saga, and Bob Harras picked Norman Osborn because he felt only Norman Osborn had the resources to pull it off.

If you don't believe me, try reading the Life of Reilly columns by Andrew Goletz and Glenn Greenberg (http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/specials/LifeOfReilly/1.html). Glenn Greenberg was an assistant editor at the time of the Clone Saga, and he gives the inside story as to just what was going on in the offices at the time of the Spider-books. After you've read all 35 columns, you'll probably understand just how the Spider-books became so screwed up in the 1990's (and unfortunately, they have yet to recover).

If you'd like to skip ahead to the Norman Osborn part, I'll just quote the first reference to the decision to bring him back, and then link to the columns after that:

[ GLENN'S COMMENTS : It was around the time that these stories were produced that Bob Harras told us who should be revealed as the master villain responsible for the entire clone saga. The reaction was not enthusiastic. I don't think ANYONE - from the writers to the editors to the assistant editors - agreed with Harras's idea, although his rationale certainly made sense to a certain extent. Harras felt that there was only one person who could have had the money, the resources, the connections, the knowledge, and the motivation to orchestrate the clone saga and disrupt Peter Parker's life to such a profound extent. Harras felt that the mastermind had to be Norman Osborn.

I was one of the most vocal opponents to this idea. "But Norman's dead!" I argued. "I mean, there was a body! We saw his funeral! There was no doubt left in anyone's mind that he died. Beyond that, he died in one of the most powerful Spider-Man stories of all time. It was a key event in Spider-Man's entire history! We would be totally betraying the trust of the fans if we went in and undid that story!" I remember someone muttering, "Who are we gonna bring back next? Gwen? Or how about Uncle Ben?" But Harras felt that no other option would work, and he made it absolutely clear that he would not be bound to a story that had been published almost 25 years earlier. Harras felt that for the here and now, Norman was the only solution, continuity and history be damned.

Glenn Greenberg discusses Norman Osborn's return, among many other things, in the columns that followed, starting with column 28. (http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/specials/LifeOfReilly/28.html)

The Life of Reilly (http://http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/specials/LifeOfReilly/1.html) is recommended reading for everyone who wanted to know just what the fuss is about the Clone Saga, and where the Spider-books went wrong.

Chris Lang

[Nefarius]

Aunt May.Green Goblin's return was not a bad move at all but they ruined him using this character for all the major plots in spider-verse.But the return of Aunt May,a character that it was with one foot on grave from the beginning of spider-man,was a bad move.Also,the ridiculus return ruined a great story(her death at ASM 400 was classic)

[agrich]

Chris - thanks for the info.

That was actually more or less my point. Even though the motivation was a little off - if not to distract people from the Clone Saga, merely a really lousy exit strategy - it's a still a thing that arose because one single guy, apparently, thought it would help resolve a bad situation. When in fact all it did was make it worse. Interesting to read just how it was basically one guy who wanted to do it, but of course he had the power at the time.

You don't need to read 35 columns, all you need to read is one line that you quoted below: "[Harras] made it absolutely clear that he would not be bound to a story that had been published almost 25 years earlier." I guess with that kind of philosophy, we should consider ourselves fortunate that Uncle Ben didn't return.

[stillanerd]

The Green Goblin--he's a great villain and I can understand that he had to be brought back in order to resolve the whole clone saga mess, but look what's happened to him since then. He's become nothing more than a Lex Luthor wannabe who plots and schemes in the shadows, which is completely against his character. Plus his return allowed for the completely awful and misguided Sins Past storyline it which we learn Gwen had consentual sex with him and fathered his children :evilangry. The only good Green Goblin stories we've gotten since he's come back has been Paul Jenkis' "Death in the Family" and Mark Millar's 12 parter in Marvel Knights Spider-Man. Other than that, he was better off dead.

[Frank]

If writers knew that every character they killed could not be brought back by any means ever, then maybe they'd be a little more hesitant to pull the "In this issue, an Avenger dies!" crap. Most deaths are cheap, meaningless sales devices. There's no reason most of them die, it's just to sell comics.

Whatever happened to just telling a good story? It seems to be beyond most writers at Marvel.

Dude, the writers are great; it`s the editors that sucks. It used to be that editors had a sort of authority and dedication to honor these concepts. Look even Brubaker makes the resurection somewhat good(but the fact remains that he should never bee allowed to come back). It`s just that Editors should learn to say "NO!!!" more often. Because most of the time when they believe about their abilitities, writers think they can write anything and make it work. They like the challenge. So they don`t have any limits. Any brain-dead concepts they think they can do, so once in a while they come up with stupid ideas. It`s a matter of editors to set guidelines and put these guys on the right track.

[Cephus]

Dude, the writers are great; it`s the editors that sucks. It used to be that editors had a sort of authority and dedication to honor these concepts. Look even Brubaker makes the resurection somewhat good(but the fact remains that he should never bee allowed to come back). It`s just that Editors should learn to say "NO!!!" more often. Because most of the time when they believe about their abilitities, writers think they can write anything and make it work. They like the challenge. So they don`t have any limits. Any brain-dead concepts they think they can do, so once in a while they come up with stupid ideas. It`s a matter of editors to set guidelines and put these guys on the right track.

There was also a point in time where the writers actually knew the history of the characters they were writing. Today, most of them don't know a damn thing and that's a major problem.

You're right, the editors need to grow some cajones and dare to tell the writers that they can't do things, but it's *ALL* of Marvel that needs a major revamp in the way they think regarding death. Whatever happened to "dead is dead"? How long did that last, 10 minutes?