4 more churches burned in Alabama

[warspite1805]

www.cbc.ca/cp/world/060207/w020780.html

16:32:41 EST Feb 7, 2006

BOLIGEE, Ala. (AP) - Fires damaged or destroyed four more Baptist churches across the Alabama countryside Tuesday, less than a week after a string of five blazes that were ruled arson.

Church member Johnny Archibald said smoke was pouring from Morning Star Baptist when he arrived around daybreak at the church in Boligee. "They had kicked the door in," he said. "Evidently they had set the pulpit on fire and went out the front door."

Tuesday's fires took place at churches off rural roads, about 15 to 30 kilometres apart. They were in a cluster of three counties, about 100 kilometres from the Bibb County area where the five other churches were burned early Friday.

Ragan Ingram, a spokesman for the state insurance agency that oversees fire investigations, said it was too soon to say if there was any link between the two sets of fires. "Obviously we're going to investigate these as suspected arsons," he said.

He said investigators were pursuing several leads in last week's fires, but "the leads haven't led us to a specific suspect or a motive."

Morning Star Baptist was burned down to its foundation Tuesday, leaving only the front steps and handrail still standing. Another church was destroyed, and the other two were damaged. In the Bibb County fires, three churches were destroyed and two damaged.

Ingram said there have been 59 church fires in Alabama in the past five years, including the nine reported in the past four days, and 19 were ruled arsons.

The FBI said it is looking into whether the Bibb County fires were civil rights violations under laws covering attacks on religious property. State and federal rewards totalling $10,000 US have been offered.

The nine churches that burned included both white and black congregations.

Archibald said the side door of Morning Star Baptist had a footprint on it, and he and another man used an axe to remove the door for potential use as evidence. At least two of the Bibb County churches also had kicked-in doors, church members said.
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Will be interesting to see who is carrying out such hate filled attacks.

[west3man]

I heard a passing mention of this on the radio, this morning, I think. I couldn't tell if it was NEW news or what... then it was gone.

*sigh* Now I know.

[Lubichev]

I hear they are looking for two honkeys in an SUV. And that there may be more honkeys to look for.

[Aelo]

I wonder what the motive is? What could someone possibly gain by burning down some churches?

[Michael P]

I wonder what the motive is? What could someone possibly gain by burning down some churches?
You assume the arsonists are acting out of reason.

[west3man]

I wonder what the motive is? What could someone possibly gain by burning down some churches?
Why do you play video games or read comics or uppercut six-year-olds?

For fun.

[CaptMagellan]

The cops should read this book
"The Lords of Chaos"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0922915946/sr=1-1/qid=1139433768/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-3213099-7784613?%5Fencoding=UTF8

One of the major points the book covers is the Church burnings in Norway in the early nineties, the continental church burnings of the mid-late nineties and speculates on the possibility of such events happening outside of Europe.

Maybe completely unrelated phenomena. Maybe a meme has taken root in the Bible belt.

[Aelo]

You assume the arsonists are acting out of reason.

Good point. I am making an assumption. Do you think that they're just randomly burning churches, with no thought or motive behind their actions?

[Donald M.]

Good point. I am making an assumption. Do you think that they're just randomly burning churches, with no thought or motive behind their actions?

White men burning down Baptist churches . . .

You really telling me you can't figure out the motive?

Edit: Nevermind, I read the full story and apparently the burned churches included white congregations, though it's possible the arsonists didn't know that.

That said, some people just like to burn shit.

[Lubichev]

But white Baptist Churches are being torched too.


Maybe they just hate Baptists.....

[Charles RB]

It's simple. They're agents of Alabama's Methodist Churches, out to remove the competition.

[warspite1805]

White men burning down Baptist churches . . .

You really telling me you can't figure out the motive?

Edit: Nevermind, I read the full story and apparently the burned churches included white congregations, though it's possible the arsonists didn't know that.

That said, some people just like to burn shit.


Perhaps it is racist bigots burning the churches but chose to burn a few white churches to try and throw people of the scent a bit.

[Aelo]

But white Baptist Churches are being torched too.


Maybe they just hate Baptists.....

This is the reason I'm a bit confused. If it was just black-churches getting burned down, then it'd make sense to think that the motive was racism. But Black and White churches are getting burned... I think it may run deeper than racism in this case.

[Aelo]

Perhaps it is racist bigots burning the churches but chose to burn a few white churches to try and throw people of the scent a bit.

I didn't think of that. It's possible, but I think there may be other possibilities too...

[Hiromi]

I wonder what the motive is? What could someone possibly gain by burning down some churches?

Churches tend to be a fairly big target for vandalism or arson, my own church was vandalized pretty heavily not to long ago.

[Hiromi]

It's simple. They're agents of Alabama's Methodist Churches, out to remove the competition.

They can burn as many of our churches as they want, we SHALL NOT give in on dancing!

[MacQuarrie]

There was a spate of church-burnings about 10 years ago. At the time, much of the press focused on the fact that black churches were burned... even though more white churches were burned during that same period.

Of course, the majority of people accept that racism is wrong, so the outrage over the black churches burning makes sense. Since white church-goers are all oppressive clinic-bombing gaybashers who want to turn the clock back a few centuries and stone adulterous women, well, burning down their churches is just to be expected and pretty much what they deserved. Or so the lack of media attention at the time would suggest.

Of course, I could just be very cynical, but that's what it looks like to me.

Notice that people here jumped immediately to the conclusions that (a) only black churches were burned and (b) it was white men that did it. This suggests to me the twin perceptions that (a) only black people can be sincerely religious (religious white people are de facto hypocrites and phonies) and (b) anti-religious bigotry does not exist, so the fires must have been racially motivated.

As Arsenio used to say, things that make you go "hmmm."

[MacQuarrie]

I wonder what the motive is? What could someone possibly gain by burning down some churches?
What could possibly be gained by executing Christians (as is done in many countries)?

Did it never occur to you that some people just hate Christians?

[BlairH]

Did it never occur to you that some people just hate Christians?
I think the arsonist is Gene Hackman's character in "Runaway Jury". Heck! He was quoted as saying:

"I hate Bapists almost as much as I hate Democrats!"

The proof is there! He probably used some kind of death ray he devised in his tenure as Lex Luthor from the Superman movies to burn down the Church.

[Aelo]

What could possibly be gained by executing Christians (as is done in many countries)?

Did it never occur to you that some people just hate Christians?

Yeah, I get the point. People just do stuff outta hatred. Perhaps I was searching for a deeper meaning, that isn't actually there.

[bfrank]

There was a spate of church-burnings about 10 years ago. At the time, much of the press focused on the fact that black churches were burned... even though more white churches were burned during that same period.

Of course, the majority of people accept that racism is wrong, so the outrage over the black churches burning makes sense. Since white church-goers are all oppressive clinic-bombing gaybashers who want to turn the clock back a few centuries and stone adulterous women, well, burning down their churches is just to be expected and pretty much what they deserved. Or so the lack of media attention at the time would suggest.

Of course, I could just be very cynical, but that's what it looks like to me.

Notice that people here jumped immediately to the conclusions that (a) only black churches were burned and (b) it was white men that did it. This suggests to me the twin perceptions that (a) only black people can be sincerely religious (religious white people are de facto hypocrites and phonies) and (b) anti-religious bigotry does not exist, so the fires must have been racially motivated.

As Arsenio used to say, things that make you go "hmmm."

It looks to me that people see the location, and the donomination, and reach these conclusions...

[Aelo]

Apart from aprehending the culprits, does anyone think there is a way to reduce, or perhaps stop this from occuring in the future?

[BlairH]

Apart from aprehending the culprits, does anyone think there is a way to reduce, or perhaps stop this from occuring in the future?

Automatic sentry perimiter defense guns.

[Aelo]

Automatic sentry perimiter defense guns.

Seriously? I'm not sure if that's legal...

[MacQuarrie]

Yeah, I get the point. People just do stuff outta hatred. Perhaps I was searching for a deeper meaning, that isn't actually there.
Or it could be idiots with time on their hands and no social conscience.

"Hyuck! That burned good! Let's burn somethin' else now!"

[Nick Soapdish]

Notice that people here jumped immediately to the conclusions that (a) only black churches were burned and (b) it was white men that did it. This suggests to me the twin perceptions that (a) only black people can be sincerely religious (religious white people are de facto hypocrites and phonies) and (b) anti-religious bigotry does not exist, so the fires must have been racially motivated.

As Arsenio used to say, things that make you go "hmmm."

I must admit that the first thing that I was wondering is if all the churches were black and if it was racially motivated. In my defense, there is a history of that down here.

But the second question I had was if it was anti-religious in nature.

Either way, I don't understand how you got your first perception. Even if white churches weren't burned down, it doesn't follow that they were somehow complicit or that their congregations are any less religious or that anyone would believe that.

I believe that there are a number of white Christian hypocrites and I'm sure that I'm not alone in that belief. But I don't think it's restricted to just whites or Christians.

IMO, the reason that people tend to think that there are more hypocritical white Christians is that there probably are more and that there are a number of prominent white men that are proclaiming their faith at every opportunity while not necessarily upholding it in actions. But the first half of my statement is about raw numbers. There are more whites than any other race and there are more Christians than any other faith, both by wide margins. Even if you assume hypocrites are less likely to be Christian, they're likely to have a raw numbers advantage.

[BlairH]

Seriously? I'm not sure if that's legal...
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

[Hiromi]

Automatic sentry perimiter defense guns.

Yeah, now THATs displaying the Christian spirit.

[BlairH]

Yeah, now THATs displaying the Christian spirit.
See my signature.

[jade_nova]

Notice that people here jumped immediately to the conclusions that (a) only black churches were burned and (b) it was white men that did it. This suggests to me the twin perceptions that (a) only black people can be sincerely religious (religious white people are de facto hypocrites and phonies) and (b) anti-religious bigotry does not exist, so the fires must have been racially motivated.

Here's another conclusion (c) only white people can burn down churches? You notice how no one thinks that the burning of a white church could be racially motivated. Can white people be discriminated against also?

[MacQuarrie]

I must admit that the first thing that I was wondering is if all the churches were black and if it was racially motivated. In my defense, there is a history of that down here.

But the second question I had was if it was anti-religious in nature.

Either way, I don't understand how you got your first perception. Even if white churches weren't burned down, it doesn't follow that they were somehow complicit or that their congregations are any less religious or that anyone would believe that.

I believe that there are a number of white Christian hypocrites and I'm sure that I'm not alone in that belief. But I don't think it's restricted to just whites or Christians.

IMO, the reason that people tend to think that there are more hypocritical white Christians is that there probably are more and that there are a number of prominent white men that are proclaiming their faith at every opportunity while not necessarily upholding it in actions. But the first half of my statement is about raw numbers. There are more whites than any other race and there are more Christians than any other faith, both by wide margins. Even if you assume hypocrites are less likely to be Christian, they're likely to have a raw numbers advantage.
Honestly, I'm just cranky.

[Hiromi]

See my signature.

Honestly Blair I'm usually as pro 2nd amendment as you are, but in this case we're talking about a building that can be rebuilt or repaired, insurance is there for a reason. Its better to minister to the people doing it, one of our converts in the early 90s was a kid who up till then had been one of the ones vandalizing, heck he came to youth fellowships with his parole officer.

[Grazzt]

When the first post said "white and black churches" I assumed that that was because the churches parishes were interracial and someone took offense at that. But I suppose the commonly held interpretation on the boards is correct.

[Night]

IMO, the reason that people tend to think that there are more hypocritical white Christians is that there probably are more and that there are a number of prominent white men that are proclaiming their faith at every opportunity while not necessarily upholding it in actions. But the first half of my statement is about raw numbers. There are more whites than any other race and there are more Christians than any other faith, both by wide margins. Even if you assume hypocrites are less likely to be Christian, they're likely to have a raw numbers advantage. Ok, if a statement like this had been made about black people, whether true or not, whether backed up but hard numbers or not, would have been followed by profanity and shear character deformation of the poster. We would not be near the 35th post, we would be on the 350th post. (Not that profanity or insults needed or wanted here). And I do applaud Donald M. for at least making a retraction to statement.

[Rachel Grey]

Honestly Blair I'm usually as pro 2nd amendment as you are, but in this case we're talking about a building that can be rebuilt or repaired, insurance is there for a reason. Its better to minister to the people doing it, one of our converts in the early 90s was a kid who up till then had been one of the ones vandalizing, heck he came to youth fellowships with his parole officer.

Eh, Blair's just a Liefeld creation, he cant help it.

In a few years someone else will take over the writing chores and Blair will be a new man :)

[Pól Rua]

Or it could be idiots with time on their hands and no social conscience.

"Hyuck! That burned good! Let's burn somethin' else now!"

Or compewting bands of racist idiots "We'll learn them Black/white bastardfs for burning OUR house of worship to the same Prince of Peace as what they worship."

[Nate C.]

It's either a thrill kill- True Arson, or for political/social/biggoted reasons, or for money.

Or it's copycats.

Or rage or jealousy or, well you get the idea.

[Forefinger]

White men burning down Baptist churches . . .

You really telling me you can't figure out the motive?

Edit: Nevermind, I read the full story and apparently the burned churches included white congregations, though it's possible the arsonists didn't know that.

That said, some people just like to burn shit.
I really appreciate how people just jump to conclusions that everything in the South has to be racially motivated.

I hope that they catch these guys, put their names and pictures in newspapers and television....and let them go..... I'm sure that someone will sort these two guys out. You just don't burn chuches.

[Forefinger]

It looks to me that people see the location, and the donomination, and reach these conclusions...
That doesn't make any sense.

Racisim is everywhere, and committed by all races. If someone just has this perception that only white people are racist, they are wrong.

These weren't all churches that had mostly black congregations.

[Forefinger]

There was a spate of church-burnings about 10 years ago. At the time, much of the press focused on the fact that black churches were burned... even though more white churches were burned during that same period.

Of course, the majority of people accept that racism is wrong, so the outrage over the black churches burning makes sense. Since white church-goers are all oppressive clinic-bombing gaybashers who want to turn the clock back a few centuries and stone adulterous women, well, burning down their churches is just to be expected and pretty much what they deserved. Or so the lack of media attention at the time would suggest.

Of course, I could just be very cynical, but that's what it looks like to me.

Notice that people here jumped immediately to the conclusions that (a) only black churches were burned and (b) it was white men that did it. This suggests to me the twin perceptions that (a) only black people can be sincerely religious (religious white people are de facto hypocrites and phonies) and (b) anti-religious bigotry does not exist, so the fires must have been racially motivated.

As Arsenio used to say, things that make you go "hmmm."
Hmmmm indeed.

Thanks for interjecting some common sense into this thread.

[Nick Soapdish]

Ok, if a statement like this had been made about black people, whether true or not, whether backed up but hard numbers or not, would have been followed by profanity and sheer character defamation of the poster. We would not be near the 35th post, we would be on the 350th post. (Not that profanity or insults needed or wanted here). And I do applaud Donald M. for at least making a retraction to statement.

If you're trying to make the point that minorities tend to be more exempt of criticism and stereotypes, you may have chosen a poor example because my argument is simply because there are more of the majority. It's difficult to flip that argument.

Or maybe not ...

IMO, the reason that people tend to think that there are fewer truly devout black Christians is that there probably are fewer. Unfortunately, a Christian quietly practicing his or her beliefs isn't really news so we have a dearth of examples in the media, but more of the examples that do get picked up by the media are whites. But my statement is really about raw numbers. There are fewer blacks than whites by a wide margin.

I couldn't preserve the exact wording for obvious reasons, but I tried to keep the same tone.

You really think CBR'ers would get ballistic about that?

[west3man]

I couldn't preserve the exact wording for obvious reasons, but I tried to keep the same tone.

You really think CBR'ers would get ballistic about that?
No, I don't.

[bfrank]

That doesn't make any sense.
of course it does, if you know the history of the area....

Racisim is everywhere, and committed by all races. If someone just has this perception that only white people are racist, they are wrong.
yes, and i never said other wise.....


These weren't all churches that had mostly black congregations.
yes, and I never said other wise.....

[Cotton]

Maybe it was a bunch of stupid kids who accidently found their way into their parents' flame thrower cabinet? Just a thought...

[Iangould]

When the first post said "white and black churches" I assumed that that was because the churches parishes were interracial and someone took offense at that. But I suppose the commonly held interpretation on the boards is correct.

I'm surprised that most churches in the area can be classified as "black" or "white".

For all we know, the "white" churches in question were targetted by white racists for admitting blacks.

[Crimson Avenger]

As it turns out, the church burnings were not racially motivated at all. Just three stupid kids with nothing better to do.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/08/national/main1381604.shtml

[Solaris]

TBH, I wondered too, at first, if there was a racial link, until I read the part that both white and black churches had been burned... again, because of the history of the south. I also agree that the point of "black churches and white churches" raises an interesting angle in general on the state of integration... but to the main point:

I was also afraid it might simply be teens pulling a prank... much in the same fashion as I've previously seen, of teens defacing cemetaries for no damned good reason, other than "it was there, and I wanted to do something outlandish." IMO, what's behind it is a deep desire to give the finger to authority... and something like a church or a graveyard is a convenient target with no people around except on certain days.

Dumb jerkwads.

There's much BETTER ways to express your anger with or rebellion against authority than something like this... especially since

1. How could they be *SURE* no one was in the building?

2. Arson carries a very hefty penalty

3. Trashing someone's place of worship, and/or the place they've buried their loved ones, is completely despicable, no matter what the religion.

I gotta admit, I was also concerned that it was some left-wing nutcase (like the right-wing nutcase that bombed gay nightclubs and abortion clinics here in Atlanta), who decided to "make the opposition pay for their crimes."

No matter their motivation, these guys did something very wrong, and something that had the potential to take lives and/or harm someone else, as well as destroying people's (the congregations') property... so I hope they throw the book at them.

[west3man]

I heard it was some kind of prank or whatever, but NPR also said that the youths burned down some Alabama churches to throw the cops off of their scent.

So, it depends on what kind of "prank" it was AND if the churches they burned BEFORE (they tried to throw the cops off) were Black churches.

[cable guy]

They said it was a joke.

Needless to say, the cops are "concerned about them as people".

I not sure I buy this.

[Crimson Avenger]

I heard it was some kind of prank or whatever, but NPR also said that the youths burned down some Alabama churches to throw the cops off of their scent.

So, it depends on what kind of "prank" it was AND if the churches they burned BEFORE (they tried to throw the cops off) were Black churches.

What I recall reading was that four of the first five churches they burned were white. The suspect who confessed lives about 5-10 minutes away from me and attended college near downtown Birmingham. None of these churches were in an area where he would have known the racial makeup. That aspect doesn't seem to have entered their minds.

According to this article, (http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/news/114189984137050.xml&coll=2) two of the three suspects were theater majors, while the other was a pre-med major at UAB. This case defies all of the historical stereotypes of this type of crime.

[west3man]

What I recall reading was that four of the first five churches they burned were white. The suspect who confessed lives about 5-10 minutes away from me and attended college near downtown Birmingham. None of these churches were in an area where he would have known the racial makeup. That aspect doesn't seem to have entered their minds. Supposedly they burned 4 more churches as a diversion.

I don't see how we can be sure they DIDN'T know the racial make-up of the one church that WASN'T burned as a diversion.

According to this article, (http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/news/114189984137050.xml&coll=2) two of the three suspects were theater majors, while the other was a pre-med major at UAB. This case defies all of the historical stereotypes of this type of crime.With respect, what does their education have to do with anything? I know some folks think education is a cure for racism, but there are and always have been plenty of well-educated, but racist folks in this country.

[Forefinger]

Well, I'm just glad that they put their names and faces on TV. If they are out on bail, they are sure to face some vigilante justice from someone. We Southerners are serious about churches.

[Crimson Avenger]

Supposedly they burned 4 more churches as a diversion.

I don't see how we can be sure they DIDN'T know the racial make-up of the one church that WASN'T burned as a diversion.

There's not any evidence currently to suggest that they knew anything about the churches they burned. We can't be sure until the interrogators are done with them.


With respect, what does their education have to do with anything? I know some folks think education is a cure for racism, but there are and always have been plenty of well-educated, but racist folks in this country.

Only to say that the suspects don't fit the typical profile of a church arsonist. Everything I've read and heard about this so far indicates these were just idiots that got excited about the sound of fire trucks driving by.

[west3man]

There's not any evidence currently to suggest that they knew anything about the churches they burned. We can't be sure until the interrogators are done with them. That's been my point. We don't know one way OR the other. Ruling out racism, at this point, is premature, imo.

Only to say that the suspects don't fit the typical profile of a church arsonist.But they're still church arsonists.
If you're saying that the fact that they don't fit the typical profile means that they don't have the typical motivations - that's possible, I guess.

Everything I've read and heard about this so far indicates these were just idiots that got excited about the sound of fire trucks driving by.Well, if nothing else, we can agree on the Idiocy Factor.

[The Punished]

These were teenage kids basically, 19-20 years old. The main thing that stands out to me was the lack of maturity. I just read in the Birmingham News this morning the Cloyd kid was upset about a friggin' speeding ticket.

I would rule out racism as a major factor in these burnings.

[Hoss]

Hey,
This was just a fun prank.

If you go by Rush Limbaugh's Abu Ghraib definition of prank.

[west3man]

"Prank" seems to have satisfied a lot of people. I'd need to hear the details of the "prank" to know that it qualified as one - to find out what the participants hoped to gain from the experience.

I guess I could steal a car and call it a prank, but unless I explain my intentions well, it's likely that I wanted a car, saw an opportunity, and didn't let legalities or morality get in my way.

These guys burned a church (at first). That's not as simple. Maybe they just wanted to see it burn, but that's not what I'd call a "prank."

[Spackling Compound]

Well, I'm just glad that they put their names and faces on TV. If they are out on bail, they are sure to face some vigilante justice from someone. We Southerners are serious about churches.
We Southerners are also linked in a tight good ol' boys network. My money is these boys get "community service" time and a talkin' to about respect and then go on to become doctors, lawyers and maybe even pres'dent.

Spoiled white boys...

[Solaris]

"Prank" seems to have satisfied a lot of people. I'd need to hear the details of the "prank" to know that it qualified as one - to find out what the participants hoped to gain from the experience.

I guess I could steal a car and call it a prank, but unless I explain my intentions well, it's likely that I wanted a car, saw an opportunity, and didn't let legalities or morality get in my way.

These guys burned a church (at first). That's not as simple. Maybe they just wanted to see it burn, but that's not what I'd call a "prank."

No more than stealing the cane of a blind person, and then carrying them to an area they don't know is a prank... and often, such a thing will accompany a headline that reads "Prank Gone Wrong" or "Prank Turned Deadly" if the blind person fell into a construction hole before the "pranksters" could get to him, and broke his neck.

As I said above, I think this kind of thing (unless they have the arson "bug", which is a different kettle of fish) is a "thumbing the nose at authority/expressing rebellion" thing. They fear to hit back or stand up to the authority figures in their lives whom they resent... so they find an object of reverence instead, and trash that. It's a desire to vent destructiveness... and the subsequent feeling of exhiliration when violating a societal taboo, as burning a church or desecrating a cemetary *is*. While I'm grateful that these young men didn't take things to the extreme of grabbing rifles and taking potshots at professors on campus, it's still something to be worried about, and NOT to be seen as simple "juvenile high-spiritedness gotten a bit out of hand."

Doing something like this gives the perpetrator feelings of power, of being in control... and likely, in an exhilirating fashion and subsequent release of whatever "happy" chemicals in the brain would relate to that. If you look at *why* someone would *want* to do it... I think it's some kind of repressed resentment of authority, and a feeling of lack of control in their own lives. These boys knew it was wrong. They did it *because* they knew it was wrong. With something like this, I think it's important to look at *what* was going on internally to motivate them to do it... because if those feelings and perceptions aren't countered with some good common sense, they might well move on to *harsher* expressions of anger and resentment, that do directly hurt or kill people... and/or to an addiction to the feeling/chemical reaction/rush they get from doing such things. They might move on up to rape, deliberately burning or bombing a place that they *know* has people in it, or even a shooting spree.

As my Dad might say, "You don't wait to correct whatever's wrong in a kid's head that leads them to shoplift a bag of candy for the first time. You do it THEN... NOT after they've been busted ten times for shoplifting as a teen or adult."

I'm not saying these guys are mentally ill. I'm saying that they've got some social issues, and issues with authority, that someone needs to teach them how to handle and how to redirect into positive work, not random destruction. And yes, part of that teaching ought to include jailtime, IMO. But jailtime alone isn't enough, because that by itself often backfires: rather than teaching them how wrong it was, it may just give them incentive to be more careful in committing similar or worse crimes in the future. Jailtime needs to be accompanied by some good solid investigation and counseling, IMO, if there's to be a chance of keeping them from doing further harm in the future.

I also think part of their sentence should include some mandatory, guard-supervised labor, in helping to rebuild the churches they burned. Let them see how much labor and cost is involved, from a SWEAT basis. And let them face the people whom they've deprived of their place of worship.

[Alex]

This combined with the kid who ran over people to oppose the united states middle east policy, has lead me to beleive my age group is comprised of the stupidest people humanity has to offer, and everyone between the ages of 26 and 14 should be shot in the face, so humanity can start over fresh.

[Solaris]

This combined with the kid who ran over people to oppose the united states middle east policy, has lead me to beleive my age group is comprised of the stupidest people humanity has to offer, and everyone between the ages of 26 and 14 should be shot in the face, so humanity can start over fresh.


TRUST ME: you're generation doesn't have a lock on stupidity.

[Alex]

TRUST ME: you're generation doesn't have a lock on stupidity.
What;s the average age of a sucide bomber? I bet it's in that age range....so it's not even cultural.
We are stupid. I'm considering lighting a homeless guy on fire right now, why? I DON'T KNOW! It seems funny.
But it seems like a good idea for some reason, i also want to call in a fake bomb threat to my state's capital building, and then shoot all the cops who show up, because i think it would be funny.
And i can't control it!

[Solaris]

What;s the average age of a sucide bomber? I bet it's in that age range....so it's not even cultural.
We are stupid. I'm considering lighting a homeless guy on fire right now, why? I DON'T KNOW! It seems funny.
But it seems like a good idea for some reason, i also want to call in a fake bomb threat to my state's capital building, and then shoot all the cops who show up, because i think it would be funny.
And i can't control it!


You obviously have a deepseated resentment for being forced to harbor an alien anal-probe. I suggest that you see The Chef immediately, so that he can sing you a love song and soothe you to sleep. Or something. However, under no circumstances should you talk with Cartman... he's addicted to alien anal probes.

[Alex]

You obviously have a deepseated resentment for being forced to harbor an alien anal-probe. I suggest that you see The Chef immediately, so that he can sing you a love song and soothe you to sleep. Or something. However, under no circumstances should you talk with Cartman... he's addicted to alien anal probes.
It could be, if there is an alien anal probe in my anus, i'd just as soon not know about it.

[Solaris]

It could be, if there is an alien anal probe in my anus, i'd just as soon not know about it.


*psst! Guys! don't tell Alex that his probe is visible from outer space*

:D

Sorry we've sidetracked the initial serious subject with classroom humor, folks.

[Forefinger]

We Southerners are also linked in a tight good ol' boys network. My money is these boys get "community service" time and a talkin' to about respect and then go on to become doctors, lawyers and maybe even pres'dent.

Spoiled white boys...
Lampooning again?

It will be interesting to find out what happens. I'm really hoping that they suffer severe beatdowns because of this.

[Spackling Compound]

Lampooning again?

It will be interesting to find out what happens. I'm really hoping that they suffer severe beatdowns because of this.
If you're a Southerner, you know this is no lampoon.

It happens. Will happen. Keep watching. None of these boys will serve any real prison time.

[Forefinger]

If you're a Southerner, you know this is no lampoon.

It happens. Will happen. Keep watching. None of these boys will serve any real prison time.
I think that they will all get prison sentences for this. I guess all we can do is keep watching.

[Solaris]

If you're a Southerner, you know this is no lampoon.

It happens. Will happen. Keep watching. None of these boys will serve any real prison time.


Sadly, sometimes this is very true. The Good Ol' Boys network is alive and kicking. I just hope that it doesn't get these guys off the hook.

[Spackling Compound]

Sadly, sometimes this is very true. The Good Ol' Boys network is alive and kicking. I just hope that it doesn't get these guys off the hook.
I live in a university town in the south.
Last year, a group of Frat rats went out to a graveyard and desecrated graves by knocking down headstones, 'tagging' messages on gravestones and destroying flowers and statuary.
They got caught, said it was all in fun and just a prank. Almost everyone of them are back in school after a week of community service work and listening to a speaker talk about respect.
The families of the dead are more of the poorer whites who have been here for years, they have to take care of the property damage themselves.

Just saying...

[Ray R.]

I live in a university town in the south.
Last year, a group of Frat rats went out to a graveyard and desecrated graves by knocking down headstones, 'tagging' messages on gravestones and destroying flowers and statuary.
They got caught, said it was all in fun and just a prank. Almost everyone of them are back in school after a week of community service work and listening to a speaker talk about respect.
The families of the dead are more of the poorer whites who have been here for years, they have to take care of the property damage themselves.

Just saying...

JUDGE: I'm going to apply the longstanding legal precedent of "Boys Will Be Boys." Now go paint Aunt Polly's fence so y'all learn a valuable lesson about taking pranks too far.


And it's not just the South, it's the old New England towns too taking care of the wayward youth of the landed gentry. I went to high school with some guys who gang-raped a girl who passed out, including with a pool cue, and because of their fathers (one was a councilman), there was suspended sentences and probation.

One of the thousands of reasons I keep skipping my high school reunions....the fucking animals I went to school with.

[Spackling Compound]

JUDGE: I'm going to apply the longstanding legal precedent of "Boys Will Be Boys." Now go paint Aunt Polly's fence so y'all learn a valuable lesson about taking pranks too far.


And it's not just the South, it's the old New England towns too taking care of the wayward youth of the landed gentry. I went to high school with some guys who gang-raped a girl who passed out, including with a pool cue, and because of their fathers (one was a councilman), there was suspended sentences and probation.

One of the thousands of reasons I keep skipping my high school reunions....the fucking animals I went to school with.
Yeah, remember that group of teens who went on a sex rampage and girls were literally in line to be gang raped by them?
Again, there was a time that was unpolitically correct but I think now, they'd be lauded as good examples of sexual freedom without any puritan hint of restratint.

[Ray R.]

Yeah, remember that group of teens who went on a sex rampage and girls were literally in line to be gang raped by them?
Again, there was a time that was unpolitically correct but I think now, they'd be lauded as good examples of sexual freedom without any puritan hint of restratint.

Well, but at least "abstinence pledges" have led to millions of God-fearing Southern high school girls to explore the wonderful and enriching world of anal sex, so as to "exploit the loophole" in the pledge.

"Hey Betty-Lou, my parents are gone this weekend. Come on over so I can exploit your loophole."

Who says Puritan hints of restraint do anything either.

[Spackling Compound]

Well, but at least "abstinence pledges" have led to millions of God-fearing Southern high school girls to explore the wonderful and enriching world of anal sex, so as to "exploit the loophole" in the pledge.

"Hey Betty-Lou, my parents are gone this weekend. Come on over so I can exploit your loophole."

Who says Puritan hints of restraint do anything either.
Oral sex, too.

I'm just saying that sometimes the exploited become less so due to the current climate of permissiveness.

[Ray R.]

Oral sex, too.

I'm just saying that sometimes the exploited become less so due to the current climate of permissiveness.

Well, I might quibble with you on that one.

"Climate of permissiveness" is kind of a broad brush. I'm raising two kids, and I'm sure as hell not buying "Porn Star" t-shirts or 6-inch skirts for my daughter. The parents have as much culpability as "society at large" for allowing permissiveness. I can only do the best job I can to make sure my daughter knows the difference between responsibility and irresponsibility and hope it takes. I'd call it a form of parental "risk management."

As to society, I'm not so sure the pendulum doesn't swing both ways, particularly in regards to sexuality. You close your eyes and pretend urges don't exist in hormonally-challenged young adults, and that prayer or scare tactics will "show them the way," I see that as potentially just as dangerous as laying out the facts and again, relying on 15 years of child-rearing....

[Adric]

Hmmm....maybe the person/people doing this just don't like Christianity. Though I don't condone such actions, there are a lot of reasons a person might lash out against the establishment of Christianity: its various edicts about ‘original sin’, all the guilt about sex, spilling your seed, immaculate mis-conception. The bible abounds with guilt inducing dictums. There is also the one true way part, we are right and you are wrong tone….and a devaluation of life on Earth as compared to some glorious afterlife.

I’m not a big fan, but burning churches is plain wrong. Maybe the person is acting out of some twisted guilt complex, which fuels anger and hostility.

Various reflections on the topic:

“It was Christianity, with it’s deep resentment of life at the bottom of its heart that first made something unclean of sexuality: It threw filth upon the origin, upon the presupposition of our lives”—Nietzsche

“Indeed what a dreary place Christianity has already made of the earth, where it has everywhere erected the crucifix as a symbol the earth is the place where the just man is tortured to death”------Nietzsche

“The body is the soul”-----------Nietzsche

[Forefinger]

I live in a university town in the south.
Last year, a group of Frat rats went out to a graveyard and desecrated graves by knocking down headstones, 'tagging' messages on gravestones and destroying flowers and statuary.
They got caught, said it was all in fun and just a prank. Almost everyone of them are back in school after a week of community service work and listening to a speaker talk about respect.
The families of the dead are more of the poorer whites who have been here for years, they have to take care of the property damage themselves.

Just saying...
Wow. That is just pathetic. I guess if I had first hand knowledge about something like this, I'd be skeptical as well.

I'm thinking that partially because of the national news attention that these Church arson cases got, these guys will get some real punishment. Or at least I hope they will...

If not, I would like to hear about their murders later.

[Michael P]

Well, all this slap-on-the-wrist stuff only applies if they're rich. If they're poor, they'll go to jail.

[Forefinger]

I was watching some news videos on Foxnews.com a few minutes ago. They were interviewing one of the three "suspect's" roommate. They brought up that it's rumored that at least one of them was satanist. The interviewer tried to press him on the issue, but the guy kept saying that he couldn't really explain the satanist beliefs to him.

[Spackling Compound]

and that prayer or scare tactics will "show them the way," I see that as potentially just as dangerous as laying out the facts and again, relying on 15 years of child-rearing....
Agreed.
Scare or prayer tactics as you say aren't effective.
Good parenting is. And we can debate all day long on that.
Suffice it to say, I think you "get it" by refusing to buy "Porn Star" shirts for your child.

And, thanks for mentioning that. I once thought I saw a shirt "Future Porn Star" in a mall window but maybe imagined it. You give me reason to believe my memory.

[Spackling Compound]

Well, all this slap-on-the-wrist stuff only applies if they're rich. If they're poor, they'll go to jail.
I'm thinking "rich".
Who else can afford to go to a University and major in theater? Rich kid.
Who else can have a SUV with specialized tires and still be under the age of 40? Rich kid.
Who else would commit a crime "for fun"? Rich kid.

They're not going to do any time. No boyfriend named "Rock" or doing the jailhouse ballroom dance.
Community service, facing the congregations with apologies and maybe a fine and they're back in theater classes.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I'm thinking that partially because of the national news attention that these Church arson cases got, these guys will get some real punishment. Or at least I hope they will...


Remember that forest service worker, the one who admitted to starting all those wildfires, with total costs in the millions, not to mention environmental damage and losses of homes? The ones she set so there'd be more work to do, and she'd thus get lots of overtime pay?

Other than being fired and losing her federal pension, all she got was probation.

Here's betting these assholes also get no significant penalty.

[Spackling Compound]

Remember that forest service worker, the one who admitted to starting all those wildfires, with total costs in the millions, not to mention environmental damage and losses of homes? The ones she set so there'd be more work to do, and she'd thus get lots of overtime pay?

Other than being fired and losing her federal pension, all she got was probation.

Here's betting these assholes also get no significant penalty.
Welcome back, Kramer.
And I agree with you on that.
If you've seen these lovable mop-topped white boys, they have "freedom" written all over them....

[Crimson Avenger]

I was watching some news videos on Foxnews.com a few minutes ago. They were interviewing one of the three "suspect's" roommate. They brought up that it's rumored that at least one of them was satanist. The interviewer tried to press him on the issue, but the guy kept saying that he couldn't really explain the satanist beliefs to him.

From The Birmingham News, Russell DeBusk told friends that Satanism was not about "worshipping the devil, but about the pursuit of knowledge."
Is that the Anton LaVey-type Satanism?

[Forefinger]

From The Birmingham News, Russell DeBusk told friends that Satanism was not about "worshipping the devil, but about the pursuit of knowledge."
Is that the Anton LaVey-type Satanism?
He wouldn't elaborate, but I'm guessing that they are trying to say that it's less about being Anti-God, but more about exploring the dark side of things.

[Spackling Compound]

From The Birmingham News, Russell DeBusk told friends that Satanism was not about "worshipping the devil, but about the pursuit of knowledge."
Is that the Anton LaVey-type Satanism?
I don't know. LaVey had this whole ritualized thing with blood and wine and candles so it's a little more than "pursuing knowledge".
I think we have a case of a room mate wanting to be in the papers.

The devil didn't make them do it, in my opinion.
Being spoiled, white, rich and free was a bigger factor.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I don't know. LaVey had this whole ritualized thing with blood and wine and candles so it's a little more than "pursuing knowledge".

LaVey was about showmanship and sucking money out of gullible fools and idiot celebrities. He was the Satanic equivalent of Scientology.

[Solaris]

JUDGE: I'm going to apply the longstanding legal precedent of "Boys Will Be Boys." Now go paint Aunt Polly's fence so y'all learn a valuable lesson about taking pranks too far.


And it's not just the South, it's the old New England towns too taking care of the wayward youth of the landed gentry. I went to high school with some guys who gang-raped a girl who passed out, including with a pool cue, and because of their fathers (one was a councilman), there was suspended sentences and probation.

One of the thousands of reasons I keep skipping my high school reunions....the fucking animals I went to school with.


Jeez, and I thought Spackle's story was gonna piss me off. It did, but this one pisses me off even more.

You raise a good point though, in that often it's the "well-to-do" offspring who get off on this kind of garbage.

Then again, if your story had happened in my hometown... it's very likely the girl's daddy and some of his friends would be *very* busy playing pool at one of their houses one night... coincidentally, the very same night those boys got their asses beaten to a bloody pulp.

Just sayin'.

[Solaris]

Yeah, remember that group of teens who went on a sex rampage and girls were literally in line to be gang raped by them?
Again, there was a time that was unpolitically correct but I think now, they'd be lauded as good examples of sexual freedom without any puritan hint of restratint.


The difference is, the group of girls "lined up."

The girl Ray referred to was *passed out*. No consent on her part.

[Solaris]

I'm thinking "rich".
Who else can afford to go to a University and major in theater? Rich kid.
Who else can have a SUV with specialized tires and still be under the age of 40? Rich kid.
Who else would commit a crime "for fun"? Rich kid.

They're not going to do any time. No boyfriend named "Rock" or doing the jailhouse ballroom dance.
Community service, facing the congregations with apologies and maybe a fine and they're back in theater classes.


My daughter started out as a theatre major... and neither she, nor we, are rich. Don't try to read too much into the kids' majors, because it's got slap-all to do with what they did. They could've been poli-sci majors, and it wouldn't make a farthing's difference.

As for what kid can afford the tricked out SUV, etc., well, aside from rich kids, there's always drug dealers. Maybe the kid was dealing drugs. You never know.

[Solaris]

LaVey was about showmanship and sucking money out of gullible fools and idiot celebrities. He was the Satanic equivalent of Scientology.


A modern-day Aleister Crowley, to be honest. Though I don't know if he drugged followers and did some of the other nastier things that Crowley did. But yep, both men were about "fleecing the marks."

And Hi, Jeffrey! Good to see you back. :)

[Spackling Compound]

My daughter started out as a theatre major... and neither she, nor we, are rich. Don't try to read too much into the kids' majors, because it's got slap-all to do with what they did. They could've been poli-sci majors, and it wouldn't make a farthing's difference.

As for what kid can afford the tricked out SUV, etc., well, aside from rich kids, there's always drug dealers. Maybe the kid was dealing drugs. You never know.
What did you daughter end up in?
And by rich, I mean "able to afford a University education for a major in theater". Poor people, genuinely poor people who would get put under the jail for such an offense as burning churches, are usually not going to college and if so, they are working on a trade that will guarantee money.
Theatre? A dalliance of the rich or the talented.

[Ray R.]

Jeez, and I thought Spackle's story was gonna piss me off. It did, but this one pisses me off even more.

You raise a good point though, in that often it's the "well-to-do" offspring who get off on this kind of garbage.

Then again, if your story had happened in my hometown... it's very likely the girl's daddy and some of his friends would be *very* busy playing pool at one of their houses one night... coincidentally, the very same night those boys got their asses beaten to a bloody pulp.

Just sayin'.

Her father was a first-generation Hungarian immigrant, so his standing with the third-generation successful Irish and Italians who had been running my little factory town since the forties was nil. Murder was in his eyes, though, after they basically walked, at least the way I hear it.

I personally wanted to fuck them up, particularly because I played high school football and baseball with half of them, but also because the girl just wanted to fit in socially as a relative newcomer in town, and they used her and abused her in a vicious and heartless way. Part and parcel of the jockocracy that existed hand-in-hand with fervent anti-intellectualism. I'm sure those douchebags are sitting on the same bar stools they've occupied for years patting themselves on the back that they got away with it.

Tom Wolfe said "you can't go home again." I never want to.

[Solaris]

What did you daughter end up in?
And by rich, I mean "able to afford a University education for a major in theater". Poor people, genuinely poor people who would get put under the jail for such an offense as burning churches, are usually not going to college and if so, they are working on a trade that will guarantee money.
Theatre? A dalliance of the rich or the talented.


Heh. Here we go.

She dropped out of school after she failed to correct a registrations snafu in a timely fashion---basically, they registered her, then somehow "lost" her registration in the system... and it was a summer course, so she took too long to get it fixed.

She moved to another city, working for a Bank. Around Christmas, she moved back. She's just landed a job at the Atlanta Aquarium (part time) and is also pursuing other part time work. She says she wants to go back, and change her major to computer graphic design. I don't see that happening, because most of her jobs and her extracurricular activities (i.e. improv, radio theatre company---both non-paying) have been centered around acting and/or singing.

I think that, sooner or later, she's gonna head off to NYC or LA and put in some serious attempts at an acting career. But that's just me, what do I know? ;) (She *is* a good, and talented, performer, btw.)

She's got the bug... she just hasn't admitted to herself yet how *bad* she's got it.

[Solaris]

Her father was a first-generation Hungarian immigrant, so his standing with the third-generation successful Irish and Italians who had been running my little factory town since the forties was nil. Murder was in his eyes, though, after they basically walked, at least the way I hear it.

I personally wanted to fuck them up, particularly because I played high school football and baseball with half of them, but also because the girl just wanted to fit in socially as a relative newcomer in town, and they used her and abused her in a vicious and heartless way. Part and parcel of the jockocracy that existed hand-in-hand with fervent anti-intellectualism. I'm sure those douchebags are sitting on the same bar stools they've occupied for years patting themselves on the back that they got away with it.

Tom Wolfe said "you can't go home again." I never want to.


I wouldn't want to, either... because my first impulse would be to walk up to them and punch them in the face... and I don't need their daddies (or them) putting *me* in jail for assault.

[Expletive Deleted]

Theatre? A dalliance of the rich or the talented.To be fair, there is such a thing as "technical theatre." An MA in that'll get you a pretty decent job.

Not that most theatre majors pursue that specialty, of course. I'm just sayin'.

[Spackling Compound]

To be fair, there is such a thing as "technical theatre." An MA in that'll get you a pretty decent job.

Not that most theatre majors pursue that specialty, of course. I'm just sayin'.
Oh, I was talking about "DRAMA" and "THEATRE" as in people wanting to make it "big" as actors or just..y'know...act until they graduate, take the LSAT and then after a couple years, take a position as partner in Dad's golf buddies Law Firm.

I've had friends major and graduate in music industry related fields. Some in art industry fields. They've done well.
My friends who went to school to become artists? Rich to begin with and one is running his father's oil business and doing ironwork on the side while the other is an investment banker, real estate lawyer but can draw really, really well.

[Ray R.]

I wouldn't want to, either... because my first impulse would be to walk up to them and punch them in the face... and I don't need their daddies (or them) putting *me* in jail for assault.

Personally, my weapon of choice would be an aluminum baseball bat. Harder to punch back with a broken arm or kneecap.

Being a Buddhist I believe in karma. And there's no amount of good deeds that will ever even out their karmic balance sheets. So, their souls are going to rot from the inside out.

Ugh. I need a cigarette right now....

[Crimson Avenger]

My daughter started out as a theatre major... and neither she, nor we, are rich. Don't try to read too much into the kids' majors, because it's got slap-all to do with what they did. They could've been poli-sci majors, and it wouldn't make a farthing's difference.

As for what kid can afford the tricked out SUV, etc., well, aside from rich kids, there's always drug dealers. Maybe the kid was dealing drugs. You never know.

Ben Moseley's family lives in a middle class subdivision not far from me at all, while Russell DeBusk's family has a house in a VERY nice area of Hoover. Matthew Cloyd's dad is a doctor and I believe they live in an upper-income level of Pelham.

They weren't starving artists, for sure. DeBusk was to take the lead role in an independent movie called "Work." I couldn't find him on the IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0477138/) listing for the film.

[Spackling Compound]

Ben Moseley's family lives in a middle class subdivision not far from me at all, while Russell DeBusk's family has a house in a VERY nice area of Hoover. Matthew Cloyd's dad is a doctor and I believe they live in an upper-income level of Pelham.

They weren't starving artists, for sure.
Not a surprise there.
Thanks, CA for the clarification.

I'm sure you'll see the boys "celebrating" their victory soon.

[Ray R.]

Not a surprise there.
Thanks, CA for the clarification.

I'm sure you'll see the boys "celebrating" their victory soon.

Here's a plea bargain I'd allow. You either do hard time or burn your parents' houses down to the ground. And your dad's doctor's office, and anything of value you own. Watch it burn to ashes. And no insurance, sorry.

[Spackling Compound]

Here's a plea bargain I'd allow. You either do hard time or burn your parents' houses down to the ground. And your dad's doctor's office, and anything of value you own. Watch it burn to ashes. And no insurance, sorry.

Do you think these kids honor their parents that much? Lots of credit there.

[Ray R.]

Do you think these kids honor their parents that much? Lots of credit there.

Screw the college kids, let the parents suffer for giving these little assholes such a sense of entitlement that they'd burn a church for fun.

Completely wipe them out financially, burn it all to the ground, and check in six months to see if the parenting approaches change at all.

[Spackling Compound]

Screw the college kids, let the parents suffer for giving these little assholes such a sense of entitlement that they'd burn a church for fun.

Completely wipe them out financially, burn it all to the ground, and check in six months to see if the parenting approaches change at all.
Hehe.
I would think that the kids have to live in the community where the Church burned. They can only live on the pastor's salary without any other income and cannot go outside a 5 square mile radius for a year.

That will drive them absolutley bats...

[Adric]

I don't think theatre majors are any richer than any other majors....college costs a lot of money these days, period. I would imagint that a lot of business majors come from much more money...especially ones wanting to take part in 'the family firm'. People often major in the arts, in theatre, in English for the meaning they get out of it, not the money they make. I majored in English, writing emphasis. I spent many years as a cook, a waiter, then I did wine lists for 5 yeras. Now I work in a NASA library. I was not 'rich'; there are many years I made less than $15,000......and I knew a lot of theatre majors who took out loans, did not have 'rich' families, but wanted to pursue something they were passionate about.

Just some thoughts

Adric

[Spackling Compound]

I don't think theatre majors are any richer than any other majors....college costs a lot of money these days, period. I would imagint that a lot of business majors come from much more money...especially ones wanting to take part in 'the family firm'. People often major in the arts, in theatre, in English for the meaning they get out of it, not the money they make. I majored in English, writing emphasis. I spent many years as a cook, a waiter, then I did wine lists for 5 yeras. Now I work in a NASA library. I was not 'rich'; there are many years I made less than $15,000......and I knew a lot of theatre majors who took out loans, did not have 'rich' families, but wanted to pursue something they were passionate about.

Just some thoughts

Adric
True, true.
It seems I was right about those boys, however.
There is sometime the "poor" kid who goes to college to study Japanese printmaking or to learn more about Russian poets of the 18th century because they are passionate about the subject but usually, even in your case, anyone who goes to college is seen to be in an income level that can "afford" college.

[Spackling Compound]

Here are the four church burners. The first three are the preppies with the fashionable MCR hairdos and designer tshirts. The fat guy who looks like Jr. Samples? He will probably get the biggest sentence...
http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=alabama+church+burnings&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-news-t&c=news_photos

[Nate C.]

If you're a Southerner, you know this is no lampoon.

It happens. Will happen. Keep watching. None of these boys will serve any real prison time.

You are grossly misrepresenting the South.

[Spackling Compound]

You are grossly misrepresenting the South.

It ain't me, it ain't me. I ain't the fortunate one.
It ain't me, it ain't me. I ain't no Senators suhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-un.

Been to Ole Miss lately,Nate?
Lemme show you how the network "works".

[Nate C.]

It ain't me, it ain't me. I ain't the fortunate one.
It ain't me, it ain't me. I ain't no Senators suhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-un.

Been to Ole Miss lately,Nate?
Lemme show you how the network "works".

I was there a few years ago.

Last time I checked, Oxford wasn't "The South".

Been outside Ole Miss lately, Spack? Oxford is an inbred miasma of ninteenth century pomposity still masquerading as genteelity.

You misrepresented the South to use hyperbole to make your point. The onus is on you.

You, you, you, you, yes it's you.

[Spackling Compound]

Been outside Ole Miss lately, Spack? Oxford is an inbred miasma of ninteenth century pomposity still masquerading as genteelity.

You misrepresented the South to use hyperbole to make your point. The onus is on you.


You tell me then what is "hyperbole" in my statement?
I've been here for 40 years. I've lived in the Delta, Jackson, Arkansas and now up in the Northeast.
Everywhere I've been, the network has worked.

Also, the sentence I highlighted in red sort of makes a joke of the next one in your quote...

[Nate C.]

You tell me then what is "hyperbole" in my statement?
I've been here for 40 years. I've lived in the Delta, Jackson, Arkansas and now up in the Northeast.
Everywhere I've been, the network has worked.

Also, the sentence I highlighted in red sort of makes a joke of the next one in your quote...

Your anectdotal storytelling doesn't equate to your hyperbole.

You misrepresented "The South".

And of course I used hyperbole to respond. I'll cop to that.

Still doesn't absolve you.

You admitting the network works in the Northeast proves my point. Is there a Good-ol-boy network in place? Certainly. Is it indicative of the South? Not at all.

[Ed Cunard]

You admitting the network works in the Northeast proves my point. Is there a Good-ol-boy network in place? Certainly. Is it indicative of the South? Not at all.

You're missing the point, Nate. The South has a "good ol' boy" network.

The North version doesn't drop the "d" for the apostrophe.

[Solaris]

Here's a plea bargain I'd allow. You either do hard time or burn your parents' houses down to the ground. And your dad's doctor's office, and anything of value you own. Watch it burn to ashes. And no insurance, sorry.

I'd rather force them, under guard and at gunpoint, to help rebuild the churches from scratch---from unloading supplies, to sweating in the hot sun, etc. Bring them from jail, every day, with a guard, and make them help rebuild every church. Also, have the congregations (ask the ministers to get volunteers for this) to bring their kids onsite of the building, and have the kids, old people, etc., go up to these guys, look them in the face, and ask "why did you burn down our church, mister?"

By the time they're done rebuilding nine churches, daily... they'll have served some time (at night), AND put something of themselves into fixing what they destroyed, AND have realized how much sweat, effort, time, and money goes into *building* something, AND have had to confront face-to-face the people they hurt. Heck, for that matter, it even gives the various congregations and ministers a chance to "work" on the boys themselves. They might even get converted (that ought to appeal to at least some of the ministers).

Further, for a break in their schedules, the boys ought to be made to go along (again, with a guard on them) to help out in any philantrophic activities the churches do where it would be appropriate... like, helping to deliver supplies and meals to housebound elderly, delivering stuff to poor familes with kids, etc. Show them that the churches aren't just about dressing up and showing up once a week in a pretty building to hear someone throw out stuff on God and say "amen."

Maybe I should email this to the paper... I think I'll try.

[Michael P]

Jeez, and I thought Spackle's story was gonna piss me off. It did, but this one pisses me off even more.

You raise a good point though, in that often it's the "well-to-do" offspring who get off on this kind of garbage.

Then again, if your story had happened in my hometown... it's very likely the girl's daddy and some of his friends would be *very* busy playing pool at one of their houses one night... coincidentally, the very same night those boys got their asses beaten to a bloody pulp.

Just sayin'.
Which is the flip-side to the "good ol' boy" network, in any part of the country. Angry people in a small town have ways of making sure offenders pay for their crimes, one way or another.

[Ray R.]

I'd rather force them, under guard and at gunpoint, to help rebuild the churches from scratch---from unloading supplies, to sweating in the hot sun, etc. Bring them from jail, every day, with a guard, and make them help rebuild every church. Also, have the congregations (ask the ministers to get volunteers for this) to bring their kids onsite of the building, and have the kids, old people, etc., go up to these guys, look them in the face, and ask "why did you burn down our church, mister?"

By the time they're done rebuilding nine churches, daily... they'll have served some time (at night), AND put something of themselves into fixing what they destroyed, AND have realized how much sweat, effort, time, and money goes into *building* something, AND have had to confront face-to-face the people they hurt. Heck, for that matter, it even gives the various congregations and ministers a chance to "work" on the boys themselves. They might even get converted (that ought to appeal to at least some of the ministers).

Further, for a break in their schedules, the boys ought to be made to go along (again, with a guard on them) to help out in any philantrophic activities the churches do where it would be appropriate... like, helping to deliver supplies and meals to housebound elderly, delivering stuff to poor familes with kids, etc. Show them that the churches aren't just about dressing up and showing up once a week in a pretty building to hear someone throw out stuff on God and say "amen."

Maybe I should email this to the paper... I think I'll try.

That's smart and that's fair and that's justice.

Do e-mail the paper, and the district attorney too.

Stop impressing me so much, Chris, I'm developing a crush..... ;)

[phoenixrising]

So...where did I miss that these boys are rich? Or is this just the usual branding of "Oh, young white people did it - they must be rich little bastards."

They certainly don't sound rich to me. Merely being in college doesn't make you rich.

Either way, I think they'll be prosecuted - there's too much publicity on these crimes for any other outcome.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Either way, I think they'll be prosecuted - there's too much publicity on these crimes for any other outcome.

I think they'll be prosecuted. I just don't think they'll get much of a sentence; they'll enter a guilty plea and get some piddly sentence. I doubt they'll get a sencence truly in line with as serious a crime as arson.

Remember, that stuff with the forest service worker setting the fires was also covered heavily - as were the fires themselves - and she got off with a slap on the wrist.

[phoenixrising]

I think they'll be prosecuted. I just don't think they'll get much of a sentence; they'll enter a guilty plea and get some piddly sentence. I doubt they'll get a sencence truly in line with as serious a crime as arson.

That may be true. But I think its pretty simplistic and stereotypical to say, "Oh, I bet they're rich - so they'll get off."

[Solaris]

Can anyone help me in finding an email contact for the District Attorney's in the Counties? (I know one is Sumter County). I'm not having much luck locating it on the web. I'm also trying to find contact info for the pastors of the churches, or the churches themselves, with no real luck. (Most are apparently small churches, with no website.)

My father in law (lives in Gadsden, AL) says he'll search tonight for me as well, and email me his results, but all help is appreciated. I really want to send the ideas to some of the people involved, because I think with enough public support for it, the judge may well including stuff like that in the sentencing. Many judges do.

BTW---dad in law said that they had a "copycat" crime in their county. A couple of high school students, already caught. No real damage from their attempt---they tried a molotov cocktail thrown at a church; minor damage to the siding; mainly only the alcohol/fuel burned.

[Solaris]

Woot! With umpteen phone calls, I've managed to track down the D.A.'s office and get an email address. Here's hoping. *crosses fingers*

[Crimson Avenger]

Can anyone help me in finding an email contact for the District Attorney's in the Counties? (I know one is Sumter County). I'm not having much luck locating it on the web. I'm also trying to find contact info for the pastors of the churches, or the churches themselves, with no real luck. (Most are apparently small churches, with no website.)

My father in law (lives in Gadsden, AL) says he'll search tonight for me as well, and email me his results, but all help is appreciated. I really want to send the ideas to some of the people involved, because I think with enough public support for it, the judge may well including stuff like that in the sentencing. Many judges do.

BTW---dad in law said that they had a "copycat" crime in their county. A couple of high school students, already caught. No real damage from their attempt---they tried a molotov cocktail thrown at a church; minor damage to the siding; mainly only the alcohol/fuel burned.

I haven't been able to locate email for the Shelby County DA, but they do have a website here. (http://www.shelbycountyalabama.com/Other_elected_officials.shtm)

And here (http://info.alabama.gov/directory_county.aspx) is a list of Alabama county websites. Not all counties have them, and Bibb's webpage doesn't look like it's been updated since Y2K. :eek:

Pickens County, where one of the fires took place, does not have a website. Greene County (http://greenecountyalabama.com/community.htm#gov) does have a website, but it has no contact info for the DA office.

The suspects are to appear in Federal court today at 3 PM, and lawyers for two of them are expected to request that their clients be freed on bond.

[Solaris]

Thanks, CA!

I emailed the DA in Sumter County, and hope it does some good. I've spent a good amount of time today in trying to locate him, and the ministers mentioned in the article, both on the web and via phone searching. He's the only one I got, and I hope he'll pass it on, because I've got to get going on some other stuff now.

At any rate, I'm happy that I did *something* that might help in this situation. Certainly, if they're found guilty and the judge *does* opt for this kind of sentence, I think that aside from the obvious benefits to the churches and in educating the young men, it *also* has the benefit of meeting the Community's needs for, and expectation of, Justice.

I just hope they take it and run with it, over there.

[Crimson Avenger]

You are most welcome, Solaris! :)

And for what it's worth, I like your sentencing idea as well. That was awesome.

[Spackling Compound]

So...where did I miss that these boys are rich? Or is this just the usual branding of "Oh, young white people did it - they must be rich little bastards."

They certainly don't sound rich to me. Merely being in college doesn't make you rich.

Either way, I think they'll be prosecuted - there's too much publicity on these crimes for any other outcome.
I think Crimson Avenger already mentioned the socio-economic backgrounds of each. He seems to know of them.

From the Associated Press:
Cloyd is the son of a doctor, and DeBusk attended college on a theater scholarship after being voted "most dramatic" by his high school classmates in 2004. Moseley was president of his high school's student council, and his father is an elected constable.
http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ/MGArticle/WSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1137834639084

[Spackling Compound]

Thanks, CA!

I emailed the DA in Sumter County, and hope it does some good. I've spent a good amount of time today in trying to locate him, and the ministers mentioned in the article, both on the web and via phone searching. He's the only one I got, and I hope he'll pass it on, because I've got to get going on some other stuff now.

At any rate, I'm happy that I did *something* that might help in this situation. Certainly, if they're found guilty and the judge *does* opt for this kind of sentence, I think that aside from the obvious benefits to the churches and in educating the young men, it *also* has the benefit of meeting the Community's needs for, and expectation of, Justice.

I just hope they take it and run with it, over there.
Cool..really cool.

[Solaris]

Here are the four church burners. The first three are the preppies with the fashionable MCR hairdos and designer tshirts. The fat guy who looks like Jr. Samples? He will probably get the biggest sentence...
http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=alabama+church+burnings&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-news-t&c=news_photos


I think the latter one may well be one of the copycats I mentioned, that occured in Etowah County.

BTW, does anyone else thing that the guy in pic 3 looks like a slightly-plump Steven Tyler?

[Solaris]

That's smart and that's fair and that's justice.

Do e-mail the paper, and the district attorney too.

Stop impressing me so much, Chris, I'm developing a crush..... ;)

*bats eyelashes*

Oh?

;) :D

[Spackling Compound]

I think the latter one may well be one of the copycats I mentioned, that occured in Etowah County.

BTW, does anyone else thing that the guy in pic 3 looks like a slightly-plump Steven Tyler?

The last guy was a "copycat" but he may also be the "real deal" where the others were bored rich kids out for kicks.

Not to say "all bored rich kids" do that sort of thing.

[Solaris]

You are most welcome, Solaris! :)

And for what it's worth, I like your sentencing idea as well. That was awesome.


Thank you. And at the risk of sounding ... er... whatever the word would be (I'm brainfarting and a bit brain tired by now)... it's just good old "country common sense," the same kind of thing my dad and mom (especially dad) made me do, growing up, in terms of "taking responsibility for what you did wrong."

[phoenixrising]

I think Crimson Avenger already mentioned the socio-economic backgrounds of each. He seems to know of them.

From the Associated Press:
Cloyd is the son of a doctor, and DeBusk attended college on a theater scholarship after being voted "most dramatic" by his high school classmates in 2004. Moseley was president of his high school's student council, and his father is an elected constable.
http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ/MGArticle/WSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1137834639084

I don't get it. Not all doctors are rich, nor are small-town elected officials. Nor are college students.

I am always quite wary of socioeconomic labeling based on assumption - there seems to be a lot of people (particularly uneducated people) who think all college kids =spoiled rich kids.

[Spackling Compound]

I don't get it. Not all doctors are rich, nor are small-town elected officials. Nor are college students.

I am always quite wary of socioeconomic labeling based on assumption - there seems to be a lot of people (particularly uneducated people) who think all college kids =spoiled rich kids.

Not at all. The assumption I made (stereotyping, profiling,whatever) was based on these kids were just out for kicks.
It just fit that they'd be rich. Or at least 2/3 of them coming from money. And if not money, a doctor and elected official may carry more clout than the 'tater farmer or the town paper delivery boy.

There are serious college students as well. They just don't burn church houses down for fun.
The tip off for me was the size of their playground...

[phoenixrising]

It just fit that they'd be rich. Or at least 2/3 of them coming from money. And if not money, a doctor and elected official may carry more clout than the 'tater farmer or the town paper delivery boy.

So...poor people don't commit crimes for fun?

Welcome to Milwaukee, where mobs of teenagers have beaten motorists in the streets, raped elderly women and beaten homeless men to death - all of them poor or middle class, all of them bored as shit.

If nothing else, I'd say its a testament to an utter lack of values (and brains)than income.

(Note: I'm not sticking up for them or anything, but I feel as if maybe we're missing the point blaming their parents' income as some reason for it.)

[Nate C.]

Hey Spack,

I just wanted to take a second and publicly apologize for the name calling and personal attack this afternoon.

I still think you're reaching; I still think you're condescending when someone disagrees with you, but that doesn't give me the right to sling mud.

mea culpa,

Nate.